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Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.

DigiTrad:
THE BALLAD OF LADY MONDEGREEN


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Margo 05 Jun 99 - 02:38 PM
Philippa 05 Jun 99 - 02:43 PM
Mark Roffe 06 Jun 99 - 03:30 AM
The Shambles 06 Jun 99 - 07:21 AM
Dan Calder 06 Jun 99 - 08:58 AM
Jeri 06 Jun 99 - 10:25 AM
Margo 06 Jun 99 - 12:59 PM
Ted from Australia 06 Jun 99 - 06:18 PM
Margo 06 Jun 99 - 06:40 PM
Ted from Australia 06 Jun 99 - 06:50 PM
bob schwarer 06 Jun 99 - 07:47 PM
Matthew B. 06 Jun 99 - 08:26 PM
Margo 07 Jun 99 - 01:08 AM
The Shambles 07 Jun 99 - 09:18 AM
Bert 07 Jun 99 - 09:44 AM
annamill 07 Jun 99 - 09:57 AM
Margo 07 Jun 99 - 10:48 AM
Bert 07 Jun 99 - 11:06 AM
Jeri 07 Jun 99 - 11:33 AM
Easy Rider 07 Jun 99 - 12:11 PM
Fadac 07 Jun 99 - 12:30 PM
Bert 07 Jun 99 - 12:45 PM
Jeri 07 Jun 99 - 01:00 PM
Bert 07 Jun 99 - 01:12 PM
Jeri 07 Jun 99 - 01:25 PM
Rich and Dee (inactive) 07 Jun 99 - 02:09 PM
Fadac 07 Jun 99 - 02:57 PM
Peter Fisher 07 Jun 99 - 04:40 PM
Den 07 Jun 99 - 07:06 PM
Margo 07 Jun 99 - 08:23 PM
dick greenhaus 07 Jun 99 - 11:40 PM
ddw in windsor 08 Jun 99 - 10:49 PM
Lonesome EJ 09 Jun 99 - 02:04 AM
Bert 09 Jun 99 - 11:18 AM
Kris 09 Jun 99 - 12:04 PM
sharon 09 Jun 99 - 12:07 PM
walrus 09 Jun 99 - 02:05 PM
Richard Bridge 09 Jun 99 - 09:26 PM
Mark Roffe 10 Jun 99 - 01:30 AM
Bert 10 Jun 99 - 08:56 AM
KingBrilliant 10 Jun 99 - 09:38 AM
Margo 10 Jun 99 - 10:54 AM
Mark Roffe 10 Jun 99 - 01:11 PM
Richard Bridge 10 Jun 99 - 01:25 PM
Penny S. 10 Jun 99 - 03:13 PM
T in Oklahoma 10 Jun 99 - 04:16 PM
Jeri 10 Jun 99 - 05:06 PM
Penny S 10 Jun 99 - 05:12 PM
Jeri 10 Jun 99 - 05:27 PM
Bert C 10 Jun 99 - 06:13 PM
Mark Roffe 10 Jun 99 - 08:55 PM
Bill D 10 Jun 99 - 10:32 PM
okscout@cwix.com 10 Jun 99 - 11:15 PM
Lonesome EJ 11 Jun 99 - 12:27 AM
bseed(charleskratz) 11 Jun 99 - 02:26 AM
Barbara 11 Jun 99 - 02:49 AM
Barbara 11 Jun 99 - 02:51 AM
KingBrilliant 11 Jun 99 - 04:52 AM
Steve Parkes 11 Jun 99 - 08:27 AM
Steve Parkes 11 Jun 99 - 08:30 AM
Bert 11 Jun 99 - 08:50 AM
Penny S. 11 Jun 99 - 12:56 PM
Jeremiah McCaw 11 Jun 99 - 01:21 PM
Mark Roffe 11 Jun 99 - 02:10 PM
Bert 11 Jun 99 - 02:27 PM
Margo 11 Jun 99 - 04:56 PM
Fadac 11 Jun 99 - 05:19 PM
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Peter Fisher 14 Jun 99 - 12:06 PM
JOField 14 Jun 99 - 02:16 PM
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The Shambles 14 Jun 99 - 02:23 PM
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Mr Happy 31 Oct 02 - 03:52 AM
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Jim Dixon 31 Oct 02 - 09:58 AM
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Flash Company 09 Aug 05 - 07:00 AM
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Subject: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: Margo
Date: 05 Jun 99 - 02:38 PM

The Hogeye thread got me thinking about misheard and misspoken language: Also listed in Hugill's book are versions of Hogeye man being Hawkeye man and Ox-eye man. The letters G and K are made in the same place: one "voiced" and the other "plosive".

The biblical saw "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to get into the kingdom of heaven" is actually not the original wording. As I understand it (please correct me if I'm wrong) the word camel is a misunderstanding of the Hebrew word for rope, which when spoken sounds like the word "camel". But even with the wrong word, the saying makes sense, and is accepted. Of course, the rope is being compared to a thread. Ahhhhh, yes. The rope/thread analagy makes a lot more sense, doesn't it?

Then there is the Shanty "Row, Bullies Row." I read that the person who collected songs and wrote them down misunderstood the words Roll Bullies Roll. The ship pitches and rolls, so roll makes more sense to me. I choose to sing "roll" myself, being stubborn.

I'd love to hear your examples of such misunderstood or misspoken lyrics. (I love etemology, don't know why).

Margarita


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: Philippa
Date: 05 Jun 99 - 02:43 PM

see the mistakes thread for more 'Mondegreens'


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: Mark Roffe
Date: 06 Jun 99 - 03:30 AM

"The spitting image" of someone is actually "the spit and image" of them, I think. Is that right?

I've also become accepting of "a mute point" instead of "a moot point."

Bark Woof


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: The Shambles
Date: 06 Jun 99 - 07:21 AM

Vicious circle, becomes, vicious CYCLE!

Although when walking in pedestrian only areas and avoiding speeding cyclists, it gives the phrase another meaning?


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: Dan Calder
Date: 06 Jun 99 - 08:58 AM

Now it's almost always "Music hath charms to soothe the savage BEAST."

Dan


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: Jeri
Date: 06 Jun 99 - 10:25 AM

I suppose this sort of thing was bound to happen in an age where nuculer weapons threatened to wreck havoc upon the earth and people could care less, irregardless of the cost.

Obviously, I cannot think of any examples of song lyrics where Mondegreens have been folk-processed into the song.


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: Margo
Date: 06 Jun 99 - 12:59 PM

Yes Dan, I understand it was originally the savage BREAST.

Mark, What did the saying mean, the spit and image?


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: Ted from Australia
Date: 06 Jun 99 - 06:18 PM

"One fell swoop" has become "One foul swoop"
(I really hate that)

Regards Ted


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: Margo
Date: 06 Jun 99 - 06:40 PM

I've never heard "foul" swoop. Although I suppose it could be "fowl" swoop. (Dive bombing chickens?)

Margarita


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: Ted from Australia
Date: 06 Jun 99 - 06:50 PM

Margarita,
here in Oz it would have to be a "Chook swoop" :-)>
Regards Ted


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: bob schwarer
Date: 06 Jun 99 - 07:47 PM

A "mute point" is something you don't want to talk about. Bob S.


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: Matthew B.
Date: 06 Jun 99 - 08:26 PM

Well, I just read this one thing in one swell foop.

Actually, as a former trumpet player, I can tell you that there are some mutes that come to a point at the end, so that's a "mute point" I guess.


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: Margo
Date: 07 Jun 99 - 01:08 AM

Very funny, Matthew. I used to be a trumpet player once. I didn't get far with it, though. I was told by another trumpet player that it was because my front teeth are like Buicks. Really, they're not that big. But I do better at singing. Perhaps that's because when I sing, my teeth are a moot issue. They are also mute.:o)

Margarita


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: The Shambles
Date: 07 Jun 99 - 09:18 AM

when I moved here I thought all the 'kids' knew somone called Slater.

I later found out that they were saying 'see you later'.

SLATER.


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: Bert
Date: 07 Jun 99 - 09:44 AM

One that REALLY GETS TO ME is 'second of all'. It should be 'second of all but one' because 'first of all' has already taken care of the first one.
and soon momentarily will mean soon.

I agree with jeri about 'could care less'

Where has all the logic gone?

Bert


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: annamill
Date: 07 Jun 99 - 09:57 AM

There used to be a phrase meaning a person has a bad reputaion which was "a bad rep". Now everyone says "a bad rap", like a rap sheet at the police station. It seems noone remembers the other version at all.

annap


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: Margo
Date: 07 Jun 99 - 10:48 AM

Yes, Bert. It should be "I couldn't care less". I had some friends who would say, "jeat? No, Jew?" They were saying "Did you eat? No, did you?" It's amazing how a little lazy tongue can change an expression. I have a friend who insists on saying things her way. She likes to say "Flahita" instead of Fajita. I've corrected her and she tells me to leave her alone. Hmmm........good thing her daughter is an excellent speller.

Margarita


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: Bert
Date: 07 Jun 99 - 11:06 AM

Another one is 'Artesian' instead of 'Artisan' - Well, well!

