Songs to avoid...

Subject: Songs to avoid...
From: Northerner
Date: 07 Mar 06 - 03:38 PM

Hello everyone! I'm a new Mudcatter! I've been reading some of your threads for a while and have finally taken the plunge and joined you.

I have a question to ask you.   I used to be a very keen floor-singer when I was younger but dropped out of the folk music scene for a very long time when I had some serious health issues (now resolved).

I started going back to folk music events in the summer of 2003, and back to folk clubs last summer. In January of this year I finally started singing again. I was very nervous initially but am being given a good reception floor singing in local clubs. Most weeks I go to three clubs, sometimes more.

I had completely forgotten all of my old material and have had to learn it all over from the beginning again. I really wasn't sure where to start, so I started right at the beginning with the songs I started out with - and that's 30 years ago. Because I hadn't sung them for so long they all feel fresh to me. I did wonder though if using songs from this period would be a bit old-fashioned, and if there were newer, more popular songs that I should be learning.

I started with "Martin Said to His Man". This went down really, really well. One club organiser asked me to sing it again. Then I followed up with "Wild Mountain Thyme", "Scarborough Fair" and "Loving Hannah". "Loving Hannah" also got a very enthusiastic approval from a club organiser. Next ones I intend singing are "Busk, busk", "Recruited Collier" and "Sorry the Day I was Married".   

Question: Are any of these really tired old chestnuts, that I should be avoiding? Are there any songs that I should avoid? Or do I simply sing them and see which ones go down the best?

I'm from the north-east of England and sing English songs. My parents were Scots and I also lived in Aberdeen for a year and love the songs from that area, so I sing Scottish songs as well.

Thank you all.

Subject: RE: Songs to avoid...
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 07 Mar 06 - 03:40 PM

Sing 'em all, if you sing 'em well!

Subject: RE: Songs to avoid...
From: Ernest
Date: 07 Mar 06 - 03:42 PM

First of all, welcome to the mudcat, Northener!

Which songs to avoid? Perhaps those that are overdone like Wild Rover, Whisky in the jar etc.

But this may be the choice for my place (Berlin, Germany), not yours...

Good luck

Ernest

Subject: RE: Songs to avoid...
From: fat B****rd
Date: 07 Mar 06 - 03:45 PM

Welcome, Northerner. Glad you're better. What Clinton said.

Subject: RE: Songs to avoid...
From: Northerner
Date: 07 Mar 06 - 03:53 PM

Hello and thank you all! Seems that maybe I should be careful on some of the Irish ones... But if I like them, well hey, I should get up and raise the roof with them!

Thank you for your good wishes.

Diane

Subject: RE: Songs to avoid...
From: Purple Foxx
Date: 07 Mar 06 - 03:58 PM

Welcome Northener.
Chick Murray claimed he was passing the Rangers club one night when a man stopped him & asked him the quickest way to the Infirmary.
"Easy,said Chick,away in there & sing "Danny Boy!" "
Other than that sing what you wish.

Subject: RE: Songs to avoid...
From: Northerner
Date: 07 Mar 06 - 04:02 PM

Hi Purple Foxx! That's not in my repertoire either - though I went to a singing class last autumn and we sang it there. Along with "My love is like a red, red rose". Same catergory I think. They must have been good once.

I probably already know what the real old chestnuts are...

Subject: RE: Songs to avoid...
From: Purple Foxx
Date: 07 Mar 06 - 04:05 PM

Oh yes "Blaydon Races" is probably best avoided in Sunderland.

Subject: RE: Songs to avoid...
From: Northerner
Date: 07 Mar 06 - 04:12 PM

What a shame. It's quite an enjoyable song. Thanks!

