BS: Suffer The Children (Dublin child abuse)

Subject: BS: Suffer The Little Children....
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Nov 09 - 01:34 PM

The events in Ireland over the last few days seem to have passed the rest of the world by (or maybe they hasve been filed under the category 'The love that dare not speak its name').
Following on from the Ryan report on child abuse, the Govenment has just released the results of the Murphy Enquiry into abuse in the Diocease of Dublin.
The report states that not only have clerics been raping and sexually and physically abusing children placed in their care routinely and on a huge scale for over thirty years, but their crimes have been systematically and deliberately covered up by the heirarchy of the church over the periods of office of 4 archbishops.
Priests observed to be a risk to children have been moved on to other parishes to 'carry on the work of god' and their crimes have been spiritually excused from being a sin by the inventing of the state of 'mental reservations' for the perpetrators.   
Complaints of abuse have been ignored by government authorities and by the the police, who quite often reported them back to the diocese.
Reports of abuse sent to The Vatican were ignored under the excuse that they should have been submitted "via the correct diplomatic channels".
Surely it's about time that these criminals and their accomplices were prosecuted for their crimes.
And isn't it about time that the church - any church - be barred from holding any position of authority other than that of giving religious guidance to those who wish to receive it.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children
From: Alice
Date: 28 Nov 09 - 02:15 PM

We've been hearing about the Irish news over here, Jim. CNN, MSNBC, all the networks covering it as international news.

There is also a case here getting news coverage about a young man, Nathan Halbach, age 22, with brain cancer. He was fathered by a priest. The priest's order made the mother promise to go away and keep quiet. While her son was dying of brain cancer, she finally spoke out. The Franciscan's just announced they will pay the funeral costs since the mother went public about the priest.

Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children
From: Alice
Date: 28 Nov 09 - 02:18 PM

"Now her son -- the youngest of four children -- may have just weeks to live. And when the Franciscans balked at paying for his care, she decided she was no longer bound by her pledge of confidentiality."
"I never asked for extraordinary amounts. I asked for the basic needs and care of my son," Bond told CNN's "AC 360." But she said the church told her, "No, we are not Nathan's biological father, we have no legal obligation to your son."


Secret Father

Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Nov 09 - 02:29 PM

This affair is indeed a disgrace Jim and must have been a horrific experience for the poor children involved, but trying to link this sort of abuse to any particular religious order seems to go against reason.....why do we not see this volume of abuse in other religions or even in other branches of Christianity?

I fear we must look elsewhere for the reasons why this evil seems so relatively common among the priesthood.

There have been no statistics released yet for the Irish child abuse, but a study of a similar case in the US in 2004 came up with the following interesting findings
• "The largest group of alleged victims (50.9%) was between the ages of 11 and 14, 27.3% were 15-17, 16% were 8-10 and nearly 6% were under age 7. Overall, 81% of victims were male and 19% female. Male victims tended to be older than female victims. Over 40% of all victims were males between the ages of 11 and 14."

Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Nov 09 - 02:46 PM

Akenaton:
"but trying to link this sort of abuse to any particular religious order seems to go against reason.."
Hence my having written "And isn't it about time that the church - any church..... etc."
Can't make anything of your statistics - I do hope you're not going to give us a repeat performance of your 'gay-bashing' as on a recent thread.
This is not an example of homosexuality; it is a case of abuse of spiritual authority and of negligence of duty towards children in care by church and state on a massive scale.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Nov 09 - 02:57 PM

No need to get personal Jim, but what is your opinion on the fact that this practice appears to be rife among the catholic priesthood but much less so in other sections of christianity...or other religions?

Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children
From: kendall
Date: 28 Nov 09 - 03:11 PM

Organized religion. BAH!

Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Nov 09 - 03:16 PM

The Catholic Church was of course complicit in the cover up of this affair and did indeed disgracefully fail the children and their families.....no question in that......but the actual abuse was perpetrated by individuals and these individuals should be put under the closest scrutiny.

Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children
From: michaelr
Date: 28 Nov 09 - 03:20 PM

Duh - what's to blame here is the Catholic church's unnatural mandatory celibacy oath.

Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children
From: Alice
Date: 28 Nov 09 - 03:24 PM

Child abuse is common in many religions where the authority figures are held above the law and obeyed without question because of fear of being expelled from the group. The Catholic Church is a large institution, so you see the abuse on a relative scale. There are other, smaller religious groups that include child abusers in their ranks, but they don't get as much world news coverage. It is hypocrisy, no matter the religion in which it occurs (FLDS child rape, Islamic mercy killings, Scientology forced labor, Christian Scientist lack of medical care, etc.)

Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children
From: Smokey.
Date: 28 Nov 09 - 03:51 PM

Is anyone actually going to be brought to justice as a result of this latest report? The last one was little more than an insult to the victims and, I should imagine, a great relief to the perpetrators and their 'superiors' who effectively got away with it.

And isn't it about time that the church - any church - be barred from holding any position of authority other than that of giving religious guidance to those who wish to receive it.

Absolutely. They have proved themselves to be not worthy of trust.

Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Nov 09 - 03:54 PM

The subject of this thread is child sexual abuse(in Dublin).

Personally I have nothing to say in favour of organised religion, but would suggest there is something more than a power trip going on in the Catholic priesthood......81% to 19%!! use your brain.

Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children
From: Smokey.
Date: 28 Nov 09 - 04:13 PM

I see what you mean, Akenaton, but those figures may reflect opportunity more than they do sexual preference. I don't claim to know, just pointing out the possibility.

Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children
From: Joe Offer
Date: 28 Nov 09 - 06:01 PM

Jim, I will agree that any child abuse is horrendous, but I would like to know what "on a huge scale" means. Were thousands of priests involved in these crimes? Did the victims number in the tens of thousands? What percentage of priests have never been involved in any sexual misconduct with children, and what percentage of children were NOT victimized?

When you say that four Dublin archbishops systematically covered up the offenses, that is four out of how many? And what is it that they did that you consider a "coverup"? Did they fail to address the problem altogether, or did they actively support abuse, or did they perform less than totally admirably in some situations, or what?

The sexual abuse of children in churches (and in other institutions) has been a horrible scandal for a long, long time. Heck, songs have been written about the problem, long before the scandals of the last forty years. I would contend, however, that a relatively small percentage of Catholic priests (well under ten percent) committed crimes of child sexual abuse, and a relatively small percentage of Catholic children were victimized (I have no way to guess a number). I do not mean to downplay the problem, but I think it is important to be realistic and to recognize that the wrongdoers are a relatively small number. In the priesthood, as in every walk of life, most people are pretty good people.

Still, I have serious questions about the bishops. There definitely appears to have been widespread coverups, but it is unclear why this happened and what exactly happened. In my diocese of Sacramento, the policy was to give victims a settlement of $25,000 to $50,000, which was considered generous at the time (now the going rate is $1 million); and to offer counseling. Several priests were prosecuted, and some went to prison. In other situations where it was not clear that the conduct was criminal, the priest was reassigned to a job that did not involve contact with children; and some were removed from the priesthood. My diocese had a notoriously liberal bishop who wanted to make sure things were done right, so it may be that the situation was better in Sacramento than it was in other places. Many people received million-dollar settlements in Sacramento in the last few years, but most had already been paid many years ago - and most of the priests involved had already been removed from the priesthood, and some were prosecuted. In my diocese, there were no priests who were simply reassigned after a sexual abuse complaint. In every instance, the action taken was much more severe.

But still, the coverups happened - and in many dioceses. And there are still many unanswered questions. Were the bishops forced into silence by attorneys and insurance companies? We're often told not to apologize or admit guilt in a traffic accident, because otherwise we'll be "taken to the cleaners" by the other party. Did fear of unreasonable settlements lead to a Code of Silence among bishops? It may seem callous, but what would you do if you were faced with the prospect of paying a hundred million dollars for the misdeeds of ten people? The victims certainly deserved compensation - but the people who paid the compensation were not the criminals, and they had no knowledge of the crimes. And how much money is just compensation for a crime, especially when the people paying the compensation are not the criminals - an infinite amount?

