BS: how to pronounce Plantagenet & more

Subject: BS: how to pronounce Plantagenet & more
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 09:00 PM

I have a friend of a friend, and she's going to recite a poem by the modern Welsh poet, Derek Walcott at the upcoming Welsh National in a few days. (Derek Walcott was a Nobel-prize winning poet. His work should be well-known, at least to some.)

The FOAF says that the poem has this line: 'a plump raven, Plantaganet, unfurls its heraldic caw.'

She has found the name of the former royals in the dictionary, but that word is different by one letter: Plantagenet.

So, what do you think? It is a typo? A word play? In the final analysis, how should she pronounce the word at the Eisteddfod (sp)in Chicago?

I told my friend that this sounds like a good question for the Mudcat.

Subject: RE: BS: how to pronounce Plantagenet & more
From: Rapparee
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 09:10 PM

I'd pronounce it "twodoor".

I've always heard it pronounced "plan-ta-jen-et".

Subject: RE: BS: how to pronounce Plantagenet & more
From: Rowan
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 09:13 PM

With the stress on the second syllable and both "a"s flattened.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: how to pronounce Plantagenet & more
From: John O'L
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 10:23 PM

Flattened? I'd have said sharpened, as in "ant".

Soft g as Rapaire said.

Subject: RE: BS: how to pronounce Plantagenet & more
From: bobad
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 10:43 PM

Audio pronunciation

Subject: RE: BS: how to pronounce Plantagenet & more
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 04:28 AM

It is believed that the name Plantagenet was derived from the habit of wearing a sprig of Broom in the hat.
The Latin name for the Broom is Genista, and it is suggested that the Plantagenet name is a corruption of Planta Genista.

JM

Subject: RE: BS: how to pronounce Plantagenet & more
From: Monique
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 05:58 AM

"Genêt" is French for "broom" This is what French Wiki says about it:

La légende raconte que Geoffroy V, dit le Bel, comte d'Anjou et du Maine, chevauchait dans une Lande proche du Mans, lorsqu'il aperçut une licorne à tête de femme et vêtue d'un manteau d'or au milieu d'un champ de genêts. Bouleversé par cette apparition, Il choisit de faire de cette plante son emblème et d'en planter sur ses terres, d'où l'origine du surnom de "Plantegenêt" déformé par la suite en "Plantagenêt ".

= literally= more or less: "the legend goes that Geoffrey V (the Hansdome) earl of Anjou and Maine, was riding in a moor near the town of Le Mans when he saw a unicorn provided of a woman's head and dressed with a gold cloak in a field of broom. Upset by this apparition, he decided to have this plant as his emblem and to plant some on his lands, hence the origin of the nickname "Plantegenêt" ( plants broom) later distorted in "Plantagenêt".

Subject: RE: BS: how to pronounce Plantagenet & more
From: Lox
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 06:13 AM

Bit of thread creep, a documentary by Tony Robinson of Blackadder and time team fame showed that the plantagenet line did carry on after the death of Richard th 3rd, and he managed to trace it to a living descendant who lives in the outback of Australia with his family.

Basically, he found the rightful heir to the English throne and one of his sons is called Jet.

Prince Jet.

It has a nice ring to it ...

Anyway, he went to see them and told them. They were happy to hear the news, but happier to remain in the outback than return to cold rainy blighty.

So you can keep your sax-coburgs ... er ... windsors I mean.

Subject: RE: BS: how to pronounce Plantagenet & more
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 09:05 AM

Thanks, everyone. I shall pass on the word.

Subject: RE: BS: how to pronounce Plantagenet & more
From: greg stephens
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 09:53 AM

The current lot are descended from Plantagenets too, Lox. And from Cerdic of Wessex for that matter, never mind the Norman invaders.

Subject: RE: BS: how to pronounce Plantagenet & more
From: Alice
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 11:12 AM

I am a direct descendant of Anne Plantagenet, b. 1439, daughter of Richard Plantagenet b 1411, son of Richard Prince of England b. 1376, directly descended from Geofrey V Plantagenet, b. 1113, Anjou, France.

Subject: RE: BS: how to pronounce Plantagenet & more
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 11:19 AM

On my Father's side, I can trace my family back as far as the Suez Crisis.

JM ;)

Subject: RE: BS: how to pronounce Plantagenet & more
From: Darowyn
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 12:48 PM

The Plantagenets a bunch of upstarts just as much as the Saxe Coburg Gothas (alias Windsors)
The true royal line, as any conspiracy theorist should know, is the Merovingians.
They had long hair and were direct descendents of Jesus, according to a number of well publicised "secrets that will shake the world" books.
The rightful King of the World is probably Clive Sinclair- of ZX81 fame.
(If only he had grown his hair- we could have sorted it all out!)
Cheers
Dave

Subject: RE: BS: how to pronounce Plantagenet & more
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 01:49 PM

I can't see how the variant spelling (or mispelling) would require any adjustment of pronunciation.

Subject: RE: BS: how to pronounce Plantagenet & more
From: Master Baiter
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 01:59 PM

I seem to have descended from a family of jack-offs.

Who said I can't laugh at myself?

Subject: RE: BS: how to pronounce Plantagenet & more
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 02:31 PM

You're on your own on that one pal.