Subject: RE: Songs to avoid...
From: Leadfingers
Date: 07 Mar 06 - 04:12 PM

There is nothing wrong with 'the old chestnuts' except that some of 'em DID get done to death in 'the good old days' . But as we havent heard them for a while , they sound fresh again ! Sing what you feel comfortable singing , and have a good time


          Oh Yes - And Welcome to The Cat

Subject: RE: Songs to avoid...
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 07 Mar 06 - 04:14 PM

" nothing wrong with 'the old chestnuts'"

Only good swords
Become old swords

:-)

Subject: RE: Songs to avoid...
From: Northerner
Date: 07 Mar 06 - 04:18 PM

Thank you Leadfingers!

Now, I'm looking to hear someone sing "Band of Shearers" again...

I'm going up for a nostalgia visit to Aberdeen at the end of the month. Really looking forward to it. I'm only going to stop over for a day on my way to see a cousin in Turriff but I'll be posting details about it. There's a storytelling festival on. I'm really excited about it. I'm learning how to be a storyteller!

Subject: RE: Songs to avoid...
From: Northerner
Date: 07 Mar 06 - 04:20 PM

That's probably true Hammond. Many of these old chestnuts probably don't sound like chestnuts at all when they are sung by the right singer on the right occasion.

Subject: RE: Songs to avoid...
From: Northerner
Date: 07 Mar 06 - 04:22 PM

Sorry Clinton - I got your name wrong.

I go away to festivals occasionally. Do you think anyone would enjoy hearing about what I get up to? I go to both folk festivals and storytelling festivals.

Subject: RE: Songs to avoid...
From: Emma B
Date: 07 Mar 06 - 04:32 PM

Have you been to Festival at the Edge Northerner? - a wonderul mix of storytelling and music.

Subject: RE: Songs to avoid...
From: Santa
Date: 07 Mar 06 - 04:33 PM

In my opinion, you are right to at least consider avoiding real chestnuts, and a couple of the ones on your list must be borderline at best. Scarborough Fair perhaps, but it is a great song. Wild Mountain Thyme, but everyone does love joining in the chorus. Best kept for a closer, perhaps? Ditto Sorry The Day I Was Wed. But Loving Hannah is a beautiful song that hasn't been overdone, and Recruited Collier was last popularised by Kate Rusby and Kathryn Roberts, which is itself quite a long time ago now. I don't remember Busk, Busk, so that must be due for a revival.

In the end, however, it is better to sing a song well than worry about the audience having heard it too often before. If you can mix in a few songs that are newer to you and your audience so much the better, but this will come with time as you listen to other singers.

I suspect you know all of this anyway.

Subject: RE: Songs to avoid...
From: Northerner
Date: 07 Mar 06 - 04:37 PM

Hello Emma! No, I didn't have time to get to it last year. Maybe I'll get there this year.

Last year I went to the Beyond the Border Festival, the week's storytelling workshop at Bleddfa, Whitby Folk Week, the Lake District Storytelling Festival and the Scottish International Storytelling Festival - oh and part of Saltburn.

Beyond the Border has been put back to biennial this year, so Festival at the Edge might be a good alternative for me.

Subject: RE: Songs to avoid...
From: Northerner
Date: 07 Mar 06 - 04:43 PM

Thank you Santa. That sounds like good advice. I will also be able to tell from audience reactions which songs are the better ones to put into my more permanent repertoire again.

I will be able to add newer material eventually. At the moment, digging out my older material is a help in putting a repertoire together quickly and in giving me confidence.

Subject: RE: Songs to avoid...
From: Dan Schatz
Date: 07 Mar 06 - 04:50 PM

I tend to think there are few experiences more powerful than hearing one of the "old chestnuts" performed in a new way, that makes them almost like a new song. The best of the old favorites are, as others have said, songs that last because they're good. That's what folk music is all about. I think they only become tiresome when the emotional connection gets lost - then it's just insipid.

But if you have a real present emotion coming through the singing, you might just revive a good song for a lot of people. I especially love to hear "chestnuts" thrown in a set with lots of less familiar songs - it helps to highlight just how good that old standard can be.