Bert


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: Jeri
Date: 07 Jun 99 - 11:33 AM

OK, Bert - I feel a quibble coming on.
If you're giving examples, you come up with all of them. Then you talk about the first. This is the first of all. Then you talk about the second. Out of all the examples, this one's the second, so it's the second of all.

There were five examples of my pet peeves in my previous post. The second (of all five) was "wreck havoc."


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: Easy Rider
Date: 07 Jun 99 - 12:11 PM

Does anyone know where the expression, "The Whole Nine Yards", comes from and what it means?

I do. I'll post the answer, in a couple of days, after everybody has given it their best shot.

EZR


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: Fadac
Date: 07 Jun 99 - 12:30 PM

Nine Yards, I have heard all sorts of basics for this. My favorite? A ship rigged sailing vessel, has three masts, each with three square sails. The top bit of wood is called a yard. In the days of fighting sail, people would try a fake out the other guy. Most of the battle would be jocking for position, so when the ship changed directions, the yards had to be trimed for the new wind direction. So shifting all the sail was to commit all nine yards.

I have also heard the 9 yard referance to length of a machine gun belt in the WWII fighters, So when they shot "the whole 9 yards." they were out of ammo. However, I thinkg the sailing referance is older.

My favorite miss heard is "There is a bathroom on the right". Very handy but the song really says, "There is a bad moon on the right." Hmmm, nice, indicating West bound here in the US. However now quite as usefull as all those bathrooms.

Fadac


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: Bert
Date: 07 Jun 99 - 12:45 PM

Jeri,
It seems you have some misconception of what the expression 'first of all' really means. You are assuming that 'first of all' is an ordinal statement which it isn't. It is a 'cardinal' statement, it makes the prime position special and exclusive.
If you wan't to talk ordinally there are adequate words for doing so, 'firstly', 'secondly' and so on.

Bert.


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: Jeri
Date: 07 Jun 99 - 01:00 PM

But what if I mean it as an ordinary statement? (No, I don't understand what you're saying.)

By the way, the word "nice" originally meant "foolish."


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: Bert
Date: 07 Jun 99 - 01:12 PM

Jeri,

If you don't mean to assign any special importance to the first position then you don't need to say 'first of all'. You can simply say 'first' which sets the stage for there being a 'second'. When you say 'first of all' you are saying that this case is special and is of prime importance. It stands above 'all' the others. If a thing is second, it logically cannot stand 'above all the others', because you just said the first one did that when you said 'first of ALL'.

Bert.


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: Jeri
Date: 07 Jun 99 - 01:25 PM

Thanks, Bert! All is clear now.


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: Rich and Dee (inactive)
Date: 07 Jun 99 - 02:09 PM

Hi,

And let's not forget the ever-popular "for all intensive purposes...", which should be "for all intents and purposes..."

Rich


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: Fadac
Date: 07 Jun 99 - 02:57 PM

Oops, In USA, moon to right would say East bound. Still not as usefull as all the bathrooms.

Must be Monday, All bas aswords.

Fadac


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: Peter Fisher
Date: 07 Jun 99 - 04:40 PM

The word literally has now come to mean its exact opposite, figuratively, as when the newscaster this morning asserted that the Kosovar refugees were literally being baked by the heat.


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: Den
Date: 07 Jun 99 - 07:06 PM

Old Mrs McCormack used to call us juvenile detergents when we kicked our soccer ball into her back garden. She also thought the postman spoke with a funny accident (he was East Indian) and she once had to get oinkment for an ear infection.


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: Margo
Date: 07 Jun 99 - 08:23 PM

Ah yes! First of all, for all intensive purposes, there's a bathroom on the right! Leave it to FADAC to know about the nine yards, the old salt! I guess his knowing the answer right away took the wind out of your sails, eh Easy Rider? NyukNyukNyuk FADAC, you really wreaked havoc with Easy Rider's guessing game! Margarita


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 07 Jun 99 - 11:40 PM

Folk etymology is fun, but seldom reliable. I've heard "nine yards" as referring to the amount of brocade on a roll; also as the contents of a concrete ready-mix truck. Does anyone have an early date for use of the phrase?


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: ddw in windsor
Date: 08 Jun 99 - 10:49 PM

Is it really "Bad moon on the right"? All these years I've thought it was "bad moon on the rise."

I'll have to dig out the old CCR vinyl when I get home.....

ddw


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 09 Jun 99 - 02:04 AM

And when did the great descriptive phrase "buck naked" turn into "butt naked"? Also, I now hear as many people saying "supposably" as I do "supposedly", although this is a great test to separate the idiots from the rest of us.

LEJ


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: Bert
Date: 09 Jun 99 - 11:18 AM

LEJ, anyone trying to 'separate the idiots from the rest of us' is going to find that rather difficult here.

Bert.


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: Kris
Date: 09 Jun 99 - 12:04 PM

I cannot abide it when people say 'pacific' in place of 'specific'. (Tho' I used to horribly guilty of constantly saying 'spexo' instead of 'I expect so')

Kris


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: sharon
Date: 09 Jun 99 - 12:07 PM

My mother in law is always crocheting another "african." even though my husband tells her that it is impossible to do!


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: walrus
Date: 09 Jun 99 - 02:05 PM

I've just caught this thread. Going back to Margarita's post on camels and needles, as I heard the story camel IS the correct translation but it should be "the eye of the needle" (not a needle). Many years ago I was told that "the eye of the needle" was a name for what we would call a "judas gate", the small pedestrian door in a much larger set of gates (such as the gates of a town); a camel COULD pass through the eye of the needle, but only with a lot of hard work, persuasion and without its burden.

Walrus


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Jun 99 - 09:26 PM

The only correct use of "hopefully" is as in "It is better to travel hopefully than to arrive".

First - not "firstly".

But can anyone tell me what "I should coco" ought to be and why?


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: Mark Roffe
Date: 10 Jun 99 - 01:30 AM

"All's I know's it's a doggy dog world."

Margarita, I think to be the very "spit and image" of someone is to be comprised of the same stuff and to look jes alike. But I've never seen a "spitting image" (although I have seen a fountain statue that peed).
Bark


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: Bert
Date: 10 Jun 99 - 08:56 AM

'I should coco' is rhyming slang for 'I should hope so'.
Kind of a crude rhyme but a very popular expression in SE England.

Bert.


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: KingBrilliant
Date: 10 Jun 99 - 09:38 AM

No way Bert!

"I should coco" (or "Ice your cocoa" as it has been memorably rendered) means the same thing as "Not on your Nellie" and implies a certain amount of derision.

Rhyming slang for 'I should hope so'? I should coco!

Kris


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: Margo
Date: 10 Jun 99 - 10:54 AM

Bark Woof, of course you'd think it's a doggy dog world! That's funny. I never thought of that. Have you actually heard anyone say that? Hmmm........must have been a juvenile detergent.

Den, I know of another lady that makes up words like that, but unfortunately I can't think of anything she says offhand.

KingBrilliant, I'm not familiar with "Not on your Nellie". Is it to say you're wrong?

Margarita


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: Mark Roffe
Date: 10 Jun 99 - 01:11 PM

Margarita,
Yes, Marita Malone used to say "it's a doggy dog world." This is the same person whose retort to a contingent of Save the Whale folks was "My mother died and I had to get used to that -- why should I worry about the whales?" (which actually bears thinking about). By the way, Marita loved the whales; it's just that that was her unique way of comparing losses in her life...

Bark


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Jun 99 - 01:25 PM

I know that "I should coco" is an impolite (and class-specific) southern English expression of disbelief or rebuttal. I am from the relevant region. But I am very well over twenty and the first time I heard it was about 15 years ago. At first I thought it was "I should, cocoa" referring to social exclusion of the speaker on grounds of colour. It was explained to me that it was "I should, Coco" referring to Coco the clown and therefore implying that the rejected statement was laughable. But neither is a really satisfying explanation, like the various theories about "Berkeley Hunt" or "Berkshire Hunt".

Any more bids?


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: Penny S.
Date: 10 Jun 99 - 03:13 PM

I read somewhere that spitting image came from "splitting image", and referred to the way that the two sides of a split log are mirror images of each other (the same would apply to split rock), but I haven't been able to find the reference.

Penny


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: T in Oklahoma
Date: 10 Jun 99 - 04:16 PM

In "The Wreck of the Old 97", the words "lost his airbrakes" were misinterpreted as "lost his average." It is often heard with the latter words.


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: Jeri
Date: 10 Jun 99 - 05:06 PM

I looked up "spitting image" at this site - http://www.itools.com/research-it/ This looks like a great site!

Main Entry: spitting image
Function: noun
Etymology: alteration of spit and image
Date: 1901

I still don't know why "spit and image" means identical, unless it has to do with cleaning a mirror off.


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: Penny S
Date: 10 Jun 99 - 05:12 PM

Brewer's Dictionary of Phrase and Fable suggests that the spit part is based on the idea that what is spat out resembles the person who spat it.

Penny


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: Jeri
Date: 10 Jun 99 - 05:27 PM

Excuse me - YUCK!


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: Bert C
Date: 10 Jun 99 - 06:13 PM

One of my pet peeves is how the word "nuclear" comes out something like "nukyuhler". Whether you're for it or against it -- you still should be able to pronounce it!

