Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer

Subject: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,Litto
Date: 31 Jul 12 - 11:13 AM

Hi, I'm a new Mudcat member and I'm writing a book about Bill Leader - I don't know why nobody has done it before - and would welcome anecdotes, appreciations, brickbats and any Leader-related information from fellow Mudcatters.
>
Now, this also involves tracking the fate of Bill's Trailer and Leader labels, and this trail leads directly to Celtic Music supremo Dave Bulmer. Similarly, has anyone got any Bulmer stories? This, towards a Dave Bulmer Dossier which could form a feature of the book. Here is a Leader/Bulmer hotline - 0161 226 5461 (my name is Mike) - to ring and establish contact.
>
Incidentally, to finance the project, I've lately acquired over 1000 folk LPs from the collection of the late Ian Chappell (an outstanding collector, based in Hampshire), with the intention of selling some doubles and others on eBay. My account is one-for-every-fair-and-rainy-day and Mudcatters will receive a discount. Thanks...
>

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: G-Force
Date: 31 Jul 12 - 11:22 AM

Put Bulmer in the filter box, set the timescale to All and hit Refresh.

Then do the same with Celtic Music.

The whole sorry saga will come up.

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,Silas
Date: 31 Jul 12 - 11:40 AM

You will have to stand back for a month or two for all the threads to load....

Have you spoken to Bill?

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 Jul 12 - 11:53 AM

One key question underlying all this
[and it need not be made public as long as the 'right' people know answers]

is -

What is the condition of any surviving master tapes;
and what archival procedures are in place
to ensure future preservation for optimum quality professional state of the art digital transfer ?

Likewise, the state of unplayed 'mint' safety copy vinyl LPs if no tapes exist for particular titles ?

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Betsy
Date: 31 Jul 12 - 06:33 PM

It's a crying shame that these two names are(sadly)linked.

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Ross Campbell
Date: 31 Jul 12 - 08:18 PM

punkfolkrocker - I think I mentioned the following on another thread -

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PEOPLES-CAROL-LEADER-GRAYSLEEEVE-FOLK-LP-YORKSHIRE-/130739153289?pt=UK_Records&hash=item1e70a92989 (£29.99 + £3.50) is a typical offering from seller "yourpricemusic" currently on eBay - click on the "See other items " for a list of over 200 albums from this seller. About half of these come under the "folk" heading, and a fair proportion of those are from the former bankrupt stocks of Leader, Highway etc.

Scrolling to the bottom of the above listing shows that "yourpricemusic" has a business name of "Celtic Visions", trading from North Works, Hookstone Park, Harrogate, North Yorkshire, HG2 7DB United Kingdom.

It seems obvious that the "unplayed 'mint' safety copy vinyl LPs" you hope still exist are now up for sale. As others have pointed out, even if you buy the last available copy, you still don't have the right to release it to the world.

Ross

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 31 Jul 12 - 11:12 PM

As Silas and G-Force point out, Dave Bulmer is the featured villain here at Mudcat--the mere mention of his name sends small children under the the bed, curdles milk, and brings out the pitchforks. It is a sad testimony to the collapse of the legal system that the man still roams the streets.

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 01 Aug 12 - 03:01 AM

The legal system is not at fault, he acquired the rights perfectly lawfully and he is not obliged to do anything with them. Bill Leader and the musicians themselves could also be criticised for not agreeing more rigorous contracts; but they were more innocent times, there was a great deal of mutual trust, and I don't suppose anyone envisaged the circumstances arising. And if Bulmer hadn't acquired them, there's no guarantee that the recordings would have been reissued, the tapes might just have been wiped and reused.

His moral obligations to the musicians, Nic Jones especially, and the music world at large are a different matter. I am mystified why in his own self-interest he did not release at least some of the more popular recordings, for which there is clearly a demand and which could have been commercially successful. I can only speculate that he has some kind of grudge against the folk world and that this is his way of getting revenge.

But all this has been said before, and at much length. Good luck trawling the threads on this topic, hope you've got plenty of time on your hands!

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Aug 12 - 03:16 AM

With respect that is exactly how the legal system is at fault. What there should be is a partial reversion of rights to the artist if there is not a release reasonably sufficient to satisfy demand within a reasonable period of time - AND there should be a public interest exemption from copyright generally.

Additionally the insolvency loophole should be closed, so that the obligation to pay royalties to the artist/composer is an encumbrance on the rights. At present (unless the contract effectively specifies otherwise)if the company that contracted the artist/composer goes broke and the liquidator sells the rights to a further company, the further company has no obligation to pay royalties to the contracted parties who retain only a valueless right to sue the insolvent company.

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 01 Aug 12 - 03:50 AM

You can post questions on eBay sales pages; I posted one on the "Celtic Visions" pages where he was selling mint copies of Bright Phoebus, Ray Fisher's Bonny Birdy and a couple of others, asking why he wasn't re-releasing them, in consultation with & with royalties paid to the artists or their next-of-kin.

I got a reply by email almost immediately:

im sorry to be blunt, but you are clearly showing your ignorance in these matters you really should not believe every thing you read on the internet.
Two of the 4 albums you have messaged about are available on cd and have been for years! in fact bright phoebus had a radio 4 program all about how it was "lost" and is was proved on air that it was not. you might not be able to get them down at hmv but that's not our fault, try and get obscure jazz in hmv, you cant find it! some of these albums are not on cd, why is this? because they never sold enough, pouring money into a record that didn't sell is a bit stupid no? finally why are we selling the vinyl on ebay, because there are a few people out there who actually want these records, quite often overseas in country's like japan. in stead of trying to vilify us please do a bit of research and a bit of critical thinking...
perhaps if people had actually bought the albums when they were released the situation would not be so.

So there you go - a few of the Leader/Trailer albums are available, therefore they're not 'lost'. (They're available through channels like Amazon Marketplace, they're pressed on CD-R and cheaply packaged, and no artist royalties are paid (quite legally, as Richard says) - but they *are* available.) And the ones that aren't available, well, nobody wanted them anyway.

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,Litto
Date: 01 Aug 12 - 05:28 AM

Well I seem to have put the cat among the pigeons here.

Silas, yes I have spoken to Bill. Our interviews are lengthy and ongoing and will be the backbone of the book. They turn up really unexpected snippets. I didn't know, for example, that the address on all the old Topic Records - 27 Nassington Road, London, NW3 - was also home to Ivor Cutler.

So are the LPs Bulmer sells on eBay as 'yourpricemusic' originals or repressings? Originals presumably although stocks must be running low of the more popular items (Nic Jones, Bright Phoebus), and he does own a pressing plant, I believe. So why does he categorise them as 'new'?

Oh dear! I chanced to hear a minute (all that I could bear) of Surface by Cathy Lesurf. Can we lay that crime at his door too?

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Aug 12 - 05:53 AM

I assume you have contacted Reg Hall and Dave Bland, both long-time collegues and friends of Bill.
Also Prof R.S. (Bob) Thomson, now (I assume still) in the Dept of English At Gainesville University, Florida, though he may have retired.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 01 Aug 12 - 06:25 AM

Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer is still on the Musician's Union watchlist as of their Summer 2012 issue of the Musician. (ie artists are advised to contact MU before dealing with him).

