can accompanists lift the music

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Oct 12 - 03:22 PM

Nic Jones was more than capable of singing unaccompanied. He had/has more "fortes" than you give him credit for.

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Oct 12 - 03:24 PM

well DAVY GRAHAM got the idea of dagad from listening to an instrument caled the "!ud", in morrocco, he showed the tuning to carthy, the idea of cgcgcd that jones use for that tune, is similiar to dadgad, and derived from two sOurces,one was carthy using dadgad and the other 5 string banjo tuning double c, Gcgcd.
Steve, talks about accompaniment being intertwined, recently i recorded some tracks for a cd, the recording engineer wished me to record the voice and instrument seperately.
I could not do it, because the accompaniment interwove completely with the singing, they were one ,that in my opinion is the sign of a good accompaniment, here is one,http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJ5xZQVkhak
http://www.last.fm/music/Dick+Miles/_/Rebel+Soldier. was another one

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 04 Oct 12 - 03:32 PM

Thanks posting that clip, Jack. It's a wonderful piece. As an aside, I always find the music you link us to interesting and enjoyable. While listening to it a second time, I began to imagine the damage that a mediocre guitar chunker could do while trying to "lift" the performance.

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Oct 12 - 03:37 PM

I did not say he was not capable, I said [and this is only my opinion]that he was best at combining guitar and voice in an imgainative and often brilliant accompaniment, amd making a sils purse out of a sows ear.
[in my opinion] I do not think he was a particularly outstanding unaccompanied singer, that does not mean he was not capable.
certain people from www.session.org have assumed this thread is specifically about itm, at no time in my original post did I say it was.
Steve,I knew Nic Jones quite well, I went to see him several times after his accident,I booked him frequently, he was an excellent performer with real charisma, but as an unaccompanied singerI would not place him in the same league as a singer guitrist
I am also very pleased he is performing again with his son playing guitar.

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Oct 12 - 03:55 PM

I can't actually recall any of Nic's songs that might have started out as sows' ears.

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Stringsinger
Date: 04 Oct 12 - 03:57 PM

Steve Shaw, I listened to MacDara Ó Raghallaigh - Ego Trip - Broderick's/McDermott's
and I heard no accompaniment. Just solo fiddle with foot. He is excellent.

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,kenny
Date: 04 Oct 12 - 04:16 PM

"certain people from www.session.org have assumed this thread is specifically about itm, at no time in my original post did I say it was".
No - you said "can accompanists lift THE MUSIC" - see "Subject" above.
To most contributers at that website "the music" primarily refers to Irish traditional music. If you didn't want us to contribute, you should have been more specific, - what did you mean by "the music" ? - and actually membership of "thesession.org" does not exclude any of us from contributing to discussions here - unless it turns into a pointless vendetta, which the moderator has made reference to above.
I wouldn't want to be seen as party to that, so this is my final comment on this thread.

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Oct 12 - 05:03 PM

i mean traditional style music[tunes and songs] but not specifically irish music.,
although ITM is of course a part of INTERNATIONAL FOLK MUSIC as is American or Bulgarian
most contributors at this website are interested in international folk music.
you are quite right about pointless vendettas, I see that is still going on over there, I have been accused of being thick, and this is in a discussion I have not even contributed too.
this site is an international folk music site, if i refer to the music I am referring to international folk music , not specifically itm., unless I specifically say ITM, which I did not.
Steve Shaw, ONE THAT IMMEDIATELY SPRINGS TO MIND IS, Billy dont you weep for me,[imo] a poor song,which is a vehicle for his EXCELLENT guitar playing

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Oct 12 - 05:15 PM

BOONY GEORGE CAMPBELL, a fragment, compared to most other ballads very poor, but nics guitar playing gives it interest, another sows ear he makes into a silks purse

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Oct 12 - 05:17 PM

Maybe you should start a thread on what constitutes a poor song. A song only exists when it's being sung. Nic decided to sing that song. Now he's your mate, so tell us whether he selected that poor song just to show off his guitar playing.

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,michael gill
Date: 04 Oct 12 - 05:20 PM

Dick, what a lot of us are saying is that yes, as a general statement, accompanists can lift music. Except for certain circumstances. Can you not agree with this?

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: johncharles
Date: 04 Oct 12 - 06:55 PM

Bonny george campbell does in three verses more than many ballads do in thirty. It encapsulates the tragedy of violent conflict and its pointlessness
John

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Oct 12 - 07:40 PM

we are all entitled to different opinIons, I have no idea why Nic selected the song probably because he liked it, that is the reason most people select songs,
I do not think its worth bothering with.
if I was going to sing a song about war, I would choose Masters of war or Tommys Lot,or Universal Soldier.
sorry but I do not rate Bonny George Campbell or Billy Dont You Weep, although as always I like his Guitar Work.
Michael Gill.if youread the posts you would find I said way back here.Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Good Soldier Schweik - PM
Date: 30 Sep 12 - 04:31 PM

I think Tony McMahon would agree with me, furthermore unlike anyone else on this thread i have given examples of tunes borrowed from other traditions, because tunes are borrowed it does not mean that the music is inferior in any way.
Steve Shaw, irish tunes which happen to be music as are scottish tunes music can be improve with good accompaniment,that does not mean that they cannot be played well without accompaniment, of course they can, and of course they are better without accompanimnt than with a guitarist or accompanist who is not familiar with the tunes who plays the wrong chordsand is not listening carefully to the melody players. but good accompaniment can add to the music.

