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Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?

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Jim Carroll 24 Apr 17 - 12:30 PM
robomatic 24 Apr 17 - 11:25 AM
Will Fly 24 Apr 17 - 09:56 AM
meself 24 Apr 17 - 09:42 AM
Big Al Whittle 24 Apr 17 - 06:27 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Apr 17 - 06:08 AM
Iains 24 Apr 17 - 05:13 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Apr 17 - 03:52 AM
GUEST,Some bloke 24 Apr 17 - 03:49 AM
Steve Shaw 23 Apr 17 - 08:01 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Apr 17 - 06:54 AM
Jon Freeman 23 Apr 17 - 06:10 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Apr 17 - 06:08 AM
Steve Shaw 23 Apr 17 - 05:10 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Apr 17 - 02:58 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Apr 17 - 02:30 AM
michaelr 22 Apr 17 - 10:11 PM
Jackaroodave 22 Apr 17 - 09:53 PM
toadfrog 22 Apr 17 - 08:24 PM
Steve Shaw 22 Apr 17 - 07:55 PM
Steve Shaw 22 Apr 17 - 07:52 PM
GUEST,pauperback ^ 22 Apr 17 - 09:06 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Apr 17 - 06:02 AM
Big Al Whittle 22 Apr 17 - 04:59 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Apr 17 - 04:19 AM
GUEST,Jar Jar Banks 22 Apr 17 - 01:35 AM
Jackaroodave 21 Apr 17 - 08:38 PM
Steve Shaw 21 Apr 17 - 05:44 PM
robomatic 21 Apr 17 - 05:12 PM
GUEST 21 Apr 17 - 12:23 PM
Jack Campin 21 Apr 17 - 11:11 AM
GUEST 21 Apr 17 - 10:24 AM
GUEST,Some bloke 21 Apr 17 - 08:46 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Apr 17 - 08:31 AM
akenaton 21 Apr 17 - 08:12 AM
Jack Campin 21 Apr 17 - 04:15 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Apr 17 - 04:03 AM
Dave Hanson 21 Apr 17 - 03:00 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Apr 17 - 02:28 AM
ollaimh 21 Apr 17 - 12:48 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Apr 17 - 07:59 PM
GUEST,Mathew 20 Apr 17 - 07:09 PM
Stanron 20 Apr 17 - 03:36 PM
Jim Carroll 20 Apr 17 - 03:06 PM
Jackaroodave 20 Apr 17 - 02:59 PM
Jim Carroll 20 Apr 17 - 02:40 PM
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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Apr 17 - 12:30 PM

"Now, tell me if I'm mistaken, but is Guinness destined for the UK now only brewed in Ireland? "
I'm not sure Will
I haven't had a pint in England for many years, but the last time I did it was awful.
I'm told it isn't as good as here by aficionados, but the same people are just as likely to tell me that Clare Guinness is not as good as Dublin's
Will let you know in a couple of weeks when I visit Liverpool.
"Joyce freak"
Never got on with Joyce- those who tell you he was a good writer are just as likely to tell you the Welsh can sing!
I attended a talk given by one of our senators a few years ago, David Norris - on Finnegan's Wake
I got into a friendly argument with him in the car park when I told him I found the book utterly impenetrable
Mind you, I constantly rowed with my dear late friend, Tom Munnelly over his love of Wagner
Takes all kinds....!
"I like the idea of re-wiring the King's head."
Never thought of that - I can think of several members of the monarchy it might be an improvement on!!
It used to be one of the best music pubs in West London
Every morning, throughout the months I worked there the guvn'or would open the too to me with a milk bottle full of home-made Poitín which he would offer to me as a start to the day.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: robomatic
Date: 24 Apr 17 - 11:25 AM

My introduction to Dylan was when I induced a mate of mine to go Winter camping with me. We'd hike in before a predicted snowstorm, tent up, then trek out amidst the fresh snow. On the way in we encountered a freezing stream that we had to cross. It was iced over, but the ice was not thick enough to support our weight.
My companion insisted on sending a pre-hike postcard to his missus written as though it was his last communication - ever.
And all the way in he kept repeating the lines from ISIS:

"The wind it was howling, the snow was outrageous
We chopped through the night and we chopped through the dawn
When he died I was hoping it was not contagious
But I made up my mind I had to go on."


