Is Making Your Own CD Becoming Too Easy?

Subject: Is Making Your Own CD Becoming Too Easy?
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 29 Nov 99 - 09:06 AM

Since it has become very easy to make your own CD's at home, I was wondering how this affects the music industry.
Does it generated a flood of CDs making it difficult to distinguish and find the 'hidden gems'?
Or is this a good thing, offering so many more artist an opportunity to have their music heard.

Subject: RE: Is Making Your Own CD Becoming Too Easy?
From: Áine
Date: 29 Nov 99 - 10:19 AM

Dear BB (f/k/a LN),

What a great idea for a thread! My husband and I were having this discussion a few weeks ago, after I had spent an afternoon surfing the MP3.com site and sampling several songs in a particular genre. Being that we have begun work on our own home-made CD, I was interested in what else was being produced and put out there on the ethernet.

The two of us decided that this phenomenon was a wonderful new tool for artists to express themselves freely, without the bug-a-boos of record company executives and their marketing cohorts looming over their heads. It also provides an avenue for the audience to communicate with the artist more freely about how they feel about the music.

For musicians like my husband and myself, who have travelled the 'road' and now find ourselves more family-focused, the home-made CD gives us the capability to still have fun with our music, to share it with others, and to travel the roads of imagination and creativity at our own pace and in our own time.

As to your question regarding the 'hidden gems,' I believe in 'the more the merrier' principle. I don't think that there can ever be too much music!

-- Áine

Subject: RE: Is Making Your Own CD Becoming Too Easy?
From: Alan of Australia
Date: 29 Nov 99 - 10:58 AM

G'day,
I have mixed feelings about this. You should include MP3 recordings in this discussion only MUCH more so. It's great that we can make recordings for an affordable outlay, but I've heard some talented people produce sub-standard recordings simply through lack of recording skill. Spend the time, listen carefully, cool off & listen again next week, pay attention to detail. Use effects such as reverb & compression, but SPARINGLY. The professional recording studios will always have the edge over home studios, but these days a well made home recording can give them a run for their money. If you work at it you will learn a lot fast. You'll often find yourself listening to something you did a few months before & realizing you could do a much better job now.

The new technology might have its downside but if you don't take advantage of it you could miss out.

On the subject of MP3 it's officially better than sex. It has displaced sex as the word most entered into search engines. Recording companies are worried big time. It will force them to introduce new media to replace CDs earlier than they would have otherwise. e.g. DVDs in 24bit, 96kHz format, possibly with video clips, extended "sleeve notes" etc., as well as secure compression formats to compete with MP3. This would be true even without distribution of illegal MP3 files.

Be prepared to change the way you buy & listen to your music. We live in "interesting times".

Cheers,
Alan

Subject: RE: Is Making Your Own CD Becoming Too Easy?
From: Midchuck
Date: 29 Nov 99 - 11:38 AM

The question appears (and I apologize if I'm reading it wrong) to contain the assumption that the average quality of recorded music was better when you couldn't put out a record unless you had a record company contract. The assumption follows from that, that record company executives are better judges of good music than you or I or my cat. So buy a bunch of current major-label issues at random, listen to them, and tell me if you wish to argue for or against that last assumption.

That small-label and privately produced recordings follow Sturgeon's Law, is undisputed. But I would argue that all recorded music does, so nothing is changed.

Subject: RE: Is Making Your Own CD Becoming Too Easy?
From: lamarca
Date: 29 Nov 99 - 11:40 AM

I think the relative ease of making a recording IS changing the quality of the output. We're seeing an interesting evolution here. In the early days of recording in the 20's and 30's, A&R men would herd a group or individuals into a hotel room, have them play a couple songs right off into their recording equipment, and release the material on 78 rpm records. LOTS of different kinds of music became available to the public, but the quality of the recording and/or performances were highly variable.

As recording got more sophisticated, the use of centralized recording studios became more prevalent. Fewer artists got the chance to make recordings to put on the market, but those that did usually came to the studio with their material better prepared. In recent years, only the most "marketable" performers get studio contracts; for folks doing interesting but relatively unknown types of music (like folk), it meant scraping and saving enough money to rent studio time, being REALLY careful about what you decided to record, and having your material well prepared before you went into a studio so as not to waste time (and money) on re-takes, etc.

