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Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer

Related threads:
Dave Bulmer-related enquiry (105)
Bill Leader / Trailer Records (12)
Obit: The LATE Dave Bulmer (August 2013) (29)
Dave Bulmer - Address (86)
Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (6) (169)
master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?] (139)
morality of collecting (282)
Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer (367) (closed)
Photo of Bulmer required (24)
Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5) (88) (closed)
Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (4) (122) (closed)
'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3 (124) (closed)
'Celtic / Bulmer' aborted Part 3 (12) (closed)
'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Pt 2 (96) (closed)
The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga (161) (closed)


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Subject: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,Litto
Date: 31 Jul 12 - 11:13 AM

Hi, I'm a new Mudcat member and I'm writing a book about Bill Leader - I don't know why nobody has done it before - and would welcome anecdotes, appreciations, brickbats and any Leader-related information from fellow Mudcatters.
>
Now, this also involves tracking the fate of Bill's Trailer and Leader labels, and this trail leads directly to Celtic Music supremo Dave Bulmer. Similarly, has anyone got any Bulmer stories? This, towards a Dave Bulmer Dossier which could form a feature of the book. Here is a Leader/Bulmer hotline - 0161 226 5461 (my name is Mike) - to ring and establish contact.
>
Incidentally, to finance the project, I've lately acquired over 1000 folk LPs from the collection of the late Ian Chappell (an outstanding collector, based in Hampshire), with the intention of selling some doubles and others on eBay. My account is one-for-every-fair-and-rainy-day and Mudcatters will receive a discount. Thanks...
>


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: G-Force
Date: 31 Jul 12 - 11:22 AM

Put Bulmer in the filter box, set the timescale to All and hit Refresh.

Then do the same with Celtic Music.

The whole sorry saga will come up.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,Silas
Date: 31 Jul 12 - 11:40 AM

You will have to stand back for a month or two for all the threads to load....

Have you spoken to Bill?


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 Jul 12 - 11:53 AM

One key question underlying all this
[and it need not be made public as long as the 'right' people know answers]

is -

What is the condition of any surviving master tapes;
and what archival procedures are in place
to ensure future preservation for optimum quality professional state of the art digital transfer ?

Likewise, the state of unplayed 'mint' safety copy vinyl LPs if no tapes exist for particular titles ?


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Betsy
Date: 31 Jul 12 - 06:33 PM

It's a crying shame that these two names are(sadly)linked.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Ross Campbell
Date: 31 Jul 12 - 08:18 PM

punkfolkrocker - I think I mentioned the following on another thread -

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PEOPLES-CAROL-LEADER-GRAYSLEEEVE-FOLK-LP-YORKSHIRE-/130739153289?pt=UK_Records&hash=item1e70a92989 (£29.99 + £3.50) is a typical offering from seller "yourpricemusic" currently on eBay - click on the "See other items " for a list of over 200 albums from this seller. About half of these come under the "folk" heading, and a fair proportion of those are from the former bankrupt stocks of Leader, Highway etc.

Scrolling to the bottom of the above listing shows that "yourpricemusic" has a business name of "Celtic Visions", trading from North Works, Hookstone Park, Harrogate, North Yorkshire, HG2 7DB United Kingdom.

It seems obvious that the "unplayed 'mint' safety copy vinyl LPs" you hope still exist are now up for sale. As others have pointed out, even if you buy the last available copy, you still don't have the right to release it to the world.

Ross


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 31 Jul 12 - 11:12 PM

As Silas and G-Force point out, Dave Bulmer is the featured villain here at Mudcat--the mere mention of his name sends small children under the the bed, curdles milk, and brings out the pitchforks. It is a sad testimony to the collapse of the legal system that the man still roams the streets.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 01 Aug 12 - 03:01 AM

The legal system is not at fault, he acquired the rights perfectly lawfully and he is not obliged to do anything with them. Bill Leader and the musicians themselves could also be criticised for not agreeing more rigorous contracts; but they were more innocent times, there was a great deal of mutual trust, and I don't suppose anyone envisaged the circumstances arising. And if Bulmer hadn't acquired them, there's no guarantee that the recordings would have been reissued, the tapes might just have been wiped and reused.

His moral obligations to the musicians, Nic Jones especially, and the music world at large are a different matter. I am mystified why in his own self-interest he did not release at least some of the more popular recordings, for which there is clearly a demand and which could have been commercially successful. I can only speculate that he has some kind of grudge against the folk world and that this is his way of getting revenge.

But all this has been said before, and at much length. Good luck trawling the threads on this topic, hope you've got plenty of time on your hands!


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Aug 12 - 03:16 AM

With respect that is exactly how the legal system is at fault. What there should be is a partial reversion of rights to the artist if there is not a release reasonably sufficient to satisfy demand within a reasonable period of time - AND there should be a public interest exemption from copyright generally.

Additionally the insolvency loophole should be closed, so that the obligation to pay royalties to the artist/composer is an encumbrance on the rights. At present (unless the contract effectively specifies otherwise)if the company that contracted the artist/composer goes broke and the liquidator sells the rights to a further company, the further company has no obligation to pay royalties to the contracted parties who retain only a valueless right to sue the insolvent company.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 01 Aug 12 - 03:50 AM

You can post questions on eBay sales pages; I posted one on the "Celtic Visions" pages where he was selling mint copies of Bright Phoebus, Ray Fisher's Bonny Birdy and a couple of others, asking why he wasn't re-releasing them, in consultation with & with royalties paid to the artists or their next-of-kin.

I got a reply by email almost immediately:

im sorry to be blunt, but you are clearly showing your ignorance in these matters you really should not believe every thing you read on the internet.
Two of the 4 albums you have messaged about are available on cd and have been for years! in fact bright phoebus had a radio 4 program all about how it was "lost" and is was proved on air that it was not. you might not be able to get them down at hmv but that's not our fault, try and get obscure jazz in hmv, you cant find it! some of these albums are not on cd, why is this? because they never sold enough, pouring money into a record that didn't sell is a bit stupid no? finally why are we selling the vinyl on ebay, because there are a few people out there who actually want these records, quite often overseas in country's like japan. in stead of trying to vilify us please do a bit of research and a bit of critical thinking...
perhaps if people had actually bought the albums when they were released the situation would not be so.

So there you go - a few of the Leader/Trailer albums are available, therefore they're not 'lost'. (They're available through channels like Amazon Marketplace, they're pressed on CD-R and cheaply packaged, and no artist royalties are paid (quite legally, as Richard says) - but they *are* available.) And the ones that aren't available, well, nobody wanted them anyway.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,Litto
Date: 01 Aug 12 - 05:28 AM

Well I seem to have put the cat among the pigeons here.

Silas, yes I have spoken to Bill. Our interviews are lengthy and ongoing and will be the backbone of the book. They turn up really unexpected snippets. I didn't know, for example, that the address on all the old Topic Records - 27 Nassington Road, London, NW3 - was also home to Ivor Cutler.

So are the LPs Bulmer sells on eBay as 'yourpricemusic' originals or repressings? Originals presumably although stocks must be running low of the more popular items (Nic Jones, Bright Phoebus), and he does own a pressing plant, I believe. So why does he categorise them as 'new'?

Oh dear! I chanced to hear a minute (all that I could bear) of Surface by Cathy Lesurf. Can we lay that crime at his door too?


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Aug 12 - 05:53 AM

I assume you have contacted Reg Hall and Dave Bland, both long-time collegues and friends of Bill.
Also Prof R.S. (Bob) Thomson, now (I assume still) in the Dept of English At Gainesville University, Florida, though he may have retired.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 01 Aug 12 - 06:25 AM

Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer is still on the Musician's Union watchlist as of their Summer 2012 issue of the Musician. (ie artists are advised to contact MU before dealing with him).

RtS
No axe to grind, not a musician, as anyone who has heard me will confirm!


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,Silas
Date: 01 Aug 12 - 07:46 AM

Well Litto, if you are new here then you wouldn't know, but if you start any thread with the name 'Bulmer' in it......


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 01 Aug 12 - 08:48 AM

I'll say it yet again on one of these threads.

The expensive "Bright Phoebus" CD I purchased in all innocence off ebay
was not a CDR but actually a factory presed silver disc
with barebones but apparently properly printed artwork


.. and on first impression the couple of tracks I quickly sampled seemed 'ok' HiFi audio listening
on my small desk top monitors


Until I made time to sit and enjoy it with full attention on a good CD player & studio quality headphones.

That's when I was dismayed to experience dreadful distortions on Lal Waterson's vocal dynamic peaks.

I have not played the CD since - it's a shoddy audio product and a complete waste of money.

Until informed otherwise I presume it is an amateurish digital transfer,
using low grade equipment, of either a worn out tape or a poor condition vinyl LP.

It is definitely not the state of the art digital transfer and CD mastering
that this LP deserves and should receive
from today or tomorrows most capable & technologically equipped specialist professional digital transfer engineers.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 01 Aug 12 - 08:50 AM

CORRECTION: "The expensive "Bright Phoebus" CD I purchased in all innocence off ebay"

sorry mistyping; not ebay, I meant Amazon.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Good Soldier Schweik
Date: 01 Aug 12 - 10:38 AM

And the ones that aren't available, well, nobody wanted them anyway."
is there any proof in the above statement?highly unlikely. the man SHOULD BE AVOIDED , why else would the MU HAVE A WARNING ABOUT HIM


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,Litto
Date: 01 Aug 12 - 10:54 AM

Thanks for the pointers, Jim. Yes, I need to arrange an interview with Reg Hall as a matter of urgency. Dave Bland and Bob Thomson I didn't know about. Also, I need to speak to Gloria Leader, Karl Dallas, and Helen Leader. Who else? Oh, Dave and Toni Arthur, Bob Pegg. I tell you, the project is expanding and expanding.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 01 Aug 12 - 11:09 AM

Dave Bland lives in Halifax. While there, be sure to speak to Pete Coe on the subject.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: selby
Date: 01 Aug 12 - 11:15 AM

You should also interview Dave Bulmer on the grounds of consistency
Keith


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 01 Aug 12 - 11:33 AM

For those who apparently missed it, I was being droll about the legal system. The funniest thing about this ongoing saga is that no one has a sense of humor about it.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 01 Aug 12 - 11:48 AM

There is nothing remotely "humorous" about the Bulmer impasse but it is indeed ironic that artists involved are deprived of an income from potential royalties - even Mr DB himself loses out by behaving like a prat in the manger though doing nothing actually illegal for reasons which are unfathomable.

Yes, you should interview him and see if you get any further than the Lost Leaser broadcast about Bright Phoebus.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,Punkfolkrocker
Date: 01 Aug 12 - 12:06 PM

"no one has a sense of humor about it."

Maybe because there's too great a sense of overwhelming despondency....????

Normally I'm an 'if you don't laugh you'll cry kinda guy'
much to a lot of mudcatters annoyance.

But when it comes to precious valuable cultural heritage archives
such as movies and music and literature etc
being lost permanently
because of petty business disputes, stubborn bitter stupidity, and short term profiting asset stripping...

It's bad enough all the mass of early movies & sound recordings gone forever
because of inadequate fire-trap storage conditions
and short sighted willful destruction to clear space for new product..

Many would without doubt still be contenders for nicely profitable re-release.

Most others would surely still merit preservation in public digital 'museums' ???
[yes we know it's a complex minfield of rights & funding - but new technologies...]

You'd hope rights owners might have learnt from past unintelligent mistakes
and show some sense before it is all too late.

Even if only in their own potential financial self interest.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 01 Aug 12 - 12:15 PM

One does understand the frustration and annoyance that artists might experience, and doubtless, some of us would enjoy the listening to some of the recordings, but, as they are the product of another time, it is doubtful that they have much sales potential.

Still, nothing seems to get folks quite as excited as a "Dave Bulmer" thread. Maybe we could do a "Reality" show--


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 01 Aug 12 - 12:26 PM

The cost just isn't a valid excuse any more. If he wanted to, he could reissue a lot of this stuff very cheaply. It's probably true that the majority of the stuff has little commercial value, but there are recordings which are very much in demand, and not just the Nic Jones stuff. CD duplication is not expensive, and it would cost very little to remaster the most commercial recordings and issue them. Not that this would help the artists, but it would at least get the music back into circulation.

As for the less commercial recordings, they could simply be offered as downloads without going to the expense of manufacturing CDs. I'm sure many people would rather have the music, even at lower recording quality, than not at all.

If Bulmer isn't interested in doing it, I'm sure there are labels which would. However all this supposes that the tapes are still in usable condition, which people who know more about these things than I do seem to think is unlikely.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Good Soldier Schweik
Date: 01 Aug 12 - 12:57 PM

he is a wanker


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: selby
Date: 01 Aug 12 - 01:10 PM

"he is a wanker" is not a quality statement for someone who is doing a body of research/book.
This may be the opportunity in an interview for a book to find out what is happening, if DB declines to be interviewed then people can draw there own conclusions Guest Litto has asked for information, anecdotes on Bill Leader,not open season on DB again as someone pointed out earlier there is loads to read on the subject. I am sure someone like yourself GSS has interesting information to give rather than your 4 word original post


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,Litto
Date: 01 Aug 12 - 01:55 PM

Yes, I see now it was a mistake to include 'Bulmer' in the title, and thanks Selby for your thoughtfulness. I could take another tack (the book has endless possibilities). What do people know about Mervyn Plunkett? Indeed, if I changed my thread to Bill Leader/Walter Bulwer, would there be as many takers?


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Bernard
Date: 01 Aug 12 - 02:02 PM

Litto, your phone number indicates you're in the Manchester area... are you aware that Bill is a regular at the Oddfellows Arms, Niddleton, on a Monday evening along with John Howarth and friends?


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Bernard
Date: 01 Aug 12 - 02:05 PM

Erm, 'Niddleton' is an alternative spelling for 'Middleton', of course...!


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 01 Aug 12 - 02:10 PM

This thought is particularly entertaining:

"The cost just isn't a valid excuse any more. If he wanted to, he could reissue a lot of this stuff very cheaply."

It presupposes that "The Evil Dave" is accountable for not investing his money the way that you think he should.

I like this, too "As for the less commercial recordings, they could simply be offered as downloads without going to the expense of manufacturing CDs."

It ignores the fact that considerable expense is required to create the downloadable files in the first place, let alone the expense of putting it all online. And then of course, there is the effort of getting the appropriate publishing clearances, registering copyrights on the newly created materials, payment of appropriate royalties for online distribution.

Again, though I appreciate that the music is interesting, you can't save everything, because if you do, there isn't room for anything new.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Aug 12 - 02:19 PM

Now your talking Litto - I went to the same school as Walter Bulwer - not at the same time I hasten to add!