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Will Fly
Date: 24 Apr 17 - 09:56 AM

Now, tell me if I'm mistaken, but is Guinness destined for the UK now only brewed in Ireland? I lived not far from the Park Royal brewery in Hanger Lane, many years ago, and often caught the smell of the malting on the way to work (Piccadilly Line).

I know that Park Royal brewery has been demolished - so, presumably, the Guinness we drink here is the same as that drunk in Ireland. Or are there parallel brewings for the different countries?


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: meself
Date: 24 Apr 17 - 09:42 AM

The barmaid asked, of course, what the gent would HAVE - and he replied, "I'll have ... and I'll have ...." And, yes, I WAS there, as a matter of fact; that was me in the corner, pretending to be lost in contemplation of the head of my Guinness.

By the way, speaking of heads, I like the idea of re-wiring the King's head. Sounds kind of futuristic. And a little more humane than just chopping it off.


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Apr 17 - 06:27 AM

I remember the first time I went to Dublin - being a Joyce freak, the first place I made for was Davy Byrne's. I was all wired up expecting Irish Guinness (and if possible a gorgonzola sandwich like Leopold Bloom). And I've got to admit - it was a bit anticlimactic...

As Molly Bloom said....yes! yes! yes! yes! ....no not really.


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Apr 17 - 06:08 AM

Thanks for that Ians
Nice to know the message is finally getting through
Even in Ireland, the quality of a pint was variable until the Brewery took the matter in hand, educated many of the publicans and carried out regular maintenance checks.
I worked in London pubs for seven years as a maintenance and repair electrician and became a keen observer of the Capital's drinking habits
I re-wired the Kings Head in Fulham and watched an elderly Irishman cone in for his pint every afternoon - the publican was also an elderly Irishman who invariably served at the bar
One afternoon he came in while the publican was busy down the bar and the customer was greeted by a young barmaid who asked him what he wanted.
He replied, "I'll have a pint of Guinness (pointing to the publican) and I'll have him serving me"
The speed of the pouring and the temperature seem to be the secret – an art form.
Even the Guinness Brewery in Park Royal, North London, could only manage a passable pint –
The best one ever in London was served at ' The Sense of Ireland' a music and culture festival where they imported it direct.
Best pint in Dublin was at The Guinness Hop Store adjacent to the Brewery where we shared a pint with Ireland's President, Mary Robinson at the opening of the Irish Traditional Music Archive (well - she was there anyway)
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Iains
Date: 24 Apr 17 - 05:13 AM

Jim
the mixture of milk and piss that is passed off as Guinness in the U.K

FYI

https://food-hacks.wonderhowto.com/news/why-guinness-tastes-better-ireland-more-surprising-guinness-facts-0160783/


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Apr 17 - 03:52 AM

"T Rex were far more cosmic"
Different, therefore equal, as Peggy Seeger sings
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: GUEST,Some bloke
Date: 24 Apr 17 - 03:49 AM

Still reeling over the revelation about Einstein. What a bastard! I'll never feel the same about stuffing cats in boxes and blaming others for it.

T Rex were far more cosmic than any orchestra, even when playing Holst...


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Apr 17 - 08:01 AM

That was probably after six pints of Boddies, Jim. 😊


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Apr 17 - 06:54 AM

MacColl called it 'The Athens of the North'
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 23 Apr 17 - 06:10 AM

It's a dirty old town...


