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BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??

GUEST,mauvepink 15 Feb 10 - 03:53 PM
Bert 15 Feb 10 - 04:00 PM
gnu 15 Feb 10 - 04:00 PM
GUEST,mauvepink 15 Feb 10 - 04:08 PM
akenaton 15 Feb 10 - 04:10 PM
SINSULL 15 Feb 10 - 04:11 PM
Q 15 Feb 10 - 04:12 PM
Janie 15 Feb 10 - 04:13 PM
Bert 15 Feb 10 - 04:19 PM
gnu 15 Feb 10 - 04:21 PM
Bert 15 Feb 10 - 04:24 PM
akenaton 15 Feb 10 - 04:29 PM
Janie 15 Feb 10 - 04:32 PM
Lonesome EJ 15 Feb 10 - 04:35 PM
SINSULL 15 Feb 10 - 04:35 PM
GUEST,mauvepink 15 Feb 10 - 04:35 PM
akenaton 15 Feb 10 - 04:38 PM
Murray MacLeod 15 Feb 10 - 04:41 PM
Royston 15 Feb 10 - 04:42 PM
GUEST 15 Feb 10 - 04:43 PM
Janie 15 Feb 10 - 04:43 PM
GUEST,mauvepink 15 Feb 10 - 04:46 PM
gnu 15 Feb 10 - 04:47 PM
Janie 15 Feb 10 - 04:48 PM
GUEST 15 Feb 10 - 04:53 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 15 Feb 10 - 04:54 PM
akenaton 15 Feb 10 - 04:54 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 15 Feb 10 - 04:56 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 15 Feb 10 - 04:59 PM
Lonesome EJ 15 Feb 10 - 05:01 PM
Bert 15 Feb 10 - 05:02 PM
GUEST,mauvepink 15 Feb 10 - 05:04 PM
GUEST,mauvepink 15 Feb 10 - 05:08 PM
Murray MacLeod 15 Feb 10 - 05:09 PM
GUEST,mauvepink 15 Feb 10 - 05:13 PM
GUEST,mauvepink 15 Feb 10 - 05:23 PM
Emma B 15 Feb 10 - 05:28 PM
Ruth Archer 15 Feb 10 - 05:30 PM
SINSULL 15 Feb 10 - 05:32 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 15 Feb 10 - 05:34 PM
katlaughing 15 Feb 10 - 05:39 PM
mauvepink 15 Feb 10 - 05:44 PM
Richard Bridge 15 Feb 10 - 05:44 PM
Murray MacLeod 15 Feb 10 - 05:49 PM
mauvepink 15 Feb 10 - 05:55 PM
Ruth Archer 15 Feb 10 - 05:57 PM
Lonesome EJ 15 Feb 10 - 06:02 PM
mousethief 15 Feb 10 - 06:02 PM
Bert 15 Feb 10 - 06:08 PM
Stilly River Sage 15 Feb 10 - 06:10 PM
mauvepink 15 Feb 10 - 06:11 PM
Ruth Archer 15 Feb 10 - 06:13 PM
mauvepink 15 Feb 10 - 06:14 PM
jeddy 15 Feb 10 - 06:20 PM
Emma B 15 Feb 10 - 06:24 PM
Royston 15 Feb 10 - 06:26 PM
mauvepink 15 Feb 10 - 06:33 PM
mousethief 15 Feb 10 - 06:43 PM
GUEST,Member being sensible 15 Feb 10 - 07:04 PM
Bill D 15 Feb 10 - 07:05 PM
GUEST,lillyruben 15 Feb 10 - 07:11 PM
Bill D 15 Feb 10 - 07:17 PM
jeddy 15 Feb 10 - 07:22 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 15 Feb 10 - 07:24 PM
akenaton 15 Feb 10 - 07:26 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 15 Feb 10 - 07:27 PM
Amergin 15 Feb 10 - 07:29 PM
Amergin 15 Feb 10 - 07:32 PM
jeddy 15 Feb 10 - 07:33 PM
Jim Carroll 15 Feb 10 - 07:36 PM
mousethief 15 Feb 10 - 07:43 PM
Bill D 15 Feb 10 - 07:43 PM
Bill D 15 Feb 10 - 07:51 PM
Amergin 15 Feb 10 - 07:57 PM
jeddy 15 Feb 10 - 08:00 PM
SINSULL 15 Feb 10 - 09:29 PM
jeddy 15 Feb 10 - 09:39 PM
jeddy 15 Feb 10 - 09:44 PM
Janie 15 Feb 10 - 10:52 PM
Janie 15 Feb 10 - 11:39 PM
Bert 16 Feb 10 - 12:01 AM
Janie 16 Feb 10 - 12:14 AM
Janie 16 Feb 10 - 12:22 AM
Ebbie 16 Feb 10 - 12:29 AM
Liz the Squeak 16 Feb 10 - 02:26 AM
Liz the Squeak 16 Feb 10 - 02:48 AM
MGM·Lion 16 Feb 10 - 02:48 AM
Folkiedave 16 Feb 10 - 03:41 AM
mauvepink 16 Feb 10 - 03:42 AM
Royston 16 Feb 10 - 03:51 AM
Genie 16 Feb 10 - 04:14 AM
MGM·Lion 16 Feb 10 - 04:15 AM
GUEST,Lizzie Cornish 16 Feb 10 - 04:18 AM
GUEST,Lizzie Cornish 16 Feb 10 - 04:28 AM
goatfell 16 Feb 10 - 04:45 AM
Dave the Gnome 16 Feb 10 - 04:56 AM
Ruth Archer 16 Feb 10 - 05:02 AM
Emma B 16 Feb 10 - 05:55 AM
Richard Bridge 16 Feb 10 - 07:25 AM
Dave the Gnome 16 Feb 10 - 07:38 AM
Royston 16 Feb 10 - 07:49 AM
Emma B 16 Feb 10 - 08:04 AM
jeddy 16 Feb 10 - 08:13 AM
Bobert 16 Feb 10 - 08:18 AM
Revelations 16 Feb 10 - 08:24 AM
Emma B 16 Feb 10 - 09:07 AM
MGM·Lion 16 Feb 10 - 09:33 AM
jeddy 16 Feb 10 - 09:53 AM
Dave the Gnome 16 Feb 10 - 09:57 AM
SINSULL 16 Feb 10 - 10:00 AM
SINSULL 16 Feb 10 - 10:01 AM
MGM·Lion 16 Feb 10 - 10:08 AM
Ruth Archer 16 Feb 10 - 10:16 AM
Dave the Gnome 16 Feb 10 - 10:20 AM
MGM·Lion 16 Feb 10 - 10:25 AM
MGM·Lion 16 Feb 10 - 10:27 AM
Ruth Archer 16 Feb 10 - 10:38 AM
Dave the Gnome 16 Feb 10 - 10:40 AM
Stilly River Sage 16 Feb 10 - 10:44 AM
MGM·Lion 16 Feb 10 - 10:48 AM
jeddy 16 Feb 10 - 10:52 AM
Dave the Gnome 16 Feb 10 - 10:57 AM
mauvepink 16 Feb 10 - 11:04 AM
Ruth Archer 16 Feb 10 - 11:09 AM
SINSULL 16 Feb 10 - 11:17 AM
mauvepink 16 Feb 10 - 11:21 AM
GUEST,Lizzie Cornish 16 Feb 10 - 11:26 AM
Dave the Gnome 16 Feb 10 - 11:40 AM
GUEST,Lizzie Cornish 16 Feb 10 - 11:45 AM
GUEST,Llizzie Cornish 16 Feb 10 - 11:48 AM
mauvepink 16 Feb 10 - 11:53 AM
MGM·Lion 16 Feb 10 - 11:53 AM
mauvepink 16 Feb 10 - 11:57 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 16 Feb 10 - 12:03 PM
Royston 16 Feb 10 - 12:04 PM
jeddy 16 Feb 10 - 12:05 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 16 Feb 10 - 12:08 PM
mauvepink 16 Feb 10 - 12:10 PM
MGM·Lion 16 Feb 10 - 12:11 PM
SINSULL 16 Feb 10 - 12:15 PM
vectis 16 Feb 10 - 12:19 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 16 Feb 10 - 12:20 PM
Bill D 16 Feb 10 - 12:26 PM
MGM·Lion 16 Feb 10 - 12:26 PM
Royston 16 Feb 10 - 12:32 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 16 Feb 10 - 12:37 PM
mauvepink 16 Feb 10 - 12:37 PM
jeddy 16 Feb 10 - 12:37 PM
SINSULL 16 Feb 10 - 12:44 PM
frogprince 16 Feb 10 - 12:45 PM
vectis 16 Feb 10 - 12:48 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 16 Feb 10 - 01:04 PM
Bill D 16 Feb 10 - 01:05 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 16 Feb 10 - 01:05 PM
GUEST,Been there 16 Feb 10 - 01:05 PM
SINSULL 16 Feb 10 - 01:08 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 16 Feb 10 - 01:13 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 16 Feb 10 - 01:13 PM
Genie 16 Feb 10 - 01:25 PM
SINSULL 16 Feb 10 - 01:25 PM
Dave the Gnome 16 Feb 10 - 01:28 PM
Ruth Archer 16 Feb 10 - 01:28 PM
MGM·Lion 16 Feb 10 - 01:31 PM
Genie 16 Feb 10 - 01:35 PM
Dave the Gnome 16 Feb 10 - 01:41 PM
Dave the Gnome 16 Feb 10 - 01:42 PM
SINSULL 16 Feb 10 - 01:43 PM
jeddy 16 Feb 10 - 01:47 PM
Richard Bridge 16 Feb 10 - 01:47 PM
GUEST,mg 16 Feb 10 - 01:49 PM
Mrrzy 16 Feb 10 - 02:04 PM
jeddy 16 Feb 10 - 02:06 PM
Genie 16 Feb 10 - 02:11 PM
GUEST,mg 16 Feb 10 - 02:13 PM
mauvepink 16 Feb 10 - 02:14 PM
SINSULL 16 Feb 10 - 02:15 PM
Emma B 16 Feb 10 - 02:16 PM
vectis 16 Feb 10 - 02:16 PM
GUEST,mg 16 Feb 10 - 02:17 PM
mauvepink 16 Feb 10 - 02:23 PM
GUEST,mg 16 Feb 10 - 02:31 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 16 Feb 10 - 02:42 PM
Royston 16 Feb 10 - 02:47 PM
mauvepink 16 Feb 10 - 02:49 PM
Lox 16 Feb 10 - 02:50 PM
SINSULL 16 Feb 10 - 02:52 PM
Dave the Gnome 16 Feb 10 - 03:02 PM
Amos 16 Feb 10 - 03:08 PM
Ruth Archer 16 Feb 10 - 03:25 PM
Genie 16 Feb 10 - 03:27 PM
gnu 16 Feb 10 - 03:30 PM
Dave the Gnome 16 Feb 10 - 03:39 PM
mauvepink 16 Feb 10 - 03:55 PM
Bill D 16 Feb 10 - 03:57 PM
SINSULL 16 Feb 10 - 04:12 PM
SINSULL 16 Feb 10 - 04:15 PM
gnu 16 Feb 10 - 04:36 PM
Bill D 16 Feb 10 - 04:40 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 16 Feb 10 - 04:43 PM
Lox 16 Feb 10 - 04:48 PM
Amergin 16 Feb 10 - 05:09 PM
GUEST,999 16 Feb 10 - 05:15 PM
GUEST,999 16 Feb 10 - 05:21 PM
Ruth Archer 16 Feb 10 - 05:28 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 16 Feb 10 - 05:29 PM
Emma B 16 Feb 10 - 05:48 PM
akenaton 16 Feb 10 - 05:50 PM
Amergin 16 Feb 10 - 05:55 PM
Dave the Gnome 16 Feb 10 - 05:58 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 16 Feb 10 - 06:03 PM
Bert 16 Feb 10 - 06:09 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 16 Feb 10 - 06:30 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 16 Feb 10 - 06:31 PM
Richard Bridge 16 Feb 10 - 06:39 PM
Lox 16 Feb 10 - 06:40 PM
mauvepink 16 Feb 10 - 06:41 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 16 Feb 10 - 06:41 PM
Lox 16 Feb 10 - 06:42 PM
Emma B 16 Feb 10 - 06:44 PM
Ruth Archer 16 Feb 10 - 06:46 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 16 Feb 10 - 06:48 PM
jeddy 16 Feb 10 - 06:54 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 16 Feb 10 - 06:54 PM
Lox 16 Feb 10 - 06:55 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 16 Feb 10 - 07:01 PM
akenaton 16 Feb 10 - 07:04 PM
Ruth Archer 16 Feb 10 - 07:05 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 16 Feb 10 - 07:07 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 16 Feb 10 - 07:09 PM
Ebbie 16 Feb 10 - 07:10 PM
Ruth Archer 16 Feb 10 - 07:10 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 16 Feb 10 - 07:14 PM
Ruth Archer 16 Feb 10 - 07:15 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 16 Feb 10 - 07:16 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 16 Feb 10 - 07:20 PM
akenaton 16 Feb 10 - 07:32 PM
Lox 16 Feb 10 - 07:35 PM
Emma B 16 Feb 10 - 07:42 PM
mousethief 16 Feb 10 - 07:45 PM
akenaton 16 Feb 10 - 07:49 PM
Lox 16 Feb 10 - 08:11 PM
jeddy 16 Feb 10 - 08:13 PM
GUEST,999 16 Feb 10 - 09:00 PM
Donuel 16 Feb 10 - 09:19 PM
Janie 16 Feb 10 - 09:51 PM
jeddy 16 Feb 10 - 10:50 PM
Janie 16 Feb 10 - 11:59 PM
MGM·Lion 17 Feb 10 - 12:40 AM
Richard Bridge 17 Feb 10 - 03:20 AM
Liz the Squeak 17 Feb 10 - 04:03 AM
Dave the Gnome 17 Feb 10 - 04:28 AM
GUEST,Lizzie Cornish 17 Feb 10 - 04:51 AM
GUEST,Lizzie Cornish 17 Feb 10 - 05:14 AM
Dave the Gnome 17 Feb 10 - 05:27 AM
Folkiedave 17 Feb 10 - 05:47 AM
GUEST,Bonzo Dog Doda 17 Feb 10 - 06:06 AM
Richard Bridge 17 Feb 10 - 06:11 AM
GUEST,Lizzie Cornish 17 Feb 10 - 06:18 AM
Ruth Archer 17 Feb 10 - 06:21 AM
GUEST,Lizzie Cornish 17 Feb 10 - 06:27 AM
Dave the Gnome 17 Feb 10 - 06:34 AM
GUEST,Lizzie Cornish 17 Feb 10 - 06:40 AM
Emma B 17 Feb 10 - 06:51 AM
GUEST,Lizzie Cornish 17 Feb 10 - 06:54 AM
jeddy 17 Feb 10 - 06:59 AM
GUEST,Lizzie Cornish 17 Feb 10 - 07:22 AM
Dave the Gnome 17 Feb 10 - 07:32 AM
Dave the Gnome 17 Feb 10 - 07:35 AM
Emma B 17 Feb 10 - 07:50 AM
GUEST,Lizzie Cornish 17 Feb 10 - 07:55 AM
GUEST,Lizzie Cornish 17 Feb 10 - 08:01 AM
Bobert 17 Feb 10 - 08:06 AM
Ruth Archer 17 Feb 10 - 08:07 AM
Emma B 17 Feb 10 - 08:14 AM
Emma B 17 Feb 10 - 08:41 AM
Dave the Gnome 17 Feb 10 - 08:42 AM
SINSULL 17 Feb 10 - 09:05 AM
jeddy 17 Feb 10 - 09:30 AM
Emma B 17 Feb 10 - 09:41 AM
GUEST,Bonzo Dog Doda 17 Feb 10 - 12:48 PM
Folkiedave 17 Feb 10 - 01:07 PM
Amos 17 Feb 10 - 01:14 PM
Emma B 17 Feb 10 - 01:18 PM
mauvepink 17 Feb 10 - 01:24 PM
frogprince 17 Feb 10 - 01:35 PM
Amos 17 Feb 10 - 01:47 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 17 Feb 10 - 01:53 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 17 Feb 10 - 01:56 PM
Emma B 17 Feb 10 - 02:21 PM
Amos 17 Feb 10 - 02:25 PM
GUEST,mg 17 Feb 10 - 02:29 PM
mauvepink 17 Feb 10 - 03:01 PM
mauvepink 17 Feb 10 - 03:10 PM
mauvepink 17 Feb 10 - 03:12 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 17 Feb 10 - 04:24 PM
Emma B 17 Feb 10 - 04:31 PM
Emma B 17 Feb 10 - 04:52 PM
McGrath of Harlow 17 Feb 10 - 05:04 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 17 Feb 10 - 05:15 PM
Lox 17 Feb 10 - 05:19 PM
Richard Bridge 17 Feb 10 - 05:23 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 17 Feb 10 - 05:25 PM
Lox 17 Feb 10 - 05:26 PM
akenaton 17 Feb 10 - 05:35 PM
Lox 17 Feb 10 - 05:58 PM
jeddy 17 Feb 10 - 06:38 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 17 Feb 10 - 06:40 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 17 Feb 10 - 06:50 PM
Emma B 17 Feb 10 - 06:53 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 17 Feb 10 - 07:00 PM
mauvepink 17 Feb 10 - 07:13 PM
jeddy 17 Feb 10 - 07:18 PM
McGrath of Harlow 17 Feb 10 - 07:19 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 17 Feb 10 - 07:20 PM
mauvepink 17 Feb 10 - 07:24 PM
vectis 17 Feb 10 - 07:27 PM
bobmac1 17 Feb 10 - 07:28 PM
GUEST,mg 17 Feb 10 - 07:29 PM
Emma B 17 Feb 10 - 07:30 PM
mauvepink 17 Feb 10 - 07:31 PM
McGrath of Harlow 17 Feb 10 - 07:32 PM
mauvepink 17 Feb 10 - 07:41 PM
jeddy 17 Feb 10 - 07:43 PM
mauvepink 17 Feb 10 - 07:56 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 17 Feb 10 - 08:02 PM
mauvepink 17 Feb 10 - 08:06 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 17 Feb 10 - 08:08 PM
mauvepink 17 Feb 10 - 08:18 PM
Amos 17 Feb 10 - 08:38 PM
McGrath of Harlow 17 Feb 10 - 09:09 PM
jeddy 17 Feb 10 - 09:51 PM
Lox 17 Feb 10 - 10:32 PM
jeddy 17 Feb 10 - 10:39 PM
GUEST 17 Feb 10 - 10:42 PM
Lox 17 Feb 10 - 10:49 PM
GUEST,999 17 Feb 10 - 10:57 PM
Richard Bridge 18 Feb 10 - 03:22 AM
GUEST,Lox 18 Feb 10 - 03:52 AM
mauvepink 18 Feb 10 - 04:15 AM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 18 Feb 10 - 04:21 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 18 Feb 10 - 04:49 AM
Dave the Gnome 18 Feb 10 - 05:37 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 18 Feb 10 - 05:47 AM
Dave the Gnome 18 Feb 10 - 05:54 AM
Ruth Archer 18 Feb 10 - 06:09 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 18 Feb 10 - 06:12 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 18 Feb 10 - 06:20 AM
Emma B 18 Feb 10 - 06:29 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 18 Feb 10 - 06:47 AM
GUEST,Lizzie Cornish 18 Feb 10 - 06:59 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 18 Feb 10 - 07:08 AM
Dave the Gnome 18 Feb 10 - 07:15 AM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 18 Feb 10 - 07:17 AM
Emma B 18 Feb 10 - 07:18 AM
Emma B 18 Feb 10 - 07:20 AM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 18 Feb 10 - 07:22 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 18 Feb 10 - 07:34 AM
Emma B 18 Feb 10 - 07:40 AM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 18 Feb 10 - 07:44 AM
Dave the Gnome 18 Feb 10 - 07:48 AM
Ruth Archer 18 Feb 10 - 07:51 AM
Royston 18 Feb 10 - 07:55 AM
Dave the Gnome 18 Feb 10 - 08:01 AM
jeddy 18 Feb 10 - 09:12 AM
mauvepink 18 Feb 10 - 10:52 AM
mauvepink 18 Feb 10 - 11:08 AM
Lox 18 Feb 10 - 02:31 PM
Joe Offer 18 Feb 10 - 02:33 PM
McGrath of Harlow 18 Feb 10 - 04:12 PM
jeddy 18 Feb 10 - 04:40 PM
akenaton 18 Feb 10 - 05:16 PM
gnu 18 Feb 10 - 05:39 PM
Amergin 18 Feb 10 - 05:51 PM
Lox 18 Feb 10 - 06:06 PM
Dave the Gnome 19 Feb 10 - 04:06 AM
Lox 19 Feb 10 - 04:37 AM
McGrath of Harlow 19 Feb 10 - 05:29 AM
Richard Bridge 19 Feb 10 - 06:06 AM
Dave the Gnome 19 Feb 10 - 08:37 AM
Emma B 19 Feb 10 - 09:01 AM
Emma B 19 Feb 10 - 09:02 AM
frogprince 19 Feb 10 - 10:36 AM
frogprince 19 Feb 10 - 10:43 AM
Dave the Gnome 19 Feb 10 - 10:45 AM
Monique 19 Feb 10 - 11:55 AM
Emma B 19 Feb 10 - 01:18 PM
Emma B 19 Feb 10 - 01:39 PM
Richard Bridge 19 Feb 10 - 01:50 PM
paula t 19 Feb 10 - 02:24 PM
Emma B 19 Feb 10 - 02:55 PM
jeddy 19 Feb 10 - 06:06 PM
akenaton 20 Feb 10 - 08:31 AM
Dave the Gnome 20 Feb 10 - 08:46 AM
akenaton 20 Feb 10 - 08:52 AM
mauvepink 20 Feb 10 - 08:56 AM
akenaton 20 Feb 10 - 08:59 AM
akenaton 20 Feb 10 - 09:04 AM
Emma B 20 Feb 10 - 09:07 AM
mauvepink 20 Feb 10 - 09:08 AM
Dave the Gnome 20 Feb 10 - 09:11 AM
mauvepink 20 Feb 10 - 09:12 AM
akenaton 20 Feb 10 - 09:14 AM
akenaton 20 Feb 10 - 09:22 AM
akenaton 20 Feb 10 - 09:23 AM
Dave the Gnome 20 Feb 10 - 09:26 AM
mauvepink 20 Feb 10 - 09:26 AM
akenaton 20 Feb 10 - 09:30 AM
mauvepink 20 Feb 10 - 09:31 AM
akenaton 20 Feb 10 - 09:34 AM
mauvepink 20 Feb 10 - 09:36 AM
Dave the Gnome 20 Feb 10 - 09:36 AM
Dave the Gnome 20 Feb 10 - 09:45 AM
mauvepink 20 Feb 10 - 09:55 AM
mauvepink 20 Feb 10 - 10:00 AM
Raedwulf 20 Feb 10 - 10:54 AM
Raedwulf 20 Feb 10 - 10:55 AM
Dave the Gnome 20 Feb 10 - 10:56 AM
mousethief 20 Feb 10 - 01:17 PM
Richard Bridge 20 Feb 10 - 06:14 PM
Joe Offer 20 Feb 10 - 07:50 PM
Raedwulf 20 Feb 10 - 07:52 PM
Lox 20 Feb 10 - 07:53 PM
Lox 20 Feb 10 - 07:55 PM
Raedwulf 20 Feb 10 - 08:06 PM
Lox 20 Feb 10 - 08:12 PM
Raedwulf 20 Feb 10 - 08:21 PM
Lox 20 Feb 10 - 08:22 PM
Lox 20 Feb 10 - 08:25 PM
Raedwulf 20 Feb 10 - 08:58 PM
skarpi 20 Feb 10 - 09:07 PM
Lox 20 Feb 10 - 09:12 PM
Lox 20 Feb 10 - 09:14 PM
Lox 20 Feb 10 - 09:33 PM
jeddy 20 Feb 10 - 09:56 PM
MGM·Lion 21 Feb 10 - 01:36 AM
MGM·Lion 21 Feb 10 - 01:54 AM
Royston 21 Feb 10 - 04:35 AM
MGM·Lion 21 Feb 10 - 06:12 AM
Royston 21 Feb 10 - 07:14 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 21 Feb 10 - 07:16 AM
mauvepink 21 Feb 10 - 07:25 AM
mauvepink 21 Feb 10 - 07:35 AM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 21 Feb 10 - 07:41 AM
MGM·Lion 21 Feb 10 - 08:09 AM
Richard Bridge 21 Feb 10 - 08:12 AM
Richard Bridge 21 Feb 10 - 08:13 AM
Dave the Gnome 21 Feb 10 - 08:23 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 21 Feb 10 - 08:34 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 21 Feb 10 - 08:35 AM
jeddy 21 Feb 10 - 08:42 AM
akenaton 21 Feb 10 - 08:57 AM
mauvepink 21 Feb 10 - 09:08 AM
mauvepink 21 Feb 10 - 09:17 AM
akenaton 21 Feb 10 - 09:26 AM
mauvepink 21 Feb 10 - 09:33 AM
Folkiedave 21 Feb 10 - 09:34 AM
mauvepink 21 Feb 10 - 09:39 AM
Jeri 21 Feb 10 - 10:22 AM
jeddy 21 Feb 10 - 10:27 AM
Dave the Gnome 21 Feb 10 - 10:56 AM
Dave the Gnome 21 Feb 10 - 11:02 AM
mauvepink 21 Feb 10 - 11:17 AM
akenaton 21 Feb 10 - 11:31 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 21 Feb 10 - 11:39 AM
mauvepink 21 Feb 10 - 11:48 AM
Little Hawk 21 Feb 10 - 11:48 AM
Jeri 21 Feb 10 - 11:52 AM
mauvepink 21 Feb 10 - 11:55 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 21 Feb 10 - 01:44 PM
mauvepink 21 Feb 10 - 01:56 PM
Dave the Gnome 21 Feb 10 - 01:59 PM
jeddy 21 Feb 10 - 02:00 PM
Lox 21 Feb 10 - 02:05 PM
Richard Bridge 21 Feb 10 - 02:25 PM
Bill D 21 Feb 10 - 02:35 PM
Lox 21 Feb 10 - 03:17 PM
Bill D 21 Feb 10 - 04:00 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 21 Feb 10 - 04:51 PM
Dave the Gnome 21 Feb 10 - 05:15 PM
mauvepink 21 Feb 10 - 05:23 PM
akenaton 21 Feb 10 - 05:32 PM
mauvepink 21 Feb 10 - 05:46 PM
Emma B 21 Feb 10 - 05:52 PM
mauvepink 21 Feb 10 - 06:02 PM
mauvepink 21 Feb 10 - 06:05 PM
Emma B 21 Feb 10 - 06:10 PM
mauvepink 21 Feb 10 - 06:32 PM
Ebbie 21 Feb 10 - 06:34 PM
Lox 21 Feb 10 - 06:35 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 21 Feb 10 - 06:57 PM
Little Hawk 21 Feb 10 - 07:24 PM
mauvepink 21 Feb 10 - 07:26 PM
Bill D 21 Feb 10 - 07:47 PM
jeddy 21 Feb 10 - 07:57 PM
Lox 21 Feb 10 - 08:36 PM
Bill D 21 Feb 10 - 08:58 PM
Lox 21 Feb 10 - 10:01 PM
frogprince 21 Feb 10 - 10:13 PM
Lox 21 Feb 10 - 10:36 PM
Lox 21 Feb 10 - 10:37 PM
Dave the Gnome 22 Feb 10 - 04:26 AM
Ruth Archer 22 Feb 10 - 06:17 AM
Dave the Gnome 22 Feb 10 - 06:37 AM
Emma B 22 Feb 10 - 07:31 AM
Bert 22 Feb 10 - 08:31 AM
Liz the Squeak 22 Feb 10 - 10:38 AM
Emma B 22 Feb 10 - 12:35 PM
akenaton 22 Feb 10 - 04:48 PM
Emma B 22 Feb 10 - 05:11 PM
akenaton 22 Feb 10 - 05:27 PM
Ruth Archer 22 Feb 10 - 05:42 PM
akenaton 22 Feb 10 - 06:17 PM
akenaton 22 Feb 10 - 06:26 PM
Folkiedave 22 Feb 10 - 07:44 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 22 Feb 10 - 08:19 PM
MGM·Lion 22 Feb 10 - 10:16 PM
Janie 23 Feb 10 - 12:30 AM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 23 Feb 10 - 03:06 AM
Dave the Gnome 23 Feb 10 - 04:00 AM
MGM·Lion 23 Feb 10 - 05:04 AM
Dave the Gnome 23 Feb 10 - 05:21 AM
MGM·Lion 23 Feb 10 - 05:33 AM
Dave the Gnome 23 Feb 10 - 05:45 AM
Emma B 23 Feb 10 - 05:47 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 23 Feb 10 - 11:48 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 23 Feb 10 - 12:01 PM
MGM·Lion 23 Feb 10 - 12:02 PM
jeddy 23 Feb 10 - 12:07 PM
MGM·Lion 23 Feb 10 - 12:11 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 23 Feb 10 - 12:12 PM
MGM·Lion 23 Feb 10 - 12:15 PM
frogprince 23 Feb 10 - 12:28 PM
jeddy 23 Feb 10 - 12:29 PM
MGM·Lion 23 Feb 10 - 12:44 PM
Jim Carroll 23 Feb 10 - 01:00 PM
Bill D 23 Feb 10 - 01:08 PM
Ruth Archer 23 Feb 10 - 01:08 PM
mauvepink 23 Feb 10 - 01:23 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 23 Feb 10 - 01:27 PM
mg 23 Feb 10 - 01:38 PM
MGM·Lion 23 Feb 10 - 01:40 PM
Emma B 23 Feb 10 - 02:00 PM
frogprince 23 Feb 10 - 02:22 PM
Jim Carroll 23 Feb 10 - 02:53 PM
mg 23 Feb 10 - 03:12 PM
jeddy 23 Feb 10 - 03:18 PM
Lox 23 Feb 10 - 04:33 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 23 Feb 10 - 04:37 PM
mauvepink 23 Feb 10 - 04:47 PM
Lox 23 Feb 10 - 04:51 PM
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Subject: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 03:53 PM

... and this is from Women!

I am really quite devastated by such an article.

Just as I type this there is a programme on about Hate Crimes Against Disabled People on Panorama (BBC1). That in itself is quite depressing but then I saw the above artical and it has stunned me.

I am not sure about the US and other larger western countries, but does this happen everywhere... The victim being blamed for the crime against them? It happens a lot in the UK. But what has amazed me the most is that it is women who have been so judgemental in this survey.

I agree that we, as women, have a duty to ourselves to act responsibly and try to be as safe as we can. Perhaps getting drunk so much that you have no idea what is happening is dangerous. But that does not mean it is okay to be raped. Likewise with wearing certain clothing. I stay away from the term provocative clothing as I cannot define what that is. The definition would depend on who was doing the defining I suspect. You should be able to wear what you want without any implied message of 'rape me' coming across.

I guess the thin line is that moment when a woman decides to get into a man's bed (for want of a better term) but, even then, rape should not be seen as a given.

Most men are responsible themselves. Some will prey on drunken women and some will go further with it, but most are not in that bracket. Lots of girls in certain clothing who are drunk go to men's houses. They do not come away raped. The argument that men should be very careful if taking a drunken woman home is a seperate issue. The men could be drunk themselves for that matter. Rape is far to high a price to pay for a night out.

I find it astounding to attack the victim by saying it is her fault (and I extend that to men who get raped too)

What are we doing wrong here? The words "cart", "before" and "horse" spring to mind.

mp

    Sorry, folks, but we've had far too much impersonation in this thread. No additional Guest posts will be allowed in this thread. If you're not logged in, you're not allowed to post.
    -Joe Offer, Forum Moderator, 21 May 2010-


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Bert
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 04:00 PM

Right mp, NO means NO, wherever and whenever.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: gnu
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 04:00 PM

"Almost three quarters of the women who believed this said if a victim got into bed with the assailant before an attack they should accept some responsibility."

That is as far as I read.... and I agree.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 04:08 PM

"Almost three quarters of the women who believed this said if a victim got into bed with the assailant before an attack they should accept some responsibility."

The BIG issue I have with that is that a great many women actually go for kisses and cuddles.... it can happen in a bed too. Are they to be raped for it?

Lots of women are looking for loving even when they may appear to be being sexual. It's not really rocket science...

Date rape using drugs is an offence. Is alcohol not a drug?

mp


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 04:10 PM

I haven't read the article mp, but I feel it may have something to do with the need for personal responsibility.

Rape is a hideous crime and can never be excused.
I dont think anyone in their right mind would attempt to excuse it, but we must all at some point take some responsibility for our actions.

We would not, for example, walk out into the motorway with our eyes shut; and in the same way, women or men should avoid getting drunk and allowing themselves to be taken to a strangers home, alone.

The crime is still inexcusible, but in cases like these the victims are acting in an extremely irresponsible manner.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: SINSULL
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 04:11 PM

I am more shocked at the Somali court who ruled that the rapist of a seven year old girl was innocent because the victim wore a short skirt. That is obscene.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Q
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 04:12 PM

If they get into bed with the assailant- good heavens, that is consent!


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Janie
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 04:13 PM

I disagree, gnu. No means no, regardless of when it is said.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Bert
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 04:19 PM

No gnu, If I get into bed with my wife and she is not in the mood then NO still means NO, and STOP means STOP, however far along we are.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: gnu
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 04:21 PM

WHAT? A woman gets into bed with someone she doesn't know and trust... you think that's okay?

I think it's very stupid.

I think she's stupid, I think her parents are stupid... it's just stunned as me arse.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Bert
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 04:24 PM

Not wise maybe, but that is not an excuse for raping her.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 04:29 PM

Gnu didn't say it was an excuse! he said it was bloody stupid.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Janie
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 04:32 PM

We are each responsible for our own thoughts, feelings and behaviors. Nothing more, and nothing less. If I choose to go for a jog through the dark alleys of a major city late at night, I am making risky choices, and I am responsible for putting myself at risk. However, if I do get mugged or assaulted, I am in no way to blame for the assailent's decision or actions to assault me.

If some one gets up in my face and starts yelling insults and spits. Chances are I am going to feel really angry, and most people would understand why I was that angry. If I haul off and punch the person, some would say it is that person's fault for getting in my face. I say 1. I am responsible for my emotions. No one "makes" me feel whatever it is I feel. 2. No one but me is responsible for my actions. The person in my face did not make me punch them. I am responsible for my own impulse control, or lack thereof.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 04:35 PM

"I stay away from the term provocative clothing as I cannot define what that is."

Oh come on! I saw a teenage girl today in the supermarket who had a shirt open to below her breastbone, and her breasts prominently displayed.She was chewing gum and gliding on her coaster-wheel tennis shoes. She was with her Mom, and my guess is she was about 15. Are we going to be so politically correct that we can't say that a girl who wears skin-tight jeans 5 inches below her navel, a T-Shirt that says "Spank Me...It's my Birthday" and is split down the center isn't dressing provocatively?
I'm not saying such displays invite rape, nor am I saying that rape is ever the victim's fault. But for Christ's sakes, do you cut your leg and go swimming in a shark tank? A combination of the aforesaid wearing of provocative clothing, coupled with the wrong people in the wrong place, and your chances are definitely and significantly increased that someone will at least take you up on the spanking offer.
A woman who dresses that way is perceived by men in a certain way. You can believe that or not, but most men know what I am talking about. She's expected to behave in that same fashion. The full response to her will depend on the man involved.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: SINSULL
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 04:35 PM

No means No. Rape is rape.
I believe we would all agree that a woman who puts herself in the bed of a man she hardly knows is at best acting foolishly and recklessly with her own safety.
I wonder if the numbers reflect a lack of sympathy for the situation rather than a denial that a rape has occurred.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 04:35 PM

Perhaps the man is being stupid if we women are so stupid as he is opening himself to all sorts of allegations and charges. If the man said "this woman is plainly drunk, I am not getting near her" perhaps she would just fall asleep and feel really bad in the morning... but no crime has happened.

But just in case anyone accuses me of being biased. I also think that any woman who makes a false rape claim (and I do not mean women's whose case cannot be proven as being seen as her making a false accustaion), then she shoudl do the time the man would have got.

I have seen what a malicious rape allegation did to one man and his family. It's affects were equally vicious to him as a rape would have been to her... but obviously very different physically. No women should ever just cry rape if she is in the wrong.

Nevertheless... going into someon'es home should not bee seen as carte blanches permision for sex

mp


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 04:38 PM

If you walked into a motorway with your eyes shut, you are responsible for putting yourself at risk AND causing the accident....unless you were very very lucky.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 04:41 PM

..."I find it astounding to attack the victim by saying it is her fault (and I extend that to men who get raped too)" ...

" men who get raped "???

We are talking heterosexual here, aren't we ????


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Royston
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 04:42 PM

SINSULL: "I am more shocked at the Somali court who ruled that the rapist of a seven year old girl was innocent because the victim wore a short skirt. That is obscene."

Interesting, Sinsull, what is the source for that. I wasn't aware that Somalia had any functioning government, let alone courts that make findings on anything.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 04:43 PM

provocative [prE'vQkEtIv] adjective
            acting as a stimulus or incitement, esp. to anger or sexual desire; provoking

BUT it makes no mention as to intention to invite intercourse or rape.

You said it yourself... much of the time it is as others see it. If men see a girl who has a lovely body, even being inviting, that does not mean she is asking for it.

If I saw a man buying condoms in a chemist I would not immediately think he is after having sex with me or about to go out and rape a woman. He is 'going eqipped' by his provocative actions? Why should men automatically think a girl is up for it because of how she dresses? Women often dress for themselves and not for men. Yes, we like some of the attention, as men like the looking... but rape should never be the outcome.

The flirty, fashion should be kept for what it is. Not an invitaion.

If Toyota advertises it's new car does that mean it's okay to steal one because it looks good?

mp


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Janie
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 04:43 PM

Ake, I don't think intentionally assaulting some one equates with having some one one stumble out in front of your car. It would equate with intentionally trying to hit the person out in the middle of the street, regardless of why the person was out in the street.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 04:46 PM

"We are talking heterosexual here, aren't we ???? "

Men get raped by men and women too.

Rape is rape. The gender matters not though I would suspct male rape to be even more under-reported than female rape.

mp


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: gnu
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 04:47 PM

I think we're talkin bullshit.

Rape is wrong.

Placing yourself in a situation where you might be raped is wrong.

gnightgnu.... have fun kids... see you in a thousand posts.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Janie
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 04:48 PM

Taking risks may be stupid, but not necessarily wrong. Assaulting a person is wrong.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 04:53 PM

"Placing yourself in a situation where you might be raped is wrong"

For many women that is literally anywhere. And heven help her if she is in a minskirt and looks attractive...

Women do not sell raffle tickets to be raped. It happens all over the place, often by someone they actually have known for some time, so there is no safe place vis a vis she might get raped anywhere and at any time.

Her fault? I think not. The person who decides to rape her is the wrongdooer... period!

mp


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 04:54 PM

If you dress like a hooker, you'll be viewed as a hooker.

If you dress with self respect, you'll be treated with self respect.


It is not good enough for women to feel they can dress and behave however they want, and if anything happens, it's the man's fault.

The responsibility is a shared one, I'm afraid..and if you are so sozzled that you can't even remember being raped, well, I guess it's way past time you changed your lifestyle.

Girl Power has been WAY out of control for way too long. Women do not have endless 'rights' whilst men have none. Yes, all men should show self restrain, but that's living in the cloud cuckoo land ain't it..and if you're stupid enough to be stupid, then take on board what can happen...and don't go bleating if it does.

Sorry, but women never used to behave like this years back, and we never got treated that way by men, as in sex being almost expected on a first date, because most people got to know each other first.

We've removed all the safety barriers..and women have been told they have absolute rights to all things. They don't.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 04:54 PM

Taking risks is wrong, if it results in a tragic outcome.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 04:56 PM

"If you dress with self respect, you'll be treated with self respect."

...treated with respect.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 04:59 PM

"For many women that is literally anywhere. And heven help her if she is in a minskirt and looks attractive..."


No, I disagree with that. It is an insult to men to say that.

ALL men are NOT rapists. Most men would kill a man they saw doing that to a woman.

For way too long men have been seen as 'the enemy'....and women have raged out of control.

If the consequences of that are that women now are being shown little respect, then they need to look at themselves for the answers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 05:01 PM

The concept of sexual display is common among animals, and humans are not an exception. But I don't think it takes a scientist to determine when a woman, or a man, is putting forth a sexual display. The response is what is in question here. I don't think there are many here among us who would disagree that a woman in a see-through negligee is putting forth a display. In a private setting, that activity is completely appropriate. In a public environment, it is inappropriate, and I believe such inappropriate public display tends to demean the displayer in the eyes of the opposite sex.

An argument can be made that such clothing stimulates rape, or doesn't. But I don't think there's really too much argument about what constitutes provocative female attire. Prostitutes generally adopt provocative attire as a uniform and an advertisement.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Bert
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 05:02 PM

I agree with mp on this one. If a woman says no then a man should stop, and of course a REAL man will stop.

Just because a thug won't, doesn't make it the woman's fault and it doesn't make the thug right.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 05:04 PM

""If you dress with self respect, you'll be treated with self respect."

...treated with respect"

Lizzie are you implying that self respecting women never get raped? Or murdered?

No-one has absolute rights over anyone else. As a woman I certainly know it and don't expect it. I also do not blame men for everything. Some of the power struggle women have had with men has been necessary. Not too long ago a husband could not be charged with raping his wife... but it happened frequently enough. Still does I suspect... :-(

mp


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 05:08 PM

Lizzie, I am not saying all men are rapists. I hate the very idea. Most men if they came across a rapist would see he never did it again if they could. Most men are good... but there are lots who are predatory too.

But I maintain a woman can get raped virtually anywhere on the planet. The bit about the miniskrt was using irony... not a serious suggestion.

mp


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 05:09 PM

..."Men get raped by men and women too" ...

sorry, but does that translate to :

"men get raped by men, and men get raped by women too"

or does it translate to:

"men get raped by men, and women also get raped by men"

???

If the first, then I don't geddit.

How the hell does a man get "raped" by a woman ???

And as an aside, I might be out of date here, but as far as I recollect there is no such crime as male on male "rape". Assault, buggery, maybe, but "rape" as far as I recall (and I am talking legal definition, not socio-speak) is a male on female crime.

Come in Richard Bridge, tell me I'm right ...


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 05:13 PM

The Myth of Male Rape


About Male Rape and Sexual Abuse


I meant men get raped by men AND by women too

mp


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 05:23 PM

Rape definition in England and Wales


just to explain some of it though Scotland is only men on woman. I am not at all sure on other countries

mp


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Emma B
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 05:28 PM

Avedon Carol is an American-born feminist, , civil liberties campaigner and a researcher in the field of sex crime, residing in England. She observes -

"Although all existing evidence shows that actual rape rates have not increased since 1960, the moral right has successfully used higher rape reporting rates to con the populace into believing that society has become more violent, principally due to more openness about sexuality and the increasing refusal of women to be silenced. We were too cowed to talk about being sexually assaulted before the late 1960s; therefore, it did not happen."

Rape, like the poor, has always been with us Lizzie despite your continual insistence that everything was just so much better in your mythical past.
Women did just not report it as much as they were frequently met with the same sort of unsupportive
or even punitive attitudes you espouse.

'If you dress like a hooker, you'll be viewed as a hooker.'

Are you suggesting that prostitutes have no rights to be protected against sexual assault Lizzie?

Like the West Virginian Lawyer who, last year, failed to convince a jury that his 31 year old client who had been accused of a pattern of sexual assaults on 15-20 prostitutes during which he would threaten them with a knife and force them to have sex. Was innocent of rape as 'they are street tramps. And what happened to them was, at least in part, their fault'


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 05:30 PM

"If you dress like a hooker, you'll be viewed as a hooker.

If you dress with self respect, you'll be treated with self respect."

Weren't you, just a few weeks ago, raging about women in the middle east who are not allowed to wear whatever they want? Who are compelled by men to dress "modestly"? If a Muslim man has no right to tell a woman what to wear, why do you?