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 01 Aug 12 - 02:25 PM

Stim, it's not too naive to suggest there may be newly evolving
cost efficient alternative ideas
that could attempt to resolve the negative traditional business model issues you raise;
at least to a reasonable degree of compromise..

A positive rational discussion with the current rights holder and surviving recording artists would be most useful....?????????


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Kevin Sheils
Date: 01 Aug 12 - 03:20 PM

Litto

Unless I've missed it I can't find any way to contact you other than posting here.

As a guest on mudcat we cannot PM you. Either sign up so that PMs can happen or provide a way to contact. You say you are a new member but all that I see is "GUEST"

I have plenty of memories of Bill and the early days of Leader/Trailer - good ones. Some of which I hinted at in the Resonance radio show I did featuring vinyl tracks on Monday. My memories are not Bulmer related as they date from well before that time but I suggest that to get the best feedback you should provide some sort of contact other than this open forum.

I also share a radio show with Reg Hall but he won't be looking here and neither will many others so help yourself by providing contact info which we can pass on.

If you have and I've missed it sorry but have looked through the postings a couple of times.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Kevin Sheils
Date: 01 Aug 12 - 03:23 PM

Sorry just noticed you provided a Tel Number. Brave Man!


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Good Soldier Schweik
Date: 01 Aug 12 - 07:28 PM

I am sure someone like yourself GSS has interesting information to give rather than your 4 word original post."
it was not my original post


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Ross Campbell
Date: 01 Aug 12 - 11:19 PM

To come back to Bill Leader:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Leader lists some of the artists and albums he produced or engineered.

Discogs has an even more extensive discography:-
http://www.discogs.com/artist/Bill+Leader

Reinhard Zierke's excellent site has illustrated entries for his extensive collection, also explains the Leader/Trailer LEA/LER and other prefixes:-
http://www.informatik.uni-hamburg.de/~zierke/folk/records/leadertrailer.html

Musical Traditions lists the full Leader catalogue:-
http://www.mustrad.org.uk/discos/lea_txt3.htm#leader

Bill Leader recorded many albums for the Topic label. Musical Traditions introductory page describes how to search their extensive database:-
http://www.mustrad.org.uk/discos/discog.htm

And he's not finished yet - Bill Leader was at the final recording session of Folk Police label's Woodbine and Ivy Band project to provide a guiding hand:-
http://www.folkpolicerecordings.com/woodbine--ivy-band.html

Such a rich career ought certainly to be documented and celebrated. I have been buying Bill's output since first finding the Folk Trailer sampler album so many years ago. It is almost incredible that such a body of work could be accomplished by one person. I look forward to seeing Guest Litto's book.

Ross


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Aug 12 - 03:52 AM

I assume you have talked to Reg Hall and Dave Bland - both friends and former colleagues of Bill.
Also, Prof. R.S. (Bob) Thomson, who co-operated with him on the making of the magnificent 'Unto Brigg Fair' album of the Grainger Lincolnshire recordings. Bob was head of the English department in Gainesville, Florida, but may have now retired.
You might also find Karl Dallas useful (still in London I think)
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,Litto
Date: 02 Aug 12 - 04:14 AM

Bernard, I'm a regular at Oddfellows myself, usually in Bill's corner and frequently with my partner Eva, somewhere in the vicinity of Bob, the scout-master, and Monica, the lovely German lady who doesn't like sad tunes but never says so. If you're around, identify yourself and say hello.

Kevin, yes, please ring - again, that's 0161 226 5461. I'm in most of the day. I need to talk to as many people as I can for a rounded picture, and your contribution would be greatly appreciated.

Ross, thanks for the encouragement and discographical tips. Some of these I'm using as sources for my own Leader discography, which I hope will be definitive. I salute Reinhard Zierke for his trailblazing, extensive discographical work. I haven't yet explored the Topic data-base, but I will, especially now I know how to get there. Woodbine and Ivy, yes, Bill was telling me about them at our last interview.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 02 Aug 12 - 04:33 AM

Karl Dallas lives in Bradford, as does Gloria (formerly Leader). Most people you need to contact are on Facebook. Another good contact would be Janet Kerr, one of several who decamped with Bill to Halifax in the 1970s. A talented artist, she designed sleeves and worked as a sound recordist on a number of field trips.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 02 Aug 12 - 04:40 AM

Stim, I was responding to the email from Mr Bulmer quoted by Phil Edwards. As I said in a previous post, Bulmer is under no obligation to do anything with the recordings he owns. However it seems strange to me that he does not want to exploit them commercially, when there is clearly strong demand for some of them.

Putting recordings online for downloading is cheap - $49 per album with CD Baby for example. He already owns most of the necessary rights, apart from MCPS which is also not expensive. Ideally he should also spend a bit on remastering, but people will still download them in their original state.

1000 CDs with inserts and cellophane-wrapped jewel cases can be duplicated for around £650. Even allowing for the other costs, the total probably wouldn't be much more than £1 per CD which would sell at between £10 and £15.

Not everything would have commercial value, but I have no doubt he would not lose money by making at least some of it commercially available in a proper format. He doesn't appear to be interested in doing this, or indeed in doing anything else with it. This is of course his prerogative, but it is understandable that it upsets people that some of the most significant recordings of an era are effectively unobtainable. (It also upsets them that the artists are being deprived of income from their work, which is a separate although equally, if not more, important issue).


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,Litto
Date: 02 Aug 12 - 05:42 AM

Borchester, Janet Kerr, yes, yes. Her beautiful graphic designs provided a visual identity for Leader/Trailer, and then there were her field recording trips to Carolina etc. That's two chapters; if not two books in themselves. I've also been playing her New Deal String Band record, so plenty to talk about.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 02 Aug 12 - 07:48 AM

It might be helpful if you were able to track down Dave Emery who I think now lives in the West Midlands as he was Bill's contact in the North East when Leader/Trailer LPs were being sold around the folk clubs. He might have information about those early days.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Bernard
Date: 02 Aug 12 - 09:19 AM

Litto - sorry, but I'm not able to be in to places at once - Monday night is Sounds of Folk on Oldham Community Radio, too!! I go straight to the studio from work, so once we've done I head off home for some food... one day, perhaps.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,Litto
Date: 02 Aug 12 - 10:22 AM

Fair play, Bernard


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,Litto
Date: 02 Aug 12 - 10:25 AM

Thanks for the tip, Dave


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Ross Campbell
Date: 02 Aug 12 - 10:04 PM

Guest, Litto - You mentioned having some records to sell to finance your project. This eBay seller has an interesting range on offer, with a few Bill Leader classics in amongst them. This one rarely comes up nowadays:-
THE COPPER FAMILY a song for every season ULTRA RARE FOLK BOXSET 4 x LP (£75 asked)

Some interesting prices being suggested. I may have to re-assess my own collection!

Ross


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Bugsy
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 04:16 AM

This is a very interesting topic. Isn't/wasn't "Rubber Records" also mixed in this debacle also?

Dave Bulmer's grip on this material may be slowly slipping away. (see Blicky below)
"PUBLIC DOMAIN"

CHeers

Bugsy


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Kevin Sheils
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 05:15 AM

I see nothing in that link that led to your assumption Bugsy.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,Litto,
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 01:52 PM

Ross, Interesting indeed. I noticed this - the same buyer is asking £75 for the one disc sampler of the Copper box set - and also misleads with the line "these come from my own collection". In fact, I recognise them as from the same source as the batch I'm offering i.e. the collection of the late Ian Chappell, acquired at Omega Auction in Stockport last month. I'm not fetching these prices with my LPs (auction; low starting price). £10 for Young Hunting + Poor Fellows by Tony Rose and £15 for the rare Contraband (Mae McKenna, Ossian). C'mon, Mudcatters, you don't want to prove Dave Bulmer right! This is today's listing - http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/150871483313?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1558.l2649#ht_500wt_1204


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,Litto
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 02:27 PM

Sorry, that should read "the same seller"... (above)


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Bugsy
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 09:09 PM

I was refering to the section on Public Domain. It would appear to me that some of the early recordings would soon be, if not already, in the Public Domain.

Cheers

Bugsy


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Ross Campbell
Date: 04 Aug 12 - 12:37 AM

Not sure what "early recordings" you're referring to, Bugsy.

If you mean the material in some of the "grey" albums and others which would have been transcribed from cylinder, wire or early tape or acetate recordings, the originals might well be in the public domain, but any extant examples are likely to be in the hands of libraries or private collections who can still require licencing fees for reproduction. The transcribed recordings which went to make up those albums may or may not have been copyright to Bill Leader at the time of production, and in any case would not themselves become public domain for many years.

If you mean Bill Leader's own earliest recordings, even they would still be a long way from becoming public domain. If I'm reading the article right, anything recorded after 1961 would be covered by the extension of copyright (proposed 2011 - was it enacted?) from fifty years to seventy years, ie 1961 to 2031 and so on. The Leader/Trailer output as dated in the Musical Traditions discography spans the years 1969-1977, so all would now be in the seventy-year bracket.

I did wonder what the situation would be for any recordings Bill Leader made prior to 1961, or before setting up his own label, but those would have been made for other labels who would presumably have held the original copyrights in the material they published.

Ross


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,ROSIE HARDMAN
Date: 05 Aug 12 - 05:27 AM

Sorry about this - but I really take exception to the person who said that the albums that are not released are not wanted anyway!

TWO of my albums are 'on the shelves' not being released and I can tell you very emphatically that there IS a demand for them! I get requests via my own website regularly. I tried to get the rights back to release these albums over 10 years ago and was told then by Dave Bulmer that he hoped to release them within 18 months. It just never happened.

I tried again in 2004, without success. He wouldn't even give me the rights to add them, in MP3 form, to a HUGE archive that a friend of mine took two years to put together and that we hoped to release in 2002. They were the ONLY albums for which I didn't get the rights back, where I was still able to contact the people who originally recorded them. They were such an important part of my musical history that I couldn't release the archive without them and the whole project was scuppered.

It might also be of interest that I recorded a private album with Bill Leader, completely at my own expense, in 1973 (featuring Ian Hunt, Stuart Marson, Graham Cooper and myself). It therefore belonged to ME - not to Leader records. You can read all about it on my site, under The Lost Leader (tongue in cheek title I gave it deliberately). I didn't release this until 2000 when I got the money together to have it done. The tapes were in perfect condition and were remastered digitally. It has sold through my site - and sold WELL - ever since. I tracked down Bill Leader and talked to him on the phone and he was delighted that it was doing so well. We also talked about other things so I know exactly how he feels about them.

The success of The Lost Leader stimulated me into re-releasing my Plant Life albums and the contrast between their attitude & Celtic's was poles apart. I got the rights back to all my Plant Life albums without a single problem - because as they said - they weren't going to release them and they felt that the music ought to be 'out there' earning money for me and giving people pleasure. What a refreshing attitude! All those albums have sold solidly since via my site.

I did some 'one-off' gigs in 2006, 7, 8 and 9 which all sold out almost immediately and which generated good sales again for my Plant Life albums and would have been a perfect chance to release my Leader albums... but again, NOTHING happened.

When it comes to 'signing contracts more rigorously' - in the early 70s when I signed with Bill Leader, I was young and yes, naive. Being asked to sign with Bill Leader was one of the greatest accolades that any artist on the British Folk Scene could earn at that time and nobody in their right mind turned down the chance. It never occurred to me, nor, I am sure, to many other artistes, that our work could or would be sold from underneath us without someone having to re-negotiate the contract!

The law IS to blame - for allowing people like Bulmer to buy people's work without a re-negotiation of contracts with the people who wrote and/or recorded the material. There should at LEAST be a time-limit for releasing the material, upon the expiration of which rights are returned to the artiste/composer etc. As we all know though - the law is often an ass. However - just because someone has the legal rights to something doesn't mean that they should ignore the ethics of the situation.

When it comes to people getting heated on the subject - I am now heading for 70, disabled and on a very low pension. I would LOVE to have these albums out again and making even a little money for me. My work, from any era, SHOULD be providing me with income where possible. However, despite this, to me, obvious MORAL & ETHICAL fact, they are stuck on some shelves somewhere, unheard, when they could be enjoyed by my fans, old and new. So if I sound angry, it's because I AM flippin' angry - and I am certainly not going to pretend otherwise.   

Lo and behold - what has just dropped into my Inbox? An email asking me if I have Firebird available on CD! Q. E. D. Another one to join the growing list of emails from people waiting for CDs of Second Season Came or Firebird.

Anyone wanting to contact me - you know where I am - www.rosiehardman.com/rosie.htm


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Ross Campbell
Date: 05 Aug 12 - 08:03 AM

Click on the link:- www.rosiehardman.com/rosie.htm


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Ross Campbell
Date: 05 Aug 12 - 08:18 AM

Many artists have recovered rights from other labels to enable the re-release of albums which would no longer make commercial sense for the labels themselves to reproduce, but which do have a limited demand, whether from old fans replacing vinyl copies or new fans seeking older material.

It is Celtic Music's intransigence in refusing to deal in this way that baffles and infuriates so many people.

Ross


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Good Soldier Schweik
Date: 05 Aug 12 - 10:18 AM

I agree with,Rosie,
which is why i referred to him as a wanker, i made an lp with the new mexborough concertina quartet, which was made on richrd digances label dam buster, the recording was sold to bulmer without our approval nor were we even asked.
I have been approached by potential customers, i know there is a demand.
i take exception to the remark no demand,
I also recorded a SOLO lp with Carthy playing guitar,which Bulmer has in his possession dont tell me there is no demand.
Dave Bulmer makes me sick.Dick Miles


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Ian Hendrie
Date: 05 Aug 12 - 12:06 PM

The Rosie Hardman link doesn't work because of a www.mudcat.org prefix being added. I tried to make a working link but encountered the same problem.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 05 Aug 12 - 12:14 PM

http://www.rosiehardman.com/rosie.htm


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Ian Hendrie
Date: 05 Aug 12 - 12:42 PM

Thanks for that.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,Sean, Lincs.
Date: 05 Aug 12 - 05:28 PM

Any mention of Bulmer in connection with music corrupt practice should always be in the company of Neil Sharpley, Bulmer's legal henchman from Licolnshire, who prospers to this day in Louth despite, or perhaps because, he knows dishonesty pays.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 05 Aug 12 - 06:32 PM

I really take exception to the person who said that the albums that are not released are not wanted anyway!

In case it wasn't obvious, I was paraphrasing Bulmer when I wrote that - and I don't agree with him!


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Ross Campbell
Date: 06 Aug 12 - 01:41 AM

Apologies for the bad link. Forgot to check it myself.

