Folk Against Fascism

Subject: Folk Against Fascism
From: Folknacious
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 10:53 AM

Apologies if this has already been flagged up, but I was just emailed news of this new Facebook group and organisation which seems to have gone from nothing to nearly 600 members in less than two days.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: bubblyrat
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 11:06 AM

Depends what you mean by "Fascism"-----a great many people today seem to be confusing it with Patriotism,sadly.One only has to calmly and logically express the opinion (to which one is fully entitled)that there is too much uncontrolled immigration into this country (UK)and people are jumping up and down crying "Racist ! "--"Fascist!"--"Nazi !" in a frenzy of Do -Goodery. Please calm down,and allow the majority to be heard properly before slandering them.Then go and live in the country of your favourite foreign ethnic group (if they'll have you !!).And try not to mix politics with folk music, it gets very TEDIOUS.Thankyou.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 11:07 AM

Folk Against Fascism is growing by leaps and bounds, as it should, treminding one (even though I'm too young to really remember) of
Rock Against Racism

May the spirit never die!

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 11:11 AM

"And try not to mix politics with folk music, it gets very TEDIOUS.Thankyou"

Your listening must be very limited in that case, as a large amount of folk music(whatever that is)is politically oriented. Time to take off the blinkers and take some social responsibilty. It was the head in the sand attitude that brought Hitler to his full flowering.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Gervase Webb
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 11:13 AM

And try not to mix politics with folk music, it gets very TEDIOUS.Thankyou.
Honestly, there's no hope for some people!

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Crow Sister
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 11:17 AM

"And try not to mix politics with folk music, it gets very TEDIOUS.Thankyou."

Bubblyrat, I think you might not be appreciating the purpose of the campaign.

It's not as such a 'political' movement (though it's going to be impossible for it not to become so), as demonstrating a collective dissaproval of fascist politics currently deliberately appropriating our collective folk music as a form of pro-fascist propaganda - precisely as happened in Nazi Germany. As others have commented German folk music has never fully recovered from the stain of being forced into prostitution to very dark political ends.

This is not a 'politicising' of folk music as such, but an attempt to reclaim it from those who *ARE* currently politicising it to a fascist agenda. I hope you might recognise the difference.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Banjiman
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 11:22 AM

"And try not to mix politics with folk music, it gets very TEDIOUS.Thankyou. "

How else do we counter the odious BNP threat...... or do you think their policy of repatriation for non-whites is a good one?

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Crow Sister
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 11:23 AM

PS. JoanC good job!

I don't do Facebook, so I hope that this thread might perhaps offer the rest of us, an update on progress.
Much interested to hear more, and hopefully participate in any ways appropriate.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: GUEST,Rich Arrowsmith
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 11:25 AM

It was started because the f******* BNP have said that they are the only people who can save Morris dancing and folk customs. This site is for people to say that they don't want the BNP talking for or having anything to do with English customs. We can manage them ourselves without help from scum like that.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 11:27 AM

Just accept the fact that politics has been involved in folk music (whatever that is) for a VERY long time.
Sorry to be soooooooo... tedious *LOL*

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 11:28 AM

I most certainly do not confuse patriotism with xenophobia or fascism, but I do not recognise the bubblyrat version as capable of being distinguished from the sordid peddlings of the BNP.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Banjiman
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 11:33 AM

I don't do facebook either.... any chance of starting a MySpace page as well?

Paul Arrowsmith

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 11:40 AM

You may have to do Facebook...I've said the same thing, but JoanieC is tempting me.... *sigh*

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Crow Sister
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 11:42 AM

Aye... I hate those FakeFriends sites (except music), but I might join for this.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 11:43 AM

Myspace is on its way, as is a website.

The website will be for information about plans - everything from making stickers and badges available to a large-scale concert or tour (and given some of the people already supporting this, we're not talking pie-in-the-sky - something exciting is going to happen). The Myspace will hopefully help the community to grow, and showcase some of the artists who are involved.

Considering that this whole idea is only a day old, I'm frankly staggered at the response. It's clearly hit a nerve with a lot of people.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Banjiman
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 11:45 AM

Eddie/ Joan,

Anything either we or Kirkby Fleetham Folk Club can do to help..... just let me know.

Paul & Wendy Arrowsmith

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 11:50 AM

Right at this moment I'm listening to the Albion Country Band's Battle of the Field, particularly Richard Thompson's The New St. George/La Rotta, on my MP3 player. It's VERY inspiring, I want to get up and dance, unfortunately I'm in the library...they might fron a bit *LOL*

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 11:51 AM

Cheers - that's great.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Lox
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 11:52 AM

Thing is bubblyrat that when questioned, you have said on other threads that your reason for being concerned about immigration basically boils down to not liking different looking people around.

I could go and get the post - I think it might have been in the carol thatcher thread - but your big concern was that basically you didn't see why you had to have foreigners in your town, for no other reason than that it is your town and you don't like them there.

In the absence of any other rationale, that is best described as discriminating on the basis of someone elses race.


That's why people shout "racist" - its cos of the racist things you say.


Generally I think its realistic, if you say racist things, to expect someone to call you racist.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Crow Sister
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 11:54 AM

"given some of the people already supporting this, we're not talking pie-in-the-sky - something exciting is going to happen"

It's fantastic. I've been in something of a rash over this stuff since I cottoned on when I first got into folk six months ago. Wonderful to see someone like JoanC who's so perfectly placed to do so, ready to take the bulldog by the balls... So to speak. Really exciting news.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 12:00 PM

Yeah...already kinda waiting for the poo to be posted through my door.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: GUEST,Rich Arrowsmith
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 12:02 PM

Rifleman!! My favourite album! My copy has got scratched to bits, I need another.

'When the sun comes up in the morning, and you hear the dancing boys...'

Rich

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Crow Sister
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 12:03 PM

>Archer ref. eventually clicks...!< :-)

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 12:03 PM

Folk singers were among those on the CND marches and sang the songs in the folk clubs.
Folk singers demonstrated at the Anti- Vietnam rallies and sang the songs in the folk clubs.
Folk singers demonstrated against the Poll Tax and sang anti - Thatcher songs in the folk clubs.
Now it looks like there will be some anti - BNP songs sung in the folk clubs and festivals.
Sounds like it has been pretty "tedious" for the last fifty years!!

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 12:13 PM

Let me know about the MySpace, Joan, and anything I can do. Tom.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Folkiedave
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 12:15 PM

Depends what you mean by "Fascism"-----a great many people today seem to be confusing it with Patriotism,sadly.

Nope perfectly clear in my mind.

The BNP are a fascist party and there is a video of Nick Griffin denying the holocaust.

Filthy race based politics and Folk Against Fascism is designed to stop these people infiltrating (as per their orgnisers handbook) into local folk customs.

Well done Joanie.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Azizi
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 12:23 PM

I also want to say "Well done!" to JoanC.

I have a MySpace page but don't have a FaceBook account. I'll jump on board when the MySpace page is launched.

**

Dave listed these examples of folk singer's involvement in politics:


Folk singers were among those on the CND marches and sang the songs in the folk clubs.
Folk singers demonstrated at the Anti- Vietnam rallies and sang the songs in the folk clubs.
Folk singers demonstrated against the Poll Tax and sang anti - Thatcher songs in the folk clubs.

-snip-

Expanding this list outside of Britain, Folk singers sang songs during the civil rights movement in the USA.

It might be a good idea to include such a listing on the FaceBook/MySpace pages or at least on the upcoming Folk Against Fascism website.

What else can be added to this list?

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 12:24 PM

Rich I still have my copy (given to me for my 21st bithday, by my parents)on vinyl, very scratched like yours *LOL* My sister found it on CD, in, of all places, a chain record shop (A&B Sound) in Victoria, BC, Canada, and I've transfered it to my MP/ player for listening when I want to (like now)

Now is the time for action,
Leave your satisfaction:
Can't you hear St George's tune?
St George's tune is calling you on!
Freedom was your mother,
Fight for one another:

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Good Soldier Schweik
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 12:27 PM

well done, Joan.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Azizi
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 12:28 PM

BTW, if the FaceBook and MySpace Folk Against Fascism pages are meant to have international membership* you might want to stay away from or at least define the acronyms.

For instance, I don't know what "CND" means in this sentence "Folk singers were among those on the CND marches and sang the songs in the folk clubs."

* It occurs to me that maybe that organization is only meant for people living in Europe. Can some one clarify this?

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: mandotim
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 12:30 PM

Well done Joan, I'm in.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 12:34 PM

Azizi, it's for anyone who opposes what the BNP is currently doing in the UK by trying to appropriate our national customs and music as part of their racist agenda, or indeed what any White Supremacist organisation (for, by identifying that they share values with the KKK, this is what they are) do when they try and usurp a national identity and claim it as theirs and theirs alone.

The focus will largely be on the campaign as it unfolds in the UK. But you will be most welcome. :)

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Amos
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 12:38 PM

Azizi:

THe people who first used what later became the "Peace" symbol were British anti-nuke demonstrators who frequently marched under the flag of the Committee for Nuclear Disarmament, with banners showing the semaphoric lines-in-a-circle that (rumor has it) was first designed by GB Shaw. The symbol was taken up and made even more widely known by the youth of the Sixties in the US who used it to symbolize protest against the LBJ War in Vietnam.

A

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Amos
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 12:40 PM

Correction:

"One of the most widely known symbols in the world, in Britain it is recognised as standing for nuclear disarmament —and in particular as the logo of the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament (CND). In the United States and much of the rest of the world it is known more broadly as the peace symbol. It was designed in 1958 by Gerald Holtom, a professional designer and artist and a graduate of the Royal College of Arts. He showed his preliminary sketches to a small group of people in the Peace News office in North London and to the Direct Action Committee Against Nuclear War, one of several smaller organisations that came together to set up CND.

The Direct Action Committee had already planned what was to be the first major anti-nuclear march, from London to Aldermaston, where British nuclear weapons were and still are manufactured. It was on that march, over the 1958 Easter weekend that the symbol first appeared in public. Five hundred cardboard lollipops on sticks were produced. Half were black on white and half white on green. Just as the church's liturgical colours change over Easter, so the colours were to change, "from Winter to Spring, from Death to Life." Black and white would be displayed on Good Friday and Saturday, green and white on Easter Sunday and Monday.

The first badges were made by Eric Austin of Kensington CND using white clay with the symbol painted black. Again there was a conscious symbolism. They were distributed with a note explaining that in the event of a nuclear war, these fired pottery badges would be among the few human artifacts to survive the nuclear inferno. These early ceramic badges can still be found and one, lent by CND, was included in the Imperial War Museum's 1999/2000 exhibition From the Bomb to the Beatles. "

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 12:44 PM

Great idea Joan. I've joined up. BTW, I reckon if they come knocking you'd be better off pushing the dogpoo out of the letter box at them!

Now off to listen to 'Battle of the Field' on the way home...

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Azizi
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 12:45 PM

Thanks for that clarification, Eddie. Count me in!

I guess because the organization is for anyone who opposes the BNP's attempt or any other White Supremacist organization's attempt to appropriate British national customs and music as part of their racist strategies, you may not have to include explanations of what all those more obscure (to non-British people) alphabet references like CND mean. However, it still might be something that you want to provide on your page or website for those who are supporting the organization from outside of the UK.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Matthew Edwards
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 12:47 PM

Well done to JoanieC for setting this up. Another disturbing feature of the European election results has been the election of MEPs from the extreme Jobbik party in Hungary. This is an openly anti-semitic party which has also supported persecution of the Roma community. This Observer report of 3 May 2009 shows how widespread and dangerous the persecution of Gypsies in Hungary has already become, and what the Jobbik policy towards the Roma means.

So since June 2009 is Gypsy Roma Traveller History Month lets celebrate the cultural achievements of these communities too. There is a very interesting looking DVD on sale called 'The First Traveller' with songs stories and music, including a contribution from Sheila Stewart MBE.

Matthew Edwards

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 01:04 PM

Folk Against Fascism Myspace


I should add that while I've actually been working today, other people have been beavering away at this stuff. Steve Hunt made the Myspace. Chris Williams made the logo. All credit. I'm just the messenger.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 01:53 PM

I'm there, on both.
My concern is that there should be follow-up; not just people signing up and thinking they've done their bit. This isn't simply a petition, I see it as signing-on for action.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Banjiman
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 01:55 PM

Agreed George.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Azizi
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 01:58 PM

Oh, that CNP

:o)

Yes, I know that symbol as "the peace symbol".

Thanks for that info.

And btw, I've joined the MySpace page and will forward information about that page to my MySpace friends.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: The Barden of England
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 02:08 PM

I've put the following on my 'Facebook' page

'In memory of my Tollpudle brothers, I am delighted to join my fellows in the 'Folk against fascism' fight.

We ARE the power, we ARE the might,
we ARE the ones, who will show what's wrong and right.
John Barden

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: bubblyrat
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 02:14 PM

Well, I just watched the evening news on BBC television,and was saddened to see and hear about the disruption to the BNP's Press Conference----it would have been interesting to see what they had to say !! This organisation,which I do NOT support ( I voted Green & UKIP in the recent elections,if you must know), is,however, NOT illegal (sadly) and therefore there is NO justification for the crass behaviour of the baying mob that disrupted its activities. So who is being the more intolerant, controlling,bigoted,selective and prejudiced here then ?? Even if you HATE HATE HATE the BNP,which most of you / us do, they STILL HAVE THE RIGHT ,in our democracy,both to their views and to be heard.Only a REAL FASCIST would deny them that !!! That's the point that I am trying to get across,that my father fought for in WW2,and to which your intense HATRED has blinded you.There are ways to get rid of the BNP---But yours is not it ! Or is Democracy itself that you REALLY hate,because that's how you are coming across ? Is it too permissive for your Fascist views ??

