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BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth

Sawzaw 13 Jul 12 - 12:04 AM
Jack the Sailor 13 Jul 12 - 12:07 AM
Richard Bridge 13 Jul 12 - 12:36 AM
meself 13 Jul 12 - 01:00 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 13 Jul 12 - 02:59 AM
Leadfingers 13 Jul 12 - 03:12 AM
Elmore 13 Jul 12 - 11:04 AM
GUEST,999 13 Jul 12 - 11:18 AM
GUEST,999 13 Jul 12 - 11:20 AM
GUEST,Stim 13 Jul 12 - 11:44 AM
Penny S. 13 Jul 12 - 11:53 AM
Bill D 13 Jul 12 - 12:01 PM
Amos 13 Jul 12 - 12:03 PM
Bobert 13 Jul 12 - 12:13 PM
MarkS 13 Jul 12 - 12:28 PM
Jack the Sailor 13 Jul 12 - 12:43 PM
GUEST,Stim 13 Jul 12 - 12:51 PM
JohnInKansas 13 Jul 12 - 01:00 PM
GUEST,Chongo Chimp 13 Jul 12 - 01:14 PM
Rapparee 13 Jul 12 - 01:14 PM
Greg F. 13 Jul 12 - 01:22 PM
John MacKenzie 13 Jul 12 - 01:48 PM
Bert 13 Jul 12 - 01:57 PM
Jack the Sailor 13 Jul 12 - 02:17 PM
GUEST,999 13 Jul 12 - 02:32 PM
Charley Noble 13 Jul 12 - 02:49 PM
Stringsinger 13 Jul 12 - 03:07 PM
Dave Hanson 13 Jul 12 - 03:15 PM
GUEST,999 13 Jul 12 - 04:48 PM
Bert 13 Jul 12 - 04:50 PM
McGrath of Harlow 13 Jul 12 - 06:11 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 13 Jul 12 - 07:05 PM
Bobert 13 Jul 12 - 07:41 PM
Rapparee 13 Jul 12 - 08:57 PM
Bobert 13 Jul 12 - 09:15 PM
Rapparee 13 Jul 12 - 09:20 PM
Sawzaw 13 Jul 12 - 09:32 PM
Bobert 13 Jul 12 - 09:36 PM
GUEST,999 13 Jul 12 - 09:43 PM
Rapparee 13 Jul 12 - 10:05 PM
GUEST 13 Jul 12 - 10:09 PM
GUEST,999 13 Jul 12 - 10:32 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 13 Jul 12 - 11:37 PM
GUEST,Eliza 14 Jul 12 - 02:37 AM
GUEST 14 Jul 12 - 02:58 AM
Jack Campin 14 Jul 12 - 09:03 AM
Arkie 14 Jul 12 - 09:52 AM
Charley Noble 14 Jul 12 - 10:09 AM
GUEST,Stim 14 Jul 12 - 11:09 AM
number 6 14 Jul 12 - 11:39 AM
GUEST,999 14 Jul 12 - 12:57 PM
Little Hawk 14 Jul 12 - 01:07 PM
GUEST,999 14 Jul 12 - 01:20 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 14 Jul 12 - 01:34 PM
GUEST,olddude 14 Jul 12 - 01:45 PM
Dave Hanson 14 Jul 12 - 02:28 PM
McGrath of Harlow 14 Jul 12 - 02:54 PM
Bobert 14 Jul 12 - 03:11 PM
Bobert 14 Jul 12 - 08:10 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 14 Jul 12 - 09:27 PM
GUEST,999 14 Jul 12 - 10:20 PM
GUEST,Stim 14 Jul 12 - 10:56 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 15 Jul 12 - 12:32 AM
Kampervan 15 Jul 12 - 12:45 AM
Bobert 15 Jul 12 - 01:55 AM
Jack the Sailor 15 Jul 12 - 02:11 AM
GUEST,Stim 15 Jul 12 - 03:13 AM
GUEST,Stim 15 Jul 12 - 03:15 AM
bobad 15 Jul 12 - 08:04 AM
GUEST,999 15 Jul 12 - 09:16 AM
Greg F. 15 Jul 12 - 09:42 AM
GUEST,999 15 Jul 12 - 09:49 AM
McGrath of Harlow 15 Jul 12 - 12:33 PM
Bobert 15 Jul 12 - 12:39 PM
Bobert 15 Jul 12 - 12:42 PM
McGrath of Harlow 15 Jul 12 - 01:06 PM
pdq 15 Jul 12 - 01:09 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 15 Jul 12 - 01:17 PM
Bobert 15 Jul 12 - 02:19 PM
GUEST,Eliza 15 Jul 12 - 02:39 PM
Greg F. 15 Jul 12 - 02:54 PM
McGrath of Harlow 15 Jul 12 - 02:58 PM
Charley Noble 15 Jul 12 - 03:35 PM
GUEST 15 Jul 12 - 04:07 PM
GUEST,Eliza 15 Jul 12 - 04:23 PM
pdq 15 Jul 12 - 04:34 PM
GUEST,999 15 Jul 12 - 05:09 PM
Bobert 15 Jul 12 - 05:28 PM
pdq 15 Jul 12 - 05:46 PM
Jack the Sailor 15 Jul 12 - 05:52 PM
GUEST,Eliza 15 Jul 12 - 05:57 PM
McGrath of Harlow 15 Jul 12 - 06:18 PM
Jack the Sailor 15 Jul 12 - 06:19 PM
Jack the Sailor 15 Jul 12 - 06:19 PM
bobad 15 Jul 12 - 07:13 PM
Bobert 15 Jul 12 - 08:32 PM
GUEST,Stim 15 Jul 12 - 09:32 PM
Jack the Sailor 15 Jul 12 - 10:14 PM
Bobert 15 Jul 12 - 10:22 PM
Bobert 15 Jul 12 - 10:22 PM
Jack the Sailor 15 Jul 12 - 10:35 PM
Bobert 15 Jul 12 - 10:52 PM
GUEST,999 16 Jul 12 - 02:05 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 16 Jul 12 - 02:27 AM
Jack the Sailor 16 Jul 12 - 02:53 AM
Penny S. 16 Jul 12 - 04:05 AM
GUEST,Eliza 16 Jul 12 - 04:17 AM
GUEST,Stim 16 Jul 12 - 09:39 AM
Bobert 16 Jul 12 - 10:16 AM
Jack the Sailor 16 Jul 12 - 10:47 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 16 Jul 12 - 11:49 AM
Sandy Mc Lean 16 Jul 12 - 12:29 PM
Charley Noble 16 Jul 12 - 12:34 PM
GUEST,999 16 Jul 12 - 12:52 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 16 Jul 12 - 12:53 PM
GUEST 16 Jul 12 - 12:57 PM
GUEST,999 16 Jul 12 - 12:58 PM
Jack the Sailor 16 Jul 12 - 02:09 PM
Bobert 16 Jul 12 - 02:17 PM
Jack the Sailor 16 Jul 12 - 02:38 PM
Bobert 16 Jul 12 - 02:41 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 16 Jul 12 - 02:44 PM
Jack the Sailor 16 Jul 12 - 03:50 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 16 Jul 12 - 03:52 PM
Jack the Sailor 16 Jul 12 - 04:11 PM
Bobert 16 Jul 12 - 04:15 PM
Jack the Sailor 16 Jul 12 - 04:38 PM
Wesley S 16 Jul 12 - 04:48 PM
Bobert 16 Jul 12 - 05:52 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 16 Jul 12 - 06:31 PM
Bobert 16 Jul 12 - 06:55 PM
Jack the Sailor 16 Jul 12 - 07:14 PM
Bobert 16 Jul 12 - 07:26 PM
Jack the Sailor 16 Jul 12 - 07:27 PM
GUEST,Stim 16 Jul 12 - 10:41 PM
Bobert 16 Jul 12 - 10:54 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 16 Jul 12 - 11:44 PM
GUEST,Stim 17 Jul 12 - 02:06 AM
Bobert 17 Jul 12 - 09:04 AM
Greg F. 17 Jul 12 - 10:18 AM
Bobert 17 Jul 12 - 10:29 AM
Stringsinger 17 Jul 12 - 10:48 AM
GUEST,Stim 17 Jul 12 - 11:55 AM
GUEST,999 17 Jul 12 - 12:11 PM
Stringsinger 17 Jul 12 - 12:43 PM
Stringsinger 17 Jul 12 - 12:49 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 17 Jul 12 - 12:58 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 17 Jul 12 - 01:12 PM
GUEST,Stim 17 Jul 12 - 01:47 PM
pdq 17 Jul 12 - 02:13 PM
GUEST,999 17 Jul 12 - 02:22 PM
pdq 17 Jul 12 - 02:41 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 17 Jul 12 - 02:55 PM
Stringsinger 17 Jul 12 - 04:26 PM
GUEST,999 17 Jul 12 - 04:31 PM
McGrath of Harlow 17 Jul 12 - 04:55 PM
Bobert 17 Jul 12 - 05:15 PM
GUEST,Stim 17 Jul 12 - 06:09 PM
GUEST,999 17 Jul 12 - 07:12 PM
Jack the Sailor 17 Jul 12 - 07:19 PM
Bobert 17 Jul 12 - 07:21 PM
GUEST,999 17 Jul 12 - 08:02 PM
pdq 17 Jul 12 - 08:03 PM
Jack the Sailor 17 Jul 12 - 08:19 PM
Bobert 17 Jul 12 - 08:20 PM
GUEST,999 17 Jul 12 - 08:33 PM
pdq 17 Jul 12 - 08:43 PM
Bobert 17 Jul 12 - 08:53 PM
Jack the Sailor 17 Jul 12 - 08:54 PM
GUEST,999 17 Jul 12 - 09:07 PM
Greg F. 18 Jul 12 - 09:44 AM
GUEST,Stim 18 Jul 12 - 01:07 PM
Jack the Sailor 18 Jul 12 - 01:36 PM
Rapparee 18 Jul 12 - 02:49 PM
Bobert 18 Jul 12 - 07:26 PM
McGrath of Harlow 18 Jul 12 - 07:28 PM
GUEST,Stim 18 Jul 12 - 07:48 PM
Bobert 18 Jul 12 - 07:59 PM
GUEST 18 Jul 12 - 08:17 PM
Jack the Sailor 18 Jul 12 - 08:31 PM
Bobert 18 Jul 12 - 09:23 PM
GUEST,Stim 18 Jul 12 - 09:53 PM
GUEST,Stim 18 Jul 12 - 10:00 PM
Sawzaw 19 Aug 12 - 01:11 PM
Bobert 19 Aug 12 - 01:34 PM
GUEST,999 19 Aug 12 - 10:08 PM
SPB-Cooperator 20 Aug 12 - 03:35 AM
Henry Krinkle 20 Aug 12 - 04:57 AM
Owen Woodson 20 Aug 12 - 05:33 AM
Dave Hanson 20 Aug 12 - 07:13 AM
Bobert 20 Aug 12 - 09:57 AM
Sawzaw 20 Aug 12 - 11:38 AM
Bobert 20 Aug 12 - 01:14 PM
Sawzaw 20 Aug 12 - 02:05 PM
Little Hawk 20 Aug 12 - 03:00 PM
Sawzaw 20 Aug 12 - 03:22 PM
Little Hawk 20 Aug 12 - 04:02 PM
Bobert 20 Aug 12 - 06:10 PM
Musket 21 Aug 12 - 04:43 AM
Bobert 21 Aug 12 - 09:31 AM
Little Hawk 21 Aug 12 - 10:00 AM
McGrath of Harlow 21 Aug 12 - 10:22 AM
Sawzaw 21 Aug 12 - 10:35 AM
Little Hawk 21 Aug 12 - 11:21 AM
Sawzaw 21 Aug 12 - 11:59 AM
Bobert 21 Aug 12 - 02:10 PM
Sawzaw 21 Aug 12 - 04:10 PM
McGrath of Harlow 21 Aug 12 - 04:28 PM
Bobert 21 Aug 12 - 04:42 PM
Bobert 21 Aug 12 - 04:51 PM
Sawzaw 21 Aug 12 - 04:53 PM
Sawzaw 21 Aug 12 - 05:34 PM
Bobert 21 Aug 12 - 05:36 PM
Little Hawk 21 Aug 12 - 05:52 PM
GUEST 21 Aug 12 - 05:58 PM
Sawzaw 21 Aug 12 - 06:02 PM
Bobert 21 Aug 12 - 07:15 PM
Sawzaw 21 Aug 12 - 11:15 PM
Bobert 22 Aug 12 - 08:38 AM
GUEST,999 22 Aug 12 - 09:23 AM
Bobert 22 Aug 12 - 05:07 PM
GUEST,999 22 Aug 12 - 05:38 PM
Sawzaw 22 Aug 12 - 11:56 PM
GUEST,999 23 Aug 12 - 03:34 AM
Sawzaw 23 Aug 12 - 07:39 AM
GUEST,999 23 Aug 12 - 12:36 PM
pdq 23 Aug 12 - 12:59 PM
Little Hawk 23 Aug 12 - 01:51 PM
dick greenhaus 23 Aug 12 - 02:28 PM
SPB-Cooperator 24 Aug 12 - 07:01 AM
SPB-Cooperator 24 Aug 12 - 07:07 AM
Bobert 24 Aug 12 - 07:14 AM
Sawzaw 24 Aug 12 - 11:30 PM
Sawzaw 24 Aug 12 - 11:36 PM
GUEST,999 25 Aug 12 - 05:55 PM
Sawzaw 25 Aug 12 - 09:14 PM
Q 25 Aug 12 - 09:25 PM
Sawzaw 25 Aug 12 - 10:04 PM
GUEST,999 26 Aug 12 - 10:21 AM
GUEST,999 26 Aug 12 - 10:47 AM
Bobert 26 Aug 12 - 11:28 AM
Sawzaw 26 Aug 12 - 11:49 PM
Little Hawk 27 Aug 12 - 01:36 AM
Sawzaw 27 Aug 12 - 07:25 AM
GUEST,999 27 Aug 12 - 08:01 AM
Bobert 27 Aug 12 - 08:45 AM
GUEST 27 Aug 12 - 11:37 AM
Little Hawk 27 Aug 12 - 11:46 AM
Q 27 Aug 12 - 12:18 PM
Ebbie 27 Aug 12 - 12:37 PM
Q 27 Aug 12 - 01:40 PM
Ebbie 27 Aug 12 - 03:00 PM
Little Hawk 27 Aug 12 - 03:41 PM
GUEST,nobody in particular 27 Aug 12 - 03:43 PM
GUEST,nobody in particular 27 Aug 12 - 03:48 PM
pdq 27 Aug 12 - 04:18 PM
Q 27 Aug 12 - 04:42 PM
GUEST,nobody in particular 27 Aug 12 - 05:11 PM
Bobert 27 Aug 12 - 05:49 PM
Ebbie 27 Aug 12 - 09:15 PM
Bobert 27 Aug 12 - 09:37 PM
Ebbie 27 Aug 12 - 11:27 PM
Sawzaw 28 Aug 12 - 08:45 AM
Ebbie 28 Aug 12 - 01:11 PM
Bobert 28 Aug 12 - 03:13 PM
Little Hawk 28 Aug 12 - 07:43 PM
Bobert 28 Aug 12 - 07:49 PM
pdq 28 Aug 12 - 07:54 PM
Bobert 28 Aug 12 - 08:07 PM
Sawzaw 29 Aug 12 - 10:13 AM
Ebbie 29 Aug 12 - 11:55 AM
Bobert 29 Aug 12 - 01:01 PM
Little Hawk 30 Aug 12 - 04:02 AM
Sawzaw 30 Aug 12 - 05:26 AM
Bobert 30 Aug 12 - 07:54 AM
Sawzaw 30 Aug 12 - 09:12 AM
Ebbie 30 Aug 12 - 01:04 PM
Little Hawk 30 Aug 12 - 02:27 PM
Little Hawk 30 Aug 12 - 03:01 PM
Ebbie 30 Aug 12 - 03:20 PM
Little Hawk 30 Aug 12 - 04:22 PM
Bobert 30 Aug 12 - 04:26 PM
Little Hawk 30 Aug 12 - 04:27 PM
Little Hawk 30 Aug 12 - 04:35 PM
Bobert 30 Aug 12 - 04:49 PM
Elmore 30 Aug 12 - 06:46 PM
Ebbie 30 Aug 12 - 10:06 PM
Bobert 31 Aug 12 - 10:31 AM
Little Hawk 31 Aug 12 - 10:42 AM
GUEST,nobody in particular 31 Aug 12 - 02:53 PM
GUEST,nobody in particular 31 Aug 12 - 04:31 PM
Bobert 31 Aug 12 - 04:52 PM
GUEST,nobody in particular 31 Aug 12 - 05:15 PM
Bobert 31 Aug 12 - 05:47 PM
pdq 31 Aug 12 - 06:06 PM
Sawzaw 31 Aug 12 - 06:24 PM
pdq 31 Aug 12 - 06:26 PM
Bobert 31 Aug 12 - 07:00 PM
pdq 31 Aug 12 - 07:13 PM
Sawzaw 31 Aug 12 - 08:23 PM
Little Hawk 01 Sep 12 - 11:28 AM
Bobert 01 Sep 12 - 11:55 AM
GUEST 01 Sep 12 - 12:56 PM
Sawzaw 01 Sep 12 - 01:07 PM
Little Hawk 01 Sep 12 - 04:33 PM
Ebbie 01 Sep 12 - 05:19 PM
Bobert 01 Sep 12 - 05:21 PM
GUEST,nobody in particular 01 Sep 12 - 06:22 PM
Little Hawk 01 Sep 12 - 07:31 PM
Bobert 01 Sep 12 - 07:54 PM
Little Hawk 01 Sep 12 - 08:21 PM
Bobert 01 Sep 12 - 08:51 PM
Bobert 01 Sep 12 - 09:07 PM
Little Hawk 01 Sep 12 - 10:23 PM
Bobert 01 Sep 12 - 10:34 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 02 Sep 12 - 06:37 AM
Sawzaw 02 Sep 12 - 08:10 AM
Sawzaw 02 Sep 12 - 08:19 AM
Bobert 02 Sep 12 - 09:00 AM
Ebbie 02 Sep 12 - 12:40 PM
Sawzaw 02 Sep 12 - 01:10 PM
Little Hawk 02 Sep 12 - 02:21 PM
Little Hawk 02 Sep 12 - 02:29 PM
GUEST,nobody in particular 02 Sep 12 - 02:39 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 02 Sep 12 - 04:47 PM
Sawzaw 03 Sep 12 - 11:51 AM
Sawzaw 07 Sep 12 - 07:51 AM
Bobert 07 Sep 12 - 09:29 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 07 Sep 12 - 10:57 PM
Bobert 08 Sep 12 - 08:14 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 08 Sep 12 - 08:49 AM
Sawzaw 08 Sep 12 - 11:06 AM
Little Hawk 08 Sep 12 - 01:08 PM
Don Firth 08 Sep 12 - 02:12 PM
Little Hawk 08 Sep 12 - 03:42 PM
Don Firth 08 Sep 12 - 04:09 PM
Don Firth 08 Sep 12 - 04:19 PM
pdq 08 Sep 12 - 04:48 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 08 Sep 12 - 04:56 PM
Don Firth 08 Sep 12 - 06:42 PM
Little Hawk 08 Sep 12 - 06:43 PM
Don Firth 08 Sep 12 - 07:16 PM
Little Hawk 08 Sep 12 - 08:58 PM
Bobert 08 Sep 12 - 09:43 PM
Stringsinger 09 Sep 12 - 10:57 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 13 Sep 12 - 12:23 AM
Ebbie 13 Sep 12 - 12:43 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 13 Sep 12 - 12:59 AM
GUEST,TIA 13 Sep 12 - 08:17 AM
Sawzaw 13 Sep 12 - 08:36 AM
Bobert 13 Sep 12 - 09:04 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 13 Sep 12 - 09:14 AM
GUEST,TIA 13 Sep 12 - 09:22 AM
Bobert 13 Sep 12 - 09:23 AM
Sawzaw 13 Sep 12 - 09:42 AM
Bobert 13 Sep 12 - 09:43 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 13 Sep 12 - 09:59 AM
Sawzaw 13 Sep 12 - 10:01 AM
Bobert 13 Sep 12 - 10:26 AM
Donuel 13 Sep 12 - 10:50 AM
Sawzaw 13 Sep 12 - 11:03 AM
Ebbie 13 Sep 12 - 12:15 PM
Sawzaw 13 Sep 12 - 12:24 PM
Jack the Sailor 13 Sep 12 - 12:54 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 13 Sep 12 - 02:11 PM
Jack the Sailor 13 Sep 12 - 03:44 PM
Bobert 13 Sep 12 - 05:46 PM
Sawzaw 13 Sep 12 - 11:21 PM
Jack the Sailor 14 Sep 12 - 12:01 AM
Bobert 14 Sep 12 - 01:17 PM
Jack the Sailor 14 Sep 12 - 02:16 PM
Bobert 14 Sep 12 - 03:31 PM
Sawzaw 15 Sep 12 - 09:35 PM
Bobert 15 Sep 12 - 09:43 PM
Jack the Sailor 15 Sep 12 - 09:59 PM
Sawzaw 15 Sep 12 - 10:10 PM
GUEST 15 Sep 12 - 10:30 PM
Bobert 15 Sep 12 - 10:32 PM
GUEST,Chongo Chimp 15 Sep 12 - 11:58 PM
Jack the Sailor 16 Sep 12 - 12:03 AM
Bobert 16 Sep 12 - 09:56 AM
Sawzaw 16 Sep 12 - 10:00 AM
Bobert 16 Sep 12 - 11:33 AM
Sawzaw 16 Sep 12 - 12:30 PM
Bobert 16 Sep 12 - 12:53 PM
Jack the Sailor 16 Sep 12 - 01:10 PM
Sawzaw 17 Sep 12 - 09:24 AM
Bobert 17 Sep 12 - 09:35 AM
Bobert 17 Sep 12 - 10:16 AM
dick greenhaus 17 Sep 12 - 11:30 AM
Jack the Sailor 17 Sep 12 - 11:38 AM
Bobert 17 Sep 12 - 12:58 PM
GUEST,Chongo Chimp 17 Sep 12 - 01:12 PM
GUEST,nobody in particular 17 Sep 12 - 01:55 PM
Bobert 17 Sep 12 - 05:50 PM
GUEST,Chongo Chimp 17 Sep 12 - 07:03 PM
Jack the Sailor 17 Sep 12 - 07:07 PM
Bobert 17 Sep 12 - 07:21 PM
dick greenhaus 17 Sep 12 - 08:11 PM
Bobert 17 Sep 12 - 08:47 PM
Jack the Sailor 17 Sep 12 - 11:26 PM
Little Hawk 18 Sep 12 - 11:24 AM
dick greenhaus 18 Sep 12 - 01:05 PM
Little Hawk 18 Sep 12 - 01:15 PM
Bobert 18 Sep 12 - 02:54 PM
Jack the Sailor 18 Sep 12 - 04:28 PM
Bobert 18 Sep 12 - 04:44 PM
Sawzaw 19 Sep 12 - 10:56 PM
Little Hawk 19 Sep 12 - 11:30 PM
GUEST,999 20 Sep 12 - 12:20 AM
Bobert 20 Sep 12 - 09:31 AM
Jack the Sailor 20 Sep 12 - 09:52 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 20 Sep 12 - 10:09 AM
Bobert 20 Sep 12 - 11:46 AM
Jack the Sailor 20 Sep 12 - 01:02 PM
Bobert 20 Sep 12 - 01:08 PM
Jack the Sailor 20 Sep 12 - 01:11 PM
Donuel 20 Sep 12 - 05:50 PM
Jack the Sailor 20 Sep 12 - 10:26 PM
Bobert 20 Sep 12 - 10:36 PM
Sawzaw 20 Sep 12 - 10:51 PM
Bobert 20 Sep 12 - 10:56 PM
Donuel 20 Sep 12 - 11:06 PM
Bobert 20 Sep 12 - 11:12 PM
Jack the Sailor 20 Sep 12 - 11:15 PM
Sawzaw 20 Sep 12 - 11:51 PM
Jack the Sailor 21 Sep 12 - 12:12 AM
Sawzaw 21 Sep 12 - 10:05 AM
Bobert 21 Sep 12 - 01:02 PM
Jack the Sailor 21 Sep 12 - 01:58 PM
dick greenhaus 21 Sep 12 - 02:14 PM
Jack the Sailor 21 Sep 12 - 03:20 PM
GUEST,Chongo Chimp 21 Sep 12 - 03:25 PM
Bobert 21 Sep 12 - 04:16 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 22 Sep 12 - 06:27 AM
Bobert 22 Sep 12 - 07:23 AM
Sawzaw 22 Sep 12 - 10:01 AM
GUEST,Chongo Chimp 22 Sep 12 - 11:32 AM
Bobert 22 Sep 12 - 11:41 AM
Jack the Sailor 22 Sep 12 - 12:19 PM
Bobert 22 Sep 12 - 12:35 PM
GUEST,Chongo Chimp 22 Sep 12 - 01:00 PM
Jack the Sailor 22 Sep 12 - 01:36 PM
GUEST,Chongo Chimp 22 Sep 12 - 02:02 PM
Bobert 22 Sep 12 - 03:06 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 22 Sep 12 - 07:02 PM
Bobert 22 Sep 12 - 07:19 PM
Little Hawk 22 Sep 12 - 08:35 PM
Bobert 22 Sep 12 - 08:46 PM
Little Hawk 22 Sep 12 - 08:51 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 23 Sep 12 - 01:04 AM
Bobert 23 Sep 12 - 10:04 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 23 Sep 12 - 11:05 AM
Little Hawk 23 Sep 12 - 01:20 PM
pdq 23 Sep 12 - 01:41 PM
dick greenhaus 23 Sep 12 - 01:43 PM
pdq 23 Sep 12 - 02:00 PM
Bobert 23 Sep 12 - 03:55 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 23 Sep 12 - 05:31 PM
pdq 23 Sep 12 - 06:20 PM
Little Hawk 23 Sep 12 - 06:53 PM
Sawzaw 23 Sep 12 - 09:57 PM
Sawzaw 23 Sep 12 - 10:10 PM
Bobert 23 Sep 12 - 10:11 PM
Little Hawk 23 Sep 12 - 11:36 PM
Sawzaw 23 Sep 12 - 11:47 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 24 Sep 12 - 01:23 AM
Jack the Sailor 24 Sep 12 - 02:59 AM
Bobert 24 Sep 12 - 08:08 AM
Sawzaw 24 Sep 12 - 08:39 AM
Bobert 24 Sep 12 - 08:56 AM
Bobert 24 Sep 12 - 10:30 AM
GUEST,Chongo Chimp 24 Sep 12 - 11:26 AM
GUEST,Jim Knowledge 24 Sep 12 - 11:50 AM
Little Hawk 24 Sep 12 - 12:11 PM
Bobert 24 Sep 12 - 09:36 PM
Little Hawk 24 Sep 12 - 09:53 PM
Bobert 24 Sep 12 - 10:01 PM
Little Hawk 24 Sep 12 - 10:04 PM
Bobert 24 Sep 12 - 10:07 PM
Sawzaw 24 Sep 12 - 11:35 PM
Sawzaw 25 Sep 12 - 12:02 AM
Jack the Sailor 25 Sep 12 - 01:21 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 25 Sep 12 - 01:42 AM
Jack the Sailor 25 Sep 12 - 01:51 AM
Sawzaw 25 Sep 12 - 08:40 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 25 Sep 12 - 11:30 AM
Little Hawk 25 Sep 12 - 12:03 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 26 Sep 12 - 01:01 AM
Jack the Sailor 26 Sep 12 - 01:19 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 26 Sep 12 - 01:30 AM
Sawzaw 26 Sep 12 - 09:29 AM
Jack the Sailor 26 Sep 12 - 09:32 AM
Little Hawk 26 Sep 12 - 11:31 AM
Bobert 26 Sep 12 - 09:10 PM
Sawzaw 27 Sep 12 - 01:28 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 27 Sep 12 - 06:35 AM
Bobert 27 Sep 12 - 09:00 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 27 Sep 12 - 12:47 PM
Bobert 27 Sep 12 - 02:28 PM
Bobert 27 Sep 12 - 04:52 PM
GUEST,Chongo Chimp 27 Sep 12 - 07:10 PM
Bobert 27 Sep 12 - 07:42 PM
GUEST,Chongo Chimp 27 Sep 12 - 07:48 PM
Bobert 27 Sep 12 - 08:04 PM
GUEST,Chongo Chimp 27 Sep 12 - 08:19 PM
Bobert 27 Sep 12 - 08:59 PM
Sawzaw 27 Sep 12 - 09:22 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 28 Sep 12 - 05:17 AM
Bobert 28 Sep 12 - 08:58 AM
Jack the Sailor 28 Sep 12 - 10:57 AM
Little Hawk 28 Sep 12 - 12:11 PM
Bobert 28 Sep 12 - 04:12 PM
Little Hawk 29 Sep 12 - 12:33 AM
GUEST,999 29 Sep 12 - 07:59 AM
Sawzaw 29 Sep 12 - 09:40 AM
Jack the Sailor 29 Sep 12 - 09:51 AM
Bobert 29 Sep 12 - 10:02 AM
Bobert 29 Sep 12 - 10:08 AM
Stringsinger 29 Sep 12 - 10:32 AM
Sawzaw 29 Sep 12 - 10:40 AM
Bobert 29 Sep 12 - 11:19 AM
Jack the Sailor 29 Sep 12 - 11:29 AM
GUEST,Chongo Chimp 29 Sep 12 - 12:29 PM
Jack the Sailor 29 Sep 12 - 02:20 PM
Sawzaw 30 Sep 12 - 09:02 AM
GUEST,Chongo Chimp 30 Sep 12 - 12:24 PM
Don Firth 30 Sep 12 - 04:59 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 30 Sep 12 - 06:07 PM
GUEST,Chongo Chimp 30 Sep 12 - 07:06 PM
Bobert 30 Sep 12 - 08:22 PM
Jack the Sailor 30 Sep 12 - 09:36 PM
Bobert 30 Sep 12 - 09:47 PM
Little Hawk 01 Oct 12 - 03:55 PM
Jack the Sailor 01 Oct 12 - 06:46 PM
Bobert 01 Oct 12 - 07:00 PM
Little Hawk 01 Oct 12 - 07:15 PM
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Subject: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Sawzaw
Date: 13 Jul 12 - 12:04 AM

58 Percent Of Americans Believe Rich Deserve Their Wealth
The Huffington Post

A majority of Americans have a favorable view of wealthy individuals and believe that they deserve their fortunes, according to a new poll.

GlobeScan, a market-research firm, released a 23-country study last week showing that 58 percent of U.S. citizens "strongly agree" or "somewhat agree" that the rich deserve their wealth -- a slight increase from a similar survey in 2008.

The findings come at a time when tax cuts for the rich, Mitt Romney's wealth and Occupy Wall Street have all been hot topics in the 2012 campaign cycle.

Growing economic inequality is a real phenomenon. Last year, for example, a study from the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office showed that income distribution had tilted dramatically towards top earners between 1979 and 2007. Another study showed that the richest one percent has disproportionately benefited during the recovery.

The GlobeScan survey does not necessarily contradict previous polls that show Americans think income inequality is a real problem. Earlier this year, the president of the Pew Research Center wrote a New York Times op-ed that explained, "People [in the U.S.] don't necessarily want to take money from the wealthy; they just want a better chance to get rich themselves."

The United States was one of only six countries surveyed where a majority thought the rich deserved their wealth. It ranked number three, with only Australia and Canada having more favorable views toward the rich. In Greece, just nine percent thought so.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 13 Jul 12 - 12:07 AM

"It ranked number three, with only Australia and Canada having more favorable views toward the rich. In Greece, just nine percent thought so. "

Well Duh!!!

In Canada and Australia the rich pay their taxes. In Greece they don't.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Jul 12 - 12:36 AM

Now why would they believe that?

"If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie".

The US press and TV have much to answer for.

Government by the rich for the rich.

Dumbass.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: meself
Date: 13 Jul 12 - 01:00 AM

Can't help thinking of Shania Twain's response to an interviewer's question about her wealth (she grew up in poverty): "It's not like I DESERVE all this - NOBODY DESERVES to have this kind of money."

And Neil Young, when the old-timer asked him how a young fellow such as he was at the time was able to afford to buy this big ranch in California: "Well - I'm just lucky, I guess."


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 13 Jul 12 - 02:59 AM

I guess it boils down to what you count as 'wealth'....some people do not count it as money at all.
I don't!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Leadfingers
Date: 13 Jul 12 - 03:12 AM

I have no problem with anyone being 'rich' - My problem is 'The Rich' who misuse their wealth , especially the Tax Evaders .


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Elmore
Date: 13 Jul 12 - 11:04 AM

The rich deserve their money, except the smug, condescending (imo) Willard.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,999
Date: 13 Jul 12 - 11:18 AM

Yes, indeed they do deserve their wealth. Thing is, they don't deserve the wealth of the working class and other American people. And there as was said by The Bard, is the rub.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,999
Date: 13 Jul 12 - 11:20 AM

What America cannot afford is rich people.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 13 Jul 12 - 11:44 AM

It not surprising that 58% of Americans believe that the rich deserve their money, because the "American Dream" is that anyone can get rich. What is should be surprising is that only 58% believe it. On most examinations, 58% is a very bad score.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Penny S.
Date: 13 Jul 12 - 11:53 AM

Was this by any chance a telephone survey? Thus biassing results. No-one asked me. (Though I do have a phone.) The report of the study doesn't mention method. Not at the top, anyway.

Penny


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Jul 12 - 12:01 PM

The articles don't say exactly how the survey was done or the wording of the question(s).

'Deserve' is kind of a slippery word in this context. *I* might agree that most wealthy folks 'have their money legally', and still not agree that they earned it. If a dumb kid inherits $50,000,000 legally, does he 'deserve' it? If a system exists that pays CEOs of banks hundreds of millions legally... do they 'deserve' THAT much?

And what is most people's idea of where 'wealthy' starts?

Let ME design the survey, and we'll have some idea of what people really think.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Amos
Date: 13 Jul 12 - 12:03 PM

WHen there is no differentiation between earned wealth, inherited wealth, and Lotto wealth, the results are semantically meaningless, and the question is stupid. Definitions of deserve, rich, and wealth would be a good start.

"Babies born into wealthy families have earned their eventual inheritance by being born in the right place."

"If a dishonest businessman can manage to siphon off several million off the top by falsifying corporate records, he deserves to enjoy that money."

"A man who gets fifty million by buying one winning Lottery ticket has earned his money."

"Luck is just as valid as productive work as a source of value."


I wonder what kind of survey results these nonsensical propositions would get in our hodgepodge society.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Jul 12 - 12:13 PM

The author of this thread misses an important part of the survey...

The 58% included two groupings

1. Strongly deserve

2. Somewhat deserve (meaning somewhat don't deserve)

What were the actual percentages in those two groupings???

Let's say, for instance, that the strongly deserve category is 10% then the headlines could easily read "10% Say the rich deserve their wealth"... Or could read "90% say the rich either don't deserve their wealth or somewhat don't deserve it"...

Bogus polling... Any college Stats instructor would point that out right away...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: MarkS
Date: 13 Jul 12 - 12:28 PM

If any of y'all are rich and feel you do not deserve it, I can ease your guilty conscience. Just send your wealth to me and all will be well.
Mark


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 13 Jul 12 - 12:43 PM

Someone who strikes it rich "deserves" it due to the value of the labor of those in the same field who did not make it?

Who deserves riches is a deep philosophical question. Certainly it is the effort put in by all who try to become wealthy that is the engine of economic growth. That is why we were most prosperous when those who made it were taxed at 90% marginal rates.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 13 Jul 12 - 12:51 PM

You speak in jest, MarkS, but a lot of people seem to spend most of their lives ruthlessly accumulating a fortune only to turn around and start handing it out for "The Betterment of Mankind". Think of all the statues, memorials, all the charity balls, all of the museums and institutes, all of the foundations with well paid officers, that we'd miss if not for their generosity...


