Origin: Flandyke Shore (Nic Jones)

Subject: Flandyke Shore
From: Graham
Date: 31 Aug 99 - 11:44 AM

Can anyone offer any information on the origins of Nic Jones' Flandyke Shore. It's a strange incomplete version - any ideas??

Subject: RE: Help: Flandyke Shore
From: GeorgeH
Date: 31 Aug 99 - 12:23 PM

Not much help, but I think I have a tape of a broadcast of him singing it where he says, more or less, that it's a strange, incomplete song . . .

G.

Subject: RE: Help: Flandyke Shore
From: bigJ
Date: 31 Aug 99 - 03:30 PM

According to H.E.D. Hammond's notes in the Journal of the Folk Song Society (No 11- 1907 pp130-131), it was collected from Mrs Notley of Moreton in December 1906. He writes - 'Mrs Notley had the song from a very old woman of Moreton, a famous local singer. The story of the song, she said, was that of a young man called to the wars in Flanders, went to pay a farewell visit to his love, whose father locked her in her chamber, thus frustrating the endevour. The title Flandyke Shore which Mrs Notley gave, is doubtless a corruption of 'Flanders Shore.' To Hammond's note, Cecil Sharp has added:- 'I have a close variant of this ballad. The tune, which I noted down from an old lady in Somerton, is substantially the same as Mrs. Notley's, except that it is in 3/2 time throughout, and is in the Mixolydian mode. My version consists of four verses, the last two of which are more or less the same as the Dorset verses. The first two are as follows :- When I was young and a courting did go
I loved a fair maid as my life,
From four in the morning till nine at night
I never would gain my heart's delight.

When her father came to hear
That I did court his daughter dear
He locked her up in a room so high
That was the beginning of all my misery.

As you say, the song as Nic sang it, is incomplete, so when the song appeared on the Albion Band's 'Acousticity' CD, it had a note by Ashley Hutchings: 'The much-loved Nic Jones found the traditional "Flandyke Shore" some years ago, about the same time as I discovered the song. He recorded it, I didn't. Recently, while driving through the Canadian Rockies in our touring van Chris (While) spontaneously started to sing the song which renewed our interest in, and love of the piece. She and I decided to give "Flandyke" a happy ending and by the time we had reached the United States border the task was completed.' This is it:

So I hove a dart that touch-ed my true love's heart
Touch-ed my true love's heart
And brought the light into her eyes again.

Subject: Lyr Add: THE FLANDYKE SHORE
From: GUEST,Meister Blowmore
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 02:44 PM

I found them....

enjoy
-blowmore

THE FLANDYKE SHORE

I went unto my love's chamber window
Where I often I had been before
Just to let her know unto Flandyke Shore
Unto Flandyke Shore
Never to return to England no more
Never to return to England no more

I went unto my love's chamber door
Where I'd never had been before
There I saw a light springing from her clothes
Springing from her clothes
Just as the morning sun when first arose
Just as the morning sun when first arose

As I was walking on the Flandyke Shore
Her own dear father I did meet
"My daughter, she is dead", he cried
"She is dead", he cried
"And she's broken her heart all for the love of thee"
So I hoved a bullet onto fair England's shore
Onto fair England's shore
Just where I thought that my own true love did lay

---
Traditional
from Nic Jones on "Penguin Eggs"

HTML line breaks added. --JoeClone, 19-Jul-02.

Subject: RE: Help: Flandyke Shore
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 03:16 PM

That's a kind thought, Blowmore, but Jones' text was posted here just over a year ago, in another thread (later than this one):  Flandyke Shore - meaning?.  There doesn't seem to be much to add to BigJ's comments, really.

Malcolm

Subject: Lyr Add: PLOUGHMAN'S LOVE TO THE FARMER'S DAUGHTER
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 24 Aug 03 - 09:04 PM

Time to re-visit this old thread with further information.

Emily Lyle (Andrew Crawfurd's Collection of Ballads and Songs, Scottish Text Society 1996) prints a Scottish version, The Flanders Shore, noted by Crawfurd from Mrs Cunningham of Newton Ayr in January 1827 (text only). Lyle comments (vol.2 xxiii-xxiv):

"The Flanders Shore... is a modernisation of an earlier song. The related story which appears on a blackletter broadside in the Pepys Collection with the title The Unnatural Mother: or, The two Loyal Lovers Fatal Overthrow apparently dates from the time of the war with Flanders in 1693. This broadside had been published in facsimile in Catalogue of the Pepys Library at Magdalene College, Cambridge: The Pepys Ballads ed. W. G. Day (Cambridge 1987) 4.72. A later chapbook form called The Ploughman's Love to the Farmer's Daughter, to which the oral version is closer, is printed here in the Appendix (No. 1)."

Here is the chapbook text quoted.


THE PLOUGHMAN'S LOVE TO THE FARMER'S DAUGHTER

(Chapbook text. Printed J. & M. Robertson, Saltmarket, Glasgow, 1802.)