Bert C


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: Mark Roffe
Date: 10 Jun 99 - 08:55 PM

Jeri and Penny, thanks for explaining that spit & image thing. I'll check out that site and that dictionary.

Bert, I agree with you on that one. One of my favorite community radio stations has this guy who is very knowledgable about nuclear energy and nuclear weapons, but he always says "nuke-u-ler" which makes him lose credibility.


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Jun 99 - 10:32 PM

ok, folks..especially those in England and Australia, help me out on this one....every now & then I hear someone say, in order to express absolute agreement with you...

"fuckin' A" (long "A' sound)...but 30 years ago, the first time I ever heard it, it was "fuckin AYE" ..meaning 'absolutely YES'...

now- am I right that the ignorant have seen 'aye' in print and could not pronounce it, and so corrupted it? Who knows anything or the origin? (sounds veddy British or Aussie, to me)


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: okscout@cwix.com
Date: 10 Jun 99 - 11:15 PM

I've said that for years; who knew?

Nancy


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 11 Jun 99 - 12:27 AM

In Denver, we have a local diamond seller named Tom Shane who prides himself on his knowledge of all forms of jewelry, but he pronounces it "joo-la-ree." Drives me crazy...


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: bseed(charleskratz)
Date: 11 Jun 99 - 02:26 AM

Here's one that really fits this thread, because it's almost universally used: Parameter for perimeter (we're talking boundary or limit, right?) --seed


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: Barbara
Date: 11 Jun 99 - 02:49 AM

LEJ, If that Tom Shane dude lives in Denver, then he ships his monotone commercials to Portland OR, too. I used him recently as an example of someone who is really tone-deaf.
I wonder if "spit and image" has to do with how God made Adam (out of mud and spit,wasn't it?). Something of Himself, and clay?
One that bugs me is all these dang weathercasters who say either "tem-pa-chur" or "tem-per-shur". Or "ly-berry books".
I say iron "I-ern" and my daughter says "I-run". My husband's British mother pronounces "four" differently than "for".
Family reversals include the aformentioned "swell foop", "twinders bine", "poffee cot", "capsut", "Shunsine", and "Shize and rine".
Blessings,
Barbara


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: Barbara
Date: 11 Jun 99 - 02:51 AM

I forgot "bubber rands".
Sounds like a song, hey?
Bub, bub, bub, bubbubber rand,
Bub, bub, bub, bubbubber rand...
Oh, never mind.


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: KingBrilliant
Date: 11 Jun 99 - 04:52 AM

When my cousin (at age about 15) was asked what she wanted to be when she grew up she said "I want to be a bi-lingerral secketery"..... And, my husband says he's dilexic (I think he has a point there actually).

Kris


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 11 Jun 99 - 08:27 AM

Not on your Nellie: this is rhyming slang, somewhat contorted. Nellie = Nellie Duff = puff (R.S.) = life; so NOYN=not on your life.

Not related to sweet F.A. = sweet Fanny Adams. F.A. was an unfortunate young woman in the last century, who was murdered, cut up into small pieces, and dumped into a river, when she was washed away and never seen again; all that remained was, well, it has the initials F.A.

Have a look at World Wide Words for some heavy-duty etymology and stuff.

The former chariman of the UK's Central Electricity Generating Board (CEGB) could never pronounce "nuclear", either. There are a number of shibboleths, in the original sense of the word; "athlete" is another good one. It's a problem for some people (Scots, for instance) to pronounce words where "l" follows or precedes another consonant without putting in a vowel sound (a schwa, to save anyone the trouble).

Well, I'm glad I got that off my chest!

Steve


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 11 Jun 99 - 08:30 AM

Oh, I forgot to ask: what are Buick's teeth like then, Margarita?


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: Bert
Date: 11 Jun 99 - 08:50 AM

LEJ, in England Tom Shane would be called a jeweller and he would sell jewellery.

Bert


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: Penny S.
Date: 11 Jun 99 - 12:56 PM

But I bet he would still say jewlery


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: Jeremiah McCaw
Date: 11 Jun 99 - 01:21 PM

Back for a minute to mondegreens:

Guitar wiz Don Ross collects 'em. Says his favourite was when a guy came up to him & asked him if he'd do the song about the "fire engine guy". Much puzzlement. So the fellow repeated, the song about "Slow-talking Walter, the fire engine guy". Then it clicked.

Sing it with me, chilluns. Summon up Deep Purple's distorted fuzz guitar lead and sing,

"Smoke on the water, and fire in the sky"

I love hearing 'bout this stuff.


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: Mark Roffe
Date: 11 Jun 99 - 02:10 PM

But tell the truth now, you North Americans (of which I am one): do any of you really say "FebRUary?"
And I wonder how it's commonly pronounced in Ireland and England and Australia...

Bark


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: Bert
Date: 11 Jun 99 - 02:27 PM

When I went to school in England we were taught that you don't pronounce the 'R'

Bert.


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: Margo
Date: 11 Jun 99 - 04:56 PM

Oh heavens. I always say FebRurary.

A Bucik's teeth are big, though not protruding.

You know what really bugs me? The chief of police in Portland Oregon speaks well: He expresses himself succinctly and with the vocabulary of a well read man. BUT, he still says Dis and Dat for this and that. Yeah, he's black. But that's no excuse. He's got to be doing it on purpose. You know what I mean, Blessings Barbara?

Margarita


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: Fadac
Date: 11 Jun 99 - 05:19 PM

I was raised in Washington state. However, there it is pronounced WaRshington. Waashington (dragged out 'a' sound.) is the capital of the country. It isn't uncomon to here somebody say,

'I'm glad to be home in WaRshinton, I really don't like Waashington." But then we put our cloths into the WaRsher too.

-Fadac


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: campfire
Date: 11 Jun 99 - 08:25 PM

A woman I knew through work once told me that a friend of hers had gone to the doctor and was diagnosed with Senile Dimensions. I asked if she meant "dementia" and she insisted, no, "dimensions" -that it must have something to do with the size of her brain as she gets older.

Honest to whatever you beleive in, true story!

campfire


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Jun 99 - 06:53 PM

Well when I went to school in England it was FebRUary.

And surely "Spit and image" is sort of black magic, voodoo doll-ish


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: JOField
Date: 12 Jun 99 - 07:13 PM

Grating to my ear:

1. People who say enamored WITH [wrong]: enamored OF

2. Pronouncing mature as muh-tewer [wrong]

3. Saying EK-set-era [wrong]: etcetera

"Supposably" I find cute, because my son, now 34, used to say it when he was 9 or 10.

James.


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: LEJ
Date: 12 Jun 99 - 07:27 PM

But he stopped! It wouldn't be nearly as cute coming from a 34 yr old. How about "eXpresso" or "let me AKS you a question."


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: campfire
Date: 12 Jun 99 - 08:37 PM

Isn't the "Expresso" the bus that only stops at the major intersections?

We had a pastor at our church for a while that told us to "Ax the Lord"


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Jun 99 - 12:16 AM

there is a joke about the Texan who .."was driving across his 'wraynch' when his truch broke down, so he got out a 'wraynch' to fix it...but in the process he 'wraynched' his arm and got his hands dirty, so had to 'wraynch' them off with water...."

re:'wraynch'..you dont TYPE this story, you tell it...maybe there is a better spelling for this wonderful all-purpose word!


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: Barbara
Date: 13 Jun 99 - 12:14 PM

Shouldn't that be "wraynch them off with wawtuh"?


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: Peter Fisher
Date: 14 Jun 99 - 12:06 PM

There was a country song some time ago called "Don't it Make My Brown Eyes Blue." I caught one of my kids singing the catchy chorus as: "Donuts make my brown eyes blue."

Then there was the hit song of Kenny Rogers, Lucille. The chorus went: "You picked a fine time to leave me Lucille; four hungry children and a crop in the field." My son heard this as "Four hundred children and a crop in the field."

And my youngest one recently, on hearing that his older brother was going to the badlands of South Dakota, where rattlesnakes abound, warned him that he had better bring along a "snake bite anecdote." I suppose when your friend gets bitten by a rattler, that means the correct response is "Ah, so you've been snake bit. Did I ever tell you about the time I stepped on a six foot copper head..." blah blah blah. I suppose that might numb the pain a little.


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: JOField
Date: 14 Jun 99 - 02:16 PM

Mention of that Crystal Gayle tune reminds me of one of my favorite lyrics:

i/I'd make Jack Green, Clint Black, Jim Ed Brown, and Carl Belew,

If I had Charlie's Pride, Johnnie's Cash and you./-i

[It isn't Clint Black -- he wasn't yet famous, but you get the idea.] The use of Carl Belew is brilliant.

James.


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: JOField
Date: 14 Jun 99 - 02:22 PM

OK, now that I've read the thread on HTML styles, I'll stand right up and say:

Mention of that Crystal Gayle tune reminds me of one of my favorite lyrics:

I'd make Jack Green, Clint Black, Jim Ed Brown, and Carl Belew,

If I had Charlie's Pride, Johnnie's Cash and you./-i

[It isn't Clint Black -- he wasn't yet famous, but you get the idea.] The use of Carl Belew is brilliant.

James.