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 13 Jul 12 - 01:00 PM

Having responded to a few such "surveys," I can unequivocally state that I have NEVER been allowed to give a CORRECT answer to any question asked, since all such only give you a choice of preselected answers.

I would agree that the rich, for the most part, do deserve to be rewarded.

I would also point out that the poor, who often work harder for less reward, also deserve to be rewarded according to their contribution.

The question has NOTHING to do with the fairness of taxes. It is appropriate that those who receive "reward" too sparse to survive on should pay no taxes.

Those who's rewards are a little better pay a percentage of their rewards to help run the country.

Those who's rewards are even better pay a larger percentage of their rewards.

Those who's rewards are astonishing, pay no more than those at the bottom of the "probably survivable" tax bracket, and in MOST CASES pay much less, or NOTHING.

The survey did not ask how many people believe that the rich deserve special exemptions from paying taxes at least on a par with what the middle class must pay.

John


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 13 Jul 12 - 01:14 PM

John? LH told me to tell you that it's "whose". Whose, whose, whose. Not who's! "Whose" is the possessive. "Who's" is a contraction that means "who is". Look it up. He cares about that sorta thing a lot fer some reason. ;-D Me, I just spell words any damn way I feel like at the time.

*****


Now here's my comment.

Whether a rich person deserves his wealth or not depends on one thing. How he got it.

Gettin' rich by committin' massive bank fraud or other types of phony money manipulation is not a legitimate way of gainin' yer wealth.

Some rich people do deserve their wealth and others don't, so to quote the 58% of the public as sayin' that "the rich deserve their wealth" is basically a meaningless and pretty dumb statement in the first place, because it seems to pretend that all rich people are the same. They are not!

But it makes a handy sound bite, doesn't it? And dumbasses love handy sound bites. They relieve you of the responsibility of actually thinkin' about what yer talkin' about.

- Chongo


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Rapparee
Date: 13 Jul 12 - 01:14 PM

I have only two questions about wealth:

1. Was it earned, and earned honestly?
2. What good is being done with it?


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Jul 12 - 01:22 PM

And then there are those that INHERITED their wealth without having to do jack shit for it - they, of course, should be exempt from having to pay their fair share of taxes on their unearned and undeserved income and wealth, while the poor and the middle class taxpayers get screwed over six ways to sunday..

This may make sense to TeaPublican jackasses, but the logic somehow escapes me.

We're headed back in a bucket to the days of Henry Clay Frick, J.P. Morgan, and John D. Rockefeller, Sr. & ain't got much further to go.

Maybe its some sort of a "living history" kinda thing in these days of marketing "heritage" to get big bucks.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 13 Jul 12 - 01:48 PM

Depends on whether or not you agree with the premise, that.... Socialism is the politics of envy!


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bert
Date: 13 Jul 12 - 01:57 PM

One thing we know is exactly how much wealth a person can attain by earning it. All of us who earn our living with honest toil know that.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 13 Jul 12 - 02:17 PM

Do Tom Cruise or Paul McCartney deserve their wealth?


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,999
Date: 13 Jul 12 - 02:32 PM

Well, there's a more important question at this juncture: Does Romney deserve his wealth? To me, $230 million is a chunk of change. Personally, I think he is insolvent and needs the election to re-establish his reputation, whatever that is.

SUPPORT ROMNEY. BANK OUTSIDE THE USA.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Charley Noble
Date: 13 Jul 12 - 02:49 PM

Put it on the ground,
Spread it all around,
Dig it with a hoe,
It will make your flowers grow!

Cheerily,
Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Stringsinger
Date: 13 Jul 12 - 03:07 PM

There is an American myth that anyone can become wealthy here just by hard work and enterprise. This is what sold Playboy magazines, the aspirations to "make it".

I don't trust this poll by the HP. I think there are a whole lot of 99 percenters
who don't think the rich deserve what they are getting while giving the poor the shaft.
Being American means that everyone pays their fair share of responsibility regardless of their incomes. The CEO's who are sitting on their capital are basically unAmerican, transferring jobs out of the country and not support our institutions. These "rich"
divide our country and buy off the law enforcement agencies who violate our Constitution and try to scare us by supporting nonsense such as the defense authorization act and the patriot act. Those who put that through congress are anything but authentic patriots. They can't be allowed to buy off our government.

We need to regulate them in the tradition of both Roosevelts. We are the government and those reps are our servants, not our masters.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 13 Jul 12 - 03:15 PM

That wanker Bob Diamond turned down a bonus of, wait for it. 20 million quid, how can any one person be worth that ?

The thing that they all have in common is unbounded greed, how much money do they want ? all of it ?

And if you believe that survey you are seriously fucked up.

Dave H


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,999
Date: 13 Jul 12 - 04:48 PM

Two kinds of criminals these days: Those who have a million and those who want a million.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bert
Date: 13 Jul 12 - 04:50 PM

They certainly deserve to pay their taxes on their wealth.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Jul 12 - 06:11 PM

What I can never understand is why anybody would want to have more money than they can spend.

Over a certain level, which is way short of the kind of money these fat cats get hold of, it can't be about the money as such - it surely must be about some kind of personality hangup, in which their own sense of some quality that matters to them is dependent on the amount of money they can get hold of. Akin to other addictions such as that of an alcoholic or a junkie. Destructive for the individuals trapped in it, and if anything a lot more damaging to soiety.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 13 Jul 12 - 07:05 PM

Amos: ""Babies born into wealthy families have earned their eventual inheritance by being born in the right place."


".....being born in the right place.".....Right???.........I find that very interesting that you would consider that 'Right!'......interesting.

Think about it.

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Jul 12 - 07:41 PM

Splitting hairs, GfinS... Boring night, heh???

BTW, when you delve into Saws Globe Scan folks what you find is that of those 58%, if the US is somewhat typical of other nations, that only 15% "strongly deserve"... So between the strongly against, somewhat against and fors, reality is that 85% aren't all that wild about the rich deserving their wealth...

But, hey, if it makes Saws happy then why would a reasonable and alternate analysis of the data ruin his day...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Rapparee
Date: 13 Jul 12 - 08:57 PM

IF someone (Bill Gates is an example) earns their money (and he did -- IBM screwed themselves) and then turns that money to helping others (which Gates has done) then I have no objections.

Yes, you can make money by knowing how to "work" money, such as what Warren Buffet has done. Once again, he has committed himself and his money to helping others.

I attended a talk by Bill Gates' father once. Bill Gates Sr. (the Microsoft founder is William H. Gates III) told of the founding of the Gates Foundation. Seems like Bill 3 decided that you can only use a certain amount of money and after that it's all superfluous...so he founded the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation to use his money to help others; Buffet has made substantial contribution to the Gates Foundation.

Sounds reasonable to me. If you can pay your bills and have enough money to left to live on why not help others?


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Jul 12 - 09:15 PM

90% of the current rich were born rich...

If you wanted to be rich you should have picked rich parents...

Your bad...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Rapparee
Date: 13 Jul 12 - 09:20 PM

Historically, the first generation makes the wealth, the second generation keeps what they have, and the third generation squanders it.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Sawzaw
Date: 13 Jul 12 - 09:32 PM

Is there anybody here that would not like to be rich?

How did the other 10% get rich?


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Jul 12 - 09:36 PM

Most of the 10% became rich by meeting rich people who liked them and let them into the club...

Very few did it on hard work... Very few...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,999
Date: 13 Jul 12 - 09:43 PM

Rich? No, not really. I dreamed about hitting a 50 million lottery a few months back. Other than the good I thought I could do with the money, I figured I'd be broke by now anyway. And I am.

No one deserves wealth, because wealth means someone else's kid goes hungry. To think otherwise is to be a bullshitter. The rich do NOT deserve their wealth, because to keep that wealth they allow others to go without. IMO.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Rapparee
Date: 13 Jul 12 - 10:05 PM

No, I would not like to be rich. I just want enough to get by and to help others.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jul 12 - 10:09 PM

"No, I would not like to be rich. I just want enough to get by and to help others."

That says it, Rap. All of it. And that is real wealth.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,999
Date: 13 Jul 12 - 10:32 PM

13 Jul 12 - 10:09 PM

That post was me.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 13 Jul 12 - 11:37 PM

Cool to know people who know what wealth really is!!! Bruce, Rap....

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 14 Jul 12 - 02:37 AM

I totally agree with Rapparee, that having enough to get by is sufficient. But I'd go one further. I honestly believe that great wealth and valuable possessions would be a burden I'd not want. With all that comes security problems, bodyguards, fear of robbery, theft or even kidnap. Insurance, maintenance of houses, cars, 'staff', organising an 'empire', managing vast accounts, all sorts of stuff which I would hate. I adore my simple little life. I have modest means, not too much of anything, a life which is very easy to run and maintain. And I try to help my African in-laws in their poverty as best I can. I doubt whether any extremely rich person is as happy as me!


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Jul 12 - 02:58 AM

"No one deserves wealth, because wealth means someone else's kid goes hungry." Not necessarily.

A study by (AFAIR) an Australian economics prof. into why capitalism finds favour in some countries and communism in others, found that essentially, capitalist countries were the ones rich in resources. Everyone benefitted when the resources were developed, and the developers got rich. OTOH communism was more at home where resources were scarce and the only way to get rich was at others' expense.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Jack Campin
Date: 14 Jul 12 - 09:03 AM

I'm sure the people of Ternate would have been delighted to hear that.

Capitalism has been making Ternates continuously for the last 500 years. The biggest ones being North and South America. (I guess that Australian racist professor doesn't count Aboriginals as part of "everyone" because he or she can't see them as human).


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Arkie
Date: 14 Jul 12 - 09:52 AM

The Scriptures of the Judeo-Christian community view having great wealth as a responsibility not a privilege. This is not a criticism of other 'belief systems' but an observation of a something with which I am more familiar.

What the poll indicates to me is that 58 per cent of the responders expressed their opinions and that those opinions are based upon something other than reason and common sense. There are those who believe that some are born to rule and some are born to serve. While I do not personally know anyone at the top levels of personal wealth I do know some people in my community that have more wealth than others and of those I do know I would say they have earned what they have. Some have inherited their wealth and some married into it, and of most of the ones I know they have managed their wealth in a responsible manner. Some others fit well into the slum lord category. Those who can avoid them but choose otherwise deserve what they get. Unfortunately, some do not have any real choices.

As for exorbitant wealth, the top 5 per cent or whatever, I cannot imagine anyone deserving that much money. It seems that much of that money is earned at the expense of someone else through manipulation, exploitation, etc. Possibly an investment in a congress person or two. It is a bit interesting that the wealthy Democrats listed above have consistently used some of their wealth quite positively.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Charley Noble
Date: 14 Jul 12 - 10:09 AM

For the men who own the industries I'm shedding bitter tears
They haven't made a single dime in over thirty years
In over thirty years, my boys, in over thirty years
Not one thin dime in all that time, in over thirty years!

Cheerily,
Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 14 Jul 12 - 11:09 AM

"Wealth" is really property of one kind or another, and whether anyone thinks you "deserve" it or not, if you can't manage it and protect it, you lose it. Even if you control the means of production, if you don't know how to manage it, everyone is screwed.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: number 6
Date: 14 Jul 12 - 11:39 AM

We should not tolerate the rich anymore .... I say OFF with their capitalist greedy heads !!!

biLL ... who really does not give a rat's ass about the wealthy but is more concerned about humanity ... and by that I mean all of humanity rich or poor. Prejudice, intolerance, human injustice and greed is not just a malady that has infected the wealthy.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,999
Date: 14 Jul 12 - 12:57 PM

True, Bill, but it's easier on wealthy people. If I gotta be broke on a $20 or a $20,000,000, I figure the higher figure is easier to do it with.

Besides, money isn't even the ultimate payment: time is.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Jul 12 - 01:07 PM

Does Donald Trump deserve his hair?


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,999
Date: 14 Jul 12 - 01:20 PM

Why did Harper jump into my mind ?


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 14 Jul 12 - 01:34 PM

Little Hawk,
Laughing my ass off, and everybody else's, here, asses off, at that one, and as soon as I get up off the floor, I'll thank you...THANK YOU!!!!

Still giggling too much to type right!!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 14 Jul 12 - 01:45 PM

Hell ya they do .. it takes a lot of work to figure out how to steal the retirement money from the middle class .. you think that happens without effort there bud?


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 14 Jul 12 - 02:28 PM

Eat the rich

Dave H


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Jul 12 - 02:54 PM

I'd sooner see it as freeing the rich. Stripping them of their wealth would just be a kind of tough love...


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Jul 12 - 03:11 PM

It's really less about rich folks/poor folks and in-betweens but...

...about how the government hqas been used over the last 30 years to bust unions and un-level the playing field toward the rich... We never heard about income inequity in the 50s or 60s or the 70s... But then Ronald Reagan thought it would be peachy to use the full force of the United Staes government to bust the Air Traffic Controllers Union and that was like waving the green flag to corporate America that union busting season was open for business...

Since then the percentage of folks in unions has dropped from 30% to less than 10% and the wages for the working class has stagnated while management's have increased 300%...

That's what this is all about and the there are two obvious remedies:

1. Stop busting o unions and...

2. Tax the rich at at the very least the rates of the 90s...

That should correct some of the problems and would be a good first step...

BTW, before anyone SCREAMS about how much of the "income" taxes the rich pay consider these two facts:

1. 1/2 of the country now lives at 125% of poverty or less and...

2. These people pay the highest percentage of their incomes on regressive sales taxes, gas taxes, tolls, user fees, licensing fees, fees, fees and more fees...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Jul 12 - 08:10 PM

Ain't it strange that I have debunked Saws Holy Grail survey of 58% with the 58th post to this thread???

Proof that I am, indeed, correct...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 14 Jul 12 - 09:27 PM

If being 'rich' is so bad, why does so many people want to be 'rich'?
How come musicians want to sell so many of their recordings?
How come people say 'rich' like it's a dirty word, instead of saying 'prosperous'?
Personally i don't care if a person is prosperous or not....that is NOT how you should be judging people..it's more of a bi-product of class warfare.
I will not participate..I'm too 'rich in Spirit' to promote hate, fear and loathing, based on how much money a person has...or not has....it's stupid. Base the qualities of a person, on their qualities, not because they have something you want, you don't have it, and you resent it!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,999
Date: 14 Jul 12 - 10:20 PM

In his novel, Time Enough for Love, Heinlein's main character wound up being the banker on a new planet. Someone asked him where he kept the money. He said he didn't keep the money. He made note of who deposited and withdrew what and burned the rest because if he kept it around as money he'd have to keep counting it and he thought that was a waste of time.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 14 Jul 12 - 10:56 PM

The median salary for Federally employed air traffic controllers right now is $109k per year--they start around $63k, top out around $150k. They get between 13 and 26 days of vacation a year and get health and life insurance. I am a little slow, so I'd appreciate it if someone could explain where "income equality" figures in there?

The fact of the matter is that unskilled workers who work for poverty wages haven't really received much help from mainstream unions who seem more concerned with preserving and extending their own entitlements that the whole "in unity there is strength" thing.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 15 Jul 12 - 12:32 AM

Guess,999, I had a copy of the sayings of 'Lazarus Long' by Robert Heinlein. Lazarus Long, was the reappearing character in a lot of Heinlein's books. Are you familiar with the book?...If not, check it out..I often quote him!

...and did you ever come up with any thoughts, regards those two posts, in the 'delusion' thread?..I'm just curious as to your take on it. I know it's not what certain people want to confront..but, as far as I see it, it is the truth, about ourselves, and deluding ourselves into thinking that the solutions lay outside us, rather than inside us!...and the truth that is without, and through and through, would unite with us...........and kick ass!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Kampervan
Date: 15 Jul 12 - 12:45 AM

Now I know that semantics can get a bit boring, but who is defining 'rich'.
A lot of contributors to this thread are talking disparagingly about rich people and I guess that most of them are not including themselves in that definition.

But I suspect that for most of the world's population, £20,000 a year represents untold wealth and they would include anyone with that sort of money in this discusion.

I doubt if most people in the U.K. on that salary would think of themselves as rich.

So should it be a multiple of the average wage or is it absolute figure?

K/van


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Jul 12 - 01:55 AM

Bottom line here???

1/2 of Americans live at $26,000 for a family of four or less per year...

That is insane...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 15 Jul 12 - 02:11 AM

No one here dislikes the rich. They just want them to pay their share of taxes. You know, the way they do in the UK.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 15 Jul 12 - 03:13 AM

Would you like to provide a source for that, Bobert? According to the U.S. census bureau, as of January 2012 the median family income was $50,020," median income" meaning half are above that, half below it. Way more than you want to know about household income trends


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 15 Jul 12 - 03:15 AM

Sorry. I'll try again:

Way more than you want to know about household income trends


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: bobad
Date: 15 Jul 12 - 08:04 AM

"Everybody knows that the dice are loaded
Everybody rolls with their fingers crossed
Everybody knows that the war is over
Everybody knows the good guys lost
Everybody knows the fight was fixed
The poor stay poor, the rich get rich
That's how it goes"

Words of wisdom from Lennie


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,999
Date: 15 Jul 12 - 09:16 AM

Disraeli, 1845

'There are "two nations; between whom there is no intercourse and no sympathy; who are as ignorant of each other's habits, thoughts, and feelings, as if they were dwellers in different zones, or inhabitants of different planets; who are formed by a different breeding, are fed by a different food, are ordered by different manners, and are not governed by the same laws…THE RICH AND THE POOR."'


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Jul 12 - 09:42 AM

C'mon now, Bruce- dontcha remember? Ed Meese explained that there are no poor or homeless people in the U. S. of A.

Ya gotta get with the delusion, man.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,999
Date: 15 Jul 12 - 09:49 AM

I'm working at it real hard, Greg. I must be missing a piece of the puzzle. I followed how Martha Mitchell lived on a welfare payment for a whole month. No accounting for anything trivial like rent, bills, etc. She didn't see what the problem was.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Jul 12 - 12:33 PM

I came this useful extension to my vocabulary in this book review today (The Price of Inequality by Joseph Stiglitz):

"The ancient Greeks had a word for it – pleonexia – which means an overreaching desire for more than one's share... The Greeks saw tyrants as fundamentally pleonetic in their motivation."
....................

Now I'll try using it.

If being 'rich' is so bad, why does so many people want to be 'rich'?

Why on earth should there be any connection between those two things? It makes as much sense as "If racism is so bad why are so many people racists".

If you want to defend pleonexia (or racism) it has to be done on other grounds than prevalence or popularity.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Jul 12 - 12:39 PM

Stim,

The source: Charlotte Observer, September 2011... They did a nice piece on income/poverty in their Sunday edition... You can get in touch with them and perhaps get a copy...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Jul 12 - 12:42 PM

BTW, Stim, household income is a verses just looking at the lower 50% is like comparing apples and oranges...

Bob makes $100,000
Bill makes $0
Bob & Bill's average income is $50,000

Stats 101...

B;~)


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Jul 12 - 01:06 PM

The term "average" is very confusig,and should always be avoided in these kind of discussions, because it means three very different things - the mean, the median and the mode (or middle).

This article explains the difference between them - "Mean, Median and Mode of Impoverishment: Why to occupy Wall Street"


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: pdq
Date: 15 Jul 12 - 01:09 PM

"According to the U.S. census bureau, as of January 2012 the median family income was $50,020"

Not average but median.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 15 Jul 12 - 01:17 PM

Stim: "Would you like to provide a source for that, Bobert? According to the U.S. census bureau, as of January 2012 the median family income was $50,020," median income" meaning half are above that, half below it. Way more than you want to know about household income trends".

In other words, WE are the upper 5% of the world's wealthiest!!!...and the spoiled brats, still hate themselves, and everybody around them that won't give them more!!!!!

The American PEOPLE are on the most part, caring people, if they KNOW the truth, and know of others in need....and they are also vulnerable to being easily deceived, by listening to those, who proclaim false needs to throw money at, for the deceivers ultimate goal, and that is to profit from it.

STOP TOLERATING THE CORRUPTION< even when it comes from your own 'so-called' party!!!!!!!!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Jul 12 - 02:19 PM

Once again, people, read for comprehension this time:

Median income for all is not the same as medium income for the bottom half!!!

What is it that ya'll don't understand about this rather elementary statistical fact???

Example:

Bob earns $100,000
Bill earns $0
Median income = $50,000

Question: Does this mean that Bill's income is $50,000???

Answer: No, it doesn't...

The point is that when we look exclusively at the bottom half of the population the median income is a little over $26,000 a year for a family of four... With the official poverty threshold of $22,400 for a family of four that makes the bottom half of the population living at or below 125% of the official poverty threshold...

(Note: Anyone who still doesn't get this needs to enroll in a basic Stats course at your local community college... You don't even need to take the 201 level... Just take 001 remedial bonehead course... I think it's cheaper but you don't get any credit hours...)

I know, whatz credit hours???

Sheesh...

B;~)


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 15 Jul 12 - 02:39 PM

It's true that we are obscenely rich compared to the truly poor on other continents. Globally speaking, anyone who eats once a day is extremely lucky. It makes me smile to see articles about 'below the poverty line' here in UK. Nobody is poor here. And sadly, the terrible poverty I've seen in Africa is the result of greedy rich people, corrupt to the bone, who feed off the poor like vampires. They certainly do NOT deserve their wealth. I've seen at the roadside (in central Dakar, Senegal) two babies lying on a mat beside their mother, all three emaciated and obviously dying, while wealthy Senegalese businessmen covered in bling drive past in chauffeur-driven limos, apparently blind to their predicament. That happens all the time in many African countries. Wealth should be shared to 'help the poor struggler'. (And don't say those African businessmen aren't corrupt, because they all are. That's how they got rich.)It haunts me, it really does.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Jul 12 - 02:54 PM

"below the poverty line' here in UK. Nobody is poor here."

Bullshit. Ditto for those that claim the same for the U.S.

Get in line behind


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Jul 12 - 02:58 PM

"It makes me smile to see articles about 'below the poverty line' here in UK. Nobody is poor here."

I'm reminded of what Bob Dylan once wrote:

"A South politician preaches to the poor white man
"You got more than the blacks, don't complain."


Total destitution is, thank God, relatively rare in the UK these days (It wasn't always so, even within living memory.) Poverty, in which families are effectively excluded from society and from any real hope of changing their situation for the better, is sadly not uncommon.

And it's getting worse, not better. And the forces which are making it it worse are the same as the forces that help ensure total destitution in other parts of the world.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Charley Noble
Date: 15 Jul 12 - 03:35 PM

The men who own the industries, they own no bonds and stocks
They own no yachts and limousines, or gems the size of rocks.
They own no big estates with pools, or silken B.V.D.'s,
Because they pay the working man such fancy salaries.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Jul 12 - 04:07 PM

I am not sure if the comments were addressed to me or not, but I know the difference between mean, median, and mode. I was specifically taking issue with Bobert's statement that the median household income is $26k, and providing a link to data from the Feds, who feel that the median household income is around $50k.

For those who need it stated more clearly: Bobert says "1/2 of Americans live at $26,000 for a family of four or less per year..." but if the median income for an American household is $50,020, that would not be likely to be true.

Being at heart kind of a wonk, not only have I read that report (link above), I've also found lots of other info on the distribution of income(not statistical derivatives, actual quantitative data) and I've been through all the articles on income for the last two years in the Charlotte Observer--not only don' the writers quote Bobert's number, they repeatedly use the same info I've quoted and linked to above.

Please note that I don't necessarily agree in principle with Bobert, I am just saying that his facts are not very useful in proving his point.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 15 Jul 12 - 04:23 PM

We're clearly not in agreement here about what constitutes 'poverty'. But utter destitution? Not in UK. However, I try to see the world as a whole. If one has travelled a little, it becomes obvious that one person's idea of poor is another's idea of wonderfully well-off and fortunate. There is also (not mentioned so far) poverty of spirit and lack of hope. I do see that there's much of that in our society.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: pdq
Date: 15 Jul 12 - 04:34 PM

Note that Bobert uses the word "median" in one post, and when called on it, substitutes the word "average" as he repeats the same sentence.

BTW, finding a meaningful "mean" from two numbers is a stretch under any circumstances.

.......................................................................................................................

Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert - PM
Date: 15 Jul 12 - 12:42 PM

BTW, Stim, household income is a verses just looking at the lower 50% is like comparing apples and oranges...

Bob makes $100,000
Bill makes $0
Bob & Bill's average income is $50,000

Stats 101...

B;~)

......................................................................................................................

Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: pdq - PM
Date: 15 Jul 12 - 01:09 PM

"According to the U.S. census bureau, as of January 2012 the median family income was $50,020"

Not average but median.

......................................................................................................................

Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert - PM
Date: 15 Jul 12 - 02:19 PM

Once again, people, read for comprehension this time:

Median income for all is not the same as medium income for the bottom half!!!

What is it that ya'll don't understand about this rather elementary statistical fact???

Example:

Bob earns $100,000
Bill earns $0
Median income = $50,000

Question: Does this mean that Bill's income is $50,000???

Answer: No, it doesn't...

The point is that when we look exclusively at the bottom half of the population the median income is a little over $26,000 a year for a family of four... With the official poverty threshold of $22,400 for a family of four that makes the bottom half of the population living at or below 125% of the official poverty threshold...

(Note: Anyone who still doesn't get this needs to enroll in a basic Stats course at your local community college... You don't even need to take the 201 level... Just take 001 remedial bonehead course... I think it's cheaper but you don't get any credit hours...)

I know, whatz credit hours???

Sheesh...

B;~)


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,999
Date: 15 Jul 12 - 05:09 PM

Depends on the mode yer in . . .


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Jul 12 - 05:28 PM

Some folks, as smart as they proclaim themselves to be, still don't get it???

Here's what ya'll do... Reread what I have actua0lly stated on this thread for comprehension and not gloss over the points I have made and start formulating a rebuttal until ***after*** ya'll have read ***every*** point I have made...

I mean, if ya'll just want to debate an entirely different stat, fine... Just don't go think you've won anything if you have to ignore the stat that I am using that was printed in the "Charlotte Observer"...

Hint: Think of America as two entirely different population sets... The first set is composed of the top 50% in income... Forget them... They are not part of the stat... They don't exist except to bring national stats up... Like I said, for get them... Look at everyone left... That set contains the folks whose income falls in the bottom half...

Sheesh... What a bunch of mental midgets... Hey, I ain't Menza stuff but basic stats ain't rocket surgery here...

B;~)


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: pdq
Date: 15 Jul 12 - 05:46 PM

"...basic stats ain't rocket surgery here..." ~ B-pert

Sounds like dangerous work!


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 15 Jul 12 - 05:52 PM

I hope this settles a rather pointless argument.

The graph shows about 30-35% of households at about $26,000 or less. Are 1/2 of Americans living in these households, probably not. Are the homeless counted as in a household? The few million in prisons? Long term care facilities?

Boberts numbers seem likes a stretch, but that does not detract from Bobert's point 30% or 50% of the population living in relative poverty is not a good thing.

I say relative poverty because that is what counts in terms of the survey posted by Sawz. But Eliza and others raise an interesting point. If anyone answering the survey was below the national poverty line of their country they might think "Compared to an orphan living off a trash heap in Dehli I am rich! Do I deserve my riches? Of course I do! I will answer Yes!"


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 15 Jul 12 - 05:57 PM

Or they just might think "Compared to an orphan in Delhi I am rich! Therefore I will try to do something to reduce the suffering by donating/volunteering/fundraising etc and in my own small way redress the balance a little!"


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Jul 12 - 06:18 PM

They might indeed, and often enough they do. As the saying goes "it's the poor as helps the poor".

And it's the poor as helps the rich as well, but that's more a question of taking than giving...


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 15 Jul 12 - 06:19 PM

Yes they might think that. But that would be off topic. which is..

58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth

If you mean to make this point " I will try to do something to reduce the suffering by donating/volunteering/fundraising etc and in my own small way redress the balance a little!"

Then maybe the best place to make it is not on a thread on US politics where the original poster is trying to make the very dubious point that the rich supporters of the Tea Party have the support of 58% of the population in their quest not to be saddled with a horrible vicious 39% TOP marginal tax rate. Which even though it applies to about 2% of us is both an attach on everyone's person freedoms and too trivial to make a difference.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 15 Jul 12 - 06:19 PM

attack


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: bobad
Date: 15 Jul 12 - 07:13 PM

My wife and I have been living on less than $26,000.00 for the past 22 years - we don't consider ouselves poor but our lifestyle is based on self sufficiency as much as possible.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Jul 12 - 08:32 PM

Well, I have now debunked the 58% and...

...taken the discussion to a new level about poverty in America...

Tough beans, righties...

Reality is what it is...

Mythology and bogus stats aren't...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 15 Jul 12 - 09:32 PM

Actually, Jack, it looks more like about 19% of the households fall in that area. I don't see why this discussion is pointless, because we're trying to figure out how many people are suffering. I may be a bit naive, but I happen to think that is a useful endeavor.

I want to point something out, though, and that is that the census bureau says that, while the median household income is $50k, the median family income is $61k. What the difference is, I don't know, but I know this: the higher the median, the higher the cost of living, and the harder it is for those in the bottom 20% or so.

I happen to live in the state with the highest median family income in the country, and I can tell you for a fact that there are a lot of households with incomes in the $80-90-100k ranges that are just barely getting by-


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 15 Jul 12 - 10:14 PM

"because we're trying to figure out how many people are suffering. I may be a bit naive, but I happen to think that is a useful endeavor."

Oh I thought that people were arguing with Bobert about the meaning of terms in statistics and trying to "catch him in a lie". Which IMHO is a pretty trivial endeavor.

Maybe it is 19% , the way I read the graph there is no way in can be under 25%, unless all of the people in the 25,000 and up category make more than the figure Bobert quoted. Was it 26,125? But I will admit it is probably 30% or less.

So again, 20%, 25%, 30% or 50% in poverty is still not a good thing.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Jul 12 - 10:22 PM

Yo GUEST, Stim...

You apparently haven't followed up with the source I provided you... Your 19% is bogus...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Jul 12 - 10:22 PM

...and 100!!!

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 15 Jul 12 - 10:35 PM

"the median household income is $50k, the median family income is $61k."

If one person is in a household do they count him or her as a family?

Probably not.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Jul 12 - 10:52 PM

Doesn't much matter, Jack...

If we are looking at the bottom half of income earners then $50K would be like hitting the lottery...

Again: When we look exclusively at the bottom 50% we find that most of them fall into that 125% of poverty or less... Only those at the very top of the bottom half might be slightly out of that 125%...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,999
Date: 16 Jul 12 - 02:05 AM

Poverty Tracker.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 16 Jul 12 - 02:27 AM

Here we are, talking about 'wealth' and 'riches'..and all you can think about is MONEY!!...No wonder we're poor!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 16 Jul 12 - 02:53 AM

Nice link Bruce. Thanks


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Penny S.
Date: 16 Jul 12 - 04:05 AM

This map shows where people are in poverty in the UK. Maybe only temporary - the foodbank sites show that it's often change in benefits that leaves people with no income and empty cupboards.

Foodbank map

Penny


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 16 Jul 12 - 04:17 AM

I'm very sorry Jack the Sailor, to have unwittingly intruded on a thread intended only for comments about financial matters in the US. Please therefore ignore my postings, and I withdraw from the discussion. Kindest regards, Eliza.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 16 Jul 12 - 09:39 AM

Bogus? Sorry, Bobert, that number came from the chart that JtS posted a link to. And it is in the ballpark with the link that Bruce posted. As to your source, I went to the Charlotte Observer on line(which you could have done, and should have done) and dug out and read all the articles about income and poverty that I could find back to Sept 2011, and I could find nothing like what you claimed was there. Not only that, in the articles I read, they tended to cite the $50k number. So...

Anyway, I am sorry Eliza got chased off, because she tried to focus on the larger issue--which has to do with the fact that most of the world's resources go to benefit the "First Worlders" half of whom Bobert seems to think are dangerously impoverished.

Anyway, JtS, I don't know how the census bureau differentiates between "household" and "family" , and I can't look into it today. I've looked at more detailed breakout of the census low income numbers though, and I noticed the curious fact that many of those low income households have no wage earner and average less than one member. It makes me think that the numbers are based on income tax records. That may mean that many of the "poor" households are poor because they don't have much taxable income-keep in mind that annuities and pensions may be only partially taxed, so the part that shows up on income tax records is only part of a larger income.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Jul 12 - 10:16 AM

That chart is accurate... Just different stats... That chart includes *all* incomes...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 16 Jul 12 - 10:47 AM

Stim, That is a larger issue. But it has nothing to do with the poll in question.

Bobert. I'm losing you. Are you saying that half of the people in the whole country are below 1.25% of the poverty line or half of the people in the lower 50% of incomes?


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 16 Jul 12 - 11:49 AM

Gosh..ever heard this before??????

Check any number of posts by myself, Little Hawk, pdq, 999, akenaton, Songwronger, number 6, and a few others, that I can't recall off the top of my head.....

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 16 Jul 12 - 12:29 PM

If we use the premise that we are all created equal then we should share equally in the bounties of this world. However in this world many cats become fat eating someone else's share of the pie. The cat of course will say that he deserves to become fat at the cost of others, because he has bigger teeth and sharper claws!


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Charley Noble
Date: 16 Jul 12 - 12:34 PM

It's fun to work on holidays, or when the day is done;
Why should they pay us overtime for having so much fun?
For having so much fun my boys, for having so much fun --
Pay overtime would be a crime for having so much fun.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,999
Date: 16 Jul 12 - 12:52 PM

Part of the problem with poverty figures is that exactly how poverty is measured is based on I think a 50-year-old formula in the USA.

Google

Poverty - World Bank

The complexity of the measurement itself is difficult.

#####################################

As to the thread title, deserve implies they actually did something to become wealthy. However, once a family or extended family has more than enough for its needs, what real good is the rest? Stop playboys and playgirls from manipulating stock markets and fewer people will be driven into poverty. Force the SEC to do its job. Force the FBI to get the lead out and do their jobs. Seems like lotsa rich folks get away with bad shit and nothing happens to them. Be rich and get caught with cocaine and ya get weekend community service. Be poor and get caught with a half-ounce of weed and yer busted.

No country can afford to have rich people when there are poor people in that country.

(As for the wise-ass who's about to say "If the guy's so poor what's he doing with a half oz of weed", his friend from the middle class gave it to him for his birthday.)

############################################

Look at prison populations and their demographic makeup. Find me some rich people in there. Hell, find me some of the 1% in there. I'd love to read about it.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 16 Jul 12 - 12:53 PM

...another re-occurring theme!!!!!!

Think and enjoy....I would think!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jul 12 - 12:57 PM

"On January 1, 2008 more than 1 in 100 adults in the United States were in prison or jail.[13][14]
In 2008 approximately one in every 31 adults (7.3 million) in the United States was behind bars, or being monitored (probation and parole). In 2008 the breakdown for adults under correctional control was as follows: one out of 18 men, one in 89 women, one in 11 African-Americans (9.2 percent), one in 27 Latinos (3.7 percent), and one in 45 Caucasians (2.2 percent). Crime rates have declined by about 25 percent from 1988-2008.[15] 70% of prisoners in the United States are non-whites.[16] In recent decades the U.S. has experienced a surge in its prison population, quadrupling since 1980, partially as a result of mandatory sentencing that came about during the "war on drugs." Violent crime and property crime have declined since the early 1990s.[17]"

from

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_in_the_United_States


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,999
Date: 16 Jul 12 - 12:58 PM

That was me.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 16 Jul 12 - 02:09 PM

So what have we concluded so far?

That the OP title is fairly meaningless because "rich" is a once a relative, loaded and somewhat meaningless term and we don't know exactly what the question the survey asked was?

That a high number of Americans (19-50%) are at 125% of the poverty line or less?

That there are people in the world poorer than the poorest American?

Anything else?


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Jul 12 - 02:17 PM

No, Jack...