"Sorry, but women never used to behave like this years back, and we never got treated that way by men"

So women were never raped before the miniskirt was invented? Rape is a late-20th century invention? Out of interest: you know the prostitutes who were murdered by Jack the Ripper, or by Peter Sutcliffe...did they "deserve it"? Had their profession made it all right for them to be raped and killed? And is it possible for a prostitute to be raped?


"Yes, all men should show self restrain, but that's living in the cloud cuckoo land ain't it.."

So if a woman is wearing a low-cut top or a short skirt, it would be nice if a man could control himself, but completely understandable and excusable if he didn't, and raped her?

"....and women have raged out of control."

by wearing provocative clothing?


You really dislike other women, don't you Lizzie?


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: SINSULL
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 05:32 PM

Royston,
The child appeared on a TV documentary (BBC?) about a school for Somali rape victims and girls rescued from the sex trade. Justice is handed out by Islamic militant tribunals. They are called courts.
SINS


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 05:34 PM

mp, there is no excuse for rape, but there is no excuse for arrogance either, and women who deliberately behave and/or dress provocatively, then whinge if things don't go the way they expected, really have to take a large chunk of responsibility for putting themselves in that position in the first place.

Yes, women from all walks of life can get raped, but chances are it'll happen to you less if you have self respect, don't put yourself into crazy situations, and are very much 'street aware'

It worries the shite out of me the way so many women dress and behave these days.

Yeah, I know, I'm gettin' old, but seriously, something needs to change.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 05:39 PM

This sounds like the same old women-hating-each-other in the competition to gain a man - the Bachelor comes to mind with the demeaning crap several women go through to be "the one" he chooses. I know we've come some ways from those days, but with this survey it sound as though society is taking a step back, maybe several.

I dressed in an ordinary fashion with plenty of self-respect when an ex-boyfriend came to my home, forced his way in and raped me.

I hear what you mean LeeJ, I used to get after my oldest daughter in her mid-teens because of the way she dressed. But by putting it off on how the woman dresses, it reminds me of the reasons women in Afghanistan and other mid-Eastern countries are made to cover every inch of their body with heavy drapes AND are not supposed to let their feet make any sound as they walk. It is, according to the ones in charge, too much for the men to handle. They don't put it that way, but that's what they are saying...if a woman shows her ankle, arm, any shape of a body, she is inciting the men who have no control over their "urges" i.e. she's asking for it.

Not in my book, though I loath some of what I see for supposed "fashion" these days.

Here's one or two explanations from men who feel they were raped by women..

NO DOES mean NO!


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: mauvepink
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 05:44 PM

It has been my experience that often, when women round on other women and become so judgemental about them, there is often a jealousy going on somewhere because the 'freer' women are more expressive, or attractive, or something about them that the other women envy.

No women would envy being raped but to stop women dressing as they like is a crime in itself. To be upset because someone looks better than you, has more youth, energy, panache, is absurd. Men dress how they like and seldom is a word charged at them. Builders bum, beer bellies, moobs, socks with open toed sandals... (No! not all men of course. I am just illustrating the point).

If a woman is trying to make herself look attarctive, the way SHE wants to look attractive, not someone elses idea, then go for it. If she is more attractive than me (not a hard task) then good luck to her. There is no power in acting the way you think people want you to be.

I wonder what the pensioner was wearing who got raped in her care home last year? How much dignity and self respect would she have had? Or the children who get raped and murdered on their way home from school... Which is why I personally hate this 'schoolgirl party fashion' thing.

Women and men who get rape need help and understanding: not blame

mp


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 05:44 PM

Wasn't it Lizzie who said in a post a long time ago "It costs me a lot of money to look this cheap"?


I am sure that it is not all that rare (outside an existing relationship) for a woman to agree to get into a man's bed (and maybe the other way round) and to be content to cuddle or to indulge in minor sexual activity but to draw the line at some point.

Most men will feel somewhat aggrieved at that point (in contract law and constitutional law the concept or "reasonable expectation" has relevance) but most will not then proceed to obtain by force that which has been withheld. Nor should they, but the woman can in due course expect to be persona non grata.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 05:49 PM

a sensitive and thought -provoking post, Kat, and I feel for you.

please forgive me, however, if I take Dr Helen Smith with just the tiniest grain of salt.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: mauvepink
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 05:55 PM

oh Lizzie I see women every week I am out that I worry about. Drunk, half naked and possibly at risk on the streets walking home. BUT... they should still be safe totally. No matter how drunk or half dressed they are, no-one has the right to rape them. There does have to be a change. Men need to stop raping women and vice versa.

I fear for young women all the time. But I stand by their right to dress how they wish. They do not have a right to act and behave badly, swear and use foul language in public. No-one does. But they do have a right to be safe from harm. We (men and women) all should have that right.

mp


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 05:57 PM

"Yes, women from all walks of life can get raped, but chances are it'll happen to you less if you have self respect"

So are there statistics to support the idea that most women who get raped were dressed provocatively?


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 06:02 PM

Katlaughing, I think we are still hung up on a couple of things.
1)No woman wants rape, no matter how they dress
2)Some women dress in a way that suggests general promiscuity ("Spank me...I'm bad!" on the t shirt)..and we all recognize the styles.
3)Some men rape women whether they dress promiscuously or not. Whether they are considered objectively attractive or not.
4)Certain behaviors(Dressing promiscuously, getting into bed with a man) are extremely risky when combined with other situations (too much to drink at a frat party where some men have also had too much to drink, hitchhiking)
My argument was with the statement about "I don't know what promiscuous attire is".


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: mousethief
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 06:02 PM

Also the statistics link up provocative dress with self-esteem? How exactly is self-esteem measured? Provocativeness of dress? Just curious.

O..O
=o=


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Bert
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 06:08 PM

Statistics say that most victims know the rapist. Which would suggest that dress has little to do with it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 06:10 PM

Sorry, but women never used to behave like this years back, and we never got treated that way by men, as in sex being almost expected on a first date, because most people got to know each other first.

What planet was this? Whose history is this?

And as an aside, I might be out of date here, but as far as I recollect there is no such crime as male on male "rape". Assault, buggery, maybe, but "rape" as far as I recall (and I am talking legal definition, not socio-speak) is a male on female crime.

Rape is a violent crime. It just happens to have the sex act as the vehicle. It is also one of opportunity. The rapist sees the opportunity and takes it. The over-wrought husband or boyfriend who can't take "no" if the partner changes his or her mind (for whatever reason) becomes a rapist if force is applied. The dissapointed partner is entitled to be pissed off, is entitled to call quits to such a relationship if he thinks he was being toyed with, but he isn't entitled to force his way. You can substitute "she" and "her" in the aggressor mode, but it makes for sloppy writing to try to include all options all of the way through that paragraph.

Who knows what goes on in the head of a rapist, but the victims aren't just drunk attractive young women in miniskirts. If everyone adopted a policy of keeping an eye out on where they are and not leaving themselves open to be preyed upon, there would be fewer, but it wouldn't go away.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: mauvepink
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 06:11 PM

LonesomeEJ... it was me who posted ""I stay away from the term provocative clothing as I cannot define what that is.""

By that I meant I do not seeing clothing in that way. I suspect what many would provocative would rely on a great many factors. Their moral stance, their judging, their holier than though position: all variables that shift the line of what some would call okay and others risque. Likewise. What is 'normal clothing'? Who sets the line?

Of course we know when we see it for ourselves but it is different for most. Even so, no matter what someone wears, should not render them open to rape. In short I do not have a persoanl definition for provocative clothing as I think all is fair if the person wearing it is happy.

If I were to invoke judgements on some clothes it would not start with skimpy tops and mainiskirts. There are soem fashion nightmares out there but.. who am I to judge? I am hardly Mona Lisa so it gives me no right to criticise

Hope this explains what I meant.

mp


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 06:13 PM

"Rape is a violent crime. It just happens to have the sex act as the vehicle."

Spot on.

"Statistics say that most victims know the rapist. Which would suggest that dress has little to do with it."

Again - spot on.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: mauvepink
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 06:14 PM

"Also the statistics link up provocative dress with self-esteem? How exactly is self-esteem measured? Provocativeness of dress? Just curious."

Interesting question mousethief because I would suspect that by some women wearing some of the clothes they do it actually increases their own self-esteem. Some it's power dressing. Some it's fashion' Some is just who they are. Some have oodles of confidence, some it gives confidence. No-one has a right to decry them for it in my opinion (and I know you are not)

mp


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: jeddy
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 06:20 PM

ok, i have been avoiding mudcat lately and even when i came back i stayed above the line, and some of the opinions on this thread has shown me i was wise to stay away.

however, this is a subject very close to my heart.

HOW DARE anyone say that rapists have an excuse!!!!!

what does it matter where you are, what you are wearing or not.
what should it matter if you are married?

if there was a woman in the street naked, saying come on then and decided to change her mind, she should be able to do so, without fear.

no one has the right to make you do something that you don't want to do. it should be safe to do, go and dress anyway you want to.

lizzie i am appalled at your reason and logic. how can you be all about freedoms and rights, when the most basic right to respect, you say is tosh?

ake, ok, to explain to am man, (sorry to be patronising). imagine you have left your curtains open and a bit of expansive jewelry on your bed. someone breaks in, not only stealing what is yours but trashes your house and pisses all over your bed as well. not only are you outraged and scared but feel violated as nothing else could make you feel.
you tell your friends whats happened and all you get is a smile and told well you shouldn't have left it out in view.
in priniple, you should be able to have anything in your house and it be safe and secure, no one should have the right to enter your house without you inviting them. if they behave inapropriatly, you have the right to change your mind and throw them out again.

rape is no different, apart from it is to do with a persons body.
it is the attitude of the purportrators that is different of course, from hearing stories, it is the control they desire. provoking fear is all part of the 'buzz'.

i will leave you all to think and give myself time to calm down.

take care all
jade x x


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Emma B
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 06:24 PM

From Utah State University Sexual Assault and Anti Violence Information

Myth: Rape victims provoke the attach by wearing provocative clothing -

"A Federal Commission on Crime of Violence Study found that only 4.4% of all reported rapes involved provocative behavior on the part of the victim. -
Most convicted rapists do not remember what their victims were wearing. -
Victims range in age from days old to those in their nineties, hardly provocative dressers."

From research in Arizona -

"Like domestic violence, rape is a crime of power and control. Myths that rape only happens to young, beautiful women wearing provocative clothing perpetuate the idea that rape is a crime of passion, when in fact all women are vulnerable to rape, regardless of age, race, class, education or physical appearance."

Following an Amnesty International national survey in the UK

Spokeswoman Kate Allen said: "The poll shows a shocking proportion of the public blame women for being raped. The Government must launch a new drive to counteract this sexist culture."
The poll highlights public ignorance of the problem as well as the dreadfully low conviction rates"

From Prevention Pathways

"Most sexual assault victims are wearing regular clothes like blue jeans or pajamas when they are assaulted, not provocative clothing"

There is much more of this ......

"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Royston
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 06:26 PM

SINSULL: "Royston,
The child appeared on a TV documentary (BBC?) about a school for Somali rape victims and girls rescued from the sex trade. Justice is handed out by Islamic militant tribunals. They are called courts.
SINS"


Thanks for clarifying, I just wanted to be sure that we were talking about the acts of small gangs of stateless murdering gangsters, rather than any recognised or accepted government institution or other social/religious structure.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: mauvepink
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 06:33 PM

Many women too, lest we forget, are raped by invading armies. I guess they are 'asking for it' because they happen to live in a warzone.

Forget the clothing issue... forget the alcohol...

There are many reasons rapists rape but most is to do with sheer power and control. Pointinga finger at the victim only gives credence to the rapist and almost makes sure women (or men) will not come forward only to get rapedagain by the legal system and society

mp


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: mousethief
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 06:43 PM

Pointinga finger at the victim only gives credence to the rapist and almost makes sure women (or men) will not come forward only to get rapedagain by the legal system and society

Very true. If anything is ever going to be done about rape it will only be when its victims feel safe about how they will be treated by the police and courts and media. Bullsh** like the article referred to by the opening post of this thread, and some of the bullsh** that has been sprayed along the way, only makes it harder for rapists to be brought to justice. You might as well be paying bribes directly to the judges to look the other way; that's the effect you're having in the real world. Thanks a fucking heap. You know who you are.

O..O
=o=


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: GUEST,Member being sensible
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 07:04 PM

LEJ made the comment 'No Women wants to be raped' - I would argue that point , having (some years ago) finally got a lass I really fancied ino bed ! My Ardour was Forcibly quenched when she said "Rape Me ! Rape Me!"
I kid you not , that is a SERIOUS put off !
And no , I didnt
This post had been deleted, but I re-instated it once he contacted me and I understood why he'd posted as a guest. -JC


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 07:05 PM

"No means No. Rape is rape"

Absolutely.... this needs to be said to both boys & girls at about age 13, and repeated every 6 months for the next 30-40 years. A woman...or girl... is entitled to change her mind..at any point!, but she ought to be aware that there will be men who simply will not respect that rule/law.
We, as a species, are only a few thousand years out of a situation where it was understood that men fought each other for mates, and women accepted the situation....(well, we don't 'know' how many resisted.)

It is illegal to run red lights too, but it is done every day, and it is foolish to head into an intersection without looking to see if any stupid, selfish lawbreakers are coming!

   There is a huge difference between suggesting that rapists have any 'excuse' and noting that women need to exercise judgment about where they go, how they dress and who they associate with. It is just sensible to be aware that some men will not be rational and will not respect the law, changes of mind or common sense. Those millions of years of hormones and urges are still operating, and many men WANT to believe that 'the law shouldn't apply in cases of temptation'. That is why that the law needs to be made crystal-clear to every boy at puberty, and repeated every....ummm... 30 minutes? for the next few decades.
Women are NOT responsible for rape, but they need to be aware that accusations of rape if they have been totally careless will not be viewed well by some judges or juries. That's the way it is!


I don't know if humans... male AND female.. will ever resolve this relic from our evolutionary heritage. All we can really do is make laws, and EDUCATE about those laws, and do what we can to resolve the built in contradictions between the urge to respond TO the opposite sex and the need to have rules about how those urges should be expressed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: GUEST,lillyruben
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 07:11 PM

you know in this day and age do people not understand the word NO or are we still in the dark ages, we will be in the dark ages soon anyway as we have nearly paralyzed the earth never mind paralyzed certain peoples minute brains


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 07:17 PM

That comment from 'sensible member' reminded me of the time...maybe 35 years ago... when I was giving a female acquaintance a ride to a party. We had stopped at her place so she could change clothes, and although I cannot remember how the conversation got onto this subject, she told me (paraphrased) " you know, my fantasy is that some guy will just grab me and throw me down and 'take me'...."

then she stopped...looked at me...and added.. "but not anyone who knows about it ahead of time, of course.."

I just grinned at her.. (I was married at the time, and had no designs on her anyway.... and was sort of complimented that she'd trust me with the information.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: jeddy
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 07:22 PM

this seems to be a common fantasy bill.
it is one thing to want to be wanted, to be controlled and dominated BUT this is why couples have codewords! the choice to keep going is always there. i think they might find the reality shockingly different!

jade x x x x x x x


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 07:24 PM

"Wasn't it Lizzie who said in a post a long time ago "It costs me a lot of money to look this cheap"?"

Come on, Richard...that was in response to the Facebook BNP person who went on about my hair, make-up etc..and it was a humourous response to a pretty nasty tirade, as WELL you know, you rascal! :0)


"lizzie i am appalled at your reason and logic. how can you be all about freedoms and rights, when the most basic right to respect, you say is tosh?"

Respect yourself first. I am fair fed up with women going around half naked, crude behaviour abounding, drinking themselves under the table and who feel it is there RIGHT to behave however they want. It is not.

If you READ my posts, jade, you'll see that I said there is no excuse for rape, but for any woman to actively put herself into that position is madness.

If you choose to dress like a whore, then you'll be viewed as one. You may not like to hear that, but I'm afraid it's true.

This whole change in women's attitudes and 'rights' came about with the dreaded Girl Power, from which women drew the attitude that they have any right in the world and men have none. It's shit, basically.

My generation was never brought up with that viewpoint..and we knew to look after ourselves, not behave in a sluttish way, not jump into bed with any Tom, Dick or Harry on a first or second date...not to dress like hookers..and not to land up on the pavement unable to get up because of being totally pissed out of our brains.

No, it is no excuse for women to be raped, there is no excuse, but for Gawd's sake girls, get a grip on reality! Stop behaving like spoilt, out of control brats, stick your boobs back inside your tops, wear jeans that actually cover your bums, throw the thongs out the window and start behaving in a far more responsible way.

Yes, you can still get raped by men, but your chances of it are reduced hugely if you ain't out there in 'Hookers R Us' clothes.

Women have rights, but they also have responsibilites, as do men...and it's way past time to put away the Girl Power and start using the Grown Up, Responsible Woman Power instead, that sends the right message out to the right men, instead of the wrong message to the wrong men.

Rapists are in the minority within the male population, and as I stated above, most men would make sure that any man they caught raping a woman would never be able to do that again, because they're decent human beings.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 07:26 PM

Janie... I don't think you understand my meaning.

I wasn't talking about someone stumbling out on to the motorway. I was referring to someone, who knowing the risks, walks out either drunk or with their eyes shut. That person is responsible for their own safety.

Any person who gets drunk and into the house/bed of a stranger is likewise responsible for their own safety.

Saying that does not excuse the crime of rape, but does illustrate the need for a degree of personal responsibility.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 07:27 PM

The understanding of the word 'No' is JUST as important as the understanding of the words 'Personal Responsibility'.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Amergin
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 07:29 PM

The US military is big on blaming the victim. they still consider it as a boys club. I know some one who was in, and was raped by this guy. She was then told that if she pursued it, they will charge her with adultery as he happened to be married.

Sound vaguely familiar?


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Amergin
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 07:32 PM

Oh, and Lizzie, your self righteous pap is sickening.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: jeddy
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 07:33 PM

ok lizzie you want FACTS?
FACT 1 i am gay!
FACT 2 he KNEW that!
FACT 3 i was wearing normal jeans and a t shirt.
FACT 4 i had known him for a while and had mutual friends.
FACT 5 when i got into bed with him, to sleep might i add, i was wearing knickers and bra and t shirt.

in what way was i dressing like a slut?
in what way, apart from trusting the wrong person, was i asking for it?
before you say anything else, i have slept with men before and since that happened and they have been decent men.

i am not ashamed of anything i post here, it is not my crime to be ashamed of!


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 07:36 PM

"I find it astounding to attack the victim by saying it is her fault "
A number of priests who persistently and systematically raped children in their care in Ireland have blamed their victims for putting temptation in their way.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: mousethief
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 07:43 PM

Yes, you can still get raped by men, but your chances of it are reduced hugely if you ain't out there in 'Hookers R Us' clothes.

That's already been disproven. What a woman wears has all but nothing to do with her chances of being raped because it's NOT ABOUT BEING SEXY. It's about POWER.

O..O
=o=


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 07:43 PM

**Humans are the only animals who know how to rationalize**


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 07:51 PM

Mousethief... I rather think that's way too broad a generalization. It's a serious comment, and way too applicable, but many things enter into all human actions.
The temptation to over-simplify should be watched.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Amergin
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 07:57 PM

Jeddy, nevermind Lizzie...she's just bitter because she has been stranded here for ages....she hopes that someday soon, they will hear her distress beacon, and rescue her...and take her to her home planet.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: jeddy
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 08:00 PM

thanks amergin..PMSL!!!

take care x x x x x x x x


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: SINSULL
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 09:29 PM

Jeddy makes an excellent point.
There are a number of women here on Mudcat who have been raped, some quite violently. None that I know of were dressed provocatively; none were impaired by alcohol or in a place where they should not have been.
True to statistics, most were attacked by someone they knew but at least two by total strangers.
The statistics and research show that rape is a crime of power not lust. The rapist is not "attracted" to his victim. He wants to exert power over her.
Read a paper once in a while - middle-aged and elderly women are targeted. Young mothers in the sight of their children are targeted. Most women are raped by aomeone they know - more often than not a spouse or significant other.
Nuns have been raped in their convent.
Most rapes go unreported - as much as 59% in the US although I don't know how they figure that.
As a rape victim, I am appalled at some of the comments made here. I pray that you never have to endure the pain and humiliation as well as the years of nightmares and fear that a violent rape produces. The man who raped me also molested several little boys before he started stalking women. I was not his first. I was the only one who fought to have the case heard. He was found guilty of robbery and imprisoned for three months because he had stolen my purse at gunpoint. Without a third party to confirm the rape, it could not be presented in court - NYC law at the time.
By the way, I was two houses from my home. I was wearing a pea coat and slacks - loose fitting. It was snowing heavily so I was wrapped in a wool scarf, gloves, boots - very suggestive costume - and carrying an assortment of shopping bags. I guess I deserve what I got.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: jeddy
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 09:39 PM

well said sinsull!! you have nothing to be ashamed of hunny. be brave, and try to thnk if anything posotive has come out of it.
take care.
hugs
jade x x x x x


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: jeddy
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 09:44 PM

i should point out that aterwards, i was terrified. it was ages until i saw him again. i called his name, he looked round and we locked eyes and i wasn't afraid.
still messed up though, so i went to another city and there met my true love. it hasn't always been plain sailing, but worth every heartache to get here.

some people aren't as lucky as i have been and my heart goes out to them.
take care all
love
jade x x x x x x x


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Janie
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 10:52 PM

Ake, I did not mistake your meaning at all.   Your analogy still does not hold. I do not consider that men are like drivers in a vehicle unable to stop fast enough to avoid hitting the person who steps blindfolded into traffic.    Thing is, the driver in that instance, is very likely to have to deal with irrational self-blame. The driver is responsible for driving responsibly, but it is never possible, no matter how responsible one is, to eliminate all risk.   No one drives completely responsibly. We are not robots. We can not do perfect risk assessments of every situation. To get into a vehicle, whether as driver or as passenger, is to take risks.



There is a world of difference between blame and responsibility, but it is a difference that many, if not most, people do not get. I spend a lot of time in therapy sessions on working with people to get them to the place they can make the distinction. I mostly work with people who have experienced significant trauma, mostly with men and women who were physically and/or sexually abused as children, but also with people who have experienced adult trauma, mostly domestic violence, assault, rape, or bad vehicle accidents. Some of these people are also abusive in their adult relationships or with their own children.




I think the results reported in the survey mp posted about and linked to reflect 1. the difficulty people have sorting out the difference between blame and responsibility, 2. complex psychological defenses, and psychosocial defenses deployed by victims and those vulnerable to victimization, and by aggressors and those with enough power to be the aggressor (physical, psychological or social) which result in a collusion (spelling?) to maintain a power structure.

Anybody ever read "The Color Purple"?


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Janie
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 11:39 PM

Not several, Sins - many. If one were to do a survey on just this small forum of women who have been raped, assaulted, and/or who were sexually abused as children, I think all of us would be astonished, myself included, and I would probably predict a higher percentage than most. ( I also think if one were to do a survey of men on this forum who experienced sexual abuse as children, we would all be astonished at the numbers.)

Not saying only incest, saying sexual abuse, which includes inappropriate touching or invitations to touch, or watching an adult or older child (teen) masturbate, etc. Some here are incest survivors. Many more encountered a neighbor, uncle, aunt, trusted family friend, older brother on drugs, or a friend of an older brother or sister - maybe just once-maybe a "near miss" physically but a bulls-eye psychologically, or maybe on-going over years-made possible because of the real vulnerabilities, physically, culturally, and psychologically, due to differences in power and/or authority.

That it why it is so important to reinforce that No means No where authority over the body is concerned.   

Rape is a crime of power and control, whether it is about physical power and control or psychological power and control. Childhood abuse, be it sexual, physical or psychological, is about the same thing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Bert
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 12:01 AM

...That person is responsible for their own safety...

What you are really saying is that it is OK to assault that person because they are being stupid. Just remember that the next time you do something stupid.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Janie
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 12:14 AM

Thank you, Bert, for cutting right to the chase, and being spot on when you do so.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Janie
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 12:22 AM

Although I don't know that Ake and the village idiot realize that is what they are saying.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 12:29 AM

Juneau's Buddy Tabor wrote a line in his song 'Meadowlark' that wrenches my heart:

'Innocence taken at the point of a knife
Child alone in a tearful night'


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 02:26 AM

Lizzie - " but chances are it'll happen to you less if you have self respect, don't put yourself into crazy situations, and are very much 'street aware'"   

Complete, total and utter bollocks.

You ever been raped?

Don't pontificate unless you have the experience to back it up.

LTS


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 02:48 AM

And before you ask, yes... someone I knew, someone I trusted, I was fully and conservatively clothed, stone cold sober, it was broad daylight and an open, residential area in a pleasant English village.

LTS


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 02:48 AM

I think you are overstating that, LTS. Sorry about your experiences: but one doesn't need to experience every misfortune going to have empathy with those who have suffered them; neither does such a lack disqualify one from expressing a rational opinion as to how they might best be avoided, even tho one might know that such evasive action is never going to be completely foolproof.   

To declare an interest ~ my wife was once screwed against her will while staying overnight without me with some old and, we thought, dear friends in London once. I didn't find out about it till after that friend was dead, so never had the chance to confront him about it. I still feel badly about the whole thing, and so did my wife until the end of her life. But I don't feel that this experience at, as it were, second hand, gives me any more right to express an opinion on this thread than another guy whose wife was never thus taken unwilling advantage of. And so on, right up to those who have had the genuine, full-on misfortune we are discussing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Folkiedave
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 03:41 AM

Jeddy, nevermind Lizzie...she's just bitter because she has been stranded here for ages....she hopes that someday soon, they will hear her distress beacon, and rescue her...and take her to her home planet.

She is part of Mudcat's "Care in the Community Programme". And I have to tell you there are chunks of her own planet that don't want her back.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: mauvepink
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 03:42 AM

Whilst I posted the topic to create discussion on a very important subject, I can only apologise if anything that has come from it has opened old wounds or caused upset for some. That was NOT my intention in any way and my jeart goes out to those who have been involved in such horrible crimes against them.

We are only a small group and see how many have actually been attacked. This would suggest it is a far greater crime in numbers than any statistics would show and vastly under-reported.

Cyber hugs to the brave one's who have spoken out. Am sorry if this has hit you. Good luck for the future too :-)

mp


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Royston
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 03:51 AM

Sorry Lizzie Cornish. Well, I'm not sorry really. I have to pick you up on a point referenced by someone else.

A few weeks ago you accused 2bn Muslims of being vile, backward, degenerate woman-hating heathens (or words to that effect) because you said that they forced women to cover themselves against their will and to behave in certain ways in order to be controlled or so as not to be raped by the evil Muslim men.

Now, here, we find you arguing that, errm, women should cover themselves up so that they don't get raped, and that they bring it on themselves if they fail to do so and/or act in certain ways you regard as problematic.

Hmm, interesting. It would be funny if you weren't so harmful and offensive with your accusations.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Genie
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 04:14 AM

I think people in general, from childhood, need to have it explained very clearly that a crime against another person is still a crime, even if that other person was being careless or acting in such a way as to tempt that action. This means if you invite someone into your home and show them your jewelry -- maybe even promise to give them some of it -- if they then take that jewelry without your express permission, that's theft. A crime. If someone staggers drunk out into the street and you hit them with your car when you clearly could have avoided that if you chose to, you could still be charged with either negligent homicide, manslaughter or even first-degree murder, if you either deliberately ran them down or made absolutely no effort to stop or swerve.   If someone taunts you, calls you names, insults your mother, and even yells "Hey! You want a piece of me!?" you are still guilty of battery if you throw the first punch, when you could have simply walked away.   And if I leave my brand new Mercedez (Yeah, like I really have one! lol) parked in a "bad neighborhood" with the keys in the ignition, my insurance company may refuse to pay in full when (not "if") it gets stolen, and they may even drop my coverage, but the law still says that's felony theft.

Rape is the only crime I can think of where many people seem to think the victim's carelessness, provocation, stupidity, etc. somehow totally negates the crime.   And I think that stems partly from the mistaken belief that being raped "isn't all that bad;" from the attitude that women are inherently evil temptresses who make men want to sin; from the belief that "a stiff prick has no conscience or self-control" (Try setting of the fire alarm and see how quickly a guy's physiological urges can shift gears.); or from the idea that, in a dating relationship or marriage, a woman couldn't have any good reason for changing her mind once foreplay began.   

Again, we generally don't apply 'logic' like that to other crimes against people.


Of course we need to teach women how to avoid and/or protect themselves from attacks, sexual and otherwise, and do what they can not to be victims.   Women also need to understand how difficult it is -- and should be -- to prove rape when (as is usually the case) there are no witnesses nor evidence of "consent" and "coercion" after the fact. And both girls and boys need to understand that falsely crying "rape" is itself a serious assault on another person.   But that should never, ever mean that a crime is "OK" just because it was committed against someone who was acting irresponsibly.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 04:15 AM

Come on, Royston. Parameters may be argued ad inf ~ but surely you can see the diffce between wearing a 'Spank my bare bottom please, I am such a naughty girl!' T-shirt & being forced to cover up every inch except the eyes in hot thick black blankets. Give poor old Lizzie a bit of a fair deal, now.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 04:18 AM

Yup, lots of pain in this thread...but your cases are not the ones I'm talking about.


What is so worrying to me is that we are not educating our young female population to be aware. We seem to be educating them almost to tease, to dress like any rapists fantasy, to entice, to behave highly inappropriately and then...to scream their heads off when things go horribly wrong.   

"if there was a woman in the street naked, saying come on then and decided to change her mind, she should be able to do so, without fear."

Well, yes and no. She should also realise how bloody stupid she's being, and how naive too. In an ideal world, that would work, but in the real world, it doesn't. If you lead someone on to believe that you want something, are 'gagging' for it, then change your mind at the last moment, chances are, you're going to get a reaction you may not like.

Is it not best to be aware FIRST that you don't lead anyone to that point in the first place if you are not totally serious?



"no one has the right to make you do something that you don't want to do. it should be safe to do, go and dress anyway you want to."

But it isn't, jade. It simply isn't. And as you know, it can happen to people who aren't dressed suggestively. The chances of it happening if you ARE dressed that way therefore increase greatly.

WHY would any woman want to walk around dressed in such a suggestive manner in the first place? It's always puzzled me. Is it purely because they're so brainwashed that they'll follow any fashion going? Or do they really want to be so arrogant that they think they should be able to dress and behave however they want and remain completely untouchable?

IF you lead someone on, then cry wolf and it goes wrong, horribly so, then you have to take some responsibility for putting yourself into a highly dangerous situation in the first place. No, it is not your fault that someone may rape you, that is their decision and the line they choose to cross, but by behaving crudely, dressing provocatively and drinking to excess you ARE putting yourself in the frontline of danger.

Tell me, would you put your hand on a handle that said "Danger of Death, 350,000 vaults!" then say, but I *wanted* to put my hand there, it was my *right*!"   No, you knew the risks and wouldn't dream of putting your hand on there...


But we should be teaching our young women to stay as safe as they can, to behave in a responsible fashion.

Alternatively, we can carry on as we are, encourage our young women to drink themselves senseless, be crude, dress like hookers, lead men on, then turn around and slap in the face when things get out of hand....but is that any way for women to get men to have respect for them?

Don't get me wrong, rape is inexcusable, I absolutely agree with that...and my punishment for rapists who deliberately set out to prowl the streets searching for their victims cannot even be put down on this page.

But this modern day attitude of 'it's my right to behave however I want and men can't touch me for it!' needs to be looked at in far more depth.

No, I don't hate women...but I hate what has happened to them. I hate how they've allowed it to happen because this is not what equality is about.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 04:28 AM

The majority of Muslim women have respect for their bodies, for themselves. This is however changing as more and more young British Muslim women want to dress as their friends do, and I'd imagine it's a constant source of anxiety to their parents.


Whatever made you think that I'd imagine they'd go from Burkhas to Bras?

Whatever made you think that I'd imagine that Muslim women would start walking the streets with thongs hanging out above their jeans, or boobs pushed up to their eyebrows, using suggestive language and eyeing every man up and down in the most appalling 'ladette' fashion, whilst swigging from a wine bottle, or two?

You can dress beautifully as a woman you know, without showing your cleavage and bum.

Afghan women should have the choice of being free to do exactly that....and if they want to dress in a slightly more modern fashion then yes, they should be free to do that too, but if they suddenly start dressing like sluts, then they have to take on the same responsibility as western women should be doing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: goatfell
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 04:45 AM

it takes two


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 04:56 AM

I am in wholehearted agreement with the no means no lobby and there is no excuse whatsoever for rape. I would like to hear views on the following scenario. Young couple meet in the disco. They are attracted. Both have too much to drink and end up having sexual intercourse. Neither can remember much about it and neither knows with any certaintly if either of them said yes. OK - I know it is a real corner case and may or may not ever happen. But in that case did a rape occur and if so, who raped who?

DeG


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 05:02 AM

"The chances of it happening if you ARE dressed that way therefore increase greatly."

Where is your evidence of this? Emma B presented research earlier in the thread which demonstrates that dressing "provocatively" is not linked to the majority of rape cases.

"WHY would any woman want to walk around dressed in such a suggestive manner in the first place? It's always puzzled me."

Well, many people might wonder why you wear face glitter and all that eyeliner and twirl around suggestively in front of bands when everyone else is sitting down and watching a concert, but is it their place to judge you? Some people would consider that behaviour to be sexually provocative, attention-seeking and inappropriate. Does that mean any man has the right to decide that your behaviour implies that you are cheap and sexually available, and that you deserve to be raped? Of course not. But for someone who always screeches about their personal freedoms, you are terrible for wanting to curtail the freedoms of others.

This idea that your generation never dressed in a provocative way is ridiculous as well. Everything is relative. I'm sure your mother (or her friends) probably thought girls walking around in miniskirts in the 60s looked like prostitutes. Standards and fashions change through the generations, and what is acceptable in one generation is beyond the pale for another (usually older) one. Twas always thus. I don't particularly like seeing half-naked girls in town centres, but I worry more about them catching their death than provoking a man to rape them - and if they were attacked, I certainly wouldn't think they had brought it upon themselves simply for dressing the way they do.

And if we're collecting statistics re abuse, you can add me. I don't really want to go into the details of what happened to me here, but I can assure you that, as a 12 year old, I was neither dressed provocatively nor inviting assault. nevertheless, it took me more than 20 years to finally accept that what had happened to me WAS NOT MY FAULT, IN ANY WAY. Women who are attacked or abused often spend many years trying to figure out what they could have done to prevent what happened to them, and trying not to feel somehow guilty or complicit. The last thing we need is some bitter, gum-sucking old bat telling us how men get such a bad deal these days, and women bring everything upon themselves. Screw you, Lizzie.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Emma B
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 05:55 AM

"rapists who deliberately set out to prowl the streets searching for their victims"

Lizzie I too am coming to the belief that you don't live in just some alternative world but are actually from another planet entirely

While 'stranger rape' does occur the majority of women are likely to be raped by someone they are acquainted with

For someone who invents their own mythical past maybe you are unaware of the attention that has been focused on the issue of 'acquaintance rape' which has emerged as part of the growing willingness to acknowledge and address issues associated with domestic violence and the rights of women in general in the past 30 years and are ignorant of the scholarly research done by psychologist Mary Koss and her colleagues which is widely recognized as the primary impetus for raising awareness.

The results of Koss' research were the basis of the book by Robin Warshaw, first published in 1988, entitled 'I Never Called it Rape'.


An attempt to address David's question of 04:56 AM also demands examining important legal decisions and changes in legal definitions of rape.

For example -
'Until recently, clear physical resistance was a requirement for a rape conviction in California.
A 1990 amendment now defines rape as sexual intercourse "where it is accomplished against a person's will by means of force, violence, duress, menace, or fear of immediate and unlawful bodily injury."
The important additions are "menace" and "duress," as they include consideration of verbal threats and implied threat of force

In addition, a prior or current relationship between the victim and the accused is not sufficient to imply consent. Most states also have provisions which prohibit the use of drugs and/or alcohol to incapacitate a victim, rendering the victim unable to deny consent.'

So, 'acquaintance rape' remains a controversial topic because of lack of agreement upon the definition of 'consent.'


David G. Curtis, Ph.D., B.C.E.T.S. writing on 'Social Perspectives on Acquaintance Rape' for the American Academy of Experts in Traumatic Stress states

"Views on acquaintance rape also appear quite capable of creating opposing camps. Despite the violent nature of acquaintance rape, the belief that many victims are actually willing, consenting participants is held by both men and women alike.
"Blaming the victim" seems to be an all too prevalent reaction to acquaintance rape. Prominent authors have espoused this idea in editorial pages, Sunday Magazine sections, and popular journal articles.
It has also been implied that a natural state of aggression between men and women is normal, and that any woman who would go back to a man's apartment after a date is "an idiot."
While there may be a certain degree of cautionary wisdom in the latter part of this statement, such views have been criticized for being overly simplistic and for simply submitting to the problem."

The whole article
is well worth reading but to pick out just a couple more conclusions

"Being in familiar surroundings does not provide security. Most acquaintance rapes take place in either the victim's or the assailant's home, apartment, or dormitory."

"It is often expressed that direct and indirect messages given to boys and young men by our culture about what it means to male (dominant, aggressive, uncompromising) contribute to creating a mindset which is accepting of sexually aggressive behavior……
Buying into stereotypical attitudes regarding sex roles tends to be associated with justification of intercourse under any circumstances"

Koss's study of acquaintance rape on campus found taking drugs or alcohol is commonly associated with sexual aggression and, of the men who were identified as having committed acquaintance rape, 75 percent had taken drugs or alcohol just prior to the rape


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 07:25 AM

Fortunately the English law is somewhat more forward looking.

And although I am surprised to see that Lizzie has forgotten her hormones (no pun intended) it is surely obvious that most people want to be attractive to their preferred gender, and frequently dress and behave to maximise the choice of offers that they may choose to accept.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 07:38 AM

Any answer to the question I posed, Richard?

DeG


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Royston
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 07:49 AM

MtheGM, there is only one place on earth where women are compelled to cover as you describe, and that is Sordid Arabia. Population affected: about 21m (men and women) So that's a fringe activity. They are not compelled by law to wear the Burkha, but I would accept that the cultural compulsion is difficult for most to resist.

Lizzie was actually damning all Muslims for their beliefs about modesty (beliefs that apply in large part to male dress and appearance), and here we find her arguing the opposing view.

It needs to be pointed out 'cos any minute now she will start saying that we are terribly unfair for not taking seriously anything she says. There are good reasons for our incredulity.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Emma B
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 08:04 AM

Above I quoted from Perspectives on Acquaintance Rape

"Blaming the victim" seems to be an all too prevalent reaction to acquaintance rape. Prominent authors have espoused this idea in editorial pages, Sunday Magazine sections, and popular journal articles."


For an extreme example of how the 'popular press', informs the views of people who read no further than the headlines and then ram their ill informed opinions down others throats, consider the following from last July.

The headline in the Telegraph read

"Women who dress provocatively more likely to be raped, claim scientists."

What was the truth behind this claim…….?

For starters the actual title of the press release for the same research was -

"Promiscuous men more likely to rape."

Ben Goldacre the author of the Bad Science website rang Sophia Shaw at the University of Leicester.

She was surprised to have been presented as an 'expert scientist' on the pages of the Daily Telegraph, as she is an MSc student, and this was her dissertation project.
Also it was not finished. "My findings are very preliminary," she said.
She had been discussing her dissertation at an academic conference when the British Psychological Society's PR team picked it up, and put out the press release

During the interview Goldacre was told that, every single one of the first four statements made by the Telegraph was an unambiguous, incorrect, misrepresentation of her findings.

Women who drink alcohol, wear short skirts and are outgoing are more likely to be raped?
"This is completely inaccurate," Shaw said. "We found no difference whatsoever.

The alcohol thing is also completely wrong: if anything, we found that men reported they were willing to go further with women who are completely sober."

She also added that
"We have found that people will go slightly further with women who are provocatively dressed, but this result is not statistically significant.
Basically you can't say that's an effect, it could easily be the play of chance.
I told the journalist it isn't one of our main findings, you can't say that.
It's not significant, which is why we're not reporting it in our main analysis."

Goldacre concludes that

"In any situation this type of coverage would be ridiculous, but with a sensitive subject such as rape, it is blind, irresponsible foolishness."


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: jeddy
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 08:13 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3i47NAtcxEc

have a listen, then tell me, you are talking bollocks lizzie.
by the way, i think this is also very funny.
jade x


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 08:18 AM

I'll confess to have not read this entire thread but...

..."rape", to me, is a violent act peretrated on someone against their will...

That may not define every sexual act known to mankind but if it is "against their will", it's rape and therefore...

...never justified...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Revelations
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 08:24 AM

I have spoken about being raped on this forum before. It was forty years ago and with professional help I got past the worst of the PTS. Several women from this forum have shared their experiences with me - two of us were attacked by strangers. The rest by people they knew. None was parading around like a whore or dressed suggestively. Again -the statistics show that most rapes occur in the home with the perpetrator known to the victim.

I haven't a clue where LC gets her facts. I suspect she doesn't either.

SINS, a Guest, not sure why.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Emma B
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 09:07 AM

Sinsull, Lizzie gets her 'facts' from misleading 'shock' headlines, misrepresentations and bad or pseudo 'pop science'

Far from thinking 'outside the box' she thinks no further than this.

To perpetuate such false claims in a forum is, like the journalist who exposed this abuse of research* said, with a sensitive subject such as rape, nothing less than ....

"blind, irresponsible foolishness."

* the one I quoted at 16 Feb 10 - 08:04 AM


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 09:33 AM

Royston - I take much of your point: but the t-shirt I quoted is one I actually saw a girl wearing quite recently — as best I recall, the full details were: on front, "I've Been Such A Naughty Girl" ~ on back, "... So Please Spank My Bare Bottom", with downward arrow pointing to the visible top of bum-cleavage. Whatever anybody sez ~ I don't think it wise for a young woman to disport herself thus clad.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: jeddy
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 09:53 AM

while it might be aceptable for a friend to come up and smack her bum, it is not ok for a stranger to.

although it is clearly an invite, it is not literal, open to everyone.
it is meant to be cheeky.

the same with thong straps, i always get an urge to go and ping them, no matter who it is wearing them.
it is one thing to get an urge or an idea, the worrying point comes when someone acts on it.
i am with whoever said, i don't like lasses wearing skimpy clothes, not for their saftey, but for their health, they must be feezing!!!
it all comes to personal responsibility and self control. yes people need to be aware of any danger, but, as others have said, just because someone has made a mistake in judgment, does not give anyone the right to take advantage.
there is no blame to the victims or rape. we did not choose it, or invite it. men are just as the rest of us capable of self control.

i do agree with one point of lizzies'. there are decent men out there who are outraged at this crime.

my word that hurt to say :)
x x


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 09:57 AM

I really do not need the kind of protection that Lizzie seems to offering us poor undertrod men but I think that our children need saving from the kind of nonsense that she seems to believe.

If you choose to dress like a whore, then you'll be viewed as one.

Does that mean that if you dress in the afore mentioned manner you will be paid for sex in a business like manner or does it mean that if you are a whore you deserve to be raped?

We seem to be educating them almost to tease, to dress like any rapists fantasy

Surely to dress like a rapists fantasy you would need to be meek and subdued, not bold and forward. Besides if every girl dresses in your prescribed manner what are us poor blokes who, by your own admission, are not all rapists, going to oggle at?

If you lead someone on to believe that you want something, are 'gagging' for it, then change your mind at the last moment, chances are, you're going to get a reaction you may not like.

So, if I was to come to your house, offer you thousands of pounds, wave a few crisp twenties under you nose, take you to the bank, draw out all the money, let you see it and then... Change my mind. You would be justified in robbing me with violence? I would like to see that stand up in court.

I coukd say that this is just plain nonsense but it is worse than that. It is downright dangerous. What if anyone reading this stuff had just undergone the trauma of a sexual assault and decided against reporting it because they felt they had dressed like a whore, indulged someone elses fantasies or led them on? What if because they decided to not involve the police someone else got attacked?

I do believe in freedom of speech but this really is shouting fire in a crowded theatre. I feel it should be stopped before any harm is done.