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Banjiman
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 02:18 PM

Bubblyrat.... I don't think anyone here were involved in disrupting their Press conference..... surely in this country of free speech we are allowed to get our point across as well?

Through words and songs I hope!

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Gervase Webb
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 02:20 PM

Sorry? Mine's not what?
The Folk Against Fascism campaign has nothing whatsoever to do with denying free speech or chucking eggs at people. Shaky eggs, maybe...

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 02:23 PM

As far as I know, it was no member of the Folk Against Fascism group that threw eggs at Nick Griffin, so I'm not really sure what you're getting at.

This is about a specific agenda and set of policies - the appropriation of British traditional music and culture to suit a racist and nationalist agenda. It's about raising awareness of that attampted appropriation, and standing up against it. It is not about throwing eggs at Nick Griffin or preventing him from speaking, no matte rhow poisonous his views might be, and not long before you psoted on this matter, I was explaining exactly that to my 15 year old daughter.

So I'm not sure who you're screeching at, but I think your tirade might be somewhat misdirected.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: The Barden of England
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 02:28 PM

It's DEMOCRACY. I have no truck with what went on today. It's the same as Mandelson getting green custard in the face though - and I didn't see your comment on that 'bubblyrat'
The BNP has a right to exist, and we have the right to harrangue, verbally not physically, so I believe the idiots who threw eggs today have done the BNP a favour. Woe is me.
John Barden

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 02:55 PM

No hate over here, Roger. Quite a lot of joy in fact, at living in a multi-ethnic, multicultural street, and I celebrated it in a song, which hopefully should be going up on the FAF Myspace page soon (thanks, Steve), albeit in a rough, unmixed version. It is intended as the opening track of my upcoming album, so it puts my stake in the ground so to speak. Here goes:

STREET LIFE (October 2008 - all the characters are real)

Monday morning, treading softly as I leave the house for work
Chris next door had late shift Sunday night
Full-time guard and part-time fireman, not a moment to himself
And to wake him up would not be right.
Tuesday and Mujeeb's good lady's grinding spices for their meal
Aromas through the window they escape
We all stop outside a moment just to savour the perfume
It's a wonder how he stays in shape
   A different story every day of the week
   As different as chalk and cheese the faces that you meet
   And I don't care much where they come from
   Who they pray to, what they eat,
   But I am lucky living down our street

Seven thirty, engines starting, scrapers scratching at the ice
Hunter gatherers barely half awake
Smiling grimly at each other, p'rhaps today will turn out nice
Thursday morning, two more trips to make
Janusz waiting by his front door for his morning lift to come
Sandwich and banana in a towel
All day working up the scaffold to bring home his daily crumb
He's so good with mortar board and trowel
   A different story every day of the week
   As different as chalk and cheese the faces that you meet
   And I don't care much where they come from
   Who they pray to, what they eat,
   But I am lucky living down our street

Love you Mummy, Love you Daddy, down at Number 54
Little angels on their way to school
Hop skip jumping to whatever life might have for them in store
May their winter years never be cruel.
Friday night, the youngsters heading for the town to paint it red
Learning lessons others learned before
They'll be back before the day breaks, empty pockets, throbbing heads
(they'd) Better not be banging on the door
   A different story every day of the week
   As different as chalk and cheese the faces that you meet
   And I don't care much where they come from
   Who they pray to, what they eat,
   But I am lucky living down our street

Sunday morning, dozen mowers buzzing like a swarm of bees
Perfect time for barbecue and beer
Cross the valley watch the walkers chasing dogs among the trees
And I swear that I've just seen a deer.
Sunday evening, all is quiet, windows darken one by one
Like a tunnel swallowing a train
Soon enough alarms will ring like cockerels heralding the sun
And we'll start the cycle once again
   A different story every day of the week
   As different as chalk and cheese the faces that you meet
   And I don't care much where they come from
   Who they pray to, what they eat,
   But I am lucky living down our street

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 02:58 PM

Bubblyrat...if you're not going to help, please don't hinder those of us who're prepared to stand and be counted!

It's that simple!

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: GUEST,Lock and Key
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 03:11 PM

Well said (as usual) George.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Crow Sister
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 03:24 PM

Bubblyrat, I think as JC/Eddie may have stated, that the egg throwers are not likely to be amongst this exceedingly new gathering of folk enthusiasts - who are joining in order to express their collective objection (as they are right to do?) to the appropriation of folk music to a very specific and ugly right-wing political agenda.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 03:25 PM

Damn! What I miss because I can't access Mudcat at work.

Well, I am not going to rise to the dissenters. Not worth my time.

What I am going to say is YAYRAH Joanie!

I will add both Facebook and Myspace as friends or join the group or whatever it is I do, forthwith.

Hmmm? Is there a Folk Against Facism on Twitter?

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 03:30 PM

Personnally I do not think the BNP have a right to breath let alone speak! There should be no platform for racism ever!

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Peace
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 03:33 PM

Mudcat management seems to disagree with you, Mrs Duck.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 03:41 PM

"
Personnally I do not think the BNP have a right to breath let alone speak! There should be no platform for racism ever!"

Let them speak, with every lie they tell, they dig their grave deeper.

By th way (and I blame JoanieC for this, *LOL*) I'm now a member of facebook and am a member of the Folk Against Fascism group, seek out the photograph of the cover of Battle of the Field (in seemed appropriate.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Kampervan
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 03:49 PM

Sorry Mrs Duck, but I believe that you're wrong.

I loath the BNP and their view of the world, but the minute that you remove their right to speak then you become as bad as them.

The important to thing to do is to speak against them and make sure that everyone knows the evil that lies behind their propaganda.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Jeri
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 03:55 PM

Keeping people from posting is like keeping people from shouting out their opinions on a crowded city street corner.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 03:58 PM

"Then let's DO that on their fucking site. NOT on MUdcat."

It's called freedom of speech...deny that and as has been pointed out, you become as bad as the enemy

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 04:00 PM

As with when we vote for parliament, it's all about numbers. If there's one post here supporting or appearing to support the BNP, let there be hundreds, thousands, saying the opposite.

I say the opposite.

Let them have their say, but let it be a whisper against a roar for reason, decency, tolerance, goodwill, equality and welcome.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Peace
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 04:01 PM

Then tell management to allow the BNP as many threads as they want. NOT just one.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Peace
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 04:02 PM

Or are people going to give 'freedom of speech' lip service?

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Lox
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 04:29 PM

I don't condone the throwing of eggs.


I think it undermines the protest and allows the BNP to claim the moral high ground.

Note that I did not say it gives them the moral high ground, just that it allows them to claim it.


I completely condone Folk against Fascism as it constitutes a forum in which the issue of Fascist politics can be constructively and informatively be addressed.


Bubblyrat, well done for voting the way you did. My personal view is that UKIP are atrocious, but they are at least a party of issues, even if only on a shallow level.

Your vote for the Greens well and truly puts me in my place.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 04:33 PM

Sorry, is that addressed at me?

By all means, as many as they want. This is Mudcat's greatest strength (and greatest weakness).

Our job is not to silence them (tempting though that is), it is to be better informed and more convincing than they are - and also to address the the things that cause people to support the BNP in the first place.

Because it is surely all of our faults that they exist, and now have that voice.

Tom Bliss

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 04:35 PM

Sorry Lox - that was to Peace

Tom

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: TheSilentOne
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 05:34 PM

Folk Against Fascism is a great idea, and hopefully will develop into a great movement.

A long time ago I was in the Anti-Nazi League. I don't think denying the BNP any platform is an effective tactic, but I DO think the opportunity should be taken to hold counter-demonstrations on every possible occasion.

I do have a dilemma because I can't accept that an organisation which excludes non-whites from membership should even have the right to exist in a democratic society. But.. I don't see how it can sensibly be banned.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Good Soldier Schweik
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 05:41 PM

If I was a middle bar singer at Sidmouth and Georgina Dale[MBSGeorge the unsuccessful BNP Chippenham candidate ] turned up I would walk out .

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Peace
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 05:41 PM

Not specifically, Tom. I didn't intend any offense to you. If you took any, sorry.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: jeddy
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 06:52 PM

i am in two minds here as are a lot of you i am sure.   as much as i would love to ban any bnp supporter from ever talking their crap on any platform, i also don't want to be just like them in that not everyone has a right to free speech. i would rather have them say what they want on places like this and have them shown for the ignorant, racist,etc. that they are. than them meeting in secret and jumping out of bushes with no way of knowing what they are up to and where they will go next.

sorry if that made no sense but i am sure you can work out where i was trying to go with it.

the protsters have just as much right to be heard as the people they were protesting about it is about convincing the public of which side has the better arguement, as for the eggs... i dissagree with any violence and any form of assult, but i must admit if i had seen it i probably would have found it funny.

i think we need to stay together and not to argue some small point that will ultimately lead to falling out amongst ourselves

the people united,
will never be defeated.

if we all do our bit then victory will be ours.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Peace
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 06:54 PM

I just applied to the Folk Against Fascism Myspace site. However, I ain't folk. Unless folk is the term used for people. I am that.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 07:10 PM

Some of the respondents above don't seem to have grasped the point about freedom of speech and fascists. They don't like freedom of speech, but are prepared to abuse it if people are foolish enough to give them a platform.
It is not about a civilised debate with reason and evidence prevailing. In an audience of 100, if 98 smug liberals walk away congratulating themselves that they have 'won ' the argument', but two despersate, angry and dispossesed youths are attracted to the fascist methods, and join, the fascists have a huge result. They would laugh at self satisfied dismissals, and continue to prey on the vulnerable, which the liberals have provided them with.
If this 'Debate' is legitimised by a public institution like a University or church, the result is harrassment of local minority groups, who see those who hate them being given credibility.
NO platform for Racists and fascists.....believe me, after being involved in these issues for over 35 years, every inch given is a probable mile taken.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Kampervan
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 07:49 PM

Sorry, T. t. C., when you start denying a platform to someone you disagree with, then the cure becomes worse than the disease.

Loathsome though the BNP may be, we have to use open democratic ways to defeat them; otherwise they go underground and become even more difficult to counter.

They are riding on the wake of the mess that the main parties have created. It's up to everyone of all political persuasions to help put right the sleaze and corruption and then make mainstream politics more attractive. That way voters won't feel the need to register a protest vote with bigots like the BNP.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Lox
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 08:35 PM

Like prostitution and drug dealing it goes underground.

On the surface it can be managed.

There is no way of rebutting arguments that are made behind closed doors.

Those two youths could be persuaded at any time.

They are less likely to be persuaded if there are other voices there pointing out the errors and misinformation of the BNP argument.

The key with all of the above is openness and honest well documented non judgemental information.

An educated person is a well armed and well prepared person.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Crow Sister
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 03:47 AM

Over 800 members already!
When I first looked at the site yesterday, it must have been brand new as it had about 30 members. Looking forward to seeing the website when up and running. Will the organiser/s be seeking charity status? I don't know how constructive or otherwise such a move might be, but it would seem a possible logical option for fund raising activities directed at awareness raising.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: theleveller
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 03:59 AM

"Personnally I do not think the BNP have a right to breath let alone speak! There should be no platform for racism ever! "

I'll second that! We have laws against inciting racial hatred, which is what BNP members do ever time they speak in public. The egg-throwers were merely drawing attention to the fact that these people need to be silenced or their invidious views could influence people, especially those who are exercising their voting rights for the first time, into thinking that this is legitimate politics.

Folk music has a long and honourable tradition of opposing extremism of this sort and I welcome the opportunity to be part of movement like Folk Against Fascism.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: GUEST,FTF ?
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 04:01 AM

Crow Sister -

Please elaborate upon your statement - SOURCE - Three Sources???

As others have commented German folk music has never fully recovered from the stain of being forced into prostitution to very dark political ends.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 04:09 AM

I always slightly worry when the spokespeople for these sorts of protests try to claim they are acting with the moral authority of their community - who elected them? I think it would be a far more honest and powerful statement to say:

"The first egg was for holocaust denial. The second was for inciting racial hatred. The third was for anti-semitism. The forth was for being a liar..." and so on.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 04:22 AM

I gather that someone variously calling himself "Richard Bridge" or "Hoff Bridge" is posting messages of support for the BNP at digg and sending abusive messages to members of the "folk against fascism" facebook group.

"Hoff" is short for "Hoffmeister".

There are only a very few places where I have used or been referred to by both names - and the 'cat is one of them.

But "Hoff Bridge" isn't me.

You may want to keep a wary eye on Daily Mail Reader - I suspect that he or his cronies are the guilty parties.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 04:36 AM

Only a suggestion.

Could this thread be mainly used for promoting the facebook group, promoting folk against facism gigs and events, discussions on the role of folk song and music in standing up to oppression both now and historically, and providing an opportunity for performers and audiences to identify themselves under the folk against fascism banner.

That would then keep the political debate in the two BS threads, and hopefully keep the trolls and BNP propagandists out of this one.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Good Soldier Schweik
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 04:49 AM

I was reluctant to join facebook,but since this is such an important issue,I have joined Folk against Fascism.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Vic Smith
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 06:07 AM

I don't want to see people like Joan and George repatriated

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: GUEST,Scotsman Over The Border
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 06:23 AM

Many thanks to Matthew Edwards for those links on the Roma and Travellers.