Now that it's easy to make your own CD we're back to a situation like the 20's, with one major difference. The artist(s) themselves decide what's going to go on the recording, rather than an outside judge. When the recording process was filtered through the record company's representative, there was at least his idea of "quality control" for what went out. Now the artists' own evaluation of their own performances and material are the only determinant, and we all know how hard it is to be critical of our own work sometimes. I think that it's resulted in a lot more mediocre (if not downright BAD) material being released for sale.

Because of the relatively high cost of a CD vs. an LP, I'm a lot less likely to be "experimental" in what I buy. When I was buying LPs, I would frequently look at a track list on the back, say "Those sound like neat songs" and buy an LP by an artist I'd never heard. I got some losers, but most were pretty good. I can't afford to do that with CDs, which limits me to music by people I know or I've heard somewhere - at festivals, in concert, or on that increasingly endangered species, folk radio.

I just wish that more artists would spend a bit more time polishing their work, getting critical feedback from their fellow musicians and just plain rehearsing and listening to their own material before deciding to release a CD...

Subject: RE: Is Making Your Own CD Becoming Too Easy?
From: Paul G.
Date: 29 Nov 99 - 11:44 AM

Like Alan, I have mixed feelings on the subject. The affordability of it all has certainly thrown alot of "junk" (IMHO) out on the streets. This makes for a harder time of discovering the "gems" or even the gems in the rough. What the cheap technology can't give you though, is the ear and hands of a "good" engineer to properly mix and master your work. I know this through personal experience...I know what I like in terms of my own recorded sound, but I don't have the technical skills to achieve it, so I pay a trusted colleage to do the production work. A personal bias of mine is also the less than satisfactory output generated by the "run a medioche microphone through some digital effects then into your PC loaded with a $300 do-it-youself sound management/CD burner program". I've done demos that way, but would never use it for a serious project. I know the money arguement, but, at least in my case, I put the recording off until I put enough money away to finance it the way I wanted it done...

In a nutshell, I think the cheap CD syndrome has enabled too many Jewel wannabe's to dilute the value of meaningful independent projects.

pg

Subject: RE: Is Making Your Own CD Becoming Too Easy?
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 29 Nov 99 - 12:09 PM

Since I am working on an a project that(if I ever get enough time to finish anything) will put independently written and (inexpensively) produced music on the web, I figured I ought to say something--

I don't think that home recording is going to supplant the mass market, which will always be controlled by recording companies and music publishers, and will be always be dominated by artists, producers, and promoters who will try to do whatever it takes to sell a platinum CD and tour all the arenas in the World--

This isn't necessarily bad--many wonderful songs have been written, and many wonderful recordings have been made this way, and a lot of ethnic and folk music has been captured this way, as well(albeit with the misguided notion that it is going to make someone other than the artist a lot of money)

The thing is that the mass marketing of music, controlled, as it has been, by a relatively small group of people, who also control the distribution and recording processes, has effectively restricted the recorded music that is available, as well as the music that is heard--Most people only have the opportunity to hear either to music that is "Popular", or that someone wants to make "Popular"--

The convivial singing that once was a part of all social and family events has disappeared, as has the parlor concert, dance bands have, by enlarge, disappeared--there is no drunken harmonizing in saloons and barrooms. as there once was--all of this has been overshadowed by recorded, mass marketed music--

Home recording technology, and inexpensive reproduction technology isn't going to bump the Sony's and Warner Atlantic's out of our collective lives. However, because it allows the personal musician, writer, and performer access to the CD player, the Car Stereo, and the Walkman that are now the center stage for home entertainment--it does give us a chance to get back some of our "Market Share"--

Subject: RE: Is Making Your Own CD Becoming Too Easy?
From: Jack (who is called jack)
Date: 29 Nov 99 - 12:13 PM