Dan Schatz

Subject: RE: Songs to avoid...
From: Joybell
Date: 07 Mar 06 - 04:52 PM

Hello Northerner. The old songs have never gone away for some of us. In nearly 60 years of singing I've learned songs new and old, fashionable and forgotten. Sometimes the songs I sing become fashionable and over-done so I leave them aside for a bit, sing them at home, then come back to them.
Give every place they'll have you a try I reckon. If anyone tells you a song is unacceptable tell them you learned it from your family where it's a tradition. Welcome and Good luck.
Cheers, Joy (in Australia)

Subject: RE: Songs to avoid...
From: Northerner
Date: 07 Mar 06 - 05:01 PM

Thank you both. All of my songs will probably sound quite fresh because I have so much joy in standing up and singing them. At one stage I thought I would never be up and singing in a folk club again. So it is especially wonderful for me to be singing them. I suspect that will come over in my singing. And I can always rest them once I have sung them round my current clubs. And perform new ones!

Subject: RE: Songs to avoid...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Mar 06 - 05:01 PM

I did wonder though if using songs from this period would be a bit old-fashioned...?

Surely "old-fashioned" is a very strange word indeed to use in a negative sense in the context of folk music.

It's a bit like apologising for using a round ball in a game of football. (Real football, that is.)

Subject: RE: Songs to avoid...
From: Northerner
Date: 07 Mar 06 - 05:05 PM

I couldn't really think of a good exact word to use. "Tired" perhaps, or "passe". Songs that sound dull through overuse. Songs that might also reflect how out-of-date I've become. I think my song selection does sound like I've put it together as a list of 70s favourites. Songs do go in and out of fashion I suspect.

Subject: RE: Songs to avoid...
From: Purple Foxx
Date: 07 Mar 06 - 05:12 PM

I think possibly your concerned about your repertoire being cliched,Northener.
Don't be.
Most people will not have heard you sing these songs.
That automatically makes them something new.
Sing what you like & like what you sing & , most likely,your audience will as well.

Subject: RE: Songs to avoid...
From: Northerner
Date: 07 Mar 06 - 05:19 PM

Thank you Purple Foxx. Yes, that's right. Cliched is pretty close to what I was worried about.

I've been updating my CD collection so I'll gradually find out which songs have become more popular with today's folk club audiences. And I'm going to see a good number of folk performers, both at folk clubs and at festivals.

Subject: RE: Songs to avoid...
From: Micca
Date: 07 Mar 06 - 05:35 PM

Welcome Northerner, If I may contribute? sometimes a song that is a bit passé in one area may be "fresh and new" in another. I remember vividly at a song circle a few hundred miles from my normal stamping ground doing a song that was almost old hat in my local clubs and expecting EVERYONE to come in on the Chorus only to find that very few knew it and those not well enough to do it justice!!! I was slightly discomknockerated

Subject: RE: Songs to avoid...
From: Northerner
Date: 07 Mar 06 - 05:39 PM

A good point Micca. I'm hoping to gradually introduce some of the songs that I heard during my year in Aberdeen. There's certainly some that aren't sung very often in the Tees Valley. And I'm expecting to be up in Scotland a few more times this year. May find some more good material.

Subject: RE: Songs to avoid...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Mar 06 - 05:40 PM

It isn't really a matter of which songs are popular with today's folk club audiences. If anything it's the complete reverse of that.

You take note of which songs are being sung by other floor singers, or guest performers, in the places where you want to sing, and you leave those alone.

Subject: RE: Songs to avoid...
From: Northerner
Date: 07 Mar 06 - 05:46 PM

Hmm. I heard "Busk, busk" being sung by another singer at one of the clubs that I go to. It's one of my favourites. She also sang it far too slowly, in my opinion. Sounds like I should avoid singing it in that particular club and just sing it at the two others (she doesn't go to the others).

Is there any kind of etiquette at all? That if a singer sings a song regularly it is polite to leave it alone?

I do generally prefer not to tread on somebody else's song, but I have a few firm favourites.

