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BS: Big Blue Used the BTWBS against Kasparov

JohnInKansas 01 Oct 12 - 05:38 PM
gnu 01 Oct 12 - 07:14 PM
Bobert 01 Oct 12 - 07:40 PM
Little Hawk 02 Oct 12 - 11:21 AM
Jack the Sailor 02 Oct 12 - 01:23 PM
gnu 02 Oct 12 - 04:33 PM
JohnInKansas 03 Oct 12 - 12:26 AM
GUEST,Chongo Chimp 03 Oct 12 - 02:19 AM
gnu 03 Oct 12 - 02:44 PM
JohnInKansas 03 Oct 12 - 03:24 PM
gnu 03 Oct 12 - 03:49 PM
Jack the Sailor 03 Oct 12 - 04:03 PM
JohnInKansas 05 Oct 12 - 01:02 PM
gnu 06 Oct 12 - 08:23 AM
Jack the Sailor 06 Oct 12 - 08:25 AM
JohnInKansas 06 Oct 12 - 04:20 PM
gnu 06 Oct 12 - 04:52 PM
Jack the Sailor 06 Oct 12 - 05:58 PM
Jack the Sailor 06 Oct 12 - 05:59 PM
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Subject: BS: Big Blue Used the BTWBS against Kasparov
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 01 Oct 12 - 05:38 PM

A new book by one of the programmers who worked on the Big Blue Computer that unexpectedly beat Kasparov in 1997 has proposed that the BB win was in fact due to a "programming error."

Glitch may have helped supercomputer beat chess champ in historic match


Devin Coldewey
IBM

An instruction that told the computer to "pick a random move" when there was no good move to be made was supposed to have been removed prior to the match; but when Big Blue was cornered in an indefensible position it made a Rook move that "made no sense" to Kasparov, and may have led him to change tactics, resulting in a tie.

This author now claims that the move in fact made no sense to anyone, but may have led Kasparov to think he had "underestimated the opponent."

The move, however, is quite well known among players in the lower echelons of chess, and quite obviously mimics a well known strategy frequently used by politicians, as well as by sales persons and even a few corporate managers:

      IF YOU CAN'T BEAT 'EM

        BAFFLE THEM WITH BULLSHIT!


This "move" is so common that I'm actually a little hesitant to believe that it wasn't included intentionally.

John


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Subject: RE: BS: Big Blue Used the BTWBS against Kasparov
From: gnu
Date: 01 Oct 12 - 07:14 PM

That is hilarious! I am LOL!


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Subject: RE: BS: Big Blue Used the BTWBS against Kasparov
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Oct 12 - 07:40 PM

Chess is a mind game and apparently the bad move worked on Kasporov's mind... Great story...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Big Blue Used the BTWBS against Kasparov
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 11:21 AM

Kasparov should have responded by kicking over the chess set to baffle Big Blue...


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Subject: RE: BS: Big Blue Used the BTWBS against Kasparov
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 01:23 PM

Glitch may have helped supercomputer beat chess champ in historic match.

may have?

Unsalvageable position?

Yet it was salvaged by a "random" move?

"may have rattled Kasparov,"

A lot of speculation here about the thought patterens of a living person. Has anyone asked Mr. Kasparov? or would that get in the way of book sales.


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Subject: RE: BS: Big Blue Used the BTWBS against Kasparov
From: gnu
Date: 02 Oct 12 - 04:33 PM

Wiki... "The rules provided for the developers to modify the program between games, an opportunity they said they used to shore up weaknesses in the computer's play revealed during the course of the match. Kasparov requested printouts of the machine's log files but IBM refused, although the company later published the logs on the Internet."

So... Deep Blue did not defeat him in a fair match.


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Subject: RE: BS: Big Blue Used the BTWBS against Kasparov
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 03 Oct 12 - 12:26 AM

gnu

If Kasparov wasn't required to explain all of his moves up to the break, it would seem perfectly fair for the Big Blue log files to be withheld until after the match ended - - ???

It would be fairly likely that Kasparov went over his own performance up to that time, and Big Blue's performance was reviewed by his handlers. There's nothing in the rules requiring that one player's analysis must be given to the other player.

Or is there something unfair about both sides playing to the same rules?

John


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Subject: RE: BS: Big Blue Used the BTWBS against Kasparov
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 03 Oct 12 - 02:19 AM

A Chimp would've won that match. Either way. But the real question is, how would Arnold Schwarzenneger have done against Big Blue? Or against Kasparov?