The funny thing about the information age is that on one hand it has shrunk the distances between like people separated by distance, but it has increased the virtual distance between people who live close together. Why interact with nearby people that you have less in common with when you can interact electronically with those who are more like you? Thats the great seductive lure of all this technology isn't it?--the ability to micro-tailor our private social and cultural environment. But I think in the end something is lost, because the more we can cater to our own private tastes, the less shared experience we have as a large group, and as collective experience shrinks so do the things we have to talk about. To take a simple though perhaps somewhat trivial example, when I was growing up, before cable and before home video tape machines and the explosion of cable TV, The Wizard of Oz was broadcast once a year, and when it was, it was 'An EVENT'. There would be anticipation, you'd talk about it with your freinds, you'd have to decide whether you wanted to watch it, because if you missed it you had to wait another year. Now you can watch it any time you want, and while its still a great film, its not as much fun as it was when choice and access was limited, and the experince was communal. I've bought about four 'grown-up' movies on VHS, and the funny thing is that the fact that I can watch them whenever I want has made me less interested in watching them, and so I never do. I've bought lots of children's video's for my son and when he was younger he would have a particular favorite that he'd ask to watch all the time. Now though, he won't watch them by himself (unless he's sick), he'll only watch them if there's somebody to watch it with. He doesn't want the experience itself, he wants the shared experience. The same with books and stories, he wants to read to the class, or have a story read to him. He doesn't just want the story, he wants to be able to look at me and laugh when something funny happens, or to bolt upright from his pillow and make that open-mouthed eye contact when the story takes a suprising turn, then run to the living room yelling 'Mom, Mom!, guess what happened in Harry Potter!'

For all their marketing towards self-indulgence, the new technologies will stand or fall on their ability to bring us together on a large scale.

Subject: RE: Is Making Your Own CD Becoming Too Easy?
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 29 Nov 99 - 12:30 PM

Midchuck, the assumption you posted was not my intention. I just wanted to generate a conversation on this topic.
The posting are very interesting and informative

Subject: RE: Is Making Your Own CD Becoming Too Easy?
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 29 Nov 99 - 12:42 PM

Our three year old demands to see "The Wixard of Oz" at least once a day--my wife has developed and extensive list of hitherto unexplained errors and inconsistancies in the story line, while I reach for ever deeper levels of interpretation (Glinda as "mentor", The Wicked Witch's compulsive risk taking behavior), since, as Jack points out, for children, it must be a shared experience to be meaningful.

The amazing multiplicity of choices that technology allows us does reduce shared experience, and in that way, it also reduces our sense of community--

The remote communication lacks the sort of warmth that one one one, face to face, communication provides--and, all though it broadens the field of possible contacts, it limits them, as well--

As a performer who is unable to find much interest in my work locally, I may develop a thousand rabid devotees, via the net--the only thing is that, with two here and three there, I wouldn't ever be able to experience the thrill of walking out onto a stage and playing for them--

Subject: RE: Is Making Your Own CD Becoming Too Easy?
From: Scotsbard
Date: 29 Nov 99 - 01:42 PM

There seems to be more involved than just CDs, because parts of this discussion include the ease and expenses of modern digital recording. Reasonably priced mixing equipment costs perhaps a fifth of what it did only a couple of decades ago, regardless of how well people know how to use it. From that perspective, I think definitely the more the merrier, if only because it encourages creativity.

Producing a single analog LP and pressing copies required (and still does) a substantial capital outlay, but audio tapes (including reel-to-reel, casette, and dare I say it ... 8-track) has always been the copyrighters and promoter/distributor's nightmare because they are so easily duplicated. From what I've read about dealings between the major recording labels and the major electronics companies, prices and availability of CD recording equipment were deliberately tightened to prevent low cost copying of CD's, but eventually some of the struggling smaller companies broke ranks and began selling at reasonable costs. From that perspective, the previously artificial high cost of making CDs for low volume users was caused by the copyright battles among the musical stars and corporate giants.

With all that said, based on what I've heard on small label or self produced CD's recently, some artists are doing wonderful work, and some others could be a trifle more selective. I know of several groups that perform well but their recordings don't seem as interesting. The number of other factors involved, not the least of which may be this MP3 format, certainly complicates all the issues, but at least we're getting to hear it without some record company mogul's opinion as well.

~S~

Subject: RE: Is Making Your Own CD Becoming Too Easy?
From: j0_77
Date: 29 Nov 99 - 03:08 PM

If you have a fast server you can make lots of dough :0) but also need a product that surfers want. You don't need a CD maker. Why bother? MP3 players are on the street already hard media like CD and Tape is kinda prehistoric!