For the last time, we are using stats for the bottom 50% of wage earners... Forget the top half... They don't count... Their income isn't reflected in the median income... Just the bottom half of earned income divided by the number of people in the bottom half comes out to, according to the "Charlotte Observer" a little over $26,000 a year per family of four in the bottom half...

That $26,000 is actually less than the 125% of poverty but given that you have some folks who make a little more and other less that the 125% is a fairly accurate number for 1/2 of American households...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 16 Jul 12 - 02:38 PM

"For the last time, we are using stats for the bottom 50% of wage earners... Forget the top half... They don't count."

That seems to me to be a confusing way to put it. But I don't work as an editor for the Charlotte Observer. So who am I to say?

Lets get back to the topic.

So you are saying that half (50%) of half (50%) which equals about one quarter (25%) of "wage earners" are below the poverty line?

That kind of clears up the confusion for me. It is also in accord with the government statistics some of us had posted.

So we all agree that....

A high number of Americans (19-25%) are at 125% of the poverty line or less?


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Jul 12 - 02:41 PM

Nope, not 1/2 of 1/2 but 1/2 of whole population which means 1/2 the entire population...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 16 Jul 12 - 02:44 PM

Jack the Sailor: "So what have we concluded so far?"


Well, taking a look at Bobert's post...apparently NOTHING!

BTW, Bobert, I got your CD..just got in,..haven't listened yet..I'll sound you, after I do.

Regards..You hopeless Party guy!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 16 Jul 12 - 03:50 PM

"Nope, not 1/2 of 1/2 but 1/2 of whole population which means 1/2 the entire population."

Show me where I am wrong.

"For the last time, we are using stats for the bottom 50% of wage earners... Forget the top half... They don't count."

The top half is half.
The bottom half is the other half.

Half of the bottom half is a quarter?


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 16 Jul 12 - 03:52 PM

Are you figuring it out, still..out loud??

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 16 Jul 12 - 04:11 PM

"Out loud?"

It is text on a computer screen.

What is wrong with you? LOL!!


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Jul 12 - 04:15 PM

I give up, Jack...

B;~)


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 16 Jul 12 - 04:38 PM

NPR article. From today. 1/2 of households make 50 k or more.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Wesley S
Date: 16 Jul 12 - 04:48 PM

Ry Cooders' - "No Banker Left Behind"


My telephone rang one evening, my buddy called for me

Said the bankers are all leavin', you better come round and see

It started revelation, they robbed the nation blind,

They're all down at the station, no banker left behind.

No banker, no banker, no banker could I find.

They were all down at the station, no banker left behind
Well the bankers called a meetin', to the whitehouse they went one day
They was going to call one the president, in a quiet and a sociable way
The afternoon was sunny and the weather it was fine
They counted all our money and no banker was left behind
No banker, no banker, no banker could I find.

They were all down at the white house, no banker was left behind
Well I hear the whistle blowin, it plays a happy tune
The conductor is calling "all abort", we'll be leavin soon
With champagne and shrimp cocktails and that's not all you'll find
There's a billion dollar bonus and no banker left behind
No banker, no banker, no banker could I find.

When the train pulled out next mornin', no banker was left behind
No banker, no banker, no banker could I find.
When the train pulled out next mornin', no banker was left behind
No banker, no banker, no banker could I find.
They were all down at the station, no banker left behind
No banker, no banker, no banker could I find.
When the train pulled out next mornin', no banker was left behind


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Jul 12 - 05:52 PM

I'll try to find the article, Jack... You obviously don't get it... It's not about a median income for 50% of the population... It is about the median income of only those in the bottom half... When you put the top half in it brings the median income up because some people make millions... There are no millionaires in the bottom half...

Like I said, "you don't get it"... I'll see if I can find the date it was published and go from there...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 16 Jul 12 - 06:31 PM

Jack the Sailor: ""Out loud?"
It is text on a computer screen.
What is wrong with you? LOL!!"

So loud..MY EYES ARE GETTING BLURRY!!!!....my ears are already ringing, but that's not from you...so, you're off the hook!

Waving

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Jul 12 - 06:55 PM

My brain is gettin' blurry trying to explain something that seemed so easy for me to understand in the article but impossible to explain to folks who usually get stuff...

B for Bobert

B for Bobert w/blurry brain

(Leave it alone GfinS...)

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 16 Jul 12 - 07:14 PM

Bobert,

I think you are explaining what you read well enough. But you do seem a bit blurry about the implications.

I think you have made your point. You don't have to look for the article for my sake.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Jul 12 - 07:26 PM

Implication: We have one shit load of Americans living below, at or barely over poverty...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 16 Jul 12 - 07:27 PM

Absolutely!


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 16 Jul 12 - 10:41 PM

After having reconsidered Bobert's recent post, and after having done a bunch of googling, even without his article, I've figured out what he is talking about--(well, I still don't actually get his point), but he is referring "relative poverty", which is an income level that, depending on who is figuring it, is set at 50-60% of the median income, and is more of a register of income inequality, and a restriction of choices, rather than material suffering (i.e.-Jimmy's family went Skiing in Vail, we went snow tubing on the Golf Course).


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Jul 12 - 10:54 PM

Wrong, Stim... I am talking about abject poverty... You don't see these folks in the mall... You don't see these people driving cars... I live in the deep south and can take you to areas where these people live... It's like 50-60 years ago... Of course, righties say it doesn't exist... It exists and it is massive...

I mean, I can take ya'll to areas in any major city where folks are warehoused... Tens of millions of folks are hidden in the US... So other folks think, "Hey, they don't exist"... I was a social worker for a good portion of my life... I've seen the hiding places and they aren't pretty...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 16 Jul 12 - 11:44 PM

Bobert: "Wrong, Stim... I am talking about abject poverty..."


Moral poverty??....or intellectual poverty?.......oh yeah, you're all talkin' about MONEY!!!...just like rich folks, huh?

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 02:06 AM

I don't disagree with you, Bobert. I've been around a while. Long enough to have noticed there aren't many people, right or left, who really have very much commitment to dealing with it.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 09:04 AM

With more and more folks, who used to consider themselves middle class, falling into poverty it is America's #1 problem right now... And it need to be corrected or we are not going to maintain any level of civilization... Crime rates, after a 2 decade drop, are back on the rise... There isn't a day that goes by here in the Charlotte, NC area where there isn't at least 1 murder and usually more than 1...

We need to address this... And soon...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 10:18 AM

Hey, Bobert, the South doesn't have a monopoly on "abject poverty" - Appalachia continues from West VA right on up thru Pennsylvania & into the Adirondacks of northern New York.

I'll match you one on one for folks with no jobs, no cars, no homes, no money, little or no food, and no hope.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 10:29 AM

10-4, Greg... I used to live in Wes Ginny (20 years to be exact)in one of the mountain hollers... But really, you can go to almost any large urban area, North or South and find areas densely populated by poor people... It's not just a Southern thing, fir sure... And with 30 years of union busting it's happening more and more to middle class America from sea to polluted sea...

BTW, ya'll... Thanks to the US banking crash of '08, real estate values have dropped so much that the net per capita wealth of Canadians has surpassed those of citizens here in the US... And so Romney thinks we need less regs on our banks??? Mentally ill man...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Stringsinger
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 10:48 AM

Yes, Sawz, there are those of us who don't think being rich is a badge of honor, more a badge of shame when it short changes others, not paying taxes to improve the public good.

Being rich is overrated, those with bucks who are sick in mind and body, selfish, greedy,
insensitive to those who are less fortunate.

We have to remember in the polling data that a great number of Americans don't believe that "Evolution" exists, being in thrall to their preachers, rabbis and imams.

From what I can gather, the red flags are being offered by some Mudcat people in the form of so-called Conservative values, reactionary at their core, indicate a hidden agenda, they perhaps, working for certain law enforcement agencies or think tanks to influence policy.
It pays to be suspicious and skeptical, these days.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 11:55 AM

If anything turns people toward "conservative values", it could very well be discussions like this one, that toss around all the old cliches about money, wealth, and the rich like they actually mean something.

Bobert, when you speak from your own experience a social worker, nothing is more compelling, but when you toss around numbers from magazine articles, you're on thin ice.

As for you, Frank--I am surprised that, after years of watching Eisenhower, Nixon, and Johnson, Bush, etc using taxes to build up the Military/Industrial complex, culminating in post 9/11 Patriot Act America, that you didn't have a little trouble with the idea of "paying taxes to improve the public good".

The unfortunate reality is that if we live in the most affluent country in the world, it's because capitalists made it happen. The working people helped, but as someone pointed out, "Unless you've got money to pay them, workers won't generally work for you."


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,999
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 12:11 PM

America needs another Jacob Riis about now. I expect the damned Republicans would claim he photo-shopped the pictures. Thing is, the same scenes would be 'still-enacted' (to be reenacted would require that the cycle of poverty came to a stop at some point, but it hasn't).

The notion that anyone deserves riches or poverty results from an under indulgence in thinking. Interesting in terms of its other purpose though which seems to be that regardless your economic status, somehow you deserve it, implying that you had choices to begin with. However, even people who had choices can wake up finding themselves with none.

The following from Wikipedia

"History

The world's first food bank was the St. Mary's Food Bank Alliance in Arizona, founded by John van Hengel in 1967. [4]

In 1965, while volunteering for a community dining room, van Hengel learned that grocery stores often had to throw away food that had damaged packaging or was near expiration. He started collecting that food for the dining room but soon had too much for that one program. He thought of creating a central location from which any agency can receive donations. Described as a classic case of "if you build it they will come", [7] the first food bank was created with the help of St. Mary's Basilica.[8]

Food banks quickly spread across the United States. By 1976, the precursor to Feeding America was established. Their network of 200+ foodbanks provides support for 90,000 projects. Other large networks exist such as Ample Harvest which lists some 33,000 food pantries that can utilise overproduction of fresh produce. Following the 2008 worldwide financial crisis, there has been an increase in the number of folk requesting help from food banks. According to a 2012 UCLA Center for Health Policy Research study, there has been a 40% increase in demand for Californian food banks since 2008, with even married couples who both work sometimes requiring the aid of food banks. [9]
In the 1980s, Food banks began to appear all around the world. The first european Food bank was founded in France during 1984. Food banks were soon established in South America, Africa and Asia. In 2007, The Global FoodBanking Network was formned. [4]"

The meaning of the above is quite clear: Governments do not have the ability (will?) to feed their own people. And they won't until such time as money is redirected from weapons expenditure.

#####################################

It amazes me that the hang-up being touted by the Democrats about Romney is whether or not he was the operating CEO of Bain for a few years when he said he's wasn't. The greater issue should be his off-shore banking practices. Why vote for a man who values money more than he values his country or its citizens?


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Stringsinger
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 12:43 PM

Hey Stim, I never said that the Military Industrial Complex improved the public good.
The solution is that taxes need to be paid for the public good, not for corporate greed whether military or otherwise. Besides, eg: Blackwater is privatized. The corporate lobbyists need to be regulated by responsible government agencies.
Why should Wall Street run our government?



Capitalists are destroying the most affluent and freedom loving country in the world by turning our industrial base into a gambling casino and outsourcing jobs. The working people were the reason that capitalists can skim off the top of their efforts. The workers are the makers, the capitalists (Wall Street) are the takers. That's the unfortunate reality.
Not paying taxes for a decent government insures that the capitalists will continue to rob the workers.

Your reality is different from mine.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Stringsinger
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 12:49 PM

Besides, the Military Industrial Complex is mostly run by corporations such as Lockheed Martin, Boeing and the like who are not government agencies.

The wars that the taxpayer pays for are mostly privatized, these days.

Motives are war are so private companies can invade countries and extract resources such as oil.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 12:58 PM

Guest, 999: "Why vote for a man who values money more than he values his country or its citizens?"


...and judging from a lot of the posts in the room...Who gives a fuck about an electorate, who cares more about money than honesty and integrity...and who act like a bunch of seals at Marine World, waiting, clapping and barking to be tossed another anchovie...except what they are waiting, clapping and barking for is just another lie, from their preferred candidate.
It's so fucking stupid, that it is a parody of American stupidity..or maybe a laboratory experiment of what people act like when they watch the 'news' media....pointing the blame away, from those who own the 'news' media, and own the candidates....and yes, that means the faux liberal guy we have in office, now!

Demand better,..and make your voice heard.....or shut up, you don't have much to say, anyway.......(we already heard it on the 'news').
might as well watch the 'Cartoon Channel'.

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 01:12 PM

999, The last addendum in the last post was NOT directed at you, personally.

Regards,

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 01:47 PM

For good or ill, it is capital that made this country affluent. Capitalism isn't evil, but it is amoral, which means that to prevent harm, it needs to regulated, and way more than we do now.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: pdq
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 02:13 PM

"The world's first food bank was the St. Mary's Food Bank Alliance in Arizona..."

How does this statement support the leftist concept that the People are hopeless without the government?

The job of caring for the bottom 5% once fell to churches. The Athiest Left moved the responsibility to the government (them, of course).


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,999
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 02:22 PM

"The job of caring for the bottom 5% once fell to churches"

True, but that five percent is now 25%.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: pdq
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 02:41 PM

Can you support that number?

The US has 8% unemployment (the government wouldn't lie to us, would it?) and 14.8% of us are on food stamps. Either of those numbers could be used to show the dependancy/poverty rate.

BTW, all countries and all societies need poor people. That is just a fact, and it is absurd to blame all flaws in human society on Republicans.

We had so few poor folks in the US that we started actively recruiting them from Mexico.

White kids don't pick crops, make hotel rooms or clean restrooms. Beneath their dignity.

For 50 years the White kids have been smoking dope, whining about the "rich people" and trying to earn their bucks by playing an electric guitar.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 02:55 PM

Stim: "For good or ill, it is capital that made this country affluent. Capitalism isn't evil, but it is amoral, which means that to prevent harm, it needs to regulated, and way more than we do now."


You must be another citizen of 'Sanity-Land'!! ...a foreigner to this shit!

Nice to see a fellow citizen.

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Stringsinger
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 04:26 PM

I would argue that it was not capital that made this country affluent but the
industry of the working class that supported the capitalists who took advantage.
I agree that it needs to be regulated.

There is no legitimate concept that people are helpless without the government.
The people are the government and the representatives should work for the people.
Any realistic advance in social development comes from the people who push the government along lines of advancement bottom up. This is why the grass roots are so important and not the politicians who supposedly serve the people.

It is irrelevant where the first food bank came from. The important thing now is the Occupy has created many food banks and is actively feeding those in need.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,999
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 04:31 PM

Occupy is doing something valuable, but until it presents itself as an alternative to Republicans or Democrats, it isn't really doing much except postponing the inevitable.

PDQ, you think you have a logic in that last post. I fail to see it.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 04:55 PM

America had the combination of enormous available natural resources and millions of hardworking immigrants. Organising things to use that combination productively meant that some people fund themselves in a position to exploit their fellow citizens and appropriate a vast proportion of the wealth produced - and they used that opportunity ruthlessly.

And that is the form of capitalism which has achieved godlike status in the American psyche.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 05:15 PM

Yo, Stim...

The facts I have provided are from the largest newspaper in North Carolina, the "Charlotte Observer"... Not "some magazine"... Read for comprehension before offering your critiques, por favor...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 06:09 PM

We did and do have the natural resources, but it takes capital to develop industries in order to exploit those resources. Only after capital is used to develop industry is there anywhere for hardworking immigrants to work. That's why we need the rich--they have the capital.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,999
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 07:12 PM

Stim, you are correct as far as you go. There has to be cash to get stuff going. I would expect as an investor in a project to realize a reasonable profit. Pick a number that's reasonable. If all my money is in the project I would expect a living wage and a modest 10-15%. If I am shilling for many other people who also expect 10-15%, the cost is going up. However, cash without workers doesn't mean much--nor does workers without cash. Truthfully, I wouldn't want government help or big money help. Help from those bastards is like asking your favorite gang leader for a favor. He may come through, but you'll be on the hook for a long, long time.

I do see where you are coming from, Stim; I appreciate your views and equanimity. But realities for the bottom 25% are very different. Theirs is a world of deprivation and subsistence where life is gauged to be a success if ya wake up in the morning.

My issue with both rich and poor people is this: if the rich weren't so rich, the poor wouldn't be so poor. The world of finance has become a monster that eats its young--or more to the point, our young. Wars fed by our money and our kids; realities paid for with our money, not theirs. This is rampantly stupid. If I had a dog that was as crazy as this I'd shoot it.

As a BTW, I am the top end of poor. I am not complaining. But when people who have less than I do make it day to day, I sometimes wonder why they want to (I don't wonder at how they do).

People who used to eat from plates, no matter how cracked, washed-out or faded, ate. These days there are just too many empty plates.

Best regards to you.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 07:19 PM

>>We did and do have the natural resources, but it takes capital to develop industries in order to exploit those resources.<<

I totally believe in capitalism. I don't believe in oligarchy.

It takes some Capital. But we have something called public ownership of companies. Workers can own stock. It does not require that we have People as rich as the Kochs or the Waltons or even Mitt Romney. This country was most prosperous and had the best growth when the top marginal tax rate was near 90% and there was a hefty estate tax.

Bill Gates and Steve Jobs would have been just as innovative for 1 tenth the money. Lebron James would play basketball for 2 million a year instead of twenty.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 07:21 PM

What we have after 30 years of union busting is a 40% increase in worker productivity and 0% in increased wages (after inflation)... Who is benefiting??? Guess...

Hint: Ain't the 99%...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,999
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 08:02 PM

What is more deplorable than 'union busting' is worker devaluation. What we have now is people thinking that unions have broken the worker market. That is untrue. The worker owners are spending billions NOT to break unions, but rather to break workers. As a worker, I suggest fuck you as appropriate response. I am not going to help. I will not vote for you, I will not depend on you for my subsistence. You do not exist in my world. In short, kiss mine for a change. And when your investment fails, blame me. I'm used to that--but it just don't work no mo'.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: pdq
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 08:03 PM

GUEST,999 says we have 25% poverty and B-pert says it is 50%!

Amazing claims since the semi-official poverty line is $12,000 a year for a single self-supporter and $22,000 for a family of four, assumed to be a husband a wife and two children.

That translates to $1000 per month for the single, a figure that qualifies you for food assistance and some other government support systems.

The $12K single/$22K family criterion represents 15 percent of the US population.

15 percent of 320 milion people is about 48 million total.. That is the same number of people who get food assistance right now, say to the tune of $160-200 per month. Effectively, that is $1000 income plus $200 Food Stamps or $1200 per month, or $14,400 per year.

As GUEST,Patsy said (before being rudely treated) is that just ain't poverty in a world where $1.25 a day is the current poverty line.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 08:19 PM

"Amazing claims since the semi-official poverty line is $12,000 a year for a single self-supporter and $22,000 for a family of four, husband a wife and two children."

"Semi-official?", is that like nearly pregnant?

"assumed to be"   So three kids and a mom aren't a family? Andy, Opie and Aunt Bee weren't a family????? Say it ain't so say it ain't so!!

"a world where $1.25 a day is the current poverty line." That is Mitt Romney World.

"Why yes Anne, we'll give the poor in this country the chance to earn $2.50 per day in sweatshops and at twice the world poverty threshold. They should be able to live comfortably on that!"
five minutes later...

"500 dollars a day for board and grooming? Our precious dancing horse is worth every penny."


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 08:20 PM

The official poverty threshold numbers are so outta whack it is laughable... No, it isn't... It's cry-able...

$22,400 a year for a family of four???

I'd love to see anyone's budget on what the Repubs want people to have to provide for themselves on that amount while providing for all the privatized stuff they have in mind for America, including retirement and education for their kids...

Yes, please anyone... Post your budget...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,999
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 08:33 PM

My budget is rent, electricity bill and food. What's yer's?


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: pdq
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 08:43 PM

Same plus beer.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 08:53 PM

Transportation...

Kids expenses...

Insurance....

Retirement... I know, what's that???

Taxes???

Clothing???

Health care???

BTW, as long as one rents there can never be reitirement...

Entertainment, even if it means renting a movie once a month...

Internet, TV...

Charity??? Never mind...

Lot goes into budgeting other than rent, electricity and food, especially when ya' 2 kids and a wife...

$22,400...

Anyone want to step up???

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 08:54 PM

$1.25 a day don't by much beer.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,999
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 09:07 PM

"As GUEST,Patsy said (before being rudely treated) is that just ain't poverty in a world where $1.25 a day is the current poverty line."

GUEST Patsy ain't living on $1.25 a day, is she!


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Greg F.
Date: 18 Jul 12 - 09:44 AM

White kids don't pick crops, make [up ] hotel rooms or clean restrooms.

Complete bullshit, PeeSDee, as is the rest of that posting of yours. As usual.

Be happy to show you plenty of white kids doing exactly those things if you'd care to drop by.

As for the rest of your bullshit, its not worth responding to.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 18 Jul 12 - 01:07 PM

JtS-I understand your points, and tend to agree with them. Another problem we have is that the long term capital gains tax is lower than the tax on earned income(15% vs 25-35% for median income and above).

If your Great, Great, Great Grandfather sold enough shoe polish to buy half of a swamp that is now a financial district, and you spend your days having bon-bons and champagne on your yacht, you'd pay $60k on the $400k you "earned" from investments. If, on the other hand, you're doctor who saves hundreds of lives everyday (@ $10 each), you'd pay $140,000 tax on that same $400k.

If you were the doctor, you'd figure out pretty fast that you'd do better to invest your money than to work for it. If you were the bon-bon guy, you'd just smile and keep getting richer.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 18 Jul 12 - 01:36 PM

And... You get the same tax benefit investing it in China, which does nothing for our economy, or worse, in commodities or real estate speculation which actually damages our economy.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Rapparee
Date: 18 Jul 12 - 02:49 PM

1. The rich deserve their wealth, whether they worked for it or not.
2. They are entitled to it.
3. I thought lots of Congressfolks were against entitlements.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Jul 12 - 07:26 PM

Well, first we had to debunk the 58% approve which ended up more like 15% and this finally is settling down to how the richest country in the world distributes its riches among it population...

Right now??? We are doing a very poor (pun intended) job...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Jul 12 - 07:28 PM

"Capital" is just numbers written in a column in a bank. When they want more they just write more numbers. They use words like "leveraging" and "quantative easing", but it's just nunbers written down in a column in a bank.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 18 Jul 12 - 07:48 PM

Getting back to the original, stupid, question, let's consider what it means, reductio ad absurdum, if necessary.

The question was, "Most rich people in my country deserve their wealth".

For the purposes of this discussion, I am going to use information from this article Who Rules America by G. William Domhoff, a professor of Sociology at UC Santa Cruz (the leftmost city in the US). OK, he doesn't have the credibility of the Charlotte Observer, but what do you want, egg in your beer?

He says:

"In the United States, wealth is highly concentrated in a relatively few hands. As of 2007, the top 1% of households (the upper class) owned 34.6% of all privately held wealth, and the next 19% (the managerial, professional, and small business stratum) had 50.5%, which means that just 20% of the people owned a remarkable 85%, leaving only 15% of the wealth for the bottom 80% (wage and salary workers)."

OK!!! It makes me want to start singing "The Banks are made of marble", or "Joe Hill" or the first verse of "The Internationale".

Do those upper class parasites deserve to own most of the wealth! HELL NO!!!

But wait, actually, according to our "Leftest City In America" Sociologist(who might even be a Marxist!!) they *don't* own most of wealth. Managers, professionals, and small business folks own 50%, and wage and salaried workers own 15%, meaning that folks who work for a living own 65% of the wealth.

Now, given that both Common Law and the Constitution affirm the you have a right to hold private property, in other words, that you deserve to have whatever wealth you have, the fact is that 42% of the population don't think that the rich should have their wealth, and a lot of the rest only think it's sort of ok.

Does anybody ask if the white collar workers deserve their wealth, or if the hardhats and factory workers deserve their wealth?


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Jul 12 - 07:59 PM

No, Stim... Read for comprehension here... Go to the original poll... Read it... The 42% you throw around as if is the Holy Grail isn't 42% at all... Nor is the 58% who believe that these folks "deserve" their wealth...

Actually the poll never got around the real percentage of "agree" because it combined "strongly agree" and "somewhat agree"... In other words, another completely bogus poll...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jul 12 - 08:17 PM

I said it was a stupid question, Bobert. Maybe you should read for comprehension:-)


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 18 Jul 12 - 08:31 PM

Wealthy is a relative term.


Most of the wealthy got it from their relatives!


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Jul 12 - 09:23 PM

It was not only a stupid question but stupid methodology...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 18 Jul 12 - 09:53 PM

It wasn't a stupid question to someone, because they paid to have the survey done; they seem to have been paying to have the survey done for quite a number of years. I don't think it was Sawzaw...


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 18 Jul 12 - 10:00 PM

As to relative wealth, it comes from not giving it to your relatives.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Sawzaw
Date: 19 Aug 12 - 01:11 PM

"because it combined "strongly agree" and "somewhat agree"... In other words, another completely bogus poll..."

For a person that claims to be highly educated in stats, Bobert exhibits an ignorance about polls.

The poll also combined "strongly disagree" and "somewhat disagree" to arrive at the real percentage of people that disagree.

I believe Bobert graduated from Blowhard University.

Majoring in how to bullshit your way without having any proof of anything.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Aug 12 - 01:34 PM

Blowhard U beats out yer Retard U, Sawz...

Here's an idea for ya...Why not take some real college classes in a real college so you wouldn't continually prove just how little you know or understand about the real world...

But you won't do that because you are Exhibit A thru Z that "ignorance is bliss"... You must be one very happy man...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,999
Date: 19 Aug 12 - 10:08 PM

"Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth"

Predicate: RE: BS: The other 42% say that if God meant humans to fly we would have been born with wings.

Republicans were vocal on the issue because they wanted to add their two percent but a mathematics guy said there was no place to put it. Democrats were strangely silent after suggesting in an off-camera remark that they knew where it could be put. Libertarians were once again doing a Dali and the Greens refused to comment except to say, "What?" An independent candidate who wanted to express his views was declined an interview because he could not ensure he'd avoid the word 'fuck' while on air. He couldn't offer assurances about what might happen if he got high on grass before the interview.

NORAD had not returned our call by publication deadline.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 20 Aug 12 - 03:35 AM

I have no problem with 6 billion people being equally wealthy


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Henry Krinkle
Date: 20 Aug 12 - 04:57 AM

They sure as hell never deserved a bailout.
Rich crybabies.
(:-( P)=


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Owen Woodson
Date: 20 Aug 12 - 05:33 AM

Forgive me. I'm lost.

1. Does this 58% include the rich, in which case the survey results are skewed?

2. Does the unskewed portion of the 58% think that all of the rich deserve all of their riches? If so that must include every wealthy gangster, drug dealer, fraudster, slum landlord etc?

3. If they don't, then which portion of the rich are the deserving? Is it limited to those who acquired their riches through honest toil? If so, what about the people who likewise spent their lives in honest toil and left this world as poor as the day they entered it?

4 Does it include all the bankers who nearly brought the world economy to its knees, and may yet succeed in doing so.

5. Does it include lottery winners and other people who have acquired their wealth fortuitously?

6. Does it include people who were born into riches and who therefore did nothing to enter the echelons of the wealthy?

7. Does it mean the rest of the world deserves its poverty?

I'm curious because I've just had a call from one Lewis Carroll asking if I know what's happened to his white rabbit.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 20 Aug 12 - 07:13 AM

You can tell Gods opinion of money by the people he gives it all to, I've heard this credited to Ewan MacColl but I'm not 100% sure.

Dave H


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Aug 12 - 09:57 AM

As I pointed out earlier, the study is bogus... The pollsters took two categories "deserve" + "somewhat deserve" to get to 58%...

"Somewhat deserve" does not = "deserve" as it implies "Somewhat don't deserve"...

Stats 001 (bonehead stats, remedial, non credit)

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Sawzaw
Date: 20 Aug 12 - 11:38 AM

Dear blind Bobert:

Evidently you learned to read at Blowhard U.

There were four categories. None of them mentioned deserve.

strongly agree

somewhat agree

somewhat disagree

strongly disagree


By your boneheaded Blowhard U logic, "somewhat disagree" would would also imply "Somewhat agree"

Did you even bother to look at the study? Typical Blowhard procedure. Do not even look at the thing they are discussing and act as if they know all about it.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Aug 12 - 01:14 PM

Yo, Retard alum...

"Somewhat agree" and "somewhat disagree" are the same...

It's like "partly cloudy" or "partly sunny" or...

The glass is "half full" or "half empty"...

Any pollster who actually passed Stats 201 (3 credits) wouldn't have *deducted* that "somewhat agree" = agree and would have designed a poll that was more academically honest...

Of course, that pollster might have been one of your classmates at R.U.???

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Sawzaw
Date: 20 Aug 12 - 02:05 PM

So if the two questions are the same, how come people answered them different?

How would you answer the two? The same? Check both? One or the other?

Oh I forgot, you are a blowhard the never commits to an answer.

Any 9 year old kid would know the difference between somewhat agree and some what disagree and they would be smart enough not to confuse deserve with agree.

Also they would have enough computer skills to know how to emphasize a word without using ** like they did in the mainframe 60's

But there was arrested development at Blowhard U. They still believe that the West Bank is no larger than Washington DC at Blowhard U.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Aug 12 - 03:00 PM

Do you think, Sawzaw, that the poll you quote from was an exercise that would benefit people in any way...or one which would further divide them against one another?

Are most polls anything more than an attempt to push some kind of agenda, score some kind of propaganda point for somebody, and manipulate people's views? Should we even have them? Do they do more harm than good? What do you think?

Pre-election polls, for instance, can often influence voters to vote...or not to vote...depending on which way they think the wind is blowing. They'd rather vote for a "winner" than for a "loser", so they'll jump ship or even change sides if they think their candidate is losing ground. Do you think that's a good thing? I don't. I would prefer a society where we had no polls.

Also, the questions are often overly simplistic, encouraging a knee-jerk response rather than careful thought, and they're often worded to solicit a pre-determined response, and that misleads people. I regard polls kind of the way I do legalized gambling, I think they're a vice that greatly harms a society.

One poll I am in favour of, however: exit polls at elections. They can help to expose voting fraud.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Sawzaw
Date: 20 Aug 12 - 03:22 PM

What polls do is give some interested party an indication of what people think.

I do not let Polls influence my opinions. I weight the facts and form my own opinions regardless if I am in the majority or not.

There is still nothing to make people tell the truth when exiting.

They can say anything they want. Especially if they think they are under peer pressure.

Do you, LH, believe Obama deserves his wealth?


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Aug 12 - 04:02 PM

Sawzaw, I honestly don't know enough about Obama's wealth to offer an opinion about that. In any case, I have no particular reason to be defending him. I'm very disappointed in what he's done while in office, I'd probably be even more disappointed by what the Republicans would do in his place, but that's merely hypothetical. Obama in office IS the present reality, and I find little or no reason to be pleased with his performance there...much as I found little or no reason to be pleased with Bush when he was in office.

You're right that people can lie at exit polls, but I doubt that most of them would. They can also lie to any other poll, and there may be a few who do, but I doubt that most do. Most people can't wait to express their opinion about anything when asked...they're so damn proud of it!...so they usually DO say what they really mean. ;-) See what I'm getting at?

Are you sure that polls have NO influence on your opinions? How about on your level of confidence, your mood, etc? Most people find it somewhat discouraging and depressing if a poll seems to say that their viewpoint is not favored by a majority of their fellow citizens. If they get discouraged enough, then they may not vote. Again...see what I'm getting at?

The political parties worry about that a lot, and it's not surprising that they do. They FEAR their supporters losing confidence!

I can well understand that an interested party wants to gauge the public mood. That's fine. I just don't think the results should then be openly publicized and used as a proganda device in order to further manipulate the public mood. And they are. Continually.

It's a game. We deserve better than a game when it comes to public service, and the politicians are supposed to be (cough! cough!) public servants.

But in reality they're not. They're servants of the elite whose ranks they come from. And that has become more and more obvious in the last few decades. Or maybe it was always obvious, and we (the aging demographic of the 50s and 60s) have by now seen enough time and experience go by to realize it.

What you have a choice of at election time is to vote for one half of the elite...or the other half of the elite...both of whom pretend they are for "the little guy". An elite that pretends to represent the general public, but that represents only itself and its own interests. Obama is part of that elite. So is Romney. So is pretty well anyone who ever gets to run for president or for the Senate.    And so are most of the Representatives (although the odd one might slip through who is not really from the elite...but so few of those do that it makes little difference). It takes a lot of money and a lot of friends to win an election campaign. Most of it comes directly from...the elite.

Remember...in your elections I have no horse to back. I have no reason to be defending Mr Obama, and I have no reason to be backing Romney either. They're both snake oil salesman to me.

I feel about them the way you might have felt about 2 Russian Communist Party leaders who were jockeying to be the next Premier of Soviet Russia after Brezhnev or Krushchev. When you totally disbelieve in an existing governmental system somewhere...why would you favor one of its creatures over the other?


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Aug 12 - 06:10 PM

Enroll in a basic stats course, Sawz, at your local community college... The one you took at R.U. didn't teach you anything about polls or stats...

BTW, I needed to have 6 credit hours in addition to two semesters of Econ in order to fill out my certification to teach high school economics... Yeah, there weren't alot of high schools that offered economics but some actually did... Stats was approved so I took it... I understand this stuff...

I also enjoyed my professor who on Day One went to the chalk board and proved that 2 = 1... He wanted us to see just how stats could be manipulated... I have never forgotten that lesson...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Musket
Date: 21 Aug 12 - 04:43 AM

For me, the issue is not so much wealth, but what to do with it.

Money is a barter based abstraction, nothing more, nothing less. So in order for money to actually be money, it needs to be bartering. Simple.

Hence mega rich people sitting on, we are told, trillions is a bit obscene if governments are having to print money to kickstart economies. The only reason quantative easing isn't causing hyper inflation is that it is replacing money that is being taken out of the system when the mega rich squirrel it away.

Deserving etc is one argument. The effect is another.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Aug 12 - 09:31 AM

Exactly, Musket...

GNP is a measure of how many times a dollar is passed... It's called the multiplier effect... If that dollar isn't spent then it is a drain on the GNP and therefore contracts the economy (i.e. "growth")... Having $2T taken out of the US economy is taking a major toll on the US economy...

I'd say that if they won't invest it then that money should be nationalized and put into repairing the crumbling infrastructure that these people depended on to earn (poor word) that $2T...

And...

...200...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Aug 12 - 10:00 AM

Good points, guys. Money is just a tool to enable other things to be done in this society. If a tool is hoarded and locked away in a vault and not used, nothing useful gets done with it. If a tool is simply used to create more identical tools exactly like itself (more money) nothing useful gets done. The money game in North America, as practiced by the richest people in society, is played not to get anything useful done...but simply to make MORE money for the people at the top of the game...and it also enables them to eat at very expensive restaurants and buy yachts, of course. ;-)

And that's a crime against the entire society. That's the crime Wall Street and the big bankers committed, and they should be on trial for having done it.

Capitalism was supposed to be about creating real goods, jobs, services, education, and social infrastructure for the nation, NOT about inflating phony money bubbles to enrich a few dishonest sharks at the top of the feeding chain!


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Aug 12 - 10:22 AM

"...the Constitution affirm(s) that you have a right to hold private property,"

Does it? And are there any limits on what can be counted as "private property"?

There is no clear statement in the US Constitution about a right to own private property, as you find in some constitutions.

What you've got is a Fifth Amendment which says that you can only be deprived of private property through due process of law.   Which isn't exactly the same thing. And there is no definition of what counts as "private property", over and above a mention in your Fourth Amendment of "houses papers and effects".


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Sawzaw
Date: 21 Aug 12 - 10:35 AM

"The polls I am referring to are really a combination of several non-partisan polling organizations that I pay some attention to including the New York Times, the Washington Post and even the network polls... While these organizations do represent the ruling class on the whole, they are at the very least somewhat in the ball part evn if they tend to scew toward the folks in power so when I see them admitting that 60% of the American people thought that the Iraq invasion was a mistake then in my mind I factor in the "corporate/establishment variable" which means that the number is probably somewhat higher... Learned that in "Statistics 201" which dealt alot with polls..."