When first a-courting I did go,
I lov'd a fair maid as my life,
I often told her I did her love, I did her love,
but I never could gain her for my wife.

I serv'd her father winters seven,
from rising sun till nine at night,
Duly and truly as my life, as my life,
but I ne'er could gain my heart's delight.

I told her father secretly,
his daughter I did highly prize,
He lock'd her up in a room so high, in a room so high,
then first began my miseries.

I went to my love's chamber door,
where oft-times I had been before,
For to let her know and understand, and understand,
I was going to some foreign shore.

On shipboard I then went straightway,
and sailed for fair Flander's shore;
I little thought what should me befal, what should me befal,
that I ne'er should see my love more.

When to fair Flanders I did come,
No rest nor comfort could I find,
Tho' I did stand with glass in hand, glass in hand,
still my true love ran in my mind.

I took a pistol in my hand,
and charged it couragiously,
I shot a bullet into fair England, into fair England,
where I thought my true love might be.

When to fair England I return'd,
I met her father in the street,
My daughter is dead, said he, dead, said he,
all for the sake of loving thee.

I went to my love's chamber door,
where oft-times I had been before,
There sprung a light from my love's clothes,
just like the morning sun when rose.

All young men who a courting go,
who never made the bells to ring,
Go no more into shady groves, into shady groves,
for to hear the sweet nightingale sing.


The Robinson Library, University of Newcastle. Chapbooks, vol. 12, no. 30: The Kentish Tragedy; or the Constant Lovers Overthrow. To which are added, The Hogg's Tub. The Ploughman's Love to the Farmer's Daughter. The Shepherdess Lamenting her Drowned Lover. Glasgow. Printed by J. & M. Robertson, Saltmarket 1802. Pp. 6-7.


I'd say this answers the questions we've sometimes had here as to the meaning of the fragment found by Hammond and recorded by Nic Jones (with a little thought it can be sung to the same tune, too). It also makes the Hutchings-While "happy ending" look even more fatuous than it did already. When I get a look at the Pepys facsimile I'll add any further details that seem useful, but that may not be soon.

Subject: RE: Help: Flandyke Shore
From: nutty
Date: 25 Aug 03 - 09:58 AM

This sight might help to explain the song

Trad Arranged Jones

Subject: RE: Help: Flandyke Shore
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Aug 03 - 05:44 PM

I must agree with the notes from the site nutty kindly pointed us to. The Nic Jones version has a mysterious quality which the full version (excellent as it is), lacks. A wonderful example of the folk process I think.

Subject: RE: Help: Flandyke Shore
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 25 Aug 03 - 08:12 PM

Mrs Notley's fragment has a dreamlike quality, in that it has retained the imagery and lost the plot. The "mystery" derives from that, not from any quality inherent in the song. I have no opinion as to whether that is a good or a bad thing; that is a subjective judgement that people will make for themselves. Now, at least, they can make an informed judgement rather than one based on pure speculation.

Harding's sleeve notes don't really add much to "Big J"'s earlier comments, I think; and some of what he says is wrong. He states "The melody was collected by the great folk scholar Cecil Sharp from Mrs.Notley at Moreton in 1906". It wasn't. The collectors were the Hammond brothers. Sharp did comment in the Journal of the Folk Song Society that he had noted a similar variant, but that was from somebody else (Mrs Betsy Pike of Somerton, as it happens) and was not published.

Subject: RE: Help: Flandyke Shore
From: Noreen
Date: 26 Aug 03 - 07:55 PM

Fascinating- will have to work on this one.

Subject: RE: Help: Flandyke Shore
From: Trevor
Date: 27 Aug 03 - 05:22 AM

I've been (trying!) to sing this for some years. I love it, and the 'dreamlike' quality but it has never 'felt' complete, or quite long enough (probably because I can't do much in the way of twiddly guitar bits in the middle). I'm certainly going to have a look and see if I can incorporate any of the verses posted by Malcolm, without losing any of the feeling.

Thanks.

Subject: Lyr Add: UNNATURAL MOTHER / TWO LOYAL LOVERS' ...
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 13 Feb 04 - 01:03 PM

A recent post to another thread on this song reminded me that I now have the broadside text from which the chapbook text I quoted earlier presumably derived. It is transcribed from the facsimile image in W. G. Day (ed), Catalogue of the Pepys Library at Magdalene College, Cambridge: The Pepys Ballads, Cambridge 1987, Vol 4, 72. The sheet is undated, but the combination of publishers' names would indicate that it was printed somewhere between 1683 and 1696.


The Unnatural Mother: or, The Two Loyal Lovers' Fatal Overthrow.

The Mother she would not agree,
he could her Daughter have;
So they did part, she broke her heart,
her Portion was the Grave.

Licensed according to Order.

To an Excellent New Tune.


When first of all I began for to Wooe,
I loved a Bonny Lass as my Life,
And every day I did kindness show,
yet ne'er could obtain her to be my Wife.