Ross


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,mindthetrams
Date: 07 Oct 12 - 04:27 PM

I don't begin to understand the issues that some people have with Dave Bulmer. Having played with him for many years at gigs and in sessions, I have yet to meet anyone who has such an encyclopaedic knowledge of Irish traditional tunes and who has done so much to promote traditional music - either through his books ( Bulmer & Sharpley) or just by osmosis in sessions.
I suspect that a lot of people think that their music is worth more than it actually is. There are thousands of singer/songwriters out there who are actually quite boring and whose recordings are not worth preserving - far less worth producing and promulgating!
A values issue? Discuss!


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Oct 12 - 05:59 PM

Discuss what? You're either Bulmer's uncle or you're a feckin' eejit. Discuss.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,c.g.
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 04:37 AM

OK, mindthetrams, you know him so well. Ask him why he won't release material. Then post his reply here.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Howard Jones
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 08:11 AM

Mindthtrams, I think this is what puzzles so many people. He did indeed do a great deal to promote traditional music (I have two of his Irish tunebooks), which is why it is such a mystery that he refuses to release the material he owns.

If you do indeed know him then please ask him why, if he doesn't think it's worthwhile commercially for him to release these albums, he won't give permission for the musicians themselves to do it.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: theleveller
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 11:16 AM

"There are thousands of singer/songwriters out there who are actually quite boring and whose recordings are not worth preserving - far less worth producing and promulgating!"

One of the most arrogant statements I've ever seen on Mudcat. What, exactly, makes your opinion so valuable - and what contribution have you made to the folk music scene? Discuss!


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 01:12 PM

Yes. It is Morton's fork. Either the recordings are of market value so should be released or they are not so they should revert.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,Henry Farley,
Date: 09 Oct 12 - 05:10 AM

Dave Bulmer aquired the recordings he holds quite legally, there was little demand for them at the time but he maybe thought one or two of them would become viable again. This has with very limited exeption proved not to be the case and even if it did happen the artists concerned would receive no royalties, Bulmer and his legal chum Neil Sharpley would pocket the lot, even if a royalty agreement had been signed.
A simple enquiry to PRS or MCPS would verify this.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,Concerned of Tunbridge
Date: 09 Oct 12 - 06:50 AM

Question:- If the recordings held by Dave are of no commercial value to him why does he not sell them back to the original artistes thus at least realising some financial return on the original cost of his investment.

Could it be that we, the folk fraternity, have really cheesed him off with the somewhat acid, nay vitriolic, criticism of him over the years.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 09 Oct 12 - 07:17 AM

"Yes. It is Morton's fork. Either the recordings are of market value so should be released or they are not so they should revert."

Too right. In 2012, what with things like Bandcamp and AmazingTunes, it has never been easier to put out music for sale.

That Dave Bulmer clearly has perverse and petty ulterior motives couldn't be clearer.

If I were one of the aggreived parties, with an album Bulmer is sitting on, I would just covertly (or even not-so covertly) bootleg it. I'd make my own pressings, and stick em on eBay. Make my own digital versions, and stick em on Bandcamp. And dare him to do anything about it.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,Alistair Russell
Date: 09 Oct 12 - 04:07 PM

Hello Litto and all interested parties. I was there at the beginning of CM - my vinyl album Tripping Upstairs with Tom Napper was CM002.
I've since become a bit experienced at the technical side of the recording game.
Like everyone else here, I have opinions and observations about Bulmer, Leader, viability of CD releases, relative merits of various early folk labels and so on. I'll be glad to have an email exchange with you about it, Litto, or even meet up for a chat. Like many parties involved in this matter, I'm in West Yorkshire.
All the best, Alistair info@alistairrussell.co.uk


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 09 Oct 12 - 05:14 PM

As I recall, folks here bitched just as loudly when he did release some.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Oct 12 - 06:51 PM

And what kind of releases were they, Dick?


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Oct 12 - 06:55 PM

That was me.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 09 Oct 12 - 07:19 PM

The releases were, and are CD-Rs. So what?


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Oct 12 - 07:23 PM

So they were not properly remastered re-releases on proper CDs and they were not properly packaged with proper inserts and there were no royalties for the artist. That's so what, fer chrissake.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 09 Oct 12 - 08:20 PM

THe question of royalties has to to with contracts, and has nothing at all to do with whether it's a "proper" CD or a CD-R. I agree, it would be nice if they were re-mastered (though they're certainly quite listenable), and I miss the notes, but they're certainly available, which, IMO is a hell of a lot better than not having them available.
And wotinhell is a "proper" insert?

If you want to complain about Bulmer, you might look at his actions in preventing Free Reed from using the Bellamy material they had included in Wake the Vaulted Echoes.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,raymond greenoaken
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 05:34 AM

Where do we look, Dick? Can you shine a little light on it?


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Howard Jones
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 07:26 AM

Dick is quite right, the question of royalties (which seems to get people particularly exercised) is a contractual matter and it would make no difference if Bulmer were to release the albums. Not everything in his portfolio will be worth releasing, but there is clearly demand for some of them. But if he doesn't want to do it himself, he could sell the rights back to the artists.

Yes, the music is available - if you know that a particular album is part of his stable in the first place, and then only if you know how to track down Mr Bulmer to get in touch with him, as he seems to keep a low profile. When I want to buy a record I don't usually expect to have to carry out a search at Companies House to track down the record label, I expect to go into a shop or buy online. So it's a very restricted meaning of "available".

Secondly, the copies he supplies are on CD-R. Now that is indeed better than nothing, but a search on here will turn up a number of complaints about the quality. Proper CDs are now cheap to produce, putting sound files online even cheaper.

As things stand, everyone is losing. Artists are losing the opportunity to sell albums, fans are losing the opportunity to buy them, and Mr Bulmer is getting little or no return on his investment. It doesn't take much imagination to see how this could be improved for everyone.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,Henry Farley.
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 07:47 AM

Bulmer and Sharpley not only own large numbers of recordings but through Celtic Music they are also publishers which means that every time a track from their vast catalogue is broadcast, and many still are they receive royalties, a percentage, usually 50% is paid to the artist, this is not done. Were Bulmer to relinquish rights to these recordings this income would be lost. Neil Sharpley is clever enough to know that the artists in question do not have the money to challenge them through the courts.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Howard Jones
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 03:07 PM

He does not have to relinquish rights, he could negotiate deals with the artists which would benefit both parties.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 03:26 PM

There is a tendency to vastly overtate the amount of money involved in folk CDs. First of all, royallties typically are about 15%. Secondly sales of folk CDs, with very few exceptions, alre almost exclusively limited to sales made by performers at places where they're performing.
    Searching for a CD doesn't necessarily involve searching through each publisher's catalog---that's what retailers (including CAMSCO) are for.
    And, regarding durability of CD-Rs, I can only speak for my own business, but CD-Rs carry the same warranty a pressed CDs.
    Lastly, at least one major folk CD publisher in the UK (as well as 2 major folk publishers in the US) produce CD-Rs. It's the only feasible way to supply a small (and diminishing) market.Complaining tht they're not "proper CDs is like complaining thet CDs aren't "proper" LPs.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Good Soldier Schweik
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 03:35 PM

it is not just about royalties it is about having control over material THAT INVOLVED LOTS OF BLOOD SWEAT AND TEARS,
I would definitely benefit from having the Mexborough recordings issued plus Cheating the Tide with Martin Carthy, even if it was ONLY from the point of publicity.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 04:17 PM

Sadly, most contracts written in the 60s and 70s relinquished all such control, Permanently.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,CJ
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 05:56 PM

CDrs are not as long lasting as CDs. When you buy a CDr from C# House they recommend you make a copy onto your hard drive sooner rather than later.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 06:46 PM

CD-Rs are for temporary storage only. You can run off a hundred for about ten quid from a batch of blanks you bought at Asda. And stick 'em in covers you bought for a quid for 70 in the Pound Shop. Pretending you're rereleasing an album by releasing it on CD-R is taking the piss. As for royalties, Dick, I don't give a monkey's bloody mickey whether the artist gets 15p or 15 grand as long as the principle of recompensing the artist is honoured. Principle, Dick.

And come on, make a case that Noah's Ark Trap would not be commercially viable. Ferchrissake!


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Howard Jones
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 06:55 PM

The question of royalties is a red herring. As has been pointed out, under the terms of the contracts the artists wouldn't be entitled to royalties even if the albums were released. However, not only is Bulmer not releasing the albums himself, he appears to be unwilling to negotiate with artists who would like the opportunity to re-release their own material. For some of these, this would be a small but important contribution to their income. If he doesn't want to exploit his assets himself, his refusal to allow them to benefit from their own work strikes many as morally wrong.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 07:04 PM

Whaddya mean, "strikes many"? It bloody well is morally wrong.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 08:24 PM

Steve. You're wrong, I make no case for Bulmer's ethics or morality, but hi is releasing some of the albums, if not in the form that suits you.And I've encountered nothing about CD-Rs that limits them to temporary storage. The low cost of producing CD-Rs is what makes it possible to satisfy what is actually a tiny market. I have no Idea how well Noah's Ark Trap would sell (I'd buy it), but I do know that, in the US, at least, I've sold a half-dozen copies of Unearthed since it's been released.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 08:51 PM

And how many copies of Unearthed have sold altogether? I have it and I know of at least one other bloke who has it. I live in the middle of nowhere yet I already know a third as many people who have it as the 300 million in the US who you've failed to sell it to.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 09:08 PM

If you have a vested commercial interest in selling CDr products
then they are bloody marvellous !!!

But for the rest of us,
we are all too aware of CDr limitations as a reliable long term, or even medium term, storage media.


Though surely 'debate' about the 'merits' of CDr is just a distraction from the main topic
of this thread.....???

Sadly, stubborn bitter petty spiteful wrangling about disputed ownership rights
is all too common a factor
preventing release of cherished 'vintage' recorded music & movies.
Often persisting for far too long after the artists are deceased
and master tapes & negatives have perished from neglect & poor storage conditions,
or mean spirited wilful destruction.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Howard Jones
Date: 11 Oct 12 - 03:14 AM

Let's accept that Mr Bulmer is acting entirely lawfully. He owns the assets, it's up to him what he does with them. As I understand it, he cannot yet be required to return the rights to the original artists if he doesn't want to make use of them himself.

Let us also accept that under the terms of the original contracts the original artists will receive no royalties if the albums are released. It may have been naive of them, but they signed the contracts and must live with the consequences.

However:

1) When one of a record label's principal artists suffers a life-changing accident and loses his livelihood, one would expect that most record labels would look beyond the small print of the contract and try to help. Especially if they have no intention of releasing his albums themselves.

Nic Jones is perhaps an extreme example, but we've heard from other artists who would be glad of the chance to sell some of the old recordings. And it's not just about money - a recording represents a huge commitment of time and emotional effort, and artists want to see those albums available and to be able to sell them at gigs or through their websites. So why won't Bulmer deal with them to allow this to happen?

2) Bill Leader's recordings represented some of the most important developments in folk music of their time, as well as a lot of significant source recordings. Whilst those recordings are not "lost", in the sense that there must be many original copies out there, it is a matter of regret that they are not more widely available. If it is not worth releasing them as CDs, it is very cheap to put them online.

3) Bulmer's attitude makes no commercial sense to anyone. With a few exceptions, he won't exploit them himself, and he won't make them available to others. That's a lose-lose all round.

4) In doing so, he has completely trashed his own reputation on the folk scene.

The question no one seems to be able to get an answer to is, why?


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 11 Oct 12 - 07:39 AM

There is a tendency to vastly overtate the amount of money involved in folk CDs.

True.

First of all, royallties typically are about 15%.

That's the industry model. Over the past 30 odd years, in the UK at least, plenty of small labels have used the 50/50 profit share approach pioneered by the likes of Rough Trade. The label recoups its investment and splits the profits with the artists. This usually doesn't amount to much money, though...

Secondly sales of folk CDs, with very few exceptions, alre almost exclusively limited to sales made by performers at places where they're performing.

Nearly all the albums my label has released have been sold online or via record shops. A minority of sales have been at gigs. I accept that maay not be typical, but it's true.

Searching for a CD doesn't necessarily involve searching through each publisher's catalog---that's what retailers (including CAMSCO) are for.

A quick scout of the internet reveals that very few retailers stock CM product.

And, regarding durability of CD-Rs, I can only speak for my own business, but CD-Rs carry the same warranty a pressed CDs.

There's not really any excuse to use CDrs when glass mastered CDs are available in runs of as little as 100. And not only should CDrs be clearly identified as such, it shouldn't be left to responsible retailers to do this but should be the job of the record label.

Lastly, at least one major folk CD publisher in the UK (as well as 2 major folk publishers in the US) produce CD-Rs.

That's fine as long as they are not trying to pass them off as glass mastered CDs. I've seen CM reissues and there is no indication anywhere on the disc or packaging that these are CDrs. This omission is dishonest.

It's the only feasible way to supply a small (and diminishing) market.

No it's not. The manufacturer I use does runs of glass mastered CDs starting at 100 copies. You can even get a run of vinyl albums from 100 copies. Making material available via a download retailer such as Bandcamp has never been easier. The expense - apart from your time - is in getting the masters (or the vinyl) professionally digitised. There are services that do this that charge a low enough fee to make even a potentially low selling reissue potentially viable over time.

Complaining tht they're not "proper CDs is like complaining thet CDs aren't "proper" LPs

No it's not. A CDr is not a glass mastered CD. I've absolutely no problem with people selling them, and have bought loads myself over the years, but they need to be above board about it. It helps the customer make an informed choice about what they spend their money on.

And unlike a CD, I always make a digital back up of any CDr I buy because I've had too many crap out on me.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,Jim Moray
Date: 11 Oct 12 - 09:08 AM

A small point before I sink into the ether again...

I don't think the use of CDRs rather than glass mastered CDs on CM product is about cost, I think it's because CDRs are exempt from needing an MCPS licence. In other words it's a further attempt to avoid mechanical royalties.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Oct 12 - 09:14 AM

Thanks for the heads up on MCPS Jim, an interesting point given the large number of CD-R products that I've seen this year!


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 11 Oct 12 - 09:17 AM

Jim - succinct, to the point and spot on!


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,Jenny.
Date: 11 Oct 12 - 09:44 AM

Avoiding paying royalties is what it's all about, what do you think Bulmer lives on.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Howard Jones
Date: 11 Oct 12 - 01:49 PM

Is that correct about MCPS? I don't see why the media should make a difference. There are different rates for music on DVDs, downloads etc but if copyright music is used then royalties are payable.

The MCPS AP2 application doesn't distinguish CD from CD-R, and manufacturers say they require a MCPS certificate for all audio products, whether CD-Rs or 'proper' CDs. There is a Limited Manufacture Licence for less than 1000 units, but this applies whether its on CD, LP or cassette.

So far as I am aware the only exemptions from royalties are where you are recording your own material, or the material isn't controlled by MCPS (in which case you have to agree terms direct with the rights holder).

I'm happy to proved wrong on this.