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: The Shambles
Date: 14 Jun 99 - 02:23 PM

Going back to 'I should coco(cocoa)'..... I tend to agree that is most probably rhyming slang for 'I should think so'? Which is in fact an ironic expression or a question, meaning the opposite = I think not.

The same meaning as 'not on your Nelly(Nellie)'.

Does that make sense Bert?


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: Walrus
Date: 14 Jun 99 - 02:56 PM

One phrase that I find myself using is "bog standard", but then does anyone (or did anyone ever) say "box standard"?

Walrus


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: Bert
Date: 14 Jun 99 - 03:42 PM

That sound good to me, Shambles.

Bert.


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: Margo
Date: 15 Jun 99 - 10:52 AM

Walrus, What on earth does bog standard mean? Or Box standard, for that matter. Well, ya got yer standard bog, an' yer extra wet bog, an' yer cranberry special............

Margarita


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From:
Date: 15 Jun 99 - 01:58 PM

Margarita,

"Bog standard" is generally used for basic and/or unmodified, not customised in any way (as in straight out of the box).

Regards

Walrus.


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: Bert
Date: 15 Jun 99 - 02:01 PM

Straight out of the box. Glad you told us that Walrus, we call that 'vanilla'


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: Margo
Date: 15 Jun 99 - 03:12 PM

Bert, is that "we" you and the people where you live, or you and your demons? :o)

Margarita


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: Bert
Date: 15 Jun 99 - 03:17 PM

We at work, where we have a product (MicroStation CAD) that can be used plain or can be customized in many ways.
The term also seems to be well understood by our users. I've not spoken to one who didn't understand when asked "Are you using Vanilla MicroStation?"

Bert.


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: Roger the zimmer
Date: 15 Jun 99 - 03:21 PM

If they say no, they're using Blackbeard MicroStation do you suspect it's pirate software?
I always thought bog standard software was full of BS
(Roger, I won't tell you again, stop it and go to bed)
:o)


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: Fadac
Date: 15 Jun 99 - 03:23 PM

Windblows, Microsnot, and remeber the little tag that says, "Intel Inside" That's a warning label.

-Fadac


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: Mark Roffe
Date: 19 Jun 99 - 12:57 AM

I never felt comfortable hearing about "the latest thing to come down the pike," but I'm even more mystified by "the latest thing to come down the pipe." I'm sure the 2nd phrase is incorrect, and I'm not sure about the first one. The phrase as an old feel to it, so it's strange to think something so modern as a turnpike. Anybody?


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: Obloquy67
Date: 19 Jun 99 - 01:46 AM

To go back towards the beginning... Wm. Safire says, "..."spit 'n' image". One longtime meaning of "spit" is "perfect likeness"- a child can be the very spit of his father. But some writers have mistaken the first two words in the phrase to mean "spitting", or ejection from the mouth, and prissily added the mistaken "g" to the sound of "spitt'n". Novelist Paul Theroux entitled a chapter of "Picture Palace" "A Spitting Image". From such a respected writer, one expectorates more.".

He goes on to mention out beloved Lady Mondegreen, as well as "kitten caboodle". He also explains that this "folk entymoogy" has also been called "homophone", "unwitting paranomasia", and "agnominatio". Other Mondegreens mentioned: On your market-set-go! Apache Fog Pullet Surprise next-store neighbor Notar Republic

Obloquy67 p.s. the Japanese expression for "thank you", "do itashimasite", is commonly expressed in English as "don't touch my moustache".


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: Margo
Date: 19 Jun 99 - 01:58 AM

Bark Woof: Yes it is Pike. Come down the pike means to come into prominence.

From such a respected writer one expectorates more......sounds like a line that Groucho Marx would have said.

I'll never forget the Chinese translation of an American movie title: Your heart pump has wings. I wish I could remember what movie it was.

Margarita, in need of a laugh about now.


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: Penny S.
Date: 19 Jun 99 - 04:00 AM

The word turnpike appeared in 18th century in Britain as improving groups were set up to build toll roads. They would build a stretch of road, with tollgates, and cottages for the men who collected the tolls. This led to people trying to get round them - near here is a lane called Sparepenny Lane, which allowed travellers along the same route, but up the other side of the valley as the turnpike, hence sparing the fee. It also led to the growth of inns near the tollgates. I remember my grandfather explaining how people worked their route to market so that they could do the whole trip in one day. It meant staying at the inn close to the gate, and then going through first thing in the morning. Turnpike roads can sometimes be mistaken for Roman roads, as they were built in emulation of the earlier good roads.

Penny


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 19 Jun 99 - 04:15 AM

Turnpikes (in the UK) were authorised by statute and did not arise casually.


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: Penny S.
Date: 19 Jun 99 - 04:59 AM

I thought they were like tontines and other developing groups, or enclosures, requiring statute, but initiated privately....

Penny


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: lloyd61
Date: 19 Jun 99 - 06:10 AM

Big time Misprint!

"Rise Up Singing"... "Amazing Grace" page 92

Printed...When we've been here 10,000 years.

Sh/be ....When we've been there 10,000 years. (I'm not this was a misprint, I think maybe someone was trying to make a statement.)

Lloyd


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: lloyd61
Date: 19 Jun 99 - 03:49 PM

The statement should have been "I'm not sure this is a misprint."


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: Jo Taylor
Date: 19 Jun 99 - 09:23 PM

My vote for worst one has to be when 'pronunciation' is said 'pronounciation'... of all the words to mispronounce.
Another pet hate - pronouncing research (the noun) as 'ree-search' although I believe this is acceptable to those of you across the oh-shun... :-}
Jo


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: Roger in Baltimore
Date: 20 Jun 99 - 08:19 AM

Once a mother complained that her child was on drugs. When asked what drugs she said "Peanut butter balls". Only with some work was it determined her child was taking Phenobarbitals.

Another woman was upset because her mother had died from "Smilin' Mighty Jesus." Turns out it was Spinal Meningitis.

Big RiB


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Jun 99 - 01:13 PM

The Saturday Evening Post used to have semi-regular humor pieces making fun of garbled language...including Heinrich Schnibble..(who was once going to "take der bangenspitzer and geschplatten der schnortenzoomers" that were scaring his cows...but there was also this oaf..(forget his name) who would show home movies , with a running commentary..( the 'Phonecian Cow-Sway' near 'Mammy Beesh'){The Venetian Causeway near Miami Beach]...

Some of the horrific examples in the various postings above were simple due to poor enunciation ...some to lax attitudes among the listeners in not BOTHERING to look up or ask about an unfamilar word...and some to genuine real difficulties in reconciling dialects, translations, and cognates as the world has grown into a more complex place....but this forum is an amazing place which 'may' help to slow down some of the newer confusions and clear up old ones.


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: Margo
Date: 20 Jun 99 - 01:30 PM

I agree Bill. But I also wonder if it isn't also a matter of hearing problems. For example,

Last night I went to dinner and a show with my husband Jack and another couple, Mark and Stacy. Jack mentioned something about a news story about scientists finding something new about Einstein's brain (it having been preserved). After a short discussion about Einstein's brain, Mark asked if they also preserved Tesla's.

Now it was a noisy place, which might account for my mishearing Mark. But it was the look on my face that let him know I had heard wrong. When pressed, I finally admitted to hearing "Did they also preserve his testes?"

No kidding, stuff like that happens to me all the time. And I don't even play fiddle!

Margarita


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 20 Jun 99 - 05:45 PM

AS I said before, folk etymology is fun. I've always assumed that the spit in spit 'n immage was a mispronunciation of spirit. But what do I know?


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: Genie
Date: 28 Oct 02 - 02:18 AM

WARNING:
I know it's an old thread, but I gotta comment.
---------------------
In "Wildwood Flower" there is often a line "...The pale and the leader and eyes look so  blue," which never made any sense to me.  The line used to be (in the late 19th C.) "...the pale emelita [amanita] and islip so blue."  Emelita, amanita, and islip are flowers.  The Carter family sang the misheard line, and it was perpetuated.

Sorry for the repetition, if you've read this in another thread, but one of my favorite examples of misheard lyrics becoming widely accepted is 
Let a smile be your umbrella."    The song was originally "Let us smile be' your umbrella," with "be'" being a contraction of "beneath."  Now nobody seems to know the origin of this mondegreen.

One example of how a word has evolved, partly through misuse, is "vulgar," which originally meant "of the common people" and morphed over time into meaning
base" or "vile."

Peter, I concur that "literally" has begun to be widely used to mean "virtually," as in "the judge literally threw the book at him" or "the judge literally gave the defendant a slap on the wrist" or "he literally flew out of the room."

Then there's Churchill's phrase "blood, tears, toil and sweat"  (Is that right?) which has been morphed into  "Blood, sweat and tears."

Jeri, Margo, "spit and image" means that someone not only looks like someone else but is identical even in rather basic physical attributes.  I think Richard Bridge is onto something with that "voodoo" reference.

Bill  D., so That's where "fuckin' A" comes from!  That expression never made any sense to me.

bseed, thanks for mentioning "parameter"/"perimeter."  As someone who used to study statistics, I abhor the corruption of the word "parameter" to mean "guidelines," "specifications," "boundaries," or whatever the speaker wishes it to mean.

bert, I was always taught (in English class, radio and TV workshop, speech class, etc.) to say "Feb-ru-ary."