"I factor in the "corporate/establishment variable" which means that the number is probably somewhat higher... Learned that in "Statistics 201" which dealt alot with polls..."


Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, The feller that wrote that evidently believes that somewhat higher actually means something different from somewhat lower.

But Bobert knows that somewhat higher also means somewhat lower, right?

So that guy must have taken Stats 201 at :

Blowhard U. ___________

Bonehead U.__________

Retard U. ____________


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Aug 12 - 11:21 AM

Where are those 3 schools located, Sawzaw? ;-) I'm thinking maybe Shane could do a correspondence course at one or another of them and finally get his Grade 9.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Sawzaw
Date: 21 Aug 12 - 11:59 AM

I have never been to any of them LH. Ask Perfesser Bobert.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Aug 12 - 02:10 PM

Nor have you been to any college or perhaps even high school, Saws, as you certainly appear to be incapable of grasping simple academic concepts...

Get an education, man... You are making a fool of yourself...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Sawzaw
Date: 21 Aug 12 - 04:10 PM

"The polls I am referring to are really a combination of several non-partisan polling organizations that I pay some attention to including the New York Times, the Washington Post"

Ahhhhhh Here is a poll conducted by Yale University and George Mason Universityand cited by the New York Times that uses the four caetgories:
Strongly agree
Somewhat agree
Somewhat disagree
Strongly disagree

I Guess Yale and George Mason need to be renamed Retard U. Eh Perfesser Bobert?


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Aug 12 - 04:28 PM

Using "retard" in that way is as repellant as using "Nigger" would be.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Aug 12 - 04:42 PM

Bad methodology is bad methodology, Saws...

Actually, George Mason is known for having more than its fair share of right winged professors... It would not surprise me to learn that one of their righties was involved in design a bogus poll... BTW, bogus polls are nothing new... The Rasmussen Poll is bogas as a 3 dollar bill.... They design all their questions with an outcome in mind...

The 58% was the outcome that these pollsters were shooting for so they rigged it with the "somewhat" category and then included the somewhats into their final "deserve" number of 58%... Take that out and what you find its one heck of a lot less who said the rich deserve their wealth... But trying to explain sophomore stats to you is like talking to a box of creek rocks... You just don't get basic concepts or logic... Like I have said many times... Get an education, man... And get some mental health care while yer at it...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Aug 12 - 04:51 PM

You are absolutely right, McG, and my apologies to the entire Mudcat community... From here on I will describe Saws condition as "mentally challenged"...

I sometime think I'm back in by Mash/Social-worker Unit... Where the case files were politically correct but many social workers used politically incorrect language when talking with each other about clients... Not all, mid you... But a fair share...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Sawzaw
Date: 21 Aug 12 - 04:53 PM

Hmmmm Here is part of a lesson plan from the New York Times that uses the Somewhat Agree/Somewhat Disagree question.

In my eighth grade U.S. history class, we debate the merits of having a 9/11 national holiday through a 3-corner debate. We look at a few opposing views on why 9/11 should, or should not be addressed in classrooms and then I write the statement on the board, "9/11 should be deemed a national holiday by the U.S. Congress." Students take a stand in one of three corners of the classroom 1) Strongly Agree 2) Somewhat Agree/Somewhat Disagree 3) Strongly Disagree. One student at a time from each group then has a chance to try to convince students from the other corners of the classroom to move to their corner. To conclude, we discuss who had the strongest argument and why. This is only a one-day, 50-minute lesson. It sparks great debate over the ways we really want to remember the 9/11 tragedy. â€" Jill DiCuffa

Would you use that Lesson Plan Bobert?


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Sawzaw
Date: 21 Aug 12 - 05:34 PM

Bobert's Logic: West Bank <> Washington DC.
West Bank = Most densely populated place on Earth.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Aug 12 - 05:36 PM

Here's where you are wrong, M.C. Sawz...

The title of your thread and the article you cited is "58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth"...

Yes???

Take the simple equation of A + B = A

What does B equal???

Give up???

B = 0...

You with me so far??? Don't want to hurt yer M.C. head...

So in the study the pollsters found (on an average, mind you) that:

Those who said they strongly thought the rich deserved their wealth was 15%... We'll call that A for now and return to it later..

Now enters the word "somewhat" which Websters II New Riverside University Dictionary defines as "to some extent"... "To some extent" means that there is, at the very least, there exists a part of the thinking that does not believe or...

Still with us, Sawz???

Or do you want to argue that "some extend" = "strongly believe"???

So back to A + B = 58%...

If A = 15 then B = 43%... (58% - 15% = 43%)

Now back to the title of the study and your thread: "58% Say the Rich Deserve their Wealth"...

"Deserve" is an absolute term...

"Somewhat deserve is not" a, absolute term... It is a grayish term...

So, and you can copy this and take it to any real Stats professor, the statement that "58% Say the Rich Deserve their Wealth" is not supported by the data...

An accurate statement would be "15% Say the Rich Deserve (an absolute) their Wealth"...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Aug 12 - 05:52 PM

New APP poll just out:

"Chongo Chimp would make a great President of the USA and would restore dignity and responsibility to the Oval Office."

Select your best answer from the list below.

I strongly agree!
I somewhat agree.
I somewhat disagree.
I strongly disagree!
I don't know.
Ummm...what was the question? (the Ronald Reagan response)

Join the rising groundswell of support for a Primate President!


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Aug 12 - 05:58 PM

The problem is not whether the public thinks the rich deserve their wealth............

The problem is that the public believes that the poor deserve to be impoverished.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Sawzaw
Date: 21 Aug 12 - 06:02 PM

Errrr, Bobert, you said the poll was bogus because somewhat agree and somewhat disagree was the same thing.

The same two questions are used in polls from the highest learning institutions and from the sources you trust.

Do you know better than them?

Now you are back in the mode of giving someone else a job to do to prove you are right. I am afraid the burden is on you and you claim to be well equipped to prove anything you say.

You are flailing around like a mule hung up in a barbed wire fence. The more you struggle, the tighter you get wrapped up.

Now just face it like a man and admit you were wrong while you still have some hide left on ya.

http://people.iq.harvard.edu/~dhopkins/exitpollresults2.pdf
Regardless of how you voted on Ballot Question
1, please tell us if you agree or disagree with the
following statements:
4. "The Commonwealth of Massachusetts can
reduce its annual spending by 40% without a
major impact on the services it provides."

__Strongly agree

__Somewhat agree

__Somewhat disagree

__Disagree strongly


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Aug 12 - 07:15 PM

Yes, anything that begins "somewhat" allows for for both believe and not believe, regardless if it's on one side or the other...

"Somewhat" is not an honest poll model if the summation is that the "somewhats" get counted as absolutes...

That is the point here, Saws... That makes the title of the thread and the title of the article of the poll bogus...

But don't believe me... Like I said... Copy this and my last post and take it to any Stats professor, even a right winged one...

Then report back...

Sheesh... You can't be this mentally challenged, can you???

I mean, eat up stupid...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Sawzaw
Date: 21 Aug 12 - 11:15 PM

But Perfesser Bobert, how come the higher institutions of learning use somewhat in their polls if it is wrong? Are you smarter than the people at Harvard?

All you have done is danced around answering the question and attempted to throw the burden of proof on me as if I am obligated to prove you are right.

You are the one that says it is wrong so you need to back it up with something instead of being a blowhard that can't back up what you say with anything but more hot air, huffing and puffing and indignation.

You yourself used the term "somewhat higher" which would mean the same as somewhat lower so the term is bogus. Why do you use bogus terms when you are marveling at your own intelligence?

I think your hostile objection is just a display of your intolerance, hatred and hostility toward anybody that has an opinion that differs from yours so you attack them personally.

You believe you are entitled to your opinion but no one else is entitled to theirs.

Bobert street is definitely one way.

http://people.iq.harvard.edu/~dhopkins/exitpoll.pdf

Regardless of how you voted on Ballot Question
1, please tell us if you agree or disagree with the
following statements:
4. "The Commonwealth of Massachusetts can
reduce its annual spending by 40% without a
major impact on the services it provides."

__ Strongly agree

__ Somewhat agree

__ Somewhat disagree

__ Disagree strongly


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Aug 12 - 08:38 AM

Don't ask me, Sawz, why some supposed learned people do stuff that is counter to their chosen area of study but George Mason seems to have more than it's share...

I mean, there are a hand full of supposed learned climatologists who either don't believe in global warming or that man's burning of so much stuff has anything to do with it...

This study/poll falls into that category...

Now, Sawz ol' buddy... I have explained it to you from an academically accurate position... I happened to have bothered to learn statistics in college and that is why I *generally* don't use polls to make my points here in Mudcat... Yes, there are a few occasions where I have but, by in large, stay away from them because of that first day in Stats 201 where Professor Snellings proved that 1 = 2 as an example of how folks can manipulate statistics...

So there is nothing else that can be said... If you insist on keeping your mind closed to logic and academically accepted practices, then fine...

I learned a long time ago when I was a social worker that you can't have logical discussion with mentally ill people when they don't wnat to hear it... Like we used to say, "How many social workers does it take to change a light bulb?"

Answer: "One, but the light bulb must want to be changed"...

Bye for this thread...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,999
Date: 22 Aug 12 - 09:23 AM

"Professor Snellings proved that 1 = 2 as an example of how folks can manipulate statistics..."

Although I never learned from Professor Snellings, I believe that proof was algebraic:

The Proof that 2 = 1

1) a = b
1) Given

2) a2 = ab
2) Multiply both sides by a

3) a2-b2 = ab-b2
3) Subtract b2 from both sides

4) (a+b)(a-b) = b(a-b)
4) Factor both sides

5) (a+b) = b
5) Divide both sides by (a-b)

6) a+a = a
6) Substitute a for b

7) 2a = a
7) Addition

8) 2 = 1
8) Divide both sides by a

#######################################

Solution:

Part one: Step five is wrong. The rules of mathematics do not allow us to divide by zero.

Since a and b are equal, (a-b) = 0. Therefore, we cannot divide by (a-b)!


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Aug 12 - 05:07 PM

That might have been the trick, brucie, I don't perzectly remember the algebra but it sho nuff was tricky, just like most polls that use term like "somewhat"...

BTW, I have no problem with statistics... Stats are important when they are not manipulated...

Here's the kind of stat that is manipulative...

Joe earns $100,000... Bill earns $0...

Bill and Joe's average income is $50,000...

That is manipulating stats...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,999
Date: 22 Aug 12 - 05:38 PM

"An international comparison from the CIA's World Factbook shows that America ranks roughly alongside a number of Second and Third World nations in terms of income distribution, including Iran, Uganda, Cambodia and China."

Also from the Huff Post.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Sawzaw
Date: 22 Aug 12 - 11:56 PM

Bobert still does not answer the question about why Harvard, Yale, Washington Post, New York Times and Bobert himself uses the term Somewhat.

Just Blowhard diversionary tactics.

First Bobert claims.

""Somewhat agree" and "somewhat disagree" are the same..."

Then Bobert says: "if the US is somewhat typical" By Bobert's previous statement Somewhat typical is the same ans somewhat not typical. So why would he use such an ambiguous term to try to prove anything?

Also the learned Bobert said "I factor in the "corporate/establishment variable" which means that the number is probably somewhat higher... Learned that in "Statistics 201" which dealt alot with polls..."

According to Bobert somewhat higher also means somewhat lower so there he is again violating his own rules.

So all he can do is make personal attacks instead of admitting he is wrong or that Harvard Yale, Washington Post & New York Times are wrong for using "somewhat agree"

"Any pollster who actually passed Stats 201 (3 credits) wouldn't have *deducted* that "somewhat agree" = agree and would have designed a poll that was more academically honest..."

Bobert is saying Yale and Harvard are academically dishonest.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,999
Date: 23 Aug 12 - 03:34 AM

Can anyone link to a place I can view the questions asked in this poll?


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Sawzaw
Date: 23 Aug 12 - 07:39 AM

Hint

If you want to direct somebody to an interesting site on the Web (or to information that's at another location at the Mudcat Cafe), the best way to do it is by posting a clickable link. We have a Make a link ("blue clicky") tool at the bottom of message boxes that will make links for you. Click here to try it. You have to highlight and copy the text that results, and paste it into the proper place in your message.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,999
Date: 23 Aug 12 - 12:36 PM

I appreciate that info, but I would still like to see the original list of questions/statements that were in this particular poll.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: pdq
Date: 23 Aug 12 - 12:59 PM

"...America ranks roughly alongside a number of Second and Third World nations in terms of income distribution..."

Yes, but the US and Canada have the Middle Class which very few countries can claim.

People can move up or down the economic ladder and are not trapped as they are in the usual elite/peon societies that are the norm now and throughout history.

Trouble is, the Middle Class is dying. It took a huge hit over the last four years due to the collapse of single family house values.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Aug 12 - 01:51 PM

Yes, the middle class is dying all over the developed world, partly because our traditional manufacturing sector has moved most of the jobs to either Asia (mainly China) or to Mexico. That leaves little for North Americans to do other than push paper, tap on computer keys, and work service jobs....

And partly because of the fraudulent mortgage bubble that was created by utterly dishonest people on Wall Street and in major lending institions...

And partly because incredible amounts of money are being spent on unnecessary and unjustified wars in the Middle East...rather than using that money for social infrastructure and civilian interests back home.

Who did this change benefit? Well, it benefited the military-industrial sector in the USA. It benefited the Pentagon and the CIA. It benefited the oil companies and other major corporations...and their CEOs. It benefited the politicians (both Democrats and Republicans) who are in collusion with all of the above...which is why they bailed out the crooks who caused the financial crash in 2008.

If the middle class could elect some people who really represent them, this wouldn't have happened. But they can't. They are not offered any candidates who really represent them, although that's not what they're told at election time, needless to say. They are just offered a bunch of phony promises and befuddled by a bunch of divide-and-conquer propaganda to make them fight with each other over which representatives of the Elite they cast their vote for. That's how you run an Oligarchy while pretending you have a democracy.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 23 Aug 12 - 02:28 PM

Bobert-
Your heart's in the right place, but math isn't your strong point.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 24 Aug 12 - 07:01 AM

Joe earns $100,000... Bill earns $0...

Bill and Joe's average income is $50,000...

That is manipulating stats...


This is the mean income, but as the sample size is small, that is pretty meaningless.
because the sample size is only 2 there can be no mode or median figure.
But the average spread is £100,000.

Try a sample size of three adding Fred who earns $2, the mean is still high - £33,334, still no mode - we don't have a figure for the most frequent wage rate, but the median Wage rate is $2 - so we have two conflicting averages.
We can also tell that 2/3 of our tiny sample earn less than the mean wage


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 24 Aug 12 - 07:07 AM

Reagrding the survey - as there is no clear definition of the difference between the two somewhat except that one would imply that the somewhat agree would be some tendency to be more agreeing than disagreeing and vice versa for somewhat disagree - but that is purely an assumption on the part of the person analysing the poll.

Also to give the poll validity or otherwise, what were the stated demographics:

Ethnic origin
Income level
Gender
Age
Type of housing
Level of personal debt.

What weighting adjustments were applied to the analysis to ensure the result is as representative as possible?


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Aug 12 - 07:14 AM

The reason that the middle class is shrinking is directly tied to the union busting push started under the Reagan/Thatcher regime... Their efforts have resulted in massive income shifts away from the middle class to Boss Hog and his buddies...

This idea that "We're broke" is the *biggest* of BIG LIES... This is a sick, nihilistic joke that the rich are playing in all the western, developed countries... Where ever you go there are pockets of obscenely rich people living in their mansions... Here in Charlotte it Meyers Park... Miles and miles if 10,000-15,000 sq. ft mansions... Bankers live there...

You want the middle class back then end the 30 year old war on the working man...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Sawzaw
Date: 24 Aug 12 - 11:30 PM

Blowhard Bobert is admitting that his bogus claim that somewhat disagree means the same as somewhat disagree is wrong.

So now he shifts the topic to something else.

Any 9th grader will tell you that somewhat agree means something different than somewhat disagree.

MIT:

Bressoud, D. June, 2011. The Calculus I
Instructor, Launchings www.maa.org/columns/launchings/launchings_06_11.html
[3] Instructors were asked to "Indicate the extent to which you agree or disagree
with following statement: Calculus students learn best from lectures, provided they
are clear and well-prepared." The survey gave six choices from strongly disagree
to strongly agree. The response rates were
Strongly disagree: 3.4%,
Disagree: 12.1%,
Somewhat disagree: 20.2%,
Somewhat agree: 37.3%,
Agree: 20.4%,
Strongly agree: 6.7%.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Sawzaw
Date: 24 Aug 12 - 11:36 PM

99: if you click on the headline in the OP it will take you to the article about the survey. If you click on the word study near the top of the article it will take you to the study.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,999
Date: 25 Aug 12 - 05:55 PM

Thank you.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Sawzaw
Date: 25 Aug 12 - 09:14 PM

"obscenely rich people"

Like the four richest Americans?

Bill Gates?

Warren Buffet?

Larry Ellison?

Cristy Walton?

All Democrats.

Obama is in the top 1% too

So do they deserve their wealth?

__ Strongly Agree

__ Somewhat Agree

__ Somewhat Disagree

__ Strongly Disagree


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Q
Date: 25 Aug 12 - 09:25 PM

Another of those threads that go round and round. Should have been stillborn.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Sawzaw
Date: 25 Aug 12 - 10:04 PM

Suppose the highly educated sats person would like to define what constitutes the Middle Class.

It would be a refreshing change from Blowhardism.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,999
Date: 26 Aug 12 - 10:21 AM

Middle Class as a socioeconomically distinct group has been variously described over the past 60 years. Putting a dollar figure on income is puerile because once take-home pay is eaten at by debt in various forms and costs rising, that figure changes little or lots, depending on a variety of circumstances and factors. That said, here is a balanced article that might be worth reading. Takes about four minutes.


http://www.timesofmalta.com/articles/view/20120826/business-news/US-middle-class-shrinks.434441


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,999
Date: 26 Aug 12 - 10:47 AM

This visual says lots more than polemics.

If people remember their views on this come election day, I'd call the popular vote for Obama to come in near 53% and Romney near 46%. Even with Romney's Republicans doing their best to depend on the Electoral College, they just ain't gonna have enough to win. Small relief, but some relief nevertheless.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 26 Aug 12 - 11:28 AM

Yeah, brucie... The working class's standard of living is no better today than it was in 1982... I'm not going to blame it all on the union busting in which various levels of government have be engaged but that's the centerpiece of Boss Hog's campaign to write all the rules himself...

Also, during this 3 decade period the quality of life has deteriorated and the good rankings in the world slipped downward with the bad one gaining...

What is needed is to get Boss Hog's $$$ out of politics and that's just for starters... That would be a major step in better legislation that is beneficial for the enitre country rather than just management and the rich...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Sawzaw
Date: 26 Aug 12 - 11:49 PM

Do the 4 richest people in the US deserve their wealth? Seems like a simple yes or no question.

Boss Hogg's $$$ went mostly to Obama in 2008. What happened? He has done such a lovely job.

Yer doin' a heckuva job there Barry.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Aug 12 - 01:36 AM

Sawzaw...Bobert may be under the false impression that only the Republicans are allied with the corrupt forces he calls "Boss Hawg" (meaning the rich corporate elite)...and that the Democrats are not, but most of the world outside the borders of the USA knows perfectly well that your rich corporate elites fund and control BOTH of those parties AND determine your foreign and domestic policy no matter which one gets elected.

Why would anyone be surprised that they funded Obama in 2008?????    They fund all of your presidential candidates, and the one who appears most handy to market and elect at any given time is the one who gets the largest share of their funding...and the one who then wins the election.

In 2008, that was Obama. In another election year, it may be a Republican. Or it may not. They'll happily back either horse, because both horses work for them.

Now, look...Bush and Cheney did a marvelous job for your corporates and your military-industrial establishment in the 8 years Bush was in office. They helped make the richest people richer and they royally screwed everyone else. But by 2008 their image was totally wrecked in the eyes of both the world and the American public. They had by that time shown their true colors in a way that was plainly obvious to most people, and their time was up. They had made the Republicans virtually unelectable (for the moment), and the financial crisis put the final nail in the Republican coffin...for the moment.

So it was time for the rich elites to bring forth a completely different looking alternative from the Democrats...Obama...to restore hope and enthusiasm to a weary and very disillusioned electorate. Very brief hope and enthusiasm! But that's all that is needed to win an election...a brief flush of new hope and enthusiasm.

Boss Hawg advanced a new servant in the form of Obama...got him elected brilliantly by making everyone think he represented "change"!

He did not represent change. He just looked like he repesented change. What he truly represented was lots more of the same. More war. More collusion with bankers and corporates. More assaults on your civil rights.

Bush gave you the Patriot Act. Obama has given the the NDAA...even worse than the Patriot Act. Bush was a wolf in Republican clothing. Obama is a wolf in Democratic clothing. And they both work for the very same interests.

Your endless partisan squabbling with Bobert is hilarious....and sad...because neither one of you can see outside the ancient cage of your 2-party divide. You're like a couple of Russian Communists fighting over whether to support Andropov or Brezhnev or Chernenko...while never questioning the basic rottenness of the political/military system that controls ALL of them.

And you just don't get it. You're trapped in your old mythology. You think it'll just be okay if YOUR party wins and the other one loses. It won't be okay, because they both sold out a long time ago. They're both run by liars, bankers, the big corporations, and the Pentagon and the weapons industries, and the only reason you've even got 2 parties anymore is so they can control you by playing off the supporters of one party against the supporters of the other.

That's the game. They win...you lose...every time. Your arguments with Bobert are an exercise in futility for both you and him. As are your elections. Nothing could make your bosses happier than keeping you, the little people, endlessly arguing with each other over partisan loyalties....while they walk off with the great prize: the power to rule over all of you. "Divide and Conquer" is their mantra, and it works every time.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Sawzaw
Date: 27 Aug 12 - 07:25 AM

So the Solution is _______________________________

It all boils down to choosing the lesser of two weevils.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,999
Date: 27 Aug 12 - 08:01 AM

Saws, it does indeed boil down to the lesser of evils. Your back and forth with Bobert shows that. He has stated he supports Democrats. You have never stated who you support, so I won't make any guesses in that regard. However, the lesser of evils in this election IS the Democrats.

No doubt that Obama will win, but what then? We gonna get another 9/11 close to election time? If indeed The Twin Towers was solely a foreign attack on the US--something I doubt very much--then the attackers have forced the US to trade freedom for 'security', and lord knows you have lots of security: DHS, ICE, FEMA, FBI, CIA, NSA, DIA, et.al. If the attacks on 9/11 were domestic (read government led), then again you traded freedom for security. If the attacks were foreign with government collusion, then once again again you traded freedom for security. No matter what it was, your trade-off has resulted in loss of freedoms and not one whole helluvalot of security. You are fast becoming a police state. I expect if Americans do not wake up to what is happening in front of your faces, you'll have a rude surprise in the near future when people with guns arrive at your house and take you away for 're-education'. And all these bullshit arguments will have been for naught, because as LH pointed out, whether you're the horse on the left or the horse on the right, you're both pulling the rich man's wagon.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Aug 12 - 08:45 AM

What America needs is a one year "Truth and Reconciliation" effort to get the country out of its downward spiral... I mean, screw the Congress... Bypass them... Take 100 people randomly from the population, put them up in a conference center and charge them with coming up with a 10 point plan for restoring our nation and our government... As long as those 100 people are randomly chosen they will do a better job than Congress is able to do...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Aug 12 - 11:37 AM

Yeah, they probably would do a better job than Congress, Bobert. ;-) But it ain't gonna happen. Nothing any of us recommends on this forum is gonna happen, cos we aren't the people who call the shots. We're just talking here because it helps us let off steam, clarify our own thoughts to ourselves and others, deal with the frustration to some extent, etc. And because we like to talk.

What if someone had asked Marlene Dietrich for a solution to what was happening in Germany in the late 30's? You think she could have provided one? Her personal solution was...get the hell out of Germany while there was still time. And that's what she did.

I think Obama is going to win this coming election pretty handily (and I think Romney would be a bit worse as president than Obama, though that's mere speculation, but it gives me little comfort either way). I also think there's going to be further war...a possible intervention into Syria and far worse than that, a war with Iran. And after that? A larger conflict, quite possibly involving Russia and China and many other nations, because they are going to reach that point where they finally say "No farther!" to American empire expansion. And I expect another financial meltdown even worse than the one we saw in 2008. And God knows what else after that. Maybe another damn false flag attack that makes even 911 look like small change. Anything is possible with the people who are manipulating events in the USA these days.

Marlene Dietrich was able to escape to the USA back in the 30's, because the world wasn't quite so small then as it is now. But where would a person escape to now? South America, maybe? New Zealand? Anyway, Marlene Dietrich was a famous actress with quite a lot of money. Such people can "escape" more easily than most of us can. They have more available options.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Aug 12 - 11:46 AM

That last post was from me, folks. I didn't realize I was logged out when I sent it.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Q
Date: 27 Aug 12 - 12:18 PM

Soros in 2016!


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Ebbie
Date: 27 Aug 12 - 12:37 PM

Little Hawk, I have a question: Let's say that you are correct in saying that 'Boss Hawg', the Illuminati, the big boys, are the final instigators and arbiters of whatever happens in American national politics. But surely that means that they control whatever happens internationally too, because when one looks into how-it-all-began, it is alleged that the Big Boys met and planned it all.

?


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Q
Date: 27 Aug 12 - 01:40 PM

Machiavelli, a few centuries ago, said a few things about how to control politics and business. "The Prince" and similar works are the "bible" for those who have the drive to be king of the castle.

The "big boys" are usually in control, and will remain so because the urge to dominate (survival of the fittest) is part of their genetic code.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Ebbie
Date: 27 Aug 12 - 03:00 PM

So, Q, you are agreeing with LH that the 'Big Boys' are controlling the world?


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Aug 12 - 03:41 PM

Ebbie, the Big Boys...meaning the biggest banks and corporations in the western world certainly are trying to control the whole world, simply in order to further enrich themselves and maintain their accustomed lifestyle and privileges...but I frankly think it's beyond their control. I think their plans will fail, not because there is any very organized response against those plans, but because those plans are insane and unworkable in the long run.

I think they will fail just like Imperial Rome failed, by overextending themselves and by losing their ability to manage or pay for the monstrous mess they've created.

This will be tough on just about everybody, but the world will go on. We'll all deal with it as best we can.

Their Ponzi scheme already collapsed in 2008, but they kicked the can a few more yards down the road with the bank bailouts...and ordinary people suffered as a consequence. They delayed the inevitable for a few more years, that's all.

Don't think that these people don't also compete against one another. They do. Occasionally they will even sacrifice one of their own as a gesture to placate an enraged public, but their great money game goes on regardless. It's all about the money. And the money is not real. We just pretend it is, because if we all stopped pretending, no one would know what to do. They had to finally stop pretending in Rome when they ran out of funds to pay their army and to buy resources, and the "barbarians" overran the (Western Roman) Empire. The Eastern Empire, being less vulnerable, struggled on for a few more centuries after that.

It's not all deep, dark, and mysterious...like the Hollywood image you summon up when you use the word "illuminati". It's not one circle of people around one table (at least I don't think so). It's simply a profit-based and completely ammoral business philosophy that rules the world of banks and big business, and does it through fiat money, and it's running out of time.

I suggest you read some articles about how Richard Nixon took the dollar off the gold standard in 1971. It used to be pegged at $35 per ounce of gold. Official value. Ever since 1944. Well, not after 1971. In only a few years gold (now floating freely against fiat dollars) had gone to $850 an ounce. In the last year it went to almost $2,000. Gold is worth exactly what it ever was...just like water or wheat or air are...but the dollar is worth a mere fraction of what it once was, because it's no longer officially backed by or redeemable in a set amount of anything real. It is not real money. It's just a piece of paper from a Federal Reserve printing press.

The richest people at the top of western society depend upon the maintenance of this giant Ponzi scheme of fiat money. That doesn't mean they all planned it once around some table in a hidden fortress somewhere...but it does mean that they have a common interest in maintaining the game as it presently exists and not having it collapse.

And that's all they're doing. It's not so dramatic as the term "illuminati" would suggest. In fact, it's very prosaic. Just plain old self-interest, that's all.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,nobody in particular
Date: 27 Aug 12 - 03:43 PM

The first time I was speechless, and could not believe that someone could be so ignorant, as to what is going on. The second time I was just laughing too hard, and hit the wrong key!

Whomever 'Ebbie' is talking about, (LH), is correct. It would serve you well to listen to what he's talking about, because you obviously don't know what you are! You are probably one of those naive loons, intoxicated on your aquired opinions, that believes a political party is going to 'fix it'! and how long have they been around 'fixing' it? Anything getting fixed? Ever asked yourself 'Why?'? Maybe it's just because politics are aimed at keeping you stupid and therefore disabled in addressing the world where the REAL controllers, are operating, what they are doing, and how they are doing it!

I've posted a link TWICE explaining the real problem,

Here, maybe a third time will be the charm!
When you get to the page, click ,'Watch film online'.
Maybe you might wise up.
And 'LH' post back using your real name, I'd like to read more of what you have to say.
Thank You


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,nobody in particular
Date: 27 Aug 12 - 03:48 PM

Never mind, I figured it out. 'LH' is 'Little Hawk'. (Am I correct?). We were both typing at the same time.
Hello. Nice to acquaint myself with someone else into reality!


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: pdq
Date: 27 Aug 12 - 04:18 PM

When all else fails, blame Richard Nixon. Funny nose, ya know...

From two sources:


"The Constitution requires US currency be minted in gold and silver.

Article 10: 'No state shall emit bills of credit, make any thing but gold and silver coin a tender in payment of debts, coin money.' The Founding Fathers knew that irresponsible govts print paper money, backed by nothing, overspend and devalue the currency, causing 'inflation", and destroying the economy. That has been happening for decades and is accelerating at a tremendous rate NOW.

When the govt began issuing paper money it was backed by real gold and silver.
In 1913, the Federal Reserve System was created by Congress; a private company, owned by member banks, and controlled by the bankers. The bank notes were redeemable for gold/silver.

In 1933, FDR stopped the minting of gold coins and paper money was no longer backed by and redeemable for - gold. You couldn't even own gold, that was illegal. You had to return it to the Treasury for paper money. But 'collectors' could keep their gold coins. But they were no longer usable currency...just like you can't go in a store today and buy bread with a gold coin! Federal Reserve Notes are not backed by, or redeemable for gold/silver.

The mint made silver coins through '64, then reduced the silver content to 50%, and then finally in 1970 silver coins ceased. This was due to inflation (we were warned it could happen by Thomas Jefferson, see first paragraph). In 1971, the govt ceased allowing foreign banks to redeem US dollars for gold. This was when the gold standard ceased.

And here:


"1933 or 1971, depending on how you view what 'gold standard' means...

'A true gold standard came to fruition in 1900 with the passage of the Gold Standard Act. The gold standard effectively came to an end in 1933 when President Franklin D. Roosevelt outlawed private gold ownership (except for the purposes of jewelery). The Bretton Woods System, enacted in 1946 created a system of fixed exchange rates that allowed governments to sell their gold to the United States treasury at the price of $35/ounce. 'The Bretton Woods system ended on August 15, 1971, when President Richard Nixon ended trading of gold at the fixed price of $35/ounce. At that point for the first time in history, formal links between the major world currencies and real commodities were severed'. The gold standard has not been used in any major economy since that time.'"


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Q
Date: 27 Aug 12 - 04:42 PM

I'm sorry I used the term "big boys," it makes me sound like I am in the same boat as LH and his views are naive in the extreme.

Those with the drive to dominate have led the world, since the development of covilization. They, as individuals or group, govern the direction of their fiefdom (country, institution, company, cadre), and in the process gain support and accumulate wealth to support their dominance.
New dominants are always evolving, and may displace old orders, but the most effective at any one time will control their fiefdoms and have strong influence on those in competition.

The do-called freedoms exercised by most of us are only as extensive as those in dominance permit.

(?Guest seems to be promoting the sale of an online blurb of some kind).


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,nobody in particular
Date: 27 Aug 12 - 05:11 PM

Ironic that your Constitution, which is supposed to be the supreme law of your country, says one thing, and certain Presidents just issue an order that changes that law, and no one is prosecuted for fraud! Bankers, Presidents, the mints, financial institutions, no one! Something is seriously wrong here, and it has damaged your country, and those of us on an international level, and NOTHING is done, except another election of another phoney, who appoints another phoney 'justice department'! Then some of you get all hot and bothered when 'your' particular candidate fails to gather strong support. Somehow, down deep, I think most people are not so numb and dumb, to sense that something is VERY VERY wrong
and they just vote so they can get your inane elections over with!

Right now, neither of your candidates are saying HOW they will fix anything. They just throw accusations out at each other, most of them not even true, Obama keeps bringing up EVERY petty thing he can to NOT address his neglect and failure to fix anything, and Romney says how concerned he is, and how the economy needs more jobs, but does not offer any plan! Neither does Obama, and you folks are just stuck with a couple of worthless figureheads! You might as well elect a plastic statue!!

I didn't even want to sucked into your worthless and deceptive politics!! Your failed policies of fraud and lies are going to take down most all of civilised countries, and the best you can come up with, is arguing about the colour of your candidate, and who is waging a 'war on women', letting people vote in your elections, who aren't even citizens, while allowing yourselves to print worthless fiat money, just to keep your citizens worthless and non-productive, just to buy their votes!! Stupidity has reached new heights!!

Why not letting your favourite candidates know that you will not vote for them, unless they release the information you want to know, and if it is another lie, you will see to it that they are impeached, and spend time in prison, for fraud and conspiracy, and that YOU mean business!
But you won't, because 'politics' has neutered you, and made your electorate impotent!

Congratulations, you've arrived! Need proof? Just read some of your posts!

Enough! This is the longest post that I was n!ever intending to write


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Aug 12 - 05:49 PM

Ya' know, the US has been here before and wiggled out... That was a little over a century ago... I can be done... I am not going to fall into the it-can't-be-done-syndrome... It must be done... We have no other choice but to fix this broken government... They said it couldn't be done last time... Actually, there were poeple who thought that if man were to go over 28 miles and hour in an automobile that it would kill him back then...

We will get thru this...

Hey, if it takes someone like Bill Gates to fund a 100 member group of randomly selected citizens to coime up with the systemic fixes so be it... It will get fixed, one way or another...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Ebbie
Date: 27 Aug 12 - 09:15 PM

"Enough! This is the longest post that I was n!ever intending to write"

Guest/Nobody I want to know, you are SUCH a charmer.

Little Hawk, the reason I asked in that manner is that in other posts- going WAY back - you have intimated a far different scenario. Does that mean that your opinions are evolving and that you are no longer quite as sure of yourself?


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Aug 12 - 09:37 PM

Not too sure but seems that no-one is some-one we all know well, trying to reinvent his or her self...

Just guessing...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Ebbie
Date: 27 Aug 12 - 11:27 PM

I know. Or if not, it seems every country has got 'em.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Sawzaw
Date: 28 Aug 12 - 08:45 AM

Still nobody here has the guts to say if the 4 richest people in the US deserve their wealth.

It smacks of intellectual dishonesty to me.

"We gonna get another 9/11 close to election time?"

"But I'm gonna go on record of predictin' another 9-11 event in just over a year becuase the Repubs will be in desperate need for one and if they are goina stand any chance of holding the White House, after this dismal 8 years of theivery and lies, they can't do it without another 9/11... Keep in mind that the week before 9/11 Bush had the lowest approval rating of any president since such polls have been taken....

So that's my prediction... Sad... but I'm sticken by it...

Bobert"


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 Aug 12 - 01:11 PM

I looked up some of the Richest People in America' and discovered that those who are single-digit billionaires sound positively pauperish. Maybe that is why they can never have enough.

http://www.forbes.com/forbes-400/list/


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 28 Aug 12 - 03:13 PM

Yeah, poor Ann Romney... Times got so tough once that she and Mitt had to cash in some of their stocks... Horrors... Pass the Kleeix...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Aug 12 - 07:43 PM

Yeah, Ebbie, I think my opinions are evolving. They've been evolving for as long as I can remember. I am always willing to consider a new angle on things.