Could it be that bishops believed too strongly that criminal priests could be cured by extensive psychiatric treatment? It you will recall, the concept of "rehabilitation" of criminals was in fashion in the 1960s and 1970s. Since the rebirth of conservatism in the 1980s, vengeance and retribution and punishment have become far more important in criminal justice, but the guiding lights of the 1970s believed that criminals could be reformed if exposed to the wisdom of psychiatry. Well, the American bishops believed that, and they spent tens of millions on programs meant to rehabilitate wayward priests. And when the priests were released with a "clean bill of health" after 6 months to two years of residential treatment, they were assigned to parishes with the belief that they would no longer be a risk.

We can go on forever with these blanket condemnations of priests and bishops and celibacy and all Catholics and churches in general - but if we use that approach, we'll never solve the problem. It's time to stop screaming and explore the problem with hard facts and brutal honesty. I've seen a whole lot of rhetoric and very little honesty in the reaction to this scandal. It's time to stop our obsession with blame. Many of those responsible for these crimes are dead or long retired. Our emphasis should be on healing the damage that was caused, exploring the reasons for child molestation, and developing methods of prevention and response that will effectively deal with this problem.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children
From: Smokey.
Date: 28 Nov 09 - 06:15 PM

With respect, there's a big difference between wanting equal justice for all and being obsessed with blame. Society needs to be protected from these people, not the other way around.

Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Nov 09 - 06:19 PM

I agree with much of what you say joe, but the "brutal honesty" is unlikely to be forthcoming, given the current atmosphere of "liberal", offend no one, political correctness.

Smokey.....I also understand your point about a certain amount of opportunism being involved, but hetero paedophiles do not abuse teenage boys, that has historically been a large part of homosexual practice.....also the issue of opportunity is more than cancelled out by the fact that homosexual abuse is very often under reported,

Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children
From: Smokey.
Date: 28 Nov 09 - 06:31 PM

"but hetero paedophiles do not abuse teenage boys"

A generalisation, but fair comment - I see what you mean. Those who molest small children are less fussy about gender, but most of the kids referred to were older.

Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children
From: Smokey.
Date: 28 Nov 09 - 07:05 PM

All of which, of course, is ignoring female child abusers who, although fewer, should not be forgotten.

Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children
From: Fergie
Date: 28 Nov 09 - 10:21 PM

I really don't want to get involved in this debate, but I feel compelled to add some comments.
I was reared in the Ireland of the fifties and sixties. I witnessed the phenomenon that was the Irish Catholic Church at that time. The clergy were almost exclusively the sons of the middle classes and wealthy farmers. The victims were almost exclusively the sons and daughters of the working and rural poor. The RC church was extremely powerful, they controlled the education system and the health system and many institutions that were properly the responsibility of the Social Welfare system. The Church and the clergy was fascist in nature, antidemocratic, paternalistic, misogynistic, sectarian and believed that the Irish State should be a Catholic State for a Catholic people.
Many of the politicians of the time (including Eamon DeValera the prime-minister and later president of the state, and many members of his cabinet and government) held similar views, and took a diffident stance when it came to questions regarding "moral authority" and they actively colluded with the RC church when it came to questions regarding the rights of citizens of the state.
The Catholic Church in the Republic of Ireland were not answerable to the authority of the state, on the contrary the state was answerable to the Catholic Church, (for those who are sceptical of the truth of this assertion, let them Google Noel Browne and the Mother and Child Act or just go HERE).
The clergy had immense power and position (for instance it was almost impossible for a person to get any meaningful employment without the imprimatur of the local parish priest or curate), and they abused that power over and over. They infiltrated every aspect of civil life and ensured that they themselves or some self-serving and obsequious lackey was appointed to every civil committee and organisation in the land, everything from local football clubs, youth club, cultural festival etc, etc, etc. many of the men (and some women) that were attracted to "religious life" were drawn by the obvious power and prestige that came with the collar or the veil. Many evil people were aware that they could perpetrate their "deviances" without fear of exposure if they could operate behind the collar or veil and they joined the ministry in their hundreds, where they had access to children in many institutions, schools, orphanages, hospitals, industrial schools, choirs, sports clubs, etc. etc.
To be a child, especially a Catholic child from a working class or from a poor background in the Irish Republic in the fifties and sixties was a dangerous thing to be, for you were at the mercy of these predators.
To be beaten in school by some sadistic bastard of a brother, priest or nun was the daily experience of tens of thousands of Irish children, (I was one of those children), to be subjected to daily criticism and humiliation for the quality of your home or your clothes or your father occupation was your daily experience (I was one of those children) to be branded a fool, ignorant, worthless, dirty, sinful, unworthy and shameful (I was one of those children).
But I was one of the "lucky" ones for I never suffered the pain, degradation and anguish of sexual abuse. Yet I know many, many children that were groomed for and sexually abused and raped by these predators that covered their crimes behind a collar, because they knew that the authorities (both clerical and civil) would never take the word of some working class brat over the word of a respectable middleclass ordained man of the cloth.