DeG


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: SINSULL
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 10:00 AM

On a slightly different tack: a neighbor's sone at twenty met a girl in a bar, took her home and had sex with her. Though she looked at least twenty, it turned out she was fifteen. Her parents had him arrested for rape. The girl was a willing participant.
He pled guilty to avoid jail time and now has to register as a sexual predator where ever he goes. When I moved into this house the first piece of mail I received was from the police that I was living next door to a rapist.
He is a nice kid just very foolish. His parents bear the brand as well.
o me, this is wrong.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: SINSULL
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 10:01 AM

To me...


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 10:08 AM

So, if I was to come to your house, offer you thousands of pounds, wave a few crisp twenties under you nose, take you to the bank, draw out all the money, let you see it and then... Change my mind. You would be justified in robbing me with violence? I would like to see that stand up in court ===

But the point surely, DeG, is that YOU WOULDN'T; or if you did you would be fucking silly becoz you would be behaving with unutterable rudeness & making yourself an enemy into the bargain; so why TF would you? Even if not robbed with violence, you would be asking for a spit in the eye & never to be spoken to again.

I'm sorry ~ but that was a fatuous comparison ~ just was not an intelligent man's "What if" or "Just supposing"!


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 10:16 AM

okay, MtheGM: say you were quite poor, and someone came driving down your street in a big, flash SUV. Say they got out, dressed to the nines, and paraded themselves down your street. Say they were being really flash with their cash, knowing they were minted and flaunting it.

Would you be justified in mugging them? Twocking their car? Brutally assaulting them and taking all their cash? Have they "asked for it" through their behaviour? Would society say that this was acceptable behaviour in any circumstance? So why is it very obviously a crime if it comes to a woman's possessions, but not when it comes to her body?


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 10:20 AM

Agreed MtheGM - I would indeed be asking for a spit in the eye. And if a spit in the eye was all we were talking about then fine - I would agree. But we are not talking spit in the eye. We are talking violent demeaning crime. The comaparison between waving money about and flashing your knickers well may be factious (Although I thought it was quite good on the spur of the moment - I'm hurt!) but the comparison of the end result is not. No matter what you have done to lead people on you do not deserve to blamed for the crime commited against you.

DeG


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 10:25 AM

No, Ruth ~ & that, unlike DeG's, is a reasonable point. I didn't say his putative robbery with violence would be justified: just that his scenario was counter-productively unconvincing & ill-conceived.

In yours, mind you, tho I wouldn't be justified in assaulting, twocking, &c ~ nevertheless I would be thoroughly justified in accusing them of filthy manners. The young woman in the t-shirt deserved a spanking [or at least a virtual one: to judge by the fact that she had chosen to wear the stupid thing, she would probably have welcomed a real one!] for that, it seems to me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 10:27 AM

Sorry you were hurt Dave ~ but even on spur-of-moment I bet you could do better with a bit of thought.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 10:38 AM

" nevertheless I would be thoroughly justified in accusing them of filthy manners."

As Del G say: if all we're talking about is you expressing your disapproval of someone's clothes or manners, fine. Personally, I don't think I would ever find myself on a position where I thought that a stranger's clothes were so offensive that they would ever provoke me to confront them, but in itself that's not a crime. But saying that a girl wearing the t-shirt you describe "deserved" some sort of punishment, spanking or otherwise, makes me uncomfortable.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 10:40 AM

But why should I be blamed for my lack of thought when it is obviously you that is hurting me? Is it my fault that I am stupid? I think not...

(Sorry for the flippancy in such a serious subject but some things I just cannot resist:-) )

DeG


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 10:44 AM

Tons on here I'm skippping past to answer Bill D from way up there:

Erica Jong wrote about the "zippless fuck" in her book Fear of Flying, that fantasy you described, of being "taken." But when the opportunity arose in a train car during European travels, she found it totally revolting and kicked the anonymous member of this fantasy out on his arse.

I like her well-articulated views on a lot of things sexual. She also remarked, in a radio interview I heard a few years ago, that if she looked at pornography for 10 minutes, she wanted to have sex, but if she looked at pornography for 20 minutes, she never wanted to have sex again.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 10:48 AM

Well, that is a fair opinion and I am sorry to have made you feel even uncomfortable. But do you not agree that it was a peculiarly provocatively ill-mannered way to go on? I can see where it might be intended humorously; but do you think it was funny, and in no circumstances likely to be misunderstood and have unfortunate consequence (which is, after all, is it not?, the point of this thread)? I would not have thought of 'confronting' her; but when I spoke of a 'virtual spanking', I meant some sort of advice from someone whose good opinion she might have valued, accepted without too much resentment on her part. If only...


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: jeddy
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 10:52 AM

DeG, yes it is a very serious subject, but humour is necessary.
it might just be me, but being flipant just shows it is humans we are talking about with emotions, not objects or possessions(?).

you are being flippant in a way that does not offend and makes me smile. lizzie is being flippant in a way that hurts others and makes them feel judged.

ake, i would really like to hear from you. has the analogy i used before, made any sense to you?

take care all
jade x x x x x


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 10:57 AM

Thanks, Jade - That really does mean a lot to me and it is much appreciated.

Cheers

Dave


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: mauvepink
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 11:04 AM

If someome looks like a slut or a hooker what is the problem? The inference on the way those terms are used perjoratively is palin to see. Moralising the way women dress says more about you than them.

Are so called sluts and hookers some kind of sub-species? They are still women and many do society a valuable service. Stop denigrating them with your own morals and using them as bad examples. So they sell sex or even give it away... they do not deserve rape as a punishment for other's moralising.

I also suspect that women - a great many - often wake up the next morning with regrets for how the night went before them. We were all young once. Some are still young now. The problem is not the dress. It's rapist.

Get the priorities right on the morals

mp


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 11:09 AM

"But do you not agree that it was a peculiarly provocatively ill-mannered way to go on? I can see where it might be intended humorously; but do you think it was funny, and in no circumstances likely to be misunderstood and have unfortunate consequence"

I think I would see it as a very cheeky thing to wear, and no, it doesn't fill me with joy to see young women sexually objectifying themselves. There are lots of cans of worms here, and not all 21st century feminists agree whether pornography, soft-porn, lad's mags, burlesque, page 3, lap-dancing, pole-dancing etc are empowering or undermining to women. I am definitely of the latter opinion, and I think it's extremely sad that we live in a society which encourages young women to define themselves through their sexuality - and keep in mind that I am the mother of a 16 year old girl, and I also work regularly in secondary schools, so I see the impact at quite close quarter on a day to day basis.

These girls are not making decisions in isolation - there are all sorts of factors in our society which have led us to this point. The normalisation of pornography has saddened me greatly, and I do think it is directly linked to the way that young women now dress in town centres on a Saturday night. But the notion that this is something to do with "girl power" and that these young women are solely responsible for some of their less than responsible choices pretty much lets us, as a society, off the hook. They are being manipulated through the marketplace into defining themselves through their sexuality and their physical assets, and if their physical assets are less than "perfect", they are encouraged to go to a doctor and ask him to mutilate their bodies by hoovering out a bit here and sticking in another bit there. This is now normal. And we are the ones who have stood by while it happened.

The industries that have created this culture, from lad's mags and tabloid newspapers to the fashion industry, are not run by naive, 18- or 20-year-old women; they are run by utterly mercinary old men whose only concern is turning a profit, and who are simply applying the age-old adage that sex sells.

What these girls wear may sometimes be shocking to people of our respective generations, but it is completely normal to them. I think that, instead of damning them for their choices and saying that it's pretty much understandable if they get raped, we ought to be addressing some of the more distateful trends in our society which are completely market-driven, and about which the average trollied babe out on the razz on a Saturday night hasn't a fucking clue.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: SINSULL
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 11:17 AM

I believe some here have never seen the site with candid photos of shoppers at Walmart. That girl's attire is moderate by these standards.The expression "trailor park trash" comes to mind. Tacky but not an invitation to rape.
And before anyone is offended, I do not believe that living in a trailor means one is trash. I am referring to the stereotype depicted on My Name Is Earl. Earl is to trailor park dwellers as Donald Trump is to the average businessman.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: mauvepink
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 11:21 AM

DeG asks... "I am in wholehearted agreement with the no means no lobby and there is no excuse whatsoever for rape. I would like to hear views on the following scenario. Young couple meet in the disco. They are attracted. Both have too much to drink and end up having sexual intercourse. Neither can remember much about it and neither knows with any certaintly if either of them said yes. OK - I know it is a real corner case and may or may not ever happen. But in that case did a rape occur and if so, who raped who?"

I guess that would depend if either party felt something wrong had gone on without their full consent or against express wishes. I dare say it happens and both decide to be adult about it and let it go. Where no force can be proven I suspect too that no case can be made. This is one that the CPS may not go for if it came up as a complaint.

mp


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 11:26 AM

"Well, many people might wonder why you wear face glitter and all that eyeliner and twirl around suggestively in front of bands when everyone else is sitting down and watching a concert, but is it their place to judge you?"

Blimey, I had no idea I twirled around,let alone suggestively! LOL

And you have this evidence from where, exactly? I'm only askin' 'cos apart from being dragged to the mosh pit in an Oysterband gig, by their lovely fans, I've never stood in front of any band and twirled, much less 'suggestively'. I mean, corks, have you SEEN my figure?! Since when was Pooh Bear 'suggestive' ? ;0)   Get a life, Joan and stop spouting outright lies, there's a good girl. Thanks.

Oh heck, so much hurt and hatred in this thread...and apparently I'm responsible for it all. Sorry, I don't accept that responsibility because over and again I've stated that rape is wrong, inexcusable.

However...and the women won't like this one, but I'm sorry, someone has to say it...However, if you are, as jade suggested, naked on the street, almost calling out for sex, and then you change your mind when some man steps forward to oblige, well, you don't have my sympathy I'm afraid, because you're a fool to put yourself into the position in the first place, let alone a selfish prat to put a man into that position.

But before I go, just tell me this. Do men have *any* rights? I hear, all the time, how women MUST be allowed to do whatever they want, dress however they want, behave however they want...but what I don't hear is how that behaviour affects men.

Has the world become ONLY about Women's Rights?

I am NOT talking about women, who, through absolutely no fault of their own, were raped. Nor am I talking about children, for heaven's sake...and for anyone to think that I would condone either of those situations being correct from the rapist's point of view fills me with revulsion and disbelief.

But in talking about the female population, in particular the younger generations (from 40 downwards) I feel they've become incredibly selfish and filled with their own self importance.

It is WRONG to lead men on. It always has been. And if, because you have chosen to do that, you get something happening to you that you never wanted, then you should be grown up enough to recognise that if you blatantly give out the message that you want sex (what happened to Love?) then change your mind at the last moment, you are putting yourself in a very stupid, and sometimes dangerous situation.

Yes, the man makes the final decision as to what happens there, if he dares to cross that line, but the fact is, that line should not have been laid down in the first place if you did not want it to go further.

Maybe some women need to stop and think far more deeply and remember that this world is filled with men too, who also have rights and one of those rights is that they too should be treated with respect and honesty.

The onus should be as much on the woman and *her* behaviour as it is on the man and his.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 11:40 AM

But men DO have the same rights as women, Lizzie. In just the same way that white people have the same rights as black people, christains have the same rights as Moslems and hetrosexuals have the same rights as homosexuals. It is EQUAL opportunities.

I can walk down the street in a skimpy T-shirt and showing my underwear if I wish. Although in my case it would be more a case of people wanting to through up than rape me... More seriously, I can go to a police station and accuse another person of assault or even, heaven forbid, rape, and I will be taken as seriously as anyone else.

The onus is not as much on the woman as the man. She is committing NO crime at all. She is doing no harm to anyone by dressing or behaving provocatively. Plase stop suggesting that any rape is in any way shape or form the victims fault.

DeG


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 11:45 AM

And what of the cases where men have been wrongfully accused of rape and had their whole lives implode because of it? Is that not as devastating as what happens to a rape victim, but in a very different way....

BBC News - Men Wrongfully Accused of Rape

One of my friends had a husband who was wrongfully accused of having a relationship with one of his young pupils, at school. The accuser was the young girl herself. Her allegations were later proved false.

Paul was a history teacher, one of the nicest men you could ever wish to meet.

He hanged himself months later, from a tree, in Horrabridge, in a small clearing, just where the woods met the moorland. He'd left notes for the police, his family..he just couldn't cope with what had been thrown at him, the terrible lies.


So, you see, men DO have rights too. They have a right to never be accused wrongly. They have many other rights too, just as women do, but somewhere, those rights have become lost amongst the occasionally putrid lake of feminism which teaches women that they, and ONLY they are what is important in this world.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: GUEST,Llizzie Cornish
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 11:48 AM

They also have a right to have their names withheld from the media, until the allegations against them are found to be true or not. I don't think, at the present time, that happens. I'm sure Richard will tell us where the law stands.

A woman who says she has been raped has automatic anonymity granted, but this is not so for those who have been accused...

Is that correct, Richard? Or has the law now been changed?


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: mauvepink
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 11:53 AM

"Maybe some women need to stop and think far more deeply and remember that this world is filled with men too, who also have rights and one of those rights is that they too should be treated with respect and honesty.

The onus should be as much on the woman and *her* behaviour as it is on the man and his. "

Men have always had rights. No-one here is saying women should have more rights than men or that they should expect them. What is being asked for here is that *some* take charge of their willies and keep them under control. A man who predates on a woman who is drunk, who he knows he would have no chance with if she were sober, is not showing respect and he certainly has none for himself.

I quite agree with a lot you say Lizzie about women making a show of themselves by being drunk and lewd. But I maintain women can wear what they want and should be able to do so. It is their expression and if certain types of men see that as a contract to sex then they are being fools.

Most men are noit like that in any way, and many find drunken, loud mouthed, women unattractive. Rigghtly so. But no matter what signals the women make it still gives no implied right to sex. The men also have choices there. Walk away or risk a rape charge. To some their dumbsticks run their lives but most men are not in any way so low as to predate a woman who is obviously not in control.

So, if a woman is behaving badly, there is still no reason why a man cannot be chivalrous. Most I know are and would be. I am not a great lover of ladette behaviour myself but I will still not apportion blame to anyone who gets raped.

Rape is rape... the fault is the rapists NOT the victim

mp


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 11:53 AM

I am sorry Dave ~ but I think that is a gross over-simplification. She IS doing harm by dressing or behaving 'provocatively' if she doesn't intend to put out: she is committing a gross breach of manners ~ or to put it more simply, being fucking rude ~ in appearing to offer more than she is prepared to grant. YOU use the word 'provocatively' ~ you must know {I am sure Richard will back me up on this} that there are some breaches of the law where 'provocation' can be admitted as a mitigating factor even to an admitted offence. If the young woman whose Please·Spank·My·Bare·Bum t-shirt I described above had got a good ringing smack across her behind from a passing stranger, I can't see she would have had all that much to complain of: &, if charged, surely he could have claimed a degree of 'provocation' as part of his defence — she would have ~ LITERALLY ~ asked for it. Where is the 'provocation' {I reiterate, a word you yourself are happy to be employing here} line to be drawn?


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: mauvepink
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 11:57 AM

"So, you see, men DO have rights too. They have a right to never be accused wrongly"

What a sad tale...

And Lizzie, far earlier in the thread I made mention of false accusers, that they should do the time that would have been given to the rapists had it happened. It is inexcusable and unforgiveable.

Sadly it happens a lot :-(

mp


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 12:03 PM

"But no matter what signals the women make it still gives no implied right to sex. The men also have choices there. Walk away or risk a rape charge."


Geez, thank god I'm a woman, because to be a man these days must be absolute hell!

So let me get this right...a woman can do, say, dress, behave, be sexually explicit and implicit in WHATEVER way she so chooses, but if a man reads the signs wrong and thinks she's 'up for it' to coin a romantic term, or 'gagging for a shagging' to coin an even more romantic term, then he's totally in the wrong, whilst SHE is totally in the RIGHT????

That's crap, imo.

If, as a woman, you're 'asking for it' by your volition, actually there, stark naked, having led a man on in the most explicit way, then I'm sorry, but you DO share some of the responsibility for what happens, because without your leading him on, without you explicit behaviour the man wouldn't be caught up in all of that in the first place....

I am NOT talking of men who deliberately set out to rape, but of men who become totally confused because a woman feels she has the right to string him along, like a toy, then throw him away when she's bored, or when she realises that he actually thought she meant what she said.

The solution is simple. Do NOT lead men on. Do NOT get blindarsed drunk. Do NOT think that the world revolves only around you and no-one else..and BE BLOODY RESPONSIBLE!




And yet again, before I'm accused of it, I am NOT condoning men who deliberately rape totally innocent women.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Royston
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 12:04 PM

Lizzie C, you ought to start a new thread.

We're talking about whether or not women who have been raped, should carry some blame for what happened to them.

A discussion about women who make false accusations of rape, would be an entirely different topic.

As for your last question, about rights, I would echo everything that DeG said. I would add that I am astonished to read these things coming from a woman, however mad and silly you might be. You should be thorougly ashamed of yourself. Again.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: jeddy
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 12:05 PM

ok lizzie, you are never going to see sense, but here goes anyway.

one the one hand you say rape is never acceptable, but then go on to say it is invited and not the mans fault.

remember when you were young and experimenting? you cannot not have a line. that line says what you are comfortable with. when messing around when you are younger, is natural, but what you are saying is by starting any sexual behaviour is an open ivitation for sex.
no matter what.

ok, a silly comparison. at a festie a few years ago. we give people hugs and kisses on the cheek to people we know, when we haven't seen them for a while. one bloke, gave me a kiss, then licked the side of my face.

are you saying i should not have been upset because i had no right to draw 'the line' at a peck and a hug?

as for men having rights, of course they do! how stupid are you to think that i am not as disgusted as you when women make false accusations? it hurts everyone, the accuser, in case anything does happen in the future, the accused, his reputation, his self worth and his trust.
personally i think you are part of the reason society thinks the way it does about rape, you say one one hand it is outragous and barbaric, then justify it by saying that men are 'lead on'.

which is it lizzie?

i know that i shouldn't let you get to me, as you have no basis for thinking the way you do. you have no empathy for how we feel when you say such stupid, contradictory things. however on this subject as anyone might imagine i get rather passionate and will NOT let you make anyone feel bad or guilty for having had such a horrific experiance.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 12:08 PM

Why would you be astonished?

I am the daughter of a man, the sister of a man, the mother of a man.

I have nothing to be ashamed of whatsoever, other than daring to stand up and say that some women are terribly wrong in how they behave.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: mauvepink
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 12:10 PM

"So let me get this right...a woman can do, say, dress, behave, be sexually explicit and implicit in WHATEVER way she so chooses, but if a man reads the signs wrong and thinks she's 'up for it' to coin a romantic term, or 'gagging for a shagging' to coin an even more romantic term, then he's totally in the wrong, whilst SHE is totally in the RIGHT????"

If he can see she is drunk and not aware of her faculties then he should not act on the signals in any way. He really should show sense himself and walk. But some mem's dumbsticks do the walking into trouble all too easily.

I am not saying she is in the right to tease and entice with no will to follow through. I am saying she can change her mind and a drunken mind is very unreliable. Men know that too.

What is not right is that she should get raped for doing as she has. The man knows the difference in this case and maybe what he is risking too. They have a shared responsibility to each other over respect and dinity but beyond that she has a right not to be raped at all (and him for that matters)

mp


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 12:11 PM

Well, Royston, I would NOT echo what DeG said — see my last post, please. And Lizzie is not only talking about false accusations, but is fully engaging with what you state above to be the topic of this thread, & I can't help wondering as to your motives in attacking her for things she is not saying. I know many people find a lot of what she sez irritating; but this bland assumption you appear to be making that anything she sez can therefore be discounted and/or misinterpreted redounds v badly on you IMO. Before going for her again, or coming back at me about this, I would urge you to reread her last post WITH OPEN-MINDED ATTENTION,


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: SINSULL
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 12:15 PM

And that translate into if they are raped it is their fault?
You should be ashamed of yourself, Lizzie. And once again, I will repeat, that statistics do NOT show a correlation between dress and rape.

You said:"Blimey, I had no idea I twirled around,let alone suggestively! LOL "
But by your own admission, if a man was driven to rape by your innocent provocative display you would be partially to blame. No?


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: vectis
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 12:19 PM

To use an analogy here.

Is it OK, when a woman leads a man on and then changes her mind, for him to beat the crap out of her?

Just asking...


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 12:20 PM

WHY am I making you feel bad, jade? READ what I've said, read how many times I've said that innocent women who have been raped through no fault of their own are not who I am talking about here...READ how many times I've said there is no excuse for rape. But sometimes I can understand how it happens, why it happens...and it is never a good reason...

It should never happen, but it does. It always will do, I'm afraid. It has been happening since time began. Yes, we should be doing all we can to turn it around, but women behaving like the worst kind of lager lout is truly NOT helping the situation at all.

If someone licked my face, I'd clobber him.

We are living in scary times...Yesterday I heard three kids talking, two were girls, the other a young lad.."Clare tried to shag me yesterday" he said to the girls, who grinned at each other. They were about 13 years old I'd say. Today I was told that cases of Chlamydia are higher in Torquay than anywhere else in Devon..(nope, haven't checked it out yet, Emma) Kids are having sex younger and younger and younger..


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 12:26 PM

SRS... I am absolutely sure that the young woman who told me of her 'being taken' fantasy did NOT mean just 'any guy who hadn't been told in advance'. I'd bet that all she meant was that IF she was already attracted to him, that would be an exciting format. Knowing her, she would NOT have appreciated an attempt by some stranger in a dark alley. VERY few women would think such a thing was 'exciting'....

What I find bothers me in the thinking and exhortations in the thread are some of the single-minded "this is the way it IS, and there is only one sane attitude to have about ANY situation or individual".
   As I noted above, humans share certain traits with our remote mammalian ancestors. Males of many species DID originally fight each other for mates, and then expect their new mates.... or even 'harems' ...to cooperate. This still happens! Of course, in many species, especially NON-mammalian ones, there is a huge element of he females being choosy and wanting bright feathers first...etc. But in mammalian species, there remains the testosterone-fueled aggressive sexual/power/dominance behavior.
   Now, here we are...the only species which can really reflect on our own behavior, and who have constructed a society where aggressive sex...no matter for what reason.... is counter-productive and a serious problem!
We still HAVE men who can't cope with the frustrations of courtship and rejection, but think they can get what they want (whether for power/dominance OR just plain sex) and defy society to get it!
We KNOW this exists...and we KNOW it needs to be controlled... but 'some' of the ones entrusted with controlling it have a deep embedded sympathy for those who commit the offense! There are posts above recounting instances of rape where 'there just wasn't enough evidence', or 'the woman was judged to have been provocative'.
We KNOW we must get past those attitudes and 1)make it clear to boys, no matter what the situation that this will not be tolerated!, and 2)DEFINE clearly what 'this' is, so that judges & juries can't easily avoid convicting men who go too far.

...and yes, women need to be educated to be realistic about what to expect and how to avoid problems...and how best to respond if a problem develops. Note: I do NOT mean that "women must bear some of the responsibility" if some man refuses to hear "NO!"...I just mean that women need to be aware that some men WILL refuse to hear "NO!" This does not excuse the man! 'Strong urges' are NOT a defense.

Do I think all this finger pointing, name calling and line-in-the-sand drawing will do much good? Ha! I can imagine similar discussions & debates like this still happening hundreds of years from now.... I hope not, but I don't see the basic problem being solved. Maybe there will be 'some' better education and laws and developed, but this 'being human' thing has as many problems as virtues.

Folks...try to see the gray areas in the situation. It is not all clearly defined black & white.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 12:26 PM

Vectis ~ what a silly post! Of course he would not be justified in physical violence. Now here is a question back to you ~ would he be justified in telling her politely but firmly that she had behaved unacceptably? Or in calling her a mildish pejorative zoological name, like 'cow', say, or 'bitch'? Or what. I mean, in the 'just suppose' scenario you have postulated & then gone on fatuously to hyperbolise the possible response, what would YOU consider justified?

Just asking.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Royston
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 12:32 PM

I read everything with an open mind MtheGM.

Lizzie is arguing that there are some circumstances in which a woman deserves to get raped.

She is stupid, you are stupid if you agree to that proposition.

There are some issues that do not have to be seen in shades of grey or seen as being nuanced. This is one such issue. It is utterly black and white. No, means No. Even if yes has been said and the act of sexual congress is under way, No means No and Stop means Stop. Simple as that. no equivocation.

Now if you say that that a woman who dresses in that "slap my bum" (with an arrow to her bum) T shirt is probably asking for a male (or female) contemporary to slap her bum, smile and make a flattering (or lewd, but playful) comment. Then, yes, I would agree with you.

But that is not what is being said. You, certainly Lizzie, are saying that a woman in that situation deserves a full-on sexual assualt / rape. That is outrageous, deeply stupid.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 12:37 PM

"Lizzie is arguing that there are some circumstances in which a woman deserves to get raped."

You said that, not me...actually. Do NOT put words like that in my mouth. Thank you.

"You, certainly Lizzie, are saying that a woman in that situation deserves a full-on sexual assualt / rape. That is outrageous, deeply stupid."

No, I said that a woman should take some of the responsibility for what can happen if she leads a man on and on and on, only to say she's changed her mind, like some kind of joke...

You obviously think it's just fine for her to behave however she wants, and to hell with everyone else. I'm saying it's not.

THAT is what I am saying.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: mauvepink
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 12:37 PM

I think Vectis may have been proving a point by irony...

Of course it would not be right to hit her. And if it's not right to hit her then why is it right to rape her? Or, if not right, somehow more acceptable and less reprehensible?

That is how I read his post... by making a stupid suggestion he illustrates the main point quite well

mp


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: jeddy
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 12:37 PM

lizzie said "If someone licked my face, I'd clobber him."

you see lizzie, there are always certain lines that should not be crossed.
had i have been comfortable with it, it wouldn't have been a problem. all you need to do now, is put in sex instead of licking your face and you are there, it is happening. telling him no, you don't want it. you try and stop it, but he is too strong and heavy.

i am sorry for the description. if it brings back memories or upsets anyone. but these are the basics of rape. lizzie needs to hear this to try and understand how horrendous it actually is. this is not just words on a screen for alot of us, it is real.


i have been thinking about why alot of younger girls and women dress the way they do. it is all for self esteem. it is the only way they know to make themselves feel validated and worthwhile.
the difference is the intention. most go out and love it when they get eyed up or whistled at, it makes them feel good. however that does not translate into they are gagging for it.

it is one thing for a lad to yell (vulgur, yes, but not hurting anyone)
'get ya tits out'
it is a different thing for them to walk over and lift your top up to have a look for himself.

the difference is choice! whatever the intention, everyone has the right to only go as far as they feel comfortable. if that means stoppping short of full sex then that is what should be respected.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: SINSULL
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 12:44 PM

"You obviously think it's just fine for her to behave however she wants, and to hell with everyone else. I'm saying it's not."

That is exactly what I am saying. The minute a woman says "No" it is "No".


I am still awaiting a response:

You said:"Blimey, I had no idea I twirled around,let alone suggestively! LOL "
But by your own admission, if a man was driven to rape by your innocent provocative display you would be partially to blame. No?


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: frogprince
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 12:45 PM

I saw this yesterday, when I had not time to post, so some of this goes back aways:

Mauvepink said, "I stay away from the term provocative clothing as I cannot define what that is". Lonesome E.J. replied, "Oh come on", and described a rather extreme example. Neither of them is talking nonsense. No one would say there is no such thing as provocative clothing. But no one, apart from the mentality of the Taliban, would attempt to define a usable exact borderline between stylish attractive dress and the inappropriate.

Don't take me as in any way excusing assault on a woman because of her clothing or lack of clothing. Even complete nudity, in an inappropriate context, is absolutely no justification for rape.

I will say one thing that may bring some wrath on my head. Regarding a woman going to bed with a man, in a manner that would by all reasonable interpretation imply consent: she retains the right to change her mind, and say no; a man who doesn't respect that should not be held blameless. But if she has led him up to the point of intense arousal, and he doesn't stop, I can't see that he should be judged and penalized to the same degree as a man who has set out with the intention of rape.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: vectis
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 12:48 PM

My point is exactly as you have deduced.

Rape must NEVER be confused with sex.

Rape is nothing to do with sex it is a violent assault.

If people think that girls who dress provocatively are in some way to blame for being raped it is the same as saying that girls who dress provocatively are asking to have their faces slashed with a knife.

Assault is wrong whatever the weapon used.

Confusing rape with sex is enabling rapists to walk free from court because juries don't seem to be able to see rape as a violent assault whereas if the victim had been stabbed or beaten up they would have convicted for assault.

This is IMO really the moot point of why rapists walk free.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 01:04 PM

Young women need to respect themselves FIRST, jade. If the only way that they can feel 'validated' is to dress like tarts or porn queens, then my oh my, what a sad world we have created for our women.

And with due respect, I'm 55 years old, I've been around a little longer than you, my sweetheart.

I have people I know who've been raped, molested, as children, (my own mother amongst them) and I know full well they were not in any way to blame. I also know the damage it can cause. It took my mother over 50 years to even talk about it.

Blatant rape is wholly wrong, there is no excuse for it at all, and the men who carry that out should be punished in the most vicious terms, perhaps giving them to the men of the village or the mothers of the victims is a pretty good idea...I am not a lily livered do gooder when it comes to wrong doing, believe you me.

However, I still abide by what I say, and that is that if a girl leads a man on and then finds herself in a situation she doesn't like, she has to bear some of the blame as to why it happened because she should not have done that in the first place. The man is wrong to step over that line. The woman is wrong to put that line down in the first place.

Im sorry for what happened to you, jade....I really am, and I wish it never had. I know only too well that it leaves deep scars, but the best thing you can do is get those scars to heal, not let them become gaping wounds, because then those who caused them have won. I think you're doing a pretty good job..and I think that already you are in charge of your feelings.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 01:05 PM

"Rape must NEVER be confused with sex.

Rape is nothing to do with sex it is a violent assault.
"

Once again, at the risk of being beat over my head with a slogan, this is a generality that is not totally accurate.

Because there are many, many 'violent assults' that do NOT include sex, we must account for those which do.

It IS inexcusable for any man, at any time, to use violence to obtain sex, just as it is inexcusable for anyone to use violence except in response TO violence.
I am sure that men who are serial rapists, or who may never have actually committed rape, but constantly intimidate and sexually harass women, are acting out feeling that go way beyond simple 'sex', but a chanted slogan that "rape is always about power" is way too simplistic. Sex...and the frustrations of how to sublimate it...ARE involved in rape in many cases.
This does not change the fact that violence is not to be tolerated, whether or not it is manifested in sex.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 01:05 PM

Heya Jade, spot on posts.
You're talking lots of sense here, as ever.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: GUEST,Been there
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 01:05 PM

I have not read this But having been there and got the tee shirt as such believe me if you know the person, and lets be fair here it can be man or woman then they normally get away with it 99% of the time.

I knew mine, knew 'him' very well so I thought, but not well enough. I trusted him, we were partners, but still I was brutally raped and abused, but was it my fault, should I have taken some blame. F...... well NO. The law is an ass. Most rapes are committed by a person known to the victim. Remember we are VICTIM.

I don't trust anyone now and most likely never will for a very long time, if ever. My life was ruined, I still have nightmares, still cry in private. I hate myself for letting myself be taken in, I feel enough guilt without being told I should take some blame....

Mine is on police record, he should be behind bars but still is free to commit again and he has since married...... god help his wife.

BT


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: SINSULL
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 01:08 PM

I agree Vectis. Add to it a judicial system (at least here in the US) that prefers to negotiate with violent offenders, plead them down to a lesser charge in order to claim an easy victory, and then act shocked when the offender repeats.

On a different topic, when I was brought pictures of potential suspects for a line up, there was a picture of the local priest. I assumed they put him in to throw me off - if I recognized the face and fingered him, my memories were off and unreliable. I was wrong. This priest had recently been transferred from another parish after he had been found molesting children. A parishioner contacted the local police to warn them he would rape again. Nice...1971.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 01:13 PM

"You obviously think it's just fine for her to behave however she wants, and to hell with everyone else. I'm saying it's not."

That is exactly what I am saying. The minute a woman says "No" it is "No". <<<<<<


And I am saying that a woman should think far more deeply, stop being so bloody selfish, get a grip on reality and behave in a far more moderate and acceptable fashion which does not give out the wrong messages.





"But by your own admission, if a man was driven to rape by your innocent provocative display you would be partially to blame. No?"

I don't behave provocatively, full stop, Mary. I do not dress provocatively, nor move provocatively, nor am I to be found all over men, batting my eyelashes at them. Got that? Good. Do not be led astray by the lies that certain posters put down about me.

I never had, nor ever would behave provocatively in front of a man,unless that man was a man I loved and who loved me, in which case I may move my Pooh Bear little body in the most provocative way imaginable whilst I loved him to bits.

I was known, in the Embassies of Harley Street for being one of the secretaries who NEVER behaved provocatively towards any interpreter, ever. And I had respect for that from them all.

So please treat me with respect for that.

Thank you.



"I will say one thing that may bring some wrath on my head. Regarding a woman going to bed with a man, in a manner that would by all reasonable interpretation imply consent: she retains the right to change her mind, and say no; a man who doesn't respect that should not be held blameless. But if she has led him up to the point of intense arousal, and he doesn't stop, I can't see that he should be judged and penalized to the same degree as a man who has set out with the intention of rape."

I agree.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 01:13 PM

"And with due respect, I'm 55 years old, I've been around a little longer than you, my sweetheart."

Your age has absolutely nothing to do with the topic.
Jade knows rather more about this subject than you do Lzzie, or haven't you been reading her posts?


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Genie
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 01:25 PM

MtGM,
You say the flaunting the cash and then changing your mind scenario wouldn't happen?
Even if it wouldn't, it still illustrates the position of the law on theft. But I don't think it's so far-fetched.
Suppose a rich person gets very drunk, takes someone home and in that inebriated state promises them loads of money, jewels, etc., all of which are there in the house. They both fall asleep and next morning the rich person, now sober, takes back the offer.   
Or suppose the rich person offers a friend or acquaintance some valuables, but then they have a quarrel and the offer is rescinded.    People DO change their minds about offers they make, sometimes at the drop of a hat.   What matters to the law is whether there was or was not consent at the time of the act in question.

[["If you lead someone on to believe that you want something, are 'gagging' for it, then change your mind at the last moment, chances are, you're going to get a reaction you may not like."]]
Perhaps not, but you still have the legal right to change your mind. If I say you can borrow my car Tuesday, but then I remember that I need to have it that day, or there's some other reason I want to change my mind, I'm legally allowed to -- and if you went ahead and took the car after I'd said "no," you could be charged with theft.
If my change of heart was capricious and inconvenienced you, I might get a reputation for being a selfish jerk, but that's not a legal issue.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: SINSULL
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 01:25 PM

The point is Lizzie that some saw your behavior as provocative. If anyone misinterprets your behavior, dress, intentions and acts on their misinterpretation, are you then partially to blame?

A young girl in a tasteless outfit or a middle-aged woman in glitter. Why is either responsible for the resulting assault?

And Sweetheart, I am long past 55. That does not mean a damn thing when it comes to common sense and wisdom.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 01:28 PM

She IS doing harm by dressing or behaving 'provocatively' if she doesn't intend to put out: she is committing a gross breach of manners

Sorry - Bad manners = No harm done. Rape = Lots of harm done. No over-simplifycation. Just plain fact. But just in case let us take a more complex example. Sorry if this has happened to anyone and I sincerley hope I not opening old wounds.

Chantelle goes to the disco - Dressed in the previously described manner. She has a few drinks, wiggles her bottom and flashes her boobs at Wayne, who fancies her like mad. He buys her a couple more drinks and then walks her home. She fancies him as well and gives his tonsils a good bashing with her tongue at the street corner before she says goodnight. It is not enough for him and he says he wants sex. She says no but he will not take no for an answer, drags her down an alley and rapes her.

Really easy question here for anyone - but specificaly for Lizzie and MtheGM. No trick questions. No hidden agenda. Who is responsible for the rape?

DeG


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 01:28 PM

""But by your own admission, if a man was driven to rape by your innocent provocative display you would be partially to blame. No?"

I don't behave provocatively, full stop, Mary. I do not dress provocatively, nor move provocatively"


The point is, one person's innocent dancing might be another's provocation. The point is, should you be held responsible for someone else misinterpreting your behaviour? Because, when a girl dresses in skimpy clothes just like all her mates do, maybe she's not setting out to be sexually provocative, either. You seem to be saying that, if a man decides she issexually available, it's her own fault and she deserves what she gets.

Lots of people do things that some people could interpret as taking really stupid, foolish risks. I knew a woman who met several men on the internet. Because one of the men lived very far away, she invited him to stay - incredibly, she actually had her children in the house when he came. Her friends told her what a stupid thing this was to do, but she insisted that it was okay because they "absolutely knew each other" as a result of their long correspondence. The man turned out to be some sort of predatory nutter, and a very bad situation involving her daughter was only narrowly avoided. Now, many people would think she had behaved incredibly stupidly. But surely no one would say she had provoked, or worse deserved, the outcome.

Would they?


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 01:31 PM

Royston, DeG, Vectis: I put specific questions to each of you; you have all replied dismissively to me WITHOUT ADDRESSING THESE QUESTIONS.

DeG, you used the word 'provocative', & Royston you declared you agreed with DeG. So I asked you how far you would regard *provocation* as a mitigating factor, as in law, as you know, it CAN be regarded in certain cases. You did not answer this question. Please do so if you wish me to take your answers as in any way complete or to be respected.

Vectis, the same applies to you with regard to my direct question as to what you would regard as an appropriate response to a woman who had irresponsibly led a man on only to let him down at the last moment. I agreed with you that violence was not justified, but made one or two suggestions as to what might be. What do YOU think, I ask again, might be acceptable or permissible responses? May I have an answer to this perfectly explicit question, please?


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Genie
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 01:35 PM

David el Gnomo - [["I would like to hear views on the following scenario. Young couple meet in the disco. They are attracted. Both have too much to drink and end up having sexual intercourse. Neither can remember much about it and neither knows with any certaintly if either of them said yes. OK - I know it is a real corner case and may or may not ever happen. But in that case did a rape occur and if so, who raped who? "]]

I can't see anyone being convicted of rape in this scenario.
However, if I get drunk and go home with a guy and maybe we even have sex eagerly and repeatedly (not rape) but next morning I don't want to have sex with him anymore (because I remember I'm not on the pill, because we're out of condoms, because I'm sore, or just because I no longer have my beer goggles on), my "consent" is not "implied" because of what happened the night before.
If I've been going with a guy for years, even living with him, and I decide I want to break up with him, my consent to continuing sex with him is not implied after I tell him that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 01:41 PM

Sorry M - I was not avoiding your question I just did not notice it amongst the rest of the flak flying! I would not regard ANY ammount of provocation to be mitigation in a rape case. If, and this is a big if, there are any men who, on seeing the exposed flesh of a young woman, cannot control themselves then maybe, just maybe, they should not be charged with rape but should be dealt with under the provisions of some mental health legislation. In either case it is not the victims fault.

Hope that answers your question and enables you to answer mine.

DeG


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 01:42 PM

That sounds very reasonable, Genie. Thanks.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: SINSULL
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 01:43 PM

Thanks, Ruth. I needed help clarifying my point.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: jeddy
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 01:47 PM

"And with due respect, I'm 55 years old, I've been around a little longer than you, my sweetheart."

cor, patronizing much lizzie?
thanks for your pretend concern lizzie, but i can do without it, it was terrible yes, but i am over it and have come to terms. if and when i do think about it, i can see it as part of a bigger picture, something that had to happen to get me where i am now, which is very happy.

yes it is sad when people need that sort of attention to feel good about themselves, but i think you missed the point.
unfortunatly i think you have now reached stubborness. although you still contradict yourself. first you say there should be no line, when in everyday situations and in everything we do there is such a line of personal comfort. then talk about crossing that line.


i notice you didn't answer the question of the show us your tits comment? why, do you need me to expand on that senario?
ok, the girl says ok, goes to lift her shirt but doesn't, then is he allowed to lift it himself, because she has implied that she will but changed her mind?

another question, to everyone. imagine a couple having sex, the woman on top, for some reason the man wants her to stop,he has cramp for example. she doesn't, he has then been forced to carry on. is the woman at fault because she is far too turned on to stop or is he at fault for wanting her to stop, no matter what the reason?

just curious.
i would say as soon as he said stop and she hasn't, it is rape. no matter how far along proceedings it is.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 01:47 PM

At the bottom of all the judgmentalism about women who dress or behave "badly" is the idea of women as property, saving their pearl beyond price for Mr Right and the thought that "Nice Girls don't" (whatever) the "Don't" might be smoke in the street, swear, drink, flirt, dress "provocatively" or not at all, "tease" etc etc.

Wake up and smell the pheromones! Nice girls do if they want to, and nasty ones likewise. And they are entitled not to if they don't want to.

Sending mixed messages, using sex to obtain advantage, or to cause discomfiture, or as part of manipulative behaviour may well be unpleasant and unjustifiable, but they do not amount to a rape victim "getting what she deserved".


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 01:49 PM

There are two separate questions here..

1. Should anyone ever be raped under any circumstances? Does anyone deserve it regardless of behavior? 100% of people here and elsewhere would say no I am pretty sure.

2. Should women dress themselves in a decent manner and advise, scold, and commad young women in their sphere of duty to do likewise? I say yes. I almost followed two very young child teens off the bus yesterday to tell them to put some clothes on..one had shorts on skimpier than my underwear (TMI I know..) and she could not have been over 13. What women do in a public place, like public transportation etc. where there is close contact is very important to the safety and stability of society and we have responsibilities to not act dumb about sex as if we didn't know about it and what provocation is. A 13 or 15 year old probably does not realize what she is doing entirely, and they have to be protected and people have to be protected from their behavior.

Not every filthy drunken man on a public bus is in full command of his brain and body. There are brain-damaged people out there. There are people with all sorts of mental illness and handicaps who are being more and more mainstreamed. Well, guess what..they are on the bus...they are in the taverns etc. And we don't know what the biological breaking point is of other men..those of very low IQ and social status perhaps who are not going to get anything voluntary from anybody.

So put me down as one who thinks women need to go back to what they have generally always done, and that is to dress and act responsibly and see to it that anyone that they can influence is influenced in that direction, rather than telling them they can wear anything and do anything and nothing should happen. Of course they should be able to..I should be able to walk into a yard of pit bulls and not get bitten..I do not deserve to get bitten...but I need to use some sense. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Mrrzy
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 02:04 PM

Remember old Star Trek, and the way the women dressed? They (the women) claimed it was liberating to be able to dress as "provocatively" as they wanted and it was OK, because in that future, men had manners.

That is pretty much how I feel about it. People with manners don't force their attentions on others.

Nowadays you'll hear men talk about how "exploitative" that clothing was...

Plus, there are several major religions that treat the human body as a temptation from the devil or something, and require women to take responsibility for what men think about them. Now, that is really a crock. Nudity is not evil, nor is the female body. Men's thoughts are just that, thoughts, let them have all they want, as long as they have manners (which means understanding that thought isn't action, or permission for action).


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: jeddy
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 02:06 PM

spot on MRRZY!!!!
x x x x x x


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Genie
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 02:11 PM

Mary (and Lizzie), I don't disagree that young girls and even grown women sometimes dress and behave in reckless and teasing ways and that the girls, especially, need educating in that regard. (But teens and pre-teens have never been known for their wisdom and judgment.)

Let's not forget, though, that there are cultures where people wear little or no clothes at all, yet the men aren't allowed to force sex on an unwilling woman or girl.    And being sexually attractive to men isn't necessarily a matter of how tight or skimpy a girl or woman's clothes are.

We don't say women are "asking for it" because they wear bikinis at the beach.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 02:13 PM

Well color me Catholic but I do think women have a responsibility for what men think of them. (this does not translate to approving of rape etc. so don't jump to nutty conclusions). mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: mauvepink
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 02:14 PM

"So put me down as one who thinks women need to go back to what they have generally always done, and that is to dress and act responsibly and see to it that anyone that they can influence is influenced in that direction, rather than telling them they can wear anything and do anything and nothing should happen. Of course they should be able to..I should be able to walk into a yard of pit bulls and not get bitten..I do not deserve to get bitten...but I need to use some sense. mg "

Not a fair cpmparison unless you are saying all men act like pitbulls and women always walk into the pit. All men do not act like pitbulls. Also, pitbulls bite. It is their instinct. Men have instincts - 0f course they do - as do women. Most are able to control theirs.