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Oct 12 - 07:53 PM

What's a wrong chord?

Universal Soldier? Christ.

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Oct 12 - 07:55 PM

Bonny george campbell does in three verses more than many ballads do in thirty. It encapsulates the tragedy of violent conflict and its pointlessness
John

Good man, John.

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,michael gill
Date: 04 Oct 12 - 07:56 PM

With respect Dick, that doesn't answer the question. I'm not interested in bad accompaniment. I'm not interested in bad tune playing. And I'm not interested in the support that good tune playing can give to bad accompaniment and I'm not interested in the support that good accompanying can give to poor tune playing

I reiterate. Do you think that the fiddle playing I linked to above could be "lifted" by accompaniment?

What a lot of us are saying is that yes, as a general statement, accompanists can lift music. Except for certain circumstances. Can you not agree with this?

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Oct 12 - 08:07 PM

I love Nic's version of Bonny George Campbell. And listen to this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U00hSW4LvSE OK, not my cup of tea, but an honest-to-goodness effort at a bloody good song with some nice instrumental playing to boot. Now let's have a poll as to whether it's a sow's ear or a very poor ballad, as Dick asserts.

And what's Tony MacMahon gotta do with this?

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Oct 12 - 08:13 PM

You remind me of an English teacher we had in the sixth form, Michael. A Catholic priest too, he was. He could never get us buggers to listen. One day he bawled at us in frustration: "Teaching you lot is like pissing into a strong wind: it all blows back in your face!" It was the sensation of the month, wow, a priest saying "pissing." But it still didn't make us listen.

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,michael gill
Date: 04 Oct 12 - 08:25 PM

Maybe it made one of you listen?

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Oct 12 - 08:37 PM

It made us laugh all right. It was one of those courses they added in to soak up what should have been our free periods. We knew it, he knew it. He was on a hiding to nothing. But that one saying means he will live forever in the heads of about 20 lads. He's been dead now for over 40 years.

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Oct 12 - 03:39 AM

If I was having a conversation with a stranger and they insulted me I would turn around and leave.
Michael Gill insulted me on the session website in a discussion that I was not even participating in, he has been suspended until December 4 .   he has insulted me on this thread, as has Steve Shaw, until these two, both of whom have a personal vendetta against me are dealt with by the moderators, I am leaving this thread.
This thread has been messed up by two trolls.

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,michael gill
Date: 05 Oct 12 - 04:22 AM

You're like a kid whose been offered some ice cream ... but storms off to his bedroom in a huff because he didn't get any ice cream.

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Oct 12 - 05:39 AM

"Michael Gill insulted me on the session website in a discussion that I was not even participating in, he has been suspended until December 4 .   he has insulted me on this thread, as has Steve Shaw"

Jack your argumrnt has the logic of the mad hatters tea party

steve shaw. if you cant read go to specsavers,

in other words get off my back.

Steve, stop wasting everyones time, with your ridiculous liesand start reading properly, oh and stop being so patronising

Steve Shaw and Jack Campin, have come on to this thread made false accusations, and claimed Michael Gill, said things that he did not, then brought in complete irelevancies, a couple of time wasting trolls.

you really are ignorant., as well as being patronising,

jack and steve have just been trolling and flaming

the gaberdine swine, trotting, rather like the unspeakable pursuing the uneatable, to quote oscar wilde, still I dont suppose steve shaw and jack campin would appreciate OSCARS comment

that is your opinion, and in my opinion your opinion is a load of cods wallop.

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Oct 12 - 06:42 AM

they are all comments upon people comments, they are not personal attacks.
a personal attack is calling someone dishonest , a twat,   a twerp, thick., accusing someone of bringing a thread over[the thread was anew thread which made no reference to existing discussions and was not specifically about ITM]Is a character smear.
I wanted to start a fresh discussion without you, whatever happened to free speech.

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Oct 12 - 06:47 AM

in fact i have shown considerable restraint while being severly provoked and trolled.
fairly typical of the net where people bully and say things they would not dare say face to face, Steve, I am an ex boxing champion.

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Oct 12 - 07:12 AM

*Shit...*

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,999
Date: 05 Oct 12 - 07:33 AM

I thought you guys across the Atlantic said 'shite'. Live and learn.



"A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something he can learn in no other way."

Mark Twain

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Johnny J
Date: 05 Oct 12 - 07:45 AM

Up here, we say "Shecht"...

:-)

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Oct 12 - 08:16 AM

Round here we just say "jazz." :-)

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,michael gill
Date: 05 Oct 12 - 10:01 AM

Here's a good one for an boxing champion:

"Anger is an acid that can do more harm to the vessel in which it is stored than to anything on which it is poured".
(Mark Twain)

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,999
Date: 05 Oct 12 - 10:25 AM

There's an old adage in sales: Once you've sold it, stop selling it.