Bulmer doesn't need to go through these hoops to avoid royalties due to the terms of the original contracts signed by the artists (which in fairness were not entered into with him, he has just acquired the rights)


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,Don Wise
Date: 11 Oct 12 - 02:32 PM

If it's not clear on the packaging that it's a CD-R rather than a CD could this be an infringement of the Trades Descriptions Act?


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 11 Oct 12 - 03:17 PM

I was signed to Bulmer once. We got around his shenanigans by instead of buying our records off him to sell at gigs, we sneaked in the back door of the warehouse and stole boxes of them. It worked out fine. I'm not sure he ever knew, I don't think stock taking was his thing.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Oct 12 - 03:17 PM

I can assure y'all that you have to pay yer dues to composers whether you make a proper CD or a CD-R. Personal experience!


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Oct 12 - 03:55 PM

CDRs are not exempt from MCPS royalties if you're bulk producing them for sale. However you can produce them yourself and get away without declaring them to the MCPS because legit pressing facilities require you to show your MCPS licence. As I understand it, Bulmer owns his own pressing facility. Follow your own logic.

His print & repackaging - booklets and inlays - are cheapskate too.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: pavane
Date: 11 Oct 12 - 05:42 PM

The points about MCPS and CD-R have all been made in previous threads too. You can pay MCPS for a licence for a small number, and put MCPS log on the disk, but then who is to say how many you actually made, if you are doing it yourself.

I don't suppose anyone fom MCPS is going around counting them, even if they could. (Might be a problem if one of them got into the charts, though!)


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 11 Oct 12 - 05:49 PM

not really, you can chart for less than a thousand sales nowadays


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Oct 12 - 05:50 PM

Spot on, pavane.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: pavane
Date: 11 Oct 12 - 05:55 PM

And don't forget, royalties are payable to the copyright owners of the lyrics/songs/tunes as well as the performers.

This is a REAL minefield, especially bearing in mind the well-known story of the people who went around claiming copyright of existing traditional songs. One famous example is Wild Mountain Thyme, which is clearly based on Robert Tannahill's Braes o' Balquidder from the 1790's - see below. There is nothing to stop anyone doing that even now.

It would be really difficult to find a single album of "traditional" music where all songs/tunes are public domain. So we can assume that royalties are being avoided if none are paid.

From Braes o' Balquidder:
I will twine thee a bower
By the clear siller fountain,
An' I'll cover it o'er
Wi' the flowers o' the mountain;

Will ye go, lassie, go,
To the braes o' Balquhidder?
Where the blaeberries grow,
'Mang the bonnie bloomin' heather;


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: pavane
Date: 11 Oct 12 - 05:57 PM

You can pay MCPS based on as few as 250 copies


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: pavane
Date: 11 Oct 12 - 05:59 PM

So perhaps if we all decided on one album, and went out and bought it in the same week, we could embarrass DB by getting it into the charts?

On the other hand, he wouldn't care because he would make money out of it.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 11 Oct 12 - 06:23 PM

Actually there are plenty of manufacturers out there who will press you up a couple of hundred Cdrs no questions asked. There again, there are places you can get glass mastered CDs pressed up no questions asked. Not that I'm advocating this, of course!


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 11 Oct 12 - 07:09 PM

Is there anything to stop an artist, whose work is held by Celtic Music, recording some or all of the songs again, perhaps with a slightly different arrangement, and have them issued through a different company?

DC


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Bugsy
Date: 11 Oct 12 - 07:54 PM

"Is there anything to stop an artist, whose work is held by Celtic Music, recording some or all of the songs again, perhaps with a slightly different arrangement, and have them issued through a different company?"

You mean, Like Bob Fox and Stu Luckley did?

Cheers

Bugsy


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,raymond greenoaken
Date: 12 Oct 12 - 04:40 AM

>Is there anything to stop an artist, whose work is held by Celtic Music, recording some or all of the songs again, perhaps with a slightly different arrangement, and have them issued through a different company?<

The expense, perhaps?


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 12 Oct 12 - 04:54 AM

The expense, perhaps?

If the music being sat upon by CM is any good, then maybe the payback would be worth the expense.
If it's not worth the expense then perhaps that is why CM is not doing anything with it.


DC


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 12 Oct 12 - 05:11 AM

I've just re-read what I have written and it seems to imply something that I didn't intend, So, before someone gives me a verbal beating up, please let me say ………. I am not suggesting that all, or even most of the music being withheld is worthless. Obviously, someone thought it was good enough to record in the first place.

I am also aware some of the music cannot be re-recorded at this late stage as groups may have broken up, the performers' circumstances may have changed or some may no longer be alive. But for those that can ……… ?


DC


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 12 Oct 12 - 05:18 AM

>Is there anything to stop an artist, whose work is held by Celtic Music, recording some or all of the songs again, perhaps with a slightly different arrangement, and have them issued through a different company?<

These would of course be totally different albums. The artists are older and not all of the are still performing, or indeed still with us. And they wouldn't have Bill Leader presiding over the recording. To these ears, 70s albums on Trailer sound nothing like modern folk albums. I own quite a few Trailer releases on vinyl and there's something quite special and magical about these releases that to me has generally been lost on most modern folk albums. There's a rawness and directness and lack or artifice that would be hard to replicate.

I just wish more current folk albums sounded like Trailer releases, really...

Also call me a purist, but (for example) there's an ocean of diffrence between Mike & Lal Waterson's Bright Phoebus and the tribute album that came out a few years back. Not a value judgement, but the two things aren't the same.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Oct 12 - 05:20 AM

Is there anything to stop an artist, whose work is held by Celtic Music, recording some or all of the songs again, perhaps with a slightly different arrangement, and have them issued through a different company?

The performing deterioration of the 35-40 years since they were first recorded? Having had, oh I don't know, something like a terrible car crash or having died of cancer. The fact that what people want is the original recordings?

There should simply be a "use it or lose it" law where ownership of recordings is concerned. If a label hasn't made something commercially available (and the law would have to be phrased to avoid getting around it by putting out a few dozen shoddy CDRs) for a long period of time and the recording has passed a certain age, the rights should revert to the artist. Let's say it's 25 years old and hasn't been available for 10, or something like that.

I was reading recently that the Transatlantic and B&C catalogues are now owned by Universal after having been aquired from Castle who went bust. Similar story. The difference is that Universal will license them for re-release but only if totally unrealistic arms and legs are paid. So whilst re-issues of Pentangle or early Steeleye might be viable, you won't be seeing anything like The Young Tradition along any time soon either.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 12 Oct 12 - 05:45 AM

…… And they wouldn't have Bill Leader presiding over the recording. To these ears, 70s albums on Trailer sound nothing like modern folk albums. I own quite a few Trailer releases on vinyl and there's something quite special and magical about these releases that to me has generally been lost on most modern folk albums. There's a rawness and directness and lack or artifice that would be hard to replicate.

Yes, I take your point.

DC


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,Jenny.
Date: 12 Oct 12 - 07:55 AM

Many of the songs to which Bulmer owns copywright have been recorded on other labels, and by other artists, royalties on these songs are still paid to Bulmer, neither PRS or MCPS will give any information to a songwriter who requests information on this matter without a legal request.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: G-Force
Date: 12 Oct 12 - 08:56 AM

There should simply be a "use it or lose it" law where ownership of recordings is concerned. If a label hasn't made something commercially available (and the law would have to be phrased to avoid getting around it by putting out a few dozen shoddy CDRs) for a long period of time and the recording has passed a certain age, the rights should revert to the artist. Let's say it's 25 years old and hasn't been available for 10, or something like that.

A bit like patent law. You may have a patent for your invention, but if you don't exploit your invention, your patent can be got round.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,raymond greenoaken
Date: 12 Oct 12 - 09:06 AM

A dusty memory: more than twenty years a then-employee of Bulmer's smuggled me into CM HQ for a sniff around. Seeing the stockroom was an eye-opener. Not only did CM have the Leader/Trailer/Dambuster/Highway etc catalogues, they also had a whole load of stuff that would later come to be called World Music - I was particularly struck by a six-disc box set entitled The Griots. Pretty rare stock, I would imagine — and presumably it's all still sitting there in Fortress Harrogate, where the sun never shines.

At the time they were reprinting various items from the Leader catalogue on cassette — Seamus Ennis for example. One would hardly expect Seamus to be a mega-seller, but there it is: they really did seem to have a plan for reissuing important but not necessarily commercial stuff. And nowadays CD-Roms are cheaper than blank cassettes were then. At what point did Satan enter the body of Dave Bulmer and consign all his good intentions to the dustbin of history? And why would any sane man want to attract the rage and contempt of virtually the entire folk scene? What is the capital of Upper Volta? etc etc etc...


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,raymond greenoaken
Date: 12 Oct 12 - 09:08 AM

"more than twenty years ago", even...


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 12 Oct 12 - 01:56 PM

Bulmer has no right to the songs themselves--only to the specific recordings. And I'd submit that the suggestion of making them downloadable MP3s would result in considerably lower sound quality
than is provided in CD-Rs.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,sturgeon
Date: 12 Oct 12 - 02:02 PM

Pavane wrote 'It would be really difficult to find a single album of "traditional" music where all songs/tunes are public domain.'

Not true, the majority of albums of sean-nós singing are exactly that.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Howard Jones
Date: 12 Oct 12 - 05:26 PM

I'd submit that the suggestion of making them downloadable MP3s would result in considerably lower sound quality
than is provided in CD-Rs.


Perhaps, but sites like Bandcamp offer alternative high-quality formats. Besides, the objection to CD-Rs is their longevity rather than recording quality.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,Mary
Date: 14 Nov 12 - 04:39 PM

Just chanced on this thread today. I thought you might like to know that Rab Noakes (http://www.go2neon.com/rab-noakes.htm) made a series of programmes about Bill Leader about 15 years ago. I think it was called "Leader's Tapes". Rab might still have a copy.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 14 Nov 12 - 06:02 PM

"Let's accept that Mr Bulmer is acting entirely lawfully. He owns the assets, it's up to him what he does with them. As I understand it, he cannot yet be required to return the rights to the original artists if he doesn't want to make use of them himself.

Let us also accept that under the terms of the original contracts the original artists will receive no royalties if the albums are released. It may have been naive of them, but they signed the contracts and must live with the consequences.

The question no one seems to be able to get an answer to is, why?"

The impression I got (from that Bright Phoebus documentary) is simply financial (and petty). He believes he can't make any money out of them but isn't prepared to release them to anybody else. Perhaps because a part of him can't bear the thought that somebody else could do something - anything - with something he regards as his and his alone. I'd say that's probably it.

I think musicians should just publish and be damned though. In the case of Bulmer-owned releases, I think people should just file-share them like crazy.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Nov 12 - 07:12 PM

Fine, matt, but don't forget that many of us who have posted ad nauseam about this down the years wish to abide by the principle that Nic and all the others should get proper recompense for any of their stuff that goes out there.

I have a shitty cassette version (it's the cassette that's shitty), about 20 years old, copied from another cassette, that was made from a knackered old vinyl copy, even older, of The Noah's Ark Trap. The recording quality is so awful yet the sublime music shines through. I want a nice version of that album sometime before I die. I wouldn't mind betting that I could find something ten times better online than what I have now within five minutes. I haven't looked and I'm not going to.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Bugsy
Date: 15 Nov 12 - 12:33 AM

Whilst I understand and agree with your sentiments Steve, if you want a better version than you have, what's wrong with downloading the online version and sending a couple of bucks to Nick?

Cheers

Cheers

Bugsy


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Nov 12 - 04:55 AM

"Fine, matt, but don't forget that many of us who have posted ad nauseam about this down the years wish to abide by the principle that Nic and all the others should get proper recompense for any of their stuff that goes out there."

Yeah, which is why I'd be perfectly happy to see one of those album filesharing blogs (Time Has Told Me et al) hosting those albums, only with a Paypal address below.

In this day and age "proper" recompense for recordings - especially niche folk recordings - isn't exactly going to be megabucks. A "pay what you can" to a Paypal address via a music blog strikes me as the ideal illegal but morally correct way to get round the Bulmer situation.

If I were ever in the position that an album I'd made (which I thought was actually really good) was being sat on and left to rot by an evil record label, I would just put it on Bandcamp, charge for it, and see them in court.

Some friends of mine who were in a hip-hop act in the 1990s noticed that copies of an out-of-print album of theirs (on a now-defunct record label) were going for a lot of money on eBay. So they bootlegged their own album - did a re-press.

Of course, you'd have to stick to your guns, cos I imagine Dave Bulmer is enough of a c**t to try to sue you if you did it. Which is why, in this instance, the illegal and fugitive nature of filesharing could actually work in musicians' favour in this one instance.

Has anyone ever, by the way, emailed Nic Jones or any of the other artists, and asked if they'd burn them a CDR (for cash)?

I'd really like to hear, for instance, the "John & Sandra" album, which I know is on Argo and a whole different kettle of unreleased fish, was thinking about emailing Sandra Kerr and asking if she'd make me a copy...


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Aug 13 - 12:29 PM

Rumours circulating from reputable sources that Bulmer died yesterday. Can anyone confirm?


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 04 Aug 13 - 12:57 PM

Un-named Guest. Give us some evidence. (And a name would be nice) Or you just another troll?


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Aug 13 - 01:49 PM

It was a posting on Facebook from a musician, Martin Robertson to Tony Wilson, both from Bulmer's home town of South Shields: "Tony, heard from Ropey that Dave Bulmer passed away in hissleep (sic) last nigh. Martint".

I'd prefer not to identify myself at this stage due to contractual disputes with CM music and any potential for resolution if the above news is true. Of course, it's not beyond the realms of possibility that there's a bit if Reggie Perrin going on here.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 04 Aug 13 - 01:57 PM

It is true


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Reinhard
Date: 04 Aug 13 - 02:41 PM

In the fRoots forum Andy Turner cites Dick Gaughan from the UK Music Folk list:

Just heard that Dave Bulmer died on Saturday. Don't know who's taking care of his assets but I foresee much complicated litigation.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Aug 13 - 04:44 PM

Bulmer's death confirmed


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Aug 13 - 11:15 PM

An interesting question whether contracts are contracts of personal confidence and so brought to an end by death of an obligee.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,Ellen Vannin
Date: 05 Aug 13 - 05:08 AM

Unfortunately if one party to a contract is not given a copy of that contract by the person responsible for having the contract drawn up, it's not possible to check what the terms were.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,Ellen Vannin
Date: 05 Aug 13 - 05:10 AM

Addendum (I should proof-read), the person having the contract drawn up being the other party signing the contract.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 05 Aug 13 - 06:54 PM

Before people start picking over the bones can we remember that Dave Bulmer had a wife and family who should be left to grieve their loss.