Women should have free will to wear what they want with no implied consent to 'being up for it'.

Personally I believe it is wrong for a woman to lead a man on but that gives him no right to sex. Have you never ever fancied someone and then found beer breath, a bad comment, halitosis, sweaty socks... and changed your mind on that instant? You can be turned on and horny, but it can go in an instant too. This has to be about actual consent. Once NO is issued... no matter how tough it is on the guy, it should be taken as full withdrawal of consent and his most sensible course of action is to STOP immediately.

WE can harp on about the scenario. Thousands of scenarios are ran through every year. The woman or man has still been raped where no permission is given or consent. It's THAT simple.

Stop making excuses for rapists!

mp


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: SINSULL
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 02:15 PM

Interesting point, Genie. If a woman is lying naked in the sun on a clothing optional beach, is she to blame for provoking a rape?


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Emma B
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 02:16 PM

During the summer I was a member of a jury that considered provocation as a partial defence in a murder trial.

In these circumstances while provocation doesn't mitigate the killing of another individual, the defence does allow the verdict to be 'downgraded' from murder to manslaughter.

Provocation assumes that the emotional state of the accused is a relevant consideration when it comes to assessing the culpability of the accused.

Given that the law assumes that an accused is a rational being (unless, insanity is pleaded) the concept that provocation can justify either rape or murder does seem outdated although it may have served a purpose when capital punishment was still on the statute book


In a paper examining gender bias in rape and sexual assault charges in Japan, Harriet Gray (School of East Asian Studies, University of Sheffield ) writes

"Sexual assault is a notoriously difficult crime to prove in any legal system. It is often perpetrated without any witnesses other than the victim and aggressor, and (especially in the case of rape committed by someone known to the victim) it is necessary to prove something which does not need to be proved in any other crime: lack of consent.

Objective evidence, except in the case of serious physical injury, is often absent, so it is necessary to rely on the testimonies of accuser and defendant.
However, further problems arise in legal systems worldwide from the fact that they are often fraught with systematic gender bias………
……..differentially socialised groups, including men and women, interpret events in different ways.

For example, men are more likely than women to have sexualised perceptions of a given situation, such as believing that a woman is behaving seductively when she thinks she is just being friendly."


It has been argued that because of historical male privilege, the male perspective has come to be considered objective in some cultures; that is, the male point of view is considered to be an objective universal understanding,.

RAPE MYTHS

Rape myths are gender-biased stories, which falsely assert that being a victim is more traumatic for chaste than promiscuous women, and that rape is a sexual act caused when a woman provokes a man into losing control of his powerful innate sexuality.

Such so-called provocation can consist of walking alone at night, wearing revealing clothing, or being promiscuous

Such myths are biased because they are based in a masculine angle on rape and sex rather than the experiences of victims.

Rape myths dictate who qualifies as a true victim. Victims who do not fit into the stereotype of a 'Little Red Riding Hood fairy tale victim: a young, innocent female out doing good deeds who is attacked by an unknown stranger' may be seen as undeserving or may not earn the title 'victim' at all,

The focus on the character and actions of the victim shifts attention from the question of why some people offend to the question of why some people are attacked.
This has the effect of placing blame on the victim, because if they had not been the person that they were, then they would not have become victims


THE MYTH OF MALE WEAKNESS

"Bad male sexual behavior is a consequence of the irresistible temptation that women provide. The myth tells us that we men can't really control our eyes, our speech, our thoughts, or our actions.
Male sexual purity, this theory says, is only possible when women remain covered and chaste

This is offensive to both men and women in that it burdens women with responsibility for male behavior and infantilizes men as creatures unable to exercise self-control.

The myth of uncontrollable male sex drive manages to be both misogynistic and misandrist at the same time -- a pretty neat trick if you think about it!"

From "Men's Rights' by 'a progressive Anabaptist/Episcopalian'

spot on! - some of the comments here are as offensive and demeaning to men as they are to most women.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: vectis
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 02:16 PM

MtheGM

Vectis, the same applies to you with regard to my direct question as to what you would regard as an appropriate response to a woman who had irresponsibly led a man on only to let him down at the last moment. I agreed with you that violence was not justified, but made one or two suggestions as to what might be. What do YOU think, I ask again, might be acceptable or permissible responses? May I have an answer to this perfectly explicit question, please?

The best thing would be to explain that if she did the same thing to a different mant that she could end up provoking him to violence or even rape. If both were a bit drunk then call her a silly prickteaser or whatever comes to mind and then WALK AWAY.
Anything else would put him in the wrong so he would need to be as calm as possible and very self controlled. Yes! He may well be angry, embarrased and upset but he has to accept the situation and make the best of a bad job.

Hope this answers your question.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 02:17 PM

You are dealing with a subgroup of men in any population who probably should be in a protected environment, under constant supervision, because they have no more control than a pit bull, probably for about the same biological reasons. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: mauvepink
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 02:23 PM

Emma B comes up with the goods once again :-)

All men have the capability to rape. Not all men are rapists. We all have the capability to murder. We don't all murder.

Rapists are a different kettle of fish

The responsibilities of rape are firmly upon their shoulders NOT the victim

mp


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 02:31 PM

Some of them have an IQ of 50 and are on crystal meth besides. At some point they are not able to rationalize or control their behavior. I am all for putting them in a happy secure village somewhere but until that day comes we all have to take a share of responsibility. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 02:42 PM

"Well color me Catholic but I do think women have a responsibility for what men think of them. (this does not translate to approving of rape etc. so don't jump to nutty conclusions). mg"

Absolutely agree.


"Have you never ever fancied someone and then found beer breath, a bad comment, halitosis, sweaty socks... and changed your mind on that instant? You can be turned on and horny, but it can go in an instant too. This has to be about actual consent. Once NO is issued... no matter how tough it is on the guy, it should be taken as full withdrawal of consent and his most sensible course of action is to STOP immediately."

Perhaps the woman should learn to stop immediately, before she gets started on winding the man up.

No, I don't do 'sex', I do 'love'. There is not the first, without the second, for me. If a man wanted me for the first alone, then I would think very badly of him. If you want me, then you have to love me. That is the respect I have for myself, and that is the respect I expect from others.

I have felt that way all my life.

I have never seen sex as just a physical act. I see Love as a Spiritual one, as well as a Physical one, so the way that people now hop in and out of bed, or 'shag' up against a wall, with a complete stranger is totally and utterly alien to me.

We have lost the art of Love and replaced it with the cold confusion of sex which seems to me to leave those who participate in it feeling lost, confused and lonely, in the long run.

It is way past time that we brought Love back to our young women, as well as self respect, tenderness and the unwritten rules that once used to surround relationships.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Royston
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 02:47 PM

MtheGM, I thought my point was simple and made simply. I tire of having to make endless allowances for people like you and Lizzie.

There can be no plea of proovocation against a charge of rape.

No means no.

Stop means stop.

No exceptions, no negotiation.

Clear enough?

Taking the "slap my bum" t-shirt example. The worst-case invitation there is that a bum should be slapped. Nothing else. It's that simple.

A woman who dresses "provocatively" for a night out, I would presume, invites admiration and some flattering comments. Maybe some offers of something more for her to consider and either accept/reject. Simple as that.

Lizzie, you horror, you tell us that you believe

"...that a woman should take some of the responsibility for what can happen if she leads a man on and on and on..."

Those are your words.

Tell me in what way that differs substantially from my interpretation of your belief "that in certain circumstances a woman deserves to be raped" - my words. I don't see the difference. Nobody else sees the difference - except maybe MtheGM.

So why don't you clarify...

Do you in fact believe that there is never, ever a reason or justification for the rape of a woman, that a woman can never be held responsible in part or in whole for her rape. That is my position, is it yours? Yes, or no?


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: mauvepink
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 02:49 PM

"No, I don't do 'sex', I do 'love'. There is not the first, without the second, for me. If a man wanted me for the first alone, then I would think very badly of him. If you want me, then you have to love me. That is the respect I have for myself, and that is the respect I expect from others. "

But that is YOU Lizzie and your choice and who you are. Not all are the same.

I know love and I know sex are two very different animals BUT the point I was making is that when it finally gets down to the sex, a woman is free to change her mind and no amount of love will make me think halitosis is acceptable in a sexual situation.... or fagbreath, beerbreath or sweaty socks and such like.

mp


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Lox
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 02:50 PM

First.

Are women who wear short skirts while playing tennis taking a risk?

Are women who wear a bikini by the pool or on the beach taking a risk?

When a woman wears a short skirt to a nightclub, why is this "inviting trouble" more than either of the above?

If a Pakistani man walks through the streets of Glasgow on a friday night is he taking a risk?

If a youth from South East london takes a detour through an East London estate is he taking a risk?


If a black woman refuses to sit at the back of the bus is she taking a risk?


You Fucking bet they all are!


But They have a RIGHT to do it and they bear NO responsibility for the violence of others upon them.


And all those who refuse to compromise in the face of cultural pressure and violence to change them should be applauded.


As long as we pious judges snootily say "she was asking for it", rapists will quote us and use that as their excuse.


So all you straight laced prudes with your projected fantasies and mealy mouthed bitterness can go take a hike.


Responsibility for rape lies 100% with the rapist.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: SINSULL
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 02:52 PM

And "If anyone misinterprets your behavior, dress, intentions and acts on their misinterpretation, are you then partially to blame?"


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 03:02 PM

I think mg has a good point about there being two topics here, although I am not sure of some of the later sentiments. Anyhow - There is the issue of rape. For which there is no excuse. Then there is the issue of taste, for which there is no accounting. Difficult as it may be please try to seperate the two. A young woman's tastes in clothing, or any woman's for that matter, should not even enter into the equation of violence against her. Split the two out and tell us how, in the thread title, some rape victims should take blame.

Lizzie. You did not answer my earlier question although I do note that you have been on the thread since I posted it. MtheGM - as you have not been on the thread I assume you are doing other things. As I am. Sad as it is I am going to watch the Brits to see if I can spot any skimpy clothes...

DeG


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Amos
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 03:08 PM

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - A hormone thought to encourage bonding between mothers and their babies may foster social behavior in some adults with autism, French researchers said on Monday.


They found patients who inhaled the hormone oxytocin paid more attention to expressions when looking at pictures of faces and were more likely to understand social cues in a game simulation, the researchers said in the journal Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.

Angela Sirigu of the Center of Cognitive Neuroscience in Lyon, who led the study, said the hormone has a therapeutic potential in adults as well as in children with autism.

"For instance, if oxytocin is administered early when the diagnosis is made, we can perhaps change very early the impaired social development of autistic patients," Sirigu said in an email.

Sirigu said the study focused on oxytocin because it was known to help breast-feeding mothers bond with their infants and because earlier research has shown that some children with autism have low levels of the hormone.




So maybe instead of pepper spray, gals should carry oxytocin to use against the extremely insensitive....



A


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 03:25 PM

Lox: well said.

Lizzie: once again you are superimposing your own values on the rest of us. Lizzie's Rules for Life (or Lizziana, as Folkiedave would call it). Just because a woman doesn't abide by your moral code and judgements, does not mean she deserves to be raped.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Genie
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 03:27 PM

Mauve Pink [["Personally I believe it is wrong for a woman to lead a man on but that gives him no right to sex. Have you never ever fancied someone and then found beer breath, a bad comment, halitosis, sweaty socks... and changed your mind on that instant? You can be turned on and horny, but it can go in an instant too. This has to be about actual consent. Once NO is issued... no matter how tough it is on the guy, it should be taken as full withdrawal of consent and his most sensible course of action is to STOP immediately."]
Heck, yes!
I mean what if you're about to get it on and he tells you he likes Sarah Palin and Glen Beck!??
*g*


Let's also consider the flip side of the "led him on" issue.   Many times in my life I've had a really attractive, sexy guy flirt outrageously with me, display what seemed to be genuine interest, maybe even dance provocatively with me -- to the point where I was sure he was going to ask me out or the like -- but not follow through.   Maybe he was trying to sell me something. Maybe he was married and just liked to flirt. Maybe that game was some sort of power trip for him. Who knows?   Since men are usually bigger and stronger than I am, I probably couldn't have "forced myself" on him if I'd wanted to. But if I "got him drunk" and took advantage of that, would that be justified because he had been "asking for it?"

Just wondering.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: gnu
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 03:30 PM

Just checking in. I'd say we are gonna make a thousand posts on this thread.

Oh, BTW, my posts still stand... If you put on the gloves and get in the ring and get hit, you are PARTIALLY to blame.

Don't leave the PARTIALLY out. It's part of the premise for the original hypothesis.

Carry on.... I may check in again before post 1000.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 03:39 PM

If you put on the gloves and get in the ring and get hit, you are PARTIALLY to blame.

Sorry gnu but that is a really disingenious (sp?) premise. If you put on the gloves and get in the ring you are giving CONSENT. If you put on the gloves, get in the ring, change you mind and jump over the top rope it doesn't give your opponent the right to follow and beat the shit out of you.


DeG


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: mauvepink
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 03:55 PM

Genie... that is SO pervy. I'll have nightmares now lol

But as for guys leading girls on. Yes it happens and your investment in time with them totally wasted when you could have stayed home and had chocolate, say ;-)

Girls lead girls on too and I am sure some men lead men on. I guess it's part of the human in us.

mp


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 03:57 PM

I think, because I am slow typist, I'd be wise to be like gnu, and just read occasionally, since most of you are too busy nit-picking linguistic fine points of your own viewpoints to even notice I am here. I suspect that my points are too 'unsatisfying' and would take too much effort to digest for those who rely on a "no, they don't!" "yes, they do!" technique of debate.

Further, deponent sayeth not.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: SINSULL
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 04:12 PM

Here you go Bill:
From The American Journal Of Psychiatry.
Rape: power, anger, and sexuality
AN Groth, W Burgess and LL Holmstrom


Accounts from both offenders and victims of what occurs during a rape suggest that issues of power, anger, and sexuality are important in understanding the rapist's behavior. All three issues seem to operate in every rape, but the proportion varies and one issue seems to dominate in each instance. The authors ranked accounts from 133 offenders and 92 victims for the dominant issue and found that the offenses could be categorized as power rape (sexuality used primarily to express power) or anger rape (use of sexuality to express anger). There were no rapes in which sex was the dominant issue; sexuality was always in the service of other, nonsexual needs.


http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/abstract/134/11/1239


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: SINSULL
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 04:15 PM

And another:
http://geshem.bi.org/patternsa.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: gnu
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 04:36 PM

I try to do what Bill said, but... David el Gnomo. That was a low blow.

In a ring, there are rules. I a bed, no. So, if you get in a bed without a referee, that is as stunned as me arse. THAT IS WHAT I POSTED. READ IT.

Your post about me and what I have written do not seem impartial or genuine or even correct. Read my posts and don't twist my words. To do so detracts from your arguements, detracts from your credibility, does a disservice to rape victims, and, well, really pisses me off.

BTW, thanks for the heads up PM bud.

Now, seriously... play nice and discuss facts folks.

gnightgnu


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 04:40 PM

Yes... I read them. Nothing in them contradicts what I have said....and... those are opinions drawn from various interviews and 'interpreted'.

This quote: "...issues of power, anger, and sexuality are important in understanding the rapist's behavior. All three issues seem to operate in every rape, but the proportion varies..." says something close to what I was trying to point out.

I will quote from ME:"Because there are many, many 'violent assaults' that do NOT include sex, we must account for those which do."

That being said, quotations from Journals of Psychiatry do not address my concerns that few psychiatrists OR Mudcat posters are taking into account the genetic/evolutionary component of sexual aggression.

My wife was reading a novel yesterday where a male character was responding to criticism that his behavior was not 'reasonable'.... he responded, "Why should a man be reasonable when he can get what he wants some other way?" ....**I** know why...as did Kant... but it is very hard to explain to the average person...and when that person is a hormone-charged male of low intelligence with low self-esteem, folks need to take care!
My concern is: No matter what you...or I.... believe rape is 'about', we need to have better thought out techniques for heading off such assaults before they happen! Since all the descriptions of psychiatric interviews in the Universe don't change the fact that there are dangerous men (and a few women) out there, it is of little use to bicker incessantly over whether 'provocative dress' is...or is not... a mitigating factor.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 04:43 PM

"Just because a woman doesn't abide by your moral code and judgements, does not mean she deserves to be raped."

I never said any woman 'deserves' to be raped. I have said that some women need to take responsibility for their actions and behaviour, if they are leading men on and acting in a very 'in yer face' manner, giving out the wrong messages, deliberately.



dave, sorry, what was your question?


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Lox
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 04:48 PM

"Don't leave the PARTIALLY out. It's part of the premise for the original hypothesis."

Gnu, with all due respect, this is utter bollocks.

I've gone home with drunk female friends and not so immediate acquaintances before and they've been drukn and flirtatious.

My instinct has been to flirt back, as male and female friends do sometimes when they have a healthy friendship, but ultimately to justify their trust in me and get them home and tucked in.

Sometimes I'll even spend the night in the same bed and nothing will happen.

At no point did i think "look at her, she's pissed and asking for it, a good raping would be justified here"

I think the snooty judges here are as guilty of objectifying women and forgetting that they are people with feelings who need love and care, as the rapists are.


Taking somebody home with you is not the same as signing a contract.

I would hate to think that Gnu or anyone else might say to a girl, who said to him "can we not, I don't feel like it anymore" that he was sorry love, but now you're in the ring you can expect what you signed up for.

In fact, sexuality is much more complex than that anyway.

To really enjoy sex, there needs to be a mutual spark.

If a guy is able to ignore that a woman is not enjoying it and shag her anyway, then he has a problem.

Again, this is not reflective in any way on the victim.


Women - and men for that matter - Have the right to change their mind and anyone who says otherwise is condoning coercion and violence.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Amergin
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 05:09 PM

So according to Lizzie, if I was a little drunk and horny...and saw a hot girl scantily clad, and thought to myself, well Lizzie said it was ok...and approached her...and propositioned her, because Lizzie said it was ok, I could drag her off to an alley and force myself on her....the girl would be comforted when I told her that Lizzie Cornish on Mudcat said it was justifiable....and then when the cops came....they would look apologetically at me, because I would tell them Lizzie said it was ok, but they would still have to take me in, because it was their job.

Then I would go before the judge, and explain that yes I did it, but Lizzie Cornish said she had it coming because of the way she was dressed. The judge then, I'm sure, would dismiss the charge because of the Lizzie Cornish defense, and I would walk away free.

Soon after, the supreme court would rule that the Lizzie Cornish defense was valid, and that all convicted rapists whose justifications were the same as mine would be set free, and their names stricken from the sex offender lists.

Then, Congress would in their wisdom follow through, because everyone knows that those drunk and stoned women, who are wearing next to nothing when they go out to the clubs, all have it coming to them, will pass the Lizzie Cornish Act, making rape legal.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: GUEST,999
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 05:15 PM

"I never said any woman 'deserves' to be raped. I have said that some women need to take responsibility for their actions and behaviour, if they are leading men on and acting in a very 'in yer face' manner, giving out the wrong messages, deliberately."


It seems maybe you're looking for an argument, Amergin. That's what the lady said. The same would hold true were you or I to go to a rough part of town and get all outta joint when shit happens.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: GUEST,999
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 05:21 PM

I figure you and I wouldn't deserve to get the shit kicked out of us anymore than a woman deserves to be raped. You and I would surely understand that some parts of town just ain't meant for folks that don't carry Glocks. It's about situations and reading them correctly. IMO.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 05:28 PM

Actually, Bruce, what Lizzie initially said was "If you dress like a hooker, you'll be viewed as a hooker." And went on to blame the way women dress for them being raped, despite the fact that lots of research exists to say that this is not a major contributing factor. She also said that women who dress in revealing clothes have no self-respect.


Maybe we should all wear burkhas, just to make sure we're not giving out the wrong signals. Oh, that's right, Lizzie was ranting the other week about how women in Muslim countries are denied their self-expression by men who tell them what to wear...

But apparently it's okay for Lizzie to tell women what to wear.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 05:29 PM

""If you dress like a hooker, you'll be viewed as a hooker.

If you dress with self respect, you'll be treated with self respect.


It is not good enough for women to feel they can dress and behave however they want, and if anything happens, it's the man's fault.
""

Do you really believe that crap Lizzie, or do you just like stirring up agro?

By your reckoning, no woman in a business suit, no eighty year old in her own home, no mum-to-be in a maternity dress, would ever be raped.

I've got news for you! It happens!.......OFTEN!

The point about rape is that, while it may have a sexual aspect, it is not about sex. It is primarily about power, and control over the victim.

There is NO excuse whatever for failing to respect a NO, regardless of how far things have progressed.

It is easy to form opinions based on stereotyping, and come to conclusions as to the stereotypical personality.

Extending that assessment to the point of convincing oneself that NO, in fact, means YES, and acting on that assumption, is entirely the responsibility of the perpetrator, and absolutely not that of the victim.

End of!

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Emma B
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 05:48 PM

A mainstream myth is that a prostitute woman cannot be raped or sexually assaulted - some men have even described it analogous to 'shoplifting' - a simple crime of 'theft' !

To say that if a woman looks like a hooker she will be treated as one implies that, at least in the view of people who perpetuate this attitude to prostitute women, rape is somehow a lesser crime - and make no mistake it IS a crime of violence - if you are a sex worker, or even dress like someone's fantasy of one!


'Rape myths are gender-biased stories, which falsely assert that being a victim is more traumatic for chaste than promiscuous women'

'Rape myths dictate who qualifies as a true victim. Victims who do not fit into the stereotype of a 'Little Red Riding Hood fairy tale victim: a young, innocent female out doing good deeds who is attacked by an unknown stranger' may be seen as undeserving or may not earn the title 'victim' at all'

Get it straight!

The focus on the character and actions of the victim shifts attention from the question of why some people offend to the question of why some people are attacked.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 05:50 PM

Further up the thread Royston says.
"We're talking about whether or not women who have been raped, should carry some blame for what happened to them."

Well actually we are NOT discussing that at all.

We are discussing whether SOME rape victims should take partial responsibility.

All the stuff about dress is a bit of a red herring, as is all the verbiage about family friends, husbands ect.
These are not the cases we are discussing

"you think some women deserve to be raped"
How many times have I read that on this thread.
Nobody said anyone DESERVES to be raped
The crime is inexcusible....I said that in my first post.

What prompted me to post at all, was the case in the newspapers of a young lady who met a young man in a pub...both got sloshed, went back to his flat, got into bed and had sex.
The two parted company, and the next day, the young lady went to the police an complained of rape.

Now that girl of course did not deserve to be raped...if she was raped, but in my opinion acted in a very irresponsible manner.

This thread is a very good example of "liberalism" in action, isolate the two or three who deviate slightly from the prescribed form of words, then bully and misrepresent what they say until they fall silent and give way.   That is not being liberal, a true liberal will read a post and if he disagrees with part of it will try to come to an understanding with the other party, not simply abuse them, as has been done with Lizzie here.
I dont agree with all she says, but her opinions are not "vile" or "hateful", she just sees things slightly differently from the rest.

Jeddy....nice to see your name again my dear, I've missed your question, but I'll go back and try to find it...Ake


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Amergin
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 05:55 PM

Guest 999, I never go anywhere completely unarmed.


Ake, Lizzie bears partial responsibility for the "abuse" that she has received here. It wouldn't have happened if she didn't make herself such a big target.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 05:58 PM

Hey, gnu - I quoted what you said verbatim -

If you put on the gloves and get in the ring and get hit, you are PARTIALLY to blame.

That is what I was responding to and don't really understand the big drama. I agree entirely but don't undertand how it applied to a rape victim. Are you saying they stepped into the ring? They are partialy to blame? If that is NOT what you are saying then I apologise unreservedly. If it is what you are saying then I stand by my response.

Lizzie -

dave, sorry, what was your question?

As you are so fond of saying READ what I said. It is not difficult. I asked who was responsible for a rape.

DeG


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 06:03 PM

""But it isn't, jade. It simply isn't. And as you know, it can happen to people who aren't dressed suggestively. The chances of it happening if you ARE dressed that way therefore increase greatly.""

There you go again Lizzie.

You seem to have missed the post further up, which quoted a survey result showing that only 4.4% of victims were, in fact, provocatively dressed.

Changing your attire reduces your chances of rape by, at most, 4.4 in 100.

What needs to change is the belief that NO can mean YES! And it is men who hold that belief, and it is men who need to make changes.

And yes, I do know how frustrating a tease can be, but that is not germane to the issue of men cultivating the self control to accept the rejection, and dump the girl if they feel so inclined.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Bert
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 06:09 PM

OK. time for a funny (but true) story.

Many years ago (That's a prelude to excuse bad behavior), I was with a prostitute and things were going along just fine. Then I guess she came, 'cos she suddenly stopped and said we were done. I said 'I'm not finished'. She started pushing me away and said we were finished. So, having a reasonable amount of self control, I stopped.

Then my sense of humor kicked in and I started laughing. Actually at that time I needed the laugh more than I needed the sex.

The moral is...

Even a prostitute has a right to say no at any time.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 06:30 PM

Well, fine,Don...you just tell your daughters and grandaughters to get down there, strip right off, knock back the booze, lead the men on, be as gross as they want, in fact...do WHATEVER they want, because they're women and they can do that.....

....whilst preaching to men to have total self control at all times.

Strikes me that women need to show some bloody self control too, you know, some self restraint...

You can't have one rule for one sex, and one rule for another, because by your reckoning, and a few others on here, if it's OK for women to do whatever they want, then it's OK for men to do exactly the same, ain't it?

I mean, come on, come ON and tell me that men are free to behave in exactly the same way that *some* women are doing these days..yeah?

Let's all throw caution, self restraint, self respect, to the wind, shall we? Let's all show complete and utter selfishness towards one another, see each other as the enemy to be preyed upon...used as we want and then thrown away at the end of the evening, because hell, our lives are about 'having a great time, and to hell with any social standards!'

Let's just indulge, indulge, indulge.....

Do you want women to be safer??????? Or do you want women to carry on putting themselves at risk because of how they've been brainwashed into behaving?????

And tell me this....

...if you have sons, do you sit at home thinking 'Holey Shite, PLEASE don't let him be taken in by some stupid and selfish woman who may wind him up, send out the wrong messages, then cry "RAPE!!" when nothing actually happened, other than she changed her mind and didn't want to lose face in front of her mates????

It happens!


And men get a bloody raw deal, if they're innocent, because their innocent names get plastered all over the media, whilst the lying toads who do that to them are hidden behind legal anonymity.

You may wish for our young women to carry on dressing like hookers, I don't. I see very young teenage girls all over Torquay, who move seductively, are way to aware of their bodies, the power they have, they are way too sexual for such a young age, and they are dressed appallingly for their age. What the fuck their parents are thinking I've no idea!   They are a pervert's fantasy....and I find it hideously worrying that so many people on here seem to think that's perfectly OK. It isn't!

EVEN the dreaded feminists themselves bemoan what has happened, saying 'It wasn't supposed to be this way!".......

No, it bloody well wasn't!

But we are in the Age of Lolita, except Lolita can't handle it when things get WAY out of control, can she...so she changes her mind...but sometimes, she finds it's too late, and she's in one helluva pickle!

But never mind, we led her there, we told her it's FINE to dress like that, move like that, think, feel and breathe like that, because you don't want to be out riding horses, or sitting in the park with your mates, noooooo, you should be out riding men and snogging every stranger you can attach your lips too, because THAT is what having fun is like in 2010!

What a bunch of bloody rotten, irresponsible people we have become!

Yeah, let's relieve everyone of all responsibility. Nothing is anybody's fault at all!   We are all free to go to hell on a sexual handcart without any form of guilt or responsibility creeping up over the horizon.

No means no, right?   

Even if you've snogged half the room, agreed to go to bed, dressed like a hooker, fallen over sideways with drink, come out with the crudest things imaginable, no still means no...right? Because YOU are a woman and you have Rights!!   

Well, bugger that for a Game of Lolitas!

Tell our children and young people that their lives are in their hands. Their choices are exactly that, and if they make the wrong choice, then learn by it and never make that choice again. Tell them that it's dangerous to get legless, especially when you're wearing a legless outfit! Tell them it's dangerous to get into a taxi when you're on your own and blind drunk! Tell them there are men out there who'll spike your drinks, rape you without a second thought and if they see you already legless then you are a prime target! And tell them that those kind of men hang around late night pubs and clubs...

Tell them ways to maybe avoid the shite that could happen to them...tell them to be street aware, to walk in groups, to dress sensibly, to drink sensibly, to not lead any man on, to not get into bed with any man they don't know...tell them not to see the world through an alcoholic haze and that to wake up the next morning with a stranger next to you,who's name you can't even remember, is wrong and self degrading.

But most of all, tell them how very precious they are! Tell them how loved they are! Tell them that they are the world to you and that one day they'll meet the right person and that person will treat them bloody decently and love them back...Tell them, because a huge part of the reason why so many young girls are behaving like this in the first place is that there is noone out there to love them in the first place....and they're so stressed out with modern life that they can't bloody think straight!

Speak to them of love and trust and friendship, of honour and integrity, of men who are protective towards women. Tell them it's OK to be feminine and they don't have to behave like the worst kind of lager lout, because those in the media say they do.

But most of, most of all, never stop telling them that you love them and that they need to learn to love themselves, respect themselves.




amergin, if you can find where I've stated that 'it's ok for women to be raped' please put it down. I didn't say it so it may take you some time to find.

If you find the bit where I stated that I'd give rapists to the men of the village or the mothers, to deal with, please put that part down also, as *that* bit *is* in here.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 06:31 PM

"As you are so fond of saying READ what I said. It is not difficult. I asked who was responsible for a rape."


Under what circumstances?


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 06:39 PM

It would be unusual for a prostitute to reach orgasm - so I gather from academic sources. But I do think you deserved a refund Bert.



More importantly I am pretty fed up with the old women who insist that women don't have sex, they make love. This is all part of the same claptrap about chastity being a virtue, and "No, not without a ring".

Wake up! Young women have discovered sex and can separate it from love, and have casual sex or occasional fuckbuddies. None of that affects their right to say "No" or "Yes".


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Lox
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 06:40 PM

Ake said:

""We're talking about whether or not women who have been raped, should carry some blame for what happened to them."

Well actually we are NOT discussing that at all.

We are discussing whether SOME rape victims should take partial responsibility."

Thread title:

"Some rape victims should take blame"


The gargantuan hideous stupidity of the above quote is so utterly absurd that I can hardly believe that I have just read it.


1. according to the title, we are indeed dicussing "blame"

2. Regardless of this, the distinction is completely false.

Who is responsible for this crime? who is at fault? who is to blame?


As for "All the stuff about dress is a bit of a red herring"

try reading the article that "we are discussing" (link in the first post) in which it says:

"One-third blamed victims who had dressed provocatively or gone back to the attacker's house for a drink."

So we're discussing 2 things.

1. Does dressing provocatively make you responsible, or blameworthy, for being raped.

2. Does inviting someone you are having a nice time with make you responsible, or blameworthy, for being raped.

The article also says:

"Almost three quarters of the women who believed this said if a victim got into bed with the assailant before an attack they should accept some responsibility."

No they fucking shouldn't.

This idea that men are like werewolves, and once you let them past a certain boundary you are obliged to let them fuck you whether you have cold feet or not is utter bullshit and reprehensible in the extreme.

And this idea that "rape is inexcusable, but sometimes its the womans fault" is also rank bilge of the most spineless facile kind.


Just as Ake and Lizzie have the right to go about being dicks without being beaten up by the people they piss off, women have the right to expect not to be assaulted for accepting the offer of a drink or for choosing to wear a fun outfit.

Believe me, the element of provocation is consideraably higher in this case.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: mauvepink
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 06:41 PM

I think the thread may itself now start dying a death...

Statistics and the word "liberalism" have now been used... the death knell of discussion is upon us sadly. I wondered how long it would be and am glad we got to around 200 posts before it happened.

On one thing I do agree though. Name calling and singling people out will not change the issue. People do have differing opinions. I have not seen anyone agree that a rape victim should carry the blame... but there has been plenty suggestion they should carry the responsibility. That is what is wrong.

There is only one person responsible for a rape... the Rapist.

Clothes, time, place, position should have no bearing on putting the blame and responsibilty firmly where it lies... with the offender not the offended (victim).

She or he (victim), if they survive, will have long enough to ponder the happenings of what happened them. They need support and understanding, not finger pointing and moralistic judgements from those who would take the high moral ground and look down on them.

mp


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 06:41 PM

a fuckbuddy?

Oh fuck!

Yeah, throw love out the window, eh,Richard..'cos that way, there's no responsibility...again.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Lox
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 06:42 PM

"You can't have one rule for one sex, and one rule for another,"

Nobody here has said that its OK for women to assault men, or that men are to blame for it when it happens.

One rule for both sexes.

The rape victim is NOT EVER respnsible for the crime.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Emma B
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 06:44 PM

"EVEN the dreaded feminists themselves"

I think by now we all know how you view women who have actually got off their bums and campaigned for equality in education etc Lizzie but thanks for the reminder of the contempt you hold many women in - it is obvious even without you spelling it out!

Many of these campaigners you despise so much are also the ones who have fought for the rights of people of other races, male AND female for 'equality of opportunity' too


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 06:46 PM

"I mean, come on, come ON and tell me that men are free to behave in exactly the same way that *some* women are doing these days..yeah?

Let's all throw caution, self restraint, self respect, to the wind, shall we? Let's all show complete and utter selfishness towards one another, see each other as the enemy to be preyed upon...used as we want and then thrown away at the end of the evening, because hell, our lives are about 'having a great time, and to hell with any social standards!'"


So let me get this straight...you think that it's only, or even mostly, WOMEN who behave in this way?

"...if you have sons, do you sit at home thinking 'Holey Shite, PLEASE don't let him be taken in by some stupid and selfish woman who may wind him up, send out the wrong messages, then cry "RAPE!!" when nothing actually happened, other than she changed her mind and didn't want to lose face in front of her mates????

It happens!


And men get a bloody raw deal, if they're innocent, because their innocent names get plastered all over the media, whilst the lying toads who do that to them are hidden behind legal anonymity."


More to the point, mothers of sons, such as you, should tell your sons again and again and AGAIN that, no matter how much THEY might be goaded by their mates, no matter how yobbish and laddish they might be feeling in the heat of a pissed-up moment, No. Means. NO. Because, sad as ity is for blokes who get accused of crimes they've not committed, there are far, FAR more women who will never report their rape or assault, never talk about it, and who will contribute to the poisonous conspiracy of silence that surrounds sex crimes because woman-haters (of either sex) have told them they probably deserved or provoked or were somehow complicit in what happened to them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 06:48 PM

When did Loving turn into Fucking?   

I missed that part?

I mean....???????????


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: jeddy
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 06:54 PM

lizzie, you lost my respect a long time ago. but now i am worried about you and the children you are raising.

you teach them about love and respect. about saftey and awareness, yet on the other hand you are telling them to be scared everytime they leave the house! god help them if you discover they have got changed at a friends house and something has happened. although that would be different of course, because it would be someone you love.

you attitude disgusts me.

of course men are as 'bad ' as the women. they strut round town, shirts undone or off.

you have no interest in debate, education. just as long as you are the center of attenton. the only reason i keep posting is that if someone ever looked up 'rape' in google, and found this i do not want your rants to be the thing they remember.

i thought we were getting somewhere earlier, i was mistaken. i ask you questions, ask your opinions, and you don't reply because deep down yu know what you're saying is a load of tosh designed to wind us all up.
then when it reaches a certain point, you moan that we pick on you and get your white knight to show up to protect you from the big bad crowd.
then the madder you get the fouler your mouth becomes!
this is one of the things you have been ranting about, people being in control of themselves, you cannot even control yourself in type, i would hate to hear you in real life!

for anyone who knows me in real life will know i have a mouth like a sewer, but i am not the one band=ging on about girls acting like ladies.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 06:54 PM

My son has nothing to do with you, or with this discussion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Lox
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 06:55 PM

"Let's all throw caution, self restraint, self respect, to the wind, shall we? Let's all show complete and utter selfishness towards one another, see each other as the enemy to be preyed upon...used as we want and then thrown away at the end of the evening, because hell, our lives are about 'having a great time, and to hell with any social standards!'""

This is a complete fantasy anyway.

The reality is that people have a social life.

They meet and talk.

They like eaach other.

Sometimes, one or the other is not what they seem.

sometimes one of them is a con artist.

Sometimes one of them is a murderer.

Sometimes one is a rapist.

trusting somebody who is being nice to you is a natural thing for a human to do.

Knowing whether or not that guy is a rapist is not something that happens till after the fact.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 07:01 PM

"you teach them about love and respect. about saftey and awareness, yet on the other hand you are telling them to be scared everytime they leave the house!"

Pardon?   Where the hell did you read that, jade? Put it down, go find it and put it down on here.



"god help them if you discover they have got changed at a friends house and something has happened. although that would be different of course, because it would be someone you love."

Pardon, twice? You've lost me there. I've not mentioned my childrenn here so why are you doing that?


"lizzie, you lost my respect a long time ago. but now i am worried about you and the children you are raising."

Well, luckily, I won't be losing any sleep over that. As I pointed out to Joan, my children are nowt to do with this discussion.


"i thought we were getting somewhere earlier, i was mistaken. i ask you questions, ask your opinions, and you don't reply because deep down yu know what you're saying is a load of tosh designed to wind us all up."

I've replied to some of your points...I did not agree with some of them, I'm afraid, but I replied, perhaps not in the way you wanted me to though.

You are free to think whatever you choose about me, jade, but I find it sad that you have chosen to be so damned rude, but again, that is our decision and your responsibility.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 07:04 PM

A person acting responsibly, does not get drunk and get into bed with a stranger.
If rape occurs, a crime has been committed and the perpetrator is a criminal.

I think that just about says it all.


Argue away.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 07:05 PM

"My son has nothing to do with you, or with this discussion."

Well, of course he has. You're the mother of a son, so what you teach him is at least as important as what any mother of girls teaches her daughters. You've been ranting and screeching about what the mothers of young women ought to be teaching their daughters, and how all young women are sluts and whores, but when it comes down to it, women are not the aggressors in 99% of rape cases. Men are. So I hope you teach your son, repeatedly and firmly, that NO means NO.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 07:07 PM

"Sometimes, one or the other is not what they seem.

sometimes one of them is a con artist.

Sometimes one of them is a murderer.

Sometimes one is a rapist."


And sometimes, they're truly lovely men.

You know Lox, the unwritten rules of the old ways were there for a reason and that was so that men and women got to know each other before they leapt into bed, they got to like each other first, took things slowly...and for the most part, it often worked out well.

Now that no longer exists.

Lads expect sex on the first date, as do the girls.

I happen to think it's a crying shame, but hell, as Richard says, the brave new world is about fucking, right? So if you don't have a Fuckbuddy you sure ain't cool.

Sheesh!

Rapists have always been there, they always will be, sadly....but once upon a time we protected our children, taught them the rules of self awareness and self restraint...

Now we tell them to go get a fuckbuddy?

Heaven help us! ...but more to the point, Heaven Help Them!


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 07:09 PM

"So I hope you teach your son, repeatedly and firmly, that NO means NO."

As I said, my son has fuck all to do with you. thank you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 07:10 PM

I've not ever been raped - although I've done some fast talking in my time - so I don't really belong in this thread. For the record I wholeheartedly agree that rape is never justifiable. For the record also I think it is possible that many of the youngsters that dress so 'provocatively' are youngsters - many of them virginal - who are trying out various personae.

But it does strike me funny that Lizzie Cornish harps on how it it used to be in the days when women had self-respect and thus were never disrespected, in a day when both sexes knew how to behave, a day when men were men and women were women- and yet she never seems to notice that in those days decent women never used the language she uses. What's up with that?


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 07:10 PM

"once upon a time we protected our children, taught them the rules of self awareness and self restraint...

Now we tell them to go get a fuckbuddy?"

Do we? Blimey, maybe that's what you've taught your children. But it's certainly not what I've taught mine, nor has anyone I know.


We're veering into Lizzieana again, rather than the real world.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 07:14 PM

Nope, read Richard's post....He came out with that one, not me...You were, as ever, a little too hasty in your wish to lambast me. I merely took up Richard's word.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 07:15 PM

"As I said, my son has fuck all to do with you. thank you."

Well, our daughters have fuck-all to do with you, for that matter, but it doesn't stop you from telling us what feral sluts and whores they all are. I don't want your son, or anyone else's, growing up to be a sexual predator who puts my daughter, or anyone else's, into danger. So it's important to me what the mothers of sons teach them. That includes you. So, have you taught him that NO means NO? Because I shudder to think of him absorbing all this misogynist, woman-hating shite from you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 07:16 PM

"and yet she never seems to notice that in those days decent women never used the language she uses. What's up with that?"

Ah, but I never used to swear back then, Ebbie. I tell you what though, if you had to deal with some of these posters, all at the same time, you'd find that words starting with 'f' were the milder of the ones you'd choose. ;0)


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 07:20 PM

I have not mentioned your daughter at all. Now, back off, lady and get away from my son, because I will not enter into any discussion with you about him, mainly because I find your personal, intrusive questioning and outright lies about me deeply disturbing...


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 07:32 PM

This thread is also a good example of the "herd mentality" discussed a couple of days ago
Some posters are verging on the bovine.:0)


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Lox
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 07:35 PM

"A person acting responsibly, does not get drunk and get into bed with a stranger."

Now there's a diistinction that means something.

Being responsible for ones-self is not the same thing as being responsible for being raped.


"Lads expect sex on the first date, as do the girls."

Not true.

Lads hope for sex, and girls feel under pressure to consent to it.

Studies have shown that young girls often end up in bed because of social pressure.


As for "the old ways"

Would that be the ways in which, up until 1991, a wife was considered to be the property of her husband and therefore unrapable by him?

Or going further back would that be the old ways in which women were paid less?

or denied an education?

or denied the vote?


Bollocks to that!


Young women these days - and I mean real young women, not fantasy young women that entice innocent young fantasy puppy dogs into their lairs before stoking them up into fantasy mindless slathering beasts - the majority of young women today are courageous, great fun to know, are not afraid to express their opinions or take on challenges, and are interesting rounded and honest.

More importantly, they are more in touch with what they are looking for in men. They know what they want emotionally and sexually and they are more likely to be choosy.

Not like in your day when they would slnk off under the boardwalk in blackpool or wherever it was, only to be raped by some twat with no manners.

Women talk openly, so their friends know who they are with, and they live their lives out in the open where they can be helped if they are in trouble.

The good old days were a time of much more violence against women, only it was never talked about as it was more accepted.

More power to the young independant self aware courageous women of today, relationships with whom are not ridden with cliches and platitudes, but honest open and meaningful conversations.

And a glass raised to their predecessors who fought and suffered the humiliation of men and complicit women to give our daughters the freedom and equality they deserve.

I love 'em all!


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Emma B
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 07:42 PM

As one of the fighting 'predecessors' I will raise a glass to those who follow on too Lox - Slainté!


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: mousethief
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 07:45 PM

Ake says: This thread is also a good example of the "herd mentality" discussed a couple of days ago
Some posters are verging on the bovine.:0)


In other words they don't agree with him.

O..O
=o=


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 07:49 PM

Everybody agrees about almost everything on this thread!

Except the form of words....as fuckin' usual.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Lox
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 08:11 PM

"Everybody agrees about almost everything on this thread!

Except the form of words....as fuckin' usual. "


could this be from the same poster who wrote



""We're talking about whether or not women who have been raped, should carry some blame for what happened to them."

Well actually we are NOT discussing that at all.

We are discussing whether SOME rape victims should take partial responsibility."




Farcical drivel - as fuckin usual!


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: jeddy
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 08:13 PM

we are all in agreement about certain types of rape ake. i am sorry if you think i have become a sheep and joined in on the lizzie bashing. i can assurre you i haven't. her posts on this subject have made me very angry, not upset.

i have tried to make you see how powerless you would feel if it has happened to you. to then have people tell you that in some way it could be your own fault is extremely damaging.

with love as always
jade x x x x x


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: GUEST,999
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 09:00 PM

In a civilis/zed world, this kinda thing (rape) wouldn't happen. In a civilis/zed world people in the wrong part of town wouldn't get the shit kicked out of them. When rape happens it's a crime. When assault happens it's a crime.

Yes, sometimes the people are stupid. BIG TIME stupid. Stupidity isn't a crime.