Besides...I'm also aware that I don't know for sure about a lot of this stuff. How could I? I don't have access to all the relevant information...and I have to get that information from other people who also probably don't know for sure about a lot of the stuff they say.

Guest, nobody in particular - Yes, I am the one referred to in people's posts as LH. Cheers!

pdq - you are quite correct about FDR's 1933 actions in regards to making ownership of gold illegal, and also about the later elimination of silver coinage from circulation in the 1960s. That happened after John Kennedy was out of the picture. Those 2 actions, along with Nixon's 1971 termination of the Bretton-Woods version of the gold standard have turned the entire world's national currencies into worthless fiat money that is backed up by nothing real, and the bankers have used that circumstance along with fractional reserve lending to enrich themselves through what amounts to a gigantic Ponzi scheme. And who has paid for it? The general public has...through taxes levied to pay down (a portion of) the interest on the ever-growing national debt, and through inflation. This is particularly hard on old people, people on fixed incomes, poor people, and the rapidly eroding middle class. It's a bubble that must someday burst.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 28 Aug 12 - 07:49 PM

Having a bead, gold or sock doll backed currency wouldn't have changed any of the corruption, LH... It would just mean that everyone would have to build big secure building to store their beads, gold or sock dolls...

Guess again...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: pdq
Date: 28 Aug 12 - 07:54 PM

Thanks LH, I try to put a few facts out to aid the discussion, otherwise folks are just budgeoning each other with their respective opinions.

About Nixon, what was he supposed to do? Let the Russians buy all the gold in Fort Knox at an obsolete exchange rate? Much of what Russia has came from the US when it was $35 per ounce. It is now about $1800.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 28 Aug 12 - 08:07 PM

The reason why gold is $1800 an ounce is simple... The world is filled with Lyndon LaRouche thinkers who just have to have currency backed by something and they worry what they are going to do after the big asteroid hits Earth or the revolution comes to their town...

Bad news for the gold/bead worshipers...

It won't do them any good after the asteroid or revolution... Nope...

There is something called "paradox of value"... I'll lay it real simple... Man is in the desert and not had anything to drink in a couple days and about to give up when he comes to a guy with a little lemonaide stand... But the guy is into diversity so he sell both gold and lemonaide...

You pick...

All that glitter is not gold and even the stuff that is won't get you out of most jams that come along in life...

Might do better with baseball cards???

Me??? I'd use that spare $$$ to put solar panels on the roof so if the shit hits the fan I got electricity... Or a garden... Or, or...

Gold don't do anything more than beads or sock dolls...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Sawzaw
Date: 29 Aug 12 - 10:13 AM

Still no one here has the guts to say if the 4 richest people in America deserve their wealth because they are Democrats and to do so would violate Tribal Politics.

I believe they deserve it.

Paulson, Soros upped gold holdings last quarter

Hedge-fund managers John Paulson and George Soros boosted their gold holdings during the second quarter, a sign that some high-profile investors were still banking on higher prices for the precious metal despite its lackluster performance this year.

John Paulson's Paulson & Co. Inc. raised its stake in SPDR Gold Shares GLD -0.32% , the world's largest exchange-traded gold fund, by 26% during the three months ended June 30. Paulson & Co. held 21.8 million shares, valued at $3.3 billion at the end of June, according to a quarterly securities filing released late Tuesday.

The fund also increased its holdings of gold-mining companies, holding a combined 98 million shares, up 3.5% from the previous quarter and valued at $1.9 billion. Paulson's gold ETF and mining-company holdings together accounted for 44% of its U.S.-traded equity assets, from 33% the previous quarter.

Soros Fund Management LLC more than doubled its stake in SPDR Gold Shares during the three months ended June 30, according to a filing, to the highest level since the end of 2010.

The hedge fund held 884,400 shares, valued at $137.3 million at the end of June, from 319,550, or $51.8 million, the previous quarter.

Soros Fund nearly cashed out of gold during the first quarter of 2011, reducing its shares of SPDR Gold Shares by 98%, to a stake valued at less than $7 million. The fund continued to pare its position, to a low of 42,800 shares during the second quarter of 2011, before rebuilding its stake in the quarters that followed.

Benchmark gold futures fell 4% during the period covered by the funds' securities filings, as the European Central Bank and the U.S. Federal Reserve refrained from implementing new monetary-easing measures despite slowing global economic growth.

Easing policies can raise concerns about inflation down the line, drawing investors looking for a currency hedge into precious metals.

Through Tuesday's close, benchmark gold futures were up 1.4% in 2012, and down 15% from September's record high.

Subscribe to WSJ: http://online.wsj.com?mod=djnwires


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Ebbie
Date: 29 Aug 12 - 11:55 AM

I was going to make the point that designating anything as intrinsically valuable is only an agreed-upon fiction, that having the most marbles or shoes or hats will not keep anyone alive. Bobert said it better.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Aug 12 - 01:01 PM

Thanks, Eb... I had a super good economics professor... She taught both Econ 201 and 202... 201 was reasonable like 10:00 but 202 wasn't... I recall it being either an 8:00 or 9:00 class but I liked her so much I forced myslef to get up to get to it... Which wasn't easy as I was sometimes playing music the night before... Heck of a teacher...

I'd love to hear what she has to say about today's Republican ideas on the economy... They would not be flattering...

Oh, and BTW... I didn't attend one of those "Eastern pointy headed latte sippin' Volvo drivein'" schools... This was Richmond, Va. at a state supported intercity school...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Aug 12 - 04:02 AM

You're really not following my reasoning on this money thing, Ebbie and Bobert. Everything in this world that is real has an intrinsic value. All metals have some intrinsic value, because they are real...and they can be used for various practical purposes. The reason that gold is more valuable than most other metals is:

1. it doesn't oxidize or tarnish...it is impervious to aging. That's very important!
2. it's very beautiful in appearance
3. it's highly malleable (workable), and that makes it very useful for a number of purposes, both decorative and practical
4. it's a superb conductor
5. it's relatively rare and quite hard to acquire...and anything desirable (to anyone) that is rare and hard to acquire has a correspondingly high value just for that reason alone.

All of the above factors combine to make it historically the most sought-after metal for as long as we have had a recorded history.

Other metals have an intrinsic value too, although most of them are worth a lot less than gold....partly because they're a lot easier to acquire, a lot more common, less malleable, and not nearly as attractive in appearance...and they oxidize (tarnish)!

All other REAL things also have an intrinsic value. Wood is intrinsically valuable. Soil is intrinsically valuable. Water is intrinsically valuable. Stone and sand are intrinsically valuable.   Living things are intrinsically valuable. Air is intrinsically valuable. Clothing and other manufactured goods are intrinsically valuable. Salt and sugar are intrinsically valuable (they served as currency in some past civilizations). Even manure is intrinsically valuable...as fertilizer.

Paper money....unless it is backed by a set and guaranteed amount of something real per unit of money is NOT intrinsically valuable...unless you use it, as the Lakota did after Custer's demise....to start fires with! ;-) And in that case it's still worth virtually nothing, but at least you can burn it. You sure as hell can't do much else with it the moment people stop believing it has value. And they have many times stopped believing just that when a paper currency collapsed. They have NEVER stopped believing gold or silver were valuable.

The moment the USA did 2 things: took the dollar off the gold standard and replaced silver certificates with federal reserve notes, the dollar became a symbolic piece of paper backed by NOTHING intrinsically valuable whatsoever, it became Monopoly money, and it has dramatically declined in purchashing power ever since.

That has enriched the bankers, because it is they who create almost all the money that's out there, either in the form of debt...or when the Fed prints its federal reserve notes. The Fed is a privately owned bank.

How can you not understand the difference between a paper bill that is not legally convertible to a set amount of something REAL and one that is????

I think you're just plain being stubborn and obstinate on this matter. Of course, you gotta do that to remain "right"...right? So why should I be surprised? ;-) Most people would rather be right than be reasonable...oh, but I forgot...most people think they ARE reasonable? Right?

Hell, then we're all geniuses. It's always the other guy that's wrong, right?

Why am I even bothering to discuss it with you? It won't do me any good. I guess I must not be able to resist.

And why will you do the same? For the very same reason. You just can't stop yourselves from talking. Same as me.

And that describes everyone here. A bunch of silly people who talk...and talk...and talk....and talk....and they'll keep doing it till the power fails or till they die.

Whichever happens first.

And they'll all be RIGHT every time...dead right. Maybe they'll put that on all of our tombstones when we're gone. "He was right every time. She was right every time. And now they're both dead."


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Sawzaw
Date: 30 Aug 12 - 05:26 AM

"Bogus polling... Any college Stats instructor would point that out right away..."

The person that made this assertion has not backed up his assertion or admitted that he was wrong.

Meanwhile major colleges, universities newspapers and polling organization use the same questions and I have backed up that assertion.

I am courteously asking for that person to back up his assertion with something other than his own claims and opinions.

Forums prefer a premise of open and free discussion and often adopt de facto standards. Most common topics on forums include questions, comparisons, polls of opinion as well as debates. It is not uncommon for nonsense or unsocial behavior to sprout as people lose temper, especially if the topic is controversial. Poor understanding of differences in values of the participants is a common problem on forums. Because replies to a topic are often worded aimed at someone's point of view, discussion will usually go slightly off into several directions as people question each others' validity, sources and so on. Circular discussion and ambiguity in replies can extend for several tens of posts of a thread eventually ending when everyone gives up or attention spans waver and a more interesting subject takes over. It is not uncommon for debate to end in ad hominem attacks.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Aug 12 - 07:54 AM

LH

Your currency ideas are not realistic for the a modern global economy...

No reason for me to restate my entire arguments again as that will save you from going thru yours...

But I will say that you are in good company... Your arguments are the same as Lyndon LaRouche's... Except he ended his by accusing Nancy Reagan of running the American drug cartel... LOL...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Sawzaw
Date: 30 Aug 12 - 09:12 AM

So a man is dying of thirst and he comes across a lemonade stand with one glass left. All he has is baseball cards and sock dolls. The another dying man arrives with some gold. Which one gets the lemonade?

I learned how to spell lemonade in the 4th grade. Bobert did not attend. Too busy tokin' out behind the Gym.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Ebbie
Date: 30 Aug 12 - 01:04 PM

I think your anecdote fails on several levels, SZ. (I might add that I also marvel at the tenacity of these dying men.)


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Aug 12 - 02:27 PM

Don't play the guilt by (imagined) association card on me, Bobert. You do that every time you mention Lyndon LaRouche, one of your favorite whipping boys or monsters under the bed. I have no association with Lyndon LaRouche, he isn't my hero, I never heard of him till you brought him up various times in regards to something I had posted about monetary policy. Lots of other people agree that currency should be backed up by and redeemable in an official amount of something real...not just Mr LaRouche.

I looked him up and found that I agree with him about some things....and I disagree with him about others. And there are others where I just don't know what I think about it.

I could say that about almost anybody. For you to invoke his name to me as if I subscribed to his entire philosophy is as unhelpful as if I were to invoke somebody else's name that way in regards to you. It implies that he and I are alike. Not necessarily so.

Backing up the dollar with gold and silver was considered "realistic" for a very looooong time. And it worked. What makes you think it's unrealistic to do it now?

I'll tell you why they won't do it. Because they have created trillions of dollars out of thin air just to enrich themselves and maintain a tottering pyramid scheme a little longer....and NO amount of real stuff could be found to back it up, because they've basically done what a counterfeiter does with a printing press. They created MONEY without doing a lick of actual work to earn it. That makes it worthless. It takes work to mine and refine gold and silver, and that's why a currency that's redeemable in set amounts of those metals is automatically worth what it claims to be worth.

You're making excuses for a criminal financial system and saying "there's no other way to do it". That's what they say too. But they're rich. And you're not. Cos YOU don't have the Fed's printing press! ;-) If you did, you could buy all the pot in West Virginia...for the time being.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Aug 12 - 03:01 PM

As for gold...I've never seen a living adult human being who didn't take that stuff seriously when you showed it to them...or they held it in their hand. But I have heard of people burning paper money...or taking an entire shopping bag full of it just to buy a loaf of bread. That's what happens when the pyramid scheme of unbacked and grossly inflated paper money collapses and the bubble bursts. It has happened in many, many places. It can happen here too.

Now, gold won't do you any good when you're on the deck of the sinking Titanic....nor will paper money at that point...but it'll do you much good if you get rescued, just as soon as you set foot on the next ship or on the dock.

We can all find some extreme circumstance in life where an exchangeable and normally valuable commodity is suddenly worth nothing. Doesn't disprove the fact that a dollar backed by something real is far stronger than a dollar backed by nothing but itself and the word of those who printed it.

By the way, since all national currencies in the world are now unbacked fiat money...everyone is vulnerable this time. Not just one nation this time. Everyone.

Part of what worries me is that nations facing financial ruin will often stumble into a war as a way of supposedly "solving the problem". That's like solving a small kitchen fire by throwing a gallon of gasoline on it.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Ebbie
Date: 30 Aug 12 - 03:20 PM

I do understand the implications of what you are saying, Little Hawk, but to my mind utilizing gold or other metal as the measurement of wealth is a human construct. There was allegedly a time when beads were the standard among Native Americans. In another region and a different era, a pile of furs was the symbol of prosperity (I know. I know- because the furs implied the ability to turn them into real wealth, meaning gold). In future, wealth may be measured by access to water.   My point is that the human construct was and is dependent upon circumstance and culture.

Little Hawk: "By the way, since all national currencies in the world are now unbacked fiat money...everyone is vulnerable this time. Not just one nation this time. Everyone."

Granted. At the same time, does that not imply the possibility of a new wealth measurement?

I just thought of 'scrip', an IOU, a piece of paper that acknowledges the debt of the payer to the payee, a system that is vulnerable to abuse in the wrong hands but that has worked for centuries.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Aug 12 - 04:22 PM

Thanks for giving what I said some serious thought, Ebbie.

I'd have no problem with beads being seen as a common medium of exchange in a culture. It takes skilled work to make beads...specially really attractive beads. A better made bead, one made out of superior material, is clearly worth more than a poorly made bead. Again, one is basically paying for the visible qualities, the utility, the durability, and the amount of work required to produce the item.

It took a lot of work to harvest furs too, so I have no problem with them being a medium of exchange in a hunting and gathering culture...providing the animal species don't get wiped out in the process.

You are right that "the human construct was and is dependent upon circumstance and culture." Absolutely.

The thing that worries me about printing an unbacked currency (or creating it through loans, meaning in the form of debt and interest) is this: it takes no real work to create it. Any amount of if can be instantly created. This opens the door to graft and corruption on a simply incredible scale by those few who do create it.

Yes, we could opt for a new form of wealth measurement. It need not be silver or gold. It need not be paper money. It should be something real, though...meaning something that is tactile, measureable, and which requires work to create, harvest, etc. If so, then it's really worth something.

One reason precious metals have served very well in the past is that they are compact, durable, attractive, and require a great deal of work to be done in their discovery, mining, and refining. The effort expended results in a high value for the product. This is also true with diamonds and precious stones, but they're not as conveniently workable into various shapes as metals are.

I can easily see where pure drinking water could become the dominant medium of exchange for some future society. You wouldn't carry it in your pocket, though. ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Aug 12 - 04:26 PM

Well said, Eb... The water analogy was the one I was trying to make with the "paradox of value" concept...

Now listen LH, I didn't say that you and Lyndon LaRouche are two peas in a pod... I said that your ideas on having a gold standard are similar to those held by Lyndon LaRouche...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Aug 12 - 04:27 PM

Sawzaw - You've been asking "if the 4 richest people in America deserve their wealth"...

I haven't given you an answer to that because:

I don't know.

And I'm not sure how I would go about finding out, assuming I could spare the time...and had sufficient interest to bother doing so. ;-)

Hell, I don't even know if I or the guy next door "deserve" our present levels of wealth. It's a hard thing to calculate.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Aug 12 - 04:35 PM

You are forgiven, Bobert. ;-) Now, if you would just take back that "poopflinging" stuff, Chongo might forgive you too.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Aug 12 - 04:49 PM

I don't think having Chongz forgive me would do either of much good, LH... Might wreck our relationship...

B;~)


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Elmore
Date: 30 Aug 12 - 06:46 PM

As through this wold you wander you see lots of funny men.Some will rob you with a six gun, some with a fountain pen. -W.W. Guthrie.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Ebbie
Date: 30 Aug 12 - 10:06 PM

Sawzaw reiterates his question: "Still no one here has the guts to say if the 4 richest people in America deserve their wealth because they are Democrats and to do so would violate Tribal Politics."

It led me to wonder why the figure was four so I looked around.

The first ten (10) are listed as:

Bill Gates
Warren Buffet
Larry Ellison
Charles Koch
David Koch
Christy Walton
George Soros
Sheldon Adelson
Jim Walton
Alice Walton

Of those 10 one can safely say that at least 6 of them are NOT Democrats.

As for the FOUR richest Americans listed by Forbes, three are clearly Democrats; the fourth is clearly NOT. So where does one find your list, SZ?


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 31 Aug 12 - 10:31 AM

It's interesting to compare three of the top 10, Eb... Looks what Bill gates is doing with his money and what the Kochs are doing with theirs... Gates uses his pro-actively to promote pro-human, pro-Earth issues while...

...the Koch brothers re-actively use theirs to promote anti-human and anti-Earth agendas...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 Aug 12 - 10:42 AM

What about the four richest chimps in America? Do they deserve their wealth?

Cheetah comes to mind...but the poor guy died a couple of years ago. If there's a Heaven and a Hell (in the traditional sense), God will have sorted out that one by now, I guess. ;-)

****

Sawzaw is quite right about one thing: his point about "Tribal Politics" on this website. It's an obvious problem here and it always has been. For instance, if a Republican president had enacted the NDAA, the Democratic tribe here would be enraged about it...but Obama did it, so hardly a peep is uttered in protest. Selective blindness. Ditto for half the other stuff Obama has done once in office. If Bush had done the very same things, he'd be damned for it by most people here.

This does not, however, answer my question about the 4 richest chimps.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,nobody in particular
Date: 31 Aug 12 - 02:53 PM

Sorry it took me so long to get back with you, but arguing with 'obstinate and stubborn' people is not at the top of my list of things to do, but anyway, I will reply to a couple of comments.

First, I'd like to address Ebbie's comment about my lack of 'charm'.
What does 'charm' have to do with the truthfulness of a statement?
'Charm' is for smooth-talkers, con men, used car salesmen, attorneys, barristers, politicians, and anyone who is engaged in using a 'charming' pitch to hustle you out of your assumed common sense!

The truth, in contrast, may come out crude or even brutal, but it isn't being told to you, to deceive you, nor dishonour your common sense, will, or productivity, by hustling you out of any of them. In essence, the fact I was, and am telling you the truth, I am assuming that you would feel honoured that someone is recognising, that you would have common sense within you, and would feel complimented, that you aren't so shallow, as to be swayed by 'charm', in place of the plain truth.
Am I wrong, here?

Bobert, you seem to be enamoured, by the wonderfulness of Bill Gates. So, here is a link about Bill Gates, to bolster your admiration of him!

First look at this one, ony about 3 minutes long, watch till the end


Now look at this one, and take note of the political endorsement under video!

Be Charmed!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,nobody in particular
Date: 31 Aug 12 - 04:31 PM

58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
42% Of Democrats Say they deserve the same wealth
They just don't want to work for it,
They just FEEL That they deserve it!!


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 31 Aug 12 - 04:52 PM

Seemed to be a disconnect in logic there... I mean, either that or Gates had a major senior moment... I suspect that the clip is either doctored or taken out of context... In other words, I smell a Koch-rat here... Bill Gates isn't that disconnected... Pehaps you would provide us with the full text of his speech...

As for Democrats not wanting to work for a living... That, my firnd, falls right into the bullseye of the BIG LIE... Every time a major company has a job fair their are people lined up around the block trying to get them... For your BIG LIE to be true then you would have us believe that all those people are Republcians??? Here's what you do... Next time there is one of these job fairs take you ignorant self to it and ask people which party they belong to... Then report back...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,nobody in particular
Date: 31 Aug 12 - 05:15 PM

Maybe there is no disconnect nor doctored piece. Maybe you are just one of those die-hard, 'obstinate and stubborn' people, spoken of before!
Maybe you can't see the forest for the trees! Maybe you've been hoodwinked, and are too filled with false pride to admit it. Maybe people like you are the reason your phoney, crooked politicians keep getting away with destroying your country!

Maybe being 'obstinate and stubborn' is just a way of rationalising not caring at all! Maybe your whole political system has counted on people like you, to accomplish the deceptive practises that will take away your freedoms and way of life, for their own purposes! Maybe you could be spending your time getting active in taking down the real enemies of your country, and the free world's! Maybe you are just too lazy to care.

I know, it takes too much effort!


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 31 Aug 12 - 05:47 PM

Well, if you understand basic sentence structure and logic the sentence doesn't make any sense and if that is truly what Bill Gates thinks then there should be multiple sources...

As for hood winked, pal... Your posts are not only unoriginal but have hoodwinked, i.e. right winged propaganda dripping of them, down the table legs, onto the floor, out the door, down of the driveway and all they way to the storm sewer down the street...

Try thinking before submitting...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: pdq
Date: 31 Aug 12 - 06:06 PM

You get a better idea if you make that the TOP 20 Richest Americans.

As far as I can see, there are 4 Waltons (WalMart, inherited) and 2 Kochs (Combination, both work very hard).

After that, the remaining 14 seem to all be Democrats, including extremist George Soros and nutcase Michael Bluumberg.

If your eyeballs don't glaze over, here they are:


      No. 1 Bill Gates

Net Worth:$61 billion – As of March 2012
Source of Wealth: Microsoft, self-made , Age: 56 , Citizenship: U.S.

      No. 2 Warren Buffett

Net Worth:$44 billion – As of March 2012
Source of Wealth: Berkshire Hathaway, self-made , Age: 81 , Citizenship: U.S.

      No. 3 Larry Ellison

Net Worth:$36 billion – As of March 2012
Source of Wealth: Oracle, self-made , Age: 67 , Citizenship: U.S.

    No. 4 Christy Walton & family

Net Worth:$25.3 billion – As of March 2012
Source of Wealth: Walmart, inherited , Age: 57 , Citizenship: U.S.

      No. 5 Charles Koch (tie)

Net Worth:$25 billion – As of March 2012
Source of Wealth: Diversified, inherited and growing , Age: 76, Citizenship: United States

      No. 5 David Koch (tie)

Net Worth:$25 billion – As of March 2012
Source of Wealth: Diversified, inherited and growing , Age: 71 , Citizenship: United States

      No. 7 Sheldon Adelson

Net Worth:$24.9 billion – As of March 2012
Source of Wealth: Casinos, self-made , Age: 78 , Citizenship: United States

    No. 8 Jim Walton

Net Worth:$23.7 billion – As of March 2012
Source of Wealth: Walmart, inherited , Age: 64 , Citizenship: United States

      No. 9 Alice Walton

Net Worth:$23.3 billion – As of March 2012
Source of Wealth: Walmart, inherited , Age: 62 , Citizenship: United States

      No. 10 R. Robson Walton

Net Worth:$23.1 billion – As of March 2012
Source of Wealth: Walmart, inherited , Age: 68 , Citizenship: United States

      No. 11 Michael Bloomberg

Net Worth:$22 billion – As of March 2012
Source of Wealth: Bloomberg LP, self-made , Age: 70 , Citizenship: U.S.

      No. 12 George Soros

Net Worth:$20 billion – As of March 2012
Source of Wealth: Hedge Funds, self-made , Age: 81 , Citizenship: U.S.

      No. 13 Sergey Brin

Net Worth:$18.7 billion – As of March 2012
Source of Wealth: Google, self-made , Age: 38 , Citizenship: U.S.

    No. 14 Larry Page

Net Worth:$18.7 billion – As of March 2012
Source of Wealth: Google, self-made , Age: 39 , Citizenship: U.S.

    No. 15 Jeff Bezos

Net Worth:$18.4 billion – As of March 2012
Source of Wealth: Amazon.com, self-made , Age: 48, Citizenship: United States

    No. 16 Mark Zuckerberg

Net Worth:$17.5 billion – As of March 2012
Source of Wealth: Facebook, self-made , Age: 28, Citizenship: United States

    No. 17 Michael Dell

Net Worth:$15.9 billion – As of March 2012
Source of Wealth: Dell, self-made , Age: 47, Citizenship: United States

      No. 18 Steve Ballmer

Net Worth:$15.7 billion – As of March 2012
Source of Wealth: Microsoft, self-made, Age: 56 , Citizenship: United States

      No. 19 Phil Knight

Net Worth:$14.4 billion – As of March 2012
Source of Wealth: Nike, self-made , Age: 74 , Citizenship: United States

      No. 20 Paul Allen

Net Worth:$14.2 billion – As of March 2012
Source of Wealth: Microsoft, investments, self-made, Age: 59 , Citizenship: United States


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Sawzaw
Date: 31 Aug 12 - 06:24 PM

Ebbie:

Why you did stop at the first 10? Was that what it took to prove your point?

The combined wealth of the Democrats is 152.2 billion.

The combined wealth of the Republicans is 138.8 billion.

The obvious point is that more of the wealth held by the top 10 richest people is held by Democrats.

You still don't have the guts to answer the question because it would violate tribal politics.

Other than that, you are a breath of fresh air.

For another inkling about evil rich people, who is worth what in congress.

1. $290.5 million: Rep. Michael McCall (R-TX)
2. $198.8 million: Sen. John Kerry (D-MA)
3. $140.6 million: Rep. Darrell Issa (R-CA)
4. $91.1 million: Rep. Jared Polis (D-CO)
5. $85.9 million: Sen. Mark Warner (D-VA)
6. $83.1 million: Sen. Jay Rockefeller (D-WV)
7. $80.1 million: Sen. Richard Blumenthal (D-CT)
8. $56.9 million: Sen. Frank Lautenberg (D-NJ)
9. $47.2 million: Sen. Diane Feinstein (D-CA)
10. $36.7 million: Rep. Jim Renacci (R-OH)

Democrats 643.1 million
Republicans 467.7 million

Do the ten richest members of congress deserve their wealth?

___strongly agree

___somewhat agree

___somewhat disagree

___strongly disagree


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: pdq
Date: 31 Aug 12 - 06:26 PM

OK, Sheldon Adelson is a Republican donor.

That make$ the count 13 Dems and 7 Republicans in the TOP 20 Richest Americans.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 31 Aug 12 - 07:00 PM

Problem is that, as we are seeing, the Repubs are more intent on buying the election as their Super PACS make Obama's look like chump change...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: pdq
Date: 31 Aug 12 - 07:13 PM

In 2004, George W. Bush and his backers spent $300 million and were successful.

In 2008, just four short years later, Obama & Co. spent over $800 million. That does not include free "volunteer" time "donated" by the union boys. That type of help the Republicans have to pay for.

So, which candidate "bought" the election?


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Sawzaw
Date: 31 Aug 12 - 08:23 PM

Seiu's Acorn works cheap. They don't even pay minimum wages much less union scale. They bust heads for free.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Sep 12 - 11:28 AM

Anyone who can't see that BOTH the Democratic and Republican parties are owned, lock stock and barrel, by the rich in the USA has been blinded by partisan fervor...or as Sawzaw puts it: Tribal Politics.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Sep 12 - 11:55 AM

I don't give a rat's ass about that, LH... What I care about right now - as in today - stopping the radical right from trashing the New deal... Once that is done then I will go back to singing your worn out song... You apathy is absolutely amazing...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Sep 12 - 12:56 PM

SZ:
31 Aug 12 - 06:24 PM

Why you did stop at the first 10? Was that what it took to prove your point?

I took the 10 from a list of 400 people. It seemed a logical stopping point. Did you want me to list 400 people? More to the point, why did you stop with four?

SZ: The combined wealth of the Democrats is 152.2 billion.
The combined wealth of the Republicans is 138.8 billion.
The obvious point is that more of the wealth held by the top 10 richest people is held by Democrats.

We were not speaking of the total wealth in numbers, but of the numbers of people.

SZ: You still don't have the guts to answer the question because it would violate tribal politics.

I don't try to answer your question (Do the rich deserve their wealth?) because I have no idea how to answer such a blanket construct. Some inherited their wealth,i.e. they did not earn it and therefore do not deserve it. Some inherited their wealth, added to it and used it in humanitarian efforts. OK, perhaps they deserve it. Some married into it - do they deserve it? I don't know. Frankly, I think it is a stupid question. (I fail to see in what *guts* are involved.)

As for Bill Gates' statement, I think it is unfortunate that he didn't develop the thought further, because every right wing out there is flapping. It is apparent what he was actually saying.

"In terms of giving, Gates did a 180-degree turn. Rather than prevent births, he would aim his billions at saving the kids already born. "We moved pretty heavily into vaccines once we understood that," says Gates.
"He could have focused on clinics and doctors, but that doesn't scale. "The magic tool of health intervention is the vaccine, because they can be made very inexpensively," he says. "We had to choose what the most impactful thing to give would be—not just money, but our time, energy, voice." Melinda, his partner in all things philanthropic, echoes that thought: "Where's the place you can have the biggest impact with the money? Where can you save the very most lives with those resources?"

What Gates Clearly Meant


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Sawzaw
Date: 01 Sep 12 - 01:07 PM

Did the New Deal come before or after the internment [concentration] camps, a Bushesque violation of the writ of Habeas Corpus like Gitmo?

In 1988, Congress passed and President Ronald Reagan signed legislation which apologized for the internment on behalf of the U.S. government. The legislation said that government actions were based on "race prejudice, war hysteria, and a failure of political leadership". The U.S. government eventually disbursed more than $1.6 billion in reparations to Japanese Americans who had been interned and their heirs.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Sep 12 - 04:33 PM

Whaddya mean..."apathy", Bobertz???? I filled the bird feeders yesterday, I washed the dishes this morning, and I can't vote in your damned USA election anyway! ;-) So whaddya want from me?

Just admit that Big Corporate Money runs both those parties, Bobertz. That doesn't mean I'm tellin' you not to vote for the bought candidate and the bought party that you like the best. After all, what other choice have you really got? I don't see any procedural alternative available right now other than moving to another country or launching a one-man revolution, in which case you would surely fail...and they'd take away yer Wes Ginny slide rule and probably waterboard you.

If yer nice enuff to Chongo, though, he might give you a presidential pardon...after he gets elected, I mean.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Ebbie
Date: 01 Sep 12 - 05:19 PM

Guest at 12:56 was me.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Sep 12 - 05:21 PM

Here's what I want from you, LYH... I want you to recognize yourself in the following saying; "The mind is like a parachute... Works best when it is open"... You refuse to accept the fact that you are propagating Republican PR propaganda... You refuse to see that, unlike most other years, that the radical right is exerting itself on the population... They are more than just talk... They have corralled enough power so that they are close to being able to achieve the 70 year old Republican goal of putting a stake thru the heart of the New Deal... With the government teaming up with Boss Hog in busting unions over the last 30 years the New Deal is about all there is left to keep the bottom half of the population (in terms on income) from being homeless...

So, yeah, quit with the 2000 Nader fight song... It was relevant then but no more... It was a new song yesterday, it's an old song now...

As for you, Sawz... You are grasping at straws and flailing... You are so delusional and downright dishonest in taking things out of context that, geeze, there's really nothing worth responding to... Sorry... Guess again...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,nobody in particular
Date: 01 Sep 12 - 06:22 PM

So what you are trying to say, (but might not recognise it) is, and this is from your lists, that the billionaire business moguls, and the millionaire Senators and Congressmen from either or both parties, have you convinced that they are representing you?

AS P.T. Barnum precisely said it, "There's a sucker born every minute"!

And Mr.Bobert, my sentence structure is quite fine. I suggest you not use that as subterfuge to avoid factual dialogue.

It speaks ill of your position, and gives the impression that your intellectual processes are impotent!

(Let the mind lead, and the body will follow!!)


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Sep 12 - 07:31 PM

My mind is open, Bobert. See...I do dread the thought of the Republicans getting elected, because they aren't even ashamed of destroying the remnants of the New Deal that you have left. They'd do it with delight. The Democrats, on the other hand, would do it more stealthily...by degrees...because their voting base expects them to preserve it. They'd pretend not to be doing...but still do it anyway, mainly for financial reasons that are overwhelming the system, and that's because of levels of debt that simply cannot be maintained.

The only reason you think I'm parroting Republican Party line is because I do criticize the Democratic Party for its various failings as well as criticizing the Republicans for theirs. I don't let the Democrats off the hook just because they happen NOT to be Republicans, and that's what you do, as far as I can see.

But I can understand why! You're living down there. You fear what the Republicans would do once in office. Well, so do I! So does most of the world (except Israel).

I'd rather see the Democrats in office. How many times have I said that? Many. But that will not stop me from criticizing a Democratic administration when it does things in both domestic and foreign policy that I deeply disagree with. I'm not for one moment agreeing with the Republicans or their propaganda, which is simply opportunistic hyperbold in most cases. I'm just disagreeing with some specific things Obama has done, regardless of the Republicans. If in office, they'd have done the same in some cases...and probably even worse in others.

I expect BOTH of them to trash the New Deal, the Republicans with gusto and pride, the Democrats very quietly, like thieves in the night.

I could hardly be parroting Republican line, Bobert, because I disagree with almost everything they stand for in terms of their social philosophy. I do agree with Ron Paul on USA foreign policy and on the Fed...I think he's almost the only American politician who has taken an honest and meaningful stand on those (though Kucinich has too)...but the mainstream Republican Party hates Ron Paul, is embarrassed by what he says, treats him like the "crazy uncle" in the family, and wishes he would go away....and the corporate mass media talk about him as little as they possibly can so his message will not get much public exposure. That shows me how scared they are of what he's saying.

There are a lot of Republicans who agree with Ron Paul, Bobert, but they're only a minority within their party. Many of them will NOT vote at all in the coming election because of how badly the party has shut out Ron Paul, and some of them may even vote for Obama. Pin your hopes on that. It's a big help to Obama. There are a significant number of Republicans who completely disagree with the direction their party has gone in.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Sep 12 - 07:54 PM

No, LH, it isn't because you disagree with the Dems... I do, too... I will be marching tomorrow with the Occupy movement here in Charlotte to tell the Dems that we expect more... The reason why I disagree with you is because you are to quick to take up the "language" that the Republicans want you to use in saying that both parties are the same... I also disagree with you that the Dems are out to stelthly destroy the New Deal... It and civil rights represent their entire success story over the last 100 years... You destroy either and you lose your support, your donors, your future...

Please keep your posts more like your last one and less like GfinS, Sawz and the other Obama haters here... Ihey are all singing way off key and promoting Republican PR BS...

Yo, nobody,

Please furnish us a complete text of Gates speech... Something is real fishy with the video...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Sep 12 - 08:21 PM

Well, good for you, Bobert. I'm glad you're helping the Occupy movement keep the pressure up on the people in high places.

I am a bit puzzled at your reiteration that the Republicans want people to think both parties are the same...cos they sure don't think that way themselves! They think the Democrats are radically different from the Republicans, and they never stop saying so. Seems to me that both parties would feel quite threatened by anyone who said they are essentially the same. It strikes at the heart of the game they are playing, which is to polarize people as much as they possibly can.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Sep 12 - 08:51 PM

For the 10th time... It gives them cover for very bad behavior:

1. Sending thugs to disrupt the recount in Florida in 2000...

2. Sending thugs to harass people trying to participate in town hall meetings...

3. Allowing people to yell "Hang him" in relationship to Obama at Sarah Palin rallies... Never spoke up...

4. Representative Wilson yelling "You lie" at Obama during the State of the Union Adress and being rewarded with million$$$ in re-election money...

5. "Hell no, we won't"...

6. "Our only goal is to make Obama a one term president"....

7. etc.

8. etc...

9. etc...

10 thru 1000. etc, etc. etc...