Let the BNP speak, their so-called policies last about two seconds when held up to any kind of scrutiny.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 07:03 AM

I'm not joining Facebook even for this, but on MySpace I'm glad to see that my friend request to FAF and theirs to me crossed in cyberspace!

And SPB-Cooperator: fully agreed - let's keep the political debate out of this thread and restrict discussions (as far as possible) to promoting this cause.

I'll put something on our web site too - especially if Folk against Fascism starts a real web site of its own and I can link to it. If someone hasn't started one yet, I'm offering free hosting space for it.

Anahata

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: treewind
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 07:07 AM

I'm not joining Facebook even for this, but on MySpace I'm glad to see that my friend request to FAF and theirs to me crossed in cyberspace!

And SPB-Cooperator: fully agreed - let's keep the political debate out of this thread and restrict discussions (as far as possible) to promoting this cause.

I'll put something on our web site too - especially if Folk against Fascism starts a real web site of its own and I can link to it. If someone hasn't started one yet, I'm offering free hosting space for it.

Anahata

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 07:27 AM

'Sorry, T. t. C., when you start denying a platform to someone you disagree with, then the cure becomes worse than the disease'

Kampervan, what exactly are you sorry about? Sounds either smug or patronising to me.

   We disagree, and it is not a trivial disagreement. I believe that it stances like yours that allowed fascism a foothold in the past, and could possibly do so again.

   Your quite accurate description of how civilised debate works in a kiberal democracy crucially relies on BOTH sides signing up to the rules. fascist groupd don't, they loathe and despise notions such as democracy and fre speeech. Whenever they have abused the democratic process to gaion a foothold, thet use the same process to suspend democracy and make fredom of speech a treasonable offence.
    The Psychology and tactics of fasxist movements is well documented, this is not a matter of opinion.
   Holding meetings, rallies, broadcasts etc. are used, when allowed, not to debate, but to syphon off the disaffected. No.... the two youths mentioned above could not have been recruited at any time, it is the particular circumstances in a highly charged political meeting that are used to prey on their emotions, not their intellect. having others present to refute the fascisit is negatively effective.... the targeted disaffected youths already feel betrayed and outcast by threxse pillars of the liberal society.
   Fortunately, most of our politiciana are not so naive. No-one, form any political party, was willing to share a platform with the Nationakl Front in the European referendum debate of the 70's, and the NF were denied a platform for their hatred. Nowadays, all parties refuse to appear on programmes like question time if the BNP are invited. Again, a platform that would be used to intimidate and recruit the dispossessed is denied.
   Mosley and his Blackshirts were stopped, not by debate, but because working class activists in solidarity with the jewish community built barricades an rrefused the Fascists their 'legal, democratic right' to 'peacefully' demonstrate and propagandise. The 'battle of Cable Street' is a landmark in opposing fascism
   NO platform for racisits and fascists, ever.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: treewind
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 09:16 AM

"NO platform for racisits and fascists, ever"
You simply can't say that in a post that criticises another group for despising free speech!
The uncomfortable corollary of free speech is that it allows others to say things you disagree with. Of couse, as Hubert Humphrey famously said, "The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously" and Voltaire "I don't agree with what you say, but will fight to the death for your right to say it". I don't actually feel comfortable about the "incitement to racial hatred" act because it's the thin end of the wedge of censorship of free speech.

Anyway, nobody can stop Folk against Fascism from promoting its own message, so that's what we should be doing, loudly and frequently.

Anahata

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Pip Radish
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 09:37 AM

I think this is a brilliant initiative (and so does Pip Radish, who will be back shortly).

We (liberal anti-fascists) tend to tie ourselves in knots about freedom of speech. I think it's worth distinguishing between what the law guarantees and what people want. Where I live, there was massive opposition to the opening of a new Tesco's last year - so much so that they were initially refused planning permission. They went to appeal and won, and they duly built the store and opened it - as they had every right to do. But if protesters had stopped the building going ahead, I think most people around here would have thought they were in the right.

The BNP have every right to organise as a legal political party, and Griffin is an elected MEP and has every right to do that job: I would be 100% opposed to any attempt to ban the party or to have the fat fascist locked up. But if anti-fascists want to make it a bit harder for them to organise, or for Griffin to get his message across, then I'm not going to tell them they're in the wrong. It may be a tactical error - the counter-demo yesterday almost certainly was - but that's a separate issue.

Anyway, FaF is a great initiative. Pip isn't joining Facebook either, but he's with you in spirit.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 09:56 AM

I accept richard bridges point that freedom of speech does not include the right to shout "fire" in a crowded theatre.

However, I also think that a well targeted, concise and non pompous confrontation of the BNP can have the result of the anti BNP message spreading.

Those two hypothetical lads might go back to their estate after witnessing such an encounter and carry the fight on when they encounter it there in a way that they might not have done had they not had the chance to hear the BNP view properly tested and shown up.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 10:11 AM

As for the eggs, guess whose ugly mug was on the front page of "The Metro" today ...

(the Metro is a free national paper found on buses and trains all over the country and as such is probably th most widely read paper in the UK).


And as it was because of the egg throwing that it got there, it meant that the papers had to focus on that aspect of the story.

It meant that Griffin got to be quoted giving his response.

Now there's a big f***ing platform if ever there was one ... well done egg throwers!!!

It meant that the newspapers, in all fairness, so as not to be seen condoning any type of assault, had to ask the egg throwers what the hell they were doing.

Do you think that any newspaper is going to condone that kind of approach?

They will report the story.

The story was that an elected politician was assaulted.

It meant that the arguments against the BNP were drowned in a scrum and that Nick Griffin got to stand up in front of the whole country and look ... ahem ... whiter than white.


No Platform for Fascists?


I'm afraid that slogans like that will not cut it as a strategy to beat the BNP.


You have to plan more than one move ahead. You have to be cleverer than them.


You have to prove it.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Big Mick
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 10:18 AM

What are you afraid of? That they will lure some easily influenced person into their snare? That is pretty paternalistic, and shows a lack of respect for the intelligence of average folks. To me it seems that it is our job to expose their ugly agenda. FAF is a great start. Challenging their point of view everywhere they spout it is the hard work. Banning is a lazy response, and it doesn't work. Doing so gives them "high road, victim" status. I prefer them in the light of day where their bigotry is easily seen.

And remember that this sword has two edges. When you limit one persons ability to espouse ideas (even vile bigotted ones), how do we justify not limiting yours.

And finally, as a matter of policy, we don't limit what folks talk about, with very few exceptions, such as anything that is considered personal attack.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 10:36 AM

100% with you Mick, on all counts. It is this potential of turning them to "martyrs" that worries me most of all. No, I prefer the BNP to continue and act as a focus for their hateful policies - that way we know were the danger lies. And by all means, let them join us in debate. Not sloganeering, name-calling or misquoting but normal, common-or-garden debate.

We wouldn't change their minds or persuade them, of course. No one can. They have thought all these things through and made up their minds - if we think differently then we would be naive. But a public debate gets to be heard/read by the public. It is for their benefit that we should have it. Every chance we get.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 10:49 AM

Sorry, that last GUEST was cookieless me...

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: folkandroots
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 10:59 AM

The problem perhaps with such debates is what you could be debating isnt what they actually think nor stand for but a very much watered down (for public consumption) version of this, the holocaust denial, enforced sterilisation the more dangerous racist agenda will be kept underwraps. Personally I have no doubt that some of those who have joined have been fooled (and are probably fools) and arent quite aware of what it is they have joined.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: theleveller
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 11:00 AM

"And as it was because of the egg throwing that it got there, it meant that the papers had to focus on that aspect of the story."

So you think the protesters might have over-egged it a bit?

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 11:12 AM

Deal me in. I endorse everything said in this thread, particularly what Crow Sister posted.

The problem, as I see it, in denying the BNP pond life a platform is that they might be perceived as martyrs -

"Just as we told you - those lefties deny us a platform because they are feared of our message".

(Just realised that I am repeating that which Big Mick, and George P, said above. Duh ! {it has been a long day] ).

May I say that I abominate the BNP and everything it stands for, just in case my comments above might be misinterpreted.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 11:12 AM

'NO platform for racists and fascists' doesn't mean that they can't organise or say what they want.....and others are free to counteract them, shout them down or whatever,...thats a matter of tactical preferences.
It means not affording them a platform, i.e inviting them on yo your own or others'platforms, and campaigning to stop public institutions offering platforms to those who use them to intimidate and harrass part of the community.
There are many things that are legal, but are wrong. legislation always falls behind shifts in public opinion and tolearance.
Remeber Cable Street.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 11:16 AM

"So you think the protesters might have over-egged it a bit? "

eggsackly!
-Tommy Handley, ITMA

wonder who was egging them on, and then egging them off?

"I prefer them in the light of day where their bigotry is easily seen."

one more time.......

"The British National Party would probably make it into a parliament elected by proportional representation, too. It would shine a torch into the dirty little corner where the BNP defecate on our democracy, and that would be much more powerful than duffing them up in the street — which I'm also in favour of."

- Billy Bragg in an interview with The Guardian, 2004

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Big Mick
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 11:18 AM

Folkandroots, how did you figure it out? Do you believe that most others are not as capable as you of figuring it out? I ask this not to be argumentative, but to make a point. As to your point about the real agenda vs. What is being put out for public debate, that is known as shifting the premise, as well as having a hidden agenda. Of course they will do that. It is the only way that people with vile agendas can appeal to the great middle. It is our job to expose that, and have enough respect for the intelligence of average folks to get it.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Banjiman
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 11:24 AM

You might have seen this but as far as I understand it this is properly researched at Lancaster University:

    "On a party-by-party basis, the average (childhood) IQ scores for 2001 voters were:

       Green - 108.3

       Liberal Democrat - 108.2

       Conservative - 103.7

       Labour – 103

       Plaid Cymru - 102.5

       Scottish National - 102.2

       UK Independence - 101.1

       British National - 98.4

       Did not vote/None of the above - 99.7"

My point is you're not dealing with "average" folks..........

Paul

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 11:26 AM

Anyone who saw Nick Griffin being interviewed on Sky news will have seen one sad sick sorry bigoted son of a bitch being tied up in knots by one not overly penetrating interviewer. When the guy asked him about the ethnic qualification of BNP membership, Griffin had no answer. When he was asked why the BNP wouldn't allow the building of mosques in this country, he made a complete fool of himself. When he was asked about repatriation and the rights of British born 'ethnic' peoples he could not give a consistent answer.

That is the way to fight fascism. Show the illogicality of their so called policies. Show the socio/economic/ecological disaster which would result if this bunch of plonkers ever got into power. Show anyone who thinks otherwise what the logical outcome of a BNP government would mean in terms of their personal freedom. Demonstrate against them. March against them. Leaflet against them. Barrack their street meetings and picket their private gatherings. In short,exhaust all reasonable avenues of protest.

But throwing eggs is just plain stupid. It is counterproductive, and it is about what one would expect from the tattooed skinheads which the BNP seems designed to attract.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 11:30 AM

"I gather that someone variously calling himself "Richard Bridge" or "Hoff Bridge" is posting messages of support for the BNP at digg and sending abusive messages to members of the "folk against fascism" facebook group.

"Hoff" is short for "Hoffmeister".

There are only a very few places where I have used or been referred to by both names - and the 'cat is one of them.

But "Hoff Bridge" isn't me.

You may want to keep a wary eye on Daily Mail Reader - I suspect that he or his cronies are the guilty parties."

How dreadfully unpleasant.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 11:33 AM

C

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 11:39 AM

"But throwing eggs is just plain stupid. It is counterproductive"

a waste of eggs as well!

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Kampervan
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 11:40 AM

T.t.C., I was being neither smug nor patronising and I apologise if that's how it came across. I shouldn't have started my posting with the word 'sorry'.

You have your opinion and I have mine. Whilst I agree with you about the potentially appalling efffects of the BNP obtaining any form of power, I disagree with you about preventing them from being able to organise or speak.
I have sufficient faith in the intelligence and commonsense of the majority of the British public to believe that they would never vote these Fascists into power.
Their appeal will only ever be to a minority.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: greg stephens
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 12:12 PM

Now, call me naive, but wouldn't it be a good thing at grass-roots level if folk clubs and festivals were a little more welcoming to people playing/singing the traditional folk music of a more diverse range of cultures? I have spent various chunks of my life recording the music of various immigrant/refugee/asylum seeker people in this country, because I love folk music basically. To put the matter bluntly, this is not an area in which many English folkies take an interest. I think a practical way for folkies to express their anti-racism would be to be a little bit more inclusive at the level of the organisationm of their own venues. The politics is the personal.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Big Mick
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 12:15 PM

Paul Banjiman, with respect, your post is very troubling. I have known many people of average or even below average "IQ" who are great contributors to society. Conversely, Adolph Hitler had an IQ higher than Al Gore's. It seems to me that you are implying something that is very troubling.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 12:16 PM

I am delighted at the formation of Folk Against Fascism. And I must say that I was also very cheered to see the odious Nick Griffin and his nazi mate getting their comeuppance yesterday outside Parliament.
They did not look like steely jawed members of the master race as they fled in panic to their waiting car.Well done to the Unite Against Fascism supporters for confronting those vile fascists and no platform for nazis!
ifor

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 12:21 PM

"To put the matter bluntly, this is not an area in which many English folkies take an interest"

Speak for yourself, and maybe, just maybe, it's time for some people to take off the blinkers and have a look around!! A good start would be to join the Folk Against Fascism facebook group.
and Folk Against Fascism not being inclusive..Oh come on...yeesh!!