Subject: RE: Songs to avoid...
From: Bert
Date: 07 Mar 06 - 05:55 PM

I love the old favourites but always include one or more songs that I'm sure that no one has ever heard before.

Subject: RE: Songs to avoid...
From: Northerner
Date: 07 Mar 06 - 06:05 PM

Thank you Bert. At the moment I don't know which songs will be unfamiliar to the other performers but I'm guessing that my Scottish material will be the least familiar, apart from songs like "Busk, busk" that has penetrated far from its source area.

My performing repertoire also includes stories. None of the other performers from the folk clubs in my area tell stories. So my story material immediately becomes unique in these folk clubs.

Subject: RE: Songs to avoid...
From: GUEST,wordy
Date: 07 Mar 06 - 06:17 PM

Purple Foxx, thank you for another Chic Murray morsel. Loved the man. I have his autograph. Nobody seems to remember him today, but I can do a good impression.

Subject: RE: Songs to avoid...
From: kytrad (Jean Ritchie)
Date: 07 Mar 06 - 06:48 PM

Northerner, I'm happy to hear that you're singing one of our old family songs (Ritchie family of Kentucky), "Lovin' Hannah." I took this song back to the 'Olde Country' in 1952 when I was awarded a Fulbright scholarship to spend a school-year in England, Scotland and Ireland, tracing the sources of our Kentucky family ballads and songs. It was a wonderful year, and my new husband and I met hundreds of traditional singers and heard thousands of songs! The "folk revival" hadn't begun yet, or was just about to begin...everyone wanted to hear songs from the USA, and loved the stories of our mountain family life. I did programs in London on the earliest TV (sometimes, fog filled the studio); David Attenborough did one of his first TV shows just with my doing family stories and songs of Kentucky. He told me recently that was the first time BBC had allowed him to do a TV show all on his own.

I sang "Lovin Hannah" for Jeannie Robertson in Scotland and for Elizabeth Cronin in Cork- they were two whom we visited and exchanged songs with. Before leaving, I recorded for HMV six songs on those small vinyls, and "Lovin Hannah" was one of the six. So, over the years, the song has spread all around again. Sandy and Caroline Paton, somewhere in the 60s or so, "collected" it from Jeannie Robertson. They asked where it came from; she replied, "Well I learnt that one from a wee record by Jeannie Ritchie!" They were astounded- thinking it had come from her own family.

A few years ago (maybe 1996 or so) we went to a Mary Black concert and were invited to a pub for drinks afterward with her party. I told her about, "Lovin Hannah" being our family song and asked where she had it from...she said something like, "Oh, my brother had it from an old lady down the street from him..."

Well- that's a story of how the old music goes back and forth across the oceans; you may tell it to your audiences if you like!

Joy and blessings to you,    Jean Ritchie

Subject: RE: Songs to avoid...
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 07 Mar 06 - 07:19 PM

"Is there any kind of etiquette at all? That if a singer sings a song regularly it is polite to leave it alone? "

I was at an Accordion Festival. I was waiting my turn in the 'walk up and play' section, when a pair did the tune I was planning. But their version was so different, done on different instruments (banjo & hammered dulcimer vs my piano accordion), and differently paced, that I said 'what the hell' and did it anyway.

They came up to me afterwards, very impressed with my version. We both agreed that our renditions were so different that neither of us had any real problems 'stepping on each others toes' musically.

The tune "Ashokan Farewell" - originally deemed to be a 'violin solo' :-)

BTW, I now prefer to be earlier in the 'walk up and play' section...

Subject: RE: Songs to avoid...
From: Leadfingers
Date: 07 Mar 06 - 07:45 PM

It does tend to be 'polite' NOT to do songs that are regularly performed at a club by one of the regular singers , unless your version is a totally different treatment , in which case I would check that they hadnt intended to do it that night , THEN do your version !
       One thing I notice round here - the number of local singers who are doing what amounts to a cut price copy of arrangements I did with a trio fifteen years ago !