Just one other thing

I believe that the contracts that people have chosen to comment on both currently and in the past were drawn up and enacted by Bill Leader.

Dave merely BOUGHT the Leader label and its assets.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Aug 13 - 08:36 PM

Indeed, guest. But I somehow can't see his family doing too much digging around on the web at the moment for the inevitable resurrected threads about his inexplicable and allegedly disreputable behaviour. I think we can talk about him right now if we want to, bearing in mind, of course, what you say.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Good Soldier Schweik
Date: 06 Aug 13 - 01:29 AM

guest guest, you are wrong, Bulmer also deliberately prevented certain artists work being made available to musicbuyers., It would be hypocritical of me to say that I am sorry to hear of his death.
The only good thing Dave did was to publish a couple of tune books.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Aug 13 - 03:34 AM

While not disagreeing in any way with criticism of Bulmer, I've always found it more than a little strange that he should be singled out while others who have behaved as badly and in some cases worse have been let off the hook.
I can think of one individual in particular who stood between us and our folk heritage for four decades and the fact that the gathering in of the material was paid for out of our taxes tends to still rub the salt in a little. The only protest I can remember regarding his behaviour was that those who raised it following his demise received a tsunami of abuse for "speaking ill of the dead"
My main concern has always been the treatment that our field singers have received at the hands of 'the folk business' - us 'folkies' have usually managed to find our way round the houses, especially nowadays in the Brave New World of copyrighting, especially of "arrangements".
The pittances paid out to fishermen, small-farmers, miners, navvies, Travellers... et al has always struck me as being insultingly inadequate - and don't get me started about companies, (including one of Britain's finest) who adopt the practice of "selling on" albums for re-issue without recompensing, or even consulting the original artist(s) - asking a traditional singer to bring his/her lawyer in to sign the contract goes totally against the grain of why I got involved in 'the people's' music in the first place.
The few experiences I have had with the BBC in relation to our older singers has always left me with a sour taste in my mouth. I assume it is still their practice to charge the same amount for the use of an item recorded during their folk 'mopping-up' campaign of the 1950s as for a Rolling Stones track.
C'mon people - Bulmer may be a shit, but there's a whole Augean stable in need of a good clean-out and the ritual abusing of one individual while ignoring the rest ain't going to get it done.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Johnny J
Date: 06 Aug 13 - 04:55 AM

I made a similar comment to that of "Guest" (Not me, by the way) elsewhere but I daresay it's inevitable that the subject of Dave's business dealings will be resurrected and discussed at some stage.
My concern was that it would probably have been more respectful to his family if a reasonable amount of time was allowed to elapse, i.e. until after the funeral, at least.

I've no personal reason to mourn him either as I hardly knew the man apart from brief encounters at music festivals where I found him friendly enough.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 03:40 AM

Once again I see this subject riding off into the sunset without a response to the general damage done to our access to traditional material by "the ownership factor" - sad and not a little hypocritical.
Ah well - who knows, perhaps "One day my prince will come".
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,Ellen Vannin
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 09:09 AM

Jim - it might have helped if you had named the individual. The only person I can think you fits at least part of your description is Peter Kennedy, but he did not stand "between us and our folk heritage for four decades" - his horrible little tapes were available and he didn't refuse to pass on information. There certainly wasn't "a tsunami of abuse for "speaking ill of the dead"" - far from it. The obituary on the BBC programme (Last Words?) was surprising honest. If you weren't referring to Peter Kennedy, then this is an example of the problems of making accusations whilst not naming the suspect.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 09:33 AM

EV. I suggest you check some of this threads of this board. I remember one episode in particular when Rod Stradling posted some personal comments about PK in Musical Traditions. By that I mean they were Rod's own opinions. As such neither he nor I saw any need to consult me first. Nevertheless, I as the then co-editor ended up deluged in snide postings, mostly from people who knew nothing at all about PK and his duplicity.

As I recall it, one such perpetrator ended up being accused by a third party of looking to buy the entire Kennedy archive and sell it to some insitution in the USA.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,F. McC
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 09:43 AM

I'm more than familiar with PK's goings-on, I wasn't aware that he had ANY defenders - interesting. Obviously I don't spend enough time on Mudcat.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 09:59 AM

I've no idea who GUEST.,F. McC is and it's a name that hasn't previously been used on Mudcat. However, since it bears a distinct resemblance to my own handle, I'd better say that it isn't me.

Perhaps GUEST.,F. McC would care to reveal himself, and explain why he chose to use this particular appelation when there are so many out there to pick from.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,Ellen Vannin
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 10:54 AM

I have absolutely no idea why my post came up under the name 'F McC'. The penultimate post is mine.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 11:00 AM

Ok, it's draw the horns in time folks. It wouldn't be the first time I've stuck some of the text from the message in the From: box. Fortunately I've always realised before it was too late.

On the other hand, I shudder to think of some of the daft things I have done on Internet message boards in the past.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 11:58 AM

"Jim - it might have helped if you had named the individual."
Ellen.
I really wanted to draw people's attention to the general mistreatment of our source singers, not just Peter's - I believe it would be counter-productive to just concentrate on him, even though he was the worst offender, bot towards those he collected from and his fellow-collectors.
"but he did not stand "between us and our folk heritage for four decades"
Don't know how familiar you are with the Beeb project, I put in a great deal of time on it for the Librarian at C#House, Barbara Newlyn, transferring the original acetate discs to tape and am constantly surprised at how much material was never made widely available, and how much was issued in edited form (Caedmon series) - also his grotesque series where he added on accompaniments and choruses and increased or slowed down the speeds.
"There certainly wasn't "a tsunami of abuse for "speaking ill of the dead"
There was to a degree here on Mudcat, but this wasn't the only place it was raised, to be greeted in a similar manner.
The point is that his behavior was never openly discussed, no matter how "honest" his obituary was - and the collection was sold on,
Dick Greenhause has repaired much of the damage Kennedy did, both in making the material available again and in one case, actually offering reparation for recordings Kennedy misappropriated from another collector and sold without permission of either the collector or the singer.
In this case, the singer, an impoverished Irish Traveller who gave us a treasure trove of ballads (including the rarest in the entire repertoire), died of malnutrition in a derelict house in Roscommon.
Any proceeds forthcoming from this singers repertoire were donated to a school set up to teach Irish Traveller children traditional trades - and the beat goes on!!
Ironically, the copyright of the ballad now rests with a well-heeled professional musician who, as far as I know, doesn't even sing the damn thing - so this appalling behaviour goes far beyond Kennedy.
Despite any marginally unpleasant things that might have been said about Kennedy following his death his behaviour (which tainted the reputation of both the BBC and the EFDSS at the time) was never dealt with satisfactorily; he was protected by threats of legal action while he was living and was cushioned by cries of "don't speak ill of the dead" following his death, please remind me how long he has been dead and how much discussion has taken place since?
An example of how much damage was done is highlighted by a story the late Keith Summers used to tell of how he approached a still living former informant of the BBC project (in the 1980s I thing, but perhaps somebody can correct that).
When Keith asked her for her songs (she turned out to be one of the most important latter-day Irish field singer) she grabbed him by the collar and demanded threatening, "You're not from Peter Kennedy are you?"   
Keith's charm managed to rescue the remainder of her large repertoire that Kennedy had not recorded.
Sorry to go on sol long abot this - I believe it to be a general problem, not just one of Kennedy's behaviour - making a sacrificial lamb out of Bulmer just doesn't hack it for me - we all need to examine where we stand regarding all our behavior and attitude.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 12:14 PM

Can I just quickly (and hopefully finally add) that our mistreatment and disrespect of the people who have preserved and passed on the songs that have given me, and many more a lifetime's worth of pleasure and education does not end with iffy collectors.
I swear that the next singer I hear who introduces a centuries old ballad as "I'd now like to sing a Steeleye Span number" - will need the protection of an armed response unit.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Good Soldier Schweik
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 01:35 PM

The most important point here is this .....no one whoever they are whether they be revivalist singer or traditional singer should be either exploited or have their music suppressed.
I have my criticisms of Kennedy but for Jim Carroll to come out with a statement blaming him [as he appears to be insinuating] for Neilidh Boyles death is incorrect, Boyle did not die in ireland he died in scotland, he had been living in scotland for some while.
why did he leave ireland the same reason? why people are leaving ireland today[and that is not peter kennedys fault]
   kennedy did not suppress music, in fact without kennedy and his abilty to persuade boyle to record by allowing him his rant about jungle music, we would be musically poorer.
Jim, you have your facts wrong about boyle dying in roscommon as a result of peter kennedy. peter kennedy was certainly not an angel but it is completely incorrect to blame him for boyles death or for boyles emigration


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 01:52 PM

Jim was obviously speaking of John Reilly.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Good Soldier Schweik
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 02:13 PM

oh christ, not peter laban, the man who wrote on this forum that he could not stand being in a room with me when he has never met me in person.
   why obviously?, previous discussions from Jim on this form have centered around his supposed treatment of neilidh boyle.
it would be better if jim carroll,kept his mouth shut or alternatively ,named who he was talking about, this pusyfooting on jims part just muddies the waters


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 02:42 PM

Jim wrote:

Dick Greenhause has repaired much of the damage Kennedy did, both in making the material available again and in one case, actually offering reparation for recordings Kennedy misappropriated from another collector and sold without permission of either the collector or the singer.
In this case, the singer, an impoverished Irish Traveller who gave us a treasure trove of ballads (including the rarest in the entire repertoire), died of malnutrition in a derelict house in Roscommon.


Anyone mistaking this as a reference to Neillidh Boyle and lambasting Jim about Boyle not dying in Roscommon has not read or understood what was written. Sorry dick.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 03:17 PM

"as he appears to be insinuating"
So insinuating - I think that's the last anybody can accuse me of - just saying - Peter has it - John Reilly it is - I actually know very little about Boyle other than he was once a neighbour of my very good (now sadly missed) Paddy Boyle - Maggie's father, though I certainly know that wee Neillidh was not a Traveller and (having heard his interviews) suspect that he would have taken umbridge at being described as one.
Now to return to the real world. .
Can we be quite clear here - I doubt if Bulmer's shennanigins would have raised more than a tut-tut if his victims hadn't included some of our more popular 'folk' stars.
The continued blanket of silence surrounding Kennedy's behaviour- (sorry I count the slap on the wrist tantamount to silence) proves (to me at least) that our singers were undervalued, underpaid and under-credited)
Someone please prove to me that this is not the case.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,Topic56
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 03:18 PM

Karl Dallas actually lives in Bradford these days and usually gets to The Topic Folk Clubs Singers Nights. Bill Leader used to get down to the club on a regular basis in its early days. You should speak to Louis Eaton her late husband Alex and Bill were very good friends. I am sure if you contact The Topic via their web site they would try and arange for you to contact them.
I and others used to go to the monday sessions at The Blue Ball at Soyland when he had people recording at his studio in Soyland.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 03:35 PM

FWIW, I noticed that during July there was a whole load of new-old (vinyl lp) stock from Celtic Music being sold off on Ebay by a seller in Harrogate. At a price in some cases. I actually got some of the cheaper items.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 04:00 PM

Just to correct any erroneous impressions. Keith Summers visited Maggie Murphy on three occasions, the first being in the spring of 1979. He said that at first she was reluctant to sing for him, because Kennedy had made her sign a "bit of paper" assigning all the rights to him, not only of the songs she sang to Kennedy, but any that she might subsequently remember.

Keith, never one to mince words, probably told her something to the effect that a contract like that wasn't worth the paper it was written on, because he then got her to sing at least eight songs for him.

A partial attempt at objectification. It's likely that Kennedy told her she would receive royalties on anything published. He may or may not have told her that she would only get fifty per cent. (Kennedy used to pocket the other fifty.) He may also, but probably didn't, have explained to her the difficulty of getting him to actually unleash any of the dosh.

I've no idea therefore whether she and her sister Sarah ever earned anything from Linking O'er The Lea, either from the Caedmon record which it appeared on, or from any revival performances. It was after all, quite a popular song on the English folk scene in the 1960s.

One way and another though, I'm sure I must have met more honest double glazing salesmen.

And in case anyone asks, royalties were paid on the recordings which were used for the Musical Traditions 'Hardy Sons of Dan' release.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Good Soldier Schweik
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 04:04 PM

How was kennedy in any way responsible for reillys death?
Jims earlier comment, is rather like saying it is ok to rob white people but not chinese people, jim, it is not ok to rob or exploit anyone,
as for peter laban buying cheaper items, I am not surprised it is another example of someone thinking about them selves rather than thinking about the artists whose work he has contributed nothing towards, people like Laban clearly have no concern for the artists that bulmer is depriving of royalties, Laban , you should be ashamed of yourself   
can we now get back to discussing bulmer, thanks


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 05:05 PM

Do you know what items I bought dick?