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Apr 17 - 06:08 AM

I knew a feller from Salford once
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Apr 17 - 05:10 AM

I'll not drink that thickened concoction of burnt malt, unfermentables and low levels of hops, Jim. Give me a well-brewed pint or six of cask-conditioned bitter any day. Guinness is Dylan, Jail Ale is MacColl. Oi, I may be a sassenach but my mum is a born-and-bred Irish Salfordian!


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Apr 17 - 02:58 AM

Missed a bit
"I didn't say he was a grumpy old sod,"
Didn't think you did Steve, - it was an opportunity to reiterate a point which comes up far too often.
"And that offer of a pint (or ten) is very enticing."
And still stands, though I very much doubt if a Sassenach could survive more than three decently pulled pints, after the mixture of milk and piss that is passed off as Guinness in the U.K. - makes me gag to recall that I once drank the stuff shudderrrrrr!!!
A story
An Irishman walks into an English bar and asks for a pint of Guinness - he takes a mouthful, leans over the bar, pours the pint down the sink and says "piss", and walks out.
The following night he does the same - and the following night.
On the fourth night, before he can order the landlord say, "Piss off".
"O.k.", says your man, "pull me a pint of lager instead".
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Apr 17 - 02:30 AM

"Not a hanging offense."
Of course it isn't Michael, and if Dylan had come under the sustained, lifelong attacks that MacColl has had aimed at him, and still is, it would be equally outrageous.
Arguments like these have the inevitable consequences of forcing people to take sides in a war that really should not be being fought.
Dylan and MacColl were two different people with different objectives, yet one is constantly being set against the other - you may just as well compare the work of the National Concert Orchestra with that of T Rex.
I only get involved in these sometimes extremely nasty and very personal debates because I believe that a mass of very important work on an even more important subject is being wasted,
MacColl's argument from day one was that Folk Song was 'The Voice of the People - he equally argued that the ballads where "the highwater of the tradition and, at because of what they were, they were every bit as important as Shakespeare, or Dickens, as aspects of our culture.
It seems a fair enough argument to at least listen to what he had to say rather than throw stones at it
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: michaelr
Date: 22 Apr 17 - 10:11 PM

Dylan was barely in his twenties at the time. Does anyone really think it's fair to judge him by a mature standard? He heard songs he liked and felt inspired. Not a hanging offense.


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Jackaroodave
Date: 22 Apr 17 - 09:53 PM

According to Bob Spitz"s biography of Dylan, here , Seeger never cut a cable. He threatened to cut The Butterfield Blues Band's cable, not Dylan's, and the person who persuaded him not to was . . . .Theo Bikel!

Spitz is obviously relying on a detailed eyewitness report, and equally obviously, everyone involved--Al Grossman and Peter Yarrow, vs George Wein and Pete Seeger, with Bikel tipping the balance--was an interested party. Bikel allegedly said, "Pete, those kids out there, they're us 20 years ago." I would guess that Bikel is the source of the very circumstantial account, because he comes out lookihg the best.

Also, what we can agree is true is that MacColl disliked Dylan because he thought he abused the tradition, not that Dylan in fact did so. I wrote before of Dylan's ruthlessly using his tradition, overlapping with, but different from MacColl's, for his own ends, but I think that is paying it true homage. It's what artists do.


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: toadfrog
Date: 22 Apr 17 - 08:24 PM

Meself:
I guess the question whether Dylan understood, or bothered to try to understand, the traditions he used and pretended to be a part of, is a "matter of opinion," as you say.

But the question was, why did Ewan McColl not like Dylan. And McColl definitely felt that Dylan abused folk material which McColl valued. Even I heard him say so several times, and many of those who actually knew McColl heard it many more times than that. And Pete Seeger agreed, at least to the extent he cut Dylan's cable with an axe. So that is a legitimate answer to the question, why McColl did not like Dylan. It was because Dylan abused traditional material. And maybe that is also a sufficient answer.


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Apr 17 - 07:55 PM

And that offer of a pint (or ten) is very enticing. You pay for the first eight, and, don't worry, I'll get the rest...!


