'Juniper, Gentian, and Rosemary'

Subject: 'Juniper, Gentian, and Rosemary'
From:
Date: 29 Jul 99 - 03:26 PM

This is the title of a recent book by Pamela Dean. Cover blurb says it's based on a traditional ballad, but unlike her novel TAM LIN (highly recommended!), it doesn't include the text of the ballad or any kind of explanatory foreword or afterword. Does anyone know what ballad this might be? I haven't read far enough into the novel to find out what the plot is actually about (the supernatural element hasn't entered the story yet, although there is a distinct oddness about the new house that "suddenly sprang up," as it were, next door). I can't find anything in the database using either "juniper" or "gentian" as keyword.

Subject: RE: 'Juniper, Gentian, and Rosemary'
From: katlaughing
Date: 29 Jul 99 - 03:57 PM

According to a website I found for the book and author you mentioned, it is absed on Child Ballad No. 1, which is called Riddles Widely Expounded, but for the life of me, I cannot find that Child Ballad at any of the sites I know of.

If someone doesn't wander in here and know it, you might want to start a new thread with the title of the ballad and/ Child Ballad No. 1, in the title of the thread.

I'll keep looking, too.

katlaughing

Subject: RE: 'Juniper, Gentian, and Rosemary'
From: katlaughing
Date: 29 Jul 99 - 04:00 PM

Sorry, the title is Riddles Wisely Expounded.

kat

Subject: RE: 'Juniper, Gentian, and Rosemary'
From: MMario
Date: 29 Jul 99 - 04:02 PM

KatL - fershame! Have you been in the Tavern a wee bit too much lately?

Search the DT using #1;

multiple versions derived from Child #1

AND I do believe there was a thread about this a while back.

MMario

Subject: RE: 'Juniper, Gentian, and Rosemary'
From: MMario
Date: 29 Jul 99 - 04:08 PM

One of the versions is "Jennifer Gentle"

I have seen confusion before between Jennifer/Geniver/Juniper.

gentle=gentain?

Rose Marie becomes Rosemary?

MMario

Subject: RE: 'Juniper, Gentian, and Rosemary'
From: katlaughing
Date: 29 Jul 99 - 04:10 PM

MMario, just found it. I didn't use the #1 and it didn't come up, for me, under just CHild Ballads. Go figure!

Anyhow, there are two versions of Riddles Wisely Expounded in the database and it didn't come up under that name, either! Unless it was my typing???**BG** Either that of the fumes from the Tavern are doing me in; I've been teetotalling for a day or two!

Oh and I did do a forum search but none of the threads which came up mentioned this one.

Just type in Child #1 and go to the 6) and 7) versions.

There, MMario, see, I am purrfectly shober....uh, zzzzoburr, oh, well, ya know what I mean!

katlaughing@herself

Subject: Lyr Add: JENNIFER, GENTLE, AND ROSEMARIE^^
From: Art Thieme
Date: 29 Jul 99 - 10:01 PM

from Bertrand Bronson---__The Singing Tradition of Child's Popular Ballads__---1975

There were 3 sisters fair and bright,
Jennifer gentle and Rosemarie,
And they 3 loved one valiant knight,
As the dew flies over the mulberry tree.

The eldest sister let him in,
And barred the door with a silver pin.

The second sister made his bed,
And placed soft pillows under his head.

The youngest sister fair and bright,
Was resolved to wed with this valient knight.

And if you can answer questions 3,
Then fair maid, I will marry thee.

What is louder than a horn,
And what is sharper than a thorn.

Thunder is louder than a horn,
And hunger is sharper than a thorn.

What is broader than the way,
And what is deeper than the sea.

Love...
Hell...

.......................................
And now fair maid I will marry thee.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: 'Juniper, Gentian, and Rosemary'
From: Art Thieme
Date: 29 Jul 99 - 10:04 PM

In my mind I can almost hear Ed Tricket singing lead on this ballad with Gordon Bok and Anne Mayo Muir. It's on Folk Legacy.

Art

Subject: RE: 'Juniper, Gentian, and Rosemary'
From: MMario
Date: 30 Jul 99 - 09:09 AM

With most humble apologies to the feline-fem; I did a forum search as well and couldn't raise anything, though I am SURE I remember seeing it discussed. It could have been somewhere else though.....

Actually, there are THREE versions of riddles wisely expounded in the database, and they will come up if you search on RIDDLE....

sometimes I just don't understand computers. But that's what keeps me employed, so I shouldn't complain.

MMario

Subject: RE: 'Juniper, Gentian, and Rosemary'
From:
Date: 30 Jul 99 - 03:12 PM

Thanks for satisfying my curiosity by posting the words of the ballad. It's clear how some of it relates directly to the plot of Pamela Dean's novel. ALthough the middle sister (Gentian) is the protagonist, it is indeed the eldest (Juniper, in the novel) who "lets him in." The boy next door is clearly non-ordinary in some way, probably supernatural, and, one suspects, dangerous. How closely the ending will relate to the riddle ballad, I don't know, but I'm almost there. Readers' opinions of this book on Amazon vary widely; some loved it, others thought it was far below Dean's other work in quality. I stand with those who find it enthralling. I enjoy her portrayal of gifted, literate young people and find it as fascinating here as I did in her TAM LIN. (One of the commentators said the characters reminded him/her of those in "a bad Madeleine L'Engle novel," a clear sign that I can discount this person's opinion. As far as I'm concerned, there IS no such thing as a bad L'Engle novel.) However, several people who liked the book overall found the ending rushed, incomplete, and unconvincing. So I am bracing myself to be let down .

Subject: RE: 'Juniper, Gentian, and Rosemary'
From: Art Thieme
Date: 30 Jul 99 - 11:14 PM

Another version is "The Devils Nine Questions". It's definitely dangerous and supernatural. It ends with

You have answered my questions nine,
Sing 99 & 90,
You're one of God's, you're not of mine,
And you are the weaver's bonny.

Burl Ives did it and it's also in Bronson in a collected traditional version.

Subject: RE: 'Juniper, Gentian, and Rosemary'
From: katlaughing
Date: 31 Jul 99 - 12:56 AM

According to my Burl Ives Songbook, the Devil's Nine Questions is an example of a singing dialogue which mummers danced to when picturing the devil trying to win a soul.

If they aren't in the DT and somebody wants the lyrics, I'll post them sometime this weekend.

kat

Subject: RE: 'Juniper, Gentian, and Rosemary'
From:
Date: 31 Jul 99 - 03:53 AM

A very good version of the song n°1 in Child collection is by Jean Redpath, in "Lowlands", Rounder/Philo I think, with text: it is sung on the tune the Pentangle used for their version of "The Cruel Sister". But a refrain of this type is common in the Elfin Knight/Scarborough Fair versions(Child n° 2).Bye. Roberto.

Subject: RE: 'Juniper, Gentian, and Rosemary'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 24 Apr 04 - 05:01 AM

I first came across this as 'Jennifer Gentle and Rosemary' when trawling Cornish libraries as a teenager. I did it to death 40 years ago under the misapprehension that I'd made a great discovery until I realised that Francis James Child had in fact got there first.

A really excellent version by Magpie Lane under the title 'Juniper Gentle and Rosemary' appears on their CD 'Six For Gold' BEJOCD-42.