No. You have not the slightest idea what you're talking about. What you're saying is pure malice and utter nonsense all in one go.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 05:06 PM

"How was kennedy in any way responsible for reillys death?"
For ***** sake Cap'n - who on earth said he was
as far as Reilly was concerned, Kennedy issued Tom Munnelly's recordings without permission, ignored requests either to withdraw them or pay the Travellers school and kept them in his catalogue - keep up!!
Dick Greenhaugh was good enough to offer paymnent


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Aug 13 - 05:06 PM

"How was kennedy in any way responsible for reillys death?"
For ***** sake Cap'n - who on earth said he was
as far as Reilly was concerned, Kennedy issued Tom Munnelly's recordings without permission, ignored requests either to withdraw them or pay the Travellers school and kept them in his catalogue - keep up!!
Dick Greenhaugh was good enough to offer paymnent


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Good Soldier Schweik
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 02:38 AM

Peter you bought recordings of celtic music in harrogate and you must have known of bulmers reputation, you should be ashamed of yourself.
jim carroll said" Kennedy misappropriated from another collector and sold without permission of either the collector or the singer.
In this case, the singer, an impoverished Irish Traveller who gave us a treasure trove of ballads (including the rarest in the entire repertoire), died of malnutrition in a derelict house in Roscommon."   
Jim, in your statement there is a clear attempt to associate Kennedy in some way in Reillys death by suggessting he witheld or did not pay royalites and mentioning Reillys death of malnutrition in the next line.
JIM, as usual you have gone way over the top. Kennedy was wrong not to give him royalties, but I cannot see how he is responsible for Reillys death, I would attribute more blame on social workers and social welfare officers and the irish government, it is their responsibilty not Kennedys to make sure that people do not die of mal nutrition


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 03:27 AM

"Kennedy in some way in Reillys death by suggessting he witheld or did not pay royalites"
Please do not continue to disgrace yourself with this and embarrass the rest of us on your behalf.
I never suggested any such thing, and if you honestly believe I did, please show us where I have done so.
At no time was John Reilly paid "royalties", as far as I know, no contributor to archives receives such payment unless their songs are used commercially - John Reilly died in 1969, his album was not released until 1973 - four years after his tragic death.
At the wishes of the collector Tom Munnelly, the proceeds of the album was donated to a school set up to teach young Travellers the traditional skills.
As a gesture of gratitude for some advice Kennedy had given to Tom when first starting out as a collector, he sent him a recording of John, collector - to - fellow - collector.
Kennedy betrayed that generosity by placing those recordings in his catalogue and for the rest of his life he ignored all requests to remove them - I was present at an encounter between Tom and Kennedy on one occasion at a conference in Sheffield - you could have skated on the atmosphere.
Dick Greenhaus on taking over part of Kennedy's catalogue, kindly, ethically and totally out of his own generosity, offered to recompense Tom for Kennedy's appalling behaviour (sorry for the mis-spelling of your name last night Dick - the results of an over-convivial local session)
I think I am right in saying that, as the Travellers' school had taken a nose-dive due to lack of funding Tom refused Dick's generous offer.
Kennedy in no way "contributed to John Reilly's death, he ripped off Tom by taking advantage of a generous gesture and in doing so, ripped of a Travellers' charity - as he had been made fully aware of the situation, he did this knowingly.
Cap'n, you appear to be defending Kennedy's apallingly dishonest behaviour by setting up a smoke-screen around it - please stop it now before you drop yourself even deeper in the klarts.
By the way, all this has nothing to do with Dave Bulmer, on the contary; my raising of the matter was to point out the somewhat hypocritical concentration on Bulmer's behaviour while ignoring that of others towards those who gave us our beautiful music.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 04:16 AM

"Reilly died in 1969, his album was not released until 1973 - four years after his tragic death."
Sorry - this should read "eight years after his death" - Bonny Green Tree was released in 1977
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Good Soldier Schweik
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 04:50 AM

I am not defending Kennedys actions, i said he was wrong, stop talking rubbish.
However, Kennedy did not suppress music, which is something that Bulmer did and has done, bringing kennedy into this discussion is "irrelevant,   
My main concern has always been the treatment that our field singers have received at the hands of 'the folk business' - us 'folkies' have usually managed to find our way round the houses, especially nowadays in the Brave New World of copyrighting, especially of "arrangements". quote taken from your post.
your concern should be for ALL performers,as i said before your post is like saying its ok to rip off white people but not chinese people.
revivalist performers such as Nic Jones have in the past suffered from the likes of Bulmer , your post is inaccurate and patronising.
please stop waffling on about Kennedy but stick to discussing dave bulmer.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,Jerry.
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 05:26 AM

All this talk about Peter Kennedy simply diverts attention away from the topic of Dave Bulmer who's myriad buisness enterprises denied many people money to which they were entitled, some of these companies list members of Bulmers family as directors/shareholders, so I imagine, despite his demise, nothing will change.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 05:42 AM

"stop talking rubbish."
Sorry Dick, I have no intention of degrading this subject any further with your garbage.
If you wish to continue accusing me of misrepresenting Kennedy, I suggest you do so by disproving my descriptions of his actions rather than indulging in mud-slinging - I really don't think I have any more to say to you.
"All this talk about Peter Kennedy simply diverts attention away from the topic of Dave Bulmer"
No - all this talk about Bulmer is diverting the attention away from the fact that he was one of many - don't suppose you'd care to count up how many postings on how many threads there have been about him?
In contrast, I can't recall one single one about the general misbehaviour of our older traditional performers.
Has anybody here or elsewhere bothered to discuss or even consider how many recordings of traditional performers from the leader/Trailer Bulmer owned and sat on - or is it only the superstars who merit the attention?
Answers on a plain postcard please!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,Jerry.
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 06:02 AM

Well Jim I would suggest that you start a thread about" the general misbehaviour of our older traditional performers" and leave this one to discuss Bulmer.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 06:35 AM

Are you really suggesting that Bulmer's behaviour has nothing to do with the way traditional performers are treated in general?
Bulmer bought the rights to a treasure trove of work carried out by Bill Leader - attempts to ignore how part of that work has been debased and pretend that Bulmer is anything other than one of a number of people who have damaged out access to traditional music I find unbelievable
Bulmer was a shark in a tank full of sharks; to throw stones at him is, in the very least, yet another a futile excercise in bloodletting.
Do deal seriously with the whole tank is - perhaps, at this late hour, to perhaps to acknowledge our debt to those who gave us our music.
I'm sorry if many of these old geezers didn't play in groups, sell thousands of albums or appear on concert platforms - perhaps they would have got a little more attention if they had - sheer bloody elitism
I wonder if anybody here cares to share your opinion that Bulmers behaviour should be compartmenatised in this way?
Sorry -"general behaviour towards our older traditional performers; sorry yo whip yout typo from under you!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Good Soldier Schweik
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 07:27 AM

jim stop talking like an idiot,
i have never defended Kennedy, you are beyond belief, i have never accused you of misrepresnting kennedy,you on the other hand have suggested i am defending kennedy, when i clearly said kennedy was wrong, kennedy was not responsible for reillys death, as you seem to imply.   
can we now discuss bulmer, on the plus side for bulmer was the collection of irish tunes he printed, in my opinion his negatives outweighed his positives.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,Gerry
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 07:40 PM

"please stop it now before you drop yourself even deeper in the klarts"

Apologies for contributing to thread drift, but, please --- what are the klarts?


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Aug 13 - 08:35 PM

Sorry - thought it was self-explanatory - didn't want to use the alternative "shit" (a little like 'smeg' if you are a 'Red Dwarf' fan).
Please stop referring to this as 'thread drift' unless you are prepared to show that the behaviour of one rip-off merchant is not relevant to that of another in the same field.
Frankly, I have become sick and tired of the studiously dedicated attacks on Bulmer by people who are prepared to spend apparently limitless time and effort on him, yet (apparently) refuse to include in those discussions others who have acted far more disgracefully and destructively, because they it was older 'nonentities' who were being ripping off and not 'name' performers.
As badly as Bulmer behaved, his predatory attitude did far less damage than did Kennedy's and certainly did not include near as many individual singers - or don't you agree with that either?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,Gerry
Date: 09 Aug 13 - 01:39 AM

Jim, thanks for the explanation of "klarts".

By "thread drift", I was referring to my post, and my post only --- I was apologising because I felt I might be derailing the thread by asking for the meaning of a word.

I will take it that the rest of your most recent post was addressed to someone other than myself, as I have not made any previous contribution to this discussion. Perhaps you overlooked the difference between "Gerry" and "Jerry". I don't know who Jerry is, but he or she isn't me.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Good Soldier Schweik
Date: 09 Aug 13 - 01:41 AM

no,I do not Jim, My opinion is this it is worse to exploit people and suppress their music, than just exploit people, quite simple logic , two faults are worse than one.
that does not man that I think Kennedys behaviour was right, it was not, but in my opinion Bulmer was worse, if you do not like my opinion. tough.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Aug 13 - 04:00 AM

Oh dear, oh dear another chapter in the Jim Carroll boring monologue "I'm right everyone else is wrong"


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Aug 13 - 04:36 AM

Sorry - missed a bit Gerry
"I don't know who Jerry is, but he or she isn't me."
It wasn't aimed at you or anyone in particular.
It is one of the more shameful facts of this whole business is that if Bulmer's behaviour had been aimed at say Harry Cox, or any other source singer, it might have raised an odd eyebrow, but nothing more than that.
The fact that Jones, Bellamy and Carthy were among Bulmer's victims has generated the number of threads that it has, yet it's like pulling teeth to elicit a single tut of disapproval - on this thread or any - of the long-engrained attitude towards our field singers.
This is, as far as I'm concerned, amply underlined by your protestations at my attempts to expand this thread to the general attitude to all our singers and how they have been treated.
Tis is not "thread drift", it is just another part of a larger problem and I believe it is elitism in the extreme to call in the exorcist to try to suppress it.
But then again, the refusal to include it says as much as any discussion could.
"Oh dear, oh dear another chapter in the Jim Carroll boring monologue "I'm right everyone else is wrong"
Oh dear, oh dear, another shadowy voice from the safety of anonymity - things must be very boring in Medway, or wherever, at present.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Aug 13 - 04:53 AM

Incidentally Gerry, there are two threads on Bulmer at the present time - one referring to the 'LATE' Dave Bulmer, an indication, to me at least, that someone somewhere out there would wish to draw a line under discussion of his behaviour
There were protests of Kennedy's behaviour while he was alive - very much muted by threats of legal action - since his death there have been no significant discussions since - not really a case of "the evil that men do" living "after them" dontcha think?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Aug 13 - 06:37 AM

But where does one draw the line? Did Mr Anderson, retired miner, from whom Ewan learnt the version of The Elfin Knight best known as Scarborough Fair in the late 40s, which he recorded on The Long Harvest, get anything out of it? And then, when Martin sang it and Paul Simon learnt it and it turned up, for no relevant reason I ever fathomed, on the sound track of The Graduate & became a world #1 hit for Sim&Garf, did Ewan profit in any way? Or Martin? Or even Mr Anderson [as if!]?

And so ad ∞∞∞ ...

Not but what I certainly do consider both Bulmer & Kennedy particularly iniquitous purveyors of this particular form of abuse.

~M~


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Good Soldier Schweik
Date: 09 Aug 13 - 08:40 AM

, Jim, why dont you stop talking about field singers, why should field singers get preferential treatment above anyone else, I have already pointed out that your attitude is like a person saying it is ok to rob white people but not chinese people, the point is that nobody whoever they are should be ripped off by the likes of bulmer or kennedy.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Aug 13 - 09:11 AM

"But where does one draw the line?"
As you rightly point out Mike, the dubious behaviour goes back a long way - where does one draw the line?
Mark Anderson was recorded by MacColl and Littlewood on behalf of the BBC in the 1940s for a specific radio programme 'The Ballad Hunters' - no idea whether he was paid - BBC's record on this is not a bright and shining one -in my experience they have always acted towards non-professionals as if they were doing you a favour by including you in their programmes.
MacColl and Littlewood were certainly paid for the work they did on the programme - fair enough, they were employed by the producer, Olive Shaply to do a job.
MacColl as collector never attempted to copyright the song as far as I know - nor did he ever lay claim to ownership of it and always credited it, in my hearing anyway, to Anderson (one of his regular introductions to it).
I have no problem whatever with MacColl or Carthy or anybody singing it or recording it - that's why we do what we do as far as I'm concerned and it's what we tell our singers - we don't want their songs to die.
The song is, I think, regarded as being in Public Domain, which is as it should be.
I'm quite sure Mark Anderson wouldn't have dreamed of asking for payment for its use - in thirty years nobody ever asked us.
It's after this that we enter dark waters in my opinion.
I understand Simon got it from Dylan, who got it from Martin Carthy, who got it from Anderson's version.
I have no doubt whatever that no money changed hands as far as Marin was concerned, but I am equally sure that it was a different story with Dylan and Simon
Simon used it in an adapted but identifiable form which he copyrighted
Dylan used it for the basis of one of his songs, which he copyrighted - had it been the work of a known composer, neither his nor Simon's feet wouldn't have touched the ground regarding the legality of this.
In my opinion one of the more unsavoury practices today is the copyrighting of "arrangements - all traditional songs are, by their very nature "arranged".
Just a heads up on what Kennedy actually did (hope you're paying attention Cap'n)
He recorded singers throughout Britain and Ireland on behalf of the BBC - I don't really know if any singers were paid, but I suspect that, given the Beeb's prevailing attitude to 'the peasants', I doubt it.
The singers were asked to sign contracts passing on the rights of their material over to whoever - I think the BBC
Some of the contracts (maybe not the official ones) included not just the material recorded, but anything the singers might remember in the future.
I know from one highly regarded collector that when he approached one of Kennnedy's Devon singers much later he was told "Peter asked me not to give my songs to anybody else".
Somewhere along the way the BBC appeared to lose interest in the recordings and Kennedy took ownership of them, sold them and charged for their use - he built a business out of material that had been paid for with BBC listeners and viewers licence fees.
I've outlined his disgraceful behaviour in the Munnelly/John Reilly case.
Going on for far too long again, but a couple of stories of how all this contrasts with the attitude of some of the source singers we've met or heard about.
We recorded a magnificent old singer named Martin Reidy from Clare in the West of Ireland.
He gave us a rake of songs in his home, with its roof with a hole in it, no electricity, the only source of water was a single tap in the kitchen and the only way to preserve his meat was to hang it on a hook over the open fire (still have pictures of the fly-encrusted piece of bacon that was his staple diet).
He became quite offended once when, after we found we had forgotten to bring our customary six-pack, we tried to offer money to for "a pint on us".
When we had known him for a few years he told us "You know, I was delighted when you people started coming up for the songs - I was so worried they were would die out when I go that I tried to teach Topsy (his dog and only company) to sing them.
Another.
Cairán Mac Mathúna, the Irish collector and broadcaster used to tell the story of when he was recording an old farmer/fiddle player living in similar circumstances to Martin Reidy, in Kerry.
When they had finished the session Cairán said, "Now - there is the question of the recording fee".
The old man thought for a minute, then said, "I haven't got any money in the house just now, but I'm taking a bullock to the market tomorrow, so I'll pay you then, if that's all right".
These people really desrve better than shark-pools and indifference.
It was always the source singer' generosity that impressed us most of all, and it is the betrayal of that generosity that has appalled me the most when it comes to the treatment they have received at the hands of Kennedy and his ilk - and from the general disinterest regarding that treatment - including the not-so-veiled hostility in raising this matter shown on this thread.
Jim out-of-breath Carroll


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Aug 13 - 09:16 AM

Cross posted:
"Jim, why dont you stop talking about field singers, why should field singers get preferential treatment above anyone else"
Thank you for a perfect example for the contemptuous attitude shown by Kennedy - and now for the people who gave us our songs and music and who are the sole reason we are taking to each other - couldn't have come at a better time.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Good Soldier Schweik
Date: 09 Aug 13 - 02:33 PM

There is nothing contemptuous about it, I am saying everybody should be treated equally. whether they are black, white, field singer, revivalist, in other words everyone,EVERYONE should be treated with respect.[DO YOUR UNDERSTAND YOU BORING OLD TWAT].
Jim,you are a silly billy, who is deliberately misinterpreting what I have written , please desist.,


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Dita
Date: 09 Aug 13 - 03:56 PM

Just a comment-

Bulmer's archives contain the recordings of source singers as well as singers from the revival.

The recordings issued on the gray covered Leader records were of tradition bearers, while the Trailer recordings were from the revival.