RtS
No axe to grind, not a musician, as anyone who has heard me will confirm!

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,Silas
Date: 01 Aug 12 - 07:46 AM

Well Litto, if you are new here then you wouldn't know, but if you start any thread with the name 'Bulmer' in it......

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 01 Aug 12 - 08:48 AM

I'll say it yet again on one of these threads.

The expensive "Bright Phoebus" CD I purchased in all innocence off ebay
was not a CDR but actually a factory presed silver disc
with barebones but apparently properly printed artwork


.. and on first impression the couple of tracks I quickly sampled seemed 'ok' HiFi audio listening
on my small desk top monitors


Until I made time to sit and enjoy it with full attention on a good CD player & studio quality headphones.

That's when I was dismayed to experience dreadful distortions on Lal Waterson's vocal dynamic peaks.

I have not played the CD since - it's a shoddy audio product and a complete waste of money.

Until informed otherwise I presume it is an amateurish digital transfer,
using low grade equipment, of either a worn out tape or a poor condition vinyl LP.

It is definitely not the state of the art digital transfer and CD mastering
that this LP deserves and should receive
from today or tomorrows most capable & technologically equipped specialist professional digital transfer engineers.

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 01 Aug 12 - 08:50 AM

CORRECTION: "The expensive "Bright Phoebus" CD I purchased in all innocence off ebay"

sorry mistyping; not ebay, I meant Amazon.

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Good Soldier Schweik
Date: 01 Aug 12 - 10:38 AM

And the ones that aren't available, well, nobody wanted them anyway."
is there any proof in the above statement?highly unlikely. the man SHOULD BE AVOIDED , why else would the MU HAVE A WARNING ABOUT HIM

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,Litto
Date: 01 Aug 12 - 10:54 AM

Thanks for the pointers, Jim. Yes, I need to arrange an interview with Reg Hall as a matter of urgency. Dave Bland and Bob Thomson I didn't know about. Also, I need to speak to Gloria Leader, Karl Dallas, and Helen Leader. Who else? Oh, Dave and Toni Arthur, Bob Pegg. I tell you, the project is expanding and expanding.

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 01 Aug 12 - 11:09 AM

Dave Bland lives in Halifax. While there, be sure to speak to Pete Coe on the subject.

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: selby
Date: 01 Aug 12 - 11:15 AM

You should also interview Dave Bulmer on the grounds of consistency
Keith

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 01 Aug 12 - 11:33 AM

For those who apparently missed it, I was being droll about the legal system. The funniest thing about this ongoing saga is that no one has a sense of humor about it.

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 01 Aug 12 - 11:48 AM

There is nothing remotely "humorous" about the Bulmer impasse but it is indeed ironic that artists involved are deprived of an income from potential royalties - even Mr DB himself loses out by behaving like a prat in the manger though doing nothing actually illegal for reasons which are unfathomable.

Yes, you should interview him and see if you get any further than the Lost Leaser broadcast about Bright Phoebus.

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,Punkfolkrocker
Date: 01 Aug 12 - 12:06 PM

"no one has a sense of humor about it."

Maybe because there's too great a sense of overwhelming despondency....????

Normally I'm an 'if you don't laugh you'll cry kinda guy'
much to a lot of mudcatters annoyance.

But when it comes to precious valuable cultural heritage archives
such as movies and music and literature etc
being lost permanently
because of petty business disputes, stubborn bitter stupidity, and short term profiting asset stripping...

It's bad enough all the mass of early movies & sound recordings gone forever
because of inadequate fire-trap storage conditions
and short sighted willful destruction to clear space for new product..

Many would without doubt still be contenders for nicely profitable re-release.

Most others would surely still merit preservation in public digital 'museums' ???
[yes we know it's a complex minfield of rights & funding - but new technologies...]

You'd hope rights owners might have learnt from past unintelligent mistakes
and show some sense before it is all too late.

Even if only in their own potential financial self interest.

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 01 Aug 12 - 12:15 PM

One does understand the frustration and annoyance that artists might experience, and doubtless, some of us would enjoy the listening to some of the recordings, but, as they are the product of another time, it is doubtful that they have much sales potential.

Still, nothing seems to get folks quite as excited as a "Dave Bulmer" thread. Maybe we could do a "Reality" show--

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 01 Aug 12 - 12:26 PM

The cost just isn't a valid excuse any more. If he wanted to, he could reissue a lot of this stuff very cheaply. It's probably true that the majority of the stuff has little commercial value, but there are recordings which are very much in demand, and not just the Nic Jones stuff. CD duplication is not expensive, and it would cost very little to remaster the most commercial recordings and issue them. Not that this would help the artists, but it would at least get the music back into circulation.

As for the less commercial recordings, they could simply be offered as downloads without going to the expense of manufacturing CDs. I'm sure many people would rather have the music, even at lower recording quality, than not at all.

If Bulmer isn't interested in doing it, I'm sure there are labels which would. However all this supposes that the tapes are still in usable condition, which people who know more about these things than I do seem to think is unlikely.

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Good Soldier Schweik
Date: 01 Aug 12 - 12:57 PM

he is a wanker

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: selby
Date: 01 Aug 12 - 01:10 PM

"he is a wanker" is not a quality statement for someone who is doing a body of research/book.
This may be the opportunity in an interview for a book to find out what is happening, if DB declines to be interviewed then people can draw there own conclusions Guest Litto has asked for information, anecdotes on Bill Leader,not open season on DB again as someone pointed out earlier there is loads to read on the subject. I am sure someone like yourself GSS has interesting information to give rather than your 4 word original post

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,Litto
Date: 01 Aug 12 - 01:55 PM

Yes, I see now it was a mistake to include 'Bulmer' in the title, and thanks Selby for your thoughtfulness. I could take another tack (the book has endless possibilities). What do people know about Mervyn Plunkett? Indeed, if I changed my thread to Bill Leader/Walter Bulwer, would there be as many takers?

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Bernard
Date: 01 Aug 12 - 02:02 PM

Litto, your phone number indicates you're in the Manchester area... are you aware that Bill is a regular at the Oddfellows Arms, Niddleton, on a Monday evening along with John Howarth and friends?

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Bernard
Date: 01 Aug 12 - 02:05 PM

Erm, 'Niddleton' is an alternative spelling for 'Middleton', of course...!

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 01 Aug 12 - 02:10 PM

This thought is particularly entertaining:

"The cost just isn't a valid excuse any more. If he wanted to, he could reissue a lot of this stuff very cheaply."

It presupposes that "The Evil Dave" is accountable for not investing his money the way that you think he should.

I like this, too "As for the less commercial recordings, they could simply be offered as downloads without going to the expense of manufacturing CDs."

It ignores the fact that considerable expense is required to create the downloadable files in the first place, let alone the expense of putting it all online. And then of course, there is the effort of getting the appropriate publishing clearances, registering copyrights on the newly created materials, payment of appropriate royalties for online distribution.

Again, though I appreciate that the music is interesting, you can't save everything, because if you do, there isn't room for anything new.

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Aug 12 - 02:19 PM

Now your talking Litto - I went to the same school as Walter Bulwer - not at the same time I hasten to add!