- Chongo


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Subject: RE: BS: Big Blue Used the BTWBS against Kasparov
From: gnu
Date: 03 Oct 12 - 02:44 PM

Yeah, JiK. Ya gotta point... to an extent. MY point is that the human didn't have a big crew of people helping him... or did he? Do you know?


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Subject: RE: BS: Big Blue Used the BTWBS against Kasparov
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 03 Oct 12 - 03:24 PM

Reports from the time of the match probably named the experts who might have supported Kasparov, and it's been the usual practice for the players to hold "consultations" with advisors during breaks, if the player wants to ask them for advice.

Some articles at the time suggested that Kasparov was given significant information about the program before the match started, but I don't recall specific info on how much information might have been released.

So far as I know, there's no rule - or tradition - permitting exchanges between the opponents once the match starts, in most matches.

For a match of this kind, the opponents are often permitted to demand "special conditions" that are sometimes bizarre, so it would be necessary to review the whole history of the arrangements to know whether "comments from the opposition" were expected or prohibited. It's the rules stated and recorded before the match starts that govern until the match is over, and I don't have much information on that.

John


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Subject: RE: BS: Big Blue Used the BTWBS against Kasparov
From: gnu
Date: 03 Oct 12 - 03:49 PM

There it is.

I did not know that "... it's been the usual practice for the players to hold "consultations" with advisors during breaks, if the player wants to ask them for advice." That there is cheatin in my books.


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Subject: RE: BS: Big Blue Used the BTWBS against Kasparov
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Oct 12 - 04:03 PM

Not if both sides can do it. Then it is called coaching.


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Subject: RE: BS: Big Blue Used the BTWBS against Kasparov
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 05 Oct 12 - 01:02 PM

Arranging any "super event" must be a terrific stress on the managers of the event.

In one "hugely important chess match" one of the opponents demanded that the chess pieces must be changed, apparently because he didn't like the way one of the knights "smiled."

After the pieces were changed, he objected that the squares on the board were not the "right size" for the new pieces and it would distract him.

After the chess board was changed (with squares a little less than 1/8" larger, as I recall) he complained the the "grain" of the marble on some of the squares was "turned the wrong way" and the board was replaced again.

Once that opponent ran out of objections, the other opponent decided that he "would not have sufficient time to become used to all the changes" and demanded that the match be postponed for three months.

When they reconvened, they started talking about what the "rules of play" would be.

The original schedule had allowed about a year for "resolution of differences" before play was to begin. The match actually began about two years after the original date.

Fortunately I'm not a particular fan of chess, so I was quite able to withstand the terror of wondering whether the match would ever happen. I was told that it was extremely traumatic for some others.

John


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Subject: RE: BS: Big Blue Used the BTWBS against Kasparov
From: gnu
Date: 06 Oct 12 - 08:23 AM

That is a horror story!


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Subject: RE: BS: Big Blue Used the BTWBS against Kasparov
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Oct 12 - 08:25 AM

When the computers start having similar discussions then we will know they are our equals.


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Subject: RE: BS: Big Blue Used the BTWBS against Kasparov
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 06 Oct 12 - 04:20 PM

JtS -

The demonstration (or the claim that it was shown) that a computer can be programmed to act randomly when given a problem it can't find a unique solution for certainly demonstrates a closer approximation to human than has been shown in many other comparisons.

Obviously, based on that feature alone, Big Blue could now emulate quite a few politicians with sufficient fidelity to fool most members of Congress ....(?)

The real question is whether any members of Congress could pass a Turing test (i.e. should be mistaken for a human).

John


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Subject: RE: BS: Big Blue Used the BTWBS against Kasparov
From: gnu
Date: 06 Oct 12 - 04:52 PM

Astute postulate, JiK.


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Subject: RE: BS: Big Blue Used the BTWBS against Kasparov
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Oct 12 - 05:58 PM

Doing a Turing test.

Is it human or computer?

tester: How do you feel about the Deficit vs tax cuts?

Subject: What do the polls say?

Tester:

Subject: Then I am 63 percent for 35 against 2 percent undecided.

Tester: Fuck off Romney. You almost had me fooled on the personal questions.


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Subject: RE: BS: Big Blue Used the BTWBS against Kasparov
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Oct 12 - 05:59 PM

Doing a Turing test.

Is it human or computer?

tester: How do you feel about the Deficit vs tax cuts?

Subject: What do the polls say?

Tester: 63 percent for 35 against 2 percent undecided.

Subject: Then I am 63 percent for 35 against 2 percent undecided.

Tester: Fuck off Romney. You almost had me fooled on the personal questions.


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