The abuse was widespread within the church. As children we knew what was going on and some of us knew which priests and brothers to avoid. The vast majority of clerics also knew what was going on but they choose to ignore it and to do absolutly nothing, the arch bishops, the bishops, the canons, the parish priest and the clergy, along with some police officers, politicians, social workers and medical staff, lied, covered up, and protected the perpetrators and branded the innoccent victims and their parents who dared to speak out as liars and guilty sinners.
Please read the report, you can find it in all its harrowing details here
Murphy Report part 1

Part 2 Here

Joe, did you ever hear of the concept of "mental reservation"? Well I never did until I read this report, It seems it's an RC doctrine which allows you to tell "untruths" without being guilty of telling lies. Below is Cardinal Connell's explanation of how this piece of bullshit works and how he justified his cover-up and protection of the clerical filth (ten percent of priests in the Dublin dioceses) that spent half a century defiling the children that they were entrusted to protect.

Read it and weep for the Catholic Church

"Well, the general teaching about mental reservation is that you are not permitted to tell a lie. On the other hand, you may be put in a position where you have to answer, and there may be circumstances in which you can use an ambiguous expression realising that the person who you are talking to will accept an untrue version of whatever it may be - permitting that to happen, not willing that it happened, that would be lying . . . So mental reservation is, in a sense, a way of answering without lying." Cardinal Connell

Personally I divorced myself from all this RC hypocracy a long time ago and I hope that I will be followed by droves of the congegation as they begin to realise how they and their children have been utterly betrayed by their church and their clergy over decades.

Fergus Russell

Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 29 Nov 09 - 03:38 AM

Jim Carroll:"...This is not an example of homosexuality; it is a case of abuse of spiritual authority and of negligence of duty towards children in care by church and state on a massive scale."

Two points:
#1 "...This is not an example of homosexuality.."??
You mean the Catholic Church has Women priests????

#2 "...it is a case of abuse of spiritual authority..."
Nothing spiritual about it at all...it's just homosexuality!

Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Nov 09 - 05:37 AM

Is it a factor that the priesthood was/is granted such deference in Ireland?
It seems that children were not believed when they accused priests, and the police and authorities were also so deferential that they colluded in the cover up.

Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Nov 09 - 06:01 AM

"Nothing spiritual about it at all...it's just homosexuality!"
If the blame for this is it be laid at the door of homosexulality, then hetrosexual rape, prostitution, sex-trafficking, snuff.... is caused by hetrosexuality.
We are all answerable for our behaviour, no matter what our sexual orientation and shame on those who who would manipulate what happened to these children into a homophobic campaign.
Similar events not covered by the reports took place in the Magdalene Laundries against young women.
Keith:
"Is it a factor that the priesthood was/is granted such deference in Ireland"
It certainly was the case - hopefully it no longer is.
Charlie;
Fergie puts what I believe in a nutshell - read the Ryan Report for a full background.
"liberal", offend no one, political correctness."
All of these were named as the cause of the downturn of society by the same church and at the same time as their priests were raping children.
The mystification and denigration of sex by the church and by 'moralists' like yourself did far more damage to our society than did openness and permissiveness; take these events as an example (you don't even have to go back as far as the corrupt Victorian 'moralists' ).
And before you lay this at the door of Catholicism take a look at the behaviour of other religions and cults, Christian or otherwise.
When I was young you were always warned to look out for the scoutmaster!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 29 Nov 09 - 06:27 AM

Jim:"..If the blame for this is it be laid at the door of homosexulality, then hetrosexual rape, prostitution, sex-trafficking, snuff.... is caused by hetrosexuality."

