Lyrics & Knowledge Personal Pages Record Shop Auction Links Radio & Media Kids Membership Help
The Mudcat Cafeetta

Post to this Thread - Sort Descending - Printer Friendly - Home


Need list of ASCAP artists, composers

Genie 12 Apr 13 - 02:05 AM
DebC 12 Apr 13 - 10:10 AM
Genie 12 Apr 13 - 10:42 AM
Jeri 12 Apr 13 - 10:53 AM
katlaughing 12 Apr 13 - 11:00 AM
Genie 12 Apr 13 - 01:32 PM
Jeri 12 Apr 13 - 01:42 PM
GUEST,Stim 12 Apr 13 - 02:06 PM
Joe Offer 12 Apr 13 - 02:39 PM
Genie 12 Apr 13 - 03:00 PM
GUEST,Stim 12 Apr 13 - 05:32 PM
Joe Offer 12 Apr 13 - 09:15 PM
Genie 13 Apr 13 - 03:32 PM
Genie 13 Apr 13 - 03:34 PM
Sandy Mc Lean 13 Apr 13 - 03:56 PM
GUEST,Larry Saidman 13 Apr 13 - 04:15 PM
Maryrrf 14 Apr 13 - 11:25 PM
michaelr 15 Apr 13 - 12:51 AM
GUEST,Guest: Texas Guest 15 Apr 13 - 12:52 AM
Maryrrf 15 Apr 13 - 10:26 AM
Sandy Mc Lean 15 Apr 13 - 09:36 PM
Share Thread
more
Lyrics & Knowledge Search [Advanced]
DT  Forum
Sort (Forum) by:relevance date
DT Lyrics:




Subject: Need list of ASCAP artists, composers
From: Genie
Date: 12 Apr 13 - 02:05 AM

I've found several threads about how ASCAP works (and BMI) and discussing the various issues therewith, but I am still trying to find a list of ASCAP-covered performers, songwriters, etc.
This has to do with some local bars where I and others may be performing covers of various songs. We've been told "No ASCAP" - because some of these venues are too small and/or new to be able to afford the annual ASCAP fee (which seldom trickles down to any of the lesser-known ASCAP musicians)   I'd like to be able to find out what songs/artists/composers are not members of ASCAP so I and others can know if it's OK to perform covers of various songs.

We are not trying to deny songwriters any royalties due them for singing their songs (though we may or may not be paid anything for doing so), but we'd like to know what is "allowable" and what is not, and if anyone is going to be paid royalties for our singing a song, it should be the songwriter (or arranger), not some big conglomerate that will not compensate that person.   Mainly, we are seeking to set up an open mic and/or jam session without the bar owner being slapped with a fine for unauthorized use of ASCAP protected music.

Anyone know where I can find a comprehensive list of ASCAP musicians/songwriters?

I've tried googling, but I get all sorts of tangentially related websites instead of what I need.

Genie


PS
It would also be good to find a list of BMI songwriters too.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Need list of ASCAP artists, composers
From: DebC
Date: 12 Apr 13 - 10:10 AM

Hoo boy. First off, a list of ASCAP members will probably number in the tens of thousands. Sounds like a task I would not want to embark upon, tho YMMV. Also, many songwriters and composers belong to all three organisations, ASCAP, BMI and SESAC. Genie, with your original question you are pretty much looking for the needle in the haystack.

The PRO/venue issue has been discussed at length for the last 30 years and I am sure there are some discussions here on the 'Cat as well. I know it's been discussed in the many USA folk music lists that I subscribe to.

If you want more information on the issue, do a Google and you will find more than enough discussion on the net. You can start with a list called Folkvenu and search the archives.

Good luck with your open mic, Genie.

Deb Cowan


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Need list of ASCAP artists, composers
From: Genie
Date: 12 Apr 13 - 10:42 AM

What I'm trying to find is an searchable database.   The internet itself is a huge 'haystack' - way more than tens of thousands of items, but you can find some things pretty easily. If ASCAP has such a database for its songs/songwriters/artists, it should not be that hard to find out if certain songs or artists or songwriters are listed there.

I don't need the discussion of the venue issue. I'm just trying to find out if certain songs are off-limits for a jam session or open mic for a small bar that can't afford to pay ASCAP's blanket fee just yet.

Google/Bing, etc., was not much help. Way too many sites listed, most of which were only tangentially related to my question.   I was not seeking a general discussion of ASCAP, just a database.   

My question is, "Is there such a searchable database for ASCAP?"

And it is specifically ASCAP that is the thorn in the flesh of this new local bar that's trying to have live music every night (including band performers, jams, open mics).

Knowing that a song is "trad." or was composed before 1920 doesn't help a lot either, because copyrights have been taken out on a lot of those songs (or arrangements of them) too.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Need list of ASCAP artists, composers
From: Jeri
Date: 12 Apr 13 - 10:53 AM

http://www.ascap.com/
Search box is in the upper right hand side.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Need list of ASCAP artists, composers
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Apr 13 - 11:00 AM

for just one old song from a 78, i called the publisher and was seriouly treated, but told i could noy use it for free for a non-profit.

i remember, yrs ago, someone posated a link to library of congress which had data pages listed of anyone who'd gone through the loc process. also years, ago, he was a member for free.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Need list of ASCAP artists, composers
From: Genie
Date: 12 Apr 13 - 01:32 PM

Thanks, Jeri.