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Apr 17 - 07:52 PM

Hey, Jim, I didn't say he was a grumpy old sod, just a what-if-anyway - you knew him and I didn't and I never believe the naysayers, you should know that about me by now! 😉


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: GUEST,pauperback ^
Date: 22 Apr 17 - 09:06 AM

Disingenuous.
Everyone knows,
Deep down inside,
Why they don't like,
A jew with a welch name!


Bob Dillion, who knew! 


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Apr 17 - 06:02 AM

That's the theory Al
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 Apr 17 - 04:59 AM

so that bastard Einstein was picking his nose all the time...


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Apr 17 - 04:19 AM

This is the last time I have any intention of responding to this level of discussion - it is, as it always has done acted as a diversion away from the contribution MacColl made to Folk song
It's like dismissing Einstein's theory of relativity because he picked his nose - true or not - trivia.
Let's get the easy, hoary old chestnut out of the way first
"For the record, Ewen MacColl was born James Henry Miller." (Ewan - for the record)
For the record - Bob Dylan was was born Robert Zimmermann - do you people continually bring up that fact as a criticism of his work as an artist and will you be doing so a quarter of a century after his death?
What on earth is the relevance of this piece of trivia?
The reason MacColl changed his name is easy enough to work out, if it interests anybody enough.
He was first and foremost an actor and a playwright - go count the number of actors, singers, writers who changed their names from Archie Leech, or Ethel Gumm, or Doris Kapplehoff, or, more or to the point, from James Leslie Mitchell or Christopher Murray Grieve (the artists who influenced MacColl
Ewan had an added reason of altering his name as he was attempting to steer clear of the authorities (including MI5) in order to set u a working class agit-prop theatre.
"Stalinist"
Ewan had been a Stalinist, as had been a large section of the left and middle-left movement at a time in our history when Stalin was flavour of the month to millions of people and believed him to be the leader of the world's first Workers State.
Around the time of my birth, it might be said that the British statesmen of the day were 'Stalinists' because of the part Russia was playing in the war - I've yet to hear anybody refer to Winnie Churchill as a Stalinist"
Over the period I knew and worked with Ewan. I never got the slightest impression that he still held those views -
On the contrary, Ewan was first and foremost a humanist (with a small "h") who believed 'ordinary people were getting a shitty deal out of life and were nor recognised for either their achievements or their massive potential - a view I have always held as did my family before me.
Ewan's social songs (such as those he wrote for the Radio Ballads) reflect Ewan's humanism and his respect for working people perfectly
His political songs did not advocate the setting up of gulags or holding show trials (that was and still is a feature of contemporary politics such as the House Un-American Activity Courts of Joe McCarthy and later, Guantanamo (though the latter has even done away with the trials).
His political songs were observations on how he saw what was happening in the world at the time, the best of the philosophical ones probably being 'Song of Choice' and 'Seven Days of the Week'.
MacColl's 'feigned' Scottishness'
He was born into a Scots family, fairly recently come out of Scotland.
When I moved to London, I lived with Ewan, Peggy and Ewan's mother, Betsy for a short period.
At mealtimes, to listen to Ewan and Betsy talk was sometimes like sitting at a meal with an Urdu family - in those days I wasn't as familiar with the Scots dialect and vernacular as I am now.
Scots was MacColl family's form of communication.
Ewan adored the ballads and thought them important enough to keep them alive (he breathed fresh life into sometimes multiple versions 175 of the Child ballads in his career as a singer)
In order to make them accessible to as many people as possible, he adopted the old theatre trick of neutralising the accent he was familiar with at home.
It most certainly worked with me - I am still hooked on the ballads after half a century of listening to and singing them, thanks to his influence.         
Ewan's earlier influence of Scots songs came from home too
I know from discussions with some of his early contempories, historian, Eddie Frow being the main one, that both his parents sang at home, particularly his father William, who "had hundreds of bits and pieces of queer old songs and ballads he would bust into whenever he'd had a few drinks".
This is a description of Ewans first being discovered singing for pennies in a cinema queue in the 1930s:
"Ewan MacColl was himself a victim of the Depression. The son of an unemployed Glasgow steelworker, who had moved to Salford in search of work during the twenties, he had suffered every privation and humiliation that poverty could contrive for him from the age of ten. His memories of his early years are still bitter—like his recollection of how to kill aimless time in a world where there was nothing else to do: "You go in the Public Library. And the old men are there standing against the pipes to get warm, all the newspaper parts are occupied, and you pick a book up. I can remember then that you got the smell of the unemployed, a kind of sour or bitter-sweet smell, mixed in with the smell of old books, dust, leather and the rest of it. So now if I pick up, say, a Dostoevsky—immediately with the first page, there's that smell of poverty in 1931."
MacColl had been out busking for pennies by the Manchester theatres and cinemas. The songs he sang were unusual, Scots songs, Gaelic songs he had learnt from his mother, border ballads and folk-songs. One night while queueing up for the three-and-sixpennies, Kenneth Adam had heard him singing outside the Manchester Paramount. He was suitably impressed. Not only did he give MacColl a handout; he also advised him to go and audition for Archie Harding at the BBC studios in Manchester's Piccadilly.
PROSPERO AND ARIEL (The rise and fall of radio, a personal recollection – D G Bridson 1971)"
I really can't be arsed to take this too much further
I don't care who likes or dislikes Ewan's or Dylan's singing - that is a matter of personal taste and has no place here
I personally believe Dylan to have been a user in his scramble to the top - that is the impression I got from reading what Joan Baez had to say about him, but h doesn't interest me enough beyond his effect on our understanding of our own traditional songs
I did not "change my story" about Dylan's Civil Rights attitude - I really don't care enough to make the effort on something so unimportant, though I am amused that people who are quite happy to denigrate one artist long after he is dead, leap on their chairs with their skirts above their knees when their own pop idol is criticised.
MacColl cared enough about traditional songs and about people to take his work as a singer far beyond entertainment and putting bums on seats and that got up the noses of a lot of people who saw it as a career that could be as viable as anything turned out my the music industry, and were prepared to compromise it in order to get there.
He wasn't a "grumpy old sod", Steve, at least not in my experience, but I'd be happy to compare our experiences over a pint - not here.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: GUEST,Jar Jar Banks
Date: 22 Apr 17 - 01:35 AM