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: MartinRyan
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 12:24 PM

My point is you're not dealing with "average" folks..........

You talking about the Greens? They're the furthest from the average in the set you quote!

The (mis)use of IQ data in this way is ironic in view of the fact that such measures have long been criticised for having racist overtones.

Regards
p.s. More seriously, of course, a little knowledge of the Normal Distribution wouldn't go amiss.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: greg stephens
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 12:30 PM

Riflerman: you said "speak for yourself" implying I am not interested in cultural diversity in traditional music. I think if you look at my post, you will see that it is a main, indeed an obesssional interest of mine. I was pointing out that it is not an interest shared by many folk club organisers, in my experience.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Banjiman
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 12:31 PM

Big Mick, I'm implying nothing, merely posting the outcome of what I assume is validated research.

Your suggestion was not to insult the intelligence of average folks..... I was merely posting a clue as to where the BNP leadership aim their messages.

Please don't look for "isms" where they don't exist. As an ex mental health nurse I am fully aware of the value that all sorts of apparently "challenged" & "different" people can bring to society.

I don't think there was anything in my post above that questioned anyone's contribution to society.

For avoidance of doubt I'm not a Green or Lib Dem voter so claim no great I.Q. for myself.

Paul

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Crow Sister
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 12:37 PM

For anyone interested (I don't think it's been posted here yet?), here's a link to the FaF MySpace page

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 12:38 PM

Personally, I'm not interested in much non-English folk song (apart from the occasional Scottish song and the very occasional Irish or American song - and I do do some contemporary stuff too) not least because if my ability to understand the lyrics is diminished by language matters much of the song is not truly available to me, and also because I deeply regret the lack of interest in traditional English song, but on the occasions that I have seen African or Asian or "influenced by" players in folk song sessions, they have always been very warmly welcomed.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 12:44 PM

Greg Stephens. "Now, call me naive, but wouldn't it be a good thing at grass-roots level if folk clubs and festivals were a little more welcoming to people playing/singing the traditional folk music of a more diverse range of cultures?"

By God, you could sing that if you had an air to it. I don't think the folk revival is quite as precious these days as it once was. But when I got into ethnic music in the early '70s, hardly anybody I knew was even remotely interested. It wasn't that they didn't enjoy listening to the stuff, it wasn't British and the folk revival was about celebrating British folk music. I wonder how many seeds those people sewed in the minds of future BNP leaders.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Crow Sister
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 12:45 PM

G. Stephens: "I was pointing out that it is not an interest shared by many folk club organisers, in my experience."

The implications of this comment in relation to the core issues of this thread, remind me so much of the charming (and equally stubborn) innocence of The Shire concerning the dangers of Mordor, prior to the Shire's scourging by Saruman.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: greg stephens
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 12:57 PM

(Half of my last message went missing in the ether. What I actually said was)
Rifleman: you said "speak for yourself" implying I am not interested in cultural diversity in traditional music. I think if you look at my post, you will see that it is a main, indeed an obsessional interest of mine. I was pointing out that it is not an interest shared by many folk club organisers, in my experience. I think it would make a great statement if places where folkies gather(eg the middle bar at the Anchor in Sidmouth) were a little bit more ethnically integrated, on occasion. Then BNP singingers turning up to infiltrate would get the point. In my own experience, wonderful evenings can happen if white liberal middle-class folkies invite Zimbabwean singers or Kurdish fiddlers to come down the pub and swap songs. I think this a practical and music-orientated way to make a political point and have a thoroughly good time while doing so.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Crow Sister
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 01:10 PM

I'd make a broad guess that JC & FaF would promote such notions likewise in any campaign stratagies Greg. Oureach of sucj kind,would be especially applicable with immigrant folk musics. Most of whom, ironically, seem to do a rather better job of maintaining their cultural traditions within Britian, than the English in particular have been themselves.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 01:17 PM

"The problem perhaps with such debates is what you could be debating isnt what they actually think nor stand for but a very much watered down (for public consumption) version of this, the holocaust denial, enforced sterilisation the more dangerous racist agenda will be kept underwraps."


I absolutely agree that this could happen ... if the anti fascist approach is to respond to the BNP's initiative.

On the other hand, if the Anti Fascist groups take the initiative and constantly ask these questions and demand evidence for the BNP's claims then that ensures that the right issues are kept in the spotlight.

The debate is not engaged in to be won in the eyes of its participants, but in the eyes of its observers.

Much as a prosecuting Lawyer does not argue to convince a defendant that he is wrong, but to convince a jury.

The Jury here is the public.

If the BNP are given opportunities over and over again to claim that anti fascists are undemocratic trouble makers it will seriously damage their campaign in the eyes of the majority of people watching from outside; the jury.

The anti fascist groups need to raise awareness of who the BNP really are and get the public interested.

Newspapers sell to the public, and they will print what they think will sell.

If the public are baying for answers at the BNP's heels the press will bay with them.

there is absolutely no room for 'passive' resistance. Resistance to the BNP must be proactive and pre-emptive.

It must also be effective - and shouting abuse or trying to ban them will not work, es[ecially now that they have equal political rights to all the other elected parties.

The effective response is to put them on the defensive.

Ask the difficult questions politely and clearly so they can be heard and understood with no ambiguity in a room full of hecklers.

Ask politely and clearly for evidence of their claims, stressing that without it you will be unable to verify them


Keep it simple, keep it calm and kick them off the moral highground.

Expose them for who they are.

learn their arguments - they all say the same thing - and you won't be rattled by their rhetoric.

Stick to the point - don't be distracted by attempts to change the subject.

Know where the exits are!!

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: greg stephens
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 01:23 PM

Crow Sister: I am sure you are right about strategies and so on, they are, or soon will be,in place. But things like "strategies", in my experience, often just lead to big concerts with self-congratulatory line-ups, statements to the press, grant applications etc etc. All very well. But I was proposing something that individuals should do, street by street, pub by pub, club by club, festival by festival. You know, each person sweeps outside the house, the street will be clean. Don't wait for the council to send a team with a lorry.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Crow Sister
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 01:36 PM

"I was proposing something that individuals should do, street by street, pub by pub, club by club, festival by festival."

Sure Greg, I follow you. Though in relation to the idea of promoting such 'strategies' of outreach on a collective ground floor level, considering the general low level of current initiative in such undertakings (of which you speak), broader awareness raising arguably has to come before individual clubs, festivals etc. actually begin initiating such action by themselves.

I think awareness raising, including adopting approaches of the very same kind as you are describing, is indeed currently the prime purpose of FaF, thus I suspect we are essentially agreeing?

That all sounded far more complicated than it needed to ;-)

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Miskin Man
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 02:58 PM

Well said Lox :

"The debate is not engaged in to be won in the eyes of its participants, but in the eyes of its observers.

Much as a prosecuting Lawyer does not argue to convince a defendant that he is wrong, but to convince a jury.

The Jury here is the public."

Much as I laughed at the egg throwing, it does seem more use in the end to allow the public at large to hear the rantings of these evil people. Only then will the "jury" be able to judge.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: treewind
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 03:12 PM

Joan said there would be a web site.
Any news of this yet?

Anahata

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 03:28 PM

Well, we have a domain, and I understand that the website is under construction as we speak. These things take a bit of time! But it's on its way, I promise. I'll post news as soon as there is some.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 03:31 PM

Riflerman: you said "speak for yourself" implying I am not interested in cultural diversity in traditional music...

I was thinking anyhting do grandiose and pompous. All I WAS thinking about was actually

"maybe, just maybe, it's time for some people to take off the blinkers and have a look around!! A good start would be to join the Folk Against Fascism facebook group"

Did I mention "cultural diversity in traditional music" Nope!

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: TheSnail
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 03:36 PM

Crow Sister

I think awareness raising, including adopting approaches of the very same kind as you are describing, is indeed currently the prime purpose of FaF

Actually, I don't think it is. I don't think they set out to instruct people on what sort of music they should play or promote.

From the Facebook group -

This group is being created to take a stand against the appropriation of folk culture by the BNP. They want to take our music. We will not let them.

The message I take is that we should play "our" music for the love of the music without fear of being accused of being right wing little Englanders. If we move away from it, we are just handing it over to the BNP without a fight.

Bryan Creer

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: treewind
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 03:56 PM

I suggest anyone here with a web site should say something about this. I've added to mine. This is not meant to be gratuitous self-promotion (I expect most of you know what we do anyway), but as an example of a way to help publicise FAF:
www.treewind.co.uk/mha
Comments for further improvement would be welcome.

I didn't link to the BNP's own site - not sure if that's wise or not.

Anahata

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 04:02 PM

Anahata, that's absolutely brilliant.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 04:08 PM

I provided links to both the myspace and facebook sites on a couple of my websites, that was done yesterday.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Peter the Squeezer
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 04:38 PM

I'm not into either myspace or facebook, but this has my wholehearted support. Music, nor any other art form should NEVER be allowed to be used as a platform for the kind of evil distortions put about by filth like the BNP. I look forward to the website coming on line.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Surreysinger
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 04:54 PM

>These things take a bit of time!
LOL! 48 hours ... I come back from work to find that the FB group is now over 1000 strong in terms of membership. I call that rather impressive.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Anne Lister
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 05:00 PM

The "cultural diversity" argument is a toughie. Trouble is, our own culture (morris dancing, folk dancing, singing folk songs)has been so much the butt of stupid media comments over the years and we have become so afraid of expressing pride in our own country that this is precisely where the BNP and other fascist groups think of taking a stand.
I want the opportunity to stand up proudly for England (as well as Wales, Scotland and Ireland) without anyone assuming I'm a jingoistic moron. And I've written songs about that and if I found the BNP had attempted to take them on board I would instantly find ways and means to take legal action to stop them.
At WOMEX last year I was appalled to find that the majority of "world music" from the UK sounded like music from other cultures, (because it was - sometimes from people whose heritage was from other cultures but sometimes from musicians who clearly wanted to be from elsewhere)and that there was very little recognition that the UK has its own indigenous cultures. Note the plural.

I think everyone should be proud of their own heritage and background, and that includes us. I don't feel the need to include stories from other cultures when I'm storytelling, especially when the majority of children in our schools don't get exposed to the local heritage at any stage - because we're all trying so hard to be "multicultural" and avoid bias.

So I'm firmly with Folk Against Fascism, very firmly against the BNP and all it stands for (not mad keen on UKIP either, and have never managed to be a Tory) and I don't see a conflict of interests if I stick with performing and studying stories, music, dance and song from these islands. Doesn't make me racist to want to promote my own cultural heritage.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 05:48 PM

Greg,
Have you taken a look at the line ups for various Off The Tracks Festivals, Castle Donington, Derbyshire over the years?

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Stringsinger
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 06:10 PM

My instinct is that the egg throwing was a set-up. During demonstrations of the Vietnam War in the US there were right-wing political operatives acting as rabble-rousers to incite violence.

A little history for some folkies here. The Left-wing movement of the US championed the
folk music collecting, archiving and the development of folklorists and folk song collectors. Pete Seeger spearheaded an approach to folk music which was ultimately the foundation for the commercial folk music revival in the US and abroad as well. Some would call that a political act. Although it involved some politics, it was more of a movement like what is being promoted here.

Actually, politics can't be separated from the arts any more than it can from any other expression or endeavor in life. Even the idea of anti-politics is a political statement.

The BNP is a dangerous right-wing organization that threatens real democracy. Like the
Operation Rescue movement in the US it could be a platform for violence. So far, it may not have crossed the line but it could easily become a so-called "terrorist" platform.

Folk Singer Against Fascism has venerable historical roots here in the US. We had People's Songs, Broadside Magazine, and People's Artists in New York. Paul Robeson was a champion of the political expression of anti-Fascism through song. Woody Guthrie was a songwriter who spent his life writing songs about anti-Fascism. Josh White, Leadbelly, Big Bill Broonzy and Richard Dyer-Benett supported left-wing causes in the early days to speak out against anti-Fascism. There is a strong connection with anti-Fascism in the roots of American folk music which was nurtured by the Left-wing in the Thirties and Forties and onward.

Like Operation Rescue, he BNP might be metaphorically in danger of "yelling fire in a crowded theater" which is an infringement of free speech.

More power to the FAF.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Folknacious
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 06:27 PM

More power to the FAF.

And FAFing about could gain a whole new respectability!

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Azizi
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 06:57 PM

I look forward to visiting the Folk Against Fascism website. And I hope that that website will include educational essays such as Frank Hamilton's (Stringsinger's) 10 Jun 09 - 06:10 PM post. Hopefully, readers' comments could be posted in response to an essay, similar to what is done on a number of blogs such as this one.

Here's another suggestion for the content of the FaF website-like that above linked blog, comments/essays/articles, it could have been posted elsewhere before being posted on the FaF website (or the FaF blog) or be cross posted on the FaF site and another site at the same time.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: David el Gnomo
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 07:00 PM

Hey George - When did you become Yorgos?

Whatcher mean- You always was?