One you may have missed -- not one that has become standard English, but humorous, nevertheless -- is "Sick-as-hell anemia"   (cycle-cell anemia).

Genie


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 Oct 02 - 03:09 AM

A friend of mine whose first language is not English still has some words and expressions that she hasn't quite assimilated.

For instance, the exclamation 'good gracious'. She knows about glaciers- this is Alaska, after all- so she hears it as Good Glacious!

Complaining about her son's thick-headedness she says that 'he is so stubbert.

I don't correct her- unless she says something that might be misconstrued. She once told me that she had to swing by the auto shop, that her mechanic had left a wrench 'in my behind'. I cautioned her that we say 'in the back seat'.


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: Genie
Date: 28 Oct 02 - 03:19 AM

Kinda like a Brit saying to an American woman, "I'll knock you up in the morning," eh, Ebbie.

Genie


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: JudeL
Date: 28 Oct 02 - 04:40 AM

I know this is an old thread but the phrase "bog standard" means something ordinary, commonplace and unremarkable - years ago some program was going through the history of household inventions and it said that the phrase came about because of the name of the firm which all but had a monopoly on making toilet bowls, such that almost every toilet in the country was a Bog Standard toilet bowl. Even today in the uk a common slang word for a toilet is "a bog". It claimed that the phrase "box standard" was a corruption and slight change of meaning by those who preferred not to use a phrase referring to toilets.


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 28 Oct 02 - 05:14 AM

Margo, (back in June '99) said
"Yes, Bert. It should be "I couldn't care less". I had some friends who would say, "jeat? No, Jew?" They were saying "Did you eat? No, did you?" It's amazing how a little lazy tongue can change an expression. I have a friend who insists on saying things her way. She likes to say "Flahita" instead of Fajita. I've corrected her and she tells me to leave her alone. Hmmm........good thing her daughter is an excellent speller. "

I agree, a 'little lazy tongue' can certainly put a smile on ones face!

Nigel


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: Mr Happy
Date: 28 Oct 02 - 06:20 AM

genie,

its not (cycle-cell anemia). should be sickle cell anaemia.


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: JJ
Date: 28 Oct 02 - 09:03 AM

Way back on 11 Jun 99, Margo mentioned her annoyance with the police chief of Portland, Oregon, who said "dis" and "dat."

I believe that's the suddenly-famous Chief Moose, now of Montgomery County, Maryland.


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: Amos
Date: 28 Oct 02 - 09:43 AM

Actually parameters, in computer science, are defined within possible ranges. A parameter uysually has a limiting value or boundary beyondwhich it can't be set and returns ann error. It has nothing to do with perimeters, which are geometrical bounds, but then again computerists talk about areas of information as "spaces". Marketing people talk about market niches in terms of "spaces" -- comes from too many MBAs trained in Excel and Powerpoint slides thinking that fancy graphs are real. These are part of a longer-term trend to use mental or intellectual terms to characterize the real world, making existence into a giant intellectual video game. Bad moon on the right, folks!

A


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 28 Oct 02 - 03:19 PM

T in Oklahoma said:

"In "The Wreck of the Old 97", the words "lost his airbrakes" were misinterpreted as "lost his average." It is often heard with the latter words."

"Lost his airbrakes" makes no sense at all. A train's brakes are "deadman brakes"--that is, if you lose the air, the brakes come on; they are held off from application by the air. So unless you think that the application of brakes caused the accident, it wouldn't be "lost his airbrakes".

Dave Oesterreich


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: Amos
Date: 28 Oct 02 - 03:22 PM

"Lost his average" always made sense to me, in the sense that an engineer had to make a certain average speed to reach his destination on time. While he was doing great until he jumped the rails, at that point he had no hope of making his average speed made good or his schedule.

A


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: Genie
Date: 28 Oct 02 - 03:27 PM

Mr. Happy, you're right, of course, about "sickle-cell anemia." I know better, but it was late at night and I was half asleep when I posted that. Glad you corrected it.

Genie


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 28 Oct 02 - 03:28 PM

Another popularly accepted misquote is, All that glitters is not gold."

As Shakespeare wrote it, it was "All that glisters is not gold."

Dave Oesterreich


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: Genie
Date: 28 Oct 02 - 03:31 PM

Yes, JJ, that's our own erstwhile Moose, all right!


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 28 Oct 02 - 03:46 PM

LEJ said: "But he stopped! It wouldn't be nearly as cute coming from a 34 yr old. How about "eXpresso" or "let me AKS you a question."

But it's interesting that Noah Webster, the great dictionary builder, prescribed "Aks".

Dave Oesterreich


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: Genie
Date: 28 Oct 02 - 04:19 PM

IIRC, back in the "beatnik" era, when coffeehouses began to proliferate, the term "expresso" was commonly used. I think it was merely an Anglicization (Americanization) of the Italian word.

It was not until I visited Italy in 1971 that I really noticed the Italian word "espresso." While I prefer using the Italian word (since I learned to speak a little Italian), at the same time I can see the switch from "expresso" to "espresso" in the US as a bit of an affectation, the trendiness characteristic of expensive coffee shops where nobody drinks "coffee," they only drink "latte," "mocha," "espresso," etc.


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: michaelr
Date: 28 Oct 02 - 08:43 PM

Genie -- sorry to point out another gaffe in your post, but amanita is a mushroom, not a flower.

Cheers,
Michael


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: Genie
Date: 28 Oct 02 - 10:12 PM

Michael, as I understand it, from other discussions of "Wildwood Flower," amanita is also the name of a flower, not just the name of a mushroom. Several earlier versions of the song have the singer "twining and mingling" her "raven black hair" with myrtle, amanita, and islip. I doubt that she's putting mushrooms in her hair. (It could be that saying "amanita" instead of "emelita" for the flower is a colloquialism.)

BTW, here's another example of something that's become widely used and accepted but is really a misuse of a term. I just noticed an online news site that is offering video footage that they warn "may contain graphic images." I know that the use of "graphic" to mean "grisly" or "macabre" or "gory" has become widespread, which probably means the new dictionaries have accepted that meaning. But "graphic" literally, and traditionally, means something more like "picturesque" or "vivid" in relation to the ability of the printed or spoken word to elicit imagery in the mind of the hearer or reader. So, really, to say that a picture is "graphic" is a bit like saying a book has letters and words in it. How can a picture not be "graphic?"

Genie


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: GUEST,Fred Miller
Date: 29 Oct 02 - 11:03 AM

Yes "graphic" and also "hard-core" are annoying terms for explicit, or merely present, or whatever. Hard-core sex is puzzling, because it tends to mean simply sex, and graphic violence turns out to be violence. I would prefer designating terms for that which is merely suggested, rather than use a tautology to emphasise or hype-up an ingredient. But then I would also prefer a whiter tint of pale, and that you and I travel to the beats of different drums.

   I'll explain this one more time about the CCR lyric--there's a babboon on the right. Don't go around tonight, it's bound to take your life. Why would anyone warn you against a bathroom or a "bad moon" on the "rise?" It makes no sense. Watch out for that baboon, though.

   My favorite misprint is in the Riverside Shakespear, when the ghost says that his brother's gifts were "poo" compared to his own.


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Oct 02 - 11:23 AM

I read of a mondegreen today, spotted by Cecil Sharp, no less, which I have not seen quoted elsewhere

"The singer learned the song from her mother, who always sang the first two lines as:

Do rain, Do rain, American corn
Do rain both greate and small

Clearly, 'American corn' is a corruption of 'in Merry Lincoln'"


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: Hippie Chick
Date: 29 Oct 02 - 11:29 AM

Spirit and Image is correct, it was a Colonial expression, I believe, slurrred eventually into "spittin' image"


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: Amos
Date: 29 Oct 02 - 11:32 AM

Spirit===>sprit===>spit

A


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: beadie
Date: 29 Oct 02 - 12:51 PM

Genie:

    Oh, . . . . I don't know. If the singer playing "Wildwood Flower" has had any experinece in San Francisco, putting mushrooms in your hair might not be so far-fetched.


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 29 Oct 02 - 12:58 PM

?? "Let a Smile Be Your Umbrella," Sammy Fain, music, and lyrics by Kahal and Wheeler, © 1928. Copyright Mills Music (now under EMI).
It was not copyrighted in the form that you suggest ("us - beneath"). Where did you get that information?

Vulgar can cause problems because of its several meanings. This from the OED (I love their little mini-essays):
Serviette- "The older use of the word was exclusively Sc. In the 19th c. it was re-introduced with the French spelling (at first only as a foreign term). It may now be regarded as naturalized, but latterly has come to be considered vulgar."
The average vulgar Englishman and Canadian have taken to the word. Be careful about pointing out that serviette is considered vulgar and you run the risk of getting your clock dialed.

There is no such flower as amanita; in botanical nomenclature the name is restricted to a particular genus of fungi (pointed out before). Emelita-emanita is another misheard or invented word. A flower in the original 1860 song was arrownetta. This went through a succession of flowers, real and imaginary, in the versions of the song. We can only speculate about what flowers are meant by the Carters- they may have had no specific flowers in mind- just sang what sounded nice and fit the scan. This has been discussed ad nauseum- see thread 4074. (No, no one now seems to know which flower answered to the name arrownetta).