Recognizing the world I inhabit, I took the liberty of teaching my daughter about fifteen ways to really physically hurt another person, whether or not they are stupid. She's only used the stuff a few times, but it was there when she needed it. This post-mortem shit doesn't really accomplish anything, imo. Mudcat has had many threads of this nature, and from what I read on this one, it's all been said before.

Some girls/guys dress like hookers. They are stupid. They then go to rougher parts of town. They are stupid. Parents should teach them not to do that. I liken this kind of crap to Jon Benet Ramsey (sp?) who was made to look like a damned doll. Disgusting. Yes, it was her parents' right to dress the kid that way, but ya'd have to be a really stupid parent to drop her off downtown looking that way. When the child swears at the mother, slap the father.

Rules regarding my daughters:

The rules are:

Use your hands on my daughter and you'll lose them after.

You make her cry, I make you cry.

Safe sex is a myth. Anything you try will be hazardous to your health.

Bring her home late, there's no next date.

If you pull into my driveway and honk, you better be dropping off a package because you're sure not picking anything up.

No complaining while you're waiting for her. If you're bored, change my oil.

If your pants hang off your hips, I'll gladly secure them with my staple gun.

Dates must be in crowded public places. You want romance? Read a book.

(OK. They ain't my rules, but Wiki was kind enough to have them where I could get 'em.)

IMO, we do not take enough responsibility for children. I have interrupted men on the street who were bugging girls who, in my opinion were dressed like they were looking for $20 tricks. That's their right. I would not allow my own kids to leave the house like that, but they weren't my kids. Years back I got the shit kicked out of me during a circumstance like that. Such is life. I have only one of those guys left to see, and I hope before I die to be able to do that. That said, rape will never be treated as the horrendous crime it is as long as courts give out jail terms which are a fuckin' joke. The same could be said of assault and many other reprehensible crimes.

Teach your kids well. When you ain't around anymore, they'll be looking out for themselves.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 09:19 PM

Woman are not the only rape victims.

Some guys rape sheep, cows and believe it or not they even rape fresh water porpoise in South America.

Then there are human children. The Pope does not apologize for his ministers raping kids but he did say he feels really really bad about it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Janie
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 09:51 PM

"A person acting responsibly, does not get drunk and get into bed with a stranger."

Now there's a diistinction that means something.

Being responsible for ones-self is not the same thing as being responsible for being raped.


Well said, Lox. And actually on topic.

Bill D., I normally agree with you. It seems to me, however, that you have contradicted yourself when you agree that No means No, but also say there is a gray area. I confess I have not read most of this thread, and so perhaps do not have the context needed to understand your remarks.

I am hesitant to label some one a troll on the public forum who, while very skillful at the practice, may lack the self-awareness to recognize their behavior as such. Whether one consciously trolls or not, preventive measures are the same. Don't feed them. Ignore them. Ignore any trollish behavior completely. I skimmed the first post of one of our resident (but I suspect unconscious) trolls, then skipped all the rest of that person's posts.   Then I started skipping all the posts that, after a brief skim, appeared to be troll food.   It means I haven't read most of this thread.

Unlike rape, hijacked threads require willing victims, and there is plenty enough responsibility and blame to go around.

Sorry this thread has been hijacked.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: jeddy
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 10:50 PM

janie, i do hope you are not refering to me?

i agree bruce, we should know how to protect ourselves. however if we don't we should be able to rely on family and friends being suportive enough to help us go to the police. juries can do their bit in not judging the woman before they have all the facts.

there are points i agree with. that people can get themselves into very stupid situations, but we all do it! we don't go around accusing people because they have made a mistake. it seems with this crime there is always a doubt about blame. as well as blame though we should have compassion. i take the point tht a menatly unstable person, isn't always in control of what they do, this does not mean they are any less in the wrong if they rape someone.

if only all parents were so supportive in teaching their kids to get out of trouble, but not scare them about the world either. it is, as most things educational, a balancing act.

as for society at present, we have problems yes. i have no answers to combat bing drinking for example, as i am not around kids very much.
the fashion of skimpy clothing although a red herring in as far as rape goes, is more a case of following the trends. not being able to decide what looks good on the lass concerned, but wearing what is in fashion.
i am sure that every generation thinks the sme way about the youngsters dress sense as well as their musical taste, that is just the way of the world, the younger ones finding their own thing.

as for the provication, well all i can say is if someone wins you up and you hit them, although a crime if you have tried to walk away and have been followed, then you have shown suffient restraint in my eyes. rape is different. i do not believe for an instant that someone can't control their lust.
i am sure we have all at some stage stopped or been stopped before being satisfied? i know how incredibly frustrating that can be, but to lead to forcing someone? getting up storing around and sulking i find ordinary, but rape? no.

now to lizzie, yes you have answered some of the things i have put to you, but whenever i try to ask you where the line is, you duck out. the lifting a girls top, a woman who won't stop?
the issue was some people can't help it, i wanted to know at what stage does this first start for you?
you are right though, the answers you did give me i didn't like and quite frankly i don't understand.
i don't understand how you can rant about having womans rights one day and be against them the next.
i don't understand how you want to be free of the fear of judgment when you judge others so harshly.
i don't understand that you say rape is wrong, and no means no, then in the next sentance say that only applies in certain situations.

take care all, not sure i will be posting anymore as this has run it's course but i would like to try to get people who haven't been there to understand. without i hope, having to go through it for yourselves. i wish it on no one.
jade x x x


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Janie
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 11:59 PM

No jeddy.

See pm.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 12:40 AM

'MtheGM - as you have not been on the thread I assume you are doing other things. As I am. Sad as it is I am going to watch the Brits to see if I can spot any skimpy clothes...'

No, DeG, I'm still here & have been keeping up: have even just read all posted overnite incl this of yours. Just that I have made my points & have no more to add ~ & unlike many on this & other such on&on&on threads, feel no obligation to say it all again.

Will just say that, whatever either the morality or the statistics, with neither of which I argue, I don't think anyone has improved on the adjective I used of the "Spank my bare bottom please" t-shirt wearer I wrote of, that she was being *UNWISE*. Of course no-one 'deserves' to be raped, or should, in words of thread title, bear any 'blame' for being raped. But a bit of WISDOM might occasionally go some way towards obviating such an occurrence ~~ even if in only 4·4% of instances, that would be something, wouldn't it?

Now I have done ~ unless, of course, anyone wants to come back on me again: I am only human so I have my instinctive responses: so if you get at me & I reply you will only have yourself to BLAME!


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 03:20 AM

Women should be every bit as free to enjoy their sexuality as anyone else. The repressive attribution of "responsibility" above is rooted in denial of that right.

Lizzie, if women want to refrain from sexual expression that is their right, and nowhere did I say that the ranges I mentioned replaced others. I insist however that they are legitimate choices, so long as they are choices.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 04:03 AM

"Tell them that it's dangerous to get legless, especially when you're wearing a legless outfit! Tell them it's dangerous to get into a taxi when you're on your own and blind drunk! Tell them there are men out there who'll spike your drinks, rape you without a second thought and if they see you already legless then you are a prime target! And tell them that those kind of men hang around late night pubs and clubs..."

Still don't get that bit about how less than 5% of rapists are unknown to their victim do you...

It means that NINETY FIVE PERCENT are family, friends, colleagues, neighbours, school mates, people you know and should be able to trust.

Which in turn means that rape is more likely to happen in the daylight, in your home, your neighbour's home, in their car...

It means that rape is more likely to happen when you are dressed in your work clothes (which unless you work in the sex industry are not likely to be "provocative"), or your workout joggers, or your everyday jeans and shirt, or your tatty, frumpy dressing gown and wynciette pyjamas...

And that is only the REPORTED cases. How many more go unreported simply BECAUSE it was a friend, a partner, a co-worker or the window-cleaner?

If we only warn our children about the dangers from one small facet of their lives, are we not ourselves partly to blame when it all blows up? But then, if we overprotect them, wrap them head to toe in fleecy blankies and don't let them out of the house until the day of their wedding to a person who's been vetted, psychoanalised, investigated, honey-trapped and found to be a Good Person, we do our children an even greater disservice.

LTS


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 04:28 AM

Gnu - See your PM's.

Lizzie - I am refering to my post Date: 16 Feb 10 - 01:28 PM in which I explain in detail the circumstances I am talking about. I have neither the time nor inclination to post it again if you cannot be bothered to read it first time around.

Let me make my position crystal clear for any that do not understand.

1. Rape is wrong REGARDLESS of the circumstances.

2. Young people, any people, are free to wear whatever they want. They are free to behave stupidly without the threat of forced sex. Whether they should be censured in any other way is an entirely different argument and one I do not wish to enter into.

3. By saying that SOME rape victims should take blame we cast doubt into EVERY rape victims mind as to whether they should be blaming themselves. This is not only wrong but playing into the hand of the rapist. If just one victim is found to be partialy liable then EVERY case will be tried in that basis.

4. Women who make false rape allegations are wrong but I have faith that the legal system will protect the accused. One point I wholeheartedly agree with Lizzie on is that the accused should not be named until the accusation is proven. I do not know the legal situation on that - Richard, can you tell us?

5. Anyone who jumps onto a thread about rape to have arguments that have nothing to do with the crime and score personal points is wrong. I am not saying anyone on here has done so but some of the arguments have been proven to have nothing to do with the crime. See 2, above.

Now, following in MtheGMs footsteps, I have made my points. There is nothing further to add really. If anyone wants to continue to try and convince me otherwise I would suggest a PM as I think everything that needs to be said, any many things that need not, have already been aired in public.

Cheers

DeG


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 04:51 AM

"now to lizzie, yes you have answered some of the things i have put to you, but whenever i try to ask you where the line is, you duck out. the lifting a girls top, a woman who won't stop?"



If women want to go round flashing their boobs 'just because they want to, chances are they're going to get into trouble, more likely than not. And again, they have to take some of the responsibility for that, most of it actually, because if they hadn't done it, they wouldn't find themselves in whatever situation might follow. If a man lifted my top, against my will, he'd end up on the other side of the room, as did a man once who tried to touch my tummy.


I come from a very different time, jade..I went to the toughest school in my area..and my friends did not behave in the way so many young people (and older ones) now do, nor did they live the repressed and awful life that Lox paints above. Most women were NOT raped by their husbands. I've no doubt some were, and that some still are. It happens...and unless we reach the point where a Consent Form is signed each and every time before sex, then things are going to become more and more confusing....and if you have to get someone to sign a consent form, then you are with the WRONG person.

We didn't analyse things, we just knew where the line was. Yes, I'm sure there were some girls who over-stepped it, some are far more sexually active at a younger age than others, but for the most part we got to know boyfriends first...often it was months before anything went further.

It really was frowned upon to sleep with man after man after man, and you were labelled a slag if you did that. That's how society was, but it sure kept the majority of women safe and it was alien to most of us to even consider sleeping with loads of different men.


I have the utmost sympathy for women who've been raped in the most innocent of circumstances, who have done nothing to entice a man, but have simply been in the wrong place at the wrong time, when some bloody nutter has pounced on them. Or who has been the victim of a vicious and planned attack, by a crazy or vindictive relative or colleague. Likewise with young children, both male and female, who have simply been the very innocent victims of ruthless paedeophiles. I also have the utmost sympathy for women who have been raped in an innocent situation but who have then been accused of "she led me on, she was gagging for it!" when no such thing ever happened...

BUT....


..IF a woman HAS put herself into a bloody stupid situation, led a man on, deliberately sent out ALL the wrong messages and then changes her mind, either through fear or plain bitchiness, then she has to recognise that had she NOT behaved that way in the first place that situation would never have got to that point.

I don't see how anyone can disagree with that, but I'm sure some will.

It is damned stupid to believe that 'Oh I can go as far as I want here, because he's a man and he'll stop.' because sometimes that won't happen I'm afraid...and women who think like that are hugely naive.

I still have sympathy for her afterwards, but I also feel that she should look at her behaviour and ensure she never ever puts herself into that situation again, which I'm sure she wouldn't. I'd be far happier if she'd been told before that ever happened that to behave in that way could well bring huge trouble.

I don't 'frighten' my children, jade, but they're street wise and know the rules, they have a huge amount of self respect and respect for others too. Both of them would be first on the scene to help someone if ever they saw something terrible about to happen.

But women need to know that they have a responsibility to keep themselves safe as much as they possibly can, look after themselves as much as they are able, be aware of how 'out of control' behaviour attracts the wrong kind of attention. And that goes for young lads too, because there's one helluva lot of kids out there who are getting themselves into terrible situations because society has removed all the rules. We have separated Love from Sex, turning the first into the second, with no emotional attachment, barely anything more than a physical act at the end of the night, acted out with different people, depending on who's available that evening.

It's shocking and it's terribly, deeply sad.

Men have a responsibility towards women, a huge responsibility.
BUT, women have that same responsibility.


Because one young woman chose to be completely irresponsible, and lied about my friend Paul, he ended up swinging from a tree and his family blew apart. She had no right to tell such terrible lies about her teacher, who was a good and decent man, a wonderful father, a great person well loved and respected in his village and a brilliant history teacher.

But she did, because she thought it was a bit of fun..and because he had, quite rightly, rebuffed her advances, her 'teenage crush'. However, because she was a woman, albeit a very young woman, she was believed automatically right from the start, he was not. And when she finally told the truth, the traumatising damage had already gone too deep inside his dear soul.

We all have a responsibility to each other, and we should never forget that, ever.


And if someone messed with either of my children, they'd have me to answer to, as well as the law.


And no, I don't feel that convincing women into thinking rampant sex is OK is a good thing, Richard. But that's just old-fashioned me talking.   



And Liz, having just seen your post, as I stated earlier on, I know only too well how so many rapes happen because of people who are known to the victim. My own mother was severely molested as a child, took her 50 years to talk about it, just the one time, then she never mentioned it again. I've another friend whose grandfather raped her when she was little, her family chose to never do anything about it, because they couldn't deal with the situation. It blew them apart and that damage is still going on, 40 years later, because even to this day her family won't talk about it. The grandfather died a long, long time ago, with no justice ever having been given to his grandaughter...

So yes, I get it. I get it only too well.

And there is NO guilt involved in those cases, nothing that could have been done to avoid the situation, because those situations were all planned by the men who did what they did to their wholly innocent victims. Their punishment should be the rest of their lives in prison, although I think that even that is too good for them to be honest.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 05:14 AM

From Dave, with comment at start from someone else...

She IS doing harm by dressing or behaving 'provocatively' if she doesn't intend to put out: she is committing a gross breach of manners

Sorry - Bad manners = No harm done. Rape = Lots of harm done. No over-simplifycation. Just plain fact. But just in case let us take a more complex example. Sorry if this has happened to anyone and I sincerley hope I not opening old wounds.

Chantelle goes to the disco - Dressed in the previously described manner. She has a few drinks, wiggles her bottom and flashes her boobs at Wayne, who fancies her like mad. He buys her a couple more drinks and then walks her home. She fancies him as well and gives his tonsils a good bashing with her tongue at the street corner before she says goodnight. It is not enough for him and he says he wants sex. She says no but he will not take no for an answer, drags her down an alley and rapes her.

Really easy question here for anyone - but specificaly for Lizzie and MtheGM. No trick questions. No hidden agenda. Who is responsible for the rape?

DeG<<<<<


OK....well first of all I don't understand any woman who'd 'get her boobs out' to anyone, unless she's trying to get that man heavily interested in her. But to do that in a public place is just alient to me...The message she's putting out is brazenly obvious. She then, in your story, chose to go home with him, snogged him like it was the end of the world, obviously getting him even more aroused and then, when he thought she was the kind of girl who'd get her boobs out for anyone, as she had done earlier on, and asked or expected her to go the whole way, she suddenly decided to turn into Miss Innocent and changed her mind. He gets angry, whilst still aroused...and decides to overstep that line.

He is completely at fault for overstepping that line.
She is completely at fault for making him think she was 'gagging for it' in the first place, giving him completely the wrong message.

IF she had wanted to be treated differently, then perhaps she should have done this....

'Chantelle goes to the disco, dressed differently from her pals. Wayne's intrigued...she looks like no other woman he's seen before. He fancies her like mad! She doesn't wiggle her bum at him, nor does she get her boobs out, hell, he's so fed up with slutty women who do that. But this girl, THIS girl is different, refreshing, seems to have self respect. She smiles at him and he smiles back. He decides to be brave and asks if she'd like a drink, and she says "Yes, that'd be lovely, thanks." They start chattering away, find they have a lot in common...sharing some dances.   

At the end of the evening he asks if he can walk her home, and she says 'Thanks, but Dad's picking me up, he's kinda hot about things like that." Wayne makes a note that her Dad cares a great deal about her, so he's NOT to upset him.

So, he asks if she'd like to go for a coffee the next day, and she says "Yes, that'd be great! Thank you!" He helps her on with her coat, escorts her to the door, sees her safely to her Dad's car (and boy, is Dad impressed!) then waves goodbye, feeling that he may just have found, at long, long last, his 'One in a Million' girl.   

Wayne goes home with a smile on his face.
Chantelle goes home with a smile on her face...

And Dad drives home thinking 'He seemed a nice lad!"


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 05:27 AM

Very nice. Mills and Boon are missing a good author and all that but I refer to the last, still unanswered, line of my post.

No trick questions. No hidden agenda. Who is responsible for the rape?

I really do want to get out of here but I want to know your take on that. See, your views are important, even to those who may disagree. So, once again. Who is repsonsible for the rape?

Cheers

DeG


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Folkiedave
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 05:47 AM

Lads expect sex on the first date, as do the girls

There is absolutely no evidence to say that, none whatsoever. I am not questioning you how you brought your children up - but I doubt you would say that about them. So do you not think it is wise to apply the same rules to other people's children?

The kind of people who expect sex on the first date, and there is plenty of anecdotal evidence for this - are those who have met in internet chat rooms or other ways across the ether.

Their first date is often in a hotel room.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: GUEST,Bonzo Dog Doda
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 06:06 AM

Every weekend packs of teenage girls on the housing estate I live head out to night clubs dressed like hookers in mirco mini skirts and low cut top with all their bits hanging out. They arrive home around 2 or 3 am roaring and shouting and a few just sleep were they fall. Plenty of male hunting packs arrive following the scent of a bit of jockeying.

A few have cried rape in the past, none of the cases stood up in court. Women have to take some of the blame if they act in this manner.

Most graduate into single mothers with a selection of kids to different fathers and the taxpayer picks up the bill. They enjoy a great lifestyle with a nice income and a few nights out a week and their rent and rates are paid for by you and I.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 06:11 AM

What's wrong with sex on the first or any other date, if both parties wish it?

Hell's bells, woman, do you not recall the misery and suffering created by the Victorian nightmare that you seem to worship? Set the people free. They can make their own choices without Mrs Grundy measuring how much leg they are showing. Repression is evil.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 06:18 AM

"Very nice. Mills and Boon are missing a good author and all that but I refer to the last, still unanswered, line of my post."

I did answer it.


"He is completely at fault for overstepping that line.
She is completely at fault for making him think she was 'gagging for it' in the first place, giving him completely the wrong message."


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 06:21 AM

"There is absolutely no evidence to say that, none whatsoever. I am not questioning you how you brought your children up - but I doubt you would say that about them. So do you not think it is wise to apply the same rules to other people's children?"

Exactly. I am sick of seeing everyone else's children portrayed as predatory, immoral slappers who only get what's coming to them if they get raped. I'm not sure why the world, in Lizzie's scary head, has to be divided into either this feral, predatory place where everyone else's kids are out on the town getting sloshed, walking around half-naked and having underage sex with strangers in alleys, but in Lizziana, that dream Mills and Boon world which presumably Lizzie thinks that she and her kids inhabit, it's like the freakin' Waltons.

Like most of the paranoid oppositions that Lizzie sets up, somewhere in the middle is probably the reality of the situation for most people. The only reason it matters is because all this railing against the morals of everyone's kids (but her own) is ultimately a red herring. As has been pointed out exhaustively, the great majority of rapes are NOT committed by strangers, but by people known to their victim. Therefore, there is no evidence that women dressing provocatively is responsible for some sort of rape epidemic. In fact, all the studies would suggest that this has had little impact.

Kids need to be taught to be safe and to take responsibility for their actions. Amazingly, not every kid is going to do what their mum and dad recommends as sensible behaviour. Just because someone is being young and stupid and pushing the boundaries (and, I would say again, being manipulated by the sex industry,the soft porn media and the weird celebrity culture we live in, which all contribute to the normalisation of certain behaviours), it does NOT mean that they deserve to be raped, nor that they should ever be made to feel guilty or responsible for the crime that has been committed against them. They are VICTIMS. End of.

One other thing: Lizzie, I don't care who you know who was abused as a child. You have not had that experience yourself, so you do NOT understand it. You have not experienced it, you have not lived it. You can not know what it really means, any more than I could understand what it's like to be black, just because I have black friends. Or know what it is to have my body mutilated by cancer and nearly die of it, just because my mother did. You have already tried to own the experiences of various people on this forum, including the parents of autistic children. All I am going to say is, just walk away from this


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 06:27 AM

Richard, you know exactly what I'm talking about. I'm talking about teenagers, young people, who are made to feel that sex on the first date is normal. Peer pressure...I am NOT Victorian, believe me, but I do think we have lost something very special along the road to Sex, Instead of Love.

And now, back to the topic title....


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 06:34 AM

Ok - Thanks Lizzie. I really am a bit slow at times and need to be spoon fed, so just to make sure I am getting it right can I ask the following?

Do you believe that BOTH parties are 'completely at fault'?

A simple yes or no is all I need.

If it is yes I point out that I have already disagreed but will fully accept that you are entitled to that view. If no then we need to find out how do we allocate how much each party is to blame and who decides how much each party is to blame.

In either case how is the penalty apportioned? After all, it is a crime, both parties are responsible, therefore both parties must be punished.

Cheers

DeG


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 06:40 AM

"One other thing: Lizzie, I don't care who you know who was abused as a child. You have not had that experience yourself, so you do NOT understand it. You have not experienced it, you have not lived it. You can not know what it really means, any more than I could understand what it's like to be black, just because I have black friends. Or know what it is to have my body mutilated by cancer and nearly die of it, just because my mother did. You have already tried to own the experiences of various people on this forum, including the parents of autistic children. All I am going to say is, just walk away from this"


Now that's a weird one, because you claim to know exactly how I think, what every word I write means. You claim to know more about my life than I do, when you in fact know absolutely nothing of any importance.

May I suggest that you too walk away from claiming my life as your own.

I know, from growing up with a mother who was abused, how that abuse affected her in her life and in the way she was with other people. I was her daughter, you weren't. You have your life, I know nothing about it, nor want to, nor would I put anything about your life, or those people you love, on this board. You think it is your right to do that to me. It is not.

It is not my fault that something happened to you. It is not your fault either. It was not my mum's fault, and I'm sorry if the fact that it happened to my mum annoys you, but happen it did. I didn't know about it until I was in my 30s, but suddenly, so many things in my life made sense, how I'd been treated, things she'd said and did, how she was about many things..It all began to make sense. The fault for her unhappiness lay with my Great Uncle, her father's brother, a man she spent many hours with, left there by her parents, in complete trust..and Uncle Tom and Auntie Elfrida's house was just down the road from her own. It must have been terrible for her, and it caused much unhappiness down the years, to many people who knew nothing of what had happened in her life, my immediate family included.

As to autism, that's in the other thread. I don't 'own' it, but I do have people in my family who have it, again, whether you like it or not, Joan. Please butt out of my life and get over your anger with me. Blame it on the Boogie, but don't damn well blame it on me, any longer. I've been there, done that and got the T shirt.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Emma B
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 06:51 AM

Bruce makes the point at 16 Feb 10 - 09:00 PM to teach your children well.

As long some people continue to place blame on women for provoking being raped by their dress or drinking they will fail in that duty as the parents of the boys and men who go on to rape secure in the knowledge that the woman 'deliberately sent out ALL the wrong messages ' and are thus absolved of the responsibility for their actions or misinterpretation of the so called 'messages'

Researchers consistently have found that approximately one-half of all sexual assaults are committed by men who have been drinking alcohol.
Depending on the sample studied and the measures used, the estimates for alcohol use among perpetrators have ranged from 34 to 74 percent (Abbey et al. 1994; Crowell and Burgess 1996
Although the same study has shown that similar numbers of the victims had also been drinking this is hardly surprising as in social situations (e.g., in bars or at parties), drinking tends to be a shared activity.

It is important to emphasize, however, that although a woman's alcohol consumption may place her at increased risk of sexual assault, she is in no way responsible for the assault.
THE PERPETRATORS ARE LEGALLY AND MORALLY RESPONSIBLE FOR THEIR BEHAVIOUR!


PARENTS OF YOUNG RAPISTS FINED

In the news recently is the Italian judge who, in a landmark ruling, fined the parents of rapists for failures in upbringing.

In a written judgment, the judge said the defendants came from seemingly normal families. Yet they appeared to have no understanding of the gravity of what they had done. They had given evidence about the rapes in a way that was "aseptic", she said.

The judge said this showed the accused had not been brought up "in a context of respect for the feelings, wishes and bodies of others".

In their defence, the mothers and fathers of the boys had offered various examples of their supposedly good parenting and testified that their children were 'brought up to be good Christians'


Lizzie says

"I have the utmost sympathy for women who've been raped in the most innocent of circumstances, who have done nothing to entice a man, but have simply been in the wrong place at the wrong time, when some bloody nutter has pounced on them. Or who has been the victim of a vicious and planned attack, by a crazy or vindictive relative or colleague"
"I also have the utmost sympathy for women who have been raped in an innocent situation but who have then been accused of "she led me on, she was gagging for it!" when no such thing ever happened."

Of course hegemonic masculinity is the most common blueprint in Western culture and I don't suppose there is really any point in presenting further evidence against such entrenched simplistic opinions that acquaintance rapes simply don't fall into these 'neat' categories

Real life is not the black, white and rosy glow of Lizzieworld

"rape will never be treated as the horrendous crime it is as long as courts give out jail terms which are a fuckin' joke"

- and as long as the victim is perceived by some people to carry responsibility for a criminal assault the courts will reflect this distorted perspective too.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 06:54 AM

"In either case how is the penalty apportioned? After all, it is a crime, both parties are responsible, therefore both parties must be punished."


Yes, both parties are responsible in their own way. Had the girl not behaved as she did what followed would most probably never have happened. Therefore she instigated that set of circumstances happening, whether she wants to believe that, or not.

However, that does not excuse the boy at all.

If you are willing to start the ball rolling, then you have to be willing to possibly have to roll with it. You do not have to start that ball at all, of course, because you are free to take that decision from the beginning. It is vital to be aware of the consequences of your actions, and we have stopped telling young women about that, instead telling them they have every right in the world to behave as appallingly as they so choose.

The girl in your story led him on, David, in a quite outrageous way. I would hardly say she was innocent, would you?   

You feel that women should have no responsibility whatsoever, no matter what they've done to possibly create the situation above in the first place. You possibly may feel that they shouldn't even be warned never to do that again, because it is their 'right' to do exactly that, over and over, should they want.

I don't feel that way at all.   

You are about Personal Irresponsibility for women, but not for men.
I am about Personal Responsibility for both men and women.

I believe that both were wrong, because without the first behaviour, the second may never have happened. But that does not let the man off the hook, because he should have controlled himself and walked away. He chose not to, so therefore he is accountable for the punishment he knows will happen to him.

We differ and should agree to differ, as this is getting boring and going absolutely nowhere.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: jeddy
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 06:59 AM

lizzie, thanks for explaining. although i still disagree, you did explain that in a way i could understand. it is easy to see the generational gap even from your teens and mine.

your senario shows a quaintness that doesn't happen very often anymore which is parental knowledege and involment and even interest.

i watch jeremy kyle and am gobsmaked at the amount of people who will sleep around and have kids through one night stands. but that is me being the age i am thinking, it wasn't that bad when i was younger.
by the way, im in my 30s now, not sure how that matters but just to let you know. i have in my time, stopped something because i wasn't comfortable with going any further. i think sex should be on a step by step basis. just because you are comfortable doing one thing doesn't mean you have to do the next step.

however looking back to past times doesn't help, it never has done and never will. times change and we have to change with them.

have a great day everyone
take care
jade x x x x x


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 07:22 AM

You have every right to stop anything, at any time, jade. Both my children know that.

Thank you for your kind reply, and I would very much hope that we are still friends. x

And yes, it is a quaint old fashioned story, but it is the story of how I grew up. My parents were always outside to meet me, or my friend's parents were. We were not pulled away from our parents, from our families, in the same way that young people are now, told they must leave home by 16/17..made to feel weird if they don't..We were simply happy to be having fun...and dancing at the disco was exactly that, with a bit of kissing maybe, if you went there with your boyfriend.

Most lads were well behaved, but there was always the chancer who'd put his hands on your bottom whilst you were dancing. You simply moved them up to your waist..and if he put them down again, you walked away, back to your friends.

My friend's daughter had her drink spiked a few years back, she suddenly couldn't stand up. Luckily, her friends were close by, realised what had happened and surrounded her immediately, getting her home as fast as they could.   It affected the young girl deeply and she ended up seeing a psychiatrist...She was no shrinking violet, but she realised how vulnerable she was and that frightened her. She's fine now, married, running a pub...

But yes, times have changed a great deal, because that just never happened back then.



Emma, Bruce also mentioned about the young girl whose mother dressed her up as a little adult, put her on the Beauty Pageant Circle...

Well take a look at what Katie Price (Jordan) did to her 2 year old the other day..and those photos went on the internet, via Facebook.

Jordan's daughter

her ex-husband, quite rightly was utterly shocked.

Jordan is seen as some kind of weird 'heroine' by many young girls these days, who copy her every look, her every move...Personally, that frightens the shite out me, as does that photo of her little girl. I worry about her future, I really do.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 07:32 AM

Thanks again Lizzie. I disagree but at least it was put in a reasonable manner that even I could understand:-) What I will add is why I disagree and would be interested in your views on that.

You say because without the first behaviour, the second may never have happened. I am sure you are aware that all crimes can carry a charge for anyone who did not actualy commit the crime but did something to assist. It is called aiding and abbeting. So, in our scenario, the man committed the crime but without the girl's actions he would not have done it. She has aided and abbeted in that crime as, without her actions, there would not have been a crime in the first place. So, do we punish her as well?

Better still, should we make it a crime to encourage people to commit other crimes? Incitement to racial hatred is already a crime. Why don't we make incitement to rape another? That way we are preventing crime rather than picking up the pieces. Only slight problem is, who will determine what that incitement actualy is? The girl out on the town flashing 'em for the lads? The Pussycat Dolls goading lads into wishing their girlfriends were 'hot like me'? Maddy Prior for asking us to 'Ruffle up the feathers in the Cuckoos nest'? Where will it stop?

Once you are on the slippery slope of justifying ANY rape I am afraid there will be no stopping. Nothing to do with sexism. Nothing to do with believing women over men or vice versa. Just, quite simply, rape should NEVER be mitigated by circumstance. Either the woman has consented, in which case there is no crime, or she has not, in which case it is rape.

That is why I disagree. Oh - BTW - you are completely wrong when you say You possibly may feel that they shouldn't even be warned never to do that again, because it is their 'right' to do exactly that, over and over, should they want. You could not be further from the truth but it has nothing whatsoever to do with the point in question.

Cheers

DeG


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 07:35 AM

Oh - and I still pick up 20-30 year old offspring from nights out. But only if they ask me to. With the price of taxis they know they are onto a winner:-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Emma B
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 07:50 AM

Off topic (sorry) but just as an aside to another of Lizzies 'facts'

"in the same way that young people are now, told they must leave home by 16/17..made to feel weird if they don't"

In FACT,

The growing reluctance of Britain's twenty- and thirtysomethings to fly the parental nest was revealed last April by the Office for National Statistics (ONS) in its annual report on the latest social trends.
The latest available figures were for the second quarter of 2008. They showed 29% of men aged 20-34 and 18% of women of the same age lived with their parents.
This compared with 27% of men and 15% of women in 2001.

"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

I was a tennager in the 50s and 60s - my memory is quite different from Lizzies who must have been pre school age in the 50s I think; but maybe my advanced years have given me a better long term memory of the times :)


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 07:55 AM

That Katie Price link didn't work above, sorry...

Try this - Jordan/Katie Price's daughter


Dave, no rape is justifiable, but I feel there are different forms of it, as someone suggested earlier on. (Pre-meditated etc...)

That does not make ANY form right, or excusable. But if someone has been literally taken to the edge, sexually, played along with and been led to openly believe that willing full sexual intercourse is what is on offer, and then, at the final moment that offer is suddenly withdrawn, I think that some folks would realise that, anger, bewilderment and frustration had a huge part to play in what may happen next.


However, rape is still rape, and any man who chooses to cross that threshold must be aware of what he's doing and be prepared to suffer the consequences of that. But in those circumstances, I feel the blame should be shared out a little, don't you?

Maybe it would be good if the girl could put her hand up and say "You're right, I was a fool, I never meant it to go that far. I hate what you did to me, but I understand now that I should never have taken you to that point in the first place. It doesn't excuse what either of us did, we both behaved very stupidly."

And he could apologise too, profusely, on his knees! And then, who knows, the healing process may start to happen, for them both, because I should think that in that set of circumstances, the man involved would feel horrified at what he'd done.

Dunno, could be wrong, but I'm just putting a different view across.




For those who rape strangers, prowling upon them, seeing all women as 'asking for it'...well, I'd shoot 'em dead, that way you'd not have nutters like The Yorkshire Ripper coming to the end of his sentence, because his sentence should never end. His punishment did NOT fit his crime. Last year it was stated that he was now a low-risk prisoner and should be freed.#

He raped and cut up 13 women. He will NEVER be low risk anything.

Those who rape, repeatedly, should never be allowed out of prison, ever.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 08:01 AM

Emma, I'm not talking about your 'facts' I'm talking about the experience of my children, my friend's children, their friends, how they feel etc...

I was born in 1955. My memories are exactly as I write them, but I fully appreciate they may be different to yours for a myriad of different reasons..

And I'm leaving this thread now, with Bruce's wise words:

"...Teach your kids well. When you ain't around anymore, they'll be looking out for themselves."


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 08:06 AM

Ya' know... I don't see where anyone is condoning rape here... Maybe I am missin' something???

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 08:07 AM

Maybe that's because a fair amount of back-tracking has gone on, Bobert.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Emma B
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 08:14 AM

"Emma, I'm not talking about your 'facts'"

They are NOT 'my' facts but the figures from the Office of National statistics

Maybe I could suggest there is more 'outside the box' of your own limited experiences or at least you could give us the benefit of the sources of just where else you get your presumptuous statements from so that we can reach a considered opinion on them?


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Emma B
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 08:41 AM

OK I think I have got it now!

Although my, and possibly many other peoples experiences, may be very different from yours Lizzie you can still nevertheless inform everyone that

"that just never happened back then."

without expecting to asked for some justification of your presumptuous pronouncements.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 08:42 AM

Maybe it would be good if the girl could put her hand up and say "You're right, I was a fool, I never meant it to go that far. I hate what you did to me, but I understand now that I should never have taken you to that point in the first place. It doesn't excuse what either of us did, we both behaved very stupidly."

Doesn't work for me I'm afraid. Once you start to go down the road of how far did the girl lead him on you will inevitably get into the realm of diminished responsibility. If you are happy for the man to have his sentance reduced on those grounds then, fair enough, that is and always must be the womans choice. I don't believe that having a high testosterone count and an erection is any more an excuse that is high levels of alcohol but that is just me. Don't forget that by accepting part of the blame the girl is saying that it was not 100% the mans fault and he should not, therefore, get 100% of the punishment!

I will also say Dunno, could be wrong, but I'm just putting a different view across. I strongly suspect that neither of us is 100% right but I would lay odds that any concencus taken would put the blame fairly and squarely on the man.

I do resent the suggestion that most men nowadays have been somehow 'brainwashed' by feminists, just as much as I refute the claim that a man would reach a point where he could not stop. I am as much an MCP as ever. I long for those days of yore when the little lady would be waiting at home, bedecked in gingham, with steak pie in the oven, slippers by the fire and rough shag in the pipe. But I am a realist and accept that those days have gone, along with good girls being in by 10, bear baiting and consumption. We all have to take the rough with the smooth I'm afriad...:-P

I think I have now covered all the counters but I could be surprised. may join in again if there is anything new.

TTFN

DeG


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: SINSULL
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 09:05 AM

Unfortunately, a potentially good discussion has turned into the usual slug fest with no attention being paid to the original post. Too bad.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: jeddy
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 09:30 AM

how do you mean sinsull? we might have gone round in circles a few times, but i feel that something has come from this, a deeper understanding maybe. or maybe i am just feeling alot less angry than i did yesterday.
although we are all entilted to our points of veiw, it is important to try and understand, even if we can't agree.

i can see where lizzie is coming from even though i think she is totally wrong. the differencr today is that she has mafde an effort to explain in a non judgmental and non accusing type of way.

for me, there can be no blame what so ever on the victim of rape.

i assumme the lust of both men and women run along the same lines. one has a bit that sticks out and one has one that goes in. i would have thought the urges are exactly the same?

the other point i would like to steal from my favourite books is that the human species is the only one that uses force for sex.
in nature it is always the females choice, the male can try and try but can only penetrate if the female consents.

take care all
jade x x x x


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Emma B
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 09:41 AM

To return hopefully for the last time.....

Teach your kids well - and also, in the knowledge and understanding of the past

Throughout history (rape is by no means a recent phenomena) definitions of rape were a function of cultural attitudes toward violence and its victims, who were mostly society's weakest members--poor women and children.

During the 'early modern period', women and children were viewed as the property of males, instead of as autonomous individuals.
Rape was therefore a form of theft in which the victim was always suspected of complicity and morally tainted by involvement, no matter how unwitting, in the act

Convictions against rapists were nearly impossible to win in court because definitions of the crime were narrow, the most blatant evidence tended to be ignored, and judges assumed that even the youngest victims were somehow accomplices in the crime.

As Western society became less tolerant of violence against the person, especially toward children, and more conscious of rape's psychological damage to the individual, it began to "see" sexual violence in cases where previously it had discerned only a misdemeanor towards which justice, in spite of the harsh penalties the law prescribed for rape, was accustomed to turning a blind eye.

The growth of the popular press in the eighteenth century fostered a public opinion less tolerant of violence. The development of medical interest in the anatomical traces of rape, and, in the later nineteenth century, of interest also in the psychological scars, focused attention on the victim as an individual.

Child rape began to be more vigorously condemned, especially its violence and physical wounds.

In more recent times, laws were easier to alter than the attitudes and behaviour of those who administered them

Nevertheless, society began to view the rapist as a criminal instead of as an ordinary person temporarily blinded by lust.

However, it was not until the 1970s that women forced the courts to take rape against adult women seriously, and to combat defence strategies that "blamed the victim" for the attack

It seems, from the origin of this thread and some contibutions, this battle against archaic cultural suspicions regarding the veracity and moral probity of rape victims has not yet been won but…..


Teach your children better!


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: GUEST,Bonzo Dog Doda
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 12:48 PM

Any young girl who becomes pregnant receives child tax credit, income support, child benefit and a £500 maternity grant and their rent and rates paid for them. The shocking extent of benefits made available to such gym-slip mums has to stop.


The government is effectively condoning under-age sex. It also puts a gloss on teenage motherhood, with the result being many youngsters consider it an attractive lifestyle.Perhaps most crucially, handouts like these make a mockery of the Government's strategy aimed at cutting teenage pregnancies.

The Government vowed to half the number of pregnant under-16s by 2010. But how can it achieve this goal when it is offering teenagers such 'help' as £500 maternity grants? These policies are simply encouraging pregnancies among young women.A lot of the ones on my estates admire their peers who have given birth and often seek to copy their status and acquire the free flat they think having a baby usually brings.

Such alarming attitudes should provide the government with a stark warning that welfare benefits to single teenage mothers need to be curtailed.Britain has long had among the highest teen pregnancy rates in the EU. The initiatives introduced to tackle the problem are not working. But this is shrugged off by the Government, which claims the situation will improve.



But how can it improve when teenagers are confronted at every turn with the notion that teenage sex is acceptable? Teenage pregnancy plotlines are now are in all of our television soaps.Then there's the government's promotion of abortion and contraception among school-aged children which in effect condones and encourages sexual activity.The Government must change tack and adopt a tougher line.



Advocating abstention is a policy which has worked in America. So, if America can cut teen pregnancies, why can't we? Britain has effectively made under-age sex acceptable by handing out condoms to children and proposing confidential sex counselling to girls under 16.
Why aren't we reinforcing the meaning between sex and love and the importance of committment between sexual partners? Education is vital in combatting teenage pregnancies, not the incentives for young mums-to-be that come with generous financial handouts.


It's not good enough for parents, or the government, to throw their hands up in their air and say the battle can't be won.Our role as responsible parents is to tell our teenagers that sex under 16 is wrong and against their best interests. Terrify them with the consequences, show them examples of the uphill battle children who have children face. These young mums seem to have enough money to booze their weekends away and bring home a string of men, exposing their children to God knows what. Benefits to this section of society must be cut.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Folkiedave
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 01:07 PM

Second time you have made that point.

Troll.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Amos
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 01:14 PM

Sigh. To an average teenager--at least 16 or more--teenage sex is not only acceptable, it is THE highest good, Grail and goal to all social activity.

The fact that this occasionally culminates in actual teenage sex is pretty understandable, considering the magnitude of the repressed drives behind it. It has nothing to do, IMHO, with theoretical judgements from the deluded, the jealous, or the bureaucratically inclined. Might as well say evolution is unacceptable. It's going to happen regardless of opinion. SOme might even consider it owrth celebrating (especially the participants).

Dealing with the latent ramifications is another issue. I suspect if teenage pregnancy were not an issue, no-one would much care about teenage sex, except the participants.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Emma B
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 01:18 PM

"It has nothing to do, IMHO, with theoretical judgements from the deluded, the jealous, or the bureaucratically inclined."

It also has nothing whatsoever to do with this thread which seems to be the only one the new guest Bonzo Dog Doda has contributed to with this particular message - although we have seen other 'guests' espouse it from time to time.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: mauvepink
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 01:24 PM

And teenage sex has eaxctly what to do with a rape victim being blamed for being raped? Is there some suggestion that by some teenagers wanting to gave sex they are responisble if they get raped?

The point is lost on me somehow...

The topic is that of blame being put upon a victim and that this is unacceptable in any language.

mp


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: frogprince
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 01:35 PM

"Advocating abstention is a policy which has worked in America"
That would be a real laugh, if it wasn't such a sad idea of a joke. By all means, let parents try to impress children with the value of waiting for a measure of maturity. But can anyone really be unaware of what a farce policies of abstenance-only education have turned out to be?


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Amos
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 01:47 PM

I find the title of this thread very irritating. I wish it would be at least rephrased as a qu8estion. As an assertion, it raises me hackles, it does.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 01:53 PM

""Strikes me that women need to show some bloody self control too, you know, some self restraint...""

That's what they are doing when they say no, and that should be the point when the man complies.

Abbreviated dresses and too much to drink are not an open invitation to rape, except in the twisted minds of dinosaurs still living in the sixties.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 01:56 PM

""You may wish for our young women to carry on dressing like hookers, I don't. I see very young teenage girls all over Torquay, who move seductively, are way to aware of their bodies, the power they have, they are way too sexual for such a young age, and they are dressed appallingly for their age.""


Jealousy?

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Emma B
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 02:21 PM

Amos, in the initial post the OP posted a link to a BBC news article about a the results of a survey* - the headline of which read

"Women say some rape victims should take blame"

It was indeed an assertion as one-third of the women interviewed blamed victims who had dressed provocatively or gone back to the attacker's house for a drink and more than half of those of both sexes questioned said there were some circumstances when a rape victim should accept responsibility for an attack.

*The online survey, titled Wake Up To Rape, polled 1,061 people aged 18 to 50, comprising 712 women and 349 men.

An Amnesty International report five years ago found that a significant minority of British people laid the blame for rape at victims themselves.
Following the results of this more recent survey Amnesty International's UK director Kate Allen said the new findings were "alarming but sadly not surprising".

"It is depressing that, nearly half a decade later, people are still quick to blame the victim of rape rather than placing the responsibility where it actually belongs - squarely on the shoulders of the perpetrator," she said.