Yeah but what did you do for the civil rights movement ollaimh ?


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Jackaroodave
Date: 21 Apr 17 - 08:38 PM

As an ignorant old sod and a newbie here, I was very pleased that this thread from 2012 had been revived. I had heard of MacColl, but I think I thought he and Ed McCurdy were the same person. Not only did I read this thread through, but I looked at a number of other lengthy MacColl threads, and I feel I have a sense of him as an undeniable force and a greater awareness of what I have yet to learn. I'm grateful to both Jim Carroll and those who differed with him for a fascinating portrait of a complex, gifted, and dedicated contributor who wasn't always easy to get along with. (Not unlike the other figure in this thread.)

However, after a few minutes into these threads, the answer to the question it posed was staggeringly obvious: Dylan seemed put on earth expressly to push every one of MacColl"s buttons: one was a Stalinist, the other an individualist anarchist (or capitalist swine if you prefer); one spent an enormous amount of energy raising and enforcing standards, the other in disrupting them. Their attitudes towards tradition were antithetical, to the extent that some of MacColl's followers don't admit any legitimacy in Dylan's use of tradition at all. And of course, in breaking the rules and setting standards at defiance, Dylan was successful beyond ANYONE's dreams during the Great Folk Music Scare. MacColl must have felt at times, "There is no Materialist Dialectic."

So, when we get yet another post informing us that Ewan MacColl was born Jimmy Miller, It seems to me we're well into the rinse-and-repeat cycle. I'd love to see a thread on MacColl's theater work. I wouldn't mind if it replaced this one.