Subject: RE: Is Making Your Own CD Becoming Too Easy?
From: Marc
Date: 29 Nov 99 - 04:21 PM

Ok, here's my question. Say I invest the money in studio time and engineering. I end up with a well produced digital product. If I take that product to a company to be packaged into saleable cds, I have to get 100, 500,1000 or whatever. I only sell a few at a time at gigs. Is the home cd from the studio tape the same quality as the commercial product?

Marc

Subject: RE: Is Making Your Own CD Becoming Too Easy?
From: Frank Hamilton
Date: 29 Nov 99 - 04:56 PM

I think that the more things change they stay the same. The quality of music doesn't vary with the technology. In other days, there were recordings that cost $75,000 and upward that have been found in cut-out bins. The trend aspect has always been there.

I like being able to produce my own CD's because I can feel as though I'm contributing something that I feel is worthwhile, rather than having that dictated to me by a nebulous market force.

As to the elements of high gloss production, it entirely depends upon what is being produced. I enjoy hearing folk music on the old Asch-Stinson and Folkways recordings that in some cases sound like they were recorded in a cow shed. But the quality of performance with a voice and guitar singing the folk songs I love were enough without having to signal-process everything so that it sounds like the artist is recording in a concert hall or for the radio.

I'll take a good performance of a song over a high-gloss production with all the processing gadgets, great mics, state-of-the-art technology. To me, "It son't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing!"

Frank

Subject: RE: Is Making Your Own CD Becoming Too Easy?
From: MMario
Date: 29 Nov 99 - 09:49 PM

Marc - I am told that if you have a CD master produced from studio tapes, and reproduce it on a reasonably good qaulity home cd burner(translation - one that meets industry standards, not a bargain basement special) you cannot tell it from one reproduced commercially. Except of course, you won't have the artwork on the CD itself unless you pay to have your blanks produced with it.

MMario

Subject: RE: Is Making Your Own CD Becoming Too Easy?
From: GuitarPicker
Date: 30 Nov 99 - 08:26 PM

Who cares if it's easy...the hard part is getting it heard and/or sold. I've got 400 of my own CDs which I might have to use for skeet shooting (they're also great for shimming up the leg of a wobbly table). If anyone interested in a well-reviewed CD that can be used in a multiple of unique ways, send a message to [e-mail] and you'll qualify for our special internet price of $13 for a copy of "Fine Spun Threads" by Eric and Beth Carlson. It's folk music, people seem to like it (it's been on the radio a few times)and it can be yours to help determine the answer to "is making your own CD becoming too easy?". We also can offer copies of The Fire House String Band's "Wooden Road". We play on that as well, plus they're just darn good. But I digress... -peace

Subject: RE: Is Making Your Own CD Becoming Too Easy?
From: Guy Wolff
Date: 30 Nov 99 - 09:17 PM

Hi,this is a great Thead..I think finding the magic of making something good is always its own end...Making good music is not always easy so making a cd is even harder...I trust the audience to either buy somthing from its own merit or pass it by..The fact that there is more options for creating does not change the end result as far as I can see...But having these new places to practice has some good side effects..I would break up recording into a few catagories 1} the easy home studios that let people get the chance to hear themselves[Alittle like playing into a home cassett 20 years ago} and practice for 2} the new digital studios that one can pull together for $40,000.00...At this level one gets to start dealing with some interesting "Production"descitions like what kind of flavering you want to add with diferent mike configurations...{Engineers talk about mikes the way we drool over Martins and Gibsons}.. I have done two "Vanity Press" cds at this level and am so happy to have had to practice at compressing music into the little box..finaly3} With years of playing out and alot of hard work one gets enough of an audiance to be heard... Are any of these levels without merit? I think the size of the audiance will naturaly follow the quality of the music...Water finds its own level and along the way we all get to learn...As long as there is good music people will go find it and pass by what does not interest them. Being passed by does'nt mean that it isint fun recording it just means it's time for some more time in the studio<<<>>>>Ya hoo Sorry long winded but with warm wishes to all..All the best Guy

Subject: RE: Is Making Your Own CD Becoming Too Easy?
From: Roger in Baltimore
Date: 30 Nov 99 - 09:18 PM

What is Sturgeon's law mentioned a few posts back?