My rant and rave is about "impact." It has replaced both effect and affect in vulgar usage.
("Aktually-ektually," vulgar in the sense of not refined goes back to the 16th c. in print and the meaning you deplore was common by the 18th century. This hydra-headed word is troublesome).

"Dis and dat," mentioned in a post above. Th-words are a real problem to bilingual people, especially those whose native language is French. The Prime Minister of Canada can say these and those properly when he has time to think, but when extemporizing, out comes dese and dose. I was raised in a Spanish-rich area, and I have the same problem with words where the initial vowel is "u." I find the "yew" sound foreign.


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: Genie
Date: 29 Oct 02 - 01:58 PM

Guest, I got that information ("Let us smile be' your umbrella...") from the oldtimers in my family years ago.  (They were around when the expression was common.)  I'll have to do some research to find printed material on it.  As for the copyright info, I could ask where you got that.  I often find sheet music printed with a copyright date that pertains to the arrangement and the sheet music itself, not the original publication of the work, and especially not to the original publication of earlier versions.  (E.g., I see sheet music of "Will The Circle Be Unbroken" with copyright dates in the 1970s.)  I am not claiming that the specific song -- entire lyrics, tune, etc. -- that was published in 1928 was older than that.  IIRC, I was told that that song was based on an older song or poem.   If anyone has any further background info, I'd be interested in finding it.

BTW, I don't "deplore" the current (longstanding) use of the word "vulgar."  I was merely commenting on the evolution of the word's meaning.Date: 17-Feb-98 - 09:21 PM
----------------
From an earlier thread on Wildwood Flower:
From: BSEEDKRATZ
Date: 25-Jul-98 - 07:23 PM

amanita is not only the name of a mushroom, it is also the name of a flower--and, yes, the woman is talking of twining flowers in her hair, throughout the song:

The flower that, along with the islip so blue, is being twined with the singer's "mingles of raven black hair," may have originally been "arrownetta," and that name may well have been a colloguialized version of "aronatus,"  just as folks nowadays often say "gladiola/gladiolas" instead of "gladiolus/gladioli."  (I know folks who call that long green vegetable "asparagrass," too.)  It also appears in some versions as amaranthus, emanita, amanita, and emelita.  Other versions have it as "...the pale oleander and islip... ."  The point is that the song was about putting flowers in her hair--even if the flower names were not the official ones in botany textbooks, and somehow the line got mondegreened into "the pale and the leader and eyes look so blue."


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 29 Oct 02 - 03:20 PM

This from the Songwriters Hall Of Fame: Sammy Fain biography.
"Around that time (1925) Fain met lyracist Irving Kahal...." "Their first song, on which Francis Wheeler also collaborated on the words was 'Let A Smile Be Your Umbrella' in 1927." Fain and Kahal also wrote "Wedding Bells Are Breaking Up That Old Gang Of Mine."
Copyright EMI Mills Music Inc./Fain Music, copyright transferred to The Songwriters Hall of Fame © 2002.
Information from www.songwritershalloffame.org Songwriters
Note: This site works with IE but not with my Netscape (and/or server).
I am 80 yars old so quite familiar with the song. It became a big hit much later for Perry Como, about 1960.


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: Genie
Date: 29 Oct 02 - 04:03 PM

Good info, Guest. Still doesn't speak to the issue of whether the phrase evolved from "let us smile be' your umbrella" or whether that phrase was known in an earlier poem or song.

Wish I were better at searching literary archives so I could delve more into the history of the phrase. I've no doubt that by 1925 in the US nobody used the contraction "be'" for "beneath." My understanding was that that usage was older English and probably from the other side of the pond.

Genie


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: EBarnacle1
Date: 29 Oct 02 - 04:08 PM

Ackshuly, I have heard the line as interpolated as "Bad moon in the night," which almost makes sense. In the second place, I have have also heard the "Swell Fwoop" as another mangling of "Fell Swoop."
Nice interpretation of "Spit and Image."

Not too long ago, I heard that asparagus derived from "Sparrow Grass." I don't know whether it is true or not.


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 30 Oct 02 - 04:45 AM

Genie: I agree that "be'" as a contraction for 'beneath' is unlikely, as it is to open to misunderstanding. If 'beneath' needs to be used as a monosyllable, the usual contraction is "'neath". As in the 1934 John Wayne film title "'Neath Arizona Skies"

Nigel


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: GUEST,Fred Miller
Date: 30 Oct 02 - 09:52 AM

Interpolated? Anyway, it's a babboon. On the right. Don't say you weren't warned.

Why does ehconomic turn into eekonomic? Is it in hard times, when we must eek out a living? Will students take Home Eek?

   People laughed at Al Gore about the internet, but why do you think they call those mathematical models AlGorithms. Or maybe that belongs on the oxymora thread.


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: Genie
Date: 30 Oct 02 - 03:15 PM

No, Fred, we don't take "home eek," but we do talk about the "ek-onomy," not the "eck-onomy."

BTW, during the 2000 US presidential campaign, I came close to having a button that said "Is 'Algorithm' an oxymoron?" and another one that said "Al Gore claps on one and three."

(Actually, I thought more about this when I saw Gore dance at the 1993 inaugural ball.)

Genie


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: Genie
Date: 30 Oct 02 - 10:50 PM

Typo there, Fred. We do talk about the "eek-onomy," not the "eck-onomy."


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: Mr Happy
Date: 31 Oct 02 - 03:52 AM

as a prelude to some films on tv, the announcer will sometimes say 'this film contains strong language'

this means the dialogue will include frequent use of the F word, as:'F you, you FFing FFer!'

to me this isn't STRONG language at all- it's very WEAK language- indicating a serious deficiency in the adjective department of the speaker.


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 31 Oct 02 - 09:26 AM

EBarnacle said:

"Not too long ago, I heard that asparagus derived from "Sparrow Grass." I don't know whether it is true or not. "

According to ORIGINS, A Short Etymological Dictionary of the English Language,
"asparagus: adopted from Latin, from Greek asparagos or aspharagos, originally a shoot or sprout, akin to Avestic sparegha, a sprout: asparagos could represent a- for ana, up+sparganto swell. (Boisacq)."

No sparrow grass. Sorry. "Folk etymology" is fun, but don't rely on it.

Dave Oesterreich


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: GUEST,Fred Miller
Date: 31 Oct 02 - 09:29 AM

Well, I don't know. I think it means that there can be menace in it, in that it's sort bad-faith use of language, suggesting action comes next. I think part of the point of profanity as an idiom is that it provides one-size-fits all terms for occasions when the idea is that the speaker doesn't see any point in being acurate or specific. It seems to say There's no point discussing it. I was interested in a discussion of whether and why and how to use profanity in writing, on another forum, and Mamet's American Buffalo seemed to me a good example of how it was one corrosive element in the sad and tenuous relationships, leading to violence. I may surf old threads about it here, about what profanity means and all. More thoughtful minds here, generally.
   But I've wondered whether phrases like Bite me, or Nailed, which seem recent to me, evolved as t.v. censor substitutes for older terms, and have now become generally accepted.


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: Amos
Date: 31 Oct 02 - 09:50 AM

Fred,

I'm sure their evolution had nothing to do with TV censorship. Expressions like that evolve amongst juvenile and other sorts of weak minds all the time. Long before television or radio, similar evolutions were producing vulgar expressions for various parts and functions.

A


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 31 Oct 02 - 09:58 AM

"Sparrow grass" may have originated with a mistake, but it is a very old one.

Some people think the word "crap" is derived from Thomas Crapper's name, but it doesn't.

I have heard people refer to the mailing of packages as "partial post".


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: GUEST,JoeBlake Australia
Date: 15 Nov 02 - 10:08 PM

Have just found this web. Sounds like fun.

Try this one. How is that the two words "helicopter" and "ornithopter" apparently both use a derivation from the Greek "pter" (wing - cf pterodactyl - roughly "wing finger"), yet we abbreviate "helico-pter" to "copter"?

Going back a while in the thread to the "Whole Nine Yards", a fanciful derivation could be from the German, meaning "after all the debating and voting is over" (No/Yes - Nein/Ja's).


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 08 Aug 05 - 05:22 PM

Sharon, why is knitting an African so different from knitting an Afghan? Or an Iraqui, or an Indian, for that matter? ;-)

Dave Oesterreich


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 08 Aug 05 - 05:31 PM

I was educated in an earlier age, when the TEACHERS had been drilled in the use of the language and spelling, so that they knew what they were about it teaching the kids. Today's teachers were brought up in the "progressive education" era, so that when THEY say, "It's not important to spell correctly (or use correct grammar), as long as the meaning is clear," it's not really because of educational or philosophical reasons; it's because they don't know how themselves.

My opinion; agree or not agree, makes me no never-mind.