I have enough problems with your surname. How come you can't have a good English name like Polakow or Mistry or Li or Abedoye or... :-P

On a more serious note, I do agree with Greg. I have tried my best to get a good mix at Swinton but only been sucessful with Tuup (Ghania), Orleck Dance Troup (Ukraine), Boat Band (Stoke) and some Greek bloke who sings wonderful songs, about anything and everything, in English:-)

The trouble I find though is the difficulty getting good world music at the same sort of deal we do for everyone - Ie - The door and raffle with the occasional subsidy from meagre club funds. I know I have talked to Greg about this before and the trouble is that I realy do not know how to get the music deriving from other cultures into our club. I do hope and pray that eventualy we will get floor singers and 'jobbing' musicians from other traditions in our mix. As has happened in other aspects of life, food being the prime example, surely we will eventualy get all cultures represented in the 'folk scene' (whatever that is). Won't we? After all, I genuinely believe that there is a general acceptance of other cultures to our shores, with the primary execption of those of the BNP persuasion. It is what makes English culture so strange!

As to freedom of speech. Yes, well. As well as the aforementioned crying of fire in a crowded place we should also remember that freedom cannot and should not cross the laws of the land. If that freedom of speech is inciting racial hatred it is already illegal. Anyone who cannot see the difference between freedom of speech and restriction of crime deserves all they get.

Anyway, off to join FaF right now.

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Azizi
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 07:02 PM

And hopefully, there will be a Preview feature for comments-not that I would use it. LOL

Here's the corrected sentence from my post before this one:

"...like that above linked blog, [the policy of that site could be that] comments/essays/articles could have been posted elsewhere before being posted on the FaF website (or the FaF blog) or be cross posted on the FaF site and another site at the same time."

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: greg stephens
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 07:05 PM

I find it a little sad that the minute I started talking about people being a little more welcoming to a spot of cultural diversity,we get comeback from people saying "What's wrong with sticking up for Brit folk?".As if they were opposites.Actually, the two are perfectly compatible. I referred to my own work in recording refugee/asylum seeker music in England. I don't expect many people to be familiar with what I do, but I can assure anyone that I have also been researching, publishing, promulgating,recording, teaching, performing and generally enthusing over indigenous local English music with considerable vigour since the 60's.And if you don't know my own music, you are probably familiar with people who have learnt tunes and songs off me. I love folk music. That's what I live and breathe.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 07:14 PM

Thank yopu Frank Hamilton.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: romany man
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 07:47 PM

a simple question the old "what is fascism" i could say i daily face racist remarks cos of me birth race,is that fascism?, I still cant find anywhere to graze my horses with tempory stables? yet people i share the present field with, (non gypsies) were granted grazing rights localy? is that fascism? when i go to my local shop, the staff wander about behind me but not others, is that it, yet how many of you have said the old, bloody pikey comment or bloody gypsies, how many of you have objected to sites being opened for us, perhaps thats it, how many of you would jump to defend your local romanies ? perhaps thats it, so i ask how many of you non romanies know the difference between romanies and non romanies, thats just one part. Who decides what is patriotic and what is fascist, anyone who can deny the holocaust is off thier bloody head,( but then so am i, and i got a certificate) how long will it be before the patriots are classed as fascists, sadly its a thin line in my opinion, what next folk against commies, or against rock and roll , im not being flipant but what will folk against anything achieve if the general populace in general is against fascism , a much greater number, cant stop it what can we do.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Tyke
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 07:48 PM

All You Fascists

I'm gonna tell you fascists
You may be surprised
The people in this world
Are getting organized
You're bound to lose
You fascists bound to lose

Race hatred cannot stop us
This one thing we know
Your poll tax and Jim Crow
And greed has got to go
You're bound to lose
You fascists bound to lose.

All of you fascists bound to lose:
I said, all of you fascists bound to lose:
Yes sir, all of you fascists bound to lose:
You're bound to lose! You fascists:
Bound to lose!

People of every color
Marching side to side
Marching 'cross these fields
Where a million fascists dies
You're bound to lose
You fascists bound to lose!

I'm going into this battle
And take my union gun
We'll end this world of slavery
Before this battle's won
You're bound to lose
You fascists bound to lose!


Woody Guthrie

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 08:07 PM

Romany man, all those incidents were cerainly prejudiced, probably racist, they may or may not have been fascist.
   fascism is a political belief in having absolute power to order society as the fascists think fit. Which is normally to do with state control ( certainly not right wing, economically)elimination of other voices, and extermination of those who don't contribute. The word facism comes from the fasces, a bundle of twigs and an axe which was the symbol of power, including punishment and death, of the Roman magistrtates.
facism is not necessarily racist, in monocultures it finds expresion in highlighting some other ( any other) difference. If we were all of the same race, fascists would find other distinctions. Why? because inorder to gain absolute power they must invent an 'other' who is to be feared, whoo must be guarded against, which means the guardians must have full power. ( think Mc Carthy in the 50's and Bush's 'War on terror) This means, in the emergency state, civil liberties must be suspended, never to return.
Facism is an attack on us all, not just the Jews, blacks, communists, islamists who are taking the brunt at any one time.
Wishing you well , Romany Man, just don't call me Gorgoi.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: jeddy
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 08:09 PM

romany man,

i have no problem at all with anyone who camps somewhere they shouldn't be as long as they have done no damage to the site and clean up after themselves.

i am sure that you have often been tarred by the same brush as new age travellers most groups of whom i have ever met or seen i have dispised as troublemakwers, thieves and litterers, who make no effort to look after the site they are on or respect the locals wherever they find themselves.

we have a batteredvan and a poorly second hand caravan and we can arrord the caravan club here in the u.k, so why can't travellers who have big posh vans and posh 4x4 that pull them.

whenever we have stayed off site we have always made sure we spoke to the locals with respect and left no trace that we were ever there,as i am sure you do.

sorry for ranting at you when i know that it is not the romanys' fault but i get very angry at just the mention of the new age types.

typical example,, stainsby folk festival, it is only on a small feild and there are bins everywhere. in the mornings you will see o laod of glass bottles along with the metal lids right beside the bins....this is a cow field where the cows have been know to get the bottle tops stuck in their feet, very environmentlyfrindly i am sure.


oops i did it again i shall go before i get shot.. lol

take care romany man and be careful it is a nasty world we live in   x x

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: TheSnail
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 09:38 PM

greg stephens

I think a practical way for folkies to express their anti-racism would be to be a little bit more inclusive at the level of the organisationm of their own venues.

I'm sorry, Greg, but, speaking for myself, the prime motivation for being involved in a folk club is the music. The music for which I have a particular fondness is the traditional music of the British Isles with a preference for the folk music of England. This is an aesthetic/artistic statement, not a political one. I am more than happy to share my enthusiasm with anyone and everyone, regardless of race, colour or creed.

I do what I can to oppose racism to the point that I have been concerned for my own physical well-being (look through my Mudcat postings) but that is not why I commit my time to helping to run a folk club.

Are you seriously suggesting that folk club organisers should promote music that they don't find interesting just to cock a snook at the BNP?

Bryan Creer

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Peace
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 09:48 PM

I am amazed at the response FAF has received in so brief a time. I have been guilty of getting into some fights with people from the trad folk scene in England. My apologies. Many people have joined ('become friends' on the Myspace site that FAF has). I wish to applaud people like Bryan, Ruth A and George P (who it seems wishes to be called yoghurt for some strange reason) and that takes courage. I posted the following on my own MySpace page:

"To my friends on Myspace:

There is a very important Myspace site I hope you will consider joining. Its name is

Folk Against Fascism

In the UK, there is a very dangerous group of people called the British Nationalist Party. They sleep with the likes of the KKK, Aryan Nations and other hate groups. Please consider giving them your support. The garbage hasn't gone away: it's still out there, and now it's getting elected based on lies, distortions of truth and intimidation. WE are stronger than they are--together. Please, let's show them that.

Bruce"

I hope it helps. I have always admired people with guts, and you folks have plenty of that.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 10:00 PM

Irene (Greek for 'peace'), my tub runneth over. I'll raise a pint to you (a drinking Yorgo). Seriously, thanks and well done.
My name will be reinstated in a few days, after the kerfuffle over MBSGeorge has died down.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Ian Fyvie
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 11:20 PM

"....fascism is not necessarily racist, in monocultures it finds expresion in highlighting some other ( any other) difference. "(Tug the Cox)

Fascism is "Dictatorsh[p of the Capitalists" according to GB Shaw (1922).

Put these two quotes together and a few more things emerge.

Fascism is a phenomenon of Capitalism - not something on its own. It enables Capitalism to operate without the 'trappings' of Democracy, Rights at Work, the Right to Strike, Rights to Protest - things that were RELUCTANTLY permitted to citizens and workers progressively over 150 or so years.

And we all know Western Capitalism is in deep trouble right now. Though the scapegoats picked on by a given Fascist movement may be racian ones, they may not be and one should be particularly aware that a Fascist partiy of today may spotlight its multi ethnic, and socially Liberal spectrum of supporters.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Azizi
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 11:24 PM

At this time Folk Against Fascism's Facebook page has 1,116 friends while the Folk Against Fascism MySpace page has 168 friends.

This may reflect the fact that Facebook is more popular than MySpace, at least according to this article:

Facebook Overtakes MySpace as Most Popular Social Networking Site
BY LEE BAINS — JAN 27TH 2009 AT 3:35PM

"Undergoing a growth spurt of 127-percent over the course of 2008, Facebook finally overtook social networking giant MySpace by drawing 222 million users to Facebook.com in December. Facebook's first month to beat out MySpace was last April.

Not limited to the social networking arena, Facebook's success is impressive even in the most general category; Facebook.com registered as the Internet's seventh most popular destination in December, trailing only Web giants Google, Microsoft, Yahoo, AOL, Wikipedia and eBay."

http://www.switched.com/2009/01/27/facebook-overtakes-myspace-as-most-popular-social-networking-sit/

**

It should be noted that the Folk Against Fascism (FaF) Facebook page was launched one day before the FaF MySpace page. Maybe one of the reason why so many more folks signed on to the Facebook page rather than the MySpace page is that some people have both a Facebook and a MySpace page. Perhaps their reasoning is that if they sign up with one of these FaF pages, they don't have to sign up for the other. Or maybe the truth of the matter is that there really are more folk social networking though Facebook than through MySpace.

Personally, I like the aesthetics at MySpace better (I'm referring to the color backgrounds, the music sound clips, and the different types of friend photos -the logos, the moving pictures and more). Actually, I don't really use my MySpace page for social networking. MySpace seems to me to be a modern version of the custom of exchanging business cards. I launched my MySpace page to promote my website and to feature some creative videos of children that I find on YouTube. Because I like learning about different types of music and cultures, I purposely search for interesting friends throughout the world. And I admit that I often send friend invites to people and groups mostly based on their colorful, eye catching member photos. I enjoy visiting those friends pages, checking out their music, and learning about their cultures. MySpace is a cultural experience for me.

This has little to do with the topic of the thread except to say that I decided not to think of there being any competition between the number of people who sign up as friends with FaF Facebook and FaF MySpace. Maybe that's because if there were a contest, Facebook would win which means "my side" would lose. But I know that's not the point. It's just that this subject is so heavy duty, that my spirit wants to find some way to lighten up. And this was one way I thought about doing so-until I saw that MySpace was bound to lose. Now I'm pushing the "We're all in this together" slogan. That's why-with all due apologies to Rodney King-I ask "Can Facebook friends and Myspace friends get along?"

And I answer "When it comes to Folks Against Fascism-Absolutely!"

;o)

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Peace
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 12:13 AM

I am humbled by your remark, Yorgos. Best wishes to you.

Irene

(I don't mind the name, but I ain't getting the operation to go with it.)

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: David el Gnomo
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 01:32 AM

The music for which I have a particular fondness is the traditional music of the British Isles with a preference for the folk music of England.

I agree entirely, Bryan, I have a particular fondness for English and Scottish Dance music in particular but would pose this question. When did it become English or Scottish and what makes it so? When I listen to some of the dance tunes are there distinct east European influences or did English music influence that of Romania or Hungary? Some of the tunes of the Scottish small pipes sound earily like those played by Bretons in France. Now we have influences from further east and west in pop, classical and folk so is what I am listening to really English anyway? I would give an overwhelming YES - Just as Chicken Tika Masala, French wines and, unfortunately, MacDonalds burgers are part of English cuisine.

Anyroads - back to the point. As club organisers we should not be just promoting music that we find interesting, but that that would interest a wider audience maybe? I don't think Greg is asking us to book acts just to cock a snook. But if we can help derail the BNP while booking acts representing ALL cultures of these isles then it is an added bonus:-)

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Crow Sister
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 03:20 AM

"Actually, I don't think it is. I don't think they set out to instruct people on what sort of music they should play or promote."

Fair enough Snail, rereading my posts, I was jumping the gun somewhat there. Possibly based on thoughts drawn from prior threads on surrounding issues, and the fact that JC has a foot in a few camps which, I would guess, ideally means that there doesn't have to be any either/or approaches. For my own part, I'd guess that all options of awareness raising and encouraging inclusivity are possibilities. At least I would hope so.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 04:04 AM

Personally, I don't think anyone should book anyhting except really good music.

Take this lot - they make really good music:

Dogan and the Deerhunters

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Azizi
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 04:15 AM

I don't think Greg is asking us to book acts just to cock a snook.
-David el Gnomo


"Cock a snook?"

Does that mean what I think it means?



Never mind. I don't really need to know.


But on second thought...??