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 01 Aug 12 - 02:25 PM

Stim, it's not too naive to suggest there may be newly evolving
cost efficient alternative ideas
that could attempt to resolve the negative traditional business model issues you raise;
at least to a reasonable degree of compromise..

A positive rational discussion with the current rights holder and surviving recording artists would be most useful....?????????

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Kevin Sheils
Date: 01 Aug 12 - 03:20 PM

Litto

Unless I've missed it I can't find any way to contact you other than posting here.

As a guest on mudcat we cannot PM you. Either sign up so that PMs can happen or provide a way to contact. You say you are a new member but all that I see is "GUEST"

I have plenty of memories of Bill and the early days of Leader/Trailer - good ones. Some of which I hinted at in the Resonance radio show I did featuring vinyl tracks on Monday. My memories are not Bulmer related as they date from well before that time but I suggest that to get the best feedback you should provide some sort of contact other than this open forum.

I also share a radio show with Reg Hall but he won't be looking here and neither will many others so help yourself by providing contact info which we can pass on.

If you have and I've missed it sorry but have looked through the postings a couple of times.

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Kevin Sheils
Date: 01 Aug 12 - 03:23 PM

Sorry just noticed you provided a Tel Number. Brave Man!

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Good Soldier Schweik
Date: 01 Aug 12 - 07:28 PM

I am sure someone like yourself GSS has interesting information to give rather than your 4 word original post."
it was not my original post

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Ross Campbell
Date: 01 Aug 12 - 11:19 PM

To come back to Bill Leader:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Leader lists some of the artists and albums he produced or engineered.

Discogs has an even more extensive discography:-
http://www.discogs.com/artist/Bill+Leader

Reinhard Zierke's excellent site has illustrated entries for his extensive collection, also explains the Leader/Trailer LEA/LER and other prefixes:-
http://www.informatik.uni-hamburg.de/~zierke/folk/records/leadertrailer.html

Musical Traditions lists the full Leader catalogue:-
http://www.mustrad.org.uk/discos/lea_txt3.htm#leader

Bill Leader recorded many albums for the Topic label. Musical Traditions introductory page describes how to search their extensive database:-
http://www.mustrad.org.uk/discos/discog.htm

And he's not finished yet - Bill Leader was at the final recording session of Folk Police label's Woodbine and Ivy Band project to provide a guiding hand:-
http://www.folkpolicerecordings.com/woodbine--ivy-band.html

Such a rich career ought certainly to be documented and celebrated. I have been buying Bill's output since first finding the Folk Trailer sampler album so many years ago. It is almost incredible that such a body of work could be accomplished by one person. I look forward to seeing Guest Litto's book.

Ross

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Aug 12 - 03:52 AM

I assume you have talked to Reg Hall and Dave Bland - both friends and former colleagues of Bill.
Also, Prof. R.S. (Bob) Thomson, who co-operated with him on the making of the magnificent 'Unto Brigg Fair' album of the Grainger Lincolnshire recordings. Bob was head of the English department in Gainesville, Florida, but may have now retired.
You might also find Karl Dallas useful (still in London I think)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,Litto
Date: 02 Aug 12 - 04:14 AM

Bernard, I'm a regular at Oddfellows myself, usually in Bill's corner and frequently with my partner Eva, somewhere in the vicinity of Bob, the scout-master, and Monica, the lovely German lady who doesn't like sad tunes but never says so. If you're around, identify yourself and say hello.

Kevin, yes, please ring - again, that's 0161 226 5461. I'm in most of the day. I need to talk to as many people as I can for a rounded picture, and your contribution would be greatly appreciated.

Ross, thanks for the encouragement and discographical tips. Some of these I'm using as sources for my own Leader discography, which I hope will be definitive. I salute Reinhard Zierke for his trailblazing, extensive discographical work. I haven't yet explored the Topic data-base, but I will, especially now I know how to get there. Woodbine and Ivy, yes, Bill was telling me about them at our last interview.

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 02 Aug 12 - 04:33 AM

Karl Dallas lives in Bradford, as does Gloria (formerly Leader). Most people you need to contact are on Facebook. Another good contact would be Janet Kerr, one of several who decamped with Bill to Halifax in the 1970s. A talented artist, she designed sleeves and worked as a sound recordist on a number of field trips.

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 02 Aug 12 - 04:40 AM

Stim, I was responding to the email from Mr Bulmer quoted by Phil Edwards. As I said in a previous post, Bulmer is under no obligation to do anything with the recordings he owns. However it seems strange to me that he does not want to exploit them commercially, when there is clearly strong demand for some of them.

Putting recordings online for downloading is cheap - $49 per album with CD Baby for example. He already owns most of the necessary rights, apart from MCPS which is also not expensive. Ideally he should also spend a bit on remastering, but people will still download them in their original state.

1000 CDs with inserts and cellophane-wrapped jewel cases can be duplicated for around £650. Even allowing for the other costs, the total probably wouldn't be much more than £1 per CD which would sell at between £10 and £15.

Not everything would have commercial value, but I have no doubt he would not lose money by making at least some of it commercially available in a proper format. He doesn't appear to be interested in doing this, or indeed in doing anything else with it. This is of course his prerogative, but it is understandable that it upsets people that some of the most significant recordings of an era are effectively unobtainable. (It also upsets them that the artists are being deprived of income from their work, which is a separate although equally, if not more, important issue).

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,Litto
Date: 02 Aug 12 - 05:42 AM

Borchester, Janet Kerr, yes, yes. Her beautiful graphic designs provided a visual identity for Leader/Trailer, and then there were her field recording trips to Carolina etc. That's two chapters; if not two books in themselves. I've also been playing her New Deal String Band record, so plenty to talk about.

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 02 Aug 12 - 07:48 AM

It might be helpful if you were able to track down Dave Emery who I think now lives in the West Midlands as he was Bill's contact in the North East when Leader/Trailer LPs were being sold around the folk clubs. He might have information about those early days.

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Bernard
Date: 02 Aug 12 - 09:19 AM

Litto - sorry, but I'm not able to be in to places at once - Monday night is Sounds of Folk on Oldham Community Radio, too!! I go straight to the studio from work, so once we've done I head off home for some food... one day, perhaps.

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,Litto
Date: 02 Aug 12 - 10:22 AM

Fair play, Bernard

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,Litto
Date: 02 Aug 12 - 10:25 AM

Thanks for the tip, Dave

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Ross Campbell
Date: 02 Aug 12 - 10:04 PM

Guest, Litto - You mentioned having some records to sell to finance your project. This eBay seller has an interesting range on offer, with a few Bill Leader classics in amongst them. This one rarely comes up nowadays:-
THE COPPER FAMILY a song for every season ULTRA RARE FOLK BOXSET 4 x LP (£75 asked)

Some interesting prices being suggested. I may have to re-assess my own collection!

Ross

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Bugsy
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 04:16 AM

This is a very interesting topic. Isn't/wasn't "Rubber Records" also mixed in this debacle also?

Dave Bulmer's grip on this material may be slowly slipping away. (see Blicky below)
"PUBLIC DOMAIN"

CHeers

Bugsy

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Kevin Sheils
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 05:15 AM

I see nothing in that link that led to your assumption Bugsy.