John McC.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Aug 13 - 03:59 PM

"DO YOUR UNDERSTAND YOU BORING OLD TWAT"
I suppose this means the wedding's off?
What is it with you Dick?
Is it that the old mob brought more to folk-song than any of us ever could if we lived two lifetimes?
Or maybe it's the respect they have gained from all but a few of those who have benefited from their gift to us?
Or perhaps it's the amount of respect they have earned (present company excepted, of course) from those of us who have spent our lifetimes wallowing in what they gave us.
This is one of a long line of your displays of disregard verging on open dislike of tradition bearers - not so long ago it was "musicians who think they are God" I seem to remember.
"I am saying everybody should be treated equally"
So am ******* I saying that - nobody has suggested that their interests come before anybody's - just that they have as much right to have their grievances heard as does anybody.
You have defended the shitty behaviour of Kennedy, first by openly denying that he did anything wrong, then playing down what you have been forced to recognise he did do.
I really don't object to your giving us your little displays - they save me the trouble of providing examples of the attitude I am talking about.
For the sake of your own image, leave it out.
On second thoughts, keep up the good work - who knows, it might even shame some of the others out from the closets they appear to have slunk into,
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Good Soldier Schweik
Date: 09 Aug 13 - 08:20 PM

"This is one of a long line of your displays of disregard verging on open dislike of tradition bearers - not so long ago it was "musicians who think they are God" I seem to remember.
"I am saying everybody should be treated equally"
So am ******* I saying that - nobody has suggested that their interests come before anybody's - just that they have as much right to have their grievances heard as does anybody.
You have defended the shitty behaviour of Kennedy, first by openly denying that he did anything wrong, then playing down what you have been forced to recognise he did do.
I really don't object to your giving us your little displays - they save me the trouble of providing examples of the attitude I am talking about.
For the sake of your own image, leave it out.
On second thoughts, keep up the good work - who knows, it might even shame some of the others out from the closets they appear to have


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Good Soldier Schweik
Date: 09 Aug 13 - 08:25 PM

jIMcRROLL, appears to have finally flipped, he is accusing me of defending Kennedy, which I have never done, he also accuses me of not liking tradition bearers.
Jim if you want to live in a fantasy world do not include me ineither your pack of lies or your fantasies, kindly fuck off


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Jeri
Date: 09 Aug 13 - 09:37 PM

Dick, remember once I said you should stop commenting because not everybody here thought you were a "complete prat"?

I don't think that's true now.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Aug 13 - 03:21 AM

"Bulmer's archives contain the recordings of source singers as well as singers from the revival."
Thank you Dita - you are the first, other than my brief reference (above), to have pointed this out.
Bill Leader has been a major (nearly said "Leading", but that could have been taken as a pun) presence on the folk scene for as long as I have been involved (over half a century)
His inestimably valuable work ranges across a huge field - mainly traditional.
It seems to me totally and destructively insane to concentrate on a handful of performers who have been adversely affected by Bulmer's behaviour because they are 'folk stars'.
I have neither the desire nor the intention of spending the rest of my days carrying out a vendetta against a dead man - I have seen the damage that is still being done in making it virtually impossible to discuss the valuable research on singing techniques and analysis carried out by Ewan MacColl because of the garbage heap of personal abuse you have to scramble over to get within a mile of his work - (Ewan has now been dead for a quarter of a century).
I have no doubt that the Bulmerphobes are driven by sorting out some of the mess he left behind him - quite right - pity it's not ALL the mess, just the bit that interests them personally.
Kennedy did what he did and that's that - most of the singers are now dead and there's nothing we can do about it (I'm not just talking about the financial aspect of things - there were far more consequences arising from how he behaved).
When Pat and I started collecting in the early 1970s we took a decision that we would never attempt to make money from it (not for entirely ethical or altruistic I admit - credibility as collectors also played a part)
Every penny that came from the recordings we made and the singers we met was put back into the music - mainly in donations to support traditional music organisations. All profits from our two Irish CDs of Travellers and Clare singers go directly to The Irish Traditional Music Archive.
We got six copies of the Tom Lenihan album as payment from Topic and they gave us a set of Voice of the People for the tracks we contributed to the series (the highest payment we have ever received)
In the unlikely event of any songs we found being recorded by Elvis or The The Beatles (don't know who tops the charts nowadays) any royalties will go back to the singers' families or, failing that, to I.T.M.A.
There is no earthly reason, as far as I can see, why any money coming from the songs and music passed on from all field singers should not in some some way or other be treated similarly (in certain cases, once the expenses have been covered, of course).
If today's singers are going to make use of these songs (especially if they are going to insist on copyrighting "arrangements", I see no reason why they should not be 'asked' to donate some of what they make from this back into the preservation of the music.
We have always been aware that the Folk Arts in Britain have led a hand-to-mouth existence.
Let's face it, very few people have ever made major bucks from folk music, so this is not going to be a cure for all ills, but at least it might just help to keep it on life support.
The other major aspect of all this is making the material available.
The internet has opened up undreamed of possibilities of "passing on the songs" - what it has been all about for us from the beginning (not true of course - we couldn't begin to put a value on the pleasure we have gained from traditional music).
I suggest that those who haven't, take a look into what organisations like I.T.M.A. and The School of Scottish Studies have done in this respect.
As we witnessed a few months ago, The Vaughan Williams Memorial Library staff are slaving away at this moment (in a couple of hours time maybe) to make their holdings available (this could and should have included the fruits of the 1950s BBC mopping-up campaign, but, thanks to Kennedy's shenanigans it doesn't and won't). The National Sound Archive at the British Library has made tremendous strides in this endevour since we deposited our collection there a few decades ago - thanks to the dedication of a few and a hard won and insufficient grant.
Our collection is deposited at I.T.M.A. - thanks to their interest and work some of it went on line earlier this year and all our Clare recordings will be on the Clare County Library website by the end of the year, again, thanks to hard slog by a handful of dedicated people.
Accessibility is the key to the survival of our music; it won't be got if what we have been given is owned, claimed, copyrighted, stuck on inaccessible shelves, hoarded.......
This goes against the promise we made to every traditional singer we ever met, that we wanted to take what they had because "we didn't want it to die".   
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Aug 13 - 03:33 AM

PS
And it really is time that traditional music's relationship with PRS, MCPS and IMRO was sorted out to our advantage.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Good Soldier Schweik
Date: 10 Aug 13 - 05:50 PM

Jeri, Jim Carroll, I have never defended Peter Kennedy.
"It seems to me totally and destructively insane to concentrate on a handful of performers who have been adversely affected by Bulmer's behaviour because they are 'folk stars'"
This is another example of Carroll talking crap, many performers have had their music suppressed by Bulmer, many of them are not folk stars but folk musicians singers who have been continuing the tradition some of them are revivalist singers some of them field singers, it is completely irrelevant whether they are revivalists or field singers, my point is that ALL MUSICIANS SINGERS whether they be field singers or revivalists should be treated correctly and not exploited.
JERI,your compliments are returned.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 10 Aug 13 - 06:40 PM

Peter Laban:

FWIW, I noticed that during July there was a whole load of new-old (vinyl lp) stock from Celtic Music being sold off on Ebay by a seller in Harrogate.

When I saw what appeared to be Celtic Music selling copies of Ray Fisher's Bonnie Birdie LP (among others) on eBay, I asked the seller if they had the rights to the albums - and if so, why they didn't bring them out on CD instead of selling single copies of the vinyl. I got this reply:

im sorry to be blunt, but you are clearly showing your ignorance in these matters you really should not believe every thing you read on the internet. Two of the 4 albums you have messaged about are available on cd and have been for years! in fact bright phoebus had a radio 4 program all about how it was "lost" and is was proved on air that it was not. you might not be able to get them down at hmv but that's not our fault, try and get obscure jazz in hmv, you cant find it! some of these albums are not on cd, why is this? because they never sold enough, pouring money into a record that didn't sell is a bit stupid no? finally why are we selling the vinyl on ebay, because there are a few people out there who actually want these records, quite often overseas in country's like japan. in stead of trying to vilify us please do a bit of research and a bit of critical thinking... perhaps if people had actually bought the albums when they were released the situation would not be so.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Good Soldier Schweik
Date: 10 Aug 13 - 08:37 PM

this thread is unbelievable,
I receive abuse from Jeri, whom I have never met in person, I am accused by Jim, of saying things I have not said, and defending Kennedy, when I have not, for having no respect for bearers of the tradition, when people that know me will find that statement is completely laughable.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 10 Aug 13 - 11:17 PM

The statement on Phil Edwards posting regarding the availability of vinyl and cds has been "in the public domain" for quite along time.

Suggest that all the doubters read and digest it.

Regarding Jim Carroll's plea that the position viz-a-viz traditional music and PRS, MCPS & Imro be sorted out, that was one of the things that Dave Bulmer tried very hard to do, only to be met by corporate duplicity and bullying despite proving them wrong continually.

I have irrefutable evidence of this but am not prepared to discuss it on Mudcat or any other chat environment.

I am also loath to divulge my identity because of past diatribes by certain individuals who seem to have taken great pleasure in being extremely rude/dismissive/deliberately obstructive even when the information I have posted has been absolutely accurate and aimed only at being informative.

I am quite prepared to discuss this privately with the Mudcat team if that is possible.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Aug 13 - 04:30 AM

"traditional music and PRS, MCPS & Imro be sorted out,"
I was fascinated when I read this, my thanks for the information Guest; I sincerely hope that you get an opportunity to share your knowledge - I would love to be a fly-on-the-wall on such an occasion.
Organisations like these have milked folk-music virtually dry and are one of the reasons that Folk Music is as impoverished as it is in Britain
I was going to add Ireland, but they have to some extent leaped the wall over here, thanks to the efforts of dedicated individuals and a now co-operative Arts Council, Irish Traditional music has now gained a small but growing place in the sun, though there is some way to go yet, especially as regards song.
I can't say I have gained much from this discussion so far other than a feeling of utter despair at the total lack of interest in, even hostility towards discussing what I regard as the looting of a national treasure - Britain's 'Elgin Marbles'.
Next to the pioneering work carried out by Sharp and his colleagues, the 1950s project stands as the second most important event in British folk history, yet it has, throughout the time I have been involved in folk song, been a subject shrouded in secrecy and discussed only in whispers behind closed doors.
For nearly sixty years our access to the results of this project has been largely limited to a catalogue of shoddily produced cassettes of poor quality reproductions, sometimes disgracefully tampered with, a smattering of poorly annotated and somewhat restricted albums and a set of ten what could have been excellent heavily edited vinyl CDs much in need of remastering, filling in of the gaps and re-issuing.
I understand that one of the reasons this work was never carried out was the prohibitive royalties involved.
This doesn't even approach the rest of the material, the unissued recordings, the folklore, etc. - I have no idea whether there were any interviews carried out with the singers and and musicians.
If there were, and if they survived, this could fill in a huge gap in our knowledge of our music and song.
Even now the project appears to be surrounded by a circle of ignorance (sometimes self-imposed) - I wonder how many people have examined the vital in-house BBC annotated index of the material compiled by Marie Slocum. I am aware that there is a reference copy in The Vaughan Williams Memorial Library, but it is a work that should be on the shelf of anybody with an interest in British and Irish traditional song and Music, alongside Child, Sharp and Bronson.
The actual blow-by-blow work on the project itself is another mystery that needs to be dragged in from the shadows; the informants, the work of the other (largely ignored) collectors (Seamus Ennis, Bob Copper, Sean O'Boyle, et al), how the work was carried out..... an important piece of potential folk-literature in itself.
It seems to me that this (oh dear, not another) thread on the misdeeds of Dave Bulmer was a perfect opportunity widen the subject of the misuse of an important branch of our national heritage - it appears not (deaf ears maybe).
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Aug 13 - 04:37 AM

Oh - 200 and we appear not to have moved an inch!
Can some kind forum fairy please remove my duplicate posting - sorry
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Good Soldier Schweik
Date: 11 Aug 13 - 06:48 AM

this thread has become somewhat like a version of alice in wonderland.
for the record I was a victim of peter kennedy, he illegally recorded a folk on 2 broad cast of a song that i performed and then put it up for sale in his catalogue, Dave Bulmer has suppressed at least one recording that I was involved in.
I have never defended Kennedy.I have never shown contempt for field singers.
Jim Carroll has a habit of accusing mudcat members who disagree with him of saying things they have never said , it is to say the least tedious.
there are many singers and musicians not just "folk stars" who have had their music suppressed for years by Dave Bulmer.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 11 Aug 13 - 09:00 AM

Some of the regular contributors on Mudcat are well known for being quick to take umbrage, so it's not surprising that so much of this thread looks like a flame war, but it's still a shame, especially considering the evident widespread agreement that both Bulmer and Kennedy (and others besides) did some good but a lot that was bad.

Regarding the availability of collected material, including the material that Kennedy claimed as his: a great deal of it is now available online as a result of "The Full English" co-operation between the VWML, the National Library and other institutions, and more is being added. That resource can now stand honourably beside the ITMA and the Kist o' Riches.

Regarding the recordings that Bulmer made available either in poor quality or not at all, we can but hope that his heirs and assigns will be more helpful, once his estate has been sorted out.

Richard


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Good Soldier Schweik
Date: 11 Aug 13 - 09:03 AM

Good post,Richard


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Aug 13 - 11:33 AM

Hi Richard,
Thanks for the input.
I have to say my heart gave a leap when I read your 'Full English' collection - until I discovered that it numbered 174 of the 1500 items Kennedy is said to have collected - no Harry Cox, Sam Larner, Cecilia Costello, Robert Cinnamond, Thomas Moran..... and none of the unreleased items - a tiny tip of a very large iceberg and hardly a great deal.
Many of those tracks I don't recognise as being from the BBC project.
This is in no way to denigrate the efforts of The British Library and EFDSS, certainly given the economic straights which have been forced on Traditional music in Britain and Ireland since the BBC project sixty years ago.
My argument is, and has always been that to a large extent the behaviour of Kennedy, Bulmer and their ilk that has contributed to our failure to popularise our music and put it on the map.
The fate of this collection, is only a tiny part of the Kennedy problem, which itself is only a tiny part of a greater problem fleas upon fleas in fact.
It didn't seem too much to ask that Kennedy's behaviour and the general and long-running problem be given some attention on the latest one of fifteen threads on Dave Bulmer - apparently it was.
The argument that Kennedy/Bulmer, "whoever, did some good" (not saying that it is your overall position, but since you brought it up) is not unlike saying that Mussolini made the trains run on time.
Thanks again for being a lone voice in the wilderness.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 11 Aug 13 - 12:55 PM

Well you leave me out of it Dick., I never said you were David Bulmer OR Peter Kennedy but I do suspect you may be one of them or ai did before he died lol


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 11 Aug 13 - 04:04 PM

Jim,

"I have to say my heart gave a leap when I read your 'Full English' collection - until I discovered that it numbered 174 of the 1500 items Kennedy is said to have collected - no Harry Cox, Sam Larner, Cecilia Costello, Robert Cinnamond, Thomas Moran..... and none of the unreleased items - a tiny tip of a very large iceberg and hardly a great deal."