What are you doing? First you bring this up, about priests and children, now you're trying to dismiss it, by saying whatever you're trying to say(?)!!. This is homosexual pedophilia..clearly. It is what it is!! As so far as the state, not pursuing it, that has more to do with money, power and influence of the church, and a mutual dependency they have on each other. In other words, corruption!

Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Nov 09 - 06:59 AM

There is no indication in any of the reports that any of the perpetrators of these crimes were homosexuals any more than there is evidence that men incarcerated in prison who indulge in homosexual practices are homosexuals - it is purely a case of what was available to the people concerned - unless you have evidence otherwise
Magdalene Laundries???
As far as the State's role, it is purely the power weilded by the church, anything else is a diversion.
JIm Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 29 Nov 09 - 08:16 AM

When I was young (and I believe things haven't changed much) molestation of children happened in the Southern Baptist church I grew up in. I don't think these predators attach themselves to any particular religion. They simply look for places where they may be placed in a position which facilitates access to their prey.

In the last decade, the culture of silence by the victims is breaking. As more come forward in every place whether it be church, school, scout group, etc., then the culture of silence and cover up that protects the predators will also weaken.

It is perhaps that children/adults abused by catholic priests are more inclined to come forward because there have been a number of previous public revelations. I am also inclined to think that southern baptists are more controlled by fear of being rejected by their group. It was almost cultish / slavish dedication to the church in my experience. We are probably more brain washed at the young adult age than Catholic children. Couple that with the lesson that God only puts on a person as much as s/he can cope with and you get the feeling that this is part of God's plan and you just have to take it and God will help you through.

It is also my opinion for what it is worth that if you do the crime you must suffer the penalties of state and no organisation should be able to protect you. How the Catholic church is allowed to deal with such abuses in house is beyond me.

The offending priest must be given over to the courts immediately. There is nothing stopping the church from ministering to their fallen while they are under state correction.

Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Nov 09 - 09:38 AM

"It is also my opinion for what it is worth that if you do the crime you must suffer the penalties of state"
Couldn't agree more Virginia.
There have been calls for those involved in abuse to be prosecuted, but the situation at the present time is unresolved.
One bishop who was singled out in the report for having persistantly covered up abuse is still in office; he has apologised for his behaviour but has refused to resign.
Despite all the revelations, the church still weilds considerable power here - it remains to be seen whether that will continue to be the case. The role of the Vatican in all this hasn't even begun to be debated as far as I can see.
I suggest that logging in to the Irish Times site should keep people in touch with what's happening; they seem to have given the most comprehensive coverage so far. Some of the letters they have received from abuse victims have been extremely moving.
Jim Carroll
Am I right in believing that there have been cases of clerical abouse in Canada?

Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 29 Nov 09 - 01:19 PM

Jim:"There is no indication in any of the reports that any of the perpetrators of these crimes were homosexuals any more than there..."

Grown MEN molesting young BOYS ,indicates exactly what it is! Don't let your 'political views' be 'over generous' and blind your eyes. It is, what it is.

Homosexuality: Same gender sex
Pedophilia: Sex with minors
No editorializing about it!

Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Nov 09 - 01:33 PM

You are determined to make the suffering of these children a platform for your homophobia.
It takes all kinds I suppose!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 29 Nov 09 - 01:35 PM

Yes, I for one find it pretty offensive.

Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Nov 09 - 04:26 PM

Jim and Crow Sister, if you were really serious about finding out why these children were abused, you would not find the views expressed on this thread "pretty offensive".
You are a pair of frauds.....Jim started the thread quite clearly to take a kick at the Catholic Church, and Sister is more offended that homosexuals "denigrated" than in trying to find why this abuse occurred.