Dave Oesterreich


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: Flash Company
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 07:00 AM

Oh, Uncle DaveO, How I agree with you! We have a friend who has a son who is a Deputy Head at a Comprehensive School in the UK. She is always telling him off for poor punctuation and spelling, and he always says 'It doesn't matter'
She once asked him, So that means that 'What is this thing called love?' means the same as 'What is this thing called, love?' does it.
His reply 'Now you are being pedantic'
Incidentally, the one that really grates with me, used frequently on TV by people who are supposed to be experts, is 'Drawring' for 'Drawing'

FC


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: GUEST, Hamish
Date: 10 Aug 05 - 04:50 AM

"The whole nine yards"? Meaning genuine. A kilt is made out of nine yards of cloth - all those pleats. Kilt-like skirts may be made out of less cloth.

As far as I am aware, that's where the expression comes from.


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: Paul Burke
Date: 10 Aug 05 - 05:05 AM

"The whole nine yards" is typical American hyperbole. The British version is "the whole nine inches".


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 22 Sep 07 - 07:59 AM

The whole 9 yards is an expression from American football surely?
G


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 22 Sep 07 - 12:57 PM

Mark Ruffe, I'm from Minnesota, and I do indeed say "Feb-ru-ary".

Dave Oesterreich


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 22 Sep 07 - 01:00 PM

Well Dave you do better than many of the folks this side of the pond, who seem to think it's pronounce Feb-ewe-arry, boy does it piss me off too!
Giok


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 22 Sep 07 - 01:03 PM

Somebody asked,

Where has the logic gone?"

Long time passing.

Dave Oesterreich


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: Ron Davies
Date: 22 Sep 07 - 02:25 PM

The sort of person who would pronounce it "Feb-yew-ary" is our dear Chickenhawk in Chief.


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: Amos
Date: 22 Sep 07 - 03:20 PM

...who thinks Febyewry is the seccon munf in a newklear winter.


A


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 22 Sep 07 - 03:39 PM

Perzackly Amos.


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: GUEST, Mikefule
Date: 22 Sep 07 - 04:16 PM

Turnpike, old word for a toll road. Thus gypsies are sometimes called "pikeys" as in "turnpike sailors". (Travelling as they do from place to place, under canvas, and wearing gold earrings.)

The eye of a needle. At school I was taught it was the smallest gate out of a city. Thus the camel would have to get rid of its baggage to get through, just as the rich man would have to divest himself of his worldly goods to gain access to heaven. The explanation seemedto me to be a bit "retrospectively applied" even when I was about 7 years old!

"I should coco..." = I should think so, but said sarcastically and knowingly to mean, "I shouldn't think so, would you?"

"Not on your Nellie" = "Not bloody likely". No I certainly won't.

Sweet Fanny Adams. I once heard that this expression used to mean corned beef, as a grim reference to the fate of Fanny Adams who was murdered and butchered. "Sweet Fanny Adams" by extension meant "not much" or "the bare minimum". By convergent development of slang, when "Sweet F*** All" became a common expression, and then "Sweet FA", the older expression "Sweet Fanny Adams" came to mean "nothing at all". Possibly!


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: Ebbie
Date: 23 Sep 07 - 01:27 AM

Since no one has yet responded to your observation, Giok, (The whole 9 yards is an expression from American football surely?) I will. :)

No, it would not refer to American football,imo. Nine yards in football is not significant- it has to be ten yards (for another 'down'). Nine yards is close but no cigar- to quote another phrase.


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: GUEST,Declan
Date: 23 Sep 07 - 08:18 AM

One phrase I often hear used nowadays which drives me bananas (anyone know the derivation of that one?) is "The proof is in the pudding".

The correct phrase as I know it is "The proof of the pudding is in the eating", which makes sense.

Someone referred earlier to American hyperbole. An Irish sports commentator recently used that word, but pronounced it Hyper-Bowl. Sounds like a good name for an American Football trophy to me. I wouldn't be surprised if there was already one with that name.


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: Celtaddict
Date: 23 Sep 07 - 10:49 PM

I say 'Feb-ru-ary' (but I am often accused of being a latent English teacher and my father was a known pedant in the very best sense of the word), but in this area I usually hear 'Feb-yoo-rary' which does not make a lot of sense given the spelling.
But does anyone say 'Wed-nes-day'? I typically hear 'Wens-dee' and usually when I am speaking that is close to the way it comes out.


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Sep 07 - 10:00 AM

Has no-one answered the"whole nine yards" yet?
I heard it came from the belt-loaded machine gun.
9 yds sounds a lot but allowing 0.5 in for a 0.3 or 303inc clip that's approx 650 rounds-i.e 1 min.firing for a vickers or c.40 sec for a ww2 airborne browning.


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 24 Sep 07 - 10:04 AM

9 Yds no known origin for definite.
G.


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Sep 07 - 10:15 AM

Oops!if the Internet says it doesn't know the origin I must be in error...


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Jun 09 - 03:39 PM

moot point is correct cxoming from a law student exercise called a moot court. Ponts made there may be impressiver, convinvcing and even valid or true, but becuase the trial is not real, the point of obsessing about it came to be known as "moot" when somethiong doesn't really matter no matter how eloguently stated.


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: Stringsinger
Date: 22 Jun 09 - 04:08 PM

Margo, as I understand it the Eye of the Needle was a passageway in the Mid-East.
Merchants had a hard time bringing their goods through.

I'm glad that we can leave "nookewler" behind.

Stephen Colbert still says "Liberry".

"Irregardless" is another one that is used regardless of its irr-itation.

Then there's "Eats, Shoots and Leaves". (Great book).

From an earlier thread on Wildwood Flower:


"amanita is not only the name of a mushroom, it is also the name of a flower--and, yes, the woman is talking of twining flowers in her hair, throughout the song:

The flower that, along with the islip so blue, is being twined with the singer's "mingles of raven black hair," may have originally been "arrownetta," and that name may well have been a colloguialized version of "aronatus," just as folks nowadays often say "gladiola/gladiolas" instead of "gladiolus/gladioli." (I know folks who call that long green vegetable "asparagrass," too.) It also appears in some versions as amaranthus, emanita, amanita, and emelita. Other versions have it as "...the pale oleander and islip... ." The point is that the song was about putting flowers in her hair--even if the flower names were not the official ones in botany textbooks, and somehow the line got mondegreened into "the pale and the leader and eyes look so blue."

The original botanical reference from Maude Iving's song "I Will Twine Midst the Ringlets"
was "the pale Aranautus with eyes of bright blue". From the botanical knowledge from Sam Hinton, there exists no such flower. It must be truly "wild".

Frank Hamilton


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Jun 09 - 04:19 PM

do note that Margo started this 10 years ago...
I dearly with there was some auto-generated pop-up when a thread more than say... a few months old ...was refreshed.


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: frogprince
Date: 22 Jun 09 - 05:21 PM

There are lotth of thingth to be dearly withed for. : )


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Jun 09 - 05:33 PM

*grin*...yeth, indeed. Including thomething beyond a thspell checker.


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: BK Lick
Date: 22 Jun 09 - 06:14 PM

The whole nine yards about the whole nine yards, including a risqué story
about the fictional Andrew MacTavish and his courtship with Mary Margaret MacDuff.
—BK


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: Rumncoke
Date: 22 Jun 09 - 07:33 PM

I was solomnly told that 'tyum uns' was a dialect work meaning empty tubs in a coal mine.

It is simply misheard t'empty uns, the empty ones.

It is printed as misheard in the song that starts 'Me fether he alus used to say that pitworks more than hewing'

Anne Croucher


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: Ref
Date: 22 Jun 09 - 08:28 PM

Going back to the beginning, I've read that the Biblical quote about the camel going through the eye of "A" needle is wrong. It's supposed to be the eye of "THE" needle, that being a reference to a small door set into a city gate for use during the night or times of trouble. To get through "the eye of the needle", a traveler would have to unload his camel or donkey, pass the load through, then coax the balky animal through the small opening. It's not impossible, but it does take a lot of extra effort, which fits the context.


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: GUEST,sheryl the k
Date: 22 Jun 09 - 10:39 PM

WOW- this thread has been going for 10 years and no one has mentioned "all the sudden," instead of all of a sudden, or
"ex-specially" - as in, "You look exspecially lovely this evening, darling."

I also had a friend who liked to say things her own way, and one of my favorites is so apropo of today--"We're goin' to Hell in a handbag..."

Yes, it is true that old beatniks say "expresso,"
rather than espresso--as Americanized in the 1940's and 50's, when "pasta" was still macaroni. I personally like the sound of "expresso." (Why, then, do I not like "exspecially?")


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: GUEST,Pez
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 11:44 AM

Re "moot"; I've heard someone say, "That's a mute point".

Also, folks usta say "tisk tisk" to express "oh, too bad", or "shame on you", or suchlike. I think it came from the comics, especially Joe Palooka, where the character Humphrey often said "tsk, tsk", a staccato sound made by pulling a bit of air through your teeth with the tip of your tongue (hard to describe in words, but ustabe common when I was a brat-- and I've used that sound for years to call the cat, quietly). So over the years folks read "tsk", caught the meaning from context, but pronounced it "tisk", and it's come into misspeak.

WENZ dee    FEB yew ary    LIE berry    CUE linary    PEW litzer    AIR ee yew dite


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: Rog Peek
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 03:25 PM

Third line first verse of Streets of London:

Often sung: In his eyes you see no pride, hand held loosely at his side.