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Oct 12 - 06:44 AM

Bonny George Campbell, didnt he go off and start a soup company?

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Stringsinger
Date: 06 Oct 12 - 08:43 AM

One example of good accompaniment is Yvan Breaux with the group Eritage who does an admirable job on the piano behind their Irish tunes. Also, the piano
is an important part of the music of Cape Breton and there are some excellent examples of accompaniments lifting the tunes so that people want to dance.
The Bouzouki used by Irish musicians is capable of good accompaniment to many tunes. Also, John Doyle, a tasteful Irish guitarist offers good accompaniments that are musical and don't detract from the soloists.

There are many examples of accompaniments lifting the music, whether
solo violinists such as Ti Jean Carignan's backup group and others.

By contrast, the early Micheal Coleman recordings had some bad accompaniment on the piano which either was phoned in by the recording company or the
accompanist was drunk. He played all the wrong changes in spite of Coleman's brilliance.

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Arkie
Date: 06 Oct 12 - 09:33 AM

In my opinion, the Chieftains are masters of beautiful and effective accompaniment. I have enjoyed many of the groups performances because of the arrangements and the manner in which the band colored the music and supported the lead instrument or singer.

I consider myself very fortunate to witness a performance by Steve Schneider and Paul Orts in which the lead instrument, hammered dulcimer, and the guitar were joined as it there was one instrument and that was a beautiful and amazing performance.

As far as I am concerned, the music is the reason a band comes together. I want to hear a melody. What is really enjoyable is when everyone in the band comes together. I have heard performances that could have been wonderful destroyed by one member of the ensemble (most often bass or drums)way out of balance. I have also greatly appreciated performances when no one member of the ensemble was particularly exceptional but everyone worked so well together to make the music enjoyable.

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Jack Campin
Date: 06 Oct 12 - 11:15 AM

John Doyle, a tasteful Irish guitarist offers good accompaniments that are musical and don't detract from the soloists.

Doyle has been mentioned in various threads that led up to this one.

I would never go to any concert he was playing at or put on any recording he was involved with, no matter who he was "accompanying" and even if it was free. His playing is a monstrous display of raving anti-musical egomania. If I want to see somebody doing "look at me, Mum" on stage I'll find an 8-year-old - they can make it cute.

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Johnny J
Date: 06 Oct 12 - 11:55 AM

Ach, he's not that bad. Nae sae guid as Ewan McPherson though.
:-)

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Oct 12 - 12:21 PM

In my opinion, the Chieftains are masters of beautiful and effective accompaniment. I have enjoyed many of the groups performances because of the arrangements...

Herein lies an issue. A band getting together and skilfully making an arrangement is one thing. A strummer providing accompaniment in a session is another thing entirely. Much more of a bolt-on. An extra layer of parmesan on top of Michael's lasagne. Not that a few such strummers don't do a good job. They do. But there is a big difference. If you leave out an instrument from a Chieftains' arrangement you end up with something missing. Leave out the strummer and, quite often, you end up with something added.

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: johncharles
Date: 06 Oct 12 - 02:37 PM

The soup company was started by Joseph A Campbell. Bonny George was long dead before cans were invented.
john

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Oct 12 - 03:01 PM

Thanks for that condensed history, John.

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Oct 12 - 03:20 PM

Gosh!! I didn'tknow that!!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,999
Date: 06 Oct 12 - 03:25 PM

"Thanks for that condensed history, John."

Steve, that was bad.

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,michael gill
Date: 06 Oct 12 - 07:39 PM

You can like or dislike John Doyle's playing. There's no accounting for taste.

However, pertinent to this thread is that John Doyle is not an accompanist. He does not accompany. He does not play behind people, he plays "with" them, equally.

I really enjoy the duo of Liz Carroll and John Doyle. Master fiddle player Liz Carroll does not need or want an accompanist. She does not "need" a collaborator, but she likes it.

A friend of mine, someone else who's not keen on John Doyle's playing, complains he prefers Liz Carroll's playing when she's not with John Doyle. That's fair enough, but the important point is that it acknowledges that as a duo, they affect each other's playing. They are both different without each other.

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,guest jim Younger
Date: 06 Oct 12 - 09:54 PM

Good points, Mr Gill.

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,999
Date: 06 Oct 12 - 11:12 PM

Allow me to introduce you gentlemen. Mr Gill, Mr Younger; Mr Younger, Mr Gill. I'm quite sure you've never met.

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,Guest - Jim Younger
Date: 07 Oct 12 - 06:21 AM

Thank you for your courtesy, 999.

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 Oct 12 - 06:33 AM

All right! I agree! I can't lift the music. It's too heavy - all right?!

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: johncharles
Date: 07 Oct 12 - 08:58 AM

Try The New Stannah music Lift, ideal for the older guitarist.
john

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Oct 12 - 09:04 AM

Especially if you suffer from tripping upstairs.

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: johncharles
Date: 07 Oct 12 - 09:13 AM

As this clip shows it is easy with a Stannah

tripping upstairs
john

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: johncharles
Date: 07 Oct 12 - 09:15 AM

200
I could'nt resist