Subject: RE: Songs to avoid...
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 07 Mar 06 - 07:48 PM

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery - so they all say...

Subject: RE: Songs to avoid...
From: The Badger
Date: 07 Mar 06 - 08:07 PM

The choice of song, in most cases, doesn't matter if you enjoy singing it and the audience can see you enjoy singing it - they will go with you. Never bother to sing a song simply because you think it is the "correct" song to sing.
A lot of the "Oldies but Goldies" have not been sung for years and are now "Born Again" to new audiences who will enjoy them just as much as people did 20 something years ago.
The only caveat is avoid jingoistically political songs as audiences are far more sophisticated and informed.
welcome back Northerner.

Subject: RE: Songs to avoid...
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 07 Mar 06 - 08:14 PM

Of course you can do such songs, if your audience suspects that you are being cynical... :-)

"God is on our side"... etc

Subject: RE: Songs to avoid...
From: Maryrrf
Date: 07 Mar 06 - 08:27 PM

As long as your treatment of the song is fresh and you really enjoy singing it I think you can get away with all but the most obviously overdone songs which you probably wouldn't sing anyway - things like the ubiquitous "Wild Rover" - although there are some great versions of the Wild Rover that sound completely different from the well known pub song.   I'm glad you've come back to the world of folk music. Enjoy yourself!

Subject: RE: Songs to avoid...
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Mar 06 - 11:33 PM

Wonderful Tonight
Ride On
Colours
Leaving On A Jet Plane

... and any other codswallup from the Dave Kenningham song folder.

Subject: RE: Songs to avoid...
From: GUEST,thurg
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 12:14 AM

I would say if you feel like singing Wild Rover, go ahead and sing it. Some of us sophisticates have long been weary of it, but there will be plenty people in your audience happy to sing along ... unless you're in some hardcore folk club, in which case - don't sing it!

Subject: RE: Songs to avoid...
From: Purple Foxx
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 02:11 AM

Slightly off topic I know but guest Wordy if you google "chic murray"
I think you'll like what you see.
"I was walking down the street putting one foot in front of the other,the way you do."
The man was a poet.

Subject: RE: Songs to avoid...
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 02:13 AM

Talking about codswallop ... :-)

Subject: RE: Songs to avoid...
From: Northerner
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 04:42 AM

How wonderful to speak to you Jean! I'd heard of you, but have never seen you sing. Isn't the Internet wonderful?

I heard "Loving Hannah" when I was living up in Aberdeen - so obviously it's come from Jeannie Robertson. It used to be sung at the Aberdeen Folk Club. I admired Jeannie's singing so much, but never got to hear her sing as she had had a stroke not long before I came up. My sister had a record with a track of Jeannie singing "My son David" on it, that I had heard. Jeannie was in the audience at a concert that I went to.

However, her daughter Lizzie sang at the club quite often. And her nephew Stanley sang regularly at the club. Stanley was always very supportive of my singing. I had a wee get-together with some friends not long before I left Aberdeen and Stanley told us all one of his spooky stories. It was getting dark and he wouldn't let me switch on the light - so we were sat in the dark listening to him. All of a sudden he went BOO! I must have jumped a foot in the air!!!! I've never forgotten it.

I lost contact with my Aberdeen friends eventually. However in 2004 I was at the Whitby Folk Week and I bumped into Stanley again and I made up my mind that I was going to tell Stanley a story - to repay the compliment that he had paid me. And last year I did precisely that, at a storyround that he was leading. It was my first story (though not the first telling). And now I tell stories regularly.

I will be seeing Stanley again later this month as I am going to visit a cousin in the north of Scotland and will be stopping off in Aberdeen on my way there. Stanley has suggested a good storytelling event in Aberdeen that I can go to - he will be performing there. He has offered to introduce me to some of the travelling folk. I feel very honoured indeed - I have a great respect for the way in which the travellers have carried our tradition.