As I stated earlier the Church behaved in a self serving manner by conducting a cover up of the abuse and should be condemned unequivocally for that.....but the fact remains, that the abuse was carried out by individual priests who must answer for their personal crimes.

If the American figures are replicated in Ireland(if they are ever published) the smoking gun points fairly and squarely at homosexual abuse of teenage boys being the biggest factor.

In my opinion, Michealr is correct and the celibacy rule has attracted large numbers of homosexuals into the priesthood, thisa fact being admitted by a high ranking official of the Catholic Church a few months ago
If this practice is to be stamped out, the Church must abandon the Celibacy rule, allow priests to marry and live a natural life, which would mean procreation and the nurturing of their own children.

Perhaps then, children would be viewed as something other than sex objects.

Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Nov 09 - 04:34 PM

Apologies to Jim, I meant to say..."to take a kick at religion", rather than just the Catholic Church.

Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children
From: MartinRyan
Date: 29 Nov 09 - 04:59 PM

Joe

When you say that four Dublin archbishops systematically covered up the offenses, that is four out of how many?

Four, I'm afraid. This was a relatively restricted investigation of the Dublin archdiocese over that period. That said, there is little to suggest that things were any better elsewhere - rather to the contrary. The Dublin archdiocese, with a huge population, had a considerable number of auxiliary bishops, many of whom were involved in the day-to-day handling of these matters. Quite a few of them were then promoted (and no - I'm not implying this was why) to bishoprics elsewhere in Ireland. Reports from several dioceses suggest that their attitudes did not change.

The key turning point will come, if at all, when bishops start apologising not, as at present, "for any failures" on their part, but for the simple immorality of what they did in protecting abusers. It now seems likely that there will be resignations in the near future. Again, any mealy-mouthedness in how these are announced will only prolong the agony of those who still believe.

Regards

p.s. As it happens, though long since an unbeliever, I spent several years in a sort of youth "praetorian guard" of the late Archbishop John Charles McQuaid, the first in the run of four investigated. He drove (or, more correctly, was driven in) a very distinctive Citroen car (?? model - sort of shark-fronted!). His priests were under instruction to wear a hat all times in public. One of them told me, years later, that the few who had cars at the time (late 50's?), used to keep a hat on the passenger seat - and watch out for John Charles's car! Otherwise you, or your parish priest, were likely to receive a stern warning from archbishops palace in Clonliffe!

p.p.s
One of the aspects which has yet received little if any comment is that a map of parishes where known paedophile priests operated is heavily biassed towards working class areas in the city - and relatively remote rural areas in the Wicklow mountains. There are a number of possible explanations/interpretations of this - but it is surely worth analysis.

Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children
From: ard mhacha
Date: 29 Nov 09 - 05:12 PM

Smashed below the waterline, the "good" ship RC is going down fast, and the Catholic religion is not alone in this,all institutions and religious bodies throughout the world are guilty.

Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children
From: MartinRyan
Date: 29 Nov 09 - 05:27 PM

I hadn't read Fergie's post when I posted above. I know whereof he speaks.

Regards

Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children
From: Smokey.
Date: 29 Nov 09 - 05:59 PM

It seems pretty obvious that some proportion of these priests were gay, but it should also be noted that not all of the abuse was sexual. That said, I don't think anyone is actually claiming either that all priests are gay, or that all gays are child molesters, or that all child molesters are Catholic.

Fergie - Thanks very much indeed for your post and the links.

Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children
From: Smokey.
Date: 29 Nov 09 - 06:11 PM

Correction:

The Dublin report is specifically about sexual abuse - I was assuming it covered all abuse, like the Ryan report.

Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 29 Nov 09 - 06:37 PM

Jim:"You are determined to make the suffering of these children a platform for your homophobia.
It takes all kinds I suppose!!"

Okay, you win!...Now what do YOU call grown men having sex with young boys???????

P.S. I only defined the terms as definitions. You spouting the 'homophobes' line, is your ASSUMPTION!...based on YOUR bias, IS IT NOT?

Perhaps if you're having a hard time reconciling the facts with your spin, maybe you should address YOUR thinking!