Correct wording is ........and held loosely.....

Rog


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: michaelr
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 06:27 PM

One that drives me nuts is quite commonly heard: "...one of the only..."

To be "one of" something, there have to be several, while "the only" clearly states that there is only one. Correct usage must be "one of the few".


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 05:48 AM

'I was solomnly told that 'tyum uns' was a dialect work meaning empty tubs in a coal mine.
It is simply misheard t'empty uns, the empty ones.'
Rum'n'coke

Not sure that is right — there is a Scottish & Northern English dialect word 'toom' which means 'empty' — remember the line in the Bonny James/George Campbell ballad [Child#210] - "Toom was the saddle sae bloody to see When hame came his good horse but never came he".


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Nov 09 - 02:45 AM

BTW Anne - the song you refer to containing 'tyum uns' is, IIRC, 'Rap her to bank', is it not?

Michael


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: Rumncoke
Date: 08 Nov 09 - 07:29 AM

The song has the chorus

Jowl jowl and listen lad
Hear the coal face working
There's many a marrer missing lad
Because he wouldenae listen lad

It is not rap'er ta bank.

I am not familiar with Child ballads and so can't say - though I like the rhythm of the words, (I've read another poem with the same 'feet' though the only line I am sure of is 'whilst the bridegroom stood dangling his bonnet and plume') - and I have not heard toom for empty.

However would not toom rhyme with gloom, but tyum was pronounced to rhyme with thumb? I have never heard either toom or tyum used in real life - as it were - so I still strongly suspect that tyum uns is t' empty uns - isn't it Occam's razor - the simplest explaination is usually the right one?

Anne Croucher


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Nov 09 - 08:06 AM

Anne: toom [which you will find in Chambers Dictionary] has a short middle oo, more like the N Country pronunciation of Mum [or thumb, for that matter — think how a Yorkshireman would say 'rule of thumb'], than of 'gloom'. & I don't quite see how 'empty un' would easily corrupt to 'tyum', which lacks the entire first syllable and ends with a different consonant. So, Occam-wise, I still think my explanation the more simple, if you accept that the u would be pronounced North Country-wise.

The line you quote of the bridegroom dangling his bonnet and plume is from 'Lochinvar', which was Scott's reworking of the traditional ballad of Katharine Jaffray [also in Child, #221].

I think 'Jowl & Listen' & 'Rap her to Bank' are related songs which share some 'floaters', aren't they?

Regards - Michael Grosvenor Myer


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 04:32 AM

Has anyone else an opinion on this discussion between Anne & me, as to whether "tyum uns" in 'Jowl & Listen' is a corruption of "the empty ones" as she thinks, or is a variant of the Scottish word "toom" = "empty" [pronounced with short 'oo' as in e.g. Yorks way of saying 'mum'], as used in Child #210 'Bonnie James Campbell', as I contend may well be the case?


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 07:16 AM

'Teum' or 'tyum' is the NE English version of Scots 'toom' meaning empty. It's in many ballads.
Compare byeuk for book, cyek for cake. Tyum uns has also been shortened to chummins.
While toom means empty it is etymologically distinct, Scandinavian in origin for all I know.


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: s&r
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 07:31 AM

From glossary of mining terms in NE looks to me as though tyum means empty. I don't think it's a mishearing

Stu


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: GUEST,Frank Burns
Date: 18 Jan 10 - 02:33 PM

"Spit and image" is itself an evolved form, carried over from Continental languages, where "esculpido" became "escupido" in the phrase "esculpido y encarnado."


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: Airymouse
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 11:08 AM

What a fun thread, which seems to weave through several topics
1) Pronunciation. I grant mispronouncing "pronunciation" is awkward, but mispronouncing "err" in "To err is human" is also embarrassing. Here in the States, thanks to Penn State we've had our fill of news about pedophiles, but all the newsmen mispronounce "pedophile". They use a long E for other common words with the same root, like "pediatrics" or "orthopedic", but they can't handle "pedophile". In theory "conduit" ought to be a two-syllable word, like "biscuit" and "circuit"; has anyone ever heard it pronounced that way? (I've seen this pronunciation in dictionaries, but I never actually heard it.)
2) "Ax" for "ask" Certainly in the past "ax" was perfectly good English; after all "ask" and "ax" come from the old English "Axian"
"oh mother oh mother the daughter replied, I shan't do this thing that you ax, I'm willing to pay a fair price for the tea, but never no threepenny tax"
3) Misheard but accepted. My moniker comes from an old song, which we always sang as "Airymouse Airymouse fly over my head, and you shall have a piece of my bread". Surely the real word was "reremouse"
4) Misspoken. Richard Chase told me that in the old song Lolly-tru-dum he had changed "chattering tongue" to "flattering tongue". Some singers have adopted his change, but "chattering tongue" was used by Shakespeare in The Taming of the Shrew.


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: Stringsinger
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 11:15 AM

Liberace was the on attributed to "crying all the way to the bank" which was misappropriated to "laughing all the way to the bank". His initial statement was that though he was criticized for his commercialism, it had its compensations.

"Laughing" somehow implies that making money trumps other less mercenary endeavors.


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: PHJim
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 03:03 PM

I can't believe that President W. Bush's advisers never corrected his pronunciation of "Nucular". I'm sure that he stuck to it just because changing would be an admission that he was wrong.

Some words ARE pronounced differently in different places. Most Americans say, "ve-hick-les", while in Canada, the "H" is silent - "Ve-ick-les".

My pet peeve has already been mentioned:"I could care less." This is an almost useless statement. A person who cares a little bit could care less and a person who cares very much could care less.
All it tells me when someone says,"I could care less," is that they DO care. It doesn't tell me how much they care.

I thin of Mondegreens as describing misheard lyrics to songs. For the song Mr. Bojangles The Nitty Gritty Dirt Band sang Jerry Jeff Walker's line, "And he spoke right out," as "And the smoke ran out." When they sing the song in concert these days, they use Jerry Jeff's original lyrics.


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: Ebbie
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 03:10 PM

"the pale and the leader and eyes look so blue." from W A Y back

Actually, the Carters sang it as "...and eyes look like blue." Maud Irving wrote an excellent song, coherent and eloquent. A.P. Carter trashed it, probably unwittingly.

Also from way back: I love "going to hell in a handbag." lol


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: Mo the caller
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 05:00 AM

At a guide camp one of the girls was corrected for using a damp MUSLIM to keep milk cool.

In the UK there is a TV show called Countdown. A contest involving anamgrams and arithmetic. Between two of the rounds an expert from the OED talks about the origins of words. The first presenters of this long running programme used to tease viewers by saying "should of", knowing that people would write in and complain that they should of said "should have". The present numbers expert drives OH mad by "you times them". To people of our generation, although 4 times 5 is 20 you have to multiply them. But this expression is common with my daughter's generation. I suppose 4 times 5 is itself a contraction of 'add 5 four times'

So when does it stop being 'wrong' and start being part of the evolution of language?


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: Airymouse
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 08:46 AM

In response to MO, let me quote from "The Words of Mathematics" Surprisingly the source of our word "times"(Indo-European "da") meant to divide. When we say "five times three", we are saying that 15 can be divided into five groups of three. As a verb we properly say "to multiply" although some children say "to times" for obvious reasons. From the same root as "times" comes "tide", which used to mean what "time" now means, as can be seen in the term "eventide" (evening time)


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 10:11 AM

Very common in Scotland - " oh definAtely" - with the result that they spell it wrongly (not "wrong") as well.
As for CONTRoversy versus conTROVersy, that's controversial!


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: Lighter
Date: 01 Apr 13 - 10:17 AM

> Most Americans say, "ve-hick-les".

Not up North we don't.


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: GUEST,Reid
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 02:07 PM

A damp Muslim has etymological virtue, does it not? That muslin fabric was named for the North African Muslims/Mussulmans who wove a fairly coarse, sturdy, undyed and inexpensive cotton fabric and marketed it around the Mediterranean littoral where it was found to answer for many tasks.


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: Q
Date: 06 Apr 13 - 03:30 PM

Couldn't care less has appeared in fiction printed in UK (a mystery by a Scot). I read that recently and smiled.

Vehicle: Ve-e-kel and ve-hi-kel (schwa, the backward e) both accepted in Webster's Collegiate.

Have heard ve-hick-el but not common. Especially when speaking disparagingly about a vehicle.


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: GUEST,Mark
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 01:03 PM

My mother (who was a librarian by profession) always pronounced it LYE-bree (not even LYE-berry).

I don't sound the "h" in "vehicle".

I tend to pronounce it as "Feb-oo-ary".

And "PEE-can".


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 02:56 PM

"Couldn't care less" is an old[ish] (1940s according to Partridge) idiomatic catchphrase to express emphatic uninterest. "Could care less" derives from it as a counterblasting emphatic expression of interest, but is dependent for any effect on existence, and interlocutor's knowledge, of the earlier phrase.

~M~


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Subject: RE: Misspoken, misheard, but accepted.
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 19 Apr 13 - 03:14 PM

Don't forger "Normalcy"--a word coined by one of our semi-literate Presidents (Garfield)


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