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: MartinRyan
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 04:43 AM

Azizi

To cock a snook means to show derision. Origin debatable!

Regards

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 04:44 AM

plenty of people are joining, there were 6 members when i joined, now theres over 1000!

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Azizi
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 04:48 AM

On a serious note, it occurs to me that it's usually acceptable for people who know each other well to engage in light hearted play on words about the other person's non-standard name and other cultural things (such as some posts on this thread that Bruce [Peace] and David el Gnomo 's wrote that refer to George [Yorgos Papavgeris]'s name.*

But that same play on words would likely not be acceptable among people who don't know each other well.

I mention this because I think that one of the goals of the Folk Against Fascism website, Facebook page, and MySpace page would be to foster greater understanding among people of different backgrounds. Which doesn't mean that I think there should be a "social etiquette among people of different backgrounds" page. But some features that help populations of people know each other better may do a lot to reduce the pull of fascism.

* I mentioned Bruce's name "Peace" because people who might visit this thread from Internet search engines might not know who the heck "Bruce" is. And I'm presuming that George didn't take any offense to Bruce's and Dave's remarks because I (kinda) know them through their postings on Mudcat. t also seems to me that George's 10 Jun 09 - 10:00 PM shows that he accepted these play on words about his name in the spirit that they were given. However, the point I'm trying to make is that people who don't know each other can take offense and be offensive when joking about different personal names and about words from other languages.

Also I want to say that I think that Bruce's 11 Jun 09 - 12:13 AM comment and David el Gnomo 's 10 Jun 09 - 07:00 PM and any comment about George's name and the Greek word for "Peace" (Irene) were probably posted to add some lightheartedness to a very serious thread as was the intent of my 11 Jun 09 - 04:15 AM post).

I think these serious, emotionally gut wrenching discussions need a careful, sensitive light touch some times- or speaking for myself-I know that I need a careful, light touch sometime when I read these "heavy duty" threads. (Why did that phrasing about careful, sensitive touch cause my mind to go someplace else? Never mind that.)

:o)

Moving right along, thanks Bruce, and George, and Dave and any other play on word-er that i failed to mention.

Ms. Azizi

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Azizi
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 04:51 AM

Thanks, MartinRyan.

That meaning of "To cock a snook" is somewhat disappointing. But it is what it is.

;o)

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: TheSnail
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 05:17 AM

I have a particular fondness

Particuular, not exclusive. My own repertoire includes Irish, Scottish, French, Scandinavian and Italian tunes; because I like them.

This is an aesthetic/artistic statement, not a political one.

OK?

Thanks for the link Ruth. Dogan has played at the club several times in Too Many Strings and as a duo with Matt Quinn. He is on record as saying something like "I think British traditional music is wonderful and I want everybody to know about it. If it takes a Turk to tell them, so be it."

Bryan Creer

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Crow Sister
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 05:22 AM

The issues ultimately raised by this thread are going to be numerous, but in forging any approaches to begin to attempt to counter what has been ocurring regards the appropriation of British folk music and customs, I think it might be worthwhile determining what attracts groups like the BNP to British Folk. Some of these issues have come up on other threads, and it might be worthwhile taking a fresh more integrated look at some of those issues, in relation to this thread?

For example: One thing that strikes me from memory, was a story (I can't recall the poster) discussing a bunch of skinheads at a folk gathering rather enthusiastically singing songs containing the 'N' word.

Another thing that strikes me, is the possible parallels with Nazi appropriation of German folk music. One wonders to what extent current BNP tactics are knowingly echoing the Nazi example? Or is this simply another example of universal Nationalist political tactics?

And a further thing which immediately comes to mind, is of course the somewhat exclusively middle-England nature of attendees of folk clubs. Not a criticism of the British folk scene, merely a reference to prior discussions.

I'm sure there are other things which make British folk highly attractive as a tool for nationalist and fascist propaganda, I just wanted to throw open discussion about what they might be?

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 05:34 AM

I think the main thing is that they're national.


But it's interesting that whereas the National Front, as thugs and bully boys, targeted the national game (so much so that football has still not overcome the racist taint of 20-30 years ago) the new-look BNP, with their softly-softly approach, are targeting something that is much more middle class and Middle England: folk culture.

It's all about appropriating these things seen as primarily English, and making them a part of their very narrow and exclusive definition of identity.

I would hate to think of folk culture, 30 years from now, suffering under the taint of racism in the way that football still does, because we weren't vigilant enough until it was too late.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 05:38 AM

Before anyone has the eggs at the ready, I should probably qualify one of my statements above:

"targeting something that is much more middle class and Middle England: folk culture."

should read

"targeting something that is PERCEIVED as much more middle class and Middle England: folk culture."

Referring to morris, maypole, village greens etc.

And this is all about the perceptions of the wider public, not what we as folkies may or may not feel is true.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Folknacious
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 05:40 AM

Maybe it should have been called Folk Against Racism, but that sounds like a schism with Rock Against Racism which would have been silly. The logo they've got based on Woody's guitar ties in very nicely. I don't think it helps to nitpick about definitions.

About Facebook v. MySpace. MySpace is a terrific marketing tool, a free place for putting music and biogs etc into the public realm, the floor spots of the web. Facebook is much more used for social networking, and there are lots more people who don't have music to promote than do so naturally it will have more users.

Re discussion above about English music, I think it's summed up quite nicely by a quote on the FAF Wall which says "Remember the next time you go and dance to a polka played on a melodeon and hammered dulcimer that NONE of those things came from 'here' originally, they've just been naturalised a bit longer than most . ."

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: theleveller
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 05:59 AM

"Before anyone has the eggs at the ready, I should probably qualify one of my statements above: "

Phew, you had me reaching for the nearest chicken, there. LOL!

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 06:03 AM

"But it's interesting that whereas the National Front, as thugs and bully boys, targeted the national game (so much so that football has still not overcome the racist taint of 20-30 years ago) the new-look BNP, with their softly-softly approach, are targeting something that is much more middle class and Middle England: folk culture."

Interesting point.

Haven't yet decided whether this fact shows that they have been unsuccesful in the country's football gorunds so they are trying elsewhere, in which case it is an indicator that we should feel reassured by it, or whether it suggests genuine infiltration into the middle classes.

Lets remember that the number of BNP voters did not increase, so perhaps we can deduce that the footbal stadium campaign has been unsuccesful.

Alternatively, now that football stadia have become the preserve of the middle classes and the real fans watch their games in pubs cos they can't afford tickets, maybe the campaign has followed them into the pubs - and is just giving itself a soundtrack and inventing an new found identity with a new found air of respectability ...

... Great to see that when it matters, the overwhelming majority of Brits are disgusted at the idea of Griffin in office.

He won't last more than 1 term.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 06:06 AM

"Another thing that strikes me, is the possible parallels with Nazi appropriation of German folk music. One wonders to what extent current BNP tactics are knowingly echoing the Nazi example? Or is this simply another example of universal Nationalist political tactics?"

I find the BNP fascination with 'British culture' alarming because they are echoing nazi ideology in a way that even the National Front never did. The nazis believed that national culture was a product of genetic determination, and it was for this reason that they embraced German folklore. to them, it was pure and it was Aryan and, once cleansed of degenerate influences, it was both symbol and affirmation of Aryan superiority. The product of the master race, no less.

I think the BNP's assertion of British folklore (and various other symbols of 'Britishness') shows that they are thinking along similar lines. I think they are proposing a Britain purged of all alien influences. I think they are planning a programme of ethnic cleansing, the intensity of which has not been seen since the days of the holocaust.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 06:14 AM

Expanding this list outside of Britain, Folk singers sang songs during the civil rights movement in the USA.

It might be a good idea to include such a listing on the FaceBook/MySpace pages or at least on the upcoming Folk Against Fascism website.

What else can be added to this list?

Mikis Theodorakis (and a lot of other Greek musicians) opposing the Greek colonels

Victor Jara, Inti-Illimani and a whole bunch of other Chilean musicians opposing Pinochet

Zulfu Livaneli, Selda Bagcan, Melike Demirag and a whole bunch of other Turkish folkies opposing fascism around the time of the 1980 coup

You'd be hard put to find a country with a significant fascist movement that didn't have folk musicians in the front line fighting it.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Good Soldier Schweik
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 06:22 AM

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Folknacious - PM
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 05:40 AM

Maybe it should have been called Folk Against Racism, but that sounds like a schism with Rock Against Racism which would have been silly. The logo they've got based on Woody's guitar ties in very nicely. I don't think it helps to nitpick about definitions.

About Facebook v. MySpace. MySpace is a terrific marketing tool, a free place for putting music and biogs etc into the public realm, the floor spots of the web. Facebook is much more used for social networking, and there are lots more people who don't have music to promote than do so naturally it will have more users.

Re discussion above about English music, I think it's summed up quite nicely by a quote on the FAF Wall which says "Remember the next time you go and dance to a polka played on a melodeon and hammered dulcimer that NONE of those things came from 'here' originally, they've just been naturalised a bit longer than most . ."
I agree with this sentiment,however it is not accurate,the English concertina is English,The Hornpipe,Reel and Jig,are generally considered to be from these islands[scotland ,england ireland wales]polkas originated in middle europe[butIrish polkas have evolved to something different.]
yes ,correct about Polkas and mazurkas,but not other dances.
still the most important thing is not to be concerned about origins ,but to enjoy the dancing.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 06:56 AM

I just looked at Anahata's site, that link page is just right.

I'd add something very similar to mine, but a question. My involvement is mostly with Scottish music, and I haven't seen any sign of the BNP trying to exploit that. (Near-fascist Scottish organizations like Siol nan Gaidheal have been trying for years and got nowhere in particular - but the BNP would have to take them on before trying to move in on the Scottish folk scene). Anyone know what they're doing up here?

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Azizi
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 07:36 AM

>i>I think it might be worthwhile determining what attracts groups like the BNP to British Folk. Some of these issues have come up on other threads, and it might be worthwhile taking a fresh more integrated look at some of those issues, in relation to this thread?
-Crow Sister, 11 Jun 09 - 05:22 AM

I find your comments to be very interesting, Crow Sister and believe that it is important to know what attracts the BNP to folk. And it seems to me that a corollary question is "Should every thing that is considered to be traditional British culture or which has been grafted onto traditional British culture be supported and efforts made to retain those things? I'm specifically talking about the songs with the "N" word (which certainly wouldn't be publicly sung nowadays in my country, the USA)? But I'm certain that there are other perhaps more controversial customs that could (should?) also be considered in that category of indices of traditional British culture that could be reviewed in this regard.

**

I aslo find romany man's 10 Jun 09 - 07:47 PM entire post interesting. But in particular I'd like to to focus on this point he raised "what next folk against commies, or against rock and roll , im not being flipant but what will folk against anything achieve if the general populace in general is against fascism..."

(I'm wondering if he meant) "im not being flipant but what will folk against anything achieve if the general populace in general is against fascism)

But the point that I want to make is that it seems to me that Folk Against Fascism should be clear on and should clearly articulate what it (we) are in favor of. I think our efforts would be weakened if we are only seen as being against something-and that "something" is a political system that a lot of "folks" (with "folk" here meaning people) can't easily define. Furthermore, it seems to me that we are missing a wider audience and membership/supporters if the "folk" in "Folk Against Fascism" is only narrowly defined as "folk musicians and folk vocalists and folk dancers (such as morris dancers)".

To echo what Peace said in one of his posts to this thread, I'm not folk musicians and folk vocalists and folk dancers (such as morris dancers). But I am a folk (a person). I understand that FaF focuses on Britain and the British hate group, the BNP. But I'd like to think that people from outside of Britain with our "own" hate groups and hate crimes have some role in the FaF-and maybe we are sometimes the gadfly that pushes you to widen your focus and consider the wider world of racism/hate/fascism.

I guess I should have said that "maybe my role is a gadfly". But gadflies can be lovable sometime.

:o)

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 07:38 AM

Ruth/lox,
It is quite true that in the seventies the NF sought to recruit members from football supporters since "they would welcome robust young men into their ranks". However it must be stressed that over the ensuing years the football clubs themselves have worked very hard to combat the stigma, especially the violence and racism, which attached its self to the game.Most clubs that I know of have a definite policy against racisim(Kick Out Racism) and any form of racist chanting is punishable by expulsion from the ground and membership revoked. A lot of clubs openly declare this on their tickets.
"Alternatively, now that football stadia have become the preserve of the middle classes and the real fans watch their games in pubs cos they can't afford tickets". I saw my team, Nottingham Forest, on television twice last season so I would suggest that since football is not the sole property of the big four Premiership sides that the real fans still go to the grounds (and if being middle class means being continually on the bones of ones arse then that must be my status; I'll remember that when I clock in at the factory in the morning)
It was very encouraging to see the anti - BNP leaflets being haded out at our last home match v Southampton.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Folkiedave
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 08:14 AM

Haven't yet decided whether this fact shows that they have been unsuccesful in the country's football gorunds so they are trying elsewhere, in which case it is an indicator that we should feel reassured by it, or whether it suggests genuine infiltration into the middle classes.

As a season ticket holder at Sheffield's finest football club (I refer to United of course) I am very aware of the efforts my club has made to discourage racism (especially chanting) and it is now totally unaceptable at Bramall Lane to make references to the colour of a player's skin.

So we don't hear it. This didn't arise by accident but by extremely hard work by FURD (Football Unites, Racism Divides). http://www.furd.org/ will show you some of their work.