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,Litto,
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 01:52 PM

Ross, Interesting indeed. I noticed this - the same buyer is asking £75 for the one disc sampler of the Copper box set - and also misleads with the line "these come from my own collection". In fact, I recognise them as from the same source as the batch I'm offering i.e. the collection of the late Ian Chappell, acquired at Omega Auction in Stockport last month. I'm not fetching these prices with my LPs (auction; low starting price). £10 for Young Hunting + Poor Fellows by Tony Rose and £15 for the rare Contraband (Mae McKenna, Ossian). C'mon, Mudcatters, you don't want to prove Dave Bulmer right! This is today's listing - http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/150871483313?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1558.l2649#ht_500wt_1204

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,Litto
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 02:27 PM

Sorry, that should read "the same seller"... (above)

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Bugsy
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 09:09 PM

I was refering to the section on Public Domain. It would appear to me that some of the early recordings would soon be, if not already, in the Public Domain.

Cheers

Bugsy

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Ross Campbell
Date: 04 Aug 12 - 12:37 AM

Not sure what "early recordings" you're referring to, Bugsy.

If you mean the material in some of the "grey" albums and others which would have been transcribed from cylinder, wire or early tape or acetate recordings, the originals might well be in the public domain, but any extant examples are likely to be in the hands of libraries or private collections who can still require licencing fees for reproduction. The transcribed recordings which went to make up those albums may or may not have been copyright to Bill Leader at the time of production, and in any case would not themselves become public domain for many years.

If you mean Bill Leader's own earliest recordings, even they would still be a long way from becoming public domain. If I'm reading the article right, anything recorded after 1961 would be covered by the extension of copyright (proposed 2011 - was it enacted?) from fifty years to seventy years, ie 1961 to 2031 and so on. The Leader/Trailer output as dated in the Musical Traditions discography spans the years 1969-1977, so all would now be in the seventy-year bracket.

I did wonder what the situation would be for any recordings Bill Leader made prior to 1961, or before setting up his own label, but those would have been made for other labels who would presumably have held the original copyrights in the material they published.

Ross

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,ROSIE HARDMAN
Date: 05 Aug 12 - 05:27 AM

Sorry about this - but I really take exception to the person who said that the albums that are not released are not wanted anyway!

TWO of my albums are 'on the shelves' not being released and I can tell you very emphatically that there IS a demand for them! I get requests via my own website regularly. I tried to get the rights back to release these albums over 10 years ago and was told then by Dave Bulmer that he hoped to release them within 18 months. It just never happened.

I tried again in 2004, without success. He wouldn't even give me the rights to add them, in MP3 form, to a HUGE archive that a friend of mine took two years to put together and that we hoped to release in 2002. They were the ONLY albums for which I didn't get the rights back, where I was still able to contact the people who originally recorded them. They were such an important part of my musical history that I couldn't release the archive without them and the whole project was scuppered.

It might also be of interest that I recorded a private album with Bill Leader, completely at my own expense, in 1973 (featuring Ian Hunt, Stuart Marson, Graham Cooper and myself). It therefore belonged to ME - not to Leader records. You can read all about it on my site, under The Lost Leader (tongue in cheek title I gave it deliberately). I didn't release this until 2000 when I got the money together to have it done. The tapes were in perfect condition and were remastered digitally. It has sold through my site - and sold WELL - ever since. I tracked down Bill Leader and talked to him on the phone and he was delighted that it was doing so well. We also talked about other things so I know exactly how he feels about them.

The success of The Lost Leader stimulated me into re-releasing my Plant Life albums and the contrast between their attitude & Celtic's was poles apart. I got the rights back to all my Plant Life albums without a single problem - because as they said - they weren't going to release them and they felt that the music ought to be 'out there' earning money for me and giving people pleasure. What a refreshing attitude! All those albums have sold solidly since via my site.

I did some 'one-off' gigs in 2006, 7, 8 and 9 which all sold out almost immediately and which generated good sales again for my Plant Life albums and would have been a perfect chance to release my Leader albums... but again, NOTHING happened.

When it comes to 'signing contracts more rigorously' - in the early 70s when I signed with Bill Leader, I was young and yes, naive. Being asked to sign with Bill Leader was one of the greatest accolades that any artist on the British Folk Scene could earn at that time and nobody in their right mind turned down the chance. It never occurred to me, nor, I am sure, to many other artistes, that our work could or would be sold from underneath us without someone having to re-negotiate the contract!

The law IS to blame - for allowing people like Bulmer to buy people's work without a re-negotiation of contracts with the people who wrote and/or recorded the material. There should at LEAST be a time-limit for releasing the material, upon the expiration of which rights are returned to the artiste/composer etc. As we all know though - the law is often an ass. However - just because someone has the legal rights to something doesn't mean that they should ignore the ethics of the situation.

When it comes to people getting heated on the subject - I am now heading for 70, disabled and on a very low pension. I would LOVE to have these albums out again and making even a little money for me. My work, from any era, SHOULD be providing me with income where possible. However, despite this, to me, obvious MORAL & ETHICAL fact, they are stuck on some shelves somewhere, unheard, when they could be enjoyed by my fans, old and new. So if I sound angry, it's because I AM flippin' angry - and I am certainly not going to pretend otherwise.   

Lo and behold - what has just dropped into my Inbox? An email asking me if I have Firebird available on CD! Q. E. D. Another one to join the growing list of emails from people waiting for CDs of Second Season Came or Firebird.

Anyone wanting to contact me - you know where I am - www.rosiehardman.com/rosie.htm

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Ross Campbell
Date: 05 Aug 12 - 08:03 AM

Click on the link:- www.rosiehardman.com/rosie.htm

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Ross Campbell
Date: 05 Aug 12 - 08:18 AM

Many artists have recovered rights from other labels to enable the re-release of albums which would no longer make commercial sense for the labels themselves to reproduce, but which do have a limited demand, whether from old fans replacing vinyl copies or new fans seeking older material.

It is Celtic Music's intransigence in refusing to deal in this way that baffles and infuriates so many people.

Ross

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Good Soldier Schweik
Date: 05 Aug 12 - 10:18 AM

I agree with,Rosie,
which is why i referred to him as a wanker, i made an lp with the new mexborough concertina quartet, which was made on richrd digances label dam buster, the recording was sold to bulmer without our approval nor were we even asked.
I have been approached by potential customers, i know there is a demand.
i take exception to the remark no demand,
I also recorded a SOLO lp with Carthy playing guitar,which Bulmer has in his possession dont tell me there is no demand.
Dave Bulmer makes me sick.Dick Miles

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Ian Hendrie
Date: 05 Aug 12 - 12:06 PM

The Rosie Hardman link doesn't work because of a www.mudcat.org prefix being added. I tried to make a working link but encountered the same problem.

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 05 Aug 12 - 12:14 PM

http://www.rosiehardman.com/rosie.htm

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Ian Hendrie
Date: 05 Aug 12 - 12:42 PM

Thanks for that.

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,Sean, Lincs.
Date: 05 Aug 12 - 05:28 PM

Any mention of Bulmer in connection with music corrupt practice should always be in the company of Neil Sharpley, Bulmer's legal henchman from Licolnshire, who prospers to this day in Louth despite, or perhaps because, he knows dishonesty pays.