I'm Clear!

Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children
From: Joe Offer
Date: 29 Nov 09 - 06:55 PM

Fergie, it's interesting that you say that the clergy in Ireland "were almost exclusively the sons of the middle classes and wealthy farmers." For a hundred years, my diocese of Sacramento, California, had predominantly Irish-born priests. Most came from lower-class families, and my experience with them has been generally wonderful. I wonder if that was the practice, to export the lower-class priests.

During my tour of Ireland several years ago, I was struck by the severity of Irish Catholicism. We American Catholics are generally a pretty happy bunch (and not prone to blind obedience), but the Catholic Church seemed dour and dreary and rigid in Ireland. I have to admit that it did not seem like a healthy or joyful atmosphere. "Authority" and "obedience" were terms that seemed to fit well into the Irish Catholic Church.

There are some American Catholics who long for that haughty piety and misplaced respect for authority. I've never experienced that side of the Catholic Church. It was around me much of the time, but I've always had somewhere else I could choose.

The Catholic schools I attended, and the parishes I belonged to, were wonderful, warm, healthy places. My parents wouldn't tolerate anything less, and neither do I. There are many priests in this diocese who have received a piece of my mind. Even some good priests have ended up in my line of fire. As an ex-seminarian, I consider it my duty to speak out when things aren't right. And generally, I've been respected for doing that.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children
From: michaelr
Date: 29 Nov 09 - 07:05 PM

ake, you are twisting my words. My point was that celibacy is at the root of tyhe problem, NOT homosexuality.

Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 29 Nov 09 - 07:33 PM

Joe, I too, was raised Catholic, went to a Catholic school, till the eighth grade, and went to public school after that. Since then, and through different experiences in my life, I left the Catholic Church, and am no longer a Catholic, in fact so far, on here, I have not described myself, as belonging to any religion, though I am well read on several.

I too, have found, that when I look back, to the present, that Catholics were indeed, a warm, family oriented group of people, and I am thankful for the great, disciplined education I received in their school. For that alone, I am grateful to my parents who afforded me that privilege! When, in school there, it was severe in the discipline, and I can't say there was any 'vibe' of clergy, 'hitting' on the kids.

When my brother graduated, he went on to the seminary, to become a priest. After a couple of years, he left and gave us stories of things that were going on there, between several of the seminarians.
Later, we found out, when he told us, it was homosexual in nature..and that bothered him. To hear this was beyond belief, for most the Catholics, in our Parrish, so he kept it under wraps..because it was just 'too weird'. This was in 1964-65.

As a rule, the Catholic clergy is not about homosexuality, but there ARE some bad apples in the bunch. When. in the Archdiocese of Los Angeles, where I grew up, the lists of clergy were released, three of the priests, that were at our Parrish were on the list, and the fourth was the Monseigneur, who was there for over 30 years!

Nonetheless, the Families were good people, close knit and extremely supportive of each other, through the years, for a great many things. I have no regrets going to that school, or knowing the clergy that I knew.
Regards,
GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children
From: MartinRyan
Date: 29 Nov 09 - 07:38 PM

I think Fergie's analysis of the class structure of mid-20th c. Irish clergy is perhaps a little oversimplified. For example, as I'm sure he knows only too well, the infamous "Christian Brothers" were frequently sons of small farmers and relatively low income families. Not surprisingly, there was an underlying class structure within the religious orders/diocesan clergy which impacted on their distribution through both schools and parishes.

As for exporting priests, I can remember being struck at the extent to which in the '60's and '70's, priests with any initiative (and threfore regarded as troublesome) ended up on the "foreign missions". As for America, it is clear from the report that a number of offenders were moved to parishes there - without anyone being told of their history. You seem to have been lucky, Joe!

Joe comments on the "severity" he observed in Irish catholicism when he visited here. That was very recently - five years ago or so? Believe me (and Fergie) those days were a shining beacon of enlightenment compared with our schooldays!

Regards

Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children
From: Alice
Date: 29 Nov 09 - 09:56 PM

Every time I look at this thread title it makes me sad.