Come on, LH... You ain't that dense... The Repubs ahve behaved very badly and they need as many folks, like you, as they can to parrot their PR bullshit that both parties are this or that... No they aren't... One party is very ill-behaved...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Sep 12 - 09:07 PM

BTW, LH.... I don't know if you are familiar with the American Enterprise Institute but it is a Republican think tank... One of its members, Thomas E. Mann joined up with a meber from the Brookings Institute, a Dem leaning think tank, Norman Ornstein and together thay examined the things I have just posted and wrote a book entitled, "It's Even Worse than it Looks: How the American Constitutional System Collided with the New Politics of Extremism"...

Together theywrote an op-ed that appeared in the April 27th edition of the 'Washington Post" entitled, "Lets jst say it: the Republicans are the problem"...

Everything I have pointed out, including your parroting of Republican talking points is not out of my imagination... It is founded in truth... No not the truths of 1996 or 2000 but today's truthts... Maybe you need to read more and type less... No offense but it seems that you are not up to speed or paying attention...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Sep 12 - 10:23 PM

I know the Republicans do all kinds of nasty stuff, Bobert. I just don't get how normal political criticism of a Democratic administration from people who are in no way allied TO Republicans equates to things like Republicans sending thugs somewhere to disrupt something.

How many Republicans do you think are reading my comments anyway? Seems to me that there are very few of them on this forum. Am I supposed to be afraid to criticize things Obama does because it might make some Republicans feel happy? A Republican who hates Obama doesn't need me to convince him of anything...his mind's already made up.

Anyway...as I've said time and time again...it's the administration that's in power whose policies I am most concerned about if I am objecting to American policy. When Bush was in power, I was very concerned about him and Cheney and the rest of them and I talked about that. They had the power. Now Obama and his people are in power, and it's them I'm concerned about, cos THEY have the power right now.

I'm criticizing the US government policy itself, Bobert, not engaging in a partisan dogfight between your two political parties. I think that's why we're having trouble understanding each other's point of view. You're fighting (for one side in) an election campaign. I'm not. I'm criticizing a national policy.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Sep 12 - 10:34 PM

Ya' know3,,, It doesn't matter how many folks read yer stuff, LH... What matters is that I take the time to explain to intelligent people how they are being used...

If you think, as the authors of the piece I have referenced, that the Republicans are the problem and sing the "Both Sides Boogie" here then you may be singing it elsewhere... It's dangerous when people with intelligence find themselves parroting propaganda... Hey, if I get you to see it then, even though you don't vote, you won't continue to parrot it here...

Small step??? Yup... We gotta change one mind at a time... Yours is in need a cleaning...

I mean no offense...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 02 Sep 12 - 06:37 AM

""Now Obama and his people are in power, and it's them I'm concerned about, cos THEY have the power right now.""

It has obviously escaped your eagle eyed attention, LH, that the above statement isn't within a thousand miles of being true.

They were the people in power initially but, for the majority of this term of office, the republicans have been in power.....the power to prevent!

If you don't see the difference between a party trying to govern in the interests of their country, and a party (due to very stupid voting rules) able and eager to prevent any successful action, purely in the interests, not of the nation, but of the party, then perhaps it is your perspective which is needing re-adjustment.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Sawzaw
Date: 02 Sep 12 - 08:10 AM

"I took the 10 from a list of 400 people. It seemed a logical stopping point. Did you want me to list 400 people? More to the point, why did you stop with four?"

Four seemed logical to me. If you want to do 400 Fine.

But you still don't have the guts to answer the question. You want to distract in another direction and make Ad Hominem attacks.

bOBERT ATTEMP


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Sawzaw
Date: 02 Sep 12 - 08:19 AM

Bobert attempted to claim that somewhat agree and somewhat disagree meant the same thing and the poll in the original post was therefore bogus.

Then when he realizes he was wrong, he tries to change the subject instead of acting like a man and admitting he was wrong.

Also when you criticize Bobert, he claims it is totally unfair but at the same time he believes he can criticize any one for anything. He can hand it out but he cannot take it.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Sep 12 - 09:00 AM

Go enroll in a Stats course at yer local community college, Sawz... All you are doing is repeating your ignorance...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Sep 12 - 12:40 PM

Me: 12:56
I don't try to answer your question (Do the rich deserve their wealth?) because I have no idea how to answer such a blanket construct. Some inherited their wealth,i.e. they did not earn it and therefore do not deserve it. Some inherited their wealth, added to it and used it in humanitarian efforts. OK, perhaps they deserve it. Some married into it - do they deserve it? I don't know. Frankly, I think it is a stupid question. (I fail to see in what (way) *guts* are involved.)

SZ: 8:10 But you still don't have the guts to answer the question. You want to distract in another direction and make Ad Hominem attacks.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Sawzaw
Date: 02 Sep 12 - 01:10 PM

I can answer the question. The rich deserve their wealth.

Should there be a government agency to decide who deserves what?


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Sep 12 - 02:21 PM

Don and Bobert - It is an overall USA imperial policy in the world that I'm really concerned about, a policy that's been in effect ever since the end of WWII, and it is being actively pursued by both of the major USA parties. Period. They both suck up to Israel and support Israel even when almost the entire rest of the world disagrees with what Israel does. They both persecute Iran. They both authorize warfare and invasion of other lands. They both subvert foreign governments, orchestrate regime change, torture prisoners in offshore prisons, arrange assassinations and civil insurrection in other sovereign nations, and they both conduct clandestine operations which are nothing less than outright terrorism. And they both lie to their own public about their real motives.

I am NOT parroting Republican Party PR when I say any of that. Quite the contrary. I am opposing their PR utterly. The only Republican spokesman of any note who essentially agrees with me about what I've said above is Ron Paul, and practically the only Democrat of note who agrees with me about it is Dennis Kucinich.

The problem with your nation is that BOTH those parties are in power. They are partners in international crime on a vast scale.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Sep 12 - 02:29 PM

What I mean by that is...one of them is officially in power at any given time, but they actually both share it. That's how the system works. They are the right and left hand of the same body, and that body is practicing an imperial agenda in the world....and a fiscally fraudulent agenda both at home and abroad.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,nobody in particular
Date: 02 Sep 12 - 02:39 PM

Aside from whatever political persuasion you belong, maybe you could explain why in your last elections, 2008, President Obama's largest contributors were Chase Morgan and Goldman Sachs. This year they are primarily funding the opposition, Romney~Ryan. Little Hawk contends that the bankers own both parties, and therefore, your 'parties' are the same, in that respect.

So, here's a question for you, for either side of political 'beliefs'.
After the elections, and the new people get into office, do you suspect that these financial institutions, who fund the winners, expect special favours in return? Do you suspect that your positions, from one side or the other, might be a product, of what the banking institutions are also funding you to believe? And has it occurred to you that what you are being led to believe, is for the benefit of the people of your country, or the banking institutions?

I happen to believe that Little Hawk is far closer to understanding the powers behind the curtain, and their influences, on the public than many of you. As you charge at each other with non-factual nonsense and half truths, you are missing the true culprit behind the divisions!

I am neither for the Republicans nor the Democrats in your country, but would feel more inclined to support one side or the other, if one of them would just start telling the truth, and the whole truth of how your financial mess occurred, and offered publicly, a truthful remedy to it, and closed the loopholes that caused it to happen in the first place.

Until then, Little Hawk is indeed correct.
I posted a link THREE times that explains your problem quite clearly and accurately. Until your party system embraces the will to take on the real problems, and offer real solutions, then I'd have to say, that you are only living in the fantasy that they charmed you into believing, and your debates amount to nothing, and off the issues.

The rest it's just a matter of time before your system, as a whole, will fall, and fall right into the hands of control of those who purposefully brought it about.

My suggestion to your country is to stop the juvenile posturing and divisive scrapping, and unite as a solid voice with conviction, instead of playing the game that they want you to play, for their benefit!!


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 02 Sep 12 - 04:47 PM

""It is an overall USA imperial policy in the world that I'm really concerned about, a policy that's been in effect ever since the end of WWII, and it is being actively pursued by both of the major USA parties.""

It is my belief that you are attempting to bolster a pet argument by extrapolating from an obsolete basis.

You don't know (none of us do) that Obama intends, or ever intended to pursue the line you claim.

The mere fact that he made a very determined attempt at universal health care in the USA is a huge and courageous departure from previous policy in the USA, notwithstanding that obstructive tactics of the GOP watered it down.

This alone flags up a strong indication of a President who isn't afraid to break the mould and go for something better.

His record on war is not of his making. He was handed a situation in which the only thing worse than having troops in Afghanistan would be to withdraw them too soon.

Unless he gets a second term in office with a decent majority in Senate and Congress, we shall never know how much he might have achieved.

All that we DO know really, is that he was and is deliberately prevented from doing anything, good or bad, by a bunch of obstructive arseholes, who don't give two shits about their country or its people, as long as they keep making money out of it.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Sawzaw
Date: 03 Sep 12 - 11:51 AM

Bill Gates is the richest an in America.

Does he deserve his wealth?


___strongly agree

___somewhat agree

___somewhat disagree

___strongly disagree


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Sawzaw
Date: 07 Sep 12 - 07:51 AM

Bobert is still refusing to man up to his hideous error about somewhat agree and somewhat disagree meaning the same thing.

He has used somewhat himself as a measure of something and continues to use it. But he claims it is academic dishonesty to use it in a poll even though MIT, Yale and Harvard use the term.

He says it is like the glass half full or half empty. However how do you describe a glass that is anywhere between half full and full? Somewhat full would be an accurate description.

How can you describe a glass that is anywhere between half full and empty? Somewhat empty would be an accurate description.

So I am waiting for Bobert to act like the highly educated humanitarian person he claims to be and admit his mistake.

Will Bobert respond with personal attacks or intellectual honesty?

Now I like ol' Bobert. His heart is in the right place but he is a hothead. He gets belligerant and blurts out some things that are totally wrong but instead of owning up, he wants to defend the wrong things he says by personally attacking anyone who questions them.

I have never called him stupid or a liar. He is far from stupid and he is just wrong sometimes, not a liar.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Sep 12 - 09:29 AM

There's no "man up" to it, Sawz...

This poll was flawed from the jump... The questions were ill-thought-out to produce a given result...

This is why I really don't give a lot of credence to polls in general... Generally they conducted and/or paid for by folks with a particular point of view...

People who have taken college statistics all know this...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 07 Sep 12 - 10:57 PM

Is this question sorta like, If I write lyrics, and compose a great piece of music, should I be entitled to the Rights, and Royalties??

Just wondering...

To 'nobody in particular': OK, found you on a thread that I can respond to you....Your video was dead on the money!!!

People have accused me of being you, and vice-versa. Don't be bothered by it...it's just a tactic they do to polarize people away from the truth! I've read some of your posts, as I've scrolled back through the threads...You, Little Hawk, 999, myself(of course), Songwronger, often Sawzaw, akenaton, PDQ, along with others have a clue. The only caution I would say, is NOT to veer off too far to the 'right'.
I have really enjoyed your perspective!

I may not be able to get back to you, for a while, but keep posting!..I'll see them sooner or later.

BTW, are you a musician?

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Sep 12 - 08:14 AM

Pure BS, GfinS...

On the "Clue Scale" from 0 to 10, with 0 being the most cluless I'd rank your all-star team as follows:

Songwronger - 0

Sawz - 0

Ake - 5 (*)

Gfins - 5

PDQ - 6

LH - 6

999 - 10

(* but not from a lack of trying...)

B;~)


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 08 Sep 12 - 08:49 AM

RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth

Bobert, let's not shift the main topic THIS TIME!!..So I repeat:

Is this question sorta like, If I write lyrics, and compose a great piece of music, should I be entitled to the Rights, and Royalties??

Just wondering...



GfS

P.S.
And as far as the other, should anyone really consider how a fringe fanatic rates the people he disagrees with??????????????


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Sawzaw
Date: 08 Sep 12 - 11:06 AM

Bobert:


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Sep 12 - 01:08 PM

Routine denigration of another person's intelligence and character is not a particularly illuminating way of conducting a debate, but it seems to be the main weapon left in the armoury of a few sour individuals who always show up on these threads. Are they honest enough to admit it or see themselves in the mirror? Naw....they're too busy defending their "tribal" identity to ever have the vision to take a step back and rate their own behaviour objectively. Just like bullies in a schoolyard, ganging up on the "weird kid".

The tribe even has its idiot savant, a man who rarely speaks, but when he does it is with the weight of an historic grandeur that commands immediate respect from the tribe, and he says something innately clever like, "YO...JACKASS! BLOW ME."

Why would anyone wish to belong to such a tribe?

****

Sawzaw - I still don't know if Bill Gates deserves his wealth or not. How can I say? He's an individual, and I don't know enough about his life to be able to say. But what I do think is that when a society's rich elite grow steadily richer and its many poor grow steadily poorer and its middle class withers away, that society is heading down the road to collapse or to revolution. History bears me out on that.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Sep 12 - 02:12 PM

For whatever you may think of Bill Gates, at one time he was worth up to $90 billion dollars. He was basically a geek, with his nose perpetually on a computer screen, trying to think up new software he could sell. Then he married Melissa and she humanized him. Between Melissa and his father, Bill Gates, Sr., giving him the occasional dope-slap, they formed the "Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation," which has given away billions to a number of good causes. His personal fortune is now down to about $30 billion, and is continuously shrinking. Not because MicroSoft is losing money, but because he's giving it away!

Ted Turner, at one time, was worth $3 billion—a relative pauper compared to Bill Gates—and he gave away (so far) $1 billion. When criticized for this by some of his fellow billionaires, Turner responded, "Who the hell NEEDS that much money, anyway!!?" He also built a sports stadium in Atlanta. Unlike most such sports stadiums, no taxes were assessed from the citizens. Turner built it on his own dime

Yeah, I can feel fairly good about guys like that. They've actually lifted their heads out of the cash box and looked around.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Sep 12 - 03:42 PM

Don, he wasn't worth 90 million dollars, he had 90 million dollars. ;-) You can't measure a person's worth in dollars.

Not really taking issue with what you said on any personal basis...I just can't help but react negatively to that expression "he's worth so-and-so many dollars" when it's said about anyone. It's a very odd use of language to my ears, and it says a lot about the money-worshipping society that gave it birth.

****

In regards to the subject of this thread...

It's common for people to envy those who have great wealth. It's common for people to look down their noses at those who have very little money...and also to fear them. Nasty things are often said (or thought) in both cases, but that has no bearing one way or another on basic issues of social justice. A nation that cares about social justice will try hard to ensure that everyone has a good start in life, affordable housing, job opportunities, enough food, medical care, and a good education.

How is that done? Through various forms of socialism, that's how. You can't do it without having some socialist institutions and services in place which have been set up by the entire community through government, churches, and other community structures. If you have capitalism flourishing alongside these socialist institutions, so much the better, because the two go together "like a horse and carriage". This is not given credence in the USA, because the very word "socialism" has been turned into a mythical boogeyman to scare American voters who apparently have no real idea what socialism is in the first place, even though it's an integral part of their lives and always has been.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Sep 12 - 04:09 PM

Little Hawk, that's kind of nit-picking. I was not saying that Bill Gates, the person, is worth $90 billion, as contrasted with a lady I know of who lives in her car with two small children, who, in those terms, is worth no more than the small salary she receives working at a nearby Kentucky Fried Chicken drive-inn.

Actually, in purely material terms, they're both worth about $1.75 if chemically rendered!

I don't think anybody means that. It is merely a shorthand way of referring to the size of their bank account or other holdings, if any.

I don't know what point you were trying to make with this, other that you seem to be implying that I said something that I did not.

The rest of your post is right on point.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Sep 12 - 04:19 PM

Do Gates and Turner deserve their wealth? First question one might ask is "What did they do to earn or acquire it?"

Next question:   "What are they DOING with it?"

Are they using it to attempt to improve the world? Or are they removing it from the economy and just shipping it all off to bank accounts in Switzerland or the Cayman Islands?

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: pdq
Date: 08 Sep 12 - 04:48 PM

"...Yeah, I can feel fairly good about guys like that. They've actually lifted their heads out of the cash box and looked around." ~ Propaganda Minister Firth

Mitt Romney and Ronald Reagan each donated 10% of their before-tax income to their respective churches. They did that every year for their entire adult lives.

One year, that was near $3 million for Romney.

Worth a mention?

Of course not, they are/were Republicans. Not your tribe.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 Sep 12 - 04:56 PM

""Don, he wasn't worth 90 million dollars, he had 90 million dollars. ;-) You can't measure a person's worth in dollars.""

You are not paying attention LH. That is exactly what Corporate America does, and especially the GOP.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Sep 12 - 06:42 PM

Pdq, I don't know what your religious beliefs are, if any, but Reagan's father was Catholic and his mother was a member of the Disciples of Christ church. As a adult, Reagan was a Presbyterian.

And as you undoubtedly know, Romney is a Mormon.

Tithing—giving ten percent of one's income to one's church—is either a requirement of membership of many churches, or at the very least, is sternly recommended.

Men as wealthy as Romney and Reagan who did NOT tithe would receive no end of grief from the churches to which they belong.

Being a Rebublican or a Democrat has absolutely nothing to do with it.

Now, if they gave MORE than 10%, to include good causes OTHER than their churches, THEN, I might be impressed.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Sep 12 - 06:43 PM

Yes, of course they do, Don T., and I object to it just as strenuously as you do. That was my point. I was not making any personal comment about Don Firth at all, merely commenting on a popular figure of speech that I don't like very much, and saying something about the prevailing culture that gave birth to that figure of speech.

I am paying attention, and we appear to enthusiastically agree about both the GOP and Corporate America.

(We just disagree to some extent about the Democrats. I think Corporate America runs them too. Unlike the Republicans, though, they don't act as if they were proud of it. That wouldn't please their support base.)


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Sep 12 - 07:16 PM

Of course Corporate America is trying to gain control over the Democratic Party. That's not in dispute. They already have a solid grasp on the Republican Party (in fact, many Republicans are members of Corporate America). But they don't have as solid a grasp on the Democrats as they would like, due to politicians such as my local Congressional Representative, Jim McDermott, and a fair number of others I could list.

This is why I support the Democratic Party as best as I can.

Sad to say, but true, there are no VIABLE alternatives.

Many Democrats are working like beavers to get the amendment declaring Corporations to be "people" rescinded. I don't know of any Republicans who are doing that!

To say that both parties are equally corrupt and there is no point in supporting either one is a) not accurate, and it is b) defeatist. Just exactly what Corporate America wants you to think!

As I have said a number of times, the rumor "You can't fight City Hall" was STARTED by City Hall! Think about it!

What Liberals need to do is get off their butts and get to work!!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Sep 12 - 08:58 PM

I agree that the Republicans are worse. I agree that there appears to be no viable alternative for Americans (to vote for) other than the Democrats at this juncture. Happy now?


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Sep 12 - 09:43 PM

Corporate America has given up on trying to gain access to Obama... That's why all those folks who made donations in '08 aren't making them anymore... Even George Soros has pulled back...

Ya'll might not want to give any credit to Obama for this but he has ended the pay-to-play ball games... But he gets no credit for that "CHANGE"... No, just criticism for not taking payola???

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Stringsinger
Date: 09 Sep 12 - 10:57 AM

This is a misleading question because I doubt anyone would poll favorably to the misuse of wealth and power. Wealthy people who arrive at their condition through honest labor
would be part of that 58%, not the speculative, hedge-fund hogs, bloated CEOs, equity firms that bankrupt the companies they acquire and leave workers holding the debts to the banksters, and out-of-control energy companies and the Pentagon.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 12:23 AM

Once again I ask.....(though hypocrites with double standards, hate to answer it)....:

RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth

Let's not shift the main topic THIS TIME!!..So I repeat:

Is this question sorta like, If I write lyrics, and compose a great piece of music, should I be entitled to the Rights, and Royalties??

Just wondering...



GfS

P.S. I'm only here tonight only...


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Ebbie
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 12:43 AM

"Is this question sorta like, If I write lyrics, and compose a great piece of music, should I be entitled to the Rights, and Royalties??"

Wa'al, danged. I'll answer it. No. It is nothing like that, not even sorta.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 12:59 AM

Even if one made a shitload of money off it??...Even got 'rich'....Does he deserve it?

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 08:17 AM

Nah.
He's just got better things to do than participate in your horseshit antics.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Sawzaw
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 08:36 AM

So Bobert needs Girls to protect him?


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 09:04 AM

TIA is right...You're games bore me, Saws...

If you need a case of jollies go beat off...

Bye...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 09:14 AM

Awww..Don't go for a cheap cop out, Bobert, you're better than that. Just go for the facts, and let the chips fall where they fall. You didn't set Obama's, or the Democratic agenda(nor the Republicans)..but something sure ain't right, with both of them, and the inconsistencies, of both these OWNED groups, should be addressed, and SOMEBODY or SOMEONES accountability should be found out, and held accountable... don't you think?? (Not if they can keep us from doing it).

Love ya',

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 09:22 AM

Got a problem with girls misogynist asshole?


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 09:23 AM

Hey, GfinS... You doing okay??? You ain't sneaking no smokes, are ya'??? You walkin' yer 2 miles??? Don't make me come out there and walk you like an ol' dog 'cause I will...

As for "coppin' out"??? Nah, I have shredded every juvenile-istic argument that Saws has thrown up here... He's just back to his little OCD stuff which, frankly, I find not worth my time... You shred one and he just picks another one to shred... No thanks...

As for "accountability", I blame the corporate owned media for not asking the tough questions like "What the hell is your plan for the economy?"...

Obama says "Steady as she goes" and Romney says "I'm a job creator"...

These are bogus answers that mean absolutely nothing... I think it's time that these guys have to answer the question... Maybe in the debates???

Nah...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Sawzaw
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 09:42 AM

No. Just the "men" that hide behind them.

Bobert needs to present something to support his "somewhat agree = somewhat disagree" assertion or admit it was wrong. Otherwise he looses his credibility. He calls it a game. I call it intellectual honesty.

He hounded the shit out of Tbus over the war in Iraq but he believes nobody can question him.

Words have consequences. Bobert does not want to be responsible for what he said. Tia is an enabler.

Does Tia agree that "somewhat agree = somewhat disagree"?


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 09:43 AM

1-800-BETTYFORD...


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 09:59 AM

Bobert: "As for "accountability", I blame the corporate owned media for not asking the tough questions ...."

Well you got that mostly right...except one thing....who owns the 'corporate owned media'....and how much 'other' stuff have they gotten YOU to believe??

One more thought to give consideration to...Who else do those people own? Party 'leaders'?..and half the crap that otherwise good and caring citizens are led to believe...to the point of dividing us?? You? Sawzaw?..(Even though Sawzaw HAS posted some accurate stuff!..even if it is 'unpopular' with liberal thinking).

The way I figure it, is music, at least the music I'm focused on, reaches the hearts of PEOPLE..regardless of 'said affiliations'...because there is something down deeper that we all have in common. Speak to that, and as it grows, the ones who are corrupting the public's thinking will be losing their grip...as the people are fed, and reminded, and entertained...and not with political divisive rhetoric...as per aforementioned, 'I'm not with the party..I'm with the band!'
'T is a noble calling, we musicians!'

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Sawzaw
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 10:01 AM

Go ahead and call them Bobert, but use the correct number.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 10:26 AM

With ya' on that last point, GfinS... I've performed twice in the last 5 days... Now, where as I have never felt that it was professional to mix in "overt" politics with performing it does allow me to interact with people afterwards...

I played before an exclusively white audience Tuesday night up in Concord, NC but had met this fine black women/blues singers at a festival last Saturday and asked her if she would accompany me on a song at the Tuesday night gig...

I was the 4th performer and the first 3 were all white boys playing the same old- same old Chicago style blues... That's fine... I ain't got no problems with that... That is reality when it comes to the blues scene...

Then I got my chance and as I was mezmorizing them with the hard rhythm coming out of my Lowebow I was talking about where the blues came from... Lotta people are either clueless or in denial... No matter... I had their attention 'cause, unlike the 3 bands before me, they turned their chairs and barstools so they could get a good look at what I was doing... Then I called up my new friend, Maddie McCoy, and between the two of us we took folks back the juke joints and gave them something else to think about other than the same Chicago style 12 bar pablum...

Afterwards, at least a dozen folks came up to me telling me how much they enjoyed that Mississippi style music... When I perform that always happens and I love making those personal contacts because now it's one-on-one and there are things you can say one-on-one that ain't stage material... Know what I mean???

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 10:50 AM

They got it. They're keepin it.
Yep I know how they feel about it.
They are positive that
The rich deserve your wealth.



They have words to describe the middle class:

bottom feeders
dead peasants
undeserving poor
leeches
parasites
radicals
needless eaters


they gotta million ofem


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Sawzaw
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 11:03 AM

I am not questioning Bobert's Musical talents.

If he said Chet Atkins was lousy and BB King was great I would take his word for it. He would know better than I.

It is his obtuse political, racial, bigoted, conflicted, biased statements That I criticize. In his last post the had to keep identifying black and white people as if that means something.

But when he claims that I am wrong in some fact that I can support and he can't, That he is more educated than I am which automatically makes him right, I can question him on it like he does to others.

He believes other people need to prove what they say but he doesn't have to.

I am invoking the same rights as Bobert.

I am sorry Bobert but when you state something that is not true, I will call you on it and you can do the same to me.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Ebbie
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 12:15 PM

SZ, weather forecasters say 'Partly sunny or Partly cloudy'. 'Mostly sunny or Mostly cloudy'. In real life what does that mean to you?


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Sawzaw
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 12:24 PM

Ebbie: Please read my previous posts.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 12:54 PM

"If he said Chet Atkins was lousy and BB King was great I would take his word for it. He would know better than I."

Do you have ANY musical interest or knowledge or do you just come here to argue?


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 02:11 PM

OK BOBERT!!!

Music reaches far more people than politics..being as it goes to their humanity!!
Politics is a way of manipulating people AWAY from their humanity, to fit the agenda of the controllers at the top.
Music doesn't have to "hold back the sea, it only has to be!"

The MORE you get into the music, the more obvious it becomes, that deception has uneven rhythms!!!!!

..and that is the ONLY point where you and I have differed! I'm NOT a political cat...(sorta like a pole cat!)..it stinks to high heavens!

...and Bobert-Babes..remember that piece of mine you called 'Delicious'?
Right wingers liked it too!...and some black musicians were in awe of it!

Picking a side cuts your audience in half..and why do that, when there are so many hearts to touch...so many lives to change, and reinforce the good things that live within!!

Regards, you Ol' Coot!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 03:44 PM

"who owns the 'corporate owned media'"

Corporations?

LOL!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 05:46 PM

See, the difference between us, GfinS, is that as a white man playing blues like black folks mused to play it that opens up discussions that you can't have... I can... It ain't bigoted to talk about the blues and history and race... These things are intertwined with what I do... The stories I tell when I perform are part of out history... No bigotry... Just reality... Ya' see, a white boy with so much black culture in me I see things differently than most white people... That don't make anyone better or worse... Just different...

I mean, Obama gave an excellent speech on race 4 years ago during the Rev Wright Swift-boating and I thought he it went well...

A frank discussion of race, and out history, is way overdue...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Sawzaw
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 11:21 PM

Do you have anything to contribute Jack, or do you just want to argue?

Ebbie:

You seem like a nice, open person so I will explain.

Bobert takes the two descriptions somewhat agree and somewhat disagree and proceeds to equate them to glass half full or half empty or partly cloudy / partly sunny.

That is a false analogy. The proper analogy would be a glass more than half full and a glass less than half full or mostly sunny or mostly cloudy.

He uses the same "somewhat agree" statement in other posts so it must be a proper description of something if he uses it.

I have also presented several examples of universities like Harvard, Yale and MIT surveys that use the two terms.

Either Bobert is wrong or the universities are wrong but he won't say.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 14 Sep 12 - 12:01 AM

Sure I have lots to contribute! Thanks for asking.

I have two questions.

What is your interest in music?

Do you do anything but pick fights with liberals to make yourself look dumb. And keep in mind that getting one over on Bobert once in a while, which you think you have done now, is a hardly a victory because he plays dumb for humor and obviously lets you have most of your victories. Whether it is out of pity or to keep you coming around for more humiliation?? It is hard to say.

BTW There is not a light of light of day between "Partly agree and partly disagree." They are both slight deviations from a point of agree. It is pretty much the same as partly cloudy. Either there are clouds in the sky or there are no clouds in the sky. It is cloudy or not cloudy Either there is something in the glass or there is not. It is empty or it is not. Either you agree or you do not. "Partly agree" Party disagree are touchy feely emotional mumbo jumbo. My skin crawls a little every time someone asks me that.

Here is some proof for you that everyone who has read one of your posts is sure to appreciate. Have you ever partly agreed with one of Bobert's posts? Have you ever partly disagreed?   Not that I have seen. It just doesn't work that way. Does it?

Please before you repeat something as dumb as "Bobert is calling Harvard a liar" learn something about how and why those questions are worded that way. I'll bet you Bobert could teach you. He has worked in the social sciences. ;-)

Yeah, I'm pretty sure he is giving you this one.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Sep 12 - 01:17 PM

Thanks, JtS...

Sawz can't help himself... He is literally obsessed with me... I mean, debilitatingly so... He tries on occasion to follow the "12 steps" but it never lasts and then he's back at spending hours a day going through all my old writing pulling things completely out of context thinking that I'm going to fall for his bait..

I don't have hours and hours to play his games so I purdy much tell him to fuck off and go about my business...

BTW, as you know, Jack, taking stuff out of context is a form of lying... You know that... I know that... Any college educated person knows that... Sawz still doesn't get it...

And the beat goes on...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 14 Sep 12 - 02:16 PM

Bobert, old buddy,

I think you give him to much credit?

"I have also presented several examples of universities like Harvard, Yale and MIT surveys that use the two terms."

It appears that he is saying that Harvard, Yale and MIT are examples of universities. Which is true.

Then he appears to be saying that the whole of each university uses these things universally. Which is far from true.

Then he implies that since someone in the university uses these things then that proves that your criticism of his use of them makes you a liar.

This is such confused and silly balderdash that it makes it very difficult to find the lie.

To prove that it was a lie, you have to first determine whether or not he has said anything. I don't think that he has. He has tossed out a lot of words. Some of them with some credibility, for example "Yale." But how can it be a lie when it isn't even a coherent English sentence?


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Sep 12 - 03:31 PM

Yup, Jts... You got him pegged...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Sawzaw
Date: 15 Sep 12 - 09:35 PM

"Bogus polling... Any college Stats instructor would point that out right away"

The Washington Post
1. Do you approve or disapprove of the way Barack Obama is handling his job as president? Do you approve/disapprove strongly or somewhat?

Harvard.edu
Regardless of how you voted on Ballot Question
1, please tell us if you agree or disagree with the
following statements:
4."The Commonwealth of Massachusetts can
reduce its annual spending by 40% without a
major impact on the services it provides."
___Strongly agree
___Somewhat agree
___Somewhat disagree
___Disagree strongly


___ Strongly agree
___ Somewhat agree
___ Somewhat disagree
___ Strongly disagree

apsu.edu Evaluating Course Delivery
"A teaching style that worked best for you as a student wouldn't necessarily work best for most students."

A. strongly agree
B. somewhat agree
C. somewhat disagree
D. strongly disagree


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Sep 12 - 09:43 PM

Yo, your Honor...

I'd just enter Sawz last post as Exhibit #379 that he needs to be institutionalized...

Your cooperation will be appreciated, your Honor...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 15 Sep 12 - 09:59 PM

He's pulling your leg dog. :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Sawzaw
Date: 15 Sep 12 - 10:10 PM

Jack: I like music.
Is there any requirement you have about who posts what?
Do you have some authority or just arrogance?
I have no requirements.
You are the one picking fights and Bobert is the one challenging me about the poll.

Rather than produce any facts, he makes personal attacks like you. The description of a person that does that is a blowhard.
Telling someone to go somewhere for the proof is an attempt to weasel out of their mistake.

Furthermore you make false assertions like "before you repeat something as dumb as "Bobert is calling Harvard a liar""

Where and when did I say that Jack?

Whom is correct about using the term "somewhat agree or somewhat disagree" is it Harvard or Bobert? Is that calling Bobert a liar?

When have I ever called anybody a liar? I think it is a crude low class uncivilized term.

Bobert has used the term somewhat agree himself yet he says "Somewhat agree" and "somewhat disagree" are the same...

So why would Bobert use the term?


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Sep 12 - 10:30 PM

HJaving been responsible for conducting polls for aalmost 20 years, I ca only comment that the best way of asking a question like thti is not through discrete numbers or words---a line with one end labled "Agree completely" and the other labled "Totally disagree", wher the one taking the poll puts a mark along the line. It's not a perfect system----the pollstertill has to analyze the data, but it avoids silly agruments like the one tthat's going on here.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Sep 12 - 10:32 PM

I ain't challenging your poll now, Saws...

I have shredded it all to hell and back...

It is bogus as a $3 bill...

Get an education, man... Your posts read like "Notes from the Mentally Challenged" ward of any state mental hospital...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 15 Sep 12 - 11:58 PM

What I would like is to HAVE some of that wealth, then sit back and see if I think I deserve it or not! I bet most other people think the same way.

Bobertz, you ever write to Anne Landers? Or Dear Abby?

- Chongo


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 16 Sep 12 - 12:03 AM

He is totally playing you dog.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Sep 12 - 09:56 AM

No, Chongz, I don't need no stenkin' advice...

You???

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Sawzaw
Date: 16 Sep 12 - 10:00 AM

Bobert evidently was not educated at Harvard or MIT.

And he uses the same flawed statements himself so he has shredded nothing but his own credibility.

"I factor in the "corporate/establishment variable" which means that the number is probably somewhat higher... Learned that in "Statistics 201" which dealt alot with polls..."


HMMMM He learned in "Statistics 201" to factor in the somewhat higher [also meaning somewhat lower] corporate/establishment variable"

So his learning was Bogus.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Sep 12 - 11:33 AM

Tell ya' what, Sawz...

When you post a copy of your college transcript indicating that you passed a college Stats course, I'll do the same...

Until then, you are just continuing to pile more evidence into an already high pile that you are clueless on the subject...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Sawzaw
Date: 16 Sep 12 - 12:30 PM

Tell ya' what Bobert, act like a man instead of a blowhard and produce some facts that support you assertions. I have already produced mine.

Lets start with your "somewhat higher" statement. How is that mean something different than somewhat lower?

Designing Questionnaire and Survey Research.
Introduce scientific research using quantitative approach.


Example: The Employment Self Esteem Scale INSTRUCTIONS: Please rate how strongly you agree or disagree with each of the following statements by placing a check mark in the appropriate box. 1. I feel good about my work on the job. Strongly Agree Somewhat Agree Somewhat Disagree Strongly Disagree.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Sep 12 - 12:53 PM

I have...

I have tried to explain to you basic college level statistics and fallacy in the poll you cited...

Those are facts... If you were to actually take that poll and article to a stats professor he or she would tell you ignorant self exactly what I have pointed out... You have a bogus poll that was set up to get a desired result...

One can no say that "believe + somewhat believe = believe"... That's pretty clear...

Speaking of believe... There are folks who believe the world is flat, that LBJ had Kennedy killed, that man didn't go to the moon, that vaccines are harmful, etc., etc...

So believe all the wrong stuff you want... It's a free country... Well, kinda...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 16 Sep 12 - 01:10 PM

He is totally leading you around by the nose Sawz.

Who is your favorite folk singer? Dead or alive?


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Sawzaw
Date: 17 Sep 12 - 09:24 AM

Bobert:

Telling someone to go somewhere to find something to support your assertion is not presenting a fact. The burden is on you to support your assertion with facts, not the person you accuse.

It is a hollow, Blowhard method to avoid admitting that you are wrong. A diversionary tactic.

You use the term yourself. You contradict yourself and refuse to admit it.

"But I do somewhat agree with John in that the Repub base has a different set of marals than the Dem base but the Repubs have been cultivating these folks for decades with their pounding away at the Dems on "family values" (whatever the hack that means) and now it's coming back to haunt them..."