It has been a very successful organisation.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: treewind
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 08:26 AM

Azizi:
Yes, of course we're all against fascism, but the reason why the folk music community in particular is upset is because the BNP have been exploiting British Folk music (in particular its "Britishness") as an emblem of nationalism and selling compilations of their recordings to raise funds. Now folk musicians and singers are in danger of being tarred with the same racist brush, so it is very much a fight "against" the BNP because we are under attack. Imagine if you were a singer (maybe you are) and you found your music was being sold to raise funds for a racist organisation...

As for "Folk against Fascism" vs. "Folk Against Racism", it's a more alliterative and hence memorable name, and it is relevant to the BNP. For me it's also a plus point that it potentially covers some of the invasions of personal privacy and freedom perpetrated by the existing government, with its talk of ID cards and having all our internet activity monitored.

Perhaps we could have called it "folk for freedom" but I don't think anyone would take any notice if we did...

Anahata

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Banjiman
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 08:30 AM

The whole Kick Racism Out (of football) has been succesful in league football. I can confirm that racist chants etc are also now never heard at Sincil Bank (Lincoln City).

I haven't been to an England game for more than 10 years but the last one I was at was scary. Lots of anti-Irish chants.

At Lincoln, the 3 of us who turn up are now impeccably behaved. (I always was, it was the other 2). Thought I better make this joke before someone else did.



I think the issues were different for football in that it was kicking out people/ behaviours who had already infiltrated the game...... I don't perceive that the BNP has a strong grip of Folk Music yet. It's therefore looking at how to prevent it (or at least put out the ember before the fire catches) rather than kick it out.

Might be something we can learn from the football experience though.

Paul

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Good Soldier Schweik
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 08:51 AM

Fascism ,is[imo] easily defined,it involves IN PRACTICAL TERMS [as it has been practised,by Mussolini and Hitler] the persecution of people because of their race colour and creed,so one of its principles as it has been practised is racism.
yes ,this includes Mussolini.
Mussolini in his earlier years appeared not be anti semitic,but in his later years changed his policy,and for whatever reasons used racism to maintain himself in power.
however, Folk against Racism,might have been a better title,just in case some pedant,comes along and argues that Franco[Fascist]or Duffy[Blueshirt] was not racist.
However the situation is further complicated,Franco was supported by other fascist /nazis states.,as he accepted their support,does it not follow that he accepted their racist attitudes?
anyway well done,to all the people who have helped set up folk against fascism.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Azizi
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 08:52 AM

Correction-
In my 11 Jun 09 - 07:36 AM post I wondered if romany man meant " "im not being flipant but what will folk against anything achieve if the general populace in general is not against fascism".

**

Also, I wasn't suggesting that the "Folk Against Fascism" name be "Folk Against Racism". My point was (is) that the group should be clear what we are for. I would assume that some things are core, but that every FaF friend (member) may not agree with other things that are part of British traditional folk culture that other friends (members) list that they are in favor of.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Folknacious
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 09:14 AM

Remember the next time you go and dance to a polka played on a melodeon and hammered dulcimer that NONE of those things came from 'here' originally

was answered by

the English concertina is English,The Hornpipe,Reel and Jig,are generally considered to be from these islands

Well yes, but that's a complete non sequitur! Your point is?

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: MartinRyan
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 09:16 AM

"fascism" is now little more than a generalised term of abuse. It's original sense was essentially right-wing, ultra-nationalist, corporatist, authoritarian governance. Unsurprisingly, racism was often part of the package, in practice. (It's not stretching things too much to regard Franco's attitude to the Catalans as essentially racist, BTW). On the other hand, authoritarian left-wing states are just as capable of being racist (complete your own list...). So let's not confuse the two.

Regards

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Crow Sister
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 09:40 AM

For myself, I think the term is appropriate, as the issues implied go beyond racism alone.

And this from Wiki makes the direct relationship between the BNP & fascism more clear: "The current use of the name British National Party is its fourth appearance in British politics. The original BNP emerged during World War II when a handful of former members of the British Union of Fascists took on the name."

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Good Soldier Schweik
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 09:44 AM

my point is:that most ,countrydances/ceilidhs that people dance to in England ,contain all these dances and some of them are from the England Ireland Scotland Wales .
secondly,that the origins of the dances should not be important when dancing,people, should be dancing for pleasure.
that is why I dont care a toss, when I am dancing a polka [that it comes from middle europe].
but of course it might concern BNP MEMBERS ,presumably they think its ok to dance hornpipes but not polkas,how ridiculous.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Stringsinger
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 10:11 AM

In a Venn Diagram, Fascism and racism can intersect but not always.

Any authoritarian governance is probably associated with some form of racism.
It doesn't matter what you label it.

As I understand the BNP, it is an authoritarian "my way or the highway" group and
must as a result maintain a certain prejudice and xenophobia.

Fascism is alive and well here in the US. It is not a stated official policy of the government but corporate takeover of our political system is evident. For this reason, ample criticism
has to be expressed by Americans who take our Bill of Rights and Constitution seriously.
We have to deplore any group that favors a fascistic point of view including the BNP.
They should not be morally defended in any way.

Free speech is their right as long as it doesn't cross the line. My experience with fascistic right-wing groups is that they invariably cross the line into violence. At this point as far as I'm concerned, this abrogates their right to free speech.

Frank

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 10:28 AM

If you want to see what a British fascist looked like go to "google images" and type in the name of the founding leader of the British National Party,John Tyndall. You can see him there dressed in full nazi uniform posing in front of a swastika flag while a photograph of Adolph Hitler looks down from above.

His successor ,Nick Griffin,can also be seen on google images.He is there in front of a National Front banner wearing his white power Tshirt.He looks more porky these days.

When a BNP electioneering squad were out in force in my home town a few weeks ago they were all dressed up in their shiny suits.They really didn't like it when photocopies of Tyndall in his nazi getup were produced. After being " megaphoned " for an hour by anti fascists they obviously sent for reinforcements because a group of boneheads came waddling down the street.One was covered in enormous swastika tattoos   including one on top of his shaven head. Scary! He was obviously not used in any of the BNP publicity material.

Its not easy but they do have to confronted about their nazi past and their nazi present.
ifor

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 11:12 AM

Been thinking about this.....

""given some of the people already supporting this, we're not talking pie-in-the-sky - something exciting is going to happen"

I'll wait and see how far some people are willing to go with this issue.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Miskin Man
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 11:46 AM

I have always considered myself "non political" I don't "do" politics, but by God I care about my fellow man. The whole idea of the BNP appalls me and in fact scares me. I particularly dislike the idea of appropriating the music I love and have worked hard for all my adult life. This is why I joined FAF, triggered by the wayward thinking of a previous friend.
I hope we get a coherent mission statement organised for the website. Fo my pen'orth it's deeper than Racism and probably deeper than the BNP although they must be the main target for the immediate future.
Good luck to FAF and all who Faff around within.

Andy

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: GUEST,Neil D
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 11:56 AM

Speaking of crossing the line into violence, a long-time racist anti-semite attacked the National Holocaust Museum in Washington D.C. yesterday killing a security guard before being shot himself. Security guards at that museum are trained to be always on high alert because it is one of the most threatened institutions in America, a sad fact indeed. Otherwise he would have killed many more innocents. The MSNBC story reports that this man was a frequent attendee of American Friends of the British National Party rallies.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: theleveller
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 12:16 PM

"I'll wait and see how far some people are willing to go with this issue. "

Wait before you do what? Support it? Oppose it? Sitting on the fence can be a pain in the arse :)

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 12:32 PM

"Wait before you do what? Support it? Oppose it? Sitting on the fence can be a pain in the arse"

that's the wonderful thing about democracy, you do what you want

Some people are more a pain in the arse than sitting on the fence is.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Crow Sister
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 12:37 PM

Rifleman, is there anything in particular, which makes you feel that you wish to stand back? I think like me, TheLeveller simply found your statement confusing. I didn't understand whatever point it was that you were making, or what exactly you'd been thinking about.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Anne Lister
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 03:59 PM

Catching up, belatedly as ever ...I don't see any kind of "either/or" about people and their preferences for music from different cultures and their own. However, as this thread is concerned with the attack on "British" folk music (perhaps this should be "English") via the attentions of the BNP, and as English folk music and dance have been under various forms of attack by the media over more years than I want to think about (mostly humour, mostly harmless, admittedly, but not helpful), and as it is often more difficult to attract grant funding for projects to do with English folk culture than for music and dance from other cultural backgrounds ... in short, as in this context English folk music is very much the minority interest and one of the few places it happens is in folk clubs my point was that I don't want accusations of nationalism, fascism, jingoism and racism to attach to folk clubs that don't book other varieties of world music as a result of their booking policy.

The cultural diversity question, applied to modern Britain, is indeed complex and full of contradictory potholes, to mix my metaphors and images. All I'm saying is that everyone is entitled to be proud of their own heritage, and that includes English folk enthusiasts and performers. No "either/or" involved. And when it comes to the old chestnut about how we're all essentially mixed ethnicities anyway over here - actually, not necessarily. In my family history the biggest mix was between Yorkshire and Oxfordshire, with a sprinkling of Devon, back at least as far as 1700. And most of them, I'm very proud to say, agricultural labourers or aspiring white collar workers rather than titled aristocrats.

And none of this makes me a white supremacist, a racist or a follower of the BNP. I don't think I'm better than anyone else, but I do insist that my cultural heritage is equal to anyone else's. I am rather tired of feeling apologetic about being English - and unable to make a statement about this without appearing to be a moronic nationalist.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: theleveller
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 04:10 PM

"Some people are more a pain in the arse than sitting on the fence is."

Well, that's something we agree on.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 04:29 PM

"Rifleman, is there anything in particular, which makes you feel that you wish to stand back?"

"Some people are more a pain in the arse than sitting on the fence is."
I'm niot actually sitting on the fence, but I do believe I'll do things my way in my time.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Folknacious
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 04:45 PM

Anne:

ENGLAND, HALF-ENGLISH

Words & Music : Billy Bragg

My mother was half-English
And I'm half-English too
I'm a great big bundle of culture
Tied up in the red, white and blue
I'm a fine example of your Essex Man
And I'm well familiar with the Hindustan
'Cos my neighbours are half-English
And I'm half-English too

My breakfast was half-English
And so am I you know
I had a plate of Marmite soldiers
Washed down with a cappuccino
And I have a veggie curry about once a week
The next day I fry it up as 'Bubble 'N' Squeak'
'Cos my appetite's half-English
And I'm half-English too

Dance with me
To this very English melody
From Morris dancing to Morrissey
All that stuff came from across the sea

Britannia, she's half-English
She speaks Latin at home
St. George was born in the Lebanon
How he got here I don't know
And those three lions on your shirt
They never sprang from England's dirt
Them lion's are half-English
And I'm half-English too

Le-li Umma le-li-ya
le-li Umma le-li-ya
Le-li Umma le-li-ya
bledi g'desh akh! le-li-ya

Oh my country
Oh my country
Oh my country
What a beautiful country you are

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Dorothy Parshall
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 06:10 PM

Folk = Volk = people = ALL people regardless of whether we are "folk musicians" or what evers. "Folk" does not either denote nor connote someone wrapped up in the "folk scene." The music of the folk (people) of any part of the world has always included protest music, music telling about life as it is/was. Was that not the original purpose? Wandering minstrels carrying the news from hamlet to hamlet? And now - the internet carries the message around the world in seconds!!

I see the Brits, or is it just the English, sticking closely to only music/dance that is "traditional". I see the US and Canadian folk sorts, festivals, what have you, sticking to "trad" music and contemporary "folk" and if any dancing at all - square, contra, or Morris.

Would it be too broadening for the dance of the folk of other lands to be included? I love our folk music and musicians, prefer the more contemporary to the hard-core trad. But I live to dance and my preferred dance is the dances of the people - international folk dance - Greek, Serbian, etc. I feel in touch with those who have danced these for hundreds of years, with their music and their spirit.

Perhaps broadening our own horizons would help us, and others, to broaden theirs? Lest our world be defined by the perimeter of our halo? (No offense meant to anyone.)

In any case, it is good to see folks standing up to be counted. Let us not sit down until we have rocked the boat.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Good Soldier Schweik
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 06:26 PM

a very good post from Ann Lister.
it is important that we do not allow english folk music to be hijacked by the BNP.
In my opinion the answer is for folk club organisers to carry on with exactly the booking policies,that they feel is right for their club.
some folk clubs promote English traditional music,some folkclubs promote contemporary songwriters ,some clubs promote both,some clubs promote blues.,long may that continue.
English,Scottish , Welsh, Irish folk music needs to be promoted.,as does other national folk music.
if a promoter wishes to run a club that is exclusively folk or roots music from another country,that is good.
or if he /she wishes to start integrating folk music from other areas in to the musical programme,that is his/her choice.,the organiser is taking a gamble,and might be well advised to introduce,these changes gradually,or to seek the opinions of club regulars first,alternatively there might be a lot of new faces,who wish to hear a more international flavour of music.
If he/ she does not want to do this it does not make the organiser a racist.,any more than would be the case,if it was an Indian person running an exclusively Indian folk music club in England ,India or anywhere else.
But The reason for running a Folk/Roots club,should be,because the organiser enjoys the music and wishes to promote it.
imo ,it seems incorrect for organisers to suddenly change their booking policies because of a fear that English folk music is being hijacked by the BNP,or because they think it might be a useful way of countering the BNP.
the best way[imo] to counter the BNP is to defeat their arguments intellectually ,MBS GEORGE has not yet replied to the many posts,which might suggest that she knows that her points of view would be made to look exactly what they are,intellectually bankrupt.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Miskin Man
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 06:35 PM

A guy on Question time (BBC1 UK) just now admitted to voting BNP. When questioned why he replied from a written list with all the usual BNP lines. When pushed he had to admit it was to "put two fingers up to the three main parties".