Subject: RE: BS: how to pronounce Plantagenet & more
From: bubblyrat
Date: 28 Aug 08 - 11:05 AM

Was Cerdic of Wessex related to Cedric of Wessex ??

Subject: RE: BS: how to pronounce Plantagenet & more
From: greg stephens
Date: 28 Aug 08 - 12:44 PM

Cerdic was the first Anglo-Saxon king of Wesex, and rather oddly had a Celtic name. Cedric, I don't know...though maybe the same guy by metathesis?

Subject: RE: BS: how to pronounce Plantagenet & more
From: Noreen
Date: 28 Aug 08 - 01:07 PM

Derek Walcott spelled the word in the normally accepted way- Plantagenet.
Use this link walcott to search for the phrase within the book.

So as you originally supposed, the FOAF(?) is responsible for the error/typo which troubled you.

Subject: RE: BS: how to pronounce Plantagenet & more
From: Geoff Wallis
Date: 28 Aug 08 - 04:28 PM

I'm puzzled. Far from being a 'modern welsh poet' Derek Walcott's from St. Lucia.

Subject: RE: BS: how to pronounce Plantagenet & more
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 28 Aug 08 - 04:30 PM

And a wonderful poet too

Subject: RE: BS: how to pronounce Plantagenet & more
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 28 Aug 08 - 06:14 PM

The only direct descendants of Richard the third live in australia.

"Documents recently uncovered by Dr Mike Jones in Rouen cathedral prove that Edward IV, born in 1442, was not a legitimate heir to the throne. His mother had a fling with an English archer, while his royal 'father', the Duke of York was away on a long military campaign."

So elizabeth, being descended of edward IV, is not a rightful heir to the throne.

"The royal blood line descends from Edward IV's brother, George. Following this Plantagenet line would have given us a Margaret I, and for example a Henry X and until recently a Barbara I. So it has come to pass that the legitimate, if uncrowned, king of England is currently Michael Hastings-Plantagenet. Tony Robinson found King Michael alive and well and living like an ordinary Aussie bloke with his family in New South Wales. King Michael loves Australia so much that he voted for a republic in their referendum!"

the above quotes come, in an admittedly partisan fashion, from a republican website, but I have included them as they have saved me the bother of synopsising the whole thing on my own.

For the definitive program outline, click here.

Subject: RE: BS: how to pronounce Plantagenet & more
From: John O'L
Date: 28 Aug 08 - 07:20 PM

The true royal line, as any conspiracy theorist should know, is the Merovingians.
They had long hair and were direct descendents of Jesus

There is a school of thought which suggests that Merovech was the product of a dalliance between his mother and a bistea Neptuni, or horned sea-god, but "Plantagenet" is still the same regardless.

Subject: RE: BS: how to pronounce Plantagenet & more
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 08:55 AM

Thank you, Noreen, for the detail about the typo and for the link.

Subject: RE: BS: how to pronounce Plantagenet & more
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 09:00 AM

Geoff, I see that you are right. Reading further about Walcott, I see no Welsh connection. The poem has to do with Wales, at least briefly.

As I said, this is just a quick inquiry for a friend of a friend.

Subject: RE: BS: how to pronounce Plantagenet & more
From: GUEST,Wayne
Date: 22 Jul 09 - 12:05 AM

There are hundreds of direct descendents of the Plantagenets.My geneology through the Terrell bloodline ties into Eleanor Montague who's bloodline ties into being a direct descendent of King Edward I. The Montague line changes to Montacute.Montacute married Countess Joan, daughter of Edmund, son of King Edward.

Subject: RE: BS: how to pronounce Plantagenet & more
From: Slag
Date: 22 Jul 09 - 01:38 AM

Greetings "cousin" Alice and others. I have several lines back to royalty and am eligible to become a member of the Royal Bastards society! Doesn't that just thrill your souls? I won't bore you with the particulars.

I learned Plantagenet as plan-tagz-uh-nay'. Perhaps the Welsh and others have a particular pronunciation in mind, appropriate for the Norman invaders. And the word "gannet" comes to mind also, a sea bird that makes a pretty obnoxious squawk when alarmed. In poetry the references and associations can run far afield at times, so ... good luck!

Subject: RE: BS: how to pronounce Plantagenet & more
From: GUEST,California Kid
Date: 02 Nov 09 - 04:34 PM

Me too. Mine is through the last name Wells though. John Welles hooked up with this hot babe named Cicely Plantagenet who was the daughter of Edward.

Subject: RE: BS: how to pronounce Plantagenet & more
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 02 Nov 09 - 05:36 PM

I gotcha all! I'm a descendant of a sailor/zookeeper (if only for a short time) named Noah!

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: how to pronounce Plantagenet & more
From: artbrooks
Date: 02 Nov 09 - 05:54 PM

Hey, Dave - wasn't there a lady named Lucy in Africa a while back?

Subject: RE: BS: how to pronounce Plantagenet & more
From: Paul Burke
Date: 03 Nov 09 - 04:57 PM

Modern French pronumciation, particularly the dropping of word- end consonants, didn't develop till the 18th century. For Mediaeval and earlier French, pronounce all the letters writ down. I like "plant a gannet" though, revenge for all those stolen seaside fish-and-chips.