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 05 Aug 12 - 06:32 PM

I really take exception to the person who said that the albums that are not released are not wanted anyway!

In case it wasn't obvious, I was paraphrasing Bulmer when I wrote that - and I don't agree with him!

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Ross Campbell
Date: 06 Aug 12 - 01:41 AM

Apologies for the bad link. Forgot to check it myself.

Ross

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,mindthetrams
Date: 07 Oct 12 - 04:27 PM

I don't begin to understand the issues that some people have with Dave Bulmer. Having played with him for many years at gigs and in sessions, I have yet to meet anyone who has such an encyclopaedic knowledge of Irish traditional tunes and who has done so much to promote traditional music - either through his books ( Bulmer & Sharpley) or just by osmosis in sessions.
I suspect that a lot of people think that their music is worth more than it actually is. There are thousands of singer/songwriters out there who are actually quite boring and whose recordings are not worth preserving - far less worth producing and promulgating!
A values issue? Discuss!

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Oct 12 - 05:59 PM

Discuss what? You're either Bulmer's uncle or you're a feckin' eejit. Discuss.

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,c.g.
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 04:37 AM

OK, mindthetrams, you know him so well. Ask him why he won't release material. Then post his reply here.

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Howard Jones
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 08:11 AM

Mindthtrams, I think this is what puzzles so many people. He did indeed do a great deal to promote traditional music (I have two of his Irish tunebooks), which is why it is such a mystery that he refuses to release the material he owns.

If you do indeed know him then please ask him why, if he doesn't think it's worthwhile commercially for him to release these albums, he won't give permission for the musicians themselves to do it.

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: theleveller
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 11:16 AM

"There are thousands of singer/songwriters out there who are actually quite boring and whose recordings are not worth preserving - far less worth producing and promulgating!"

One of the most arrogant statements I've ever seen on Mudcat. What, exactly, makes your opinion so valuable - and what contribution have you made to the folk music scene? Discuss!

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Oct 12 - 01:12 PM

Yes. It is Morton's fork. Either the recordings are of market value so should be released or they are not so they should revert.

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,Henry Farley,
Date: 09 Oct 12 - 05:10 AM

Dave Bulmer aquired the recordings he holds quite legally, there was little demand for them at the time but he maybe thought one or two of them would become viable again. This has with very limited exeption proved not to be the case and even if it did happen the artists concerned would receive no royalties, Bulmer and his legal chum Neil Sharpley would pocket the lot, even if a royalty agreement had been signed.
A simple enquiry to PRS or MCPS would verify this.

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,Concerned of Tunbridge
Date: 09 Oct 12 - 06:50 AM

Question:- If the recordings held by Dave are of no commercial value to him why does he not sell them back to the original artistes thus at least realising some financial return on the original cost of his investment.

Could it be that we, the folk fraternity, have really cheesed him off with the somewhat acid, nay vitriolic, criticism of him over the years.

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 09 Oct 12 - 07:17 AM

"Yes. It is Morton's fork. Either the recordings are of market value so should be released or they are not so they should revert."

Too right. In 2012, what with things like Bandcamp and AmazingTunes, it has never been easier to put out music for sale.

That Dave Bulmer clearly has perverse and petty ulterior motives couldn't be clearer.

If I were one of the aggreived parties, with an album Bulmer is sitting on, I would just covertly (or even not-so covertly) bootleg it. I'd make my own pressings, and stick em on eBay. Make my own digital versions, and stick em on Bandcamp. And dare him to do anything about it.

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,Alistair Russell
Date: 09 Oct 12 - 04:07 PM

Hello Litto and all interested parties. I was there at the beginning of CM - my vinyl album Tripping Upstairs with Tom Napper was CM002.
I've since become a bit experienced at the technical side of the recording game.
Like everyone else here, I have opinions and observations about Bulmer, Leader, viability of CD releases, relative merits of various early folk labels and so on. I'll be glad to have an email exchange with you about it, Litto, or even meet up for a chat. Like many parties involved in this matter, I'm in West Yorkshire.
All the best, Alistair [e-mail]

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 09 Oct 12 - 05:14 PM

As I recall, folks here bitched just as loudly when he did release some.

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Oct 12 - 06:51 PM

And what kind of releases were they, Dick?

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Oct 12 - 06:55 PM

That was me.

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 09 Oct 12 - 07:19 PM

The releases were, and are CD-Rs. So what?

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Oct 12 - 07:23 PM

So they were not properly remastered re-releases on proper CDs and they were not properly packaged with proper inserts and there were no royalties for the artist. That's so what, fer chrissake.

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 09 Oct 12 - 08:20 PM

THe question of royalties has to to with contracts, and has nothing at all to do with whether it's a "proper" CD or a CD-R. I agree, it would be nice if they were re-mastered (though they're certainly quite listenable), and I miss the notes, but they're certainly available, which, IMO is a hell of a lot better than not having them available.
And wotinhell is a "proper" insert?

If you want to complain about Bulmer, you might look at his actions in preventing Free Reed from using the Bellamy material they had included in Wake the Vaulted Echoes.

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,raymond greenoaken
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 05:34 AM

Where do we look, Dick? Can you shine a little light on it?

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Howard Jones
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 07:26 AM

Dick is quite right, the question of royalties (which seems to get people particularly exercised) is a contractual matter and it would make no difference if Bulmer were to release the albums. Not everything in his portfolio will be worth releasing, but there is clearly demand for some of them. But if he doesn't want to do it himself, he could sell the rights back to the artists.

Yes, the music is available - if you know that a particular album is part of his stable in the first place, and then only if you know how to track down Mr Bulmer to get in touch with him, as he seems to keep a low profile. When I want to buy a record I don't usually expect to have to carry out a search at Companies House to track down the record label, I expect to go into a shop or buy online. So it's a very restricted meaning of "available".

Secondly, the copies he supplies are on CD-R. Now that is indeed better than nothing, but a search on here will turn up a number of complaints about the quality. Proper CDs are now cheap to produce, putting sound files online even cheaper.

As things stand, everyone is losing. Artists are losing the opportunity to sell albums, fans are losing the opportunity to buy them, and Mr Bulmer is getting little or no return on his investment. It doesn't take much imagination to see how this could be improved for everyone.

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,Henry Farley.
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 07:47 AM

Bulmer and Sharpley not only own large numbers of recordings but through Celtic Music they are also publishers which means that every time a track from their vast catalogue is broadcast, and many still are they receive royalties, a percentage, usually 50% is paid to the artist, this is not done. Were Bulmer to relinquish rights to these recordings this income would be lost. Neil Sharpley is clever enough to know that the artists in question do not have the money to challenge them through the courts.

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Howard Jones
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 03:07 PM

He does not have to relinquish rights, he could negotiate deals with the artists which would benefit both parties.

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 03:26 PM

There is a tendency to vastly overtate the amount of money involved in folk CDs. First of all, royallties typically are about 15%. Secondly sales of folk CDs, with very few exceptions, alre almost exclusively limited to sales made by performers at places where they're performing.
    Searching for a CD doesn't necessarily involve searching through each publisher's catalog---that's what retailers (including CAMSCO) are for.
    And, regarding durability of CD-Rs, I can only speak for my own business, but CD-Rs carry the same warranty a pressed CDs.
    Lastly, at least one major folk CD publisher in the UK (as well as 2 major folk publishers in the US) produce CD-Rs. It's the only feasible way to supply a small (and diminishing) market.Complaining tht they're not "proper CDs is like complaining thet CDs aren't "proper" LPs.

