Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile of BBC [2011]

Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 08:22 AM

While I have no sympathy for Saville, can I raise a hypothetical question.
in some african countries it is acceptable for 13 year old girls to marry and have sex, it is against the law in European countries, so SAVILLE WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN DOING ANYTHING WRONG MORALLY OR LEGALLY IF HE HAD GONE TO AFRICA AND HAD SEX WITH 13 YEAR OLD AFRICAN GIRLS if the girls were willing., because that is their custom.
HERE is some info.   

Algeria

The age of consent in Algeria is 16 for vaginal intercourse. "Heterosexual Sodomy" (anal and/or oral sex with an opposite-sex partner) is illegal {Article 388 of the Penal Code}. As well as all same-sex sexual conduct {Article 338} and "outrages to public decency" {Article 333}. The punishment for both the first two activities with those under 18 years of age is more severe for the older participant.[citation needed]
Angola

The age of consent in Angola is 12.[1][2] However, while rarely prosecuted due to limited investigative resources and an inadequate judicial system, sexual relations with a child between the ages of 12 and 15 can sometimes be considered sexual abuse which is punishable with up to 8 years in prison.[3]
Benin

The age of consent in Benin is 18.[4]
Botswana

The age of consent is 16 for females and 14 for males, but male homosexuality is punishable by 7 years imprisonment.[5]
Burkina Faso

The age of consent is equally set at 13.[6]
Burundi

Under the new Penal Code of 2009 (in French), the age of consent in Burundi for heterosexuals (both men and women) is 18 years [2]. However, under Article 567, homosexual acts (both men and women) carry a fine of up to 100,000 Burundian francs and up to 3 years imprisonment [3].
Cameroon

The law in Cameroon does not provide a minimum age for consensual sex.[7]
Canary Islands (Spain)
For this section, see Ages of consent in Europe#Spain.
Cape Verde
Wiki letter w.svg         This section is empty. You can help by adding to it. (September 2010)
Central African Republic

There is no age of consent in the Central African Republic, but same-sex sexual activity is illegal.[8]
Ceuta (Spain)
For this section, see Ages of consent in Europe#Spain.
Chad

The age of consent in Chad is 14 for girls, even if she is married, but the ban is rarely enforced.[9]. The age of consent for boys is not known.
Comoros

The age of consent in the Comoros is 13.[10]
Côte d'Ivoire

The age of consent in Côte d'Ivoire is 18.[11]
Democratic Republic of the Congo

The age of consent in the Democratic Republic of the Congo is 14 for females and 18 for males.[12]
Djibouti

The age of consent is 18.[13][14]
Egypt

The age of consent in Egypt is 18 years, for heterosexual males and females. Sex work is illegal and the sex work law has been used against male and female homosexuals.[15]
Equatorial Guinea

The age of consent is 18.[16]
Eritrea

The age of consent in Eritrea is 18, as stipulated by Article 595.[17]
Ethiopia

The Constitution defines the age of consent as 15 for females and 18 for males. Nevertheless, early childhood marriage is common in rural areas, with girls as young as age 9 subjected to arranged marriages.[18]
Îles Éparses (France)
For this section, see Ages of consent in Europe#France.
Gabon

The age of consent in Gabon is 18.[19]
Gambia

The age of consent is 18.[20]
Ghana

The age of consent is 16.[21]
Guinea

The age of consent is 15.[22]
Guinea-Bissau

The age of consent is 16.[23]
Kenya

The age of consent in Kenya is 16 years, for heterosexual males and females, and female homosexuals. Male homosexuals get 25 years in prison.[15]
Lesotho

The age of consent is 16 for girls (sexual intercourse with a girl under 16 is considered rape), and 14 for boys.[24]
Liberia

The age of consent in Liberia is 18.[25]. Statutory rape is a first-degree rape offense which carries a maximum sentence of life imprisonment. The age of consent was raised to 18, from 16, in 2009.[26][27]
Libya

Not allowed without marriage.
Madagascar

Age of consent is 14 years, according to article 331 in the Criminal Law. In certain cases, including relatives and homosexuals, it is 21 years.Droit francophone: Code Pénal du 17 juin 1972 mis à jour au 30 juin 1998
Malawi

The age of consent is 14.[28][29]
Mali

The age of consent is 18.[30]
Madeira (Portugal)
For this section, see Ages of consent in Europe#Portugal.
Mauritania

The age of consent is 16.[31] However, under section 306 of the Legal Code, any act that violates Islamic Morality is illegal, but a clear definition of morality does not exist in the country's laws, so it is very open to interpretation by local officials as to what is moral and what is not. Thus, many acts surrounding the age of consent could be considered illegal.[32]
Mauritius

The age of consent in Mauritius is 16.