I suppose it's equally "alarming but sadly not surprising". that some contributors to this thread should agree with the 'significant minority'


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Amos
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 02:25 PM

Ebb:

YEah, I was aware of the OP. At least a question mark would have been more tasteful...

Non-consensual sex is extremely antisocial, treacherous, and offensive under any circumstance; no justification should stand.

I can imagine a case where the consent was withdrawn after the fact, which could leave the male in a very awkward situation; but my advice would be to choose better whom he pursueth.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 02:29 PM

Jealousy? of a 14 year old being ogled by drooling creeps on the bus, 3 or 5 times their age. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: mauvepink
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 03:01 PM

Amos wrote "I find the title of this thread very irritating. I wish it would be at least rephrased as a qu8estion. As an assertion, it raises me hackles, it does."

Amos I can only apologise but I took the title from the BBC article which itself irritated the heck out of me. Not the article but some of the views expressed. I posted it more or less verbatim to create discussion and revulsion at the very idea. I think it has more impact the way it is written.

I did say I was devastated by the article. I went through some ideas as to my own opinions and there was no way I could get near to ever thinking a rape victim played a part to it.

Categorically I do not agree with the title... but it serves a purpose of making people want to look at the thread and express their views and, hopefully, their total support for rape victims without judgement. I think overally the thread has been very positive, though I do and did apologise for anyone who it has touched upon or opened for that was not its intention wounds.

The original article shocked me as much as have some of the comments here because they have come from women. You could almost expect the men to be crying out about being tempted and women not playing fair. For the men to be defensive in some ways. So far not one has and I am encouraged greatly by that. Which proves the point really

Only a guy who could rape would likely be affronted by being accused of doing it. Decent men, while maybe having made mistakes and misread signals from maybe confused signallers, have still respected her and stopped or stayed clear. The idea that men have no self control, if they have an erection, is fallacious and this thread wholeheartedly supports that statement.

Women may give ff false/bad/wrong signals. It is difficult for many men to be able to wend their way through that... but they do and they should be commended. That said, most men are not rapists so it makes sense they take no as no. I just was not ready for the female accusers of the article and some of the suggested possible causes here.

If the title offends I am sorry. Nevertheless the thread has been mostly very positively against the title's assertion and that is extremely pleasing :-)

I hope this explains my stance a little better

mp

{Is this small change acceptable?]


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Subject: RE: BS: "Some rape victims should take blame"- ??
From: mauvepink
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 03:10 PM

Amos wrote "I can imagine a case where the consent was withdrawn after the fact, which could leave the male in a very awkward situation; but my advice would be to choose better whom he pursueth."

There lies a very sad situation and it is there where the male really does get a raw deal. I do not think he should get named for an allegation and should have the same protection as the alleged victim until proven. Too many men have come unstuck because a woman has changed her mind afterwards and the called rape. For me, if she knows she consented and then calls rape she shoulod be the one charged.

If she is not certain what she did but knows what happened to her when she wakes up... massive grey area. To me this is the haunting one. Was it rape or consented? Who would truly know? Some evidence of rape would be required I am sure, and not just sperm but force, to proceed with prosecution. I dare say there have been cases where women have got it wrong but not in any malicious way. It would be nice to think modern law and forensic could help find the truth... but there is major areas of doubt.

As for malicioulsy accusing someone of rape falsely: if that is then proven then the accuser should do the time. It devastates lives and many men, falsely accused, have in the least had ruined careers and at worse killed themselves. False accusation is as heinous as rape in my opinion.

mp


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Subject: RE: BS: "Some rape victims should take blame"- ??
From: mauvepink
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 03:12 PM

I see a moderator has added ??

Thanks :-)

it hopefully passifies those who may have disliked the initial title

mp


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Subject: RE: BS: "Some rape victims should take blame"- ??
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 04:24 PM

"As for malicioulsy accusing someone of rape falsely: if that is then proven then the accuser should do the time. It devastates lives and many men, falsely accused, have in the least had ruined careers and at worse killed themselves. False accusation is as heinous as rape in my opinion."

But, that would mean that you're expecting women to be responsible, and you've stated that women don't need to be responsible because there is no excuse for rape, no matter HOW they behave towards a man, no matter WHAT they do to him.

Responsibility is what I've been banging on about the whole way through, actually, mp.

Maybe you'd like to think about what might happen to a man who was maliciously singled out by a woman who deliberately gave him the wrong signals. A woman who went home with him, continuing with those signals, who got into bed with him, signalling away, who let love-making (or sex for the emotionless amongst you) start, who kept at it, relaxing as he relaxed, who brought this man to the point of almost no return....and then, just as he was about to...............

....she changes her mind.

Quite deliberately.

She changes her mind, pushes him away, says scathing things to him...and when he flips out completely, with anger, confusion and deep frustration and does the unthinkable, she then cries "RAPE!" at the top of her voice...

What then, of the man who simply went home with a woman he thought was deeply interested in him, sexually?

What then, for the man who is now a rapist?

What then, for the man who may never, had he not been in that place at that time, with that woman, have ever dreamt of raping a woman?

What then?

Another noose, slid gently around his neck one day, when he can take the thoughts no longer, like my wholly innocent friend, Paul, who was a victim of malicious accusation?

What then of the man?
What then of the woman?
What then of the families?

Total Irresponsibility and No Blame can have HUGE repercussions, for all involved.

I am not condoning rape here, just trying to get you to see a very different viewpoint. You don't have to of course, for you are free to feel as so choose.



Rape is rape, but sometimes, the paths that lead up to particular sorts of rape, as in 'date rape' are far from smooth or easy to walk down.

yes, no-one has the right to make any woman do something she does not want to, but she needs to think very carefully about what she actually IS doing, before anyone gets hurt.


And sorry to come back in here again, but your words rankled with me a little.


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Subject: RE: BS: "Some rape victims should take blame"- ??
From: Emma B
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 04:31 PM

As there is no excuse, in my book, for any man who believes no means yes there is equally no excuse for any woman who retrospectively (for whatever reason) turns yes back to no.

However amongst the many 'myths' about rape is the one that perpetuates the popular prejudice that about half rape victims are lying,

Research shows just 3% of rape allegations are false - still 3% too many!

"The fear that women lie about being rape can be found throughout history.
In the seventeenth century, Lord Chief Justice Matthew Hale was responsible for introducing the "cautionary instruction" into common law.
This entailed the judge informing the jury that rape was a charge that was easily made by the victim and yet difficult for the defendant to disprove.

Until the 1980s, judges commonly uttered these words to jurors, despite the fact that the legal system within which Hale worked was fundamentally different from the one facing defendants from the nineteenth century onwards.
In Hale's time, criminals were not presumed innocent, proof beyond reasonable doubt was not required, and notions of due process were shaky.
The accused did not have the right to counsel or the right to testify under oath; he could not subpoena witnesses." *

*New Statesman article 2008

"Today, in the early twenty-first century, the same rape myths still circulate.

These flaccid catchphrases seem clear and self-evident,
yet are profoundly damaging for people who suffer sexual abuse"


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Subject: RE: BS: "Some rape victims should take blame"- ??
From: Emma B
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 04:52 PM

"Maybe you'd like to think about what might happen to a man who was maliciously singled out by a woman who deliberately gave him the wrong signals. A woman who went home with him, continuing with those signals, who got into bed with him, signalling away, who let love-making (or sex for the emotionless amongst you) start, who kept at it, relaxing as he relaxed, who brought this man to the point of almost no return....and then, just as he was about to...............

....she changes her mind.

Quite deliberately."

This is NOT a description of acquaitance or 'date' rape Lizzie; it seems to be some weird fantasy scenario of someone who really holds nothing but contempt for women.

Yhe more usual situation is a couple who having been drinking together there is a failure to read messages - probably from both sides.

however - do NOT demean men here - they are not a slavering slave to some atavistic hegemonic masculine lust and do NOT have to continue against someone's expressed wishes

As I quoted somewhere previously

It is offensive to both men and women to burden women with responsibility for male behavior and infantilizes men as creatures unable to exercise self-control.

The myth of uncontrollable male sex drive manages to be both misogynistic and misandrist at the same time


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Subject: RE: BS: "Some rape victims should take blame"- ??
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 05:04 PM

Simple enough principle, maybe best stated in the context of a less traumatic crime - if you leave your keys in the door of a car, you carry some responsibility for it getting stolen. But that in no way should be seen as reducing the guilt of the person who steals the car.

Guilt shouldn't be seen as shared between a victim and a perpetrator of a crime, so that the guilt of the perpetrator is reduced if the victim caries some blame. Plenty of crimes whetre a victim can reasonably be seen as carrying some blame, but that shouldn't be seen as in any way reducing the blame on the perpetrator.


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Subject: RE: BS: "Some rape victims should take blame"- ??
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 05:15 PM

No, Emma, I don't hate women.

I dislike selfish and thoughtless women though, and selfish and thoughtless men too. Probably best if you don't feel that you know me better than I do. Your pal does that too, and she also gets it wrong. And sorry, but that scene is just as posisble to happen as yours is. There are many different reasons for things going so wrong.


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Subject: RE: BS: "Some rape victims should take blame"- ??
From: Lox
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 05:19 PM

On the subject of "where to draw the line".

If a man and a woman are having sex and the woman wants to stop, THAT MEANS STOP!

To say that he has some sort of entitlement to carry on regardless is completely FUCKED UP.

If he doesn't respect her wishes he is doing something wrong.

"she led me on" would be a ridiculous thing to say.

Sometimes, all of us can probably say that we have not felt right for one reason or another.

Sometimes ones partner can take this badly.

But human beings are not fairground rides.

You DON'T get to demand your moneys worth because you NEVER have ownersship over another person.

It is possible for two people to start out having consensual sex and then end up being players in a rape scenario.

The line folks is very simple and very clear.

If one person, at any time, decides they don't want to have sex at all or any more, then any attempt to coerce it after that point is rape.

And it is 100% the rapists responsibility.


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Subject: RE: BS: "Some rape victims should take blame"- ??
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 05:23 PM

Lizzie - all that nonsense about love being necessary first is simply a reframing of your repressive diktat.

Sex does not need love to justify it - only mutual freely given consent.

Love may arise, and good luck if it does. It may be linked to sex, or it may be independent of it. But it is not a necessary precursor.


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Subject: RE: BS: Some rape victims should take blame
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 05:25 PM

I am intrigued by the description of her teenage years by Lizzie, in view of the fact that she is describing, most accurately, what life was like in my teens (1953 to 1959).

Born in 1955, and entering her teens in 1968, post bikini, post hotpants, in the period of free love, hippies, communes, flower power, Woodstock, the Beatles and Stones, LSD, Pot etc. etc.

It makes me wonder, in what secluded, miles from anywhere idyll she spent those years, which, for the rest of us, were the precursor to the culture she so despises.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: "Some rape victims should take blame"- ??
From: Lox
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 05:26 PM

"But, that would mean that you're expecting women to be responsible, and you've stated that women don't need to be responsible because there is no excuse for rape"

NO.


Noone says that women should not act responsibly.

Everyone should act responsibly.



That has nothing to do with this:



A rape vitim is not responsible for being raped.


The two things are exclusive to each other.



We are all responsible for our own actions.


We are not responsible for other peoples actions.


A Rapist is responsible for the act of rape, not his victim.


Is that clear?


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Subject: RE: BS: "Some rape victims should take blame"- ??
From: akenaton
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 05:35 PM

Mr McGrath as usual has addressed the problem suscinctly

"Guilt shouldn't be seen as shared between a victim and a perpetrator of a crime, so that the guilt of the perpetrator is reduced if the victim caries some blame. Plenty of crimes whetre a victim can reasonably be seen as carrying some blame, but that shouldn't be seen as in any way reducing the blame on the perpetrator."
I agree 100%, and this is what I and I presume Lizzie have been trying to say

Funny how Mr McGrath's post was completely ignored by our baying "libs"


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Subject: RE: BS: "Some rape victims should take blame"- ??
From: Lox
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 05:58 PM

I Missed McGraths Post.

I disagree 100%.

My example in my previous post shows where all your "boundaries" really exist - in your head.

Reality is something entirely different.

In a REAL bed with a REAL woman, if you are already having sex - let alone being seduced - if she wants to stop - or if you do - that is enough.

It would take a rapist to coerce anyone to carry on when they want to stop.

The victim is not to blame.

She trusted him.

I see our resident fuckwit has come sniffing around again to piss up the nearest lamppost and whine about liberals again.


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Subject: RE: BS: "Some rape victims should take blame"- ??
From: jeddy
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 06:38 PM

this latest whipping people into a frenzy upsets me deeply.

i thought we had come to if not agreement then an understanding.

lizzie, you and i obviously know very different men!!!!!!!!!!

i was going to go into yet another real life, what i have seen senario, but to be truthful, i am that upset with you making excuses for men to not control themselves, i am NEARLY lost for words.


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Subject: RE: BS: "Some rape victims should take blame"- ??
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 06:40 PM

"We are all responsible for our own actions.


We are not responsible for other peoples actions."




But what if our actions have caused reactions in others, Lox?

The majority of rape cases are absolutely clear cut, in that a woman has been raped by a man, through no fault of her own. She may know him, she may not, but he has set out deliberately to rape her, for whatever reason he may have in his head. She bears no guilt for that whatsoever. It is entirely his fault. I have no sympathy for the rapist and every sympathy for his victim/s.

I am just putting forward another view....and that is a situation where the end result has happened because of the deliberate actions of a totally irresponsible woman. It does not let the man off the hook, but it perhaps goes part way to explain why that whole situation may have happened in the first place. And it happened because HE would have trusted her, would it not? After all, she was leading him on, she was deliberately giving out the message to him. He trusted her.

Lox, what if *she* had decided to make *him* the victim?

Now, there's a thought...



Don, drugs never came onto my horizon, ever. I never drank, still don't, hate the taste of it, ugh..I loved the fashions, the music, have only happy memories of being a teenager. Carefree days spent with family, spent with friends. Shopping in BIBA, bell bottom jeans, bell bottom sleeves, long hair, peace, gentleness...If you're going to San Fransisco, be sure to wear a flower in your hair....ah, those were the days my friend, I'd thought they'd never end..

But they did...because hate replaced love when the 80s hit town..and yuppie selfishness and greed kicked in, Thatcher, the Miners Strike, Class War, class hatred...and it began to go down, down, deeper and down...the backlashh against feminism was there too, with the men's magazines rising up once more..and suddenly are teenagers were drinking like never before, sex replaced love, harshness replaced gentleness, bitchiness replaced thoughtfulness...and a new century was born....

I never realised, until this thread started, that when it comes to making love, men don't have any rights at all. Everything is now from the woman's point of view, and what she says goes. Women control sex and that's just the way it is.

I always thought it was a 'shared' thing, but I guess that's me being a dumb unnatural blonde again. Ho hum......

And yes, McGrath's post illustrates the point very well.


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Subject: RE: BS: "Some rape victims should take blame"- ??
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 06:50 PM

""I never realised, until this thread started, that when it comes to making love, men don't have any rights at all. Everything is now from the woman's point of view, and what she says goes. Women control sex and that's just the way it is.""

Once again, you go crashing past the point without seeing or understanding it.

Men have exactly the same rights as women!

They can say YES to sex, or they can say NO!

They can say NO, and expect that to be accepted.

What they cannot do is to override a NO, and force the issue.

THAT SEEMS FAIR AND RIGHT TO ME!

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: "Some rape victims should take blame"- ??
From: Emma B
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 06:53 PM

"She may know him, she may not, but he has set out deliberately to rape her, for whatever reason he may have in his head."

No NO NO! Lizzie - this is simply NOT how the majority of 'acquaintance rapes' occur

"Lox, what if *she* had decided to make *him* the victim?"

Lizzie the succubus is the stuff of legend - neither men NOR women on the whole behave like this; I have more respect in my little finger for both sexes than you have demonstrated here

- you do both sexes a diservice to promote this image

Men have rights
women have rights

I've spent a lifetime working for the rights of both in employment etc

You make me sad and very angry Lizzie I don't think I can say anything more right now.........


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Subject: RE: BS: "Some rape victims should take blame"- ??
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 07:00 PM

"lizzie, you and i obviously know very different men!!!!!!!!!!"

I am extremely fortunate, jade, I have never been treated badly, sexually, by any man.

But one of my friends hanged himself after he was wrongly accused of having a relationship with one of his female pupils. I've stated that before. She was miffed that her affection was not being returned in any way at all, and so she made her accusation, withdrawing it later. Paul ended up taking his own life.

It has made me think very differently about many things.

Her actions set in action a chain of events that I'm sure she never once gave thought to, or ever intended to happen. He was the victim of those actions, not her.



"i was going to go into yet another real life, what i have seen senario, but to be truthful, i am that upset with you making excuses for men to not control themselves, i am NEARLY lost for words."

I make excuses for no-one, because everyone, at the end of the day, is ultimately responsible for their own actions.

Men should control themselves, and the vast majority do, **but so should women.** That's all I'm trying to get across. (And again, I am NOT talking about the kind of rapes that have happened to people in this thread.)

I'm not putting blame on to ANY person in this thread either, I'm talking hypothetically, that's all...trying to point out that sometimes it is not just women who become the victims, because if you have an unscrupulous or vindictive woman, and yes, they do exist, just as those types of personality do in the male population too, then men can also be in danger.

Devil's Advocate, that's all..


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Subject: RE: BS: "Some rape victims should take blame"- ??
From: mauvepink
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 07:13 PM

"But, that would mean that you're expecting women to be responsible, and you've stated that women don't need to be responsible because there is no excuse for rape, no matter HOW they behave towards a man, no matter WHAT they do to him. "

Lizzie: show me where I said women do not need to be responsible please in any of my posts.

Responsible or not: the result should not be rape. It's really that simple.

Women making malicious claims is totally wrong. There is no excuse for that either.

... and there is NO excuse for rape.. ever.

mp


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Subject: RE: BS: "Some rape victims should take blame"- ??
From: jeddy
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 07:18 PM

can i ask the OP and MODS for permission to close the thread now please?

we have been round this before. and come to a pleasant understanding.

i am NOT trying to curtail freedom of speech here, but i think we have covered everything, more than once. all it is doing now is making them feel angry and defencive.

ta.
jade x x x


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Subject: RE: BS: "Some rape victims should take blame"- ??
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 07:19 PM

"I disagree 100%."

So which bit did you disagree with, Lox? Do you really think that there is a certain limited amount of blame when something bad happens, and that it takes away from the perpetrator's guilt if the victim is also blameworthy? And that applies in all kinds of crime? A sort of seesaw.

Maybe it avoids that kind or misunderstanding if we make a distinction between "guilt" and "blame", with "guilt" being properly restricted to the perpretator. This would be consistant with seing a victim, in some circumstances, as eligible to carry a degree of "blame".


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Subject: RE: BS: "Some rape victims should take blame"- ??
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 07:20 PM

This is the whole paragraph of what I said, Emma, not just the second sentence. I have not mentioned 'acquaintance rape' there at all. You did.

"The majority of rape cases are absolutely clear cut, in that a woman has been raped by a man, through no fault of her own. She may know him, she may not, but he has set out deliberately to rape her, for whatever reason he may have in his head. She bears no guilt for that whatsoever. It is entirely his fault. I have no sympathy for the rapist and every sympathy for his victim/s."


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Subject: RE: BS: "Some rape victims should take blame"- ??
From: mauvepink
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 07:24 PM

akenaton says "Funny how Mr McGrath's post was completely ignored by our baying "libs" "

I never answered it because I only just saw it and do not accept the premise of shared responsibility for the theft.

Fact is you SHOULD be able to leave your keys in a car without someone assuming the right to steal it because the owner was being careless. The owner left the keys, that is all. No-one has a right to them help themselves.

It's not being Lib, to use your latest term, its common sense. Stop blaming the victims of crime for the crime or even being part way responisble. If it were not for thieves we would not need locks at all. Too many people think they can just help themselves...

and when that comes to sex it's called rape. No responsibilty should be put on the victim

mp


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Subject: RE: BS: "Some rape victims should take blame"- ??
From: vectis
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 07:27 PM

I listened to the start of "The Moral Maze" on BBC Radio 4 tonight at 8 whilst on my way to a meeting and was horrified by the attitude of Claire Fox who appeared to be condoning rape.

I didn't hear it all, I almost imploded as it was, but will attempt to hear the rest on iPlayer.

God help us all if this is a generally held set of values.


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Subject: RE: BS: "Some rape victims should take blame"- ??
From: bobmac1
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 07:28 PM

There isnt a very clear cut answer. Lots of viewpoints have been aired here and the more it is debated, the closer we can get to some kind of truth.
Essentially, it may be down to a law of will.
I dont think that there is a single post here that doesnt relate to societies perception as a whole as to what constitutes 'rape'.
We are living more and more in figurative times, and in such a topical debate, each faceted reckoning is pregnant with possibilities. It is an unknown dilemma, what with societies influences on the projections of youth.
Today on the telly I heard about a man who raped and smothered his niece.


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Subject: RE: BS: "Some rape victims should take blame"- ??
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 07:29 PM

We have not begun to cover everything. There are serious cross-cultural issues here. There are substance abuse issues. There are handicapping condition issues. There are issues that vary with the age and frankly IQ and EQ of the people involved. It seems very arbitrary and frankly controlling to request a closure when a person just decides something is done. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: "Some rape victims should take blame"- ??
From: Emma B
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 07:30 PM

"The majority of rape cases are , in that a woman has been raped by a man, through no fault of her own. She may know him, she may not, but he has set out deliberately to rape her, for whatever reason he may have in his head. She bears no guilt for that whatsoever. It is entirely his fault. I have no sympathy for the rapist and every sympathy for his victim/s."

Lizzie, it has been explained to you by other people as well as myself that the majority of rape crimes are NOT 'absolutely clear cut'

The vast majority of rape crimes fall in the category of 'acquaintance rapes' whether you accept facts or not - and I know you mostly chose to prefer to ignore them

It is very much these situations that are the subject of the survey that prompted thread


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Subject: RE: BS: "Some rape victims should take blame"- ??
From: mauvepink
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 07:31 PM

Jeddy...
"can i ask the OP and MODS for permission to close the thread now please? "

I am not sure if I have any say but if the Ops feel it should be closed I have no objection. There is always the option of not coming back and looking at it at all Jeddy but if you think it should be closed I will not stand in the way.


The discussion as such is complete.

I'll abide by other's wishes on this

mp


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Subject: RE: BS: "Some rape victims should take blame"- ??
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 07:32 PM

Fact is you SHOULD be able to leave your keys in a car without someone assuming the right to steal it because the owner was being careless. The owner left the keys, that is all. No-one has a right to them help themselves.

I absolutely agree. But you'd be bloody stupid to do it. And I am sure that your family would blame you for that stupidity when the family car went missing.

I specifically said that I did not accept the idea of "shared responsibility", with its implication that the guilt of the perpretrator is someehow less if the victim is seen as at fault as well. In fact I think it is nonsensical to think that way.


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Subject: RE: BS: "Some rape victims should take blame"- ??
From: mauvepink
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 07:41 PM

McGrath of Harlow...

Thanks for your quick response but my reply was actually to akenaton as to why I had not replied to the post. You did indeed state what you say.

The point you raise about the family blaming me over the car though is a good one. Nevertheless, that does not make the fammily right. The whole balances on how we have come to see the victims of crime as somehow being complicitous in the act against them. That view is wrong, but I quite agree, it's how many see things.

The guy leaving his keys though is not at fault in reality, the theif is totally responsible for their acttions. We need to make a shift away from holding victims of crime in some way part responsible for the crimes against them.

In essence you said that I believe,

Thanks again

mp


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Subject: RE: BS: "Some rape victims should take blame"- ??
From: jeddy
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 07:43 PM

i wasn't trying to deny anyone a voice on this subject.

to me it seems that the subject itself has gone round and now it is a case of i am right and you are wrong.

of course it is wrong for anyone to manipulate anyone else regardless of sex and having sex.
it is my choice to come back and look at this thread, i could walk away. the problem is because it is a subject so important to me, it means i feel a duty to stand up for those who are too truamatised to do it for themselves.

i a sorry if this reads like i am attacking anyone, i am not! just passionate. it just feels like an excuse to rp each other to bits.

thanks for your support to close the the thread mp, it is appreciated. i am glad you understand what i mean.

take care all
jade x x x x


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Subject: RE: BS: "Some rape victims should take blame"- ??
From: mauvepink
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 07:56 PM

jade... I never saw it as you attacking anyone. It was a simple request. I responded in favour. I have clearly stated the thread was not about opening wounds for people. I am happy for the salt to be removed :-)

I have never been raped. I have had a sexual assault comitted against me. I actually let that guy off, as he got banned from the club the assault took place, because I did not want the fuss that would have followed from a trial. That feared me more than him. I was a coward. What I should have done is report him because he may have gone on to assault other women.

From some of what I have read on this thread I would be seen as being responsible for the assault because I happen to be on the door of that club that night. I was there so must have been looking to get touched up and assaulted, despite warning him three times to remove his hand... until I pushed him away and he fell down some steps into the street. He said he was calling the police on me and I asked he go ahead... enough people had heard me tell him to get off. He was then banned and that was the last of it.

A trial would have been like being assaulted again. I did not have the courage then. I would now.

And so it is, I have never been raped. I am a lucky one. I have no idea how much pain and hurt it causes. I have seen the damage it does to lives.

If some are going to add insult to injury by saying there is some partial responsibility then shame on them.

The thread can close for sure. I want no-one hurt by it for sure

and good luck to you for the future Jade xx

mp


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Subject: RE: BS: "Some rape victims should take blame"- ??
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 08:02 PM

"Lizzie: show me where I said women do not need to be responsible please in any of my posts."

I've just trawled through all 7 pages, mp. (Yikes!)

You are absolutely correct, you did NOT state that, and I therefore apologise to you unreservedly.

We agree on more than we disagree, in actual fact, but the one thing we're going to have to agree to disagree on is that I feel there *are* some scenarios where blame/responsibility should be shared, because the actions of one person, can lead to the reactionn of the other.


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Subject: RE: BS: "Some rape victims should take blame"- ??
From: mauvepink
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 08:06 PM

Fair enough Lizzie...

That is often the case in discussion and opinions :-)

and apology accepted though not expected

thanks

mp


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Subject: RE: BS: "Some rape victims should take blame"- ??
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 08:08 PM

"...From some of what I have read on this thread I would be seen as being responsible for the assault because I happen to be on the door of that club that night. I was there so must have been looking to get touched up and assaulted,.."

Eh?

Who said that women should be raped, purely for being 'there'.

I've just read the entire thread, so I think you're mistaken on that one.


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Subject: RE: BS: "Some rape victims should take blame"- ??
From: mauvepink
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 08:18 PM

"Who said that women should be raped, purely for being 'there'. "

The suggestion has been made that by being in certain scenarios, or dressing a certain way, etc, you should bear some of the responsibility for what happens to you. Vis a vis if I had not been on the door of that club this jerk could not have put his hand up my skirt...

You see how suggesting someone is being irresponsible can be so misleading and wrong? I know I did no wrong that night. I certainly never lead him on or encouraged his attentions. He just thought he could as he liked...

Nonetheless, had I not been on that door...

And to take some of the suggestions about responsibility that have been expressed here I am therefore guiilty. I know I'm not. I use the experience to illustrate a point.

What harm happened me that night? I went away feeling dirty and also since that I let other women down that night. That bastard is probably still harrassing women and doing as he likes when he is drunk. We live and learn :-(

mp


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Subject: RE: BS: "Some rape victims should take blame"- ??
From: Amos
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 08:38 PM

MP:

No problem, duck. I understood where you stood, I was just being grouchy about the thread name. I'm fine with the modified one, though!


A


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Subject: RE: BS: "Some rape victims should take blame"- ??
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 09:09 PM

The point you raise about the family blaming me over the car though is a good one. Nevertheless, that does not make the fammily right.

I find it inconceivable that in the circumstances I outlined the rest of the family would not be quite entitled to blame the twit who left the keys in the car door.

And I am sure that in a slightly different scenario where it was a car he had borrowed, and the owner took a civil case against him, the law would say the same.

But in neither case would he be seen as guilty of theft.
.......................................

This isn't drift - but I think there is some value in examining the question of whether a victim can bear responsibility in a less fraught context than rape.

It still appears to me that the seesaw view of blame is being accepted uncritically. I think it deserves to be examined because under examination it does not stand up. We are responsible for our own actions, and that responsibility (and any consequent guilt) is not reduced by the fact that other people are also responsible for their actions.


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Subject: RE: BS: "Some rape victims should take blame"- ??
From: jeddy
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 09:51 PM

ok a couple of songs since this is a music site.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJmBlO-YWcM



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIToeKQEwPs


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Subject: RE: BS: "Some rape victims should take blame"- ??
From: Lox
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 10:32 PM

McGrath,

I reject entirely the suggestion that a woman is ever to blame in any way whatsoever for being the victim of rape.

I understand your point, I don't accept your premiss.


The semantics regarding "guilt" "responsibility" and "blame" are all irrelevant.


People on here are talking about rape victims with an image of a young fantasy figure enticing an innocent dumb animal into his or her den and then being surprised when he devours her.

Ths has no bearing on reality.

The reality is that you cannot know who will be a rapist until they try to rape you. Anyone, wearing any type of clothing - a suit or a hoodie - could be a rapist.

Most men aren't and sexual banter and flirtation goes on healthily and humorously and trustingly between young women and men in social and cultural gatherings the world over just as they have for hundreds of years.

Most men know that being flirted with is not the same as being given consent for sex. I flirt all the time and women of all ages and backgrounds love it. I flirt with my female friends because its a natural way to recognize the differences between us without getting all hung up about them so we can relax.

If some wanker decides to interpret that kind of natural playfulness as consent to do what he wants then that does not mean that the rape victim "should think twice before behaving that way again" - bollocks!

It means he should be locked up and left to negotiate a settlement with big bubba in the showers!


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Subject: RE: BS: "Some rape victims should take blame"- ??
From: jeddy
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 10:39 PM

well said lox! i just don't have the patience right now to deal with this properly. and besides, you are always so much more eloquent than me.!!
love
jade x x x x


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Subject: RE: BS: "Some rape victims should take blame"- ??
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 10:42 PM

"I reject entirely the suggestion that a woman is ever to blame in any way whatsoever for being the victim of rape."

It ain't rocket surgery. It's so obvious it almost doesn't need stating.


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Subject: RE: BS: "Some rape victims should take blame"- ??
From: Lox
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 10:49 PM

In addition,

It is of utmost importance that rape victims do not add to their already considerable trauma by believing for one second that it was their fault.

Imagine that someone you trust rapes you out of the blue, and then you are told "it was your own fault".

Being that low you might well be tempted to believe it.

You might wonder how you didn't see that your attacker was the way they are. You might blame yourself for it.

But in fact, we live once and we have the right to be free in our hearts and minds and we should not skulk around in the shadows shrouded in grey and trusting noone in case, as a result of being "irresponsible" we cause ourselves to be attacked by a man who is simply acting out his natural male animal programming.

No! You enjoy your life, you assert your right to express yourself how you will, and society evolves to protect you over and above the criminals that want to see you subjugated and humiliated.

Instead of saying "well you have to accept responsibility" society says "we will not tolerate violence".

I don't know what else to add.

I keep being reminded that we still have a long way to go.


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Subject: RE: BS: "Some rape victims should take blame"- ??
From: GUEST,999
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 10:57 PM

That guest post was me.

Very long way to go. Could not agree more.


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Subject: RE: BS: "Some rape victims should take blame"- ??
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 Feb 10 - 03:22 AM

Lissie if you think the prime focus of the hippy philosophy in the 60s was clothes and flowers you merely underline your inability to think.


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Subject: RE: BS:
From: GUEST,Lox
Date: 18 Feb 10 - 03:52 AM

If a woman goes to a party wearing a very short skirt and flirting with everyone, then goes with a man to a secluded area and makes out with him, and he turns nasty... it's quite possible she could've prevented that. She put herself in an unsafe position.


One point that hasn't been raised is, the most popular sexual fantasy among women is ... yes you guessed it, rape.


While there are women who cry 'rape' after consensual sex, the real reason that the conviction rate is so low is because it is a crime to which there are usually no witnesses and where it is a classic 'his word against hers' situation.


The only way that the government will secure more convictions is if they change the burden of proof in rape cases. This would be a terrible thing for British justice and could see more innocent guys go to jail.



I'm bothered by the implication that if a man and a woman are really blotto, and have sex, that only the woman can be a victim. Is he not a victim of sexual assault?
If the sexual integrity of women is so important in our society, then surely women have a responsibility to guard and preserve it?


I also resent the feminist expansion of rape to cover every sexual situation including feeling emotionally pressured into having consensual sex.
    The identity of this poster appears to be fraudulent. Since there have been so many responses to it, I won't delete it - but it does not appear to have come from the regular poster with the user name "Lox."
    -Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: "Some rape victims should take blame"- ??
From: mauvepink
Date: 18 Feb 10 - 04:15 AM

"We are responsible for our own actions, and that responsibility (and any consequent guilt) is not reduced by the fact that other people are also responsible for their actions."

I know what you are saying. I agree what happens and how the guy would be seen. But the deep philosophical argument on him being blamed partially because he left his keys is not fair. The fact remains we should all be able to leave our doors open and not have strangers enter and steal our property. I know in the real world people and insurers do not hink like that, but I am on about a black and white situation. The theif is wholly rrspinsible for the theft at the very basic level, not the victim.

Accepting anyone who is innocent of being responsible for crimes against them seems wrong to me. Again, I know the real world, but the basic premise stinks. In a decent world ff you make an error you should not have to expect to pay by having a crime committed against you. It's not a decent world I know.

WE can let this diversion to the thread go though as I think we know where both stand on it :-)

mp


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Subject: RE: BS: "Some rape victims should take blame"- ??
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 18 Feb 10 - 04:21 AM

There is something worrying about the terminology being used here with things like "leading him on", "making him aroused" etc. and the presumption that it's reasonable to assume that a guy will not be able to restrain his lust and rage if you "lead him on" or "make him aroused".

As Lox say's flirting between adults in natural, exploring intimacy is natural. In everyday human behaviour - especially during the early stages in a relationship - there is no strict dividing line between complete asexual behaviour and full on sexual intercourse.

If I approach my partner for a kiss and a cuddle on the sofa, we go to bed, and he thinks we are going to do it, but I then say "sorry dear, actually I'm too shattered/getting a headache/my period's just started/whatever." Or maybe he just hasn't showered and is smelly and it turns me off, so I change my mind. Or any amount of other real life everyday scenarios.
What happens next with this sexually, emotionally and psychologically healthy and balanced man that I've "made aroused" and "lead on" and made him think "I'm gagging for it"? Not forgetting that I'm also half naked and in the same bed as him! AND fully responsible for having initiated intimate touchy things with him?

If he thinks "You prick tease, I'm getting mine" climbs on top, pins me down, and forces himself on me sexually - am I partly to blame? Or doesn't a normal healthy man do that, is it only twisted little cocks who are incapable of restraining their rage and lust?


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Subject: RE: BS: "Some rape victims should take blame"- ??
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 18 Feb 10 - 04:49 AM

From Lox:

"If a woman goes to a party wearing a very short skirt and flirting with everyone, then goes with a man to a secluded area and makes out with him, and he turns nasty... it's quite possible she could've prevented that. She put herself in an unsafe position."

But..but....but....hang on, that's what I've been saying all along, Lox, yet you and so many others have lambasted me for it!

Why??????

You're saying that she is, in part, responsible for bringing that situation into being.

How come *you* can say that, and folks tell you how eloquent you are, but if *I* say it, everyone goes apeshit?


From Lox:

"I'm bothered by the implication that if a man and a woman are really blotto, and have sex, that only the woman can be a victim. Is he not a victim of sexual assault?"

But..but...but.....READ some of my posts, Lox and you'll see I've said that exact same thing! Sometimes, men also end up the victim.


Is it me? Or is there something mega-weird going on here?   Could someone please explain why I said the same thing as Lox, er...before he said it and hatred thrown my way, but he's allowed to say it too and nowt happens?

Yeesh, anyone would think there's a witch hunt going on!


"If the sexual integrity of women is so important in our society, then surely women have a responsibility to guard and preserve it?"

Yes, yes, YES! But again...but but BUT??????? I said that! That women need to respect themselves and think about their behaviour more deeply.


Oh fuck...this place drives me nuts at times.


And mp, nowhere has it been stated that a woman deserves to be molested purely for just 'turning up', nowhere. That's taking things entirely the wrong way and adding fuel to the fire, isn't it?

And I always apologise if I've said something about someone which is wrong. Thing is, folks never return that to me...but heyho... I've asked several times in here for folks to put down something they alleged I've said, but no-one has, nor have they apologised for misrepresenting me in that way. Ho hum.

From Lox: "I also resent the feminist expansion of rape to cover every sexual situation including feeling emotionally pressured into having consensual sex."


I agree with that. I read an article yesterday where it said that men should get verbal agreement at EVERY stage of the sexual act, before proceeding....

I mean???????????

Come ON!

If you don't want to be with the guy, then don't get into bed with him.

If you DO want to be with him, then get into bed, wrap your arms and legs around him, hold him tight, tell him how much you care about him and have the night of your LIFE!

Yeah, I can here the women..."Lizzie, there's something wrong with you!"

No, there isn't.   

I've just never ever got into bed with a man for whom I didn't have deep feelings...and I've not got into bed with hardly any men in my life, for that very reason.

(Boy, am I going to be lambasted for THAT one!)

To me, the 'making love' part of it is the final cherry on the cake, as it were...and it's not a cherry to be given freely, if you'll pardon all the talk about cherries. But so often women now hop from bed to bed to bed, and it means absolutely nothing to them, or to the men either...

I think that in promoting that way of life we've lost something incredibly special, I really do. It makes me feel sad.


Richard, I kind of woke up towards the end of the late 60s/70s. I was too young for the early sixty's stuff, that went over my head, but hey, I've kinda made up for it since, haven't I? I mean, to the point where you now tell me to shut up about politics, social awareness an' all. You can't have it both ways...

Anyway, maybe we need to verify that 'Guest Lox' IS actually Lox, although he must be, because otherwise the 'Guest' wouldn't have been allowed to remain. I'm just massively puzzled as to why he can say things like that and no-one breathes a bubble, but I say them and a waterfall of anger spills out...Really puzzles me.


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Subject: RE: BS: "Some rape victims should take blame"- ??
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Feb 10 - 05:37 AM

I said if there was anything new I may come back:-)

Does that very question not tell you LOADS, Lizzie. Presuming you are both singing off the same hymnsheet. Everyone can hear what Lox is saying. No-one understands you. Do you not think it may be the way you tell 'em?

No insult intended. Just a piece of advice, which I know loads of people have given you already. Loose the noise. Cut the crap. Start relating to real world facts and put your case simply without the histrionics. Maybe then people will hear what you say more clearly? Oh, and drop the 'me, me, me!' image. Not everything can be related to anecdotaly.

As I said. Just advice. Take it or leave it.

Cheers

DeG


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Subject: RE: BS: "Some rape victims should take blame"- ??
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 18 Feb 10 - 05:47 AM

Nope, that doesn't add up, David, I'm afraid. Nice try though. :0)

Lox has told me off for saying exactly the same things he's now saying.

People have taken almost the same sentences he's written, that I wrote and lambasted me for them.

Still, maybe they're going to take issue with Lox as well. I guess they'd have to really, else it makes them look a little er...oooh...er.....biased?

Trust me, my posts don't need to come with subtitles. ;0)


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Subject: RE: BS: "Some rape victims should take blame"- ??
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Feb 10 - 05:54 AM

Trust me, my posts don't need to come with subtitles

Trust me, they do! See the thread on John Mayer...


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Subject: RE: BS: "Some rape victims should take blame"- ??
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 18 Feb 10 - 06:09 AM

Guest Lox is very obviously the famous identity-thieving troll, considering that everything he posted is the opposite of what the real Lox says and thinks - which is probably why no one has responded to it - they are waiting for the Mods to take it down.


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Subject: RE: BS: "Some rape victims should take blame"- ??
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 18 Feb 10 - 06:12 AM

Well, 'Guest Lox' has made 1,792 entries, none of which have been removed.

Er..... ?


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Subject: RE: BS: "Some rape victims should take blame"- ??
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 18 Feb 10 - 06:20 AM

"Guest Lox is very obviously the famous identity-thieving troll, considering that everything he posted is the opposite of what the real Lox says and thinks - which is probably why no one has responded to it - they are waiting for the Mods to take it down."


That's confusing, because I've just checked a few of the near on 2,000 posts from 'Guest Lox' and they're very similar in thought to the thoughts of   'Lox' even to the point of him getting REALLY angry about 'ake' (akenaton)

And WHY, if it's a fake name have near on 2,000 posts been allowed to stand, Ruth? Surely the 'real' Lox would have something to say about that..and I know that Joe wouldn't let an imposter use someone's name in vain for very long at all, once he'd been informed about that.


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Subject: RE: BS: "Some rape victims should take blame"- ??
From: Emma B
Date: 18 Feb 10 - 06:29 AM

"That's confusing, because I've just checked a few of the near on 2,000 posts from 'Guest Lox' and they're very similar in thought to the thoughts of   'Lox' "

If Lox has to post as a guest for some reason - like he is unable to log in - then he will still use his member name in that instance

As you point out Lizze the content and views expressed in those posts are entirely consistent.

If however, in the middle of a discussion, someone completely reverses a strongly held viewpoint, without heading towards Damascus,
and those 180 degree changed views are from a 'guest' it would be wise to be a bit suspicious rather than assume he'd suddenly seen the 'light' until confirmed - or otherwise

Still confused?


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Subject: RE: BS: "Some rape victims should take blame"- ??
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 18 Feb 10 - 06:47 AM

Of those two thousand posts, nineteen hundred and ninety nine might be from Lox, either sans cookie, or on another PC.

The two thousandth can still be from one of our regular shit stirring trolls.

Observe the way in which Lox's words have been reversed in meaning, the style and stock in trade of the mindless twerps who recently gave such sterling support to the BNP.

I'll believe that was Lox, only when he says so, logged in with his member's ID.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS:
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 18 Feb 10 - 06:59 AM

See how easy it is for someone to simply call themselves Guest: Your Name? It doesn't mean YOU've never logged in as Guest: Your Name. But it does mean that if someone wants to make mischief, it isn't hard. I could espouse views right now that are the exact opposite of Lizzie Cornish's, and others might well believe me. Unless, of course, they first engaged their brains.
    But THIS post is from Ruth Archer, who should know that she shouldn't be messing around with fake identities.
    -Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: "Some rape victims should take blame"- ??
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 18 Feb 10 - 07:08 AM

Joe, the 'Guest Lizzie Cornish' at 06.59am is not me. So if you could remove it, I'd be very grateful. And yes, I'll send a PM too, Joe.




But 2,000 posts in that name? 2,000 posts written by the same non-Lox person, that have been allowed to remain????? I'm just really intrigued as to why all those other posts have remained, Don, that's all. I mean, surely, if it was a well known fact on Mudcat that Lox has an impersonater around then every single 'Guest Lox' message would and should be vetted almost immediately, wouldn't they?

Who knows?


Anyway, that aside, I was still pretty perturbed at that article I found yesterday about the 'verbal agreements' at every stage of sex...how romantic is that? I don't get that, I really don't.


Article on Acquaintance Rape

..and taken from there:

"..Acquaintance rape remains a controversial topic because of lack of agreement upon the definition of consent. In an attempt to clarify this definition, in 1994, Antioch College in Ohio adopted what has become an infamous policy delineating consensual sexual behavior. The primary reason this policy has stirred such an uproar is that the definition of consent is based on continuous verbal communication during intimacy. The person initiating the contact must take responsibility for obtaining the other participant's verbal consent as the level of sexual intimacy increases. This must occur with each new level. The rules also state that "If you have had a particular level of sexual intimacy before with someone, you must still ask each and every time." (The Antioch College Sexual Offense Policy, in Francis, 1996)..."


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Subject: RE: BS: "Some rape victims should take blame"- ??
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Feb 10 - 07:15 AM

It's all to do with computer and web provider 'signature's', Lizzie. The mods here can tell where a particular message came from. They know that the 'Guest, Lizzie Cornish' you point out is not you because it is not from one of your regular computers. In the same way they know the 2000 posts by 'Guest, Lox' are from the real Lox and they will find out sooner or later if someone has impersanted someone else. Got it?