I had already tried using that search box, but when I typed in a name, e.g., Hank Williams, I got listings of all sorts of articles that mentioned Hank Williams.
Now I've tried clicking on the ACE/Repertory box. In that search box, I clicked on "Writers" and typed in "Hank Williams" and got listings for 3 other people but not him. Surely that doesn't mean the songs Hank wrote are not ASCAP protected, does it?

Here's what the site says about the ACE database:
"What is ACE?
ACE is a searchable database that contains information on compositions in the ASCAP repertory that have appeared in ASCAP's domestic performance surveys, including foreign compositions licensed by ASCAP for public performance in the United States, as well as most works registered with ASCAP since January 1991, whether surveyed or unsurveyed. ACE may also be used to determine whether a particular composer, songwriter or music publisher is a member of ASCAP.


Please note the following with respect to Writer information:
The ACE Database contains the names of ASCAP writer members and the names of their co-writers who are either affiliated with other performing rights organizations, or not affiliated with any other organization.
ASCAP writer members' names may be accessed directly on ACE by searching under the writers' names. The names of writers affiliated with other U.S. performing rights organizations cannot be accessed directly using ACE and searching under those writers' names.
When you click on the title of a song, the names of ASCAP writers, and writers affiliated with foreign performing rights organizations whose works are licensed through ASCAP for performances in the United States, appear with a "magnifying glass" after their names; the names of co-writers affiliated with other U.S. performing rights organizations, or not affiliated with any other organization, have no "magnifying glass" after their names.
As noted above, the ACE Database contains the titles of works written and published by members and affiliates of foreign performing rights organizations and licensed by ASCAP for performances in the United States under agreements between ASCAP and more than 90 foreign societies. The names of the writers of works with such titles also appear with a "magnifying glass" after their names.
Occasionally, members resign from ASCAP and ASCAP continues to license performances of the resigned members' works. These resigned members' works will be listed in the ACE Database but the resigned members' names will not have a "magnifying glass" after their names."

It's a help, but it's not really clear.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Need list of ASCAP artists, composers
From: Jeri
Date: 12 Apr 13 - 01:42 PM

The problem may be that you're looking for artists, but it's the songs that are registered. Song titles work in the search box.

Some of a composers songs may be registered with ASCAP, and some elsewhere, and some not at all.

The meaning of "ACE" is given in the search box. Academy of Composers and something, maybe.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Need list of ASCAP artists, composers
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 12 Apr 13 - 02:06 PM

Hank Williams' songs were published by Acuff-Rose, which is affiliated with BMI. The search engine at BMI is a little better than the ASCAP one, because it lists the affiliation for artists, even when it isn't BMI. This site might be more helpful though, because it lists most of the great songwriters, with bios, affiliations, and all of their works. It lists songwriters and composers who are in the public domain, as well Songwriter's Hall of Fame


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Need list of ASCAP artists, composers
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 Apr 13 - 02:39 PM

I think you can figure that anything on a major label is copyright-limited, other than traditional stuff.

It sounds daunting to sort through all that, but then again maybe not. Most of us have repertoires of no more than a few hundred songs, and we pretty-much know the stories behind the songs. For the songs we don't know backgrounds for, it's not unreasonable to search the ASCAP, BMI, and Harry Fox Agency (Songfile.com) databases. Better that, than to try to find a comprehensive list of artists and composers.

-Joe-


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Need list of ASCAP songwriters, songs
From: Genie
Date: 12 Apr 13 - 03:00 PM

Joe, the issue isn't whether something is copyright protected, as such. ASCAP is just especially pit-bull-ish in policing things like unpaid jam sessions and open mics.   

But even with "traditional" songs, it's not safe to assume someone hasn't claimed copyright on some particular "arrangement."

This is about not wanting the pub owner to get zapped with a fine from ASCAP if someone does a song that's somewhere listed with them.

And, no, I'm not looking for performers' listings (unless someone's covering their particular unique version of a song). I'm looking to see which songwriters and songs are listed.

The ACE database is helpful but it doesn't answer all my questions, partly because of duplicate names (e.g., Jimmie Rodgers) or titles (e.g., "Cupid").

Thing is, even if I know the background of a song and know it was composed well before 1922, that doesn't guarantee there's no current copyright on it or that it's not registered with ASCAP.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Need list of ASCAP artists, composers
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 12 Apr 13 - 05:32 PM

If the pub owner doesn't want to get zapped with a fine from ASCAP, the pub owner should pay the blanket licensing fee. You shouldn't be saddled with the considerable effort and responsibility of researching the performance rights on all of your material to satisfy the needs of the pub owner, particularly if it is for a jam session or open mike where you will not be payed (but which will generate revenue for the pub owner).

