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Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II

Related threads:
Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART IV (58)
Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III (115) (closed)
Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants (125) (closed)


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Subject: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 21 Jan 17 - 08:47 PM

      This is an edited PermaThread®, used for a special project. This thread will be moderated. Feel free to post to this thread, but remember that all messages posted here are subject to editing or deletion.
      -Joe Offer-

Hi,

This PART II of "Died for Love" which I've narrowed down to these different variants-- some might be considered separate ballads but they have some of the core stanzas. Some version have a narrative (ballad and some are stanzas of core lyrics (love songs). There may be other related ballads that may be added as we go. This is what I have so far (have not added all the versions to this):

A. Died for Love-- Roud 60 ("I Wish, I Wish") Roud 495
   a. "The Effects of Love- A New Song," broadside; 1 sheet; 1/80. British Library 11621.k.4(158), London c.1780.
   b. "I Wish I Wish"
   c. "What a Voice"

B. The Cruel Father ("A squire's daughter near Aclecloy,") her love is sent to sea- dies of a cannonball; Roud 23272
   a. "The Cruel Father or Deceived Maid," from the Madden Collection, c.1790.
   b. "Answer to Rambling Boy" from a chapbook by J. & M. Robertson, Saltmarket, Glasgow; 1799.
   c. "The Squire's Daughter," printed by W. Shelmerdine and Co., Manchester c. 1800
   d. "Answer to Rambling Boy," four printings from US Chapbooks: 1. The Harper: to which are added, Shannon's flowery banks, The rambling boy, with The answer. Bung your eye, Henry and Laury [i.e. Laura]. London [i.e., Philadelphia : s.n., 1805?] 2. The Rambling boy, with the Answer : to which is added, Blue bells of Scotland, Good morrow to your night cap, Capt. Stephen Decatur's victory, Green upon the cape. From Early American imprints., Second series, no. 50722. [Philadelphia]: [publisher not identified], 1806; 3. The Bold mariners: The rambling boy, and the answer: Roslin Castle, to which is added the answer: Flashy Tom. [Philadelphia? : s.n.], January, 1811; 4. Ellen O'Moore. The Bold mariners. The Rambling boy. Barbara Allen. [United States : s.n.], January, 1817.
   e. "Sweet William," as written down about July 1, 1915, by Miss Mae Smith of Sugar Grove, Watauga county, from the singing of her stepmother, Mrs. Mary Smith, who learned it over forty years ago. submitted by Thomas Smith, Brown Collection, c.1875.
   f. "Rambling Boy" Cowboy Songs and Other Frontier Ballads, John Lomax 1916 edition.
   g. "Cruel Father" sung by Fanny Coffee of White Rock, Virginia on May 8, 1918. Cecil Sharp Manuscript Collection.
   h. "The Wrecked and Rambling Boy" from Mrs. Audrey Hellums, Tishomingo, Mississippi. Hudson C, 1926
   i. "Oh Willie" from Mary Lou Bell of Staunton Virginia; 1932
   j. "The Isle of Cloy" collected by E.J. Moeran in the 1930s in Suffolk from George Hill and Oliver Waspe.
   k. "Black Birds.' Miss Lura Wagoner of Vox, Allegheny County, NC, 1938
   l. "Oh Willie" sung by Rod Drake of Silsbee Texas; See Owens, 1952.
   m. "Rude and Rambling Boy," Buna Hicks Sugar Grove, NC , 1966.

C. The Rambling Boy ("I am a wild and a rambling boy") Roud 18830, c. 1765
   a. "The Wild Rover," The Musical Companion (British Library) London, c. 1765.
   b. "Rambling Boy," To which is Added, The New Vagary O, Shepherds I Have Lost My Love, The Drop of Dram, Fight Your Cock in the Morning. Published by W. Goggin of Limerick BM 11622 c.14, dated 1790.
   c. "Rambling Boy," from a chapbook by J. & M. Robertson, Saltmarket, Glasgow; 1799. Same text as "Rambling Boy" printed by William Scott in Greenock no date, probably early 1800s [c. 1812].
   d. "Rambling Boy," broadside J. Pitts, 14 Great St. Andrew Street, Seven Dials, London c. 1806
   e. "The Wild Rambling Boy," T. Birt, Printer, 39, Great St. Andrew Street, Seven Dials; London c. 1833.
   f. "The Rambling Boy" broadside first line "rake and rambling boy" (Manchester Reference Library, Ballads Vol. 5, page 392) Gardham 5A