Article 249 'Rape, attempt upon chastity and illegal sexual intercourse' of the Penal Code:[33]

(...) Any person who has sexual intercourse with a female under the age of sixteen (16), even with consent, shall be liable to penal servitude not exceeding ten (10) years.
Mayotte (France)
For this section, see Ages of consent in Europe#France.
Melilla (Spain)
For this section, see Ages of consent in Europe#Spain.
Morocco

The age of consent is 18, per Art. 484 of the Penal Code.[34]
Mozambique

The age of consent is 16.[35]
Namibia

The age of consent is 16 for girls.

'Sexual offences with girls under sixteen (16) years', Section 14 of the 'Combating of Immoral Practices Act 1980'

'(1) Any male who

a) has or attempts to have unlawful carnal intercourse with a girl under the age of sixteen (16) years; or

b) commits or attempts to commit with such a girl an immoral or indecent act;

c) solicits or entices such a girl to the commission of an immoral or indecent act, -shall be guilty of an offence and liable on conviction to imprisonment for a period not exceeding six years with or without a fine not exceeding three thousand rand in addition to such imprisonment.

(2) It shall be a sufficient defence to any charge in terms of this section if it appears to the court -

a) that the girl at the time of the commission of the offence was a prostitute, that the person so charged was at the said time under the age of twenty-one (21) years and that it is the first occasion on which he is so charged; or

b) that the person who charged was at the said time under the age of sixteen (16) years ; and

c) that the girl or person in whose charge she was, deceived the person so charged into believing that she was over the age of sixteen (16) years at the said time.' [36]
Niger

Article 284 of the Niger legal code sets the age of consent at 13 years.[37]
Nigeria

The age of consent is 18.[38]
Plazas de soberanía (Spain)
For this section, see Ages of consent in Europe#Spain.
Republic of the Congo

The age of consent in the Republic of the Congo is 18. Sex with a minor is punishable by up to 5 years in prison and a fine of 10,000,000 CFA.[39]
Réunion (France)
For this section, see Ages of consent in Europe#France.
Rwanda

The age of consent in Rwanda is 18 years, regardless of sexual orientation and/or gender.[15]
Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic
Wiki letter w.svg         This section is empty. You can help by adding to it. (September 2010)
São Tomé and Príncipe
Wiki letter w.svg         This section is empty. You can help by adding to it. (September 2010)
Senegal

The age of consent in Senegal is 16 (Article 320 deals with children under 16; Article 319 deals with children under 13). Homosexual sex is illegal .[40]
Seychelles

The age of consent is 18.[41]
Sierra Leone

The age of consent is 14.[42]
Somalia

There is no age of consent in Somalia.[43]
Somaliland

Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK
From: Silas
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 08:28 AM

There is no such thing as consensual under age sex. If, as seems likley this guy was a child rapist then his memory will deserve all it gets.

Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK
From: Johnny J
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 08:49 AM

"There is no such thing as consensual under age sex. If, as seems likley this guy was a child rapist then his memory will deserve all it gets."

I've no intention of defending the guy or anyone else but, depending where you are, it is possible for a minor to give consent but this would be classified as a "sexual ofence" as opposed to rape.

In fact, until recently in Scotland, it was only rape if the child was under the age of 12 or had mental health or learning difficulties as then the child was deemed incapable of giving consent.
The law has now changed up here and I'm not quite sure of the present legislation but I'd imagine that it would still differentiate between the two different crimes or offences.

There was also the defence that a male under 22 years could have consensual sex with a female under 16 if he had every reason to believe she was actually 16 or over. Over that age, he couldn't get away with that excuse.

Of course, I'm not suggesting that one type of offence is any better or worse than another and Saville(if the reports are true) is also guilty of an abuse of power and trust which makes things far more serious in my view.

Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK
From: Silas
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 08:55 AM

I fail to see that if a child is under the age of consent how they can legally give consent. You have to be over the age of consent to give it.

Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK
From: Johnny J
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 09:01 AM

The point I was making is that the offence isn't necessarily that of rape.

Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK
From: GUEST,Felix Titling
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 09:02 AM

The Age of Consent determines our cultural & personal attitudes to childhood, and what is appropriate in terms of adult / child relationships. In the UK that age is 16, no matter what it was historically, or what it might be elsewhere. There are very good reasons for this. Even so, it would be considered decidedly dodgy if a 16-year-old would be to become involved with a much older person. An age gap of even five years might be considered too much - it certainly was when I was 16 - though there are no legal guidelines & each case will be treated differently. Maybe we're straying into Rough Band territory here; each community will have its own commonlaw limits as to what is, or is not, acceptable - or what constitutes a loving mutual relationship or one of abuse, no matter how willing the younger party may think they are.

Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK
From: buddhuu
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 09:27 AM

The laws in other countries are immaterial.

Let us postulate that, for the purpose of discussion, a certain person is a member of a culture where the legal age of consent is very clearly set at 16 years, and where the concepts of statutory rape, child abuse, paedophilia, abuse of trust, coercion, blackmail, intimidation etc etc are clearly defined and understood. Let us postulate a sexual act, or acts, perpetrated by this person upon a young person who is younger than the age of consent in this culture/jurisdiction, and that the person in question can be expected to have had a good idea of the young person's age.

That person's frame of reference should be the mores of the country in which he lives and in which his actions took place.

Express and Daily Mail readers bay loudly enough about foreigners "coming over here" and expecting not to have to live by our laws. Is anyone seriously suggesting that a British paedophile should be able to use foreign laws as an excuse? Personally, I would not leave my children in the care of anyone who would support such a defence...

People mature at different rates. There is no practical way that the laws put in place to protect the vulnerable can make allowances for that difference in maturity amongst individuals, thus we have a fairly arbitrary age of consent. Arbitrary it may be, but it is also a rational and sensible compromise - a 'best guess' or average. It is imperfect, but well meaning and a genuine attempt to afford some protection from abuse. It is the law we have and it is the law by which British citizens must abide.

Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 09:36 AM

The current case of the teacher who took a pupil to France is interesting.
If they claim only to have had sex in France there is no offence as the age of consent there is 15.
Or is there?

Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK
From: Johnny J
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 09:54 AM

Again, my point is that although an act may be a sexual offence it is not necessarily rape.

According to English Law, the age at which a female is deemed incapable of giving consent would appear to be 13 years(there are several references to this). So, the offence would certainly be that of rape then.

However, between 13 and 16 years, it is not necessarily so. If the female is a willing party, it is a different offence.
Of course, it may arguably considered to be just as serious.

Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK
From: Silas
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 10:19 AM

So Johnny, you are saying that the age of consent in the UK is 13? Really?

Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK
From: Johnny J
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 10:24 AM

No, The Law say this... in regard to the crime of Rape(In Scotland, it will still probbaly be 12... I'd have to check).

Of course, it is still against the law to have sex with someone under the age of 16. It's a different offence though.

Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK
From: Silas
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 10:28 AM

OK Tell me then is a child is under the age of consent, how does she/he give consent?

Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 10:31 AM

in my eyes there is a moral difference[ providing people consent between] someone over the age of puberty and someone under,in african countries people reach puberty earlier[as i understand it] the laws there seem to reflect this, plus there seems to be different customs and culture. it would be wrong for europeans to impose their culture on africans in africa. so if Saville had gone to africa and did what he is accused of doing it would be ok. however he did not and therefore if he did whathe is accused of, he was morally wrong, and in my opinion more so if the child had not reached puberty

Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK
From: Johnny J
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 10:43 AM

I can't help it if you disagree with the laws of the land.

Here are the Crown Prosecution guidelines

http://www.cps.gov.uk/news/fact_sheets/sexual_offences/

I am not a lawyer, of course, and they get paid a lot more money than me to argue the case on e way or another.

Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK
From: Johnny J
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 10:44 AM

Oops, last post was a reply to Silas....

Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK
From: GUEST,LeGal
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 10:45 AM

The actual legal niceties of rape are beside the point. Sir Jimmy Savile went out of his way to locate vulnerable girls and boys to sexually abuse, and he was assisted by other adults to do so. He was mostly careful to select children unlikely to talk, or who would not be listened to.

Consent is meaningless in the circumstances that he abused them.

Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 10:51 AM

Allegedly. (Unless you know something the rest of us don't, LeGal?

Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK
From: Johnny J
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 10:54 AM

"Consent is meaningless in the circumstances that he abused them"

In that case, that would have to be proved, and the decision as to what charges are preferred and/or the subsequent definition of the crime for these particular circumstances would be determined on the basis of the evidence available.

Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK
From: GUEST,Jim'll fuck it
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 10:58 AM

Hasn't Saville publicly boasted about his early days as a petty gangster running night clubs,
strong-arming individuals backstage to his office to administer punitive beatings ???

Says something about his propensity to be 'intimidating'
and a darker side to his celebrity media personality.


...Allegedly.

Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 11:04 AM

Well, it's reckoned that Mary(the one from Nazareth) was 13 or 14 when God impregnated her!
She was a minor and gave no consent to God's actions.
Even though 2000yrs have passed since that dastardly deed, I believe the criminal justice system should pursue God over this matter, even if it means travelling to parallel or alternative universes!
Let there be no place for this monster to hide!

Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 11:13 AM

When Louise met Jimmy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=84u9WnylT60

Interview with Esther Rantzen:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v22fFr3R-DM

CS

Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 11:34 AM

A lot of you seem to think grown men fucking kids is ok...

Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK
From: GUEST,John from Kemsing
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 11:38 AM

Understandably the posts from Nov.,31st,2011 take on a different hue as a result of the accusations and revelations to be found in the press and on t.v. Jimmy Savile, as he was then, figured prominently in our interest and following of pop music as he did for many of you posters. Having read what I have so far, if only his friends and colleagues had taken a more responsible line on his behalf maybe things could have been nipped in the bud although, if the reports are right, there would still have been a price for Jimmy to pay. It is also reported that, some years back, the police did not pursue an allegation due to insufficient evidence.

    I would not be surprised if the covers were lifted off the whole pop, DJ, record, promotion business, etc., of that time there would be many people heading for the hills.

Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK
From: theleveller
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 11:45 AM

"Hasn't Saville publicly boasted about his early days as a petty gangster running night clubs,
strong-arming individuals backstage to his office to administer punitive beatings ???

Says something about his propensity to be 'intimidating'
and a darker side to his celebrity media personality.


...Allegedly."

According to ma-in-law he certainly liked to cultivate that image. He did, however, come a-cropper when the guitarist of the band she sang with (who, some years later she actually married) found out what he had been doing and he and his two brothers - all builders and big lads - took Mr Saville aside and gave him a severe talking-to.

Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK
From: GUEST,LeGal
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 12:22 PM

"Allegedly. (Unless you know something the rest of us don't, LeGal?"

Nobody took much interest in what I know when it was relevant, when I was a child. There are plenty of children being abused right now who need to be listened to. They also don't need frivolous arguments about the definition of consent. They know that what is happening to them is wrong, just as Jimmy Savile's victims knew back then.

Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 12:25 PM

no spleen, i dont think so.but i do see a difference between a 16/17 year old and a pre pubescent, neither is legally correct,but one is morally worse than the other

Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK
From: Johnny J
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 12:55 PM

"They also don't need frivolous arguments about the definition of consent. They know that what is happening to them is wrong............."

Of course, what has happened to them(and is happening to many other children and young people)is wrong.
However, it's important to know what the offences actually are especially if charges have to be proved in a court of law.... too late in the case of Savile, of course.

For instance, someone might state that he, she, or someone else was "robbed" when, in fact, they were burgled!

Let me be clear, I'm not defending or trying to excuse the man if these allegations are true. However, it is very likely that a wide range of offences will have been committed. Some may indeed have been rape, others would be child abuse, indecent assault etc, or simply unlawful sex with a person below the age of consent.
I'm by no means condoning the latter as, in this case, it's almost certain to be an "unequal" relationship and an abuse of position and power.

We haven't seen the programme yet and, even then, we will be unlikely to have access to all the facts.

Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 02:55 PM

This abuse of "power and position" thing interests me.
In the UK, the age of sexual consent is 16, except between a pupil and teacher, where it's 18.
The explanation for this is that the teacher is considered "loco parentis" i.e. in place of the parents.
Now I think we on very dodgy ground here.
For example, if a teacher had sexual relations with a 16 yr old girl in his class, he would charged with sexual assault.
But imagine if that same girl had left school at 16(happens a lot in the UK ) and got a job as an office junior.
Now, the office manager is designated as her mentor. It is his job to look after her and teach her duties, and if she has any problems, she can go to him for guidance.
Now, what if that girl and office manager engage in sexual relations? Would the office manager - in the eyes of the law - be guilty of sexual assault?

Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 03:10 PM

LeGal, these are allegations only at this stage, that's all. Having said that, I personally suspect that there is considerable substance to those allegations.

What concerns me just as much is that many people seem to have been 'in the know' for a great many years (including, if its to be believed, at least one celebrity who presents themselves as a champion of a leading child-protection organisation), so WTF didn't they come forward and speak out when JS was still alive and could have been tried in the courts?

As it stands, these allegations will forever remain just that - allegations - they will never be tested in a court, and the dead really don't give a flyin' fuck about allegations, do they?

Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK
From: Joe Offer
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 03:15 PM

Is it appropriate to post scandalous allegations in an obituary thread? Well, here's my opinion. Many of our obituary threads are news items, presenting information about celebrities/public figures who died. These threads serve primarily to furnish information and discuss the life of the deceased. For threads like that, my opinion is that scandalous information is appropriate. I see no reason for some "respect for the dead" taboo. I realize that other Mudcatters feel differently, but I can't really understand that. I confess that I have to suppress the temptation to ridicule those who seem to insist that we must not speak ill of dead strangers.

Other obituary threads are about people we have known and loved, and I think that's a different matter.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 04:02 PM

We really shouldn't be shocked by the sexual antics of celebrities.
I remember some "shocking" revelations about Buddy Holly's dressing-room orgies.
Of course, when it involves underage "wide-eyed" girls, that's when most of us draw the line.
However, unless "proof of age" is requested, I'm not sure how easy it would be separate "the legal from the illegal".
Indeed, I suppose every young chap would be wise to ask for proof of age before setting out on any sexual escapade.
Better to be safe than sorry.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 04:12 PM

No one has mentioned Jerry Lee Lewis and his 13 year old third wife and cousin.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 04:28 PM

Blimey, I hope I don't get blamed for starting this thread.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 05:32 PM

I always found Mr Savile "creepy", even when he was being lauded for his good works.

The Times is serialising a book written by Mr Townshend in which he attempts to excuse his membership of a "child porn website"..."Inever looked! honest!", said he.

Mr Townshend strikes me as being equally creepy
The abuse of children is a crime for which there is no redemption.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 05:38 PM

Did Saville have alleged sexual relationships with children[ pre puberty] or willing 17 year olds , there is[IMO] a moral difference.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 05:51 PM

I dont think there is any evidence that Mr Saville was a paedophile.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: Johnny J
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 05:58 PM

"I dont think there is any evidence that Mr Saville was a paedophile. "

There probably isn't.

Also, there IS a moral difference between relationships with "children[ pre puberty] or willing 17 year olds".

However, it's likely that the offences ocurred with children and young persons aged somewhere in between these two extremes and, as such, would still be morally wrong.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 06:10 PM

Just because someone works for 'charidy' doesn't make them a saint! After all Hermann Goering worked for the Hamburg branch of 'Cats in Need' for many years ... actually, I made that up ... sorry ...

As for the age of consent stuff, I believe that it is the primary duty of all responsible adults to show concern for the welfare of children and young people. An adult person who has sex with a child or much younger person is primarily concerned with satisfying his perverted lust - not the welfare of the child or younger person.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: Allan Conn
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 06:52 PM

"If they claim only to have had sex in France there is no offence as the age of consent there is 15.
Or is there?"

Actually as far as at least part of the UK goes it would be an offense. If a UK national carries out a sexual act abroad which is illegal in Scotland it is an offense even if not illegal in the country where the act took place. Sexual Offences Scotland Act 2009. It was basically introduced to deal with sex tourists to the likes of Thailand etc but would no doubt also cover the above example.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: Allan Conn
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 07:06 PM

On reading the explanatory notes to Section 54 of the said bill it seems that in line with the Council of Europe Convention the UK govt removed dual criminality for offences committed by UK nationals abroad in connection with child abuse, child pornography and child prostitution. Hence a UK national having sex with a 15 year old in France would also be a crime under English Law. Scots Law simply goes even further in stating that any sexual offence is relevant and not just crimes against children.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 07:26 PM

NO!

It isn't all right for anybody to be a child molester Dave.

Neither is it all right to assume that a dead man was guilty of that crime, without something more than the unsupported word of alleged victims.

Dragging up "victims" to litigate for the advantage mainly of the "no win, no fee" lawyer has become a national pastime.

I never had PPI, but I get ten - twelve calls a week telling me that I have a case, and that they will handle it and get back the thousands of pounds I'm owed. God knows how many I'd get if I weren't signed up to the TPS.