Roger in Baltimore

Subject: RE: Is Making Your Own CD Becoming Too Easy?
From: Guy Wolff
Date: 30 Nov 99 - 09:32 PM

Mark.. Yes they are very close but Ive heard that home burnt cd's are a bit softer and so dont hold up as well.. {Maybe not an issue}.Also most post prodution manufacturers do compress the final work just a tweek{But warning dont let them over mellow your work with compression.. Setting up the art work can be really fun..With the help of a freind and an apple computer we took a picture a scanner and some fun and had the inserts done in an hour...I sent them onto my manufacturer but you could make them up your self...

Subject: RE: Is Making Your Own CD Becoming Too Easy?
From:
Date: 30 Nov 99 - 09:34 PM

"What is Sturgeon's law mentioned a few posts back?

Roger in Baltimore"

Theodore Sturgeon, IMO one of the best writers of this century - I expect he'll be "discovered" by the literati in another generation - I guess nobody knew of Melville when he was alive - wrote pretty much all Sci-Fi and fantasy. When a friend found out what he did for his living, he was upset, and exclaimed "But 90 per cent of that stuff is s***!"

Sturgeon replied, "90 per cent of _everything_ is s***." This statement has since been raised to the level of a basic law of nature, like Murphy's.

Seems pretty well self-evident that he was right. There are some exceptions. Martin guitars - only the '70s models and the new "X" series qualify as s***, and that can't be more than 20%. Songs by sensitive young singer-songwriters - it's more like 98.5%

But most things prove the rule IMO (no "H" - sorry).

Subject: RE: Is Making Your Own CD Becoming Too Easy?
From: Midchuck
Date: 30 Nov 99 - 09:36 PM

"What is Sturgeon's law mentioned a few posts back?

Roger in Baltimore"

Theodore Sturgeon, IMO one of the best writers of this century - I expect he'll be "discovered" by the literati in another generation - I guess nobody knew of Melville when he was alive - wrote pretty much all Sci-Fi and fantasy. When a friend found out what he did for his living, he was upset, and exclaimed "But 90 per cent of that stuff is s***!"

Sturgeon replied, "90 per cent of _everything_ is s***." This statement has since been raised to the level of a basic law of nature, like Murphy's.

Seems pretty well self-evident that he was right. There are some exceptions. Martin guitars - only the '70s models and the new "X" series qualify as s***, and that can't be more than 20%. Songs by sensitive young singer-songwriters - it's more like 98.5%

But most things prove the rule IMO (no "H" - sorry).

Subject: RE: Is Making Your Own CD Becoming Too Easy?
From: Willie-O
Date: 30 Nov 99 - 09:42 PM

Hey--my '73 O-18 may not be very collectible, but it ain't shit.

Bill
Just A Bit Miffed

Subject: RE: Is Making Your Own CD Becoming Too Easy?
From: _gargoyle
Date: 30 Nov 99 - 10:02 PM

"difficult to distinguish and find the 'hidden gems'?"

Probably, 2/3rds of my CD and LP record collection - (both are small, under 100 each)are from labels that never made it to a "major distributor."

Perhaps, I only pick "loosers." However, they are MY PICKS...and they are seldom part of a "commercial marketing" plan. To me they are the 'hidden gems."

It appears, you listen to the "PostToastees" and "Cheerios"....of the music world and would "be deprived," without their commercial marketing and "life-value-added commercials" so neatly packaged by the corporate world.

If, perchance, you prefer the TRUELY "hidden gems" found in the more esoteric "real/non-rolled oats" and "plain/brown rice" "small backwater venues" of the net....

...............Then......the modern technology is BOTH the consumer's and small producer's "dream come true."

Enjoy it while you can....corporate business is desperatly trying to "Patch Their Leaking Boat."

Subject: RE: Is Making Your Own CD Becoming Too Easy?
From: Terry Allan Hall
Date: 30 Nov 99 - 10:07 PM

It levels the playing field (if you will)...that can only be a good thing!

If the music has merit, folks'll find it!

Subject: RE: Is Making Your Own CD Becoming Too Easy?
From: Midchuck
Date: 30 Nov 99 - 10:12 PM

"Hey--my '73 O-18 may not be very collectible, but it ain't shit.

Bill Just A Bit Miffed"

Don't be miffed - be tickled pink that you lucked out.