Furthermore, it isn't very wise of the pub owner to take a chance that you, or another, perhaps less conscientious performer, has gotten the proper performing rights information.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Need list of ASCAP artists, composers
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 Apr 13 - 09:15 PM

Pre-1922 compositions don't have valid copyrights or valid ASCAP registrations. If you're going to worry about them, then you'd better pay the ASCAP fee. Go with Stim, and pay the people for what they don't deserve to be paid. People have been doing that with Carter Family songs for generations.

-Joe-


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Need list of ASCAP artists, composers
From: Genie
Date: 13 Apr 13 - 03:32 PM

Stim, I'm sure the pub owner will pay the ASCAP licensing fee as soon as she gets the pub going strongly enough. It's a very new venue for live music (having been a different kind of bar for several decades before she bought it), and things like karaoke, open mics, song circles, etc., don't bring in much more business - so far - than she'd have with just the juke box and the other attractions (TV, video games, free pool tables, and a great selection of potables and food at reasonable prices).   The only nights that really pack 'em in, so far, are the ones where she gets some really good bands (with rock, jazz, rockabilly, etc.)
Some of us would like to get an actual jam (fairly unstructured) and/or open mic going, and it probably will in time bring in a lot of business, but we've been asked not to do ASCAP songs (though some of the bands obviously ignore that). I'd just like to avoid the ASCAP songs if I have alternatives that are either PD or at least with BMI or SESAC.

Joe, you're right about ASCAP not paying the songwriters what they deserve to be paid. That's what irks me.    I could get up there and do Townes Van Zandt or Jimmie Rodgers or Greg Brown or Carter Family songs and I doubt seriously that any of those artists (or their heirs) would see a penny from ASCAP for it.

I had thought that pre-1922 songs were PD, but it's obviously not always the case.   "Happy Birthday," for instance, goes back before then, I'm pretty sure, but it's still under copyright.   A lot of songs written before 1922 have had their copyrights renewed since then.   

I'm interested in the ASCAP info not just for this venue but for general reference (e.g., singing in other public establishments).


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Need list of ASCAP artists, composers
From: Genie
Date: 13 Apr 13 - 03:34 PM

BTW, I'm told that a lot of owners of small pubs and coffeehouses find the ASCAP blanket licensing fee too high (to low ROI) and just abandon live music altogether.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Need list of ASCAP artists, composers
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 13 Apr 13 - 03:56 PM

If a song is traditional why not just tell ASCAP to "go forth and multiply"! Just because someone may have the audacity to put a copyright mark on a traditional song it ain't worth shit! If ASCAP claims that you are performing a copyright arrangement surely the burden of proof lies with them. How does ASCAP have the right to fine anyone? Are they a court of law?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Need list of ASCAP artists, composers
From: GUEST,Larry Saidman
Date: 13 Apr 13 - 04:15 PM

I'd sure be interested in hearing a response to Sandy McLean's comment. It does seem to me that by complying with this 'protection racket' of ASCP, BMI, SOCAN, etc. regarding arrangements of traditional material, we are only encouraging them.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Need list of ASCAP artists, composers
From: Maryrrf
Date: 14 Apr 13 - 11:25 PM

Here's an article about how BMI and ASCAP has targeted farmers markets and house concerts


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Need list of ASCAP artists, composers
From: michaelr
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 12:51 AM

Scary, Mary. Thanks for the link.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Need list of ASCAP artists, composers
From: GUEST,Guest: Texas Guest
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 12:52 AM

Genie - I don't have the time to get into it, but, the venue owner is either pulling your chain or doesn't really know how the ASCAP/BMI thing works. It takes years for either of those organizations to be able to bring a suit to court; and, though it probably has been done, I know of no situation where ASCAP/BMI has won in a fight with a small bar/pub venue - it's ultimately not worth their time. They are much more of a pest and a nusiance than a terror. Cheers.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Need list of ASCAP artists, composers
From: Maryrrf
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 10:26 AM

I'm not so sure that what Texas guest says is accurate. I've heard of instances where ASCAP and BMI have dogged small venues mercilessly - it seems their tactic is to "make an example" of venues who dig in their heels. And they do have the legal resources available to make things difficult, if they choose.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Need list of ASCAP artists, composers
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 15 Apr 13 - 09:36 PM

Does anyone know if ASCAP or BMI ever won a suit because someone used a traditional song that they claim is under an "arrangement" copyright? Surely they would face a difficult burden of proof! Bombast and bully tactics aside I feel an authour of a work deserves to be compensated, but if ASCAP and BMI do not ensure that is where revenue collected flows, they are as corrupt as the big music publishers! If enough people stand up and tell them to "FUCK OFF" the bully tactics will stop!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate
  Share Thread:
More...

Reply to Thread
Subject:  Help
From:
Preview   Automatic Linebreaks   Make a link ("blue clicky")


Mudcat time: 20 October 4:06 AM EDT

[ Home ]

All original material is copyright © 1998 by the Mudcat Café Music Foundation, Inc. All photos, music, images, etc. are copyright © by their rightful owners. Every effort is taken to attribute appropriate copyright to images, content, music, etc. We are not a copyright resource.