Don T.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: Allan Conn
Date: 03 Oct 12 - 02:38 AM

"Neither is it all right to assume that a dead man was guilty of that crime, without something more than the unsupported word of alleged victims."

Of course anyone is innocent until proved guilty whether dead or not. So at the moment they are only accusations. However it is not just the words of the alleged victims. Much of what has been on the news has been former work colleagues who claim that it was known what was going on!

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Oct 12 - 02:40 AM

More former coworkers corroborate abuse allegations (or "muckraking if you prefer):

"a former producer, Wilfred De'Ath, has confirmed that he warned Savile informally ... after the latter spent the night "in a rather squalid hotel with a girl who was at the most 12, or probably 10". Told that he was "living dangerously", the presenter claimed that he was "much too valuable to the BBC for them to do anything to me"."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/telegraph-view/9582129/Saviles-reputation.html

***

"Former BBC producer says she witnessed Jimmy Savile abuse - video:"

http://www.guardian.co.uk/tv-and-radio/video/2012/oct/01/former-bbc-producer-jimmy-savile-video

***

"Yesterday a former BBC chauffeur made damaging allegations about how the scandal was hushed up. He said he had once driven home a 'hysterical' 12-year-old girl who claimed she had been sexually assaulted by Savile after appearing on Jim'll Fix It.
The girl 'sobbed her heart out all the way home' after she was allegedly abused by the presenter after the show during the mid-1970s. When she reached her front door, she collapsed into her mother's arms in tears, telling her: 'I'm sorry. It wasn't my fault. Jimmy grabbed me. He attacked me.'
The driver, who worked as a chauffeur for the BBC for 16 years, said staff members had previously been fired for talking about Savile's reputation, and he feared he would lose his job if he reported it.
He said the show's chiefs 'knew very well' that he had a reputation for sexually assaulting young contestants, and had even begun to employ chaperones to make sure girls could not be lured into his dressing room."

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2211463/Jimmy-Savile-As-pressure-grows-BBC-cover-women-come-forward-ordeals.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

CS

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,keith A
Date: 03 Oct 12 - 02:42 AM

Are the victims seeking compensation?
They say they were in early teens.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 03 Oct 12 - 02:49 AM

"Are the victims seeking compensation?
They say they were in early teens."

Not so far as I know.
Two twelve year old girls also referenced (see my post on coworkers).

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 03 Oct 12 - 02:53 AM

If this sordid little scandal about the BBC (Savile was seemingly 'enabled' and protected rather well) is fully opened up. I wouldn't be surprised if we see more of such allegations coming to light. The Newsnight programme which was shelved by the BBC , apparently went further than just Savile himself, and highlighted a number of other likely perpetrators.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: theleveller
Date: 03 Oct 12 - 02:54 AM

"the unsupported word of alleged victims"

They're called witnesses - it's what our criminal prosecution system is based on. What do you want - photographs?

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Oct 12 - 03:07 AM

When you have many "alleged" child victims telling the same story, you do not disbelieve them because of who the perpetrators are.
The head of Yorkshire police will have to answer to Parliament soon for just that.

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 03 Oct 12 - 03:13 AM

Just a few observations.

Whilst most of the alleged crimes will predate this, we do have a law, (Bridge or a legal bod of similar sitting may know the details?) that says if you commit a UK criminal act abroad where it is not a crime there, The CPS may consider whether there is a charge to answer if it can be proved you went abroad in order to commit it. It was brought in to help reduce sexual tourism in Asia.

Whether these were children or young adults makes no difference. If it can be proved that Saville's position of power and assumed authority was used to influence them, they are classed as vulnerable. Which pulls it back to rape regardless.

As he is dead, he cannot be charged but his reputation can be held to scrutiny. Whether this is a good thing or not is a subject of debate of course, but if it stops some others from abusing their position of trust, there could be good coming from it.

Backwoodsman. You are correct and I replied to the sod with the same spelling mistake. My bad, as my sons would say. There is not only an H in Townshend but also a G as in genious. And yet to be balanced, he was on a a membership list which for most people is not easy to explain...

Subject: RE: 2011 Obit: RIP Sir Jimmy Savile UK disc jockey
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 03 Oct 12 - 03:41 AM

Well, thanks to Dick I now know a lot more about ages of consent in different African countries than I ever expected to. Watch out for him on 'Mastermind'.