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Sep 12 - 09:35 AM

Lets make it real easy for ya', Sawz...

I'm going to assume that you at least took high school algebra...

X = believe

Y = somewhat believe

With your illogic you would have people believe the following:

X + Y = X

You are wrong as wrong can be... You can say that you believe that X + Y = X until yolu are blue in the face but your still wrong... You can say I am a "blowhard" for pointing out your wrongness but you are still wrong... You can set up a folding table in from of your local Food Lion and ask people to sign a petition that says, "We the undersigned believe that X + Y = X and you, and the folks who sign it, will still be wrong...

In other words???

You are wrong... But worse than that, like all tin-foilers, you don't care...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Sep 12 - 10:16 AM

BTW, there is one scenario where X + Y = X and that is if Y = 0....

If, however, in the case of this phony poll had Y = 0 then there wouldn't have been a "somewhat" category, would there???

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 17 Sep 12 - 11:30 AM

Bobert-
Stay away from math. It's not your strong point.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 17 Sep 12 - 11:38 AM

Actually Dick, those last two posts made perfect sense. That is a departure from his usual mix in the misspelling and corn pone for comic effect patois.

I have some sympathy for Sawzaw. Trying to hold Bobert to his literal words must be mighty headache causing.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Sep 12 - 12:58 PM

That's twice you busted on my math skills, Dick... Maybe three times - grin...

There is nothing wrong with my logic here... I may not be Einstein but I got a couple college degrees and taught public school for two years and GED in the Richmond City Jail another couple years... BTW, I got a B in Stats 201 so I think I understand the concepts here... Also got Bs in both semesters of math that was required for my first degree...

Have you read the study, Dick??? I have...

BTW since when does agree = somewhat agree??? It doesn't...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 17 Sep 12 - 01:12 PM

I somewhat agree and somewhat disagree with most of what ya said, Bobertz. ;-D

- Chongo


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,nobody in particular
Date: 17 Sep 12 - 01:55 PM

I strongly agree that being mostly disagreeable with those who strongly somewhat agree, is somewhat agreeable with those who strongly agree. Can we agree on that? Or strongly disagree to be somewhat agreeable?


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Sep 12 - 05:50 PM

LOL, nobody...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 17 Sep 12 - 07:03 PM

Sounds sorta like the guys at Duffy's Bar & Grill around about Last Call...

- Chongo


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 17 Sep 12 - 07:07 PM

400

I'm just doing this so no one else will.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Sep 12 - 07:21 PM

If you listen to Sawz and his pollsters that was only somewhat 400, Jack...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 17 Sep 12 - 08:11 PM

Bobert-
I'm not commenting on the study.The problem you're having with your X and Y simile is not one of addition; it's membership in a group or class.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Sep 12 - 08:47 PM

No, Dick...

It's a simple binomial equation where there are 2 variables: X and Y...

X = the % of people in the study strongly believe and...

...Y = the % of people who somewhat believe

Now if we listen to your and Sawz logic X and Y are the same... They are not or the pollsters would have worded the choices differently in asking do you believe or don't you... That would give you two choices... I giving the folks 4 different choices they have the potential for four different outcomes...

When you read the study it does not break down the US responses but does break down the 4 choices and with all the countries where this poll was conducted only 15% of the respondents said they strongly believed... That leaves 85% in the somewhat believe. somewhat don't believe and strongly don't believe...

To jump to "58% believe" from the statistics (15%) is like jumping the Grand Canyon on a pogo stick...

I mean, let's get real here, Dick...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 17 Sep 12 - 11:26 PM

Knock it off Bobert!! This is the headline direct from the Huffington Post.

"Poll: 58 Percent Of Americans Believe Rich Deserve Their Wealth"

Obviously you have goaded Sawzaw into vigorously defending one of the few media outlets that proudly calls its self "liberal." Haven't you poked him enough?


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Sep 12 - 11:24 AM

The real question is, do I deserve my good looks? ;-)

I've given it some serious thought, and I think the answer is definitely "yes!".


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 18 Sep 12 - 01:05 PM

There's nothing wrong with lumping the numbers of respondents who "Strongly agree" with those who "Somewhat agree" as a total of those who "Agee". It's also OK to lump "Somewhat disagree" with "Somewhat agree" as a class "Not sure"
Statistics is a tool. People use this tool for what they perceive as their best interests.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Sep 12 - 01:15 PM

Yeah, that's right. First of all, they often word the question in such a way as to elicit a desired response. They world the question in order to limit people's range of response. This can and usually does result in gross oversimplification of a complex situation.

Statistics can be used to mislead, and for purposes of spreading false propaganda.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Sep 12 - 02:54 PM

Yo, Jack... I understand the "headline"... I've read the poll... I don't care who wrote it... It's bogus... Garbage is garbage no matter the source... No one in their right mind can defend the "title" or the poll...

I'm not trying to goad Sawz... He spends an inordinate amount of time trying dig up garbage and throw it in the Catbox as if each one is the Holy Grail...

Nah, when I smell garbage I'm callin' it out...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 18 Sep 12 - 04:28 PM

Leave him alone Bobert. To paraphrase former Texas governor Ann Richards "Poor Sawzaw, he just can't help himself."


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Sep 12 - 04:44 PM

Well, Jack... I agree with you there... He can't help himself... That's the way OCD is...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Sawzaw
Date: 19 Sep 12 - 10:56 PM

Blowhard Bobert has yet to justify his use of the term "somewhat agree" while he also claims it means the same as somewhat disagree.

"But I do somewhat agree with John in that the Repub base has a different set of marals than the Dem base but the Repubs have been cultivating these folks for decades with their pounding away at the Dems on "family values" (whatever the hack that means) and now it's coming back to haunt them..."


His cowardly defense is avoiding the question and name calling.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Sep 12 - 11:30 PM

Glory Be! We have found the secret of perpetual motion, and this thread is proof beyond any shadow of a doubt.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,999
Date: 20 Sep 12 - 12:20 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akm3nYN8aG8&feature=related

Now, THAT is a speech worth paying attention to.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Sep 12 - 09:31 AM

((((((((((((((((((((((((yawn))))))))))))))))))))))


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 20 Sep 12 - 09:52 AM

Sawzaw, when you see Robin Williams on the tonight show do you run to the Internet to try and diagnose him? Bobert is joking. He jokes a lot. If you stick out your leg, he pulls it. Grow up a little. stop sticking out your leg.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 20 Sep 12 - 10:09 AM

Given that the vast majority don't give two s**ts what anybody else thinks, because they just want the rich exterminated, maybe the following might be a statement that would satisfy both Sawz and Bobert, posted more in desperation than in hope.

15% say "The rich deserve their wealth."
43% say "Umm,....well,er....the rich might deserve their wealth."

Apply the same rule to the somewhat disagree and the disagree and you come out with:

X% (I don't have the figures to hand) say "The rich don't deserve their wealth."
Y% (                      "                        ) say "Umm,....well,er....the rich might not deserve their wealth."

Would that be sufficient for you guys to terminate this ultimately boring thread?

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Sep 12 - 11:46 AM

Fine with me, Don...

I have shredded Saws poll every way it can be shredded so he's down to his usual childish quotes that have been taken out of context... That's his MO after he knows he's wrong...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 20 Sep 12 - 01:02 PM

Stop sticking out your leg Sawzaw.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Sep 12 - 01:08 PM

He can't help it, Jack... Not only does he suffer from OCD but, like George W, is incapable of looking at anything in any manner but black and white, good and evil, right and wrong...

His problem... Not mine...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 20 Sep 12 - 01:11 PM

Stop sticking out your leg Sawzaw.

He will keep pulling it.


Don't bother to trip him up with inconsistency. Half of what he says is a joke and he is not telling you which half.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Sep 12 - 05:50 PM

When Mitt Romney spoke to billionaires, he seemed more relaxed and fluent than ever. His truth rolls off his tongue without effort.

By the way, being a billionaire today is no big deal anymore.
10 years ago the Fortune 400 cut off point was 75 million.
Now it is 1.1 billion dollars.

Today the top 400 wealthiest people amount to over 3/4 of one trillion dollars in liquid assets.

Wall St traders calls small investers suckers, grandmas, muppets and other disparaging names that reflect their true attitude.

So when Romney says what amounts to "Those people who expect entitlements and giveaways of Food, life, liberty, property and the pursuit of happiness, you name it, are parasitic takers bringing our America down" you can tell he feels this to be true to the marrow of his bones. To him American exceptionalism means wealth and power to all except "those people who have always been such losers".

The America he knows is the exclusive America - it excludes anyone without huge sums of cash in which he may have some trasactional benefits to pursue.


PS
I thought Bobert was one of a very few "comrades in opinions" but I have recently re-read posts by Jack the Sailor and am delighted by the clear genius, humor and POV . Perhaps I stopped looking close at his posts due to some derogatory remark or joke that was misinterpreted. I then noticed I had several other false predjudices regarding other folks I had unfairly judged to be beyond redemption in this life or painfully dull. But I guess that is just Spaw's charm;\


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 20 Sep 12 - 10:26 PM

You keep stickin it out. Bobert keeps pulling. He really doesn't give a crap what you think of him.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Sep 12 - 10:36 PM

No, I don't...

If I had an ounce of respect for Sawz it might be different but I don't... He is a mental midget... He doesn't get simple concepts... I won't use the "r" word but he is definitely "r" word material... Slow than a dead turtle... Man, that is slow...

But, hey??? There's always the endless list of quotes (all taken out of context = liar) for Sawz to make hi m feel all warm and fuzzy...

Bring 'um on, Sawz...

B;~)


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Sawzaw
Date: 20 Sep 12 - 10:51 PM

Blowhard Bobert weasles out of answering a question again but he requires other people to answer his questions."So, pdq... You don't want to answer my two simple questions???"

Histrionic personality disorder is characterized by a long-standing pattern of attention seeking behavior and extreme emotionality. Someone with histrionic personality disorder wants to be the center of attention in any group of people, and feel uncomfortable when they are not. While often lively, interesting and sometimes dramatic, they have difficulty when people aren't focused exclusively on them.

They constantly seek the approval and adoration of other people by exaggerating their emotions and actions. They have very strong opinions but often do not have well-thought-out or logical reasons for their ideas.

HPD patients generally do not seek treatment. A part of their condition is that they feel their behavior is normal and they hate to follow a treatment plan.

Has a style of speech that is excessively impressionistic and lacking in detail
Shows self-dramatization, theatricality, and exaggerated expression of emotion
Cannot tolerate criticism or disapproval
Cannot handle frustration or delays
Taking risks and making rash decisions
Easily influenced by others
Have intense, unstable emotions and a distorted self-image.
Very dramatic, as if performing in front of an audience, exaggerated emotions and expressions,
Very egocentric and self-indulgent

Many people with histrionic personality disorder don't seek out treatment. People with personality disorders, in general, do not often seek out treatment until the disorder starts to significantly interfere or otherwise impact a person's life. This most often happens when a person's coping resources are stretched too thin to deal with stress or other life events.

Like most personality disorders, histrionic personality disorder typically will decrease in intensity with age, with many people experiencing few of the most extreme symptoms by the time they are in the 40s or 50s.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Sep 12 - 10:56 PM

(((((((((((((((((((((((((((yawn))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

BTW, Sawz... Not one person on the planet read your post... Oh sure, there are a few folks here who will say they did but they didn't...

You are the yawn-poster of Mudville...

BTW, I didn't read your post either... Not worth my time...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Sep 12 - 11:06 PM

Good on you Bobert, apparently you have some need to help Sawz evolve.

Jeeze maybe in the cosmic stream of consciousness, a subconscious symbiosis acts like a quantum gravity of truth and knowledge.

nah, its fun just to argue.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Sep 12 - 11:12 PM

Sawz ain't into evolving... He is de-volving... Given enough time he might challenge the snail darter as the dumbest creature on Earth...

My money is on the snail darter...

B;~)


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 20 Sep 12 - 11:15 PM

I toooollllllddddd you so!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Sawzaw
Date: 20 Sep 12 - 11:51 PM

well well well wellllllllll, WEEEELLLLLLLLLLLL.

What have we here? A survey on President Obama's Job Approval by NPR.

Now lets look at it, look at the results and apply The Highly Educated Bobert's "logic" to the results:

President Obama's Image and the 2012 Election 
NPR July 2012
10. Do you approve or disapprove of the way Barack Obama is handling his job as President?
IF APPROVE OR DISAPPROVE, ASK: Would that be strongly (approve/disapprove), or just somewhat (approve/disapprove)?
                                    ALL        REP        IND        DEM        BATTLE G
STRONGLY APPROVE ................. 26%         3%         15%         57%         24%
SOMEWHAT APPROVE ................. 23%         6%         28%         31%          24%
SOMEWHAT DISAPPROVE .............. 10%         13%         16%         3%         10%
STRONGLY DISAPPROVE .............. 36%         78%         34%         6%         39%
DON'T KNOW/NO OPINION ............. 4%         1%         7%         3%         3%

APPROVE .......................... 49%         9%         43%         88%         48%
DISAPPROVE ....................... 46%         91%         50%         9%         49%
DON'T KNOW/NO OPINION ............. 4%         1%         7%         3%         3%
Superior Bobert "Logic" Applied:
APPROVE .......................... 26%         3%         15%         57%         24%
DISAPPROVE ....................... 69%         97%         50%         40%         73%
DON'T KNOW/NO OPINION ............. 4%         1%         78%         3%         3%
Dang Bobert, Looks like Obama is purdy much a loser according to your "logic".


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 21 Sep 12 - 12:12 AM

You keep sticking it out....


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Sawzaw
Date: 21 Sep 12 - 10:05 AM

"BTW, when you delve into Saws Globe Scan folks what you find is that of those 58%, if the US is somewhat typical of other nations, that only 15% "strongly deserve"... So between the strongly against, somewhat against and fors, reality is that 85% aren't all that wild about the rich deserving their wealth...

But, hey, if it makes Saws happy then why would a reasonable and alternate analysis of the data ruin his day"


If it makes Bobert happy then why would his own "reasonable and alternate analysis" of the NPR data ruin his day?

According to that "reasonable and alternate analysis":
reality is that 69% aren't all that wild about Obama.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Sep 12 - 01:02 PM

I have no specific problems with polls that ask "somewhat believe"...

What I have a problem with is the interpretation that "somewhat believe" = "believe"...

Why have a category for somewhat believe???

The NPR poll doesn't bother me at all because it does not attempt to lump the two together...

That's fine with me...

But with that said, I will again reiterate that polls of these sorts are less reliable than polls where there are on two choices...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 21 Sep 12 - 01:58 PM

He is right sawzie, Somewhat agree DOES NOT equal agree. That is pretty straightforward. Keep sticking it out.....


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 21 Sep 12 - 02:14 PM

If you start out with a conclusion, it's easy enough to make the data support it.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 21 Sep 12 - 03:20 PM

Doesn't totally disagree = agree?


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 21 Sep 12 - 03:25 PM

I just want you folks to know that I am gettin' paid a dollar for each additional post over 100 on this thread (my own posts excepted). This is due to a bet I made with Charlie the Langur Monkey. He said this thread wouldn't break 100 posts. I said it would.

He said, "I'll give ya a dollar for every post past 100 if it does, sucker."

I said, "Yer on!"

"But it don't count if you make the post," he cautioned.

"Deal," I said.

"And if it don't break 100 posts, ya gotta buy me bananas for a month," he added.

"No problemo," I said, with a grin.

So we agreed on it and shook. I am now well up over $300 on account of you fine people here, and still countin'! This is great. But it's killin' poor Charlie. He swears he's gonna find a way to make you all stop postin' before he is ruined.

I just told him "Good luck!" I know I can count on you folks to keep yammerin' on just about forever. I may be able to take a vacation soon, and I owe it all to you.

So, thanks! Yer a swell bunch.

- Chongo


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Sep 12 - 04:16 PM

Wait until you find out that Charlie "shook" with one hand while he had crossed fingers behind his back with the other...

Plus, you know how monkey's are...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 22 Sep 12 - 06:27 AM

""Plus, you know how monkey's are...""

Christ Bobz, don't call him a monkey or you'll be hip deep in ape shit.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Sep 12 - 07:23 AM

Don't talk about ape shit or any other kinda shit, Don... You know how even talkin' about the stuff makes Chongz wanta pick some up and starting throwing it at anyone or anything...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Sawzaw
Date: 22 Sep 12 - 10:01 AM

"The NPR poll doesn't bother me at all because it does not attempt to lump the two together..."

I think you need to clean your glasses Bobert.

It combined 26% STRONGLY APPROVE and 23% SOMEWHAT APPROVE to arrive at 46% approve.

You don't even know what the hell you are looking at much less what you are talking about.

Also you have totally lost your train of thought on exactly what I am wrong about.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 22 Sep 12 - 11:32 AM

Yer suggestin' that Charlie would stiff me for the money, Bobertz? I don't think so. After all, I know where he lives, see? I was watchin' his hands, and he didn't cross no fingers.

We apes and monkeys can also cross our toes! Did ya know that? Anyways, I was watching his feet too, and he didn't.

Then there's his tail, him bein' a monkey...hmmm. Well, I'm not quite sure. He mighta been crossin' his tail, I guess. No, wait...you'd have to have 2 tails to cross yer tail.

I think I can count on Charlie honorin' his bet.

And I am up another 4 bucks! Keep arguin', folks. Don't give in! Pursue that elusive final victory, the rhetorical knockout punch, and reduce yer political opponents to a quiverin' heap of jelly layin' on the floor. ;-D

- Chongo


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Sep 12 - 11:41 AM

Well, Chongz... If you trusted Charlie so much then why was it that you checked out everything he could cross??? Huh??? Answer me that one...

You ain't much smarter than Sawz... Ya'll related, 'er what???

BTW, should Charlie come thru I think I've earned a cut...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 22 Sep 12 - 12:19 PM

Monkey had his tail crossed.

They fool a lot on naive tailless primates that way.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Sep 12 - 12:35 PM

Hey, ain't that Charlie???

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 22 Sep 12 - 01:00 PM

Wow, that sure looks like Charlie! Nice picture.

You gotta lotta nerve suggestin' I might be related to Sawzaw, Bobertz. But I will pardon yer remark on the basis that you ain't the sharpest knife in the drawer either.

- Chongo


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 22 Sep 12 - 01:36 PM

You n saws have one thing in common, cept he gits his flinging poo from Fox News and you use your own.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 22 Sep 12 - 02:02 PM

That is rank specism, mister.

After I get elected there is gonna be a new national news network that'll leave Fox in the dust. It'll be called "The Grapevine". I predict that every "swinger" in the nation will tune into it daily. Their motto of course will be..."Oooooo...I heard it through The Grapevine".

- Chongo


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Sep 12 - 03:06 PM

Hey, wait just a minute there, Chongz... Jack is my friend and I know that he ain't no specist... Not all monkeys chuck poo... Some of my best friend monkeys don't chuck it... Most won't even touch the stuff...


You, on the other hand, are obsesses with poo... Maybe that's why you thought you'd be good in politics but you ain't 'cause of remarks like that last one about Jack... You think he's gonna vote for you now???

Word on the street is that was leaning toward it but you can forget about it...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 22 Sep 12 - 07:02 PM

From Sawz:-

"""The NPR poll doesn't bother me at all because it does not attempt to lump the two together..."

I think you need to clean your glasses Bobert.

It combined 26% STRONGLY APPROVE and 23% SOMEWHAT APPROVE to arrive at 46% approve.

You don't even know what the hell you are looking at much less what you are talking about.
""

Says the man who hasn't even noticed that 26 + 23 = 49, not 46.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Sep 12 - 07:19 PM

Doesn't do logic or math...

Pretty clueless...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Sep 12 - 08:35 PM

You trying to outsmart Chongo again, Bobert? He says you're the one who's obsessed with poo, cos you're the one who keeps bringing it up.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Sep 12 - 08:46 PM

And then LH and Chongz woke up...

He might have you fooled but, hey, what's new???

Huh???

Yer covering for him, man... You and Chongz need to talk with one of them co-dependency counselors...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Sep 12 - 08:51 PM

I'm covering for him, because I know he doesn't throw poo. I think it's shameful how you keep accusing Chongo of this. It's like offering a black person a big slice of watermelon and a "get out of jail free" card. Shame, Bobert! Shame!


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 23 Sep 12 - 01:04 AM

Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 12:23 AM

Once again I ask.....(though hypocrites with double standards, hate to answer it)....:

RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth

Let's not shift the main topic THIS TIME!!..So I repeat:

Is this question sorta like, If I write lyrics, and compose a great piece of music, should I be entitled to the Rights, and Royalties??

Just wondering...

AND>>>>>>>

From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 13 Sep 12 - 12:59 AM

Even if one made a shitload of money off it??...Even got 'rich'....Does he deserve it?

GfS



GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Sep 12 - 10:04 AM

Okay, back to the main topic...

A = believe

B = somewhat believe

The only time that A + B = A is when B = 0...

The study indicated that on an average (taking all the nations that were in the poll) that A = 15%...

If A = 15% then equation looks something like:

15% + B = 58%

in other words B = 58% - 15%

Meaning that B = 43% of people who somewhat agree...

The term somewhat mean that there is an aspect of somewhat not believing...

What % of the somewhat believe is actually somewhat not believe??? That is where the title of the thread is wrong...

Had the title of the poll been "58% believe or somewhat believe..." then that would have been accurate... The way it was written is not accurate...

PERIOD!!!

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 23 Sep 12 - 11:05 AM

Bobert: "Okay, back to the main topic..."

WHAT????!!!???

What I posted IS the main topic. 'Wealth' is relative....So, if you made a bunch of money selling your music, to 'some' people you might be considered 'wealthy'....Would you 'deserve' it?

(....and of course, if you did music just for money, even you would never think that enough was enough.....just like the 'wealthy' that this 'topic' is about.

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Sep 12 - 01:20 PM

Yes, wealth is a matter of perception, Sawzaw. My dachshund, for instance, considered himself wealthy when he discovered several pounds of discarded sparerib bones that a neighbour had irresponsibly dumped outside.

We considered ourselves poverty-stricken after we paid the Vet to deal with the after-effects of same...

The dog briefly considered himself ill and near death from the experience, but he learned nothing from it. A mere few days later he'd have done the same thing again without hesitation. His greed was without limit. This is also the case with most of the people who play the big money game. No amount of it ever seems to be "enough" for them....and that's a temptation which leads to fraud, economic devastation for the many, the collapse of national currencies, and the fighting of many unnecessary wars.

What I'm saying is...people have not progressed much farther in terms of real maturity than has the average dachshund! ;-D


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: pdq
Date: 23 Sep 12 - 01:41 PM

"Is this question sorta like, If I write lyrics, and compose a great piece of music, should I be entitled to the Rights, and Royalties??"

Of course you do. Even if you get rich and make the Marxists real mad.

BTW, the recording industry has always produced "one hit wonders" who sold a ton or records in a year, then vanished.

Think about the tax rate of 91% that was in effect from 1951 through the early part of the Kennedy administration.

A Black kid has a hit, gets paid (in theory) 1 million dollars, but the greedy Feds take all but $90 thousand. The kid feels he needs to take his homies out for a good time now and then, soon he is broke.

The million he made could have supported him and a family or life but the Feds took 91%. Is that fair?


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 23 Sep 12 - 01:43 PM

The purpose and function of statistics is to lump data in order to make it easier to deal with. There's nothing at all wrong with saying that the number of people who "strongly believe" plus the number who "somewhat believe" can be lumped to a category called "believe". This, of course woul not be true if the categories in question were "believe" and "somewhat believe".


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: pdq
Date: 23 Sep 12 - 02:00 PM

Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert - PM
Date: 23 Sep 12 - 10:04 AM

B-Pert ~

The term somewhat mean that there is an aspect of somewhat not believing...

Sarah Palin is having her PERIOD.

The study indicated that on an average (taking all the nations that were in the poll) that A = 15%...

"that's my answer to this Hillbilly Beer"....BURP

Okay, back to the main topic...

   A = believe

   B = somewhat believe

Average is the same as normal, just different.

The only time that A + B = A is when B = 0...

If A = 15% then equation looks something like:

15% + B = 58%

in other words B = 58% - 15%

Meaning that B = 43% of people who somewhat agree...

The Pentagon is having a 1 CENT SALE!

What % of the somewhat believe is actually somewhat not believe??? That is where the title of the thread is wrong...

Had the title of the poll been "58% believe or somewhat believe..." then that would have been accurate... The way it was written is not accurate...BURP


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Sep 12 - 03:55 PM

You about got how convoluted the original thread title is, pdq...

The point is that since the thread is bogus then any discussion there after is bogus-plus...

If someone wants to correct the bogus-ness of the thread then a discussion can go forward ...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 23 Sep 12 - 05:31 PM

"YOU didn't build that music!"....It was the government!....and they gave you that talent from redistribution of all the other talent!!"

The original innovators and composers are all fascist pigs!
Well, that's the 'left's' logic!!!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: pdq
Date: 23 Sep 12 - 06:20 PM

"you didn't build that bridge"


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Sep 12 - 06:53 PM

I'm having a hard time figuring out who is pulling whose leg on this thread. ;-D Meanwhile, Chongo's getting rich.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Sawzaw
Date: 23 Sep 12 - 09:57 PM

"Says the man who hasn't even noticed that 26 + 23 = 49, not 46"

You are correct. I was wrong 26+23 does equal 49 not 46. It doesn't bother me a bit to admit when I am wrong.

"The NPR poll doesn't bother me at all because it does not attempt to lump the two together"

The NPR poll lumped 26% strongly approve and 23% somewhat approve to arrive at an approval rating of 49% contrary to what Bobert said.

So Bobert is Wrong.

Now again Bobert, what was I wrong about?


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Sawzaw
Date: 23 Sep 12 - 10:10 PM

Here is another poll that proves Bobert is wrong.

On page 13 they took 30% strongly Approve, 20% somewhat approve and 6% lean approve and added them up to 56% approve.

Bobert cannot see the difference between somewhat approve and somewhat disapprove. Not only does he suffer from HPD but, like George W, is incapable of looking at anything in any manner but black and white, good and evil, right and wrong.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Sep 12 - 10:11 PM

What were you wrong about, Sawz???

I don't have enough years in my life to elaborate... If you are either talking or typing you are wrong...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Sep 12 - 11:36 PM

We need a racing form or something to get it figured it out at this point. It's become like a maze. What if we could get it submitted to the Supreme Court? Or the UN? How about a bipartisan Congressional Committee?

Shane usually recommends what he calls "blinding arbitation" to settle unresolved issues of this sort.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Sawzaw
Date: 23 Sep 12 - 11:47 PM

About what Bobert?

You are wrong about "somewhat agree" is the same as "somewhat disagree".

I have presented several examples to prove it.

Now what am I wrong about Mr Blowhard? You have presented noting but a bunch of bragging about how smart you are. Now you can't even stay on topic.

HPD people have very strong opinions but often do not have well-thought-out or logical reasons for their ideas.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 24 Sep 12 - 01:23 AM

It is really a shame that Bobert and Sawzaw can't seem to connect behind facts, instead of the reluctance to grasp the truth, and work to receive it.
You guys would really be a force!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 Sep 12 - 02:59 AM

"It is really a shame that Bobert and Sawzaw can't seem to connect behind facts, instead of the reluctance to grasp the truth, and work to receive it.
You guys would really be a force!

GfS "

6567 posts without expressing a single coherent thought.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Sep 12 - 08:08 AM

Facts???

I have presented "facts"...

I have laid out an academically honest assessment of the poll and why it's title is not accurate...

I have challenged Sawz to take my position to any Stats professor for their assessment...

But he won't do that...

That's the problem with all Republicans and "closet" Republicans... Ya'll are heavy on "believing" and light on "facts"...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Sawzaw
Date: 24 Sep 12 - 08:39 AM

But he still has not said and can't say what I am wrong about.

Bobert says Somewhat agree means the same thing as somewhat disagree. He is wrong about that.

I have presented other polls in which they were separated which proves he is wrong.

Let him present a poll in which the two were added together with the strongly disagree to arrive at the disagree percentage as he says should be done.

Let him explain why the NPR poll and the AP poll did not add them up the academically honest way Bobert says they should be added.

Why hasn't he "shredded" those polls?

All of his "facts" consist of personal opinions not backed up by any examples or anything from another source.

Challenging someone to go somewhere and do something is not a fact. It is not proof of anything. It is merely a lame blowhard excuse for not being able to produce anything to support their assertions.

Bolviation by Bobert.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Sep 12 - 08:56 AM

The NPR poll is honest in it's findings... It presented 4 choices, just as the one you have presented and reported the percentages for all four...

Your poll also presented 4 choices but rather than report the four they lumped two of the four into a single choice as if the "Somewhat believe" wasn't even asked unless one digs into the study... That is dishonest, Sawz...

The honest title would have been "58% believe of somewhat believe..."...

I guess you never went to college and learned the concept of academic honesty...

Oh, and just because some polling company is willing to present their findings in a dishonest manner doesn't make it right... That's what polling companies do very well...

It's up to an informed population to know when someone is not telling the whole truth...

I caught them and I've caught you parroting their dishonesty... Tough beans... Get over it...

You are the one insisting that the earth is flat... Not me...

The only thing worse than a moron is one who is proud to be a moron and you fit the bill quite nicely, Sawz...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Sep 12 - 10:30 AM

Yo, Chongz...

Where's my cut???

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 24 Sep 12 - 11:26 AM

Yer doin' a fabulous job, Bobertz. And so is Sawzaw. I would cut you guys in, but that might be seen as "conflict of interest", and I am runnin' for office, y'know...

Still, if you was to drop the stuff about poopflingin', I think we might be able to come to some mutually beneficial arrangement.

- Chongo

p.s. Watch out for Charlie the Langur. He's been makin' dark comments about "takin' care of" you and Sawzaw. I don't think he means gettin' you guys Meals on Wheels.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,Jim Knowledge
Date: 24 Sep 12 - 11:50 AM

I `ad one of those geezers `ooz a member of "Occupy" whatever that is when it`s at `ome. Fortunately `e could pay `is fare cos `e`d just come from the Social Security Office.
I said, "Where to then, Chum?"
`e said, "Morning Jim. Could you take me up to Trafalgar Square, I`m joining the "sit in"".
I said, "Sit-in? What we moaning about thise time? Pigeons messing on Nelson?"
`e said, " Nah Jim. It`s in support of this Mansion Tax proposal. All those with big `ouses `ave gotta pay more tax. At the moment it aint fair. They live like lords, stash their readies off-shore and get away with it. It`s one law for the rich and one law for the poor"
I said, "You`re wrong there mate. It`s two laws for the rich and NONE for the poor!!"

Whaddam I Like??


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Sep 12 - 12:11 PM

You sound like a Howling Eddie Cranshaw fan to me. Are you familiar with his great song "Scum Are Only Scum"?


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Sep 12 - 09:36 PM

I never heard of it, LH... Maybe you could provide a link... Sounds like my kinda song...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Sep 12 - 09:53 PM

Recordings of it are very hard to find, Bobert, but here are the lyrics:

Scum Are Only Scum! ( a mild protest song)

I play in all the street fairs
I fiddle and I hum
With my gitbox and fiddle
Which clearly pleases some
It pleases all the old folk
And it pleases homeless bums
But the ones it doesn't please
Are the fecking, bloody scum!

Because scum are only scum
They're ugly and they're daft
They know they're only scum
Without artistic craft
They're rotten stinking bleeders
Who all should get the shaft!
Let's sink them in the Channel
And provide no bloody raft!

Scum are fecking losers
Scum are stupid sods
If I could get me hands on them
I'd give 'em all the rod
I'd punch their ugly faces
I'd call 'em nasty names
I'd tell 'em all to go to hell
I'd set 'em all aflame

Because scum are only scum
They're ugly and they're daft
They know they're only scum
Without artistic craft
They're rotten stinking bleeders
Who all should get the shaft!
Let's sink them in the Channel
And provide no bloody raft!

Scum are stupid useless gits
Scum are bloody fools
They stand on other people's toes
They break Queensberry's rules
They will not share a bit of bread
They don't respect the poor
They eat in fancy restaurants
And act like bloody boors

Because scum are only scum
They're ugly and they're daft
They know they're only scum
Without artistic craft
They're rotten stinking bleeders
Who all should get the shaft!
Let's sink them in the Channel
And provide no bloody raft!

Don't dare to come around near me
If you're a bleedin' scum
For if you do I'll take my shoe
And plant it in your bum!
You might think that I am helpless
You'll find I'm bloody not!
I'll box your ears and black your eyes
You rotten scummy sot!

Because scum are only scum
They're ugly and they're daft
They know they're only scum
Without artistic craft
They're rotten stinking bleeders
Who all should get the shaft!
Let's sink them in the Channel
And provide no bloody raft!

I wish these rotten scum would die
And leave good folks alone
They poison every public place
'Cause they're got hearts of stone
Their lifestyle is contemptible
Their manners are obscene
They've all got little beady eyes
And their tongues are coated green!

Yes, scum are only scum
They're ugly and they're daft
They know they're only scum
Without artistic craft
They're rotten stinking bleeders
Who all should get the shaft!
Let's sink them in the Channel
And provide no bloody raft!

Howling Eddie Cranshaw, Folkways of Anglia 2009


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Sep 12 - 10:01 PM

Sounds like Mitt Romney...

B;~)


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Sep 12 - 10:04 PM

Howling Eddie would be shocked to hear you say that! He's a working class social revolutionary and trade unionist who despises people like Mitt Romney. He considers Billy Bragg, for instance, to be a corporate sellout.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Sep 12 - 10:07 PM

No, not eddie... But the scum...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Sawzaw
Date: 24 Sep 12 - 11:35 PM

Bobert is denying the fact that the NPR poll combined

STRONGLY APPROVE ................. 26%         
SOMEWHAT APPROVE ................. 23%
into
APPROVE .......................... 49%

Then it combined

SOMEWHAT DISAPPROVE .............. 10%
and
STRONGLY DISAPPROVE .............. 36%
into
DISAPPROVE ....................... 46%

Exactly like the Globescan poll.

He keeps shifting ground away from his statement "Somewhat agree and somewhat disagree are the same..." which is wrong. They are not the same.

The Globescan poll totals for agree and disagree were added up just like the NPR Poll.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Sawzaw
Date: 25 Sep 12 - 12:02 AM

I think you need to explain how bogus this poll is Bobert.

They took Strongly Approve, Somewhat Approve and Lean Approve and added them up to 56% approve. Bogus analysis according to you.

Questions:
Overall, please tell me whether you approve, disapprove, or neither approve nor disapprove of
the way Barack Obama is handling his job as president.
[IF "APPROVE," ASK:] Is that strongly approve or somewhat approve?
[IF "DISAPPROVE," ASK:] Is that strongly disapprove or somewhat disapprove?
[IF "NEITHER," DK NOR REFUSED ASK:] If you had to choose, do you lean more toward approving or disapproving of the way Barack Obama is handling his job as president?


Shred it Bobert, don't hold back, don't be a wimp.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Sep 12 - 01:21 AM

10. Do you approve or disapprove of the way Barack Obama is handling his job as President?
IF APPROVE OR DISAPPROVE, ASK: Would that be strongly (approve/disapprove), or just somewhat (approve/disapprove)?

This seems pertinent. The NPR first asks to you approve or not, then how much. That is different than initially presenting all four options.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 25 Sep 12 - 01:42 AM

To:
mkcarp@yahoo.com

Good Financial Advice


If you had purchased $1,000 of shares in Delta Airlines one year ago, you would have $49.00 today!


If you had purchased $1,000 of shares in AIG one year ago, you would have $33.00 today.


If you had purchased $1,000 of shares in Lehman Brothers one year ago, you would have $0.00.


BUT, if you had purchased $1,000 worth of beer one year ago, drank all the beer, then turned in the aluminum cans for the recycling refund, you would have received $214.00.


Based on the above, the best current investment plan is to drink heavily & recycle. It's called the 401.KEG plan.