I served her Father for seven long years,
I served her Father right faithfully,
From morning till noon and from noon till night
and all to enjoy her good company.

My service and labour I counted as play,
for had it been twenty long years and more,
I'd think it as short as a Winter's day,
enjoying my love whom I did adore

To her I did often reveal my Love,
she gave me her hand, with her heart and all,
And proved as true as the tender Dove,
I cannot complain of my Love at all.

As soon as her Parents did understand
that I to their Daughter did bear good will,
They studied to ruine us out of hand,
and this is the cause of my sorrow still.

I talk'd with her Mother right secretly,
but I had no sooner declar'd my mind,
But she lock'd her up in a Chamber high,
and made her a Prisoner close confin'd.

Then under her Window with Musick sweet,
and many sweet Sonnets I'd serenade;
There I with my amorous Love did meet,
until at the length we were both b[e]tray'd.

For when her own Mother at length did hear,
that under her Window I often came,
She Tyrant-like was the more severe,
no Mother was ever so much to blame.

Her innocent Daughter she took straightway,
and bound her with Chains in a Dungeon deep;
Not suffereing her to behold the day,
but there she in sorrow did sigh and weep.

Her Mother afforded her no relief,
but let her in showers of Tears lament,
My heart it was ready to break with Grief,
to think of the Torments she underwent.

I being surrounded with Grief and Woe,
to think of my true Love's misery;
A Soldier to Flanders I streight did go,
I valu'd not what would become of me.

And while in brave Flanders I did remain,
and youthful young Lasses appeared in view;
The thoughts of my Love did increase my pain,
and likewise my sorrow and grief renew.

Then I took my Musket all in my hand,
and cock'd and prim'd it immediately,
And shot a Bullet towards fair England,
the place where my Heart and my Love did lye.

Soon after I crossed the Ocean main,
unto the fair Banks of the English Shore,
In order to see my true Love again,
for whom I had many Months grieved sore.

My Heart was Streightways as heavy as Lead,
as soon as her cFather and Mother I see,
Who told me their Daughter dear, she was dead,
who broke her Heart for the Love of me.

Oh then I was almost in despair,
there Tydings did streightways my Soul surprize
I beat my Breast and tore my Hair,
while Tears they did trickle down from my Eyes.

My sorrowful ruine do's now appear,
unnatural Parents, I well may say
For why, you have Murder'd your Darling [...]
which might have liv'd many a happy day.

My Pillow with sorrowful Tears I soak,
without her I can never happy be;
Farewel to the World, now my Heart is broke,
my Dear, I'll lye down in the Grave with thee.


Printed for P. Brooksby, J. Deacon, J. Blare, and J. Back.

Subject: RE: Help: Flandyke Shore
From: GUEST,Neil O Connell
Date: 08 Jun 07 - 12:49 PM

Is Nic's tab available anywhere for ths?

Subject: RE: Help: Flandyke Shore
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 08 Jun 07 - 07:17 PM

That I can't answer; but since the thread has been revived I may as well add that the broadside I quoted earlier can now be seen online at  http://emc.english.ucsb.edu/ballad_project/:

4.72 The Unnatural Mother:/ OR,/ The two Loyal Lovers Fatal Overthrow

Subject: RE: Origin: Flandyke Shore (Nic Jones)
From: Mr Happy
Date: 07 Feb 08 - 06:19 AM

Here's a version done at Otley FF last year:http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=AiujitjEd4U

Don't think the group do it much justice [imo]

Subject: RE: Origin: Flandyke Shore (Nic Jones)
From: Artful Codger
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 06:19 AM

Can anyone provide Hammond's transcription of the text and tune. I don't like to step on copyrights, and who knows what liberties Nic (and hence everyone after him) has taken. In particular, I suspect the repetition of the final line of each verse, to a different strain, was Nic's invention--it's missing in the Albion Band sound clips I found.

I also note that in a later recording, Nic switched to "Flanders Shore", probably after the earlier broadsides were brought to his attention.

Subject: RE: Origin: Flandyke Shore (Nic Jones)
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 06:37 AM

AC - you can see Hammond's transcription of Mrs. Notley's Flanders' Shore at the EFDSS Take Six site (search). If you type D743 and search on Alternate reference number in the drop down you'll get the entry (click the black triangle on the left to open the full entry; click the ms images to open the browser).

Mick

Subject: RE: Origin: Flandyke Shore (Nic Jones)
From: Edthefolkie
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 07:29 AM

I've always loved Nic's version of this song. As other people have said, it's dreamlike, probably partly because of the missing bits. I believe he performed it at the Enterprise in Chalk Farm one Sunday evening around 1976, happy days.   

For years I convinced myself that "bullet" in the song means "letter" i.e. a cut down version of "bulletin". But of course the earlier variant in Pepys' collection explicitly states that he cocks his musket and fires the bullet!

Perfect example of a folkie drawing conclusions from inadequate evidence, methinks. Not that THAT's unusual......