Maybe it's not my place to suggest it, but I sincerely believe there are better ways to see MacColl clearly than by refraction through the prism of his dislike for Dylan.


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Apr 17 - 05:44 PM

It was Ewan, actually, not "Ewen." If he was a grumpy old sod, then equally it could be said that Dylan is an exceptionally ignorant old sod. As if it matters. Which it doesn't. Grumpy old sods are often grumpy because they have to deal with twats. The greatest man who ever lived, Ludwig van Beethoven, was the grumpiest old sod in eternity. He offended his friends, alienated his fellow musicians and accused all and sundry of cheating him out of his money. Who cares. Just listen to the sonata in A flat, Op. 110. That'll shut you up.


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: robomatic
Date: 21 Apr 17 - 05:12 PM

An earlier posting in this thread:

"Dylan joined the pantheon of successful Jewish songwriters and musicians (most of whom also changed their names):"

I would put it, (if it must be put at all), that Dylan joined the pantheon of successful songwriters who were of Jewish origin.
There's a bit of separatism and more than a bit of condescension in how many of the 'trad' crowd view those of certain ethnic origins.

For the record, Ewen MacColl was born James Henry Miller.


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Apr 17 - 12:23 PM

It is not trivial nitpicking to ask that people verify accusations. I have heard this Dylan story many times, I was curious as the source. Simple as that. It is pompous asses like you Jack who make people want to be anonymous.


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 21 Apr 17 - 11:11 AM

Many people have good reason for remaining Guests

Mainly, and in your case, because they think they'd never live it down if their friends knew they indulged in such trivial nitpicking.

Hint: your friends know you're a pettifogging twat already.


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Apr 17 - 10:24 AM

Jim, you appear to have changed your story, you said that Bikel approached Dylan and offered him a ticket. But Bikel did not approach Dylan, he approached Dylans r Manager, Albert Grossman, to whom he gave money to cover Dylans fare to Mississippi. So you now seem to accept that Bikel did not speak to Dylan on this subject. That is how your narrative has changed.
Sandman, my many years of coming to this forum leads me to observe that people seem only to wish to ban Guests who disagree with them. That is certainly true below the line.
Many people have good reason for remaining Guests and should not be barred from music discussion because they may disagree with other posters.


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: GUEST,Some bloke
Date: 21 Apr 17 - 08:46 AM

And so it goes.

Jim Carroll defending MacColl whilst adding Bobby Kennedy to the list of people he slurs. Someone getting songs mixed up whilst pointing out Dylan isn't right wing enough for him and more than one on here calling others liars without foundation on the basis it makes their waffle look flaky.   Heresay regarding both protagonists in the thread title from all of us and what do you get?

I've never met Dylan, a few concerts are the nearest I've got. I know a few people who knew him many years ago and to be honest, even their first hand knowledge isn't enough for me to think I know something about this complicated genius.

I met MacColl a number of times though, booked them twice and interviewed them for radio twice. I'm no expert on him, just as nobody else is, but I can agree with those who mention he was a grumpy old sod who tried laying down arbitrary rules about what is at the end of the day just entertainment. I hadn't been born in 1954 never mind took minutes of a committee convened to get excited about putting rules around artistic creation...

MacColl's view on Dylan? About as relevant as my rants about celery and greyhound cruelty. Both genuine but at the end of the day, facts about my views, not debating points.


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Apr 17 - 08:31 AM

It's a load of invented crap anyway
If a member of the Singers Club had behaved like that to a visitor, he'd have been heaved out on his ear
Another of those urban legends
Don't know where Ollie is from, but how the **** did his "hard faced guy" know where he came from
Jeeze - if you're going to invent stories you need a bit more imagination than that
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Apr 17 - 08:12 AM

The Dark Island is a "pop" song anyway, written for a TV series of the same name.