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Good Soldier Schweik
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 03:35 PM

it is not just about royalties it is about having control over material THAT INVOLVED LOTS OF BLOOD SWEAT AND TEARS,
I would definitely benefit from having the Mexborough recordings issued plus Cheating the Tide with Martin Carthy, even if it was ONLY from the point of publicity.

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 04:17 PM

Sadly, most contracts written in the 60s and 70s relinquished all such control, Permanently.

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,CJ
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 05:56 PM

CDrs are not as long lasting as CDs. When you buy a CDr from C# House they recommend you make a copy onto your hard drive sooner rather than later.

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 06:46 PM

CD-Rs are for temporary storage only. You can run off a hundred for about ten quid from a batch of blanks you bought at Asda. And stick 'em in covers you bought for a quid for 70 in the Pound Shop. Pretending you're rereleasing an album by releasing it on CD-R is taking the piss. As for royalties, Dick, I don't give a monkey's bloody mickey whether the artist gets 15p or 15 grand as long as the principle of recompensing the artist is honoured. Principle, Dick.

And come on, make a case that Noah's Ark Trap would not be commercially viable. Ferchrissake!

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Howard Jones
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 06:55 PM

The question of royalties is a red herring. As has been pointed out, under the terms of the contracts the artists wouldn't be entitled to royalties even if the albums were released. However, not only is Bulmer not releasing the albums himself, he appears to be unwilling to negotiate with artists who would like the opportunity to re-release their own material. For some of these, this would be a small but important contribution to their income. If he doesn't want to exploit his assets himself, his refusal to allow them to benefit from their own work strikes many as morally wrong.

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 07:04 PM

Whaddya mean, "strikes many"? It bloody well is morally wrong.

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 08:24 PM

Steve. You're wrong, I make no case for Bulmer's ethics or morality, but hi is releasing some of the albums, if not in the form that suits you.And I've encountered nothing about CD-Rs that limits them to temporary storage. The low cost of producing CD-Rs is what makes it possible to satisfy what is actually a tiny market. I have no Idea how well Noah's Ark Trap would sell (I'd buy it), but I do know that, in the US, at least, I've sold a half-dozen copies of Unearthed since it's been released.

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 08:51 PM

And how many copies of Unearthed have sold altogether? I have it and I know of at least one other bloke who has it. I live in the middle of nowhere yet I already know a third as many people who have it as the 300 million in the US who you've failed to sell it to.

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 09:08 PM

If you have a vested commercial interest in selling CDr products
then they are bloody marvellous !!!

But for the rest of us,
we are all too aware of CDr limitations as a reliable long term, or even medium term, storage media.


Though surely 'debate' about the 'merits' of CDr is just a distraction from the main topic
of this thread.....???

Sadly, stubborn bitter petty spiteful wrangling about disputed ownership rights
is all too common a factor
preventing release of cherished 'vintage' recorded music & movies.
Often persisting for far too long after the artists are deceased
and master tapes & negatives have perished from neglect & poor storage conditions,
or mean spirited wilful destruction.

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Howard Jones
Date: 11 Oct 12 - 03:14 AM

Let's accept that Mr Bulmer is acting entirely lawfully. He owns the assets, it's up to him what he does with them. As I understand it, he cannot yet be required to return the rights to the original artists if he doesn't want to make use of them himself.

Let us also accept that under the terms of the original contracts the original artists will receive no royalties if the albums are released. It may have been naive of them, but they signed the contracts and must live with the consequences.

However:

1) When one of a record label's principal artists suffers a life-changing accident and loses his livelihood, one would expect that most record labels would look beyond the small print of the contract and try to help. Especially if they have no intention of releasing his albums themselves.

Nic Jones is perhaps an extreme example, but we've heard from other artists who would be glad of the chance to sell some of the old recordings. And it's not just about money - a recording represents a huge commitment of time and emotional effort, and artists want to see those albums available and to be able to sell them at gigs or through their websites. So why won't Bulmer deal with them to allow this to happen?

2) Bill Leader's recordings represented some of the most important developments in folk music of their time, as well as a lot of significant source recordings. Whilst those recordings are not "lost", in the sense that there must be many original copies out there, it is a matter of regret that they are not more widely available. If it is not worth releasing them as CDs, it is very cheap to put them online.

3) Bulmer's attitude makes no commercial sense to anyone. With a few exceptions, he won't exploit them himself, and he won't make them available to others. That's a lose-lose all round.

4) In doing so, he has completely trashed his own reputation on the folk scene.

The question no one seems to be able to get an answer to is, why?

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 11 Oct 12 - 07:39 AM

There is a tendency to vastly overtate the amount of money involved in folk CDs.

True.

First of all, royallties typically are about 15%.

That's the industry model. Over the past 30 odd years, in the UK at least, plenty of small labels have used the 50/50 profit share approach pioneered by the likes of Rough Trade. The label recoups its investment and splits the profits with the artists. This usually doesn't amount to much money, though...

Secondly sales of folk CDs, with very few exceptions, alre almost exclusively limited to sales made by performers at places where they're performing.

Nearly all the albums my label has released have been sold online or via record shops. A minority of sales have been at gigs. I accept that maay not be typical, but it's true.

Searching for a CD doesn't necessarily involve searching through each publisher's catalog---that's what retailers (including CAMSCO) are for.

A quick scout of the internet reveals that very few retailers stock CM product.

And, regarding durability of CD-Rs, I can only speak for my own business, but CD-Rs carry the same warranty a pressed CDs.

There's not really any excuse to use CDrs when glass mastered CDs are available in runs of as little as 100. And not only should CDrs be clearly identified as such, it shouldn't be left to responsible retailers to do this but should be the job of the record label.

Lastly, at least one major folk CD publisher in the UK (as well as 2 major folk publishers in the US) produce CD-Rs.

That's fine as long as they are not trying to pass them off as glass mastered CDs. I've seen CM reissues and there is no indication anywhere on the disc or packaging that these are CDrs. This omission is dishonest.

It's the only feasible way to supply a small (and diminishing) market.

No it's not. The manufacturer I use does runs of glass mastered CDs starting at 100 copies. You can even get a run of vinyl albums from 100 copies. Making material available via a download retailer such as Bandcamp has never been easier. The expense - apart from your time - is in getting the masters (or the vinyl) professionally digitised. There are services that do this that charge a low enough fee to make even a potentially low selling reissue potentially viable over time.

Complaining tht they're not "proper CDs is like complaining thet CDs aren't "proper" LPs

No it's not. A CDr is not a glass mastered CD. I've absolutely no problem with people selling them, and have bought loads myself over the years, but they need to be above board about it. It helps the customer make an informed choice about what they spend their money on.

And unlike a CD, I always make a digital back up of any CDr I buy because I've had too many crap out on me.

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,Jim Moray
Date: 11 Oct 12 - 09:08 AM

A small point before I sink into the ether again...