It makes me sad for all the children who have been abused, whether in a church environment or not. It makes me sad for my own childhood that was lived in terror because of the way we were treated by the priests and nuns at the Catholic schools I went to in the 50's and 60's.

I'm glad you had a different experience, Joe. I'm sad that so many others had a painful experience. I tell people I'm still recovering from my Catholic school childhood, because even knowing why it triggers things for me, it doesn't stop the anxiety that comes up and the fear in situations that remind me of the all-powerful authority figures who held eternal damnation (or the belt or ruler) over our heads.

Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children
From: GUEST,Goose Gander (not amused for once)
Date: 29 Nov 09 - 11:13 PM

I was going to avoid this one, but it turns out I do have something to say. Here goes: I attended Catholic School in the 1970s in the US. My classmates were a diverse bunch, and I learned that we were all equal in the eyes of God. Outside of school, it was a different story. I frequently heard racist comments from adults, usually about 'mexicans' (anyone of hispanic origin) and how they were 'ruining' America. It never resonated with me because I learned and experienced the exact opposite at school. My teachers were Maryknoll Sisters, many of whom had served in Latin America, siding with the poorest of the poor against the (for all intents and purposes) fascist governments that ruled those nations in those years (with the support of the US government, I might add). That was my experience of the Catholic Church, and it was both formative and positive for me.

I offer no excuses and I have no sympathy for the guilty parties referenced by Jim in his opening post. But to equate a few criminals with the whole of the Catholic Church (or Christianity in general) is, I'm afraid, no different than blaming all Muslims for 9-11.

Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children
From: Smokey.
Date: 29 Nov 09 - 11:24 PM

"to equate a few criminals with the whole of the Catholic Church (or Christianity in general) is, I'm afraid, no different than blaming all Muslims for 9-11."

Very true, but no-one has done that here.

Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 30 Nov 09 - 12:41 AM

From the above posts, including 'Smokey's', I think the blame can be squarely leveled at those individuals who actually committed the crimes, rather than the whole of the Catholic Church, in general, though there are elements in their teachings that could permeate such behavior, but it certainly is NOT a primary cause for individual homosexual pedophile rapists, to act out their fantasies, at such a devastating cost, to the victims!

Nor does it completely discredit the many good works that the Catholic Church has done, insofar, as hospitals, schools, orphanages, and charitable works in various communities.
GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children
From: michaelr
Date: 30 Nov 09 - 01:05 AM

I'd like someone in this discussion to address the point I made a while ago:

celibacy is at the root of the problem, NOT homosexuality.

Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children
From: Smokey.
Date: 30 Nov 09 - 01:20 AM

The Church provided the opportunity for these people to carry out this abuse though, and in many cases helped the perpetrators to evade justice, so assisting further offences. 'Aiding and abetting' is, I think, the legal term. They would appear to have knowingly let this stuff happen for a very long time without doing much about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children
From: Smokey.
Date: 30 Nov 09 - 01:23 AM

Just my opinion, but I can't see how celibacy OR homosexuality could turn someone into a child abuser.

Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 30 Nov 09 - 01:38 AM

michaelr:"I'd like someone in this discussion to address the point I made a while ago:
celibacy is at the root of the problem, NOT homosexuality."

Okay, I'll address it.

1. If you're horney you can always jerk off!

2. If you find a cute nun, you can do it discreetly,, which some do.

3. If you can't find a cute nun, and want to keep it discrete, and in the church, find an ugly one.

4. If you go without the clergy garb, you can find someone in a bar.

5. You can commit adultery with a parishioner.

6. All of the above, are a cure for celibacy.

7. You can find another priest or young boy, and do homosexual things with them.

8.All of the above are still 'cures' for celibacy, but number 7, is now a matter of homosexuality, and those who do that, either are, or become homosexuals, due merely to what they are doing, with others of the same sex. When you do it with a young boy you are a homosexual pedophile.

Now that wasn't too complicated, was it???

Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 30 Nov 09 - 02:20 AM

Can you guys stop the homosexual thing for a while? To begin with it it doesn't do justice to the suffering of the women who were also abused by priests covered in the Murphy report.