DeG


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Subject: RE: BS: "Some rape victims should take blame"- ??
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 18 Feb 10 - 07:17 AM

"I was still pretty perturbed at that article I found yesterday about the 'verbal agreements' at every stage of sex...how romantic is that? I don't get that, I really don't.
"

Err, it's "I want you to make love to me!", "let's make love?", "I want to make love to you darling.."

Romantic enough?


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Subject: RE: BS: "Some rape victims should take blame"- ??
From: Emma B
Date: 18 Feb 10 - 07:18 AM

"But 2,000 posts in that name? 2,000 posts written by the same non-Lox person, that have been allowed to remain????? I'm just really intrigued as to why all those other posts have remained, Don, that's all. I mean, surely, if it was a well known fact on Mudcat that Lox has an impersonater around then every single 'Guest Lox' message would and should be vetted almost immediately, wouldn't they? "

Lizzie please just listen ......

Many members are not always able to log in from wherever.
If they still wish to be identified with their post - or NOT have it deleted - they will attach their mudcat name to the post.

This has been very common practice on mudcat for as long as I've been a member at least

If however, someone perceives that another person is taking advantage of that situation to also post as Guest so and so - they then can approach Joe and request it be removed

The fact that 'Guest Lox''s posts remain in abundance would suggest they were were all legitimately written by him wouldn't it?

Got it?


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Subject: RE: BS: "Some rape victims should take blame"- ??
From: Emma B
Date: 18 Feb 10 - 07:20 AM

'The fact that 'Guest Lox''s posts remain in abundance would suggest they were were all legitimately written by him wouldn't it?'

Excluding this recent one which I presume he has not seen yet.


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Subject: RE: BS: "Some rape victims should take blame"- ??
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 18 Feb 10 - 07:22 AM

Or perhaps even "I don't want you do anything you don't want to, darling. Is this OK? How does that feel? Let me know if I'm going too fast for you...

*Communication* LC is a normal part of sex. If it's done in complete silence, I think you're probably not doing something right.


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Subject: RE: BS: "Some rape victims should take blame"- ??
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 18 Feb 10 - 07:34 AM

Nope CS, I totally disagree. If it's done in complete silence it's because there is absolutely no need for words in the first place, such is your love and trust for one another.   Hands, mouths and bodies can so often speak far more eloquently than mere words.

Of course people DO natter on when they want to, or laugh and splutter, but it's certainly not compulsory.

Gawd, we're living in a very strange world these days...I'm glad I'm an old, old woman and don't have to have all these stresses and strains. I'm glad I've still got my sense of humour and haven't been politicallycorrectised half to death!





Well, if the Mudcat 'Guest' system is tying in real 'Guest' posts, with false ones, surely it needs to be changed as fast as is possible.

I've written to Joe, about the bogus postings in my name and about Lox's ones. And I hope some of you have done the same, if you feel it's an imposter.

Not seen the BEBO me but it'll be there because I verbally attacked a bloke who'd posted some horrible things about Mudcat members, which I found whilst looking for some other info...and the Facebook one, yes, well, many of us have those I'm afraid. Facebook ain't interested though. The bastards.

And now, if you could stop using my name in vain, I'd appreciate it.
Thanks.

And Joe, could you also take that post of 07.22am off, please. Thank you.


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Subject: RE: BS: "Some rape victims should take blame"- ??
From: Emma B
Date: 18 Feb 10 - 07:40 AM

'And I hope some of you have done the same, if you feel it's an imposter.'

I have left that action for Lox himself to take Lizzie; it's my belief that not only can he speak for himself but that he should be allowed to do so as well

I had my reservations that his earlier post today was in fact someone attempting a 'wind up' which is why I didn't respond to it but sent a message to him on Facebook instead

As a wind up - it was very sucessful wasn't it - once you got your teeth into it!


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Subject: RE: BS: "Some rape victims should take blame"- ??
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 18 Feb 10 - 07:44 AM

"If it's done in complete silence it's because there is absolutely no need for words in the first place, such is your love and trust for one another."

OK so some really special people who the first time they 'do it' simply lay eyes on each other and their clothes fall to the ground and they have the most blissful night together without so much as a word being uttered! Great for them.

Then there's the rest of us who live in imperfect fumble land who communicate what we like and want with our lovers..


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Subject: RE: BS: "Some rape victims should take blame"- ??
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Feb 10 - 07:48 AM

I've written to Joe, about the bogus postings in my name and about Lox's ones. And I hope some of you have done the same

Way behind the times again I'm afraid, Lizzie. There have been umpteen discussions on the 'Guest' policy and many, many people have already made the point. It is, currently, Mudcat policy to accept Guest postings on existing threads. Guests cannot start BS threads but can start genuine music threads. Bogus postings by members posing as Guests, Guests posting as other Guests and memebrs with multiple identities are not allowed as I am sure you already know. If any of the rules are breached a mudelf will step up and fix it but it may not be immediate.

Hope that helps

DeG


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Subject: RE: BS: "Some rape victims should take blame"- ??
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 18 Feb 10 - 07:51 AM

"Well, if the Mudcat 'Guest' system is tying in real 'Guest' posts, with false ones, surely it needs to be changed as fast as is possible."

How? Guest posts allow you to post without signing in, and without a cookie being set. So someone (say, you) can log in as Guest Lizzie Cornish, but so can anyone else. Doing a search on the name Guest Lizzie Cornish will pull up all instances of that Guest id being used. That's a completely reasonable aspect of the Guest posting facility. Of course, it doesn't stop anyone, anywhere, using your Guest log-in to impersonate you. The solution is to always log in, so that it's obvious that any guest post isn't really you; or for the Guest post option to be removed by Mudcat altogether.


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Subject: RE: BS: "Some rape victims should take blame"- ??
From: Royston
Date: 18 Feb 10 - 07:55 AM

Can I just ask why registered members post as "Guest" anyway?

Why not just login?

If you have more than one computer under your control, you can be permanently logged in on all of them. If you use one not under your control, logout again afterwards and/or delete all cookies.


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Subject: RE: BS: "Some rape victims should take blame"- ??
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Feb 10 - 08:01 AM

Some browsers are set not to allow cookies, Royston. If it is your own or if you have admin rights you can change that setting. If it is, for instance, a works computer and you do not have rights to change browser settings you will never be able to log in.

D.


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Subject: RE: BS: "Some rape victims should take blame"- ??
From: jeddy
Date: 18 Feb 10 - 09:12 AM

i am completely with crow sister on the talking during sex thing.

especially in a long term relationship. it is healthy to talk about every asspect of your relationship. why should making love be any different? surely talking about things means it could make it better for both of you. there must be loads of old fashioned women out there that just lie back and put up with their husbands.

if it is a new relationship, and someone asked me at every stage if i was happy to carry on, or started then want reassurance, i would see that as being considerate.wanting to please, and do things the way i want them. the same goes for me, asking what and how the other person wants things.

this is where and what makes sexual assult and rape so different. i don't want to keep using the word victim. ok the one who is assulted, does not have their wishes considered.

i too read that last lox post as an imposter. but can you confirm that all guestlizzie cornish posts on this thread have been you lizzie? just to make sure. thanks.

i also agree with DeG. the post where you explained things from your pont of veiw, without judgments and hatred was alot easier to understand. in fact you were complimented on it, by me and others.

have a great day all
jade x x x


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Subject: RE: BS: "Some rape victims should take blame"- ??
From: mauvepink
Date: 18 Feb 10 - 10:52 AM

Lizzie Wrote "And mp, nowhere has it been stated that a woman deserves to be molested purely for just 'turning up', nowhere. That's taking things entirely the wrong way and adding fuel to the fire, isn't it?"

I never said you said it but reading some of the stuff on here has sure made me revisit what is being said. Fact is, had I not been there then I would not have been molested. By some of the logic on this thread that makes me culpable. I know I am not. I was using it as an example.

Where is that line drawn and by whom?

The original arricle also intimates some views similar. I was not adding fuel I was simply using a personal experience to highlight the point. In this case you have supported me 100% and said it was wrong that guy did that to me. Though I did have a miniskirt on that night, heels, a great make-up! I was not inviting anyone at all. It was about me feeling good about myself is all.

If you want an apology then do have one but I was not singling you out for any comment there.

:-)

mp


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Subject: RE: BS: "Some rape victims should take blame"- ??
From: mauvepink
Date: 18 Feb 10 - 11:08 AM

Well we added the ?? to the title. But who changed the topic to Guests Signing In? May I respectfully suggest if you want a thread on that subject you go make one, whilst you are signed in of course! ;-)

I am guilty of lots of posts as Guest, mauvepink as I am not always signed in. Sorry for the PM's I missed. I have answered them now...

Back to topic I hope

mp


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lox
Date: 18 Feb 10 - 02:31 PM

Hi folks.
Emma B is not just a pretty face.
Sorry to inform you that there is an imposter on the forum.
I did not write the following post.

    From: GUEST,Lox - PM
    Date: 18 Feb 10 - 03:52 AM
In which someone apeaks of short skirts at a party.
I don't care what has been said in the post, the views expressed are not mine and neither is the language used.
Clever imitation of my line breaks has occurred, but sadly thats as far as the "cleverness" extends.
Unfortunately the imposter is a facile brainless dick and as such will never be convincing.
To ensure that there is no further confusion:
FROM NOW ON I WILL ONLY POST WHEN LOGGED ON.
If a moderator or anyone else sees a guest post with my name attached they may assume that an imposter is pretending to be me.
I suspect either our resident BNP troll, our resident fuckwit, or thge white knight as they are the only ones with a motive.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Joe Offer
Date: 18 Feb 10 - 02:33 PM

Yes, Guest lox is a fraud. So is Guest Lizzie Cornish. Now, please go back to the original topic of discussion.
Any further posts in this thread about identity questions will be deleted.

This thread is no longer open to Guest posts. All subsequent Guest posts will be deleted.



-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Feb 10 - 04:12 PM

I'm still puzzled by the assumption that somehow the guilt of a perpetrator of a crime - any crime - is somehow reduced or "shared" if the victim is seen as having acted in a way that made that crime more likely to take place.

It's disempowering for one thing, to use a modish expression.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: jeddy
Date: 18 Feb 10 - 04:40 PM

to compare the crime of rape to someone steaing a car is like comparing it to someones body.
now yes if you leave the keys in the car, you are a prat. BUT if that car gets nicked then runs over a bus stop full of people in no way is the person who left the keys responsible!! just because you have tempted a thief does not mean they have to take it.

this is an unequal comparison!

you see, everyway i have thought to try and explain to people how it feels, i can only go so far. things are just things. if you buy something and you have made a mistake, even if you can't get your money back it comes no where near the betrayal and the hurt you feel when being raped and the terrified panic you feel afterwards.
if you have ever been in a serious accident, it might come close i guess although i never have been.
jade x x x


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Feb 10 - 05:16 PM

Mr McGrath is of course correct.

and I was correct in saying that we are basically arguing over a form of words.
Everybody here thinks the crime of rape is inexcusible and it is ridiculous to say that the victim NEVER act irresponsibly..

Mr McGrath is also correct in noting that the irresponsibility of the victim,does not diminish the culpability of the criminal.

On the subject of guest postings, I can say catagorically, that I have only ever used one name to post on this forum.
If I have ever posted as a guest it was in error through not being logged in......any of the administrators can vouch for this.

Neither do I stalk other posters or use abusive language to others who are not in discussion with me.

For some time, I haven't been responding to Lox, mainly because he had not the guts to apologise when he wrongly attributed remarks to me, then abuse me for writing them.

Although I do not respond to Lox, he has pursued me using words like "fuckwit" ect and now has implied that I have been writing posts under his name.....I have much better things to do with my time, than try to wind up someone so obviously "distrubed".

I now await two apologies....and perhaps a few well chosen words from the mods....Thank you...Ake


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: gnu
Date: 18 Feb 10 - 05:39 PM

Oh.... it all lies in the definition of "responsibility".

Sorry. I misunderstood. My apologies.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Amergin
Date: 18 Feb 10 - 05:51 PM

I am posting a link to an article that came out in yesterdays Vancouver Voice (that's Vancouver, Washington). It is related to the discussion here. The picture was taken by a dear friend of mine.

Working The Streets


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lox
Date: 18 Feb 10 - 06:06 PM

Here Ake.

Me Explain so you get it.

1. Each person reponsible for OWN actions.

2. Each person NOT responsible for actions of Anyone else.

3. Rape is action of Rapist

4. Rape is 100% responsibility of Rapist

5. Rape victim did not do anything wrong.

6. Rape victim 0% responsible for Rape.


Fashion preference has nothing to do with it.


Hey, by the way Ake, I think I see Godot coming - maybe if you hang on long enough you'll get an apology from him too.


As for following people around, you simplify every issue down to one thing - the "liberal agenda".


Then wherever a political discussion on ANY TOPIC begins you bang on about it till the paint begins to peel.

You support every reactionary standpoint going yet claim to be "radical".

I ignore you till the usual predictable shit comes out and then when it does I attack it because it is vile self indulgent poison and you never see beyond the end of your own ego and bitterness but are happy to condemn swathes of people different to you to convenient categories because you haven't the wit to engage in ANY meaningful or constructive way.

You start showing actual respect for the people of this forum and the world outside ans i might consider not spitting when I see one of your posts.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Feb 10 - 04:06 AM

I'm still puzzled by the assumption that somehow the guilt of a perpetrator of a crime - any crime - is somehow reduced or "shared" if the victim is seen as having acted in a way that made that crime more likely to take place.

Oddly enough, considering what I have said before, I do agree with the sentiment. But (you knew there was one didn't you:-) ) ...

1. In the case of rape, if the victim is shown to be complicit in any way, a clever solicitor will get the penalty reduced or, worse still, get the case dismissed.

2. Because the rapist will always know that he can use that defence, every case of rape will have that test applied. Even where it is blatantly untrue. This will make
   a) The victim less likely to report it and
   b) The victim feel even worse when a clever solictor gets going

3. In the case of car crime and robbery without violence if the victim is accused of complicity then there is little harm done. In the case of rape there can be far more serious consequences.

While the comparison between car theft and rape can serve as an example that is as far as the analogy can go. Stealing a vehicle and stealing someones self respect are miles apart.

Does that explain my feelings on this particular aspect any better?

Cheers

DeG


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lox
Date: 19 Feb 10 - 04:37 AM

Dave,

In addition to what you say, the idea of a rape victim being "complicit" is in itself a total fallacy.

If I comply, or agree, then I am NOT saying NO.

A rape victim, at some point says NO but is raped anyway.

That is how we define rape.

One person wants sex, the other says NO, the first decides to do it ANYWAY.

So rape by very definition is NON COMPLIANT.

The key word is CONSENT.

If she doesn't give consent then she is NOT COMPLICIT and cannot be said to be complicit in any way.

To clarify this rubbish about how "its just a question of usage of words" or whatever it was:

A rape victim is never to blame, is never responsible, is never at fault and is never complicit.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Feb 10 - 05:29 AM

No disagreement about complicity. A victim of a crime is never "complicit" in the crime, even if they might have done something which made it more likely that the crime would take place. That is true whether it is a rape, a mugging, a burglary or a car theft. The fact that courts sometimes seem to think in those terms is monstrously unfair, especially in the case of rape.

There is an enormous difference between making a stupid mistake and committing a vicious crime, and sometimes the language of blame and fault can blur that difference. If a girl gets drunk, and a man takes advantage of this to rape her, it is completely wrong to imply that by getting drunk she was asking for it, and that the guilt of the man is in any way reduced. No one would be likely to suggest this kind of implication in a case of male on male rape.

But imagine a slightly different scenario, in which a friend had spiked the victim's drink as a joke and then drifted off - would we say that the friend had no kind of responsibility for the unintended events that followed when a third party moved in? Not the kind of responsibility that in any way reduces the guilt of the rapist, but the kind to cause bitter regret.
......................

As for the notion that a perpetrator's guilt is somehow reduced if there is seen to be some blame attached to another person, that would seem to imply that participants in a gang rape were less guilty than an individual rapist, which is surely absurd.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 19 Feb 10 - 06:06 AM

A person may still say "yes" but be raped if the ostensible consent is obtained by force or fraud - there is a case from Victorian times when a very ill-informed girl was told by her singing teacher that he was opening an airway to improve her singing. It comes to my mind every time someone says "sing from the diaphragm".


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Feb 10 - 08:37 AM

Agreed, McG, 'The fact that courts sometimes seem to think in those terms is monstrously unfair, especially in the case of rape.' But not everything is fair - even the law at times:-( If it was fair the law would reject all arguments but whether the victim said yes or no. As it stands the defence of the accused rapist often relies on portraying the victim as the type of manipulative siren that has been discussed before. The only reason they do this is to get the case rejected or, at worst, get the sentence reduced due to mitigating circumstances. While we fully understand that the accused is either guilty or not, the judiciary will use that grey area of 'Guilty but because...' to lessen the punishment or to get the case tried on a lesser charge.

So - No, the argument does not actualy reduce guilt but it sure as hell makes the perpetrators life a lot easier:-(

DeG


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Emma B
Date: 19 Feb 10 - 09:01 AM

"Senior barristers deliberately attempt to portray women complainants in rape trials as "sluts", and as promiscuous and of low character, lawyers have admitted in a study."


Ten experienced rape trial barristers revealed their courtroom strategies in the study, Prosecuting and Defending Rape - Perspectives from the Bar.

Its author, Professor Jennifer Temkin, of Sussex University's school of legal studies, said: "The defence counsel seem to have a set of strategies.
The principal strategy is to undermine the woman's personality. For example, they try to make out that the woman has acted foolishly - they try to show if she didn't consent she has brought this all on herself and she is to blame.

Professor Temkin added: "Another technique is to routinely bring up the issue of her clothing."

One male barrister talking about a case recalled: "This girl has gone into a bikers' pub wearing a miniskirt and a see-through shirt. I don't think they, young girls, realise the effect of their appearance on young men. Guys get turned on if they can see through the girl's clothes. Dress is significant

Professor Temkin said there was "a kind of lack of ethical awareness" in the barristers' methods. She said that defence solicitors frequently used women barristers as part of their strategy to defend alleged sex offenders. Eight of the lawyers interviewed were women. "This is seen as giving a message to the jury that as a woman she believes the man

The conviction rate for rape fell from 24 per cent in 1985 to 9 per cent in 1997. This is believed to be partly attributable to the big increase in the number of acquaintance or "date" rapes, where it is very difficult to prove that there was no consent"

From 'Barristers admit blackening rape victims in court'

news article in 200
Plus ça change


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Emma B
Date: 19 Feb 10 - 09:02 AM

2000 of course !


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: frogprince
Date: 19 Feb 10 - 10:36 AM

Emma, that's enough to bring on measures of both anger and sorrow. Would that there was some realistic way to move toward an actual
"justice system", in place of the current "legal-career-point-scoring" system.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: frogprince
Date: 19 Feb 10 - 10:43 AM

A few years ago, an older judge in Wisconsin proclaimed that he would never convict a young man of rape so long as young women kept running around dressed the way they do. The young victim in the case had been wearing blue jeans and a sweater. The one good thing that came of it was that, in this instance, the judge was driven off the bench.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Feb 10 - 10:45 AM

It is scary indeed. More worrying still is that a conviction rate as low as 24% then dropped to 9:-( Any idea what it is now?

I believe in France, or so I am told, that they do not have procecuters and defenders - They have two people both trying to find the truth. I don't know if it makes a difference but it sounds fairer.

DeG


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Monique
Date: 19 Feb 10 - 11:55 AM

David, in France rape is felony so the trials are heard in Assize court


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Emma B
Date: 19 Feb 10 - 01:18 PM

In 2006/7, there were more than 13,000 rapes reported to police in England and Wales.
The number of rape convictions was 50 per cent higher in 2007 than in 1997, but still only 6.5 per cent of reported rapes lead to a successful prosecution

Statistics form the Government Equalities Office

The only European country with a lower conviction rate than the UK was Ireland this is despite that, in 2003, the law was changed so that it is no longer a defence for a defendant to show he believed a woman consented to sex.
He must now prove that such a belief was reasonable.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Emma B
Date: 19 Feb 10 - 01:39 PM

The rate of conviction for rape in England and Wales also varies from region to region

Postcode lottery in rape convictions 'getting worse' The Guardian, Wednesday 10 June 2009

The breakdown of some figures by police force area can be found here

It is reported that the majority of convictions for rape resulted from an admission of guilt by the defendant, whereas less than one quarter of all those charged with rape were convicted following a successful trial.

Additionally, between half and two-thirds of rape cases did not proceed beyond the investigation stage.
The majority of victims decide to withdraw their complaints, while high levels of rape complaints are essentially ignored, with reports pointing to scepticism on the part of the police and "the view that the victim lacks credibility".


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 19 Feb 10 - 01:50 PM

Although criminal law is not my thing I am sure (ish) that evidence of the previous sexual "misconduct" of the victim was legislated inadmissible some years ago, and I thought that the same applied to clothing.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: paula t
Date: 19 Feb 10 - 02:24 PM

The argument that "some" women deserve or ask to be raped makes me so angry!I was attacked at the age of 16 and my crime was to walk alone through a park at teatime on a summer evening.Luckily a passer - by saw the guy jump me and chased him off before I was hurt, but that terror is still there.

Rape has absolutely nothing to do with sex and everything to do with inadequacy and a need for power.I think it is insulting to men to suggest that if a woman dresses provocatively she is causing herself problems. The men I know would never dream of raping a woman - no matter what she was wearing or how she behaved , or how far the situation had progresses before she said "No".The rapist will choose anyone as long as they are in the wrong place at the wrong time.

I remember a discussion many years ago with some year 11 girls (15 -16 yrs)during a sex education lesson. One girl said that "boys can't stop if they get excited". I waited for the objection from the other girls, but they merely nodded agreement.It turned out that quite a number of them believed that boys were physically incapable of "stopping". I asked them what would happen if a boy was with a girl at home, and his parents walked into the house.Surely he would be able to stop then, no matter how far things were "progressing?".There was a stunned silence, then a loud outbreak of choice swear words. Many girls, it seemed ,had fallen for the myth that a boy being disappointed and frustrated was the same as being physically incapapable of self control.We had a long discussion about not getting ourselves into difficult situations in the first place, but having the absolute right to say no at any time.

Sorry to go on here, but no means no, and that is not dependent on the dress, age or behaviour of an individual. After all, who defines "provocative" dress and "sluttish" behaviour? That could merit a thread of its own.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Emma B
Date: 19 Feb 10 - 02:55 PM

Richard, the report I posted at 9.01 today was published in 2000

Section 41 of the 1999 Act replaced section 2 of the Sexual Offences (Amendment) Act 1976 and came into effect in Dec 2000
The new legislation offered complainants in sexual offence cases better protection against unnecessary cross-examination on their sexual behaviour.
It provides a more structured approach to decision-taking and sets out more clearly when evidence of previous sexual history can be admitted in rape cases

Evidence of previous sexual behaviour can only be used with the leave of the court
The court must be satisfied that to refuse leave would result in the jury, or the court, reaching an unsafe conclusion on a relevant issue at trial.
The courts will also refuse permission if they believe that the real main aim of evidence claimed to relate to a relevant issue is simply to undermine the complainant's credibility.

Other measures in the 1999 Act, to protect victims of rape and other sexual offences from being cross examined by the defendant in person in court, were implemented on 4 September 2000.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: jeddy
Date: 19 Feb 10 - 06:06 PM

well reminded emma. i had forgotten that the accussed used to be able to question the accusers themselves. it is no wonder with all the red tape and fear that people don't want to report rape.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 08:31 AM

As I said already, I think we're all agreed that in the vast majority of cases the crime of rape is committed by drunk, deranged, or manipulative men...no one in their right mind would seek to excuse that.

There are a few cases which are a little different, like the one I cited, where the woman went to a strangers house, spent the nighjt in bed with him, had sex(which he said was consentual or as near to consentual as they could remember)....the next day the woman reported the man for rape.

Is this rape? and if so, does the woman really bear no responsibility for what occurred?


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 08:46 AM

Ake. If it was rape then no, she does not bear any of the blame and she is only responsible in the way that a car is responsible for being stolen by being there! If it was not rape and she did indeed consent then there is no argument. Not only is she responsible but she is also despicable for blaming an innocent man. I don't know which is true. I was not there but, as everyone keeps saying, the victim should never be classed as responsible for ANY crime.

Cheers

DeG


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 08:52 AM

Well if not responsible for the crime(Mr McGrath has explained why this cannot be so)...Is she not responsible for her own safety?


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: mauvepink
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 08:56 AM

"Is this rape? and if so, does the woman really bear no responsibility for what occurred?"

IF it is rape then she bears no responsibility

IF it is not rape and she has cried it, then shame on her and I think she should be charged with malicious prosecution type laws. I do not know the terms. No woman or man should ever cry rape unless it is true. That does not mean that you could not believe in all honesty you have been raped, but than in actual fact you were not.

The case you cite has enough grey areas for the likelihood of not being able to prove beyond a reasonabl doubt (unless other foresnsics are found to prove it was a forced sex situation).

There is NO excuse for a woman making a false and malicious case. That is why the man's name should be protected until after any trial. He should be afforded annomimity on the grounds you are innocent until proven guilty. Unless it is known he really is the guilty party beforehand.

mp


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 08:59 AM

I agree, but in those circumstances does a woman bear no responsibility for her own safety?

The above scenario must be quite common especially if both have been drinking.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 09:04 AM

Is it not irresponsible to put herself in such a legally "grey" area?


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Emma B
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 09:07 AM

No one has argued that the cases of 'acquaitance' rape that make up the majority of rape situations is an easy one to prosecute as it is the word of one person against another - the figures I have quoted for the number of allegations never proceeded with bear this out.

But ake! you wrote -

"had sex(which he said was consentual or as near to consentual as they could remember)....

The problem here ake is that 'he' said the sex was consentual you do NOT say 'she' said it was, although by the context (reporting rape the following day) we assume she said it wasn't so we are back to one person's word against another.

Is the suggestion here that neither could remember with any accuracy? (you use the word 'they') - in which case was the man assuming consent even if the woman was very drunk or even unconscious - was he sober enough to justify his belief that the sex was consentual?

The reality here is that a case of this sort (his word against hers) would almost certainly never get beyond the reporting stage WHATEVER the actual circumstances.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: mauvepink
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 09:08 AM

"Well if not responsible for the crime(Mr McGrath has explained why this cannot be so)...Is she not responsible for her own safety? "

We all have to be resposible for our own safety if we have the mental capacity to do so. Some people do not and they have special protections in law. However, no-one should be raped because of being irresponsible. Irresponsiblity is not a crime in the main and if it were a lot of us would be in jail at some time in our life.

Neglecting personal safety should not detract from the crime of rape. Rape is one and same no matter how it is committed. Rape is the crime. The victim should not be made to feel responsible for it in any way. I am sure many rape victims spend a lot of time thinking they should have sone something different before they were raped. That does not mean they are guilty in any way and it is typical of victims to look for reasons to blame themselves often for what happened to them.

What they do not need is others, who have no idea what went on, pointing fingers and being all moralistic.

ALL rape victims have the same thing in common. They were raped. Only the circumstances differ that lead up to it. No, they are not responsible for being raped even if they have let their guard down a bit.

IMHO

mp


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 09:11 AM

I agree entirely, Ake, that everyone is responsible for their own safety but I fail to see why acting foolishly should be punished by rape!

Cheers

DeG


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: mauvepink
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 09:12 AM

"Is it not irresponsible to put herself in such a legally "grey" area? "

Most of us never really know what that grey area is until it's too late and a crime is done against us. It then becomes a grey area.

If we never entered grey areas I doubt we would ever do much for we never know what is truly going to happen to us.

mp


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 09:14 AM

Getting into bed with a stranger is putting yourself in what could very easily become a "legally grey area"


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 09:22 AM

I think most women know that, and take the appropriate precautions.

Of course none of this EXCUSES the crime ...please dont repeat that as it was what I meant.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 09:23 AM

That should read.....as if it was what I meant ...sorry:0)


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 09:26 AM

Getting into bed with a stranger is putting yourself in what could very easily become a "legally grey area"

So is parking your car in a new area, Ake, but I have vener heard that plea in mitigation for taking without consent.

I have to qualify I fail to see why acting foolishly should be punished by rape! There is one instance. If we vote for this government to continue we deserve to get shafted...

Sorry. Bad taste, but I couldn't resist it.

DeG


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: mauvepink
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 09:26 AM

"Getting into bed with a stranger is putting yourself in what could very easily become a "legally grey area""

There seems to be an underlying premise in this line of resoning that, if you doi get in bed with a stranger, you deserve all you get That undercurrent is totally wrong and points to being judgemental

If you get in bed with a guy and you have no condoms between you and you proceed to sex, then end up with an STI or being pregnant, one could suggest it serves you right for not being more responsible. That said you could use a condom and still end up pregnant. I'll go that far. BUT what it does not mean is that he has a right to Rape you. Grey area or not. Being in the grey should not ever justify rape. There is no onus on the victim. THe perpetrator is wholly responsible.

(and I am only talking about acquaintance type rapes here)

mp


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 09:30 AM

Of course the point I have been trying to make, is that in this life, we all at some time have to bear some of the responsibility for what happens to us.

We shouldn't walk out on the motorway blind drunk, nor get into bed with a stranger drunk or sober.

That is not excusing the crime, but it is simply having a responsible attitude to ones own safety.....physically and legally.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: mauvepink
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 09:31 AM

Bad taste or not, there is a point to be made...

"If we vote for this government to continue we deserve to get shafted..."

There is an element of consent there in that by voting for them we know what will happen to us.

If I know a man to be a serial rapist and I then go to his house and get in bed...

I think the difference is significant.

Do we deserve still to get 'shafted' to use your term?

We all make mistakes. Some never learn from theirs

mp


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 09:34 AM

But surely you also know that going to bed with a stranger..drunk, increases your chances of being raped, many times


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: mauvepink
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 09:36 AM

"That is not excusing the crime, but it is simply having a responsible attitude to ones own safety.....physically and legally. "

So what difference does it make to being raped?

You are still edging toward putting some onus on the victim for getting raped. That is where it becomes a fallcious argument. Being silly does not equate to being responsible for or deserving rape.

By repeatedly pointing about resposibility you seem to be implying that with rape victims then do take some of the blame. Can you see how that is occurring? NOTHING mitigates rape. End of.

mp


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 09:36 AM

True, MP, true.

I don't think we will get any further just by restating what we have already said over and over again. ake. How about we just leave it at we disagree whther the issue of the victims foolishness should be brought to bear, legaly or morally, in the case of rape. At the end of the day, as the high proportion of acquitals shows, the law is indeed on your side. All I am saying is that I find it unfair but my opinion matters very little when it comes to the judiciary!

Cheers

DeG


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 09:45 AM

Actualy - you know what I have just realised. For the first time. as far as I know, our resident supporter of minority causes is, in fact, in the majority. If 75%+ of rape cases result in acquital then the bias is defintely pro-man. Yet we are being told that us men get a rough deal when it comes to rape legislation. Maybe I should change sides! I'm not used to being a minority. Help!

DeG


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: mauvepink
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 09:55 AM

"our resident supporter of minority causes"

To whom do you refer ake?

mp


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: mauvepink
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 10:00 AM

"To whom do you refer ake?"

Apologies...

I meant "to whom do you refer DeG?"

mp


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Raedwulf
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 10:54 AM

Without attempting to read through the whole 440-odd posts that this already extends to, I read this article ere I ever saw this post. If what I say only repeats points already made, my apologies. Nevertheless,

"Some rape victims should take blame"

That is not what I recall reading.

"they should accept some responsibility"

THAT is almost what I read.

A sickness of the modern world is the abrogation of responsibility. Everything is "My rights"; nothing is "my duty". Everything must be someone's fault; yet nothing, seemingly, could ever be "my" fault. And fault itself is an on/off state - blame can never be shared. Either it's my fault (of course it's not my fault; how dare you suggest such a thing!), or it's your fault (of course it's your fault; how dare you suggest otherwise!). No grey areas.

The first few posts imply, perhaps accidentally, just such a state of affairs. Pink's comment, "a great many women actually go [to bed] for kisses and cuddles.... it can happen in a bed too. Are they to be raped for it? Lots of women are looking for loving even when they may appear to be being sexual."

Let me turn that around. "Lots of men are looking for sex, even when they may appear to be loving." Why is it that the man is automatically blamed for any misunderstanding between the sexes? It's really not rocket science. Communication requires at least two parties involved. When communication becomes confused, both parties must examine their own role. It [b]cannot[/b] be acceptable to say "My actions must be beyond reproach; it [b]must[/b] be your fault". Whether we speak of rape or anything else, surely this is so?
"Date rape using drugs is an offence. Is alcohol not a drug?"
"Date rape using drugs" implies the unwilling consumption of said drugs. Alcohol? First, define "drug"; second, prove that the consumer bears no responsibility for their own actions (note: no gender specified here)..

Ake's comment, the 5th of the thread, sums things up quite nicely. Blanket statements about such matters are unwise. Everyone is capable of making mistakes. Whether someone is superficially an assailant or a victim, this still remains true! Blame? Start thinking of it as a sliding scale that is rarely anything more than a muddled grey. Black & white is rarely a given.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Raedwulf
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 10:55 AM

*Ack* 410-odd posts...


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 10:56 AM

PM sent MP.

DeG


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: mousethief
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 01:17 PM

I don't understand the connection that some people wish to draw between women behaving foolishly before a real rape, and a false rape claim. As if they proved something, or one had something to do with the other other than that they both involve sex and contain the word "rape". What's up with that, guys?

O..O
=o=


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 06:14 PM

DeG - if you vote for the conservatives you had better grab your ankles and grease your fundament, because the old Etonians will do what they have always done.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Joe Offer
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 07:50 PM

I deleted the last several posts from this thread because they were just puerile name-calling. Please stick to the topic of discussion.
Thanks.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Raedwulf
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 07:52 PM

Yaaaaaaay Joe! And I was worried you were... not here anymore... ;-) My apologies, but you know what I'm like (if you remember, anyway).


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lox
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 07:53 PM

"But surely you also know that going to bed with a stranger..drunk, increases your chances of being raped, many times"

By this logic, being in bed with a stranger sober is less dangerous.

Or being in bed drunk with someone you know is less dangerous.

Or being out in public drunk - or sober - is less dangerous.


In fact, there is one and only one factor which puts you in danger of being raped ...

... it is whether you are with a rapist or not.


In which case the circumstances, including fashion sense, state of drunkenness and location are of minimal significance.


If someone, of their own free will, says they would like a shag, then the can be said to have consented.

If someone says no then they cannot be said to have consented.

If someone is drunk and sleepy, then a man with an eye for the bleeding obvious will have little trouble noticing that they aren't gagging for coitus.

If someone in thius state gives no consent, then there is no indication that there was any reason for sex to happen except as a result of the rapists opportunism.

There are no grey areas.



Where there were only two people present and we cannot be sure wht actually happened and what was actually consented to or not is a different matter.

That would be about finding out what actually happened.

If we found out that she said no or was too drunk and sleepy to either say yes or to stop him, then we know she was raped.

Again, none of this has any bearing on whether or not a rape victim is responsible for the crime committed against her.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lox
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 07:55 PM

"our resident supporter of minority causes"

Women are not a minority.

Duh!!


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Raedwulf
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 08:06 PM

"There are no grey areas."

Your black & white world must be... very different from the one that I inhabit. I'm not saying that I could not hear a "No". But you too glibly dismiss too many things, and are too ready to attribute blame.

Which way it suits you to attribute that blame, I am indifferent to; mostly I object to the fact that you will blindly point the finger. People are people, and when things go wrong, people are at fault. Male, female, assailant, victim; these things are, all too often, not clear cut.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lox
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 08:12 PM

"Getting into bed with a stranger is putting yourself in what could very easily become a "legally grey area" "


No.


You accuse others of playing with words.


Yet you are playing a childish witless wordgame with "responsible"


Being responsible for your own safety has nothing to do with being responsible for a crime.


Mixing the two concepts up shows nothing but ignorance of the meaning of the word in those two COMPLETELY seperate contexts.


This Thread is about judgemental women who blame other women for being raped saying "they brought it on themselves"


Your pathetic pseudo intellectual fiddle faddling with the word responsible is meaningless and adds nothing except a substanceless puff of doubt as to who is to blame in a rape.



By your logic, women who are raped in the workplace by their powerful boss are responsible for the rape by putting themselves in an environment where they can easily be blackmailed.

By your logic, a women would therefore be bringing it on herself by going to work and must take the blame.


Note - I did not say you think that, I said that your argument would support that view - and this indicates that there is a flaw in your argument.

Namely, you misunderstand the difference between personal responsibility and criminal responsibility.

I believe you misunderstand intentionally as it suits your worldview which is consistently reactionary.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Raedwulf
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 08:21 PM

Who are "you" talking to? I assume it's not me; equally I don't know who you think you are being offensive to (quite clearly, that's what you intend). Your use of the word "responsible" is no more responsible than that of whoever you are challenging. Responsible is NOT an on/off state.

"I believe you misunderstand intentionally as it suits your worldview..."

I suggest you take a *very* close look at that statement - you may be as guilty as whoever it is you accuse.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lox
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 08:22 PM

Raedwulf.

Let me clarify.

There are no grey areas when it comes to consent.

Lets say I misunderstand what a girl means ...

Lets say I believe she wants to have sex when she actually doesn't ...

In that Instance, I might make an honest mistake.

But I then have to try and have sex with her.

If you have ever had sex, you may remember that this is a process which involves the removal of clothes, and then a certain amount of jostling for position and other necessary physical requirements like engorgement of genitalis and lubrication etc.

And that is a very simplified aand reduced picture.

It would be impossible during this process not to become aware of whether a woman was consenting to sex.


Men who rape know they are raping.

It does not happen by accident, remote control, or without the knowledge and intent of the rapist.

In rape, it is a black and white issue.


The only problem for the oursider is knowing, without witnesses, what actually did happen.

But that is a seperate issue.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lox
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 08:25 PM

Raedwulf,

You asked:

"who are you talking to"

The clue is in the quote at the top of my post.

The person who I quoted was clearly not you.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Raedwulf
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 08:58 PM

I'd bang my head on the desk.. but it wouldn't achieve anything useful.

"The person who I quoted was clearly not you." Well, eff me, didn't I say I didn't think it wasn't? And what is so hard about making it clear who EXACTLY it is you are responding to? It's a big thread; 420+ posts; maybe it'd be a good idea to make things clear? Some people do come to things late after all. I *think* you may be responding to Ake. But I'm not absolutely certain because I'm trying to engage in the thread without having to wade through every single post in it. I'm sure I bear some culpability in that, but you can understand why, yes? ;-) Nevertheless, my point about your language remains the same - you are being deliberately offensive toward "whoever" the opposition is. It might be emotionally satisfying (mea culpa!), but it doesn't prove anything, however much you may wish it to.

As to "There are no grey areas when it comes to consent", I have no personal experience of the scenario you describe. I do have some experience of the weird & wonderful ways in which two people can interpret the same event, and describe the same situation. I even have some experience of the different ways in which ONE individual can describe an event at different intervals.

If you think the the world is sufficiently B&W to sustain your point of view, good luck to you. In my experience, it is NOT. Since my experience is very real to me, I object to being told it is not. Hence, I am happy to see shades of grey, and to allow others their greys, even if I do not see the shades they do. I object to being told that my grey is not real. If you see what I mean.

Unfortunately, your declarations are not as sustainable as either of us might wish them to be.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: skarpi
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 09:07 PM

no one should be raped , I am a father of a girl who ....
and this is a soul murder.....this will follow her for the rest of her live urrrrrrrrrrr and this touch me alot ....it hurts ...
and you may know that if I had it in me I would have done something
horrible to that man , but I did not ..being on the same level
as that man is not going to take this back .

...
enough.....


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lox
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 09:12 PM

My declarations about the actaul physical prerequisites for sex to take place are concrete.

1. You need to remove clothes.

2. you need to ne in a position that makes penetration possible.

3. In consensual sex, the female is engorged.

4. In consensual sex the female is awake.


The human body is a big heavy thing that takes strength to undress and move around if it is not being cooperative. In addition, the Vagina in its non-engorged state is extremely constricted and would take an determined and violent effort to penetrate.


These are concrete physical obstacles to sex with a non consenting female, be she either comatose or fighting back.


These physical realities combined make it very clear that a rapist must be determined, ruthless and coldblooded in the execution of their crime.


My statement stands that men who rape know they are raping.

As for all your comments on the subject of me and what you have to teach me about myself, You have clearly decided, after appearing out of the blue, to take up an adversarial stance against me, and to make character judgements about me after having engaged wwith me on two or three posts.


On reflection, It is you who are making unsustainable claims.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lox
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 09:14 PM

Last post directed at Raedwulf


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lox
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 09:33 PM

I will add one more thing.

Nowhere do i espouse a philosophy that the world is black and white.

Nowhere do I espouse the view that there are no shades of grey in life.


The very essence of the dea that there can be shades of grey in life includes the idea that sometimes things are black and white.


For example, on a black and white tiled floor.

Maybe the white tiles are dirty, and maybe the black tiles are dusty, but we know when we are on a black tile and when we are on a white one, and we know there is no grey tile seperating them.


Another example is in the case on consensual/non consensual sex.

You know when its consensual because you are given consent, and this consent is reflected in a womans words, in her actions and in her state of arousal.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: jeddy
Date: 20 Feb 10 - 09:56 PM

right... *wades back into thread pulling up sleeves*

raewulf, welcome to the thread, it is a long thread and things have been said numerous times, but having butted in on another long thread without reading back i know how you feel!
let me repeat my self, for your benefit.

i have been raped.
i got into bed, with no intention of having sex, he knew that as was indicated by the fact that apart fom my trousers and shoes, i was dressed. that and the rapist in question knows i am gay.
i had known him awhile, had mutual friends, and had been in his house before but not stayed over.

lox is completely right, there are certain things that need to happen before a man and woman can have sex. in my case, and thats all i can draw on here, HE ripped off my underwear. i tried to cover myself and had my hands held, while he....

as if that wasn't enough of a signal that i didn't want to, while..... i kept saying i didn't want it!

now apart from trusting the wrong person, by getting into bed, to sleep, which i have done before and since. what happened was NOT my fault!

sorry to anyone reading this that feels uncomfortable and it is too much, but folks that say that there any excuses for rape need to understand, BEFORE anything happens to them or someone they love.
as skarpi knows, you don't have to experiance something first hand to be able to empathise.

whether drunk, aroused, angry or frustrated, there is no excuse.

it doesn't make me feel dirty anymore, just angry. not at HIM strangely, but those here that can't or won't see that a woman is NEVER to blame for being raped.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 01:36 AM

Jeddy's unhappy experience, for which I have the utmost sympathy, clearly falls far on what one might call "the wrong side of the line".

~~ But saying this surely implies that there is such a line ~ & not just a line, but a "grey area" ~ of disputable width perhaps, but of undoubted existence.

Am I alone in detecting a somewhat rebarbative self-righteousness in the posts of those on these threads who are so pertinaciously denying the very existence of such a 'line' or 'grey area', of whatever width it may be held to be?


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 01:54 AM

To elaborate a little on that last post of mine:~ There may well be occasions when the woman did not actually resist the man's arousal techniques, did not verbally express reluctance, permitted penetration tho without active encouragement. Then, next day, regretted that the intercourse had occurred, remembered that she had, tho being somewhat passive, not actually given positive consent. And then been led by these regrets to make an accusation of rape on the grounds that she had not positively consented ~ this accusation being made in what at this stage appeared to her as good faith, and not as any sort of vindictive false accusation.

I consider the above to be a perfectly possible putative scenario; and one moreover which would definitely represent a "grey area" of the sort which some of the more positive asserters on this thread keep insisting does not exist and cannot possibly exist.

Would any of such care to challenge such a"grey-area" identification?


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Royston
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 04:35 AM

MtheGM, you describe a situation where a woman effectively consents to sex and then changes her mind.

That is a situation in which a woman is NOT raped. That is nothing to do with the title of this thread.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 06:12 AM

Royston ~ Your word "effectively" is, in my judgment, equivocal and tendentious here ~ so I will obviously remain in disagreement with the concluding couple of sentences of your reply. She thinks, retrospectively but in good faith, that she did not consent, so that, she thinks, she WAS raped. So it has everything to do...