And as a bonus, a recent study found that the average American walks about walks about 900 miles a year. Another study found that on average Americans drink 22 gallons of alcohol a year.


That means the average American gets 41 miles to the gallon.


Kind of makes you proud to be an American, doesn't it!


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Sep 12 - 01:51 AM

I don't think any of that is true GfS. For a start a thousand in Delta shares bought a year ago would be worth about $1,100 now. Its not an improvement when you pull BS out of someone else's butt.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Sawzaw
Date: 25 Sep 12 - 08:40 AM

Tevye: "If riches are a curse, may I be stricken with it
and never recover."


If I were a rich man,
Yubby dibby dibby dibby dibby dibby dibby dum.
All day long I'd biddy biddy bum.
If I were a wealthy man.
I wouldn't have to work hard.
Ya ha deedle deedle, bubba bubba deedle deedle dum.
If I were a biddy biddy rich,
Idle-diddle-daidle-daidle man.

I'd build a big tall house with rooms by the dozen,
Right in the middle of the town.
A fine tin roof with real wooden floors below.
There would be one long staircase just going up,
And one even longer coming down,
And one more leading nowhere, just for show.

I'd fill my yard with chicks and turkeys and geese and ducks
For the town to see and hear.
(Insert)Squawking just as noisily as they can. (End Insert)
With each loud "cheep" "squawk" "honk" "quack"
Would land like a trumpet on the ear,
As if to say "Here lives a wealthy man."

If I were a rich man,
Yubby dibby dibby dibby dibby dibby dibby dum.
All day long I'd biddy biddy bum.
If I were a wealthy man.
I wouldn't have to work hard.
Yubby dibby dibby dibby dibby dibby dibby dum.
If I were a biddy biddy rich,
Idle-diddle-daidle-daidle man.

I'd see my wife, my Golde, looking like a rich man's wife
With a proper double-chin.
Supervising meals to her heart's delight.
I see her putting on airs and strutting like a peacock.
Oy, what a happy mood she's in.
Screaming at the servants, day and night.

The most important men in town would come to fawn on me!
They would ask me to advise them,
Like a Solomon the Wise.
"If you please, Reb Tevye..."
"Pardon me, Reb Tevye..."
Posing problems that would cross a rabbi's eyes!

And it won't make one bit of difference if i answer right or wrong.
When you're rich, they think you really know!

If I were rich, I'd have the time that I lack
To sit in the synagogue and pray.
And maybe have a seat by the Eastern wall.
And I'd discuss the holy books with the learned men, several hours every day.
That would be the sweetest thing of all.

If I were a rich man,
Yubby dibby dibby dibby dibby dibby dibby dum.
All day long I'd biddy biddy bum.
If I were a wealthy man.
I wouldn't have to work hard.
Idle-diddle-daidle-daidle man.

Lord who mad the lion and the lamb,
You decreed I should be what I am.
Would it spoil some vast eternal plan?
If I were a wealthy man.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 25 Sep 12 - 11:30 AM

It's a joke, Jack.....take a red!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Sep 12 - 12:03 PM

"Based on the above, the best current investment plan is to drink heavily & recycle. It's called the 401.KEG plan."

That's brilliant, GfS! ;-D Christ, wait till Shane hears about this! After all, it is his basic approach to life. He calls it the "Freedom 35 Plan". He will be greatly encouraged by those statistics you posted.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 26 Sep 12 - 01:01 AM

Well thank you, Hawker!...It was a might effort of cut and pasting!!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 26 Sep 12 - 01:19 AM

Crappy joke.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 26 Sep 12 - 01:30 AM

Yeah, I gotta admit it wasn't as funny as 'Hope and Change'.......

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Sawzaw
Date: 26 Sep 12 - 09:29 AM

"after he knows he's wrong..."

Wrong about what Bobert?

"So, pdq... You don't want to answer my two simple questions???"

So Bobert... You don't want to answer a simple question???


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 26 Sep 12 - 09:32 AM

500!!!

500 points of bitter inanity!

Oh the humanity!

Worse than Sean Hannity!


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Sep 12 - 11:31 AM

Do the poor deserve their poverty? Republicans seem to think so! I get the impression they'd really like to just imprison them all, deport them, or perhaps seek a more immediate and "final solution" to the problem.

Look at what happened after Hurricane Katrina, for example.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 26 Sep 12 - 09:10 PM

Agreed, LH...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Sawzaw
Date: 27 Sep 12 - 01:28 AM

Bobert is the guy that knows he is wrong. His ego is in complete control of him so he can't admit it. He can't even say how I am wrong.

http://www.cdc.gov/healthyyouth/evaluation/pdf/brief23.txt

EVALUATION BRIEFS        No. 23 | July 2011        Evaluation Technical Assistance

Using Ordered Response Options To Collect Evaluation Data

This brief focuses on using ordered response options to collect evaluation data. It includes the definition of ordered response options; how to create good sets of options; how to analyze and present data collected from them; and advantages and disadvantages of using them on evaluation surveys.

If you decide to include a neutral option such as neither agree nor disagree, place this choice in the middle of the other options. The order of the responses should reflect a logical flow on the continuum as shown in the following example:
1.        Strongly agree.
2.        Somewhat agree.
3.        Neither agree nor disagree.
4.        Somewhat disagree.
5.        Strongly disagree.

Analyzing the Responses and Presenting the Results

When reporting the results from ordered response options, only report the number or percentage of people who chose an option and compare it to other option results.

Data can be simplified by combining categories. For example, strongly agree and agree can be collapsed into one category (agree) while disagree and strongly disagree can be collapsed into another category (disagree).


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 27 Sep 12 - 06:35 AM

""Data can be simplified by combining categories. For example, strongly agree and agree can be collapsed into one category (agree) while disagree and strongly disagree can be collapsed into another category (disagree).""

That is the part Bobert is objecting to, and IMHO he is right. It is of course VERY acceptable to the person who commissions the poll with an agenda, and the polling company which can thereby combine, or not combine, to achieve the desired result, which is then reported to the public, without information as to how it has been achieved.

Much, in fact, as Sawz did when he typed the thread title.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Sep 12 - 09:00 AM

Thank you, Don...

That's the point I have made over and over... And it's not based on just my opinion but the opinion of stats professors in general...

When you read stuff like "data can be simplified..." then hide your wallet and cover your ears because someone is either trying to steal your money or clog up your head with misinformation...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 27 Sep 12 - 12:47 PM

I'm afraid your down home locution is simply confusing poor old Sawz, but I can't help feeling that you two are not that terribly far apart in your thinking on this subject, and gradually (too gradually?) homing in on the same end.

I "somewhat" believe this thread is ready for closing, not by moderation, but by all round consent.

What d'ye say guys?

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Sep 12 - 02:28 PM

Should have never been opened...

B;~)


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Sep 12 - 04:52 PM

BTW, Don... Sawz and I started off with a 42% difference and we're still at a 42% difference...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 27 Sep 12 - 07:10 PM

Look on the bright side, Bobertz. Yer 58% in agreement with each other! ;-) And that's plenty enough to win an election. In fact, it would be called "a landslide".

- Chongo


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Sep 12 - 07:42 PM

Evidence that monkey's ain't taught math...

No, Chongz... We are in 100% disagreement and 0% agreement...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 27 Sep 12 - 07:48 PM

You callin' me stupid, Bobertz? You can't even tell the difference between an ape and a monkey, fer Chrissake! How stupid is that??? I've seen dogs that had more sense.

Anyways, it's impossible to be 100% in disagreement with anyone. I can vouch for this, cos I can recall a few things I have agreed with you about now and then over the years. Look at it this way...even a watch that don't work is still right twice a day.

- Chongo


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Sep 12 - 08:04 PM

Go grind your organ, Chongz...

You know less about math than Sawz but, hey??? That ain't sayin' nothin'...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 27 Sep 12 - 08:19 PM

Here's what I know about math, Bobertz. Put 2 morons together in one place, and the amount of trouble they will cause together is considerably more than the mere sum of their separate individual levels of idiocy. Figger it more like the square of their respective levels of idiocy. See what I'm gettin' at?

- Chongo


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Sep 12 - 08:59 PM

I can all but hear LH tellin' you what to write 'cause you wouldn't know what squarin' numbers is about than quantum physics... Ask LH what that means...

Like I said, "Go grind yer organ"...

BTW, square this!!!

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Sawzaw
Date: 27 Sep 12 - 09:22 PM

"That is the part Bobert is objecting to"

No. What Bobert is claiming is that somewhat agree means the same as somewhat disagree and hinging his "bogus" claim on that.

"Yo, Retard alum...

"Somewhat agree" and "somewhat disagree" are the same..."


They are not, Bobert is wrong. This is oblivious because in the examples of polls I have provided that added somewhat agree" and somewhat disagree to get a total of agree.

He has made a fool of himself by trying to change his claim so he can weasel out.

Bobert cannot see the difference because he, like George W, is incapable of looking at anything in any manner but black and white, good and evil, right and wrong...

Evidently Bobert got his diploma at Cracker Jacks U. and doesn't know jack shit about polls. He was nodding off and having hallucinations while the professor was explaining the difference between "Somewhat agree" and "somewhat disagree".

Otherwise he could produce something to back up his claim besides bloviation.

How about an example of a poll that adds things up your way Bobert?

It would be a simple thing to do for a highly educated person like you.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 28 Sep 12 - 05:17 AM

Christ, give me friggin' strength.

Here we go again.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 28 Sep 12 - 08:58 AM

Nah, Don...

I'm bored...

Plus, trying to use logic on the mentally challenged is futile...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 28 Sep 12 - 10:57 AM

Question: Is Sawzaw bonkers?

A. Somewhat agree
B. Partly agree
C. Whole heartedly agree
D. Part heartedly agree
E. Most heartily agree.
F. Without reservations agree
G. With a reservation to a trendy restaurant agree
H. In principle, agree
I. With no principles, agree
J. With Principal agree
K. With PTA agree
L. Strongly agree
M. Totally agree
N. Absolutely agree
O. Agree to infinity
P. Agree to infinity minus one
Q. Agree to infinity minus two.
R. Agree to infinity minus one and a half
S. Somewhat partly agree
T. Indifferently Agree
U. Minutely Agree
V. Arguably Agree (expected to be the most popular Mudcat Response)
W. Respectfully Agree (expected to be the least popular Mudcat Response)
X. What was the question again?
Y. Oh yeah, "Is sawz a nutjob?"
Z. Agree


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Sep 12 - 12:11 PM

Could you elaborate a little on that theme, Jack?

****

Well, Bobert, you've done it THIS time! Chongo is so angry that he says he's not talking to you.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 28 Sep 12 - 04:12 PM

Get it in writing, LH...

B;~)


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Sep 12 - 12:33 AM

Heh! (snort!) I knew you'd be really broken up about it.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,999
Date: 29 Sep 12 - 07:59 AM

How fortuitous. I was looking for a place to dump kitty litter and voila.

Good day to buy a lottery ticket.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Sawzaw
Date: 29 Sep 12 - 09:40 AM

Here it is in writing:


Yo, Retard alum...

"Somewhat agree" and "somewhat disagree" are the same...


This is not correct. It is wrong. Bobert is wrong.

Let him present something to support his claim.

And it's not based on just my opinion but the opinion of stats professors in general

His opinion of Stats professors opinions. How many does he know? He talks as if he knows a lot of them and has discussed the subject with them. He has a bad habit of projecting his opinions on others.

Which Stats professor designed the NPR poll that combined strongly agree and somewhat agree? He must have had an opinion that is different from Bobert's opinion.

The Self Righteous Bobert can't produce anything to support his claims except bloviation.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 29 Sep 12 - 09:51 AM

Bobert is pulling your leg. You keep sticking it out.

You are the coyote.

He is the roadrunner.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Sep 12 - 10:02 AM

Beep, beep...

B;~)


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Sep 12 - 10:08 AM

BTW, Chongz...

Just because you ain't talkin' to me does not absolve you of your agreement to cut me in on the bonus money from Charlie...

B:~)


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Stringsinger
Date: 29 Sep 12 - 10:32 AM

The issue is not that there are wealthy people. The issue is the exploitation of those who are not wealthy through the rich tax avoidance and in inordinate lobbying by corporate interests who buy and sell our government. Democracy is being bought and sold. hat's the issue.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Sawzaw
Date: 29 Sep 12 - 10:40 AM

And Jack is Bobert's water boy.

Good morning captain
Well, good morning to you s-i-i-i-r
Do you need another mule skinner?
Down on your new mud run?
Ha-ha, ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha
Hey-hey-hey-heeee-hee, he-he-he-he-he
He-he-he-he-he-he, he-he-he-he-he-he

Well, I'm an ol' mule skinner (yeah, you are)
Down from ol' Kentucky w-a-a-a-y
And I can make any mule listen
Or I won't accept your pay
He-he, hey-hey-hey-hey-hey-hey
Ha-ha, ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha
Hey-hey-hey-heeee-hee, he-he-he-he-he
He-he-he-he-he-he, he-he-he-he-he-he
Yeah!

Well, hey (hey) little waterboy
Who wants that waterboy, man?
Bring the buck-buck-bucket down
Weah-weah, ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha
Well, if you don't like your job
Then put the buck-buck-bucket down
Ha-ha, ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha
Hey-hey-hey-heeee-hee, he-he-he-he-he
He-he-he-he-he-he, he-he-he-he-he-he
Cha-cha-cha


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Sep 12 - 11:19 AM

I used to do that song in the 70s... Great song...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 29 Sep 12 - 11:29 AM

What do we do with a drunk coyote?
What do we do with a drunk coyote?
What do we do with a drunk coyote?
On Mudcat in the morning?

Who sticks out his leg in a reckless manner
Who sticks out his leg in a reckless manner
Who sticks out his leg in a reckless manner
To be pulled by a roadrunner!


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 29 Sep 12 - 12:29 PM

Bobertz? Okay, I have decided I am gonna talk to you again, cos it would not be fair to deny you the benefit of my great wisdom and experience, you bein' just a poor human hillbilly that is in need of help and advice from a higher species...

Now, regardin' you gettin' a share of Charlie's bonus money which is buildin' up into a real nice sum here....well...hmmm. The question is, do ya deserve it? Then too, if I give you a share I might be obliged to give Jack and Sawzaw a share too, seein' as how they are major contributors to the general hoo-hah here, same as you are.

That would leave a lot less for me. I'm not sure it makes sense from my end to do that.

The real question is, what have you done for me lately? I know Jack and Sawzaw ain't done a damn thing for me lately (if ever), so I can easily give them the kissoff without no hesitation or regrets, but what about you, Bobertz?

- Chongo


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 29 Sep 12 - 02:20 PM

Take off! Bushmeat!


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Sawzaw
Date: 30 Sep 12 - 09:02 AM

Here's part of a 'nanner for you Chongz.

Actually two partial 'nanners but one is more than half of a 'nanner the other is less than half of a 'nanner. You can choose either.

Will you choose the somewhat bigger one or the somewhat smaller one?

Oho, you chose the bigger one. Even chimps can tell the difference.

Somewhat does not confuse them at all.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 30 Sep 12 - 12:24 PM

I would choose the bigger one, dependin' on condition, of course. If the bigger one is somewhat bruised and the other one is undamaged, I might choose the smaller one. See...chimps can discern the finer differences between things and choose wisely, unlike humans who usually fall into predictable reflex behaviour of the silliest sort...like votin' for either the Democrats or the Republicans time and time again when both of 'em have disappointed over and over again in the past. Would a chimp be that dumb to keep playin' that same old, tired game? No way. A chimp would say, "The hell with these bozos!" and find a whole new solution. And that's where the APP comes in.

Just one simple example: America needs jobs, right? And everyone wants an equal chance to enjoy the fruits of a good life, right? Okay...so here's our proposal. We are gonna move some of the Rocky Mountains into the flatter parts of the country, like the MidWest. People get bored livin' in flat places, and that ain't fair. Everyone should get to look at a few mountains now and then to spice up the view. Okay...so movin' them mountains will be a huge job...one that will provide work for every unemployed person in the USA for at least the next 10 years.

You won't see the Big 2 parties makin' a proposal like that. They don't have the guts to!

But we chimps are not afraid to advance a radical plan to put America back to work, see? Vote for the APP in November and put a REAL chimp in the White House for a change, instead of a man in a suit who just pretends to be as bright as the average chimp!

- Chongo


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Don Firth
Date: 30 Sep 12 - 04:59 PM

Jayzuz!! I just spent about twenty minutes scanning through this thread!

I'll never get THAT twenty minutes back again! I coulda taken a short nap!!

Don Firth

P. S. Kinda reminded me of the times I click on something on my computer and the little thingy goes round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round. . . .

. . . and the program never does load and I have to hit the "Reset" button.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 30 Sep 12 - 06:07 PM

""Which Stats professor designed the NPR poll that combined strongly agree and somewhat agree? He must have had an opinion that is different from Bobert's opinion.""

Are you really dim enough to think that all these polls are compiled and managed by stats professors Sawz?

There aren't that many stats professors in the world!

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 30 Sep 12 - 07:06 PM

And if there were, it would be a friggin' disaster.

- Chongo


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Sep 12 - 08:22 PM

Fuck this thread... I am still tryin' to get over the Redskins/Bucs game... So, the 'Skins go and get a failuer of a kicker from Baltimore... No, worse than that... He sucked so bad there that they fired him... So what to do???

Huh???

So the brilliant brain trust in the Redskins office say, "Hey, lets get this flunkie"...

So he misses the first 3 field goal attempts this afternoon and the game came down to a final kick... I was thinking, "This guy is going to miss so bad that it might end up out of bounds or in my back yard but...

...he finally made one...

Redskins win... Or didn't lose...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 30 Sep 12 - 09:36 PM

The Panthers got a guy from the CFL. He is doing OK. There are more kickers up there and I am sure they would rather have hard currency than Canadian Tire money.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Sep 12 - 09:47 PM

And what's with Cam???

Blew that game...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Oct 12 - 03:55 PM

How are the Forty Whiners doing these days?


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Oct 12 - 06:46 PM

Cam and the defense. 59 yard pass.... sigh.... I would have had Tolbert run it though.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Oct 12 - 07:00 PM

Yeah, fullbacks are paid to run the ball... And block for tailbacks...

QBs ain't...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Oct 12 - 07:15 PM

If everything I know about (American) football were put into a book, it would be about a page and a half long. ;-) With LARGE type. And one or two pictures.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Oct 12 - 07:21 PM

Well then Little Hawk, thank you for your invaluable contribution to the conversation about American football.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Oct 12 - 07:23 PM

Chongz's book would be three pages with no pics, LH... Man, you are pathetic... No, make that 58% pathetic...

B;~)


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Oct 12 - 10:37 PM

It seems like a pointless game to me, guys. A game for meatheads. I remember being forced to play it a few times in high school gym class, and I hated it. I'd rather have been sucking on an old shoe, frankly.

However, my friend Raptor absolutely LOVES the Forty-Niners. He has Forty-Niners memorabilia all over his house. That's why I made a pun based on their name. He sometimes calls them the "Forty Winos" when he's joking...but the "Forty Whiners" sounds more like their real name, cos it has the "ers" sound at the end.

As for Chongo, he's not much into football. It's gorillas who really go for football, generally. Chimps much prefer baseball. Chongo is an old White Sox fan. He was beside himself with joy when they finally won the World Series in 2005.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 05:14 AM

Well, I suspect this thread has well and truly drifted away from its original thrust.
In the UK, we have a perculiar stituation regarding whether the rich deserve their wealth because the Queen - probably the most admired woman in the country - with a 70% approval rating - is also filthy rich, and is indeed, the richest woman in the land.
Of course, this should mean, that none of those 70% who approve of the Queen, should have the bloody cheek to criticise the bank directors, star footballers etc for also being rich! But they do!


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 08:01 AM

""Well then Little Hawk, thank you for your invaluable contribution to the conversation about American football.""

And there was I, thinking this conversation was about the rich, and whether they deserved their wealth.

We live and learn, eh LH?

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 09:23 AM

Well, the Queen throws some righteous parties... I mean, millions of people line the streets and, gee, ain't that worth somethin'???

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Sawzaw
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 10:11 AM

Well Well Well. It had to happen.

Bobert has done had a wardrobe malfunction and here he is with his ass hanging out trying to prove something with no proof.

It ain't too attractive neither. All scrawny and pasty. Even Chongz has to turn his head away in disgust.

JTS and Don are workin' their self to death pickin' Boss Hogg's Boberts cotton [his terminology] down on his plantation but it still ain't workin'.

We are supposed to accept his opinions as "facts" like the gold plated M16 Rumsfeld gave to Saddam along with all kinds of unspecified booty and selling him the bad gas he used on the Kurds. He couldn't produce crap to support those "facts" even though he promised he would.

Now he has do divert attention away from his most recent failed bloviation once again with football.

You sure you don't have a bridge to sell us Bobert?


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 10:17 AM

"Well then Sawzaw, thank you for your invaluable contribution to the conversation about American football."


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,999
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 10:52 AM

Climate's what ya hope for; weather's what ya get.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 11:11 AM

The world is full of people who look down their noses in pity at all those who are so foolish as to disagree with them about something...about anything, in fact. And they're all mutually looking at each other that way. Thus does the human ego strut and preen for a few short hours on its precious little stage, regarding itself as the King of Creation, fearing its own imminent demise, regreting and denying its absolute smallness in the face of life, blithering on in the void of its own insatiable hunger and its ravening desire to either dominate or destroy.

- Meditations on the Foibles of Homo Sapiens, Volume III by Albert Chamois, translated from the Chimpanzee West African patois, 1922.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Sawzaw
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 12:16 PM

Do football Players deserve their wealth?

1. Drew Brees ($49.4 million) Salary

2. Peyton Manning ($42.4 million)

3. Haloti Ngata ($37.3 million)

4. Larry Fitzgerald ($36.8 million)

5. Ndamukong Suh ($36 million)

___Strongly Agree

___Somewhat Agree

___I need to know if they support Obama first

___Somewhat Disagree

___Strongly Disagree


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 04:57 PM

No, none of them should be making that kind of money when so many retired football players are out there beat all the hell and living like refugees... The NFL needs to spend as much as it currently spends (or more) on players but spread it around better and take care of people after they leave...

My ol' buddy, Pat Ficher, who played corner-back for the Washington Redskins walked like an 80 year old man when he was 50... The NFL beat the crud outta people and then discards them...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Sawzaw
Date: 03 Oct 12 - 09:04 AM

Corner Back? Do they sit in the corner or something?

They get paid all that big money to save up for a retirement which they promptly blow.

As for the beating up, they do that to each other on a voluntary basis.

So that makes them victims of something?

Some of them manage their money and end up rich. Some piss it away.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Oct 12 - 09:51 AM

Pat Fisher never made those big bucks...

Nor did any of those old timers... Johnny U rode public transportation... Mickey Mantle used to the subway to get to the ballparks...

I ain't sayin' that they don't deserve to make decent money... And the average career is only about 5 years (if that) so given that they will pay physically for the rest of their lives they need to be paid decent money... I think a $2M-$3M a year cap would be fine as long as there was also a pension plan and health insurance for life that goes with it...

My problem with the system is that a lot of football players ain't the sharpest knives in the drawer and are are taken advantage of their entire playing life... Especially in college where they don't come out knowing much more about making good decisions about money than if they never went to college... Then the agents take their hand and advantage of them and then they get hurt and they are broke and disabled and no education to fall back on...

The NFL makes billion$$$ a year off the sacrifices these men make and I whole-heartedly believe that the NFL should be the one assuming "personal responsibility" for the health and well-being of it's players...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Oct 12 - 01:22 PM

apes-are-monkeys-deal-with-it

Never try to teach logic to an ape. It annoys the ape and annoyed apes sometimes bite people's faces off.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Stringsinger
Date: 03 Oct 12 - 05:55 PM

A general question so, define wealth. How rich?

Most American's are wealthy compared to other less privileged countries.

How much rich do they deserve?

Ask the 58% if they would like their social security and medicare cut to
go into the pockets of the rich?

That's the trouble with polls.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Oct 12 - 06:09 PM

Polls are bullshit when they use language that can mean different things to different people...

The only good polls are the ones where there are distinct choices...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 03 Oct 12 - 07:12 PM

Hmmm. Well, Jack, accordin' to yer chart there on that page ya linked, I am now free to say to any human being that bugs me, "Shut up, you damn, dirty ape!"

So...THIS is what it feels like to be Charlton Heston! ;-D Ook! Ook!

- Chongo


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Sawzaw
Date: 04 Oct 12 - 07:34 AM

Chongo has a somewhat full bag of peanuts that he has saved up.

He is in the top 1% of peanut owners in the Chimp world.

If other Chimps with less peanuts than him do not take part of his bag of peanuts, it amounts to giving him more peanuts according to Liberal Chimps who have no concept of personal property.

Except theirs that is. They believe what is mine is mine and what is yours is mine too. It is unfair for you to have more peanuts than I do.

Things are very simple in the world of Chimps.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Oct 12 - 09:02 AM

Liberals seem to believe that if you tax the well off enough, you can raise everyone above the average income.


Liberals appear to be people who think that everyone can be above average.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Oct 12 - 09:10 AM

No, liberals are pissed off that the federal government has been in bed with union busting goons for the last three decades and all but killed off the middle class...

The average working stiff's income increase (after inflation) over the last 30 years has flat lined while the average income of the upper 1% has been 300%...

1/2 of Americans now live at 125% of poverty ***or less***....

These are the facts and point to a nation in decline...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Oct 12 - 09:56 AM

Fewer peanuts


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Oct 12 - 10:10 AM

Bobert,

The effect of inflation, as caused by the present government spending policies, has a far greater effect on the increase in poverty than the increase in income of a small part of the population- yet you are fine with that.

As for unions, they are one of the main reasons over the last 30 years for the inflation that has increased the poverty levels.

If the top 1% has seen an increase in income of 300% ( unproven) then they have kept up with the inflation caused by union contracts and pensions. Are you going to demand that THEY be taxed as well?


What do YOU consider to be a fair percentage of real income that should be paid in taxes?


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Oct 12 - 10:27 AM

"What do YOU consider to be a fair percentage of real income that should be paid in taxes? "

What the heck do you mean by real income?


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Oct 12 - 03:03 PM

The thread title is misleading. The point is that people who live by fraud, instutionalized corruption, ponzi schemes, and outrageous exploitation of their fellow human beings do not deserve their wealth.

This would include some of the rich. It would not include various others among the rich. There's no point simply asking the question "Do the rich deserve their wealth?", because it's a stupid question. It lumps all rich people together as if they were all the same, and they're not.

It's as stupid and pointless as asking, "Do Republicans deserve to live?" or "Do Democrats deserve to own minivans?"

Ask a stupid question? You'll get a stupid answer. So what you have in that poll is 58% of the people who gave a stupid answer to a colossally stupid question. ;-) And 42% who gave a different stupid answer to the same colossally stupid question. There IS no intelligent or useful way of responding to such a poll, except to refuse to take part in it.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Oct 12 - 03:09 PM

Well, that knocks out 90% of 'um, LH...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Oct 12 - 03:18 PM

Yessir! It certainly does.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Oct 12 - 04:05 PM

There are a few people here—and in the world at large—who keep intoning like a mantra, "Liberals believe this and liberals believe that," but who don't really have a clue as to what the word "liberal" means, especially as a philosophical position and as a political position, or what those of the liberal persuasion really believe. They ignorantly throw it around as if it were a curse word.

Stoopud!!

When I was a kid, my mother once told me, "If you don't want to make a complete fool of yourself, you'd better learn what a word means before you start using it."

Good advice, folks!!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Oct 12 - 08:47 PM

Most people just use words to mean whatever they want them to mean, Don. (within some reasonable limitations)

For instance, everyone here who has a favorite hobbyhorse for attacking religion uses the word "God" to mean what they want it to mean (something stupid), just like rightwingers and Republicans use "liberal" or "socialist" to mean what they want it to mean (something stupid), and just like Democrats use "teapublican" to mean what they want it to mean (something stupid).

No further inquiry is made in any of these three cases, because there's no desire to inquire further...only a desire to attack and condemn.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Oct 12 - 12:17 AM

Except, of course, for those who know what these words mean. And there are a few around here.

There are college courses, usually in the Philosophy Department, in Ethics and Political Philosophy. I've had a few of those. . . .

Which is why I said what I said.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Oct 12 - 12:28 AM

Oh, I'm not taking issue with what you said, Don. It's a point well worth making. I was just adding to it, that's all.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: GUEST,999
Date: 05 Oct 12 - 11:16 AM

Mitt's 47%.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Sawzaw
Date: 05 Oct 12 - 11:14 PM

"1/2 of Americans now live at 125% of poverty ***or less***"

Thanks Obama


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Sawzaw
Date: 05 Oct 12 - 11:54 PM

"a nation in decline"

Yer doin' a heckuva job there Barry.

By the way I couldn't help but notice your net worth has gone up to around $11,830,000.00 while the average American's net worth has decreased.

Do you deserve it?

Are you subject to Obamacare? Is Congress?

Just asking.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Oct 12 - 08:18 AM

Right stat, wrong analysis, as per usual...

This decline began under Reagan and was pretty steady until Bush when it took a nose dive...

As much as the usual Obama haters would like to pin this on Obama, it ain't on Obama...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Sawzaw
Date: 07 Oct 12 - 10:20 AM

"This decline began under Reagan and was pretty steady"

Got any numbers or stats to go along with that Mr. Math Expert?


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Sawzaw
Date: 07 Oct 12 - 10:42 AM

Here are is the raw data from the US Census Bureau Bobert.

Please crunch the numbers and tell us how it supports your statement that: "This decline began under Reagan and was pretty steady until Bush when it took a nose dive"


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Oct 12 - 11:41 AM

The stats are all over the internet, Sawz...

Google "working class wages 1982 -2012" and leave the few alone that are obviously Obama haters...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Oct 12 - 12:00 PM

BTW, Sawz... Google "Belmont & Fishtown" by Charles Murray and read the entire piece ***for overall content*** which means no cherry picking and/or taking things out of context...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 12:48 AM

Right!

And when you're done with that, Sawzaw, read Chongo Chimp's manifesto on Primate and Human Rights. I predict you'll be moved to tears, and will rush out to vote for the APP in an advance poll.

Chongo believes that EVERYONE deserves an equal kick at the can when they are young and starting out in life. What does that require? It requires an equal place on the start line of life, that's what...meaning decent housing for everyone, gainful employment for everyone at a decent wage, free education for everyone right through university, and free (and equal quality) medical care for everyone. Some would mislabel that "socialism", but Chongo calls it...justice!!! It's what any sane and responsible society would do...specially if it wants to prosper and have a good future.

And you can't do it when your primary emphasis is on fighting wars of aggression, keeping up the world's most bloated military production, and getting rich off antisocial Ponzi schemes.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 09:09 AM

Actually, Chongz got that idea from Carlos Castaneda, LH, when Carlos told Don Juan to have someone kick Don's Juan's son's ass because everyone needs a good ass whuppin' in life...

Either way, I agree...

I sho nuff had 'um...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Sawzaw
Date: 09 Oct 12 - 09:16 AM

Apparently Bobert is not the math guru he claims he is.

You do use Excel don't you Bobert?

You can make a graph or chart directly from the Data.

Even Chongz uses Excel to keep track of his peanut holdings.


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 09 Oct 12 - 10:39 AM

1-800-BETTYFORD...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Oct 12 - 12:12 PM

I just tried dialing that 800 number you posted, Bobert. Of course, you can only go so far as the "Y" in BETTY...but anyway, I dialed it, and it went through! But then it just kept ringing and ringing and ringing. They won't pick up. I finally hung up after it rang about 35 times.

What is your explanation?


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 09 Oct 12 - 12:45 PM

The Betty Ford Clinic has software on their phone system that detects the real addicted people from the impostors... Apparently, in spite of your fascination with monkeys and Dylan, you must not meet their strict requirements or you would be getting thru...

Keep workin' on those addiction, however, LH and maybe one day you will be right up there with Sawz...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Oct 12 - 01:14 PM

I sure hope so! I was expecting to get through and didn't! You know what that feels like? It's sort of like telephonus interruptus...


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Sawzaw
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 09:29 PM

Bobert: "I have no problem with statistics"

So why can he only respond with Betty Ford?

It must be a frequent retreat for him.

I think they only treat drug addiction and alcoholism.

Is there anywhere you can get your blowhardism treated Bobert?


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 09:50 PM

You are addicte3d to me, Sawz...

You have been for years... You were addicted to me as Old Guy... You were addicted to me as Dickey and you are still addicted to me as Sawzalll...

If you go back thru all my posts one of your three handles here have had a proclivity toward...

...me!!!

Do you deny that you were both Old Guy and Dickey???

No, you don't... I know you were and you know you were...

So...

...your addiction...

Call Betty Ford and quick...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Sawzaw
Date: 11 Oct 12 - 08:32 AM

Dear Bobert:

You do know that the Betty Ford center is for alcohol and drug addiction don't you?

You are aware that you are fond of bragging about smoking dope and guzzling moonshine aren't you?

You are aware that you brag about your math skills and knowledge about stats aren't you?

You are aware that you are a blowhard that never backs up any of your assertions with any proof aren't you?


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Oct 12 - 11:45 AM

Are you guys both aware that Chongo can provide a gym, a boxing ring, 2 sets of gloves, and a Baboon named Chachi for a referee?

"Won't you please come to Chicago?" (la, la, la...)


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Sawzaw
Date: 12 Oct 12 - 10:26 PM

Chicago, Chicago, that toddling town
Chicago, Chicago, I'll show you around, I love it
Bet your bottom dollar, you'll lose the blues in Chicago
Chicago, the town that Billy Sunday couldn't shut down

On State Street, that great street, I just want to say
They do things that they don't do on Broadway
They have the time, the time of their life
I saw a man, he danced with his wife in Chicago
Chicago, my home town

Chicago, Chicago, that toddling town
Chicago, Chicago, I'll show you around, I love it
Bet your bottom dollar, you'll lose the blues in Chicago
Chicago, the town that Billy Sunday could not shut down

On State Street, that great street, I just want to say
They do things that they never do on Broadway, say
They have the time, the time of their life
I saw a man and he danced with his wife in Chicago
Chicago, Chicago that's my home town


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Oct 12 - 10:33 PM

Chachi is a good ref. He'll check your gloves to make sure you didn't put anything hard in them, get you to shake hands first, and no hitting below the belt or ear-biting!


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Subject: RE: BS: 58% Say The Rich Deserve Their Wealth
From: Sawzaw
Date: 12 Oct 12 - 11:13 PM

Bad Bad Leroy Brown

Well the South side of Chicago
Is the baddest part of town
And if you go down there
You better just beware
Of a man named Leroy Brown
Now Leroy's more than trouble
You see, he stand about six foot four
All those downtown ladies
Call him treetop lover
All the men just call him Sir

And he's bad, bad Leroy Brown
Baddest man in the whole damn town
Badder than old King Kong
And meaner than a junkyard dog

Now Leroy, he's a gambler
And he likes his fancy clothes
And he likes to wear
His diamond rings
In front of everybody's nose
He's got a custom Continental
He's got an El Dorado, too
He's got a .32 gun
In his pocket for fun
He got a razor in his shoe

And he's bad, bad Leroy Brown
Baddest man in the whole damn town
Badder than old King Kong
And meaner than a junkyard dog

Well, Friday 'bout a week ago
Leroy shootin' dice
And at the edge of the bar
Sat a girl name Doris
And, oh that girl looked nice
Well, he cast his eyes upon her
And the trouble soon began
And Leroy Brown had learned a lesson
'Bout a-messin'
With the wife of a jealous man

And he's bad, bad Leroy Brown
Baddest man in the whole damn town
Badder than old King Kong
And meaner than a junkyard dog

Well, those two men took to fightin'
And when they pulled them from the floor
Leroy looked like
A jigsaw puzzle
With a couple of pieces gone

And he's bad, bad Leroy Brown
Baddest man in the whole damn town
Badder than old King Kong
And meaner than a junkyard dog

Yeah, he was badder than old King Kong
And meaner than a junkyard dog


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