Sorry, my "great deal" was unclear: I was referring to material from many collectors: notebooks and correspondence as well as recordings. I had not looked to see how much of the Kennedy stuff in particular is or isn't yet available. But I do understand that the work is ongoing, so we can hope that it will all become available sooner or later.

Richard


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Aug 13 - 04:13 PM

The collection is a credit to all involved Richard - the Kennedty collection is 60 years too late to undo the massige damage done to folk-song
I really wasn't accusing you of supporting this - my experience of your views wouldn't let be believe that
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,James.
Date: 11 Aug 13 - 05:07 PM

Naturally I fully understand Jim Carroll ranting on about Peter Kennedy, totally correct, however Bulmer stole money, with the assistance of his legal chum, Neil Sharply of Linconshire, under the title of C.M. Music, many thousands of pounds, this practice continues to this day, I have access to PRS/MCPS files and know this to be correct, Bulmer may be gone but his diverse companies, the latest being HOOKSTONE, directors, Ruth Bulmer and Robert Bulmer will continue with this practce.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Aug 13 - 01:44 AM

He was my dad


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Aug 13 - 02:35 AM

James
I have no doubt that what you say is true - we have known this for a long time
I don't think that anything you say prevents us from taking a look at the whole scene and trying to put right some of the other things that have gone wrong with folksong - do you?
I do know that describing attempts to put things righ in either case as "ranting on" - both are equally worthy causes in my opinion.

Who was whose dad?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Aug 13 - 08:14 AM

I would suggest someone is saying Dave Bulmer was his Dad.

Reading the vitriol on here would be upsetting to say the least.

You guys happy now?


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Aug 13 - 08:32 AM

"You guys happy now?"
Conversely, would anybody be happy to find his dad was a tea-leaf?
What do you do - go home and forget it?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,Guest with a capital G
Date: 12 Aug 13 - 09:10 AM

Jim Carroll

Just when you were getting people on your side you have to go and post your latest unfeeling message.

The man is dead - let the family grieve!


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Aug 13 - 11:03 AM

Not unfeeling, just practical.
Kennedy ripped us all off and protected himself with legal threats
He died, and everybody said "The man is dead - let the family grieve!"
"And the rest is silence" as the bard said.
Despite the fact that there have been many dozen protests over Bulmers behaviour nothing has happened to his hoard
You said "The man is dead - let the family grieve!"
And the rest will inevitably be silence.
And the rest will be silence - or do you put your hand on your heart and solemnly promise that everything will be made right after the period of mourning.
Gi'e us a break Jimmy!!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,Morris-ey
Date: 12 Aug 13 - 11:31 AM

I think the point is that whatever family Bulmer had, they will mourn his death. Why would'nt they?


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Good Soldier Schweik
Date: 12 Aug 13 - 01:30 PM

"I don't think that anything you say prevents us from taking a look at the whole scene and trying to put right some of the other things that have gone wrong with folksong - do you?"
That was exactly my whole point, Jim Carroll said he was more concerned about Field singers,I replied by saying that EVERYBODY, not just field singers should be treated with respect, I then received abuse from somebody who I have never met called JERI.
And the usual attempts by Jim,to talk rubbish
Jeri, whoever you are, you merely illustrated that you have not got a clue.
IF BULMERS RELATIVES ARE GENUINELY CONTRIBUTING TO THIS THREAD, THE BEST THING THEY CAN DO IS START TO TREAT FOLK ARTISTS[BOTH TRADUIONAL SINGERS AND REVIVALISTS IN A WAY THAT DAVE DID NOT.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 12 Aug 13 - 02:57 PM

I have been on Mudcat for years, I have never witnessed such appalling comments as I have on this thread.

A man has died. He had family and friends who cared about him, knew him, loved him, warts and all.

I do not care, at this moment in time, what he has done or hasn't done.

I do feel for the people who knew and loved him.

If you must persist in your frankly distasteful diatribe could you at least swop personal email addresses and continue your thoughtless "conversation" in private.

I sincerely hope that when the rest of us shuffle of this mortal coil that such abysmal comments do not mark our passing.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Aug 13 - 04:17 PM

"Jim Carroll said he was more concerned about Field singers"
You've said this at least once before Dick - I would be grateful if you didn't say it again, it is neither my belief nor did I say it.
When you said "I am saying everybody should be treated equally"
My esact reply was "So am *******" - fairly memorable I would have thought - stop making things up.
We are not talking about 'degrees' of concern - we are talking about extremes - on the one hand a great deal of attention being given to one group of younger, folk-wise performers experienced enough to look after themselves, being ripped off compared to a number of usually elderly visitors to the folk scene, mostly unaware of its customs and practices and by and large, totally out of their depth - the first is highly regrettable, the second unforgivable.
The response her falls equally into two parts - extreme concern of one group (about a dozen threads worth) to total indifference verging on hostility when the other is mentioned - treated equally or what!!!.
This in no way is to say it is more or less acceptable to rip either off, both are wrong - that is what I said and that is what I believe - do not misrepresent me again.
I believe our older singers need(ed) to be more protected from bad mannered thoughtlessness (I think we once discussed septuagenarians - plus being given beds on the floor when they were booked at a club), underpaid (want to compare album and club and media fees of folk-star guests to some of our great field singers -happy to oblige with that), and how they are treated critically (I'll give you examples of a couple of reviews from one of the leading British folk magazine who's reviews of field singers would have brought tears to the eyes of their relatives had they stumbled across them on line).
I haven't mentioned the protection they need from brain-deads (mentioning no names) who describe them as "acting like gods" when they jocularly express a firmly held opinion on how a tune should be played or a song should be sung
They are/were (most of them are dead now) not of our folk world; they are'were our guests, and good manners, if nothing else, demands they be treated as such.
I certainly believe that the most mediocre of them contributed far more to my understanding of folk song that most folkies I ever met - company not excluded.
Guest,
To finish my response to your distasteful display of emotional blackmail
"The man is dead - let the family grieve!"
As I remember it, Peter Bellamy is dead, Rosie Hardman is dead (think I'm right about this - I used to know her in Manchester) Nic Jones has been out of action due to ill health for some time now and is somewhat restricted in his ability to perform - don't know if you have ever expressed your disapproval of the fact that they have all fallen foul to the behavior of the LATE Dave Bulmer -perhaps you would like to now. You would certainly make your case sound more convincing if you had done or were prepared to do so now.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Tyke
Date: 12 Aug 13 - 06:45 PM

Well I hate to say this but I agree with Raggtash have some respect no wonder Dave had little time for you or your ideas when he was alive. I think it's time Joe Offer shut this thread down and made it clear that it was mostly they same people who caused the other threads to be shut and not Dave Bulmer who quite rightly ignored the Morons and Trolls. RIP Dave


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Aug 13 - 07:54 PM

Have heard y'all tell us what a nice guy dave was - heard sfa about why he behaved the way he did -nd as for of sympathy for his victims - several of whom are either dead or ill - forget it!
Sums it all up really
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Jeri
Date: 12 Aug 13 - 09:45 PM

This thread was started quite a while ago to discuss what was, for some, an emotional issue.

There is an "Obit" thread that isn't an argument. If people don't want to get involved in arguing, they might prefer that thread.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 13 Aug 13 - 01:08 AM

As for respect, and never speaking ill of the dead, &c: I don't want to fall foul of Godwin's Law; but just think of the implications of any such prohibition being universally observed.

There do seem to have been people who suffered considerable deprivations, both financial & aesthetic, from the activities of the recently deceased; I was not one and have no personal interest in the matter: but can't help wondering just when those so offended by mention of the matter just now feel it will be OK to advert to it again. After the funeral? Or after - how long? - to provide reasonable mourning time? Or when?

Surely now, while the estate is to be executed, probate sought, &c, is the time for those with any possible interest to state it?

~M~


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Aug 13 - 03:57 AM

Rosie hardman is not dead


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Aug 13 - 04:14 AM

"Rosie hardman is not dead"
Thank you for that - I'm delighted to hear it.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Good Soldier Schweik
Date: 13 Aug 13 - 09:14 AM

Rosie Hardman is not dead, but from my understanding she is in need of any money that is owed to her, I think I am correct in saying she is unable to gig these days owing to poor health.
I repeat the best thing that can happen now is for Bulmers relatives to do the honourable thing and return master tapes in playable condition to the many artists whose music has been suppressed for many years.
Jeri, if you happen to be a moderator, might i suggest you resign, you are in my opinion clearly not suited to moderating discussion forums, you remind me of the firemen in fahrenheit 451, who didnt put out fires but started them.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 Aug 13 - 11:27 AM

[momentarily back from self imposed exile]

way I look at it..

if I lived a life being kind and generous to a few close friends and family,
whilst consistently behaving like a mean spirited complete **** to everyone else..

then it's not entirely unfair for family & friends to expect my eventual passing to be marked with less than favourable obits...


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,Morris-ey
Date: 13 Aug 13 - 12:03 PM

If I were the administrator of the Bulmer estate and read this unedifying thread, I would burn all the fecking tapes.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Aug 13 - 12:07 PM

Never has there been a more poisonous single thread


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Continuity Jones
Date: 13 Aug 13 - 12:26 PM

People are judged in death by their lives.

When Thatcher died, a great many people were delighted and refused to tow the line of RIP.

When Bulmer died, it wasn't a huge surprise to see that many people on this site aren't too upset.

I really think that if any of his friends or relatives are looking for on-line consolation, they'd know better than to look here. If they don't - if this is genuinely the first time they've heard of Bulmer's less than philanthropic behaviour - well then they have my sympathy. But as it has been pointed out many many times, Bulmer had it within his power to make other people's lives easier at no real cost to him and he chose not to.

There's a Native American saying which is bought to mind - If you stir your one stick in a puddle of shit, your one stick will come out covered in shit.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,Morris-ey
Date: 13 Aug 13 - 12:38 PM

And the continuing vitriol over the years acheived - nothing.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Continuity Jones
Date: 13 Aug 13 - 12:44 PM

And sitting back and saying nothing would have achieved - nothing.

There's another saying which has sprung to mind. For the sake of his relatives I have censored it somewhat, but you get the drift:

If he didn't want to be known as the man who tickled a pig when he died, he shouldn't have tickled a pig when he was alive.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Aug 13 - 12:49 PM

So this thread can just be summed up by tickling a pig?


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,Morris-ey
Date: 13 Aug 13 - 12:51 PM

And the winner is?


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 13 Aug 13 - 01:41 PM

"Never has there been a more poisonous single thread "

I draw no conclusion from it, but simply record the fact that nearly all the posts like the above (6 back) are the work of a GUEST who has chosen not to identify him/her·self.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 13 Aug 13 - 02:24 PM

... though I do recall a time, not a million years ago, when posts simply headed GUEST would attract a mod/clone note in red, to the effect that such posts were not acceptable, and were liable to be deleted. Has this regulation changed? If so, why were we not told? If not, then why are these anonymous posts I have drawn attention to being permitted?

~Michael~


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Aug 13 - 03:50 AM

"I would burn all the fecking tapes."
For all the access people have been given to them - or are likely to be given in the future - who'd notice?
If the 'warehouse-keepers' think for one minute that old Leader issues haven't been digitised and aren't being circulated by the owners as pirate copies among friends, they must live on another planet.
With all the attention being given to Bulmer's behaviour It's only a matter of time before some bright entrepreneur realises that, 'Thar's gold in them thar hills' and sets up a cheapo kitchen industry, which will be be to nobody's advantage - the ripped-off artists, the legally-compromised buyer and certainly not those 'waiting for the right day to dawn' only to find it's bedtime already.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 Aug 13 - 05:41 AM

BTW ~~ re the recent comments as to the present status and whereabouts of Rosie Hardman, the following not-a-million-years-ago contribution to this very thread seems to have been overlooked

From: GUEST,ROSIE HARDMAN - PM
Date: 05 Aug 12 - 05:27 AM


I commend it as being of utmost relevance and significance, and it also provides an email link for anyone wishing to contact Rosie direct.

~M~


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,London Pete
Date: 23 Aug 13 - 03:23 AM

I have no wish to re-open this debate, but recently came across this statement from Mike Yates on the Musical Traditons site. Yates was talking about his trips to the Appalachians to collect songs and tunes.

"The Far in the Mountains series of recordings was issued simply because I wanted to share the music of these remarkable singers and musicians with others. I was so lucky to have been able to make it to America and to have met up with so many fine people. If, at the end of the day, I was financially out of pocket, then it didn't really matter. It was the singing and the music that mattered, and also, of course, all those generous people who so kindly let me into their lives and homes. They enriched my life. And now, through these recordings, they can continue to enrich the lives of so many others."


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Aug 13 - 03:50 AM

Which is what it is, or should be all about.
Many of Mike's recordings put traditional music from field singers on the map for me.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,Jack T.
Date: 23 Aug 13 - 05:35 AM

Does anyone know what is happening with C.M Music now that Mr Bulmer is gone, is it still operating and who is running it.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 23 Aug 13 - 04:51 PM

Jack T. An interesting question. Maybe Mr Sharpley could reply!


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Subject: RE: Obit: The LATE Dave Bulmer (August 2013)
From: GUEST,Charles
Date: 01 Sep 13 - 10:02 AM

I had the misfortune to work for him and he was an odd mix of musician, (toured with Johnny Doonan when I first met him) but he didn't do ANYTHING for musicians unless it it profited him. He once showed me all the Bill Leader tapes and said, ' Nobody gets their hands on these, these are my retirement pension'.

'They can all fuck off'

He held 'Folkies' in contempt and he got one Irish band to record a single, one that would likely find it's way on to every jukebox in Dublin, and then held onto it, refusing to release it saying that he would release it when HE was ready.

The band split up after many years together and will probably never get their recordings back.

Dave Bulmer was no better than many rock managers, you just hope that 'Folkies' would have more genuine love for the music and musicians, he had none.

Good riddance !!!!!1


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Subject: RE: Obit: The LATE Dave Bulmer (August 2013)
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Sep 13 - 10:51 AM

Just to add to the above, and to really fair and honest to Ruth, she showed me great kindness while I worked for Dave, the little ones Jamie and Callum have lost a dad, and for those three I feel sorry.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Good Soldier Schweik
Date: 01 Sep 13 - 05:46 PM

mr sharpley was a solicitor, he was struck off.


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Subject: RE: Obit: The LATE Dave Bulmer (August 2013)
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 28 Apr 14 - 03:20 PM

Is there any update on the fate of the classic folk material that this man and his partner controlled? Will any of the Bill Leader/Trailer Records material be released or sold to another company or individual?


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