Who agrees with my assessment of such a situation as I have rubricated; or who thinks Royston's (to my mind and I speak purely IMO obviously) unconsidered and perverse knee-jerk dismissal of it, justified?


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Royston
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 07:14 AM

No, M, you describe consent (passive or otherwise) followed by a change of the mind, a regret.

That is not rape.

That is nothing to with the the title of this thread.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 07:16 AM

"now apart from trusting the wrong person, by getting into bed, to sleep, which i have done before and since. what happened was NOT my fault!"

jeddy, I'm a little confused.

Do you mean that you have put yourself at risk of possibly the same thing happening to you again by putting yourself into that exact same situation once more, but with a different person?

Please don't misunderstand me, I am in no way blaming you for what happened originally, but I'm just concerned as to why you may be willing to risk it happening again.

If I have misunderstood what you meant there, then I apologise.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: mauvepink
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 07:25 AM

I have not denied there being possible grey areas in some scenarios. Most are extremely worrisome, for both parties, given the scenario you make MtheGM.

Personally, while I can see that she has not positively consented, she made no attempts at resistance either. How would the man have any clue without always asking, is it now okay for us to proceed to penetration? What a passion killer that would be, albeit a sensible request.

Very often people will be in a situation where no sex is the purpose of a kiss and a cuddle. But with that comes the lighted fires of passion for both and they progress. Things happen and go forward and, with no actual requests to have sex, they proceed to have intercourse. No implicit permissions have been given by either party. They werr both agreeable to it continuing by their very own actions. No resistance from either. If she later thinks "Wait a moment, he never actually asked me if I wanted that, so ikt must be rape" I think she is wrong. I do not think him a rapist either.

With no force or no refusal how can it be rape? This suggests that rape may not just be about consent per se, but also showing some actual refusal to having sex. One could argue if she dos not say no and is a willing party to the sex then that is the case. A retro "I never gave permission even though I enjoyed it and wanted it" would not be rape I think.

Of course each individual case is different and each has to be taken on merit. But in your scenario, given she was a willing party and only after some thought remembered she gave no actual consent, he has not raperd her. How could he know? The only thing that would stop that is to make it law to ask immediately before penetration... is it okay to proceed?

Even then you will get cases where she wants him to stop. If she states that and he carries on, then it is rape. But retroactive accusations of willing parties I suspect the courst would stay clear of.

Acquaintance rapes must come in all sorts of situations. There are massive grey areas I think. But the charge of rape, while not fully bound on consent, would then at least have to rely on sone refusal. Refusal then invokes the removal of any possible consent so it would not have to be said.

My head hurts...

mp


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: mauvepink
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 07:35 AM

Lizzie wrote "Do you mean that you have put yourself at risk of possibly the same thing happening to you again by putting yourself into that exact same situation once more, but with a different person?"

I am of the opinion that we must trust Jeddy to be able to judge for herself what she does and who with. What happened her was terrible but she needs to pick up the pieces and get on with life. Seems to me that is what she has done. Allowing what happened her to stop her staying with friends and having a social life actually allows the power to stay with the rapist. By getting on with it and returning to her normal routines she is effectively lessening his effects, and therfore power, over her. She is to be commended. I am not sure I could do the same.

I would liken it to someone who has had a bad crash in a car on ice. Does that mean they should never ever get in a car again and drive when it is icy?

Jeddy got back in the saddle, it sounds like, and I think she has done well to do so. How brave and empowering I hope it is for her. She trusted someone Lizzie who let her down. She got raped by the betrayal of that trust.

How marvellous that she can still treat people with trust and get on with her life. She should not have to answer nor justify her continuance in normal life in my opinion

mp


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 07:41 AM

Yes, not all of us act as though all men are potential rapists.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 08:09 AM

Thank you, mp. Royston I don't think your denial of the existence of such a thing as a 'grey area' will really stand up, you know. I still think your gloss on my scenario is a 'mind made up so don't confuse me' sort of reaction.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 08:12 AM

Consent requires a state of mind. If a person is incapable of forming an intention then they cannot consent, but drunken consent is still consent.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 08:13 AM

In general an intention can be inferred from action or inaction, but not conclusively, and subject of course to statute.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 08:23 AM

if you vote for the conservatives...

No issue with that, Richard, but I would substiture conservative with 'any of the bastards'. Trouble is, whoever you vote for, the government always get in:-( However, moving on...

Can someone explain to me this 'grey area' in terms of was consent given or not; was the victim raped or not and was the accused guilty or not. While I fully accept that circumstances may differ and there may be, in certain circumstances, mitigation I do not see how it fits in with rape. I can see that a murder may be commited in self defence or due to extreme fear. I can see how theft may be commited due to abject poverty. But in what circumstances is the desire to have sex life-threatening?

DeG


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 08:34 AM

I agree, mp, jeddy doesn't have to answer. I wasn't meaning it in a cimpulsory sort of way, more kind of thinking out loud.

"Consent requires a state of mind. If a person is incapable of forming an intention then they cannot consent, but drunken consent is still consent."

Then.......is it not best for women to stop the out of control drinking and alcohol abuse that's happening at present? Or am I looking at this wrongly again.....

Does Richard's statement there, bearing in mind he's a lawyer, not scream out to women, and all those who care about them, that personal responsibity should be paramount in certain situations?

(And again, just to clarify, I am NOT talking about women who are raped through no fault of their own, stone cold sober, innocently going about their daily business)


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 08:35 AM

Oops....'compulsory'


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: jeddy
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 08:42 AM

M the MG, the senario you describe ( sorry if this wasn't you but someone else, my memory is not my strongest attributte) is clearly not rape. it is regret, i wish we haven't done that last night.
if no force has been used either phyisical, or by incapcitation. then it cannot be rape. consent doesn't always have to be verbal. even if she doesn't take the leading role, but makes things easier for him by willing opening her legs makes her a part of what is happening. regretting something then changing her mind after the fact, still does not change what it was at the time.
i HATE women who do that! they are dangerous, not only to the man/men in question but to those of us who have been raped or assulted.

i want to say thanks to mp and cs for their support and their understanding. it means alot to me!

i don't have to explain anything, in fact i didn't have to say anything at all. it saddens me to think that people will always blame the innocent. if not blame then certainly think well she was there, so in part she desrved it.
i have told you all the things i have, not for your sympathy, but understanding. not for me but for the other women this has happened to that cannot get over it, or who are still going through the trauma.

let me explain what happed straight after, it might explain how i think about it.

i was only llowed out once i was dressed, he took the key out of the front door. i raced to the nearest phone box to call the police, i arranged to meet them by some shops a few streets away.
while i was waiting, a van that looked like his, turned up, i ran, someone (i think it was HIM) started to chase me, so i ran.
i ended up banging on someones door, i saw lights on and the tv flickering. i ahve no idea what road it was or who there were. i was lucky! they were a decent couple who phoned the police for me.

now i look back, i see that was a really stupid thing to do, i was scared out of my wits and was very open to more abuse. however, had something else happened it still wouldn't have been my fault, just a scared girl, in the wrong place.
the fault is always with the person who forces someone.

as for trusting others men afterwards, i had one extremely bad experiance, but that didn't cancel out all the good men i knew. in fact as i was asleep, the man tried it on, but took no for an answer the first time i said it. i wanted comfort and to feel safe, he understood that and was really good after i turned him down, i was crying and he held me. i didn't do it again after that but that was by choice, not because i was scared to.
i hope that by telling you these things, you show more compassion to others.
most things in life are not black and white. in cases of violence, sexual assult and rape, the aggressor is always in the wrong.
for violence i am not talking one hit and walking away. but the sort that is on the news pretty much constantly.

if the things i have said have changed anyones mind, or made them think abit, then i am happy.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 08:57 AM

Hmm..... it seems the fundamentalists are being repulsed.

and I dont mean you Jeddy....that must have been a terrifying experience, I am truly sorry it happened to such a kind and open hearted girl....you know I wish the best for you ...A


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: mauvepink
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 09:08 AM

"I am NOT talking about women who are raped through no fault of their own, stone cold sober, innocently going about their daily business"

This statement still has a tinge of being responsible for being raped if one is not sober. Being drunk cannot - must not - be used and allowed to be used in mitigation for being raped. That shifts the onus of the crime back to the vitim. That is wrong.

The rapists decides to rape, no matter what state the victim is in, and the responsibility for the rape MUST lie with the rapist.

At least, that is what I think and, I suspect, a great many more people here.

mp


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: mauvepink
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 09:17 AM

"Hmm..... it seems the fundamentalists are being repulsed."

Who, what, where, when? Set alone the statement has no validity as there is no yardstick to measure it by

mp


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 09:26 AM

For fuck sake MP.....NOBODY is excusing the crime of rape!

What people are saying is that EVERYONE bears some responsibility for their actions.

In the case I cited the woman was not responsible for the rape, but in my opinion was responsible for getting herself into a situation where rape was likely to occur, or a legally grey area, in which it would simply be her word against his IF rape took place.

The crime is always wrong, but the cicumstances leading up to the crime, may be the responsibility of the victim.

It is the responsibility of everyone to keep themselves safe, whether it is avoiding being run over, or avoiding making things easy for the rapist.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: mauvepink
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 09:33 AM

akenaton I detest threads where people get personal and start calling each other names. I try my best to keep on topic and not allow personalities to play a part. What people do to each other on here has little to do with me save that it upsets me to see people fall out.

That said... I would appreciate you keeping a civil tongue in your head when you address me. I do not use foul language to make a point, as I have sufficient control over my tongue and respect for myself that I do not have to resort to it, and, as I have never sworn at anything that has issued from your postings I respectfully request you afford me the same. All swearing at me does is tell me the person I am speaking to has no dignity for thgemselves and no respect for me.

You are entitled to have no respect for me. You have no need to swear at me.

I asked a civil question. I expected a civil reply and found yours wanting in that department

mp


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Folkiedave
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 09:34 AM

I am of the opinion that we must trust Jeddy to be able to judge for herself what she does and who with.

I agree.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: mauvepink
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 09:39 AM

addenda

I suppose it's my fault I got sworn at because I happened to be here on the thread and answered back in a way you do not agree with. That gives you permission to foul mouth me

I take respnsibility so you can leseen your obvious lack of trying to be on a thread and not swear at someone. I get the picture ;-)

Guilty m'lud! I was here. I deserved it

mp


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Jeri
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 10:22 AM

Of COURSE it's the woman's responsibility!
She left the house.
She got dressed and went outside, and so tempted a rapist looking for a victim in much the same way as a man would tempt an armed robber.

I came close a couple times. The worst time, I was wondering how I'd get back home if I had to kill him. I don't know if I would have, but this guy's thing was NOT physical strength. He'd also landed his plane on a deserted part of a lake, and there's no way he had a chance in the water.

I thought about the possibilities before I got in the plane with him, "Let's go for a ride in the plane. I'm going anyway, and you might enjoy it. Not interested in anything else." Well, he tried, I said no, he tried again, I said no, and it went on until I got away from him, hit the water and headed for the plane. It wasn't really very serious--more like Pepe LePeu and the pussycat, but it makes me wonder if he'd done it before with success. He had that place mapped out.

So maybe I was wrong to want to go for a plane ride with a guy I knew, who was respected in the local community. Maybe it would have been MY fault for trusting a fellow human.

It's safer to stay home and lock all the doors.
It's safer not to dress in anything sexy or pretty.
It's safer not to drink any alcohol, or dance, or flirt.
It's safer to gain a hundred extra pounds.
It's safer not to trust anyone.
It's safer not to look strangers in the eye, or talk to them.

It's safer, but maybe being that afraid is just a little bit like what happens to someone who actually has been raped.

'No' means 'no'.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: jeddy
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 10:27 AM

we all take risks everday. life is risky, to not to do anything because of fear is irrational. we would never talk to anyone or go anywhere.

i understand those of you who judge, i do it too. we sit in front of the tv and say " haven't people learned yet" where money scams and getting into cars thinking they are taxis without checking are concerned. being judgmental is easy when you are not emotionally attatched to the person things have happened to.
this means that although i understand, i still do not agree with you that in part some people are responsible for things happening to them. yes we can all do things that keep us safe but returning to what i said at the start of this post, what sort of life would that be?
empathy is the key. i think at least. we don't always have to experiance something to feel for people.

anyway take care all
jade x x x x


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 10:56 AM

Yes, it is everyones responsibility to keep themselves safe. And once again I ask if rape is suitable punishment for beeing foolish.

I would also like to go back to an earlier point I could have made a bit clearer.

A woman murders her husband because if he did not she would have to suffer a life of endless abuse and she was fearful of her own life. Mitigating circumstances.

A man robs a shop because he has no money and his children are starving. Mitgating circumstances.

A man forces a woman to have sex against her will because..? Are there ever any mitigating circumstances? If the man did not have sex with her would he die? Would his children starve?

I would like to hear from anyone who believes that rape can ever be justified. And if there is not any justification - Why even enquire into what the woman was wearing, where she was and whether she was drunk?

Why, in other words, does it matter whether the victim was being irresponsible or not?

Cheers

DeG


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 11:02 AM

Oh - Unless it is just to make her feel even worse?


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: mauvepink
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 11:17 AM

"I would like to hear from anyone who believes that rape can ever be justified. And if there is not any justification - Why even enquire into what the woman was wearing, where she was and whether she was drunk? "

RAPE can NEVER be justified, EVER

There should be no enquiry into what the woman was wearing nor if she had had a drink

The main factor has to be about consent, implied or otherwise, and withdrawal or resitance to that consent BEFORE the act. If she/he has said no then at that point anything going further has to be attempted rape or rape itself. I think that is the easy part.

Where the difficulties arise is when whole smokecreens and mists are rected by defences to try and discredit an already traumatised victim. Acquaintance rapes will also always have grey areas when one persons word against another is all you have. Where there is proof of some kind then it becomes more clear and easier to prosecute.

That the victim can be raped again by the defence, under the pretext that they have to do the best for their client, where there is strong proof their client is guilty, is quite dispicable.

But, in answer to your question: NO... rape can never be justified.

mp


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 11:31 AM

MP....You have an apology for my use of the "F" word. Although not directly aimed at you, it was uncalled for and your posts seem to contain no bad language.

The word was more of a sign of my frustration, that you continue to claim that some here are trying to excuse rape.

Please show me where on this thread ANYONE has said that.
Personally, I have denied that several times.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 11:39 AM

Dave, you have to enquire a great deal in some forms of rape, to make sure that it was actually rape in the first place.

I am not talking about violent, pre-planned, pre-meditated, or opportunistic rape.   I am talking about whether a woman changes her mind after the event took place and then blames the man.

We have created a society that now says women bear no responsibility. Period. Under those circumstances, it is very easy for any woman to falsely accuse a man, because chances are she is the one who will be believed.

That is wrong. That is SO wrong that is almost unbelievable.

It is extraordinarily difficult to prove what took place between two people, when there were no witnesses.

My innocent friend was merely accused of molesting his young female pupil, who later withdrew that allegation, but it led to him hanging himself, because when mud is thrown, it so often sticks.   What happened to him should NEVER have happened, so if I come down a little on the man's side in the case of an innocent act occurring, you'll have to forgive me, because if more common sense had been used at the start of his troubles, if HIS side of the story had been believed, as instantly as hers was, he may not have ended up hanging from a tree!

I don't think that anyone has said that women ***DESERVE*** to be raped, in this thread.   I've stated over and over that it would be far better if women got back into their clothes, fashion-wise, and started behaving with a little more grace, respectability and common sense. But that in NO WAY excuses men who take advantage of that kind of situation.   

It just saddens me that if women went back to some self-discipline, less 'ladette' behaviour and used far more common sense and street awareness, then many such situations may not even happen in the first place, because the opportunistic rapist would never have the opportunity in the first place.

Far more self-restraint on EVERYONE'S part would be a good thing, rather than this modern day 'We can do WHATEVER we f*cking well want and don't you DARE preach to us otherwise!' society.

Yeah, OK, go out there drunk as skunks, fall over unconscious on the pavement, legs splayed open...but REALISE that you are putting yourself at terrible risk from some pretty nasty people out there...and whether you or I like it not, there ARE some horrendous people out there, always have been, always will be....

I was taught to be aware. I didn't really want to think the world wasn't always a nice place, but that's what many parents back then taught us. We were taught to be responsible..and it really was almost unheard of for women to go out in packs, drinking themselves senseless. There were no wine bars, no Happy Hours, no booze culture, no vast pressure to dress like sluts or behave that way....and you know many women, young women actually don't WANT to behave that way, but they are under HUGE pressure to do so.

Personally, I feel that womenn have never been so at risk as they are now...and it worries the shit out of me. It worries the shit out of me for THEIR sakes. And the longer this goes on, the worse it will become.

Tell me, what will today's youngsters tell their children? Will they warn them of the dangers of being drunk, night after night? Will they warn them of the danger of sleeping with strangers? I don't know, I really don't know.

Somewhere along the line, it has all gone so horribly wrong...and the Girl Power has actually led to a disempowering of women, in my eyes, because there is NO need for women to dress as some pervert's fantasy, is there? We educate them to do that from childhood, grooming them with their toys, books, films...Bratz dolls dressed like hookers (and no I do NOT believe that a hooker deserves to be raped, before you all have a go at me!) dolls that invite men, with pouting lips and chests stuck out like whores..I mean what the hell is that all about???????????

In my day, if a woman led a man on, and did so repeatedly, she was called 'a prick teaser' and frowned upon, by both men and women. Now that seems to have become the norm, with women thinking they really do have the right to do whatever they want to men, no matter how much they turn them on, wind them up.

They don't have that right, in my book.

If you are NOT prepared to go all the way, but you lead a man into thinking you are, and then chaos ensues, you've been bloody stupid.

As Bruce said way back though, stupidity is NOT a crime.

It is still the man's fault who crosses that line, but hell, come ON girls, stop behaving like that in the FIRST place, because it's bloody wrong, bloody unkind and...bloody stupid. Get some self-pride back, get some rules about how you want men to treat you with respect and then...treat THEM with that very same respect.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: mauvepink
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 11:48 AM

Apology accepted akenaton :-)

Where have I actually accused any one person, or claimed, that anyone suggested there is an excuse for rape? I have posited that there seems some thought that there are some circumstances that some people think that a person's actions deserve some guilt or responsibility for what ultimately happens them if they do get raped. I do NOT accept that as a premise. They can, as is their choice, but I do not and will not.

Indeed, it was me who first erected this thread because I found it repugnant that anyone should think a rape victim should carry some of the blame ever.

I have said though that there can never be an excsue for rape. I stand by that and if that idea is combined with what I say above I am aware it is pointing toward me suggesting that anyone disagreeing with it is almost excusing the crime.

In my humble opinion I do feel that if anyone suggest the victim must take some responisblity for what happens them then that is suggesting they are seen to be guilty of some blame for what happened. I totally disagree with that idea. Is that any clearer?

I am accusing no one person. I am against the route of suggesting blame.

Semantics aside, I hope this makes it more transparent

mp


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 11:48 AM

After having given it a great deal of thought...yes, I have agonized for DAYS over it!

I have decided that there are one or two cases where rape victims SHOULD take the blame.

Ahem!

1. When they have been raped by a toy poodle. These little dogs are lascivious and rapacious brutes, true, but they would get absolutely nowhere with their vile intentions if people didn't indulge them so! It's disgraceful how much leash some pet owners give them, and it must be stopped.

2. When they have been raped by a doorknob. Really, there's just no excuse for it. Anyone, after all, can just walk AWAY from a doorknob if they choose to!

And that's the extent of my comments on this no doubt worthy subject.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Jeri
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 11:52 AM

Rape is never justified, and a rapist is a criminal no matter what the circumstances.

There are all sorts of things we can do to prevent being victims. Where common sense crosses over into silliness, I don't know, but I think modifying one's clothing is more in the realm of 'silly'. I really do believe that, when it comes to a rapist, being the target gender may be all that's required, or being a certain race, being a redhead or blonde, being plump, being thin, being dressed a certain way, being scared... ultimately, just being there.

I won't live my life in fear of something that should never happen in the first place. I will try to avoid risky situations: where I am and who I'm with.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: mauvepink
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 11:55 AM

"If you are NOT prepared to go all the way, but you lead a man into thinking you are, and then chaos ensues, you've been bloody stupid."

Women, and men for that matter, must retain the right to be able to change their minds. They may fancy the pants off a guy, go to his place, then see the state of him when he undresses... anything! All sorts of reasons why women change their mind at the last minute.

A change of mind should not in any way mitigate him carrying on with his free will. Yes, it's unfair maybe on him, but with no malicious intent she is fully entitled to back out.

INHO

mp


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 01:44 PM

Well, if you fancy the pants of him, then you don't fancy him when you've got the pants OFF him, doesn't that show that you're more than a little shallow in the first place? I mean, shouldn't you get to know someone a litte more FIRST before you take their pants off?

This is where 'sex for sex sake' goes so wrong.

Yeah, I know, I'm horrendously old-fashioned.
Thank goodness.

And thank you to Little Hawk for bringing in some humour to this thread..'cos he sure did make me smile.


I'm outta here now, as this is just going round and round in circles.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: mauvepink
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 01:56 PM

"Well, if you fancy the pants of him, then you don't fancy him when you've got the pants OFF him, doesn't that show that you're more than a little shallow in the first place? I mean, shouldn't you get to know someone a litte more FIRST before you take their pants off?"

You are making the words fit your meaning Lizzie. Even long term stable relationships can go wrong in the bedroom (and other places). For the purpose of this conversation we are talking forced sex = rape and the fact that women have and should retaiun a choice to say no and withdraw consent at any stage with whoever they wish. The state of that relationship, ie one night stand or the first time they go for sex on the heneymoon, could still mean the woman says no. She has that right. To go past it is rape.

All this stable relationship long term loving stuff you favour is no better when it comes to rape. Women are no longer the property of their husbands and do not tell me that women in long term, so-called stable, relationships never used to get raped at will. Some still do regularly. Please stop taking the moral high ground because it is not what you would do. Be glad you have such a caring and loving relationship but never be so moral as to think rape could not happen to you.

It happens because rapists make it happen NOT because the victims ask for it in some way. And I repeat: Women (and men) must retain the right to be able to change their minds

mp


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 01:59 PM

It is indeed going round in circles but we have seen many 'I'm outta here now' messages. I think you are just getting us all excited with these teasing little messages and then letting us down when you change your mind. The way some people behave gets them in all sorts of trouble.

...If you are NOT prepared to go all the way, but you lead a man into thinking you are, and then chaos ensues, you've been bloody stupid...

:-)

DeG


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: jeddy
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 02:00 PM

AGGGGRRRRR ... sometimes i dispair!!! how many posts? and some people are still being stubborn!

i think i give up, at least for now!

take care and good luck for those with more staying power than me.
love
jade x x x x


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lox
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 02:05 PM

MtheGM wrote:

"There may well be occasions when the woman did not actually resist the man's arousal techniques, did not verbally express reluctance, permitted penetration tho without active encouragement. Then, next day, regretted that the intercourse had occurred, remembered that she had, tho being somewhat passive, not actually given positive consent. And then been led by these regrets to make an accusation of rape on the grounds that she had not positively consented"

Ok - lets avoid a "kneejerk" reaction.

And examine this post one point at a time.

"There may well be occasions when the woman did not actually resist the man's arousal techniques,"

Arousal techniques? So he is arousing her.

In what way?

Kissing? Talking dirty? Manipulating her erogenous zones in some way?

Sounds like foreplay.

Not very rape like yet ...

but lets carry on.

"permitted penetration"

A-ha ... permission.

Another word for Permission would be "consent"

Still not very rape-like.

Then, next day, regretted that the intercourse had occurred.

Ok - regret.


well upon analyisis of your scenario, we see foreplay and permission featuring centrally.

So it wasn't rape but consensual sex.

Which the woman later regretted.


The fact that she later decided to sticth the guy up has nothing to do with this thread.

In other words, exactly what royston said.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 02:25 PM

Lizzie, what is your problem with women who set out to attract sexual partners? What is your problem with women who are honest enough to accept (if they do) that they want sex? You persist in trying to attribute blame to them, whatever your choice of words.

If you have a problem with my words above, let me point out that an express refusal of consent negates any inference that might arise from prior words or conduct. The point at which a person becomes incapable of making a choice is the point at which they cease to be able effectively to consent.

If people drink enough to feel randy (it can have the opposite effect) it does not ipso facto affect their legal capability to consent to to deny consent. At the time.

Alcohol is a depressant. It depresses more superficial things first - like social inhibitions (which is one of many reasons people do drink alcohol). Your problem with this is?


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Bill D
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 02:35 PM

Good grief...people are STILL posting as if the question of whether 'rape is ever justified' has not been answered.

Of course rape in never justified! All that is a real issue is 'what defines rape', and THAT is a muddled issue.

Some think it's simply a black/white definition of "any time the woman says NO'. But THAT becomes a matter of controversy. If it was a question of "would you like another chocolate-chip cookie?", it is easy to note various levels of 'NO', but I can easily write scenarios where NO is not clear & unambiguous.....and you can too!
IF you seriously want to define rape, you will have to figure out some way to differentiate quiet, mumbled 'no' from loud, serious NO!....and you must decide whether NO is required, or whether, "...oh, Johnny...I don't we should..." is enough, and decide whether, if she has allowed Johnny many times before, that 'NO' has the same status, and whether she got into bed with Johnny intending to have sex, but decided she was 'too tired' right now, or he had not showered in days and puts her off, or he insulted her sister at the crucial moment.....and 10 million other possible scenarios.

Now...note: I am not condoning anything:::

Yes...it is my opinion, that she...or HE..or any person, should be able to 'opt out' of ANY sexual encounter at ANY time!!

ANYONE should have, and in principle does have, the right to say the equivalent of 'NO' at any point. The real issue is, what level of ignoring various forms of 'NO' are serious enough to call it rape? THIS is why court cases become a matter of "he said/she said" and judges & juries hate to send some testosterone laden kid to jail for seemingly misreading the seriousness of her 'NO'...or whatever she actually said.

It is not a matter of stridently insisting that the principle is simple, the definition is clear, and the rules are universal....
What is needed is a way for society to define those rules as clearly as possible, and as I said 2 or 3 times above, educate kids of BOTH sexes about what the rules mean-- starting as soon as they are able to comprehend the issue.

Sexuality IS an enormously powerful force which does not lend itself easily to simplistic modern rules and legalistic overlays, but modern society does require that we do something to facilitate controls on 'natural urges' in order to protect (mostly) women from trauma, guilt, embarrassment, pain, and lingering problems about their own image....and more.

The issue is real, but we need to be very careful about deciding exactly what the issue actually is.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lox
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 03:17 PM

"Good grief...people are STILL posting as if the question of whether 'rape is ever justified' has not been answered."

I don't read that.

I read that the question of whether a victim is ever to blame is still up for discussion.

"All that is a real issue is 'what defines rape', and THAT is a muddled issue."


No it isn't.

the defining factor is consent.

In the real world, with real human beings in real circumstances, it is is very clear whether consent has been given or not.

Just try "getting it wrong" with your wife and see how well you are able to convince either yourself or her, and how far down the line you were able to get before you crossed the line.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Bill D
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 04:00 PM

"In the real world, with real human beings in real circumstances, it is is very clear whether consent has been given or not."

ummmmm...NO!, sadly, it is just flatly, NOT always clear.

Lox..you are unfortunately missing my point. It is the same basic process in clarifying what constitutes 'consent' as in clarifying how to recognize the various formats of 'no'.
Consent or the denial of consent are simply not always clear & unambiguous...even to the one saying it!

Changing the word you use to label the problem does not change the problem.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 04:51 PM

"Lizzie, what is your problem with women who set out to attract sexual partners?"

Nothing whatsoever, if that's what turns them on. I'm not a 'hunter' type. It doesn't turn me on, but heyho, that's just lil' ol' me who refuses to give in to this instant gratification syndrome, or be brainwashed into thinking that women now should ALL think like the worst types of misogynists, in that men are there purely and only for our sexual fulfillment and whatever else we do to them doesn't matter one iota.

I am not into rapists.
I am not into selfish, in yer face, women.
I am also not into the modern way of sexual life.

I grieve for Love, terribly.
I grieve for Personal Responsibility as well.

I think that encouraging women to behave more and more in a masculine way is wrong, actually, Richard.

Why?

Because Once Upon A Time, not only in The Land of Lizzie, women were far more feminine and they recognised that choosing a mate was perhaps far more what they wanted than sleeping around with every Tom, Dick and Harry's dick. Nature kinda gave us a protective instinct, it went along with motherhood, children, all that 'stuff' we got rid of in the Evolution of Women into Psuedo Men campaign.

I find the attitude of some women these days totally beyond my comprehension and just because I ain't frightened to come out and say that from the Moral High Ground doesn't make me a bad person, you know. Many people feel too bamboozled or threatened by the Feminists to dare to speak out, fearful of being labelled 'this' or 'that. Well, I've had so many bloody labels stuck on my forehead that another few don't matter....'cos none of them label me right anyway..

Yes, sometimes there is absolute sexual electricity between a man and a woman, and it's fantastic for both concerend, but I ain't the kind of woman who could live with myself if I was out there behaving like a rabbit every night of the week.

Geez! And THAT is freedom, for women???????

I'd far rather be a Happy Bunny, curled up around ONE man that I love with all my heart, having ONE relationship that is filled with love, sex and spirituality, rather than 'sex on demand' with no strings attached. For me, that is empty, hollow and sad. You want me, then you have the strings that go with me, or walk away.

Constant sex, without love, sounds to me more like a misogynist's dream. He gets the sex without any of the emotional stuff, no ties, no loyalty, no love, no nothing, other than orgasms on demand.

Nah, women have been duped, BIGTIME, trouble is, these days they're way too busy f*cking to f*cking well have worked it out yet.

But they will...

Things go full circle, they always do.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 05:15 PM

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lizzie Cornish 1 - PM
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 01:44 PM

...

I'm outta here now, as this is just going round and round in circles.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lizzie Cornish 1 - PM
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 04:51 PM

"Lizzie, what is your problem with women who set out to attract sexual partners?"...


Lizzie, you little teaser, you. There I was, thinking you really meant what you said at 01:44 and yet at 04:51 you come straight back. Well, sorry, but if you put yourself in this position then you must bear some of the blame.

FUCK OFF.

Sorry to all others who were affected by the bad language but surely you can see that by teasing me, taunting me and not really meaning what she said he must bear part of he blame:-)

DeG


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: mauvepink
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 05:23 PM

"Because Once Upon A Time, not only in The Land of Lizzie, women were far more feminine and they recognised that choosing a mate was perhaps far more what they wanted than sleeping around with every Tom, Dick and Harry's dick. Nature kinda gave us a protective instinct, it went along with motherhood, children, all that 'stuff' we got rid of in the Evolution of Women into Psuedo Men campaign."

Lizzie I have nothing against the old fashioned courtship, falling in love, marraige, children, grandchildren route. It's wonderful when it happens, as long as that is what both sides want, and it can be beautifully romantic. Nothing wrong with being 'old fashioned' either if that is what folks want.

But I doubt the above will go full circle. Some of the picture you paint will never return because women stopped buying into the idea of needing a man for financial support. They can still be extremely feminine - though I take your point about women acting like men and I have no like for that way either personally - and now lots of women want a career and not children. The ethic of "you have my babies and I'll make you my property, take your financial independence away and make you dependant on me so I can have sex when I want with you' has mostly passed by in the modern world. That is not making women men, It just means they have taken charge of their own lives and now enjoy the same independance that men enjoy if they so wish.

Those of us who believe in the old fashioned way still have no right to motalise on women's new found freedoms. We could have them oourselves if we so choose and they could have the old fashioned way if they wished it.

I think all we are seeing is a balance on both side of the gender divide. It does not mean women need to act like men. But it also does not mean that if a woman chooses to have her independance and have a free choice of sexual partner, just like men can have, that she should be judged for doing so.

I still think that a great many women who 'sleep around' are still actually seeking love in their own way. There are a lot of lonely people out there and long term relationships need a lot of work. I decry that more people do not stay together but I would not want to see a return of women being tied to their husband's demands and power under the law.

(This is not to say anything against men. I believe men have xhanged too of late, mostly, and maybe they do not want a return to the old ways. I cannot speak for them in any way).

This is just my opinion Lizzie, as you have yours, and whilst I find your life sounding so romantic I ask that it does not close your eyes to how women have got to where they are.

mp


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 05:32 PM

I think what Lizzie is saying, is that by "getting where they are", women have perhaps lost more than they have gained?

If so, I tend to agree with her.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: mauvepink
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 05:46 PM

"I think what Lizzie is saying, is that by "getting where they are", women have perhaps lost more than they have gained?"

In recent discussions with friends some have suggested the very same thing. Especially when it comes to women's equality. It is an on-going process that will evolve I am sure and swing back toward the middle. To date all of them were men though. That is not to say no women would agree.

They need to keep what they have gained and build on getting back some of what they have lost maybe. I do not think it will go back to where women are being subservient to the men. Having independance does not make it compulsory to be foolish, I will go that far, but I still maintain that follishness should not be punished. We all know it often is but that will never make it right.

Bringing this thread full circle back to it roots though...

Even if all the women who now go out and get drunk and throw caution to the wind, as has been suggested, tidied up their act and stayed at home, there would be very little difference in the rape figures. Maybe the figures would go up.

Drunk, foolish, being silly... makes mo odds at all in the main as has been shown. Using it as a defence for the rapist should not be allowed

mp


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Emma B
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 05:52 PM

Lost and gained?

The following was written by one woman in 1852 - there's a lollipop for anyone who recognizes the author :)

"Women are never supposed to have any occupation of sufficient importance not to be interrupted, except "suckling their fools"; and women themselves have accepted this, have written books to support it, and have trained themselves so as to consider whatever they do as not of such value to the world as others, but that they can throw it up at the first "claim of social life".

They have accustomed themselves to consider intellectual occupation as a merely selfish amusement, which it is their "duty" to give up for every trifler more selfish than themselves.

Women never have an half-hour in all their lives (except before and after anybody is up in the house) that they can call their own, without fear of offending or of hurting someone. Why do people sit up late, or, more rarely, get up so early? Not because the day is not long enough, but because they have "no time in the day to themselves".

The family? It is too narrow a field for the development of an immortal spirit, be that spirit male or female.

The family uses people, not for what they are, not for what they are intended to be, but for what it wants for - its own uses.

It thinks of them not as what God has made them, but as the something which it has arranged that they shall be.

This system dooms some minds to incurable infancy, others to silent misery"


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: mauvepink
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 06:02 PM

Florence Nightingale...

where is my lollipop Emma? ;-)

mp


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: mauvepink
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 06:05 PM

I did cheat though Emma :-(

But what did crop up and is worth reading just the first paragraph is

British women's low status in the 19th century

Sounds a great place to go back to for women

NOT!

mp


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Emma B
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 06:10 PM

cheating? - for shame

For enterprise however - what flavour? :)


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: mauvepink
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 06:32 PM

Black cherry please :-)

... though I hardly deserve it

At least some lightness has been blown into the thread

mp


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Ebbie
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 06:34 PM

This thread seems to have veered wildly from the original premise. I think the original question has been answered repeatedly - NO!- and gone on into fantasy land.

Love is(n't easy to find- and the enduring kind necessarily takes time. Some people never find it, and some people don't even want that kind of relationship). In any case, being foolish in its pursuit is not a capital offense and not for others to judge.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lox
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 06:35 PM

OK Bill,

Provide us with an example of a grey area.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 06:57 PM

"Some of the picture you paint will never return because women stopped buying into the idea of needing a man for financial support."


Er....but didn't an awful lot of people get married for love? And to raise a family along the way? It wasn't simply for financial support.

Don't be fooled by the Feminist Fact Finders, mp.

Not all husbands used to rape their wives..
Not all husbands looked upon their wives as their property either.

I'd think those who did were in the minority, actually.

Not only that, but many husbands used to actually love their wives, and they still do to this day, be they old or new husbands.

There is nothing wrong with romance, being romantic, or being in love or loved. Sadly way too many people suffer from the lack of it, because so many have believed the lie that sex is the new way forward, with no responsibility and no committment.

And so sex becomes almost on a par with going to the bathroom, just a mere physical act, which our bodies require to go through, every now and then.


Sorry, but give me love any day of the week!


Give me the kind of love where a man knows he never has to even ask, (let alone sign a contract) because he knows he'll never be refused, such is the love, trust, openess and affection between two people.

How can there be a Unity of the Soul when the Soul is broken and alone after another night's f*cking?

I'm sorry to keep using that word, but that's what we've brought it down to, ain't it?

Once it used to be.....

"My soul is only truly at peace when I am with you...."

Now it's become...

"Shit! I wanna fuck the living daylights out of you! By the way, what did you say your name was? Not that it matters..."

Anyway, we're digressing from the thread..and David will blow a gasket if he sees me in here again, and there really is nothing more that I want to say in here.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 07:24 PM

Give yourself a break, Lizzie. It's no use getting all worked up over these endless Internet wrangles. What I'm waiting for is a couple of anonymous confessional posts from those wretched toy poodles, rotten little things that they are...


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: mauvepink
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 07:26 PM

"Don't be fooled by the Feminist Fact Finders, mp.

Not all husbands used to rape their wives..
Not all husbands looked upon their wives as their property either.

I'd think those who did were in the minority, actually.

Not only that, but many husbands used to actually love their wives, and they still do to this day, be they old or new husbands."

I do not expect an answer Lizzie so please do not feel the need to stick around on my part. I certainly would not wish to encourahe you to say you are leaving again :-)

What you say above is quite true. Not all Husbands, no more than other men, are all rapists. I do know that. And, yes, I know that love should go hand in hand. But for those that do not choose that path nor been are luckey enough to have found it I see no sense in judging them

For me personally I would take love any day but then now I have no wish to have my heart broken again either. I think many women have givem up on love because they have been betrayed once too often. There are all sorts of factors as to why women do not have comitted relationships. There but for the grace of God go I...

I'll shush now

nite nite all :-)

mp


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Bill D
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 07:47 PM

good grief! Anyone can do that, and I thought my post of 2:35PM suggested a couple. But 'gray' means situations that are hard to pigeonhole...it doesn't mean 'exceptions to clear rules in unambiguous situations'.

It must happen thousands of times every day that a woman..or girl.. is not sure herself what she wants to do...and when... and with whom.
If she allows all sorts of preliminaries, then decides "this sort of doesn't feel exactly right at the moment", and makes little mumbled protests that sound very much like the noises she makes when she is totally willing, and then decides that arguing is not worth it...and...well, there are thousands of variations on that theme. IF she says, out loud and very clearly, "Johnny... no...not now!", then he should stop...now... no matter what they have done in the past. It makes no difference whether he understands, agrees, or pretends not to hear..he is in the wrong! Now whether this constitues 'rape' is even harder to decide, because it may be that she would be quite willing later, or in a different place...etc...

'Gray' means that, because the participants were confused, anyone else trying to decide how to judge it if she complains (even just to a girlfriend) cannot easily label the situation. Is he guilty of a serious crime? Or just a lout who should be dumped?

(I hate to invent little scenes, because those who DO want everything to be black or white will pick at it and proclaim that it WAS clear if she even mumbled 'no' briefly...)

Sorry, Lox... but humans and their actions just do not fall into neat little categories. Every situation you describe has counterparts that are just a bit different....which is why I say again, kids (BOTH sexes)need the clearest rules possible drilled into their hormone-driven little brains as early & often as possible!


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: jeddy
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 07:57 PM

"Give me the kind of love where a man knows he never has to even ask, (let alone sign a contract) because he knows he'll never be refused, such is the love, trust, openess and affection between two people."

wow, you have never refused someone?

ahh in this dream land men don't want sex when................... they understand the monthly bloating, or they know when we have headaches or just feel frumpy, are in a bad mood or they smell or even just don't want to.

no wonder you don't understand about when and why women say NO.
it now makes you easier to understand how you come to the conclusions you have done. it also means that any trying to get you to understand is pointless.

back to the thread. i would have thought that having sex with someone who for whatever reason is unable to say no loud enough to be heard is unsavoury as it is. not exactly rape, but not that far off it. to me a woman who is nearly unconsious is a complete turn off.to most men i would have thought it would be too. maybe thats just me, some feedback from the men on here would be good thanks.

see you all later or tomorrow no doubt.
sleep well, i have a feeling we will need our strength
jade x x x


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lox
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 08:36 PM

Bill,

To say that ALL situations have shades of Grey is a black and white assertion.

Many if not most situations are mainly grey.

But even the most religious fuzzy logician would allow for the possibility that sometimes things are black and white.

Consent is one of those rare instances.

I have read your post of 2.35pm and have noted that you focussed solely on verbal indicators.

As you may remember, sexual consent includes many other factors than just the word yes or the word no.

An honest man knows when a woman wants to have sex and when she doesn't.

Thankfully it is not accepted in law to argue that sometimes a woman says no but means yes.

If I want to go for a ride with you on my tandem, whether you say yes or no, once everything is said, we still have to get onto it and ride.

In the process it becomes pretty clear whether you are up for riding a tandem or not.

I could Put the helmet on you, and the knee pads, and then balance you on the seat and pretend that we're both having a whale of a time, but in all honesty it would be pretty clear that you were just putting up with it. Your disconfort and disinterest would be as obvious as the nose on your face.

Now - if you gave your consent for that to happen, that would be weird, but it would be consent nonetheless.

But an honest guy would ask "are you sure"?

And then maybe decide not to go ahead with it.

If a girl doesn't want sex, there are plenty of other indicators that would be staring the man in the face.

If she wasn't sure what to do but decided to go along with it, she has given consent - why I wil never know - but it is still consent.

If she quietly mumbles "no" in addition to all the other indicators, then regardless of whether she gives consent or not, the guy is a wilfully blind selfish cock for carrying on and ignoring what is blatantly obvious.

If she says no without conviction in those circumstances, due to fear or uncertainty, those emotions will be affecting her body in many ways. She will not be enthusiastic, she will be difficult to manipulate into position, and she will be difficult and painful to penetrate.

Not hearing that little "no" would be an act of will.

if she didn't know what to do and gave consent for fear that if she didn't she would upsetting him, or doing something wrong, then legally that might not be rape, but morally I would still call that guy a rapist as he would have to be forceful and entirely selfish to get his way and he would have to deliberately close his mind to her obvious discomfort.

And where does this confusion come from in the first place?

Could it be that society has taught her that if you invite a man back to your place then you are obliged by social contract to let him shag you?

Could it be the pressure that society puts on women by saying "you shouldn't have invited him back then or worn those clothes should you"

In other words the attitudes that the women in the OP's article.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Bill D
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 08:58 PM

"To say that ALL situations have shades of Grey is a black and white assertion."

And I said no such thing....

"An honest man knows when a woman wants to have sex and when she doesn't."

and that is just a slogan or a platitude. Many years ago, I knew a couple of women who dithered and fretted and didn't know themselves! I, personally, took it on myself to decide that if they were not sure, *I* would decide not to go any further. I would recommend that attitude, but I, personally, knew several guys who snickered and repeated the stupid old line about "she may say no, but they all want it, and just need a little push". I actually threw one idiot out of my house for acting like he 'owned' a woman who was visiting at my place. He propositioned almost every woman he knew...until he won, and then lost interest. I have no idea how some men's minds get like that, but I DO know that he was VERY convincing, even when a woman had doubts, and he was a master at getting around a 'no', and even convincing HER that she 'didn't really mean no'. I think is was just a complex game to him, and I wanted no more to do with him. (He told someone later he couldn't understand why I wouldn't 'make up' with him and forgive his conduct.)
   So, did she technically 'give consent'? Yeah...I guess so, but if there were ever examples of gray areas, this guy could create them.

Once again, Lox... reality can be very different than your simplified little template to rate all situations.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lox
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 10:01 PM

"simplified little template"

gee thanks.

"if there were ever examples of gray areas, this guy could create them."

It certainly sounds like he exploited uncertainty to his advantage.

But basically, though the conclusion of your thoughts differs to mine, the content of your reasoning seems to be in agreement with what I wrote in my last post insofar as you seemed to view your friend as being in the wrong despite not breaking the law.

You certainly seem to be in agreement that someone has to be pretty cold and determined if they are to have sex with a woman who isn't sur