I don't think the use of CDRs rather than glass mastered CDs on CM product is about cost, I think it's because CDRs are exempt from needing an MCPS licence. In other words it's a further attempt to avoid mechanical royalties.

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Oct 12 - 09:14 AM

Thanks for the heads up on MCPS Jim, an interesting point given the large number of CD-R products that I've seen this year!

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 11 Oct 12 - 09:17 AM

Jim - succinct, to the point and spot on!

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,Jenny.
Date: 11 Oct 12 - 09:44 AM

Avoiding paying royalties is what it's all about, what do you think Bulmer lives on.

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Howard Jones
Date: 11 Oct 12 - 01:49 PM

Is that correct about MCPS? I don't see why the media should make a difference. There are different rates for music on DVDs, downloads etc but if copyright music is used then royalties are payable.

The MCPS AP2 application doesn't distinguish CD from CD-R, and manufacturers say they require a MCPS certificate for all audio products, whether CD-Rs or 'proper' CDs. There is a Limited Manufacture Licence for less than 1000 units, but this applies whether its on CD, LP or cassette.

So far as I am aware the only exemptions from royalties are where you are recording your own material, or the material isn't controlled by MCPS (in which case you have to agree terms direct with the rights holder).

I'm happy to proved wrong on this.

Bulmer doesn't need to go through these hoops to avoid royalties due to the terms of the original contracts signed by the artists (which in fairness were not entered into with him, he has just acquired the rights)

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,Don Wise
Date: 11 Oct 12 - 02:32 PM

If it's not clear on the packaging that it's a CD-R rather than a CD could this be an infringement of the Trades Descriptions Act?

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 11 Oct 12 - 03:17 PM

I was signed to Bulmer once. We got around his shenanigans by instead of buying our records off him to sell at gigs, we sneaked in the back door of the warehouse and stole boxes of them. It worked out fine. I'm not sure he ever knew, I don't think stock taking was his thing.

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Oct 12 - 03:17 PM

I can assure y'all that you have to pay yer dues to composers whether you make a proper CD or a CD-R. Personal experience!

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Oct 12 - 03:55 PM

CDRs are not exempt from MCPS royalties if you're bulk producing them for sale. However you can produce them yourself and get away without declaring them to the MCPS because legit pressing facilities require you to show your MCPS licence. As I understand it, Bulmer owns his own pressing facility. Follow your own logic.

His print & repackaging - booklets and inlays - are cheapskate too.

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: pavane
Date: 11 Oct 12 - 05:42 PM

The points about MCPS and CD-R have all been made in previous threads too. You can pay MCPS for a licence for a small number, and put MCPS log on the disk, but then who is to say how many you actually made, if you are doing it yourself.

I don't suppose anyone fom MCPS is going around counting them, even if they could. (Might be a problem if one of them got into the charts, though!)

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 11 Oct 12 - 05:49 PM

not really, you can chart for less than a thousand sales nowadays

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Oct 12 - 05:50 PM

Spot on, pavane.

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: pavane
Date: 11 Oct 12 - 05:55 PM

And don't forget, royalties are payable to the copyright owners of the lyrics/songs/tunes as well as the performers.

This is a REAL minefield, especially bearing in mind the well-known story of the people who went around claiming copyright of existing traditional songs. One famous example is Wild Mountain Thyme, which is clearly based on Robert Tannahill's Braes o' Balquidder from the 1790's - see below. There is nothing to stop anyone doing that even now.

It would be really difficult to find a single album of "traditional" music where all songs/tunes are public domain. So we can assume that royalties are being avoided if none are paid.

From Braes o' Balquidder:
I will twine thee a bower
By the clear siller fountain,
An' I'll cover it o'er
Wi' the flowers o' the mountain;

Will ye go, lassie, go,
To the braes o' Balquhidder?
Where the blaeberries grow,
'Mang the bonnie bloomin' heather;

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: pavane
Date: 11 Oct 12 - 05:57 PM

You can pay MCPS based on as few as 250 copies

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: pavane
Date: 11 Oct 12 - 05:59 PM

So perhaps if we all decided on one album, and went out and bought it in the same week, we could embarrass DB by getting it into the charts?

On the other hand, he wouldn't care because he would make money out of it.

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 11 Oct 12 - 06:23 PM

Actually there are plenty of manufacturers out there who will press you up a couple of hundred Cdrs no questions asked. There again, there are places you can get glass mastered CDs pressed up no questions asked. Not that I'm advocating this, of course!

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 11 Oct 12 - 07:09 PM

Is there anything to stop an artist, whose work is held by Celtic Music, recording some or all of the songs again, perhaps with a slightly different arrangement, and have them issued through a different company?

DC

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Bugsy
Date: 11 Oct 12 - 07:54 PM

"Is there anything to stop an artist, whose work is held by Celtic Music, recording some or all of the songs again, perhaps with a slightly different arrangement, and have them issued through a different company?"

You mean, Like Bob Fox and Stu Luckley did?

Cheers

Bugsy

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,raymond greenoaken
Date: 12 Oct 12 - 04:40 AM

>Is there anything to stop an artist, whose work is held by Celtic Music, recording some or all of the songs again, perhaps with a slightly different arrangement, and have them issued through a different company?<

The expense, perhaps?

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 12 Oct 12 - 04:54 AM

The expense, perhaps?

If the music being sat upon by CM is any good, then maybe the payback would be worth the expense.
If it's not worth the expense then perhaps that is why CM is not doing anything with it.


DC

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 12 Oct 12 - 05:11 AM

I've just re-read what I have written and it seems to imply something that I didn't intend, So, before someone gives me a verbal beating up, please let me say ………. I am not suggesting that all, or even most of the music being withheld is worthless. Obviously, someone thought it was good enough to record in the first place.

I am also aware some of the music cannot be re-recorded at this late stage as groups may have broken up, the performers' circumstances may have changed or some may no longer be alive. But for those that can ……… ?


DC

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 12 Oct 12 - 05:18 AM

>Is there anything to stop an artist, whose work is held by Celtic Music, recording some or all of the songs again, perhaps with a slightly different arrangement, and have them issued through a different company?<

These would of course be totally different albums. The artists are older and not all of the are still performing, or indeed still with us. And they wouldn't have Bill Leader presiding over the recording. To these ears, 70s albums on Trailer sound nothing like modern folk albums. I own quite a few Trailer releases on vinyl and there's something quite special and magical about these releases that to me has generally been lost on most modern folk albums. There's a rawness and directness and lack or artifice that would be hard to replicate.

I just wish more current folk albums sounded like Trailer releases, really...

Also call me a purist, but (for example) there's an ocean of diffrence between Mike & Lal Waterson's Bright Phoebus and the tribute album that came out a few years back. Not a value judgement, but the two things aren't the same.

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Oct 12 - 05:20 AM

Is there anything to stop an artist, whose work is held by Celtic Music, recording some or all of the songs again, perhaps with a slightly different arrangement, and have them issued through a different company?

The performing deterioration of the 35-40 years since they were first recorded? Having had, oh I don't know, something like a terrible car crash or having died of cancer. The fact that what people want is the original recordings?