D. Brisk Young Lover ("A brisk young sailor courted me,") Roud 60
   a. "The Lady's Lamentation for the Loss of her Sweetheart," from the Manchester Central library; c.1775. It is mixed with Oxfordshire Tragedy c. 1686 (after stanza 4) and called a sequel to Oxfordhire by Ebsworth.
   b. "A New Song Call'd the Distress'd Maid," London, (no imprint) in the Madden Collection Cambridge University Library (Slip Songs H-N no. 1337) c.1785.
   c. ["A Faithful Shepherd"] - from John Clare (b. 1793 in Helpstone), MS dated 1818
   d. "Brisk Young Sailor," broadside by W. Pratt, Printer, 82, Digbeth, Birmingham; c.1850
   e. "Brisk Young Sailor," broadside by Bebbington, Manchester; c. 1855
   f. "Brisk Young Sailor" sung by Starlina Lovell, gypsy, in Wales area. Collected by Groome, published 1881.
   g. "There Was Three Worms," sung by Mr. Bartlett of Dorset in 1905; collected by H.E.D Hammond. From: Songs of Love and Country Life by Lucy E. Broadwood, Cecil J. Sharp, Frank Kidson, Clive Carey and A. G. Gilchrist; Journal of the Folk-Song Society, Vol. 5, No. 19 (Jun., 1915), pp. 174-203.
   h. "A Brisk Young Sailor." Sung by Thomas (William) Colcombe, Weobley, Herefords, noted F.W. Jekyll, Sep. 1906.
   i. "A Brisk Young Sailor." Tune noted by Francis Jekyll in 1908. Tune and 1st stanza given by Mr. Ford of Scaynes Hill, Sussex; additional words by Mrs. Cranstone. From the George Butterworth Manuscript Collection (GB/12/3).
   j. "Died For Love" (A bold young farmer) Isla Cameron

E. Butcher Boy ("In Jersey city where I did dwell") Roud 409; Roud 18832
   a. "The Butcher Boy." broadside [Philadelphia]: J.H. Johnson, song publisher, 7 N. Tenth St., Philadelphia., c. 1860
   b. "The Butcher Boy," broadside from H. De Marsan (New York), 1861-1864 Bodleian, Harding B 18(72) c. 1860
   c. "The Butcher Boy of Baltimore," words and music by Harry Tofflin. "Wm. J. Schmidt, 2507 W. North Ave. NY c. 1865
   d. "The Butcher Boy" Henry De Marsan's New Comic and Sentimental Singer's Journal, Issue 1, p. 16, NY, 1871
   e. "The Butcher Boy." Broadside by Henry J. Wehman, Song Publisher, No. 50 Chatham Street, New York City; c.1880.

F. Foolish Young Girl, or, Irish Boy ("What a foolish girl was I,") Roud 60
a. "The Irish Boy," Elizabeth St. Clair of Edinburgh, c.1770; Clark, The Mansfield Manuscript (2015) pp.4-6.
b. "The Maid's Tragedy," a broadside from St. Bride's Printing Library S447 (my ref BS 1900), c1790.
c. "A New Love Song," Gil, No. 6, printed by Bart. Corcoran, Inn's Quay, Dublin c. 1774?
d. "The Irish Boy," a broadside, Poet's Box, 80 London Street, Glasgow, c. 1872
e. "Sailor Boy," sung by Georgina Reid of Aberdeenshire, about 1882 Duncan C
f."Foolish Young Girl" From John Strachan, of Strichen, b. 1875 heard the song as a child. His mother used to sing it, c. 1885.
g, "Student Boy," sung by W. Wallace of Aberdeenshire about September, 1908 Duncan B
h. "Foolish Young Girl," sung by Jean Elvin, Turriff, 1952- recorded by Hamish Henderson. From "Tocher