I do believe that is why they got in, thankfully not because people believe in their aims. This is not a call to apathy but rather the reverse, we should be engaging the BNP voters in proper dialogue and expose the truth of the BNP.

FAF Andy

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: David el Gnomo
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 06:40 PM

I am slow on the uptake about political issues at times as can be demonstrated in various threads on the 'cat but I do eventualy cotton on:-)

The more I think about this issue the more important I realise it is. If we let the BNP have their way we will loose a lot of what we take for granted. Imagine for one minute that we allow them to use Folk music and ritual dance in the way they want we will get the situation that the Folk club and Morris team will move from the slightly comedic butt of media jokes to an art form associated with this hateful organisation. Anyone involved will become tarred with the same brush and I, for one, will not sit back and let that happen.

I urge anyone and everyone involved in traditional English music and dance to ensure that we fight the incidious invasion of our culture. If that means actively going onto the streets and making sure that everyone, from all cultures represented in the UK, are not only welcome in but can make a real difference to our traditions then that is what we should be doing.

I'm on a mission...

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: David el Gnomo
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 06:51 PM

I cross posted with Dick -

some folk clubs promote English traditional music

Yes, we do indeed. But maybe we should be widening the definition of traditional English music? England has been multi-national for hundreds of years and the traditions that immigrants brought with them are now as much a part of traditional English life as Morris dance! Like I said earlier, Chicken Tikka Masalla and Balti are now part of traditional English food. Surely we can do the same with music.

Pop music has lots of examples of being influenced by music from, for instance, the Beatles' Maharisi Yogi days to Sting's Arabian themed Desert Rain. There must be plenty of folk musicians out there doing the same.

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Miskin Man
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 07:35 PM

I for one don't intend to be swayed by the BNP to change my preference for Britsh music. Luckily I think we have already established that that does not make me a racist.

FAF Andy

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: TheSnail
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 08:42 PM

Thanks to Anne Lister and Captain Birdseye. Spot on. Saved me a lot of typing.

There are a wide variety of folk clubs and folk dance organisations. We don't all have to do it all.

Bryan Creer

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Ian Fyvie
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 10:12 PM

"I do believe that is why they got in, thankfully not because people believe in their aims." (Miskin Man)

On BBC TV tonight I think it was Dianne Abbot MP who said the BNP got in through large numbers of working class voters being disillusioned with New Labour (where the New Labour's former middle class voters have gone to the Greens).

As Miskin Man mentions, it's not generally that these working class voters are racist. Quite apart from the "two fingers to the three main parties" factor, it is that New Labour has left a vacuum in areas of huge working class concerns such as privatisation, feeding the Bankers instead of saving manufacturing jobs - things that Old (Peoples') Labour would have (one would hope) adressed.

Where the Red and Green Left hasn't beeen active, thousands are only hearing one party saying what they want to hear on those traditional Labour issues.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: jeddy
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 10:22 PM

IAN, you are quite right when you say there is a gap in the market, so to speak, that is just what they want the brits to think . that the BNP are for the ordiary people, if i didn't know them better i might have been persuaded, i know the truth about them and MOST of their policies still SOUND good, it is no wonder then that the less inclined are completely taken in.

as for what folk clubs should do about this.....abSOLUTELY NOTHING.. keep doing what you are doing, you know what your' punters like and when they want something abit different,becuase they tell you and discuss it.
we should not let the threat of the BNP change how and why we do the things we love.

take care all

i can't wait to get my FaF t shirt and wear it with pride x x

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Dorothy Parshall
Date: 11 Jun 09 - 11:54 PM

DeG: "Pop music has lots of examples of being influenced by music from, for instance, the Beatles' Maharisi Yogi days to Sting's Arabian themed Desert Rain. There must be plenty of folk musicians out there doing the same."

OF course. And has been for centuries. The flamenco evolved from the whirling dervish. I see the steps of all contemporary dances in ancient folk dances. Musicians are certainly affected by the music around them. Just a different sort of evolution. To be aware is to begin to understand our connectedness. We do not need to lose by it. We gain with awareness and still can maintain the integrity of the traditional - all the better by our awareness. Look at very old trad music and see if there is not an influence from the Crusades in there at times???

The fascists cannot take anything from us unless we allow it, give up our power, fail in our vigilance.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Azizi
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 01:05 AM

I am reposting this comment from a current thread here because I believe it is pertinent this discussion:

Subject: RE: 11 Hausa songs banned in Kano, Nigeria
From: Azizi - PM
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 01:01 AM

If you do not care for the loss of freedom that other creative people are experiences, you should at least realize that you are laughing and sneering at information such at this at your on peril. What is occurring in this Islamic province of the multi-religious nation of Nigeria, is a sign of what could occur in other nations if people are not pro-active and vigilant. For instance, were a fascist government headed by the BNP ever to achieve real power in Britain or other parts of the United Kingdom, they would target song composers, musicians, film makers, vocalists, actors and other creative people just as is now occurring in that one particular area of Nigeria.

This excerpt of that 2008 "Nigerian Writers, Film-makers Defy Censors"
article that Guest Felipa alerted us to should serve as a warning of things to come:

"Kano State government officials have burned books they say promote immorality...

The imprisonment clause has been put into effect several times. Besides Adam Zango, who was imprisoned in September 2007, pioneering Hausa director and former Kano State gubernatorial candidate Hamisu Lamido Iyan Tama was jailed after copies of his film Tsintsiya were impounded from a video shop in Kano in May 2008. He was accused of not registering his company Iyan Tama Multimedia with the censorship board.

(A court case reveals that the company had, in fact, registered and paid the required fees.) Ironically, the director was arrested the day of his return from the Zuma Film Festival in Abuja where Tsintsiya had won an award for Best Film on Social Issue.

The new censorship regime has had the effect of suppressing Hausa filmmaking in Kano, Northern Nigeria's largest city. The exact size of the industry is hard to determine, but a 2002 study by the national censors board counted 133 Hausa films produced between January and August of that year, making the Hausa film industry second in size only to Yoruba.

Although filmmakers are still doing post-production in Kano, locations have been moved to neighboring states, the majority now being shot in neighbouring Kaduna State. Filmmakers bypass the Kano State Censors Board by marking "Not for sale in Kano" on their films and selling them in other states.

Following the exodus of the Hausa film-making scene from Kano State, Malam Rabo, the director general of the censors board, turned his attention to the writers in the state...

The suppression of creativity in Nigeria is hardly a new phenomenon. Writers have been imprisoned and even executed like novelist and activist Ken Saro-Wiwa. However, the popular imagination combined with the subversive possibilities of such new technologies point to the impossibility of the task undertaken by the Censorship Board.

Filmmakers travel out of state to film and bring the digital tapes back in to edit, taking them back out of state to market. Writers, kept from publishing articles in local newspapers, repeat sentiments on blogs and pass digital photos of correspondence with the censors via email listserves.

Bus drivers plaster the windows of their ramshackle vehicles with stickers of "porn-star" Hiyana. Young people cite watching movies as inspiration for using their phones to record conversations with corrupt lecturers and authority figures who they then expose as hypocrites.

In the Clarendon lectures given at Oxford University in 1996, formerly imprisoned Kenyan novelist Ngugi wa Thiong'o theorised that whereas the state seeks to silence alternate stories, "art tries to restore voices to the land. It tries to give voice back to the silenced". In Northern Nigeria , despite state-sponsored bans, book burnings, and imprisonments, it is becoming difficult to silence those voices in the first place."

http://ipsnews.net/africa/nota.asp?idnews=43857


-snip-

We Mudcatters should be standing in solidarity with the creative people in that Northern province of Nigeria instead of making stupid jokes about them. Isn't that what movements such as Folk Against Fascism is all about? Or is the concern about creativity being potentially stifled and actually stifled only there when it comes to White people?

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Azizi
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 01:13 AM

Correction to my first sentence of that repost:

"If you do not care for the loss of freedom that other creative people are experiencing, you should at least realize that you are laughing and sneering at information such at this at your own peril."

**

Here is an additional excerpt from that article about censorship in the Islamic province of in the northern part of Nigeria, West Africa:


"The censors board in Nigeria's northern Kano State was instituted in 2001 after the controversial implementation of Islamic shari'a law in Kano State. Film-making was at first banned outright, but the filmmakers' association of Northern Nigeria (MOPPAN) suggested a "review" board as a compromise measure, which allowed the industry to continue, though with certain restrictions on language, dress and "close dancing between men and women." (Five of the ten laws were specifically related to women's clothing or interaction with men.)...

he imprisonment clause has been put into effect several times. Besides Adam Zango, who was imprisoned in September 2007, pioneering Hausa director and former Kano State gubernatorial candidate Hamisu Lamido Iyan Tama was jailed after copies of his film Tsintsiya were impounded from a video shop in Kano in May 2008. He was accused of not registering his company Iyan Tama Multimedia with the censorship board.

(A court case reveals that the company had, in fact, registered and paid the required fees.) Ironically, the director was arrested the day of his return from the Zuma Film Festival in Abuja where Tsintsiya had won an award for Best Film on Social Issue. "

-snip-

Click http://ipsnews.net/africa/nota.asp?idnews=43857
to read more about what is now happening in Northern Nigeria and what could happen to creative people in my nation and your own nation if people aren't vigilant and pro-active.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Azizi
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 01:51 AM

I meant to post a hyperlink to that Mudcat thread that Guest Felipa started to alert us to the oppression of creativity that is occurring in one province of Nigeria. Here's that link:

thread.cfm?threadid=121513&messages=7 "11 Hausa songs banned in Kano, Nigeria"

**

At this time, the only other posting besides Felipa's and mine is a comment that "jokes" about Nigerian scam. I sincerely hope that other 'Catters and Mudcat guests will visit that thread and demonstrate your support for the songwriters, musicians, authors, film makers, actors, and other creative people who are being oppressed in that particular part of Nigeria.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 02:46 AM

A slight aside.

Heard on Beeb R4 this morning. The most common surname in Great Britain is 1/4 of a million strong and it is the name Patel.

I think this perfect.

I have invited Britain born Asian friend/former colleague to attend folk club with me, but folk music is not her cup of tea. Invited Turkish friend but she is young and prefers to spend her evenings playing snooker or riding about on motor bike with her partner.

In fact I have invited all close colleagues and friends and only one has attended once. The general attitude is not interested. So we need to address the young.

Having said that I wonder how we can first meet and then invite BME groups to engage in folk music and dance of Great Britain? I think one way would be through school fetes. If local Morris teams, ceileidgh clubs and folk musicians and singers would just approach the parent associations, get and invite, attend, do demos and provide recruitment literature and really welcome all.... oh dear....

Sigh.. I am dreaming again.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 03:20 AM

"Isn't that what movements such as Folk Against Fascism is all about? Or is the concern about creativity being potentially stifled and actually stifled only there when it comes to White people??"

Standing in solidarity with other groups is very important, Azizi. But as I've explained previously, Folk Against Fascism has a very specific brief, and if we're not careful, the group could become diverted from that brief by trying to address too many issues on too large a scale.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 04:51 AM

Pne of the things folk against facism is about is ownership of folk and ensuring that it does not ecome a right wing propagandist tool.

Yes, we should be proud of our tradtions and open let all people irrespective of nationality and ethnicity share in the pleasure the provide.

At the same time our traditions should sit comfortably alongside other traditions such as Diwali and Eid and Carnival (even if we get the date wrong in Notting Hill). I was invited to attend a party to celebrate Eid once and fekt honoured to receive the invitation.

Lets promote lots of folk events, roots events, other cultural events to celebrate how it is the richness of diverse cultures makes Britain great, and welcome all people to enjoy and participate.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Miskin Man
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 04:59 AM

Ruth: I agree of course we must stick to our important,although at the moment a bit vague brief.
BUT, Azizi has a very valid reason to broaden the information gathering. This action in Pakistan is exactly what we are guarding against. Whilst we should not as a body actively engage ourselves in their problems it serves as a warning to us.
As an individual I shall be keeping an eye on the Pkistan problem and doing whatever small thing I can, but as an individual at the moment.
Thanks Azizi for your input, it has opened my eyes several times.

FAF Andy

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: IanC
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 05:00 AM

I think they said Patel is AMONG the most common surnames. There are 729862 Smiths at the last count. Patel comes 45th with 119855.

:-)

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Miskin Man
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 05:25 AM

I expect many will have seen this already, bu links are cheap enough!!
It says everything really.

FAF Andy

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: theleveller
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 05:26 AM

"At the same time our traditions should sit comfortably alongside other traditions such as Diwali and Eid and Carnival "

This diversity is actively promoted in schools. My daughter goes to a CofE Primary school (it's the only primary school in the area)and alongside our traditional festivals, they learn all about those of other cultures.

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Miskin Man
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 05:31 AM

Third try.

All together now !!

Subject: RE: Folk Against Fascism
From: Folknacious
Date: 12 Jun 09 - 06:00 AM

We don't all have to do it all.

No, of course we don't. But we have to be very careful how we explain why. If a club says it specialises in folk and traditional mus