There should simply be a "use it or lose it" law where ownership of recordings is concerned. If a label hasn't made something commercially available (and the law would have to be phrased to avoid getting around it by putting out a few dozen shoddy CDRs) for a long period of time and the recording has passed a certain age, the rights should revert to the artist. Let's say it's 25 years old and hasn't been available for 10, or something like that.

I was reading recently that the Transatlantic and B&C catalogues are now owned by Universal after having been aquired from Castle who went bust. Similar story. The difference is that Universal will license them for re-release but only if totally unrealistic arms and legs are paid. So whilst re-issues of Pentangle or early Steeleye might be viable, you won't be seeing anything like The Young Tradition along any time soon either.

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 12 Oct 12 - 05:45 AM

…… And they wouldn't have Bill Leader presiding over the recording. To these ears, 70s albums on Trailer sound nothing like modern folk albums. I own quite a few Trailer releases on vinyl and there's something quite special and magical about these releases that to me has generally been lost on most modern folk albums. There's a rawness and directness and lack or artifice that would be hard to replicate.

Yes, I take your point.

DC

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,Jenny.
Date: 12 Oct 12 - 07:55 AM

Many of the songs to which Bulmer owns copywright have been recorded on other labels, and by other artists, royalties on these songs are still paid to Bulmer, neither PRS or MCPS will give any information to a songwriter who requests information on this matter without a legal request.

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: G-Force
Date: 12 Oct 12 - 08:56 AM

There should simply be a "use it or lose it" law where ownership of recordings is concerned. If a label hasn't made something commercially available (and the law would have to be phrased to avoid getting around it by putting out a few dozen shoddy CDRs) for a long period of time and the recording has passed a certain age, the rights should revert to the artist. Let's say it's 25 years old and hasn't been available for 10, or something like that.

A bit like patent law. You may have a patent for your invention, but if you don't exploit your invention, your patent can be got round.

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,raymond greenoaken
Date: 12 Oct 12 - 09:06 AM

A dusty memory: more than twenty years a then-employee of Bulmer's smuggled me into CM HQ for a sniff around. Seeing the stockroom was an eye-opener. Not only did CM have the Leader/Trailer/Dambuster/Highway etc catalogues, they also had a whole load of stuff that would later come to be called World Music - I was particularly struck by a six-disc box set entitled The Griots. Pretty rare stock, I would imagine — and presumably it's all still sitting there in Fortress Harrogate, where the sun never shines.

At the time they were reprinting various items from the Leader catalogue on cassette — Seamus Ennis for example. One would hardly expect Seamus to be a mega-seller, but there it is: they really did seem to have a plan for reissuing important but not necessarily commercial stuff. And nowadays CD-Roms are cheaper than blank cassettes were then. At what point did Satan enter the body of Dave Bulmer and consign all his good intentions to the dustbin of history? And why would any sane man want to attract the rage and contempt of virtually the entire folk scene? What is the capital of Upper Volta? etc etc etc...

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,raymond greenoaken
Date: 12 Oct 12 - 09:08 AM

"more than twenty years ago", even...

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 12 Oct 12 - 01:56 PM

Bulmer has no right to the songs themselves--only to the specific recordings. And I'd submit that the suggestion of making them downloadable MP3s would result in considerably lower sound quality
than is provided in CD-Rs.

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,sturgeon
Date: 12 Oct 12 - 02:02 PM

Pavane wrote 'It would be really difficult to find a single album of "traditional" music where all songs/tunes are public domain.'

Not true, the majority of albums of sean-nós singing are exactly that.

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Howard Jones
Date: 12 Oct 12 - 05:26 PM

I'd submit that the suggestion of making them downloadable MP3s would result in considerably lower sound quality
than is provided in CD-Rs.

Perhaps, but sites like Bandcamp offer alternative high-quality formats. Besides, the objection to CD-Rs is their longevity rather than recording quality.

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,Mary
Date: 14 Nov 12 - 04:39 PM

Just chanced on this thread today. I thought you might like to know that Rab Noakes (http://www.go2neon.com/rab-noakes.htm) made a series of programmes about Bill Leader about 15 years ago. I think it was called "Leader's Tapes". Rab might still have a copy.

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 14 Nov 12 - 06:02 PM

"Let's accept that Mr Bulmer is acting entirely lawfully. He owns the assets, it's up to him what he does with them. As I understand it, he cannot yet be required to return the rights to the original artists if he doesn't want to make use of them himself.

Let us also accept that under the terms of the original contracts the original artists will receive no royalties if the albums are released. It may have been naive of them, but they signed the contracts and must live with the consequences.

The question no one seems to be able to get an answer to is, why?"

The impression I got (from that Bright Phoebus documentary) is simply financial (and petty). He believes he can't make any money out of them but isn't prepared to release them to anybody else. Perhaps because a part of him can't bear the thought that somebody else could do something - anything - with something he regards as his and his alone. I'd say that's probably it.

I think musicians should just publish and be damned though. In the case of Bulmer-owned releases, I think people should just file-share them like crazy.

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Nov 12 - 07:12 PM

Fine, matt, but don't forget that many of us who have posted ad nauseam about this down the years wish to abide by the principle that Nic and all the others should get proper recompense for any of their stuff that goes out there.

I have a shitty cassette version (it's the cassette that's shitty), about 20 years old, copied from another cassette, that was made from a knackered old vinyl copy, even older, of The Noah's Ark Trap. The recording quality is so awful yet the sublime music shines through. I want a nice version of that album sometime before I die. I wouldn't mind betting that I could find something ten times better online than what I have now within five minutes. I haven't looked and I'm not going to.

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: Bugsy
Date: 15 Nov 12 - 12:33 AM

Whilst I understand and agree with your sentiments Steve, if you want a better version than you have, what's wrong with downloading the online version and sending a couple of bucks to Nick?

Cheers

Cheers

Bugsy

Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Nov 12 - 04:55 AM

"Fine, matt, but don't forget that many of us who have posted ad nauseam about this down the years wish to abide by the principle that Nic and all the others should get proper recompense for any of their stuff that goes out there."

Yeah, which is why I'd be perfectly happy to see one of those album filesharing blogs (Time Has Told Me et al) hosting those albums, only with a Paypal address below.

In this day and age "proper" recompense for recordings - especially niche folk recordings - isn't exactly going to be megabucks. A "pay what you can" to a Paypal address via a music blog strikes me as the ideal illegal but morally correct way to get round the Bulmer situation.

If I were ever in the position that an album I'd made (which I thought was actually really good) was being sat on and left to rot by an evil record label, I would just put it on Bandcamp, charge for it, and see them in court.

Some friends of mine who were in a hip-hop act in the 1990s noticed that copies of an out-of-print album of theirs (on a now-defunct record label) were going for a lot of money on eBay. So they bootlegged their own album - did a re-press.

Of course, you'd have to stick to your guns, cos I imagine Dave Bulmer is enough of a c**t to try to sue you if you did it. Which is why, in this instance, the illegal and fugitive nature of filesharing could actually work in musicians' favour in this one instance.

Has anyone ever, by the way, emailed Nic Jones or any of the other artists, and asked if they'd burn them a CDR (for cash)?

I'd really like to hear, for instance, the "John & Sandra" album, which I know is on Argo and a whole different kettle of unreleased fish, was thinking about emailing Sandra Kerr and asking if she'd make me a copy...