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 21 Apr 17 - 04:15 AM

some hard faced super serious guy was singing dark island in english. back in nova scotia we sang the verses in english but the chorus in gaelic. so i was excited, they were singing a song i knew! (first one) then they got to the chorus and i was the only one singing "oh chi , chi me na morbheanna"

So you were singing the chorus of a completely different song.


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Apr 17 - 04:03 AM

Ollie's post was exactly what I needed as an example of the totally irrational attitude to MacColl and his work
A vitriolic outpouring of abuse from someone who has obviously never met him or spoken to him and saw he one "as a teenager".
An outpouring of hate from someone accusing MacColl of "hate", from an anonymous individual using a faake name castigating MacColl for using a fake name - you couldn't make it up
I couldn't have got a better example if I had faked it myself
Many thanks Ollie - give my love to Stan
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 21 Apr 17 - 03:00 AM

ollaimh, is ' Bob Dylan ' not a fake name then ?

Dave H


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Apr 17 - 02:28 AM

"however what he knew was just hate."
Which just about sums up your posting Ollie
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: ollaimh
Date: 21 Apr 17 - 12:48 AM

i am not a dylan fan. however he was a great very good song writer who didn't do anything hypocritical just promoted himself. that's show biz.

on the other hand mccoll
s adoption of a fake gaelic name, the name of one of the last of the great gaelic bards in the ancient tradition, was cultural appropriation amounting to racism. so i should call my self william shakespeare. if dylan had done that people would have howled but mccoll's appropriation shows the total distain for gaels amongst our british friends. they committed genocide so they continue with cultural genocide. mccoll was a decent song writer but a garden variety brit racist.

i went to his singers club once as a teenager on the europe tour. some hard faced super serious guy was singing dark island in english. back in nova scotia we sang the verses in english but the chorus in gaelic. so i was excited, they were singing a song i knew! (first one) then they got to the chorus and i was the only one singing "oh chi , chi me na morbheanna" etc. they all stopped and stared at me. i stopped . the hard faced guy came over and said we sing the songs of our own country. i said that's a song from my country. he said no it's not. i was young and didn't understand their complicated theories of hate for gaels. i just thought well he must know something i don't know ans shut up and left.

    anglos think if their hate is complicated enough then it's ok, trump didn't jump from the head of zeus full grown, he's a the fulillment of anglo culture. (as is richard bridges and his hate)

however what he knew was just hate.


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 07:59 PM

Mathew
I sent you an e-mail
reply so I know I have our address right
Jim


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: GUEST,Mathew
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 07:09 PM

Jim, please let me know about those recordings.

Sandman, you're a silly sod


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Stanron
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 03:36 PM

So he wasn't guilty but the accusation was a good one.


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 03:06 PM

"But he DID go, Jim."
Reluctantly, it would appear
It really isn't that important now - just an indication of how shallow his commitment to the people he sang about was.
It is also how shallow the whole of the sixties was - it took Paris to shake it out of its lethargy
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Jackaroodave
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 02:59 PM

But he DID go, Jim.


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 02:40 PM

Dylan made his name as a 'protest singer' and did quite well out of it.
Going to Mississippi would have been a small thank you for a launched career
I saw the remarkable Baldwin documentary last week which told how Bobby Kennedy was invited to walk into the all-white school in Louisiana with the brave black girl, Ruby Bridges
He declined
What a difference it would have made if a few more personalities had put their money where their mouths were
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 02:03 PM

imo,The sooner guest postings are banned on this forum the better


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Jackaroodave
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 01:30 PM

Look, a miniscule number of people who supported the civil rights movement actually went to Mississippi. Bob Dylan was one of them.

The vast majority did not. I was one of them and so, I am pretty sure, are most of the posters here who ragged on him.


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 12:08 PM

"I have no argument about McColl. My question was about the veracity of your ever changing Dylan story."
I've never changed it - if I have, where?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Why didn't MacColl like Dylan?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 20 Apr 17 - 11:58 AM

With at least four people who could have directly reported the story, it's surprising it hasn't diverged more.


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