It's a pleasure talking to you. Thank you.

Diane Taylor

Subject: RE: Songs to avoid...
From: Northerner
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 05:24 AM

Thank you all! I can probably sing "Busk, busk" without any worries as I sing it in a different tempo to the other lady, and I think my words are also slightly different. In any case I will sing it only once in the club that she also goes to, and reserve it after that for the other clubs.

Subject: RE: Songs to avoid...
From: Purple Foxx
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 05:33 AM

That seems perfectly reasonable, Northener.

Subject: RE: Songs to avoid...
From: Northerner
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 05:40 AM

Thank you Purple Foxx.

Subject: RE: Songs to avoid...
From: kytrad (Jean Ritchie)
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 07:32 PM

Diane, I'm happy to hear your latest news of Stanley. I think he's the one I met about two (or three?) years ago at a festival in Washington, DC. They had put me on an exciting program of Scotland-to-Appalachia, featuring songs, instrumental music and customs. Several Scottish folks, and of course fiddlers, banjoists, singers, etc. from the Appalachian mountain regions, sharing a culture. I met Stanley and we had a great time recollecting old memories from my visit to Scotland- they were only stories to him, as he probably had not been born then (1952-53). Lizzie was then a wee lassie- in our photos she appears to be about eight or nine, with pigtails.

Don't want to stray from your thread subject, so I'll just say that I love everybody to sing any of 'my' songs they wish! I told my story relating to Loving Hannah because I'm something of a folklore collector, and I myself always like to know a song's source and something of its travels and history. I'm not a scholar, but so far, in my long life and much rambling about the world I haven't found, outside my family and the small Kentucky Mountain community where my dad was born and raised, this particular version of Loving Hannah.
Handsome Molly is a close cousin, and definitely from the same root, but is a very different song- a fairly modern variant (more rhymical and accepting of instrumental accompaniment).

So- that's why I claim Loving Hannah as 'our family song.' It's like my having her for a sister- but not that I own her; not that no-one else can enjoy doing the song. I wish everybody would sing any/all of those I love and sing- and that when Im gone and they're being sung, then- a loving memory of Jean, that old lady from Kentucky, will run through the singer's mind- and in whatever Heaven I'm in by then I'll feel that thought, and enjoy the thank-you!

Subject: RE: Songs to avoid...
From: Ernest
Date: 09 Mar 06 - 04:24 AM

Jean,
since you are interested in "Loving Hannah"`s travels I can tell you that one of our local singers here in Berlin, Robbie Doyle (of the band Inish) is doing a terrific version of that song - and he is crediting you as his source, although I don`t know if you have ever met personally.
Apart from Robbie, I have never heard anybody singing that song here - which is a pity since it is such an fantastic song.
Thank you for sharing it with us!
Best wishes
Ernest

Subject: RE: Songs to avoid...
From: Northerner
Date: 09 Mar 06 - 06:16 AM

Hello Jean

Lovely to hear from you again!

Yes, that sounds like Stanley. He retired a few years ago. Occasionally he comes down to England to perform at a festival. I know he'll be pleased when I tell him that I've talked to you on the Internet, and about your memories of his family.

I will be delighted to tell everyone the origins of "Loving Hannah" when I sing it - and I'll make sure you get a special mention. I got my version from a singer called Janice Clark, who used to sing at the Aberdeen Folk Club (probably still does). She's a friend of the Robertsons. The tune is slightly different from your version, and one or two words differ too - that's simply because it has gone through the folk process. In 2003 I heard Jimmy Hutchison sing it at the Whitby Folk Week - it was the same tune that I use. I live in the north-east of England, so I'm doing my bit to spread it around!

I've got my train ticket booked now for my trip up north at the end of the month. I will be staying with my cousin in Turriff but will have a day in Aberdeen seeing an event at the Storytelling Festival that is on then. I will be telling everyone here on Mudcat all about it!

It's a pleasure to meet you. Thank you.
Diane Taylor