Most experts I've read stuff by agree that the quality was definitely off, on the average, in the 70s and early 80s. I understand a lot of the Martins from those years have the bridge saddle just a little bit off, and don't intonate properly. I formerly had a '71 or '2 D-18 which sounded nice, but had no power at all.

I didn't mean to say that every Martin from those years was you-know-what; just that Martin conformed more closely to Sturgeon's Law in that period than before or since.

Subject: RE: Is Making Your Own CD Becoming Too Easy?
From: Guy Wolff
Date: 01 Dec 99 - 12:20 PM

Terry allen Hall said what I wanted to say in one twentyith the words ...I'm impressed<<>>> The bit about Theo Sturgean is fun his son was a class mate of mine in high school ,so I will copy and paiste the above for him I"m shore he will be pleased to read what was said ...I'm sorry He wont know who said it but thats OK ...Alll the best Guy

Subject: RE: Is Making Your Own CD Becoming Too Easy?
From: Guy Wolff
Date: 01 Dec 99 - 12:26 PM

Sorry midchuck I found the double with your name and have sent it onto Robin....Cheers guy

Subject: RE: Is Making Your Own CD Becoming Too Easy?
From: Bert
Date: 01 Dec 99 - 12:27 PM

I think it's great and I hope it's going improve music the same way that micro breweries improved beer.

Subject: RE: Is Making Your Own CD Becoming Too Easy?
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 02 Dec 99 - 01:05 PM

I think the lesson we have learned here is, from the music lover's point of view, those hidden gems from the backwater of the internet may be great, but from musician's point of view, it isn't that much fun to have created a "hidden gem"

The real problem is that, for an album (CD, record, whatever) to be successful, it not only has to be well conceived, well played, and well recorded, it has to be well marketed.

The reason that record companies and cigar-chomping managers, and those sleazy record promoters exist at all is because creating wonderful music is a full time endeavor, and has nothing whatsoever in common with the job of selling it--

The ability to create and the ability to promote rarely come packaged together--which is probably why the best music gets mediocre promotion and the best promotion is for mediocre music--

Subject: RE: Is Making Your Own CD Becoming Too Easy?
From: Harvey Gerst
Date: 07 Dec 99 - 06:13 PM

Well, packaging and merchandising the CD is a big part of it. I produced Frank Hamilton's "Long Lonesome Home" CD and I think we did a great job on the packaging. But even with quotes on the back from Pete Seeger, Tom Paxton, Theo Bikel, Roger McGuinn, Odetta, and many others, I'm still having a tough time breaking into the major record stores without giving up the farm.

Case in point; McCabe's Music in Santa Monica, California. I thought this would be ab easy sell, since Frank played there often during the early years and he really helped establish McCabe's as an important showcase theater.

All I got was, "Who is Frank Hamilton?" I said, "look at your website - he was a regular player there for years." She said, "send me an album." I did. For the next 3 months, all I heard was "Sorry, I haven't got to it yet." So far, Frank is being played on well over 100 FM radio shows, but that hasn't translated into sales as near as I can see.

I doubt if she'll order any. So far, we have 6 dealers. If this were just any album, I wouldn't care as much, but, as Sam Hinton said, "This is an important album", not only to Frank, but to me as well.

If it doesn't sell well, I'll be out a few thousand bucks, which won't kill me, but it holds serious import for lesser known artists, without Frank's credentials

I don't know the answer. Hell, I'm not even sure I really understand the question.

Subject: RE: Is Making Your Own CD Becoming Too Easy?
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 07 Dec 99 - 07:17 PM

Harvey, I'd like to get a copy of Frank's 'Long Lonesome Home'. Would I find it in Folk friendly music stores in Toronto, Ontario? Could I mail you US funds and order a copy?
I'd appreciate if you would send a personal message or email [e-mail]

Thanks,
Bonnie

Subject: RE: Is Making Your Own CD Becoming Too Easy?
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 07 Dec 99 - 10:39 PM

Harvey,

I won't promise anything, but, I have done lots of marketing, promotional and advertising work, and I might be able to give a couple ideas on how to make your sale--if you send your e-mail address, either stick it up here, or send it to my mailbox here at mudcat, help will be on the way--

Subject: RE: Is Making Your Own CD Becoming Too Easy?
From:
Date: 08 Dec 99 - 03:48 AM

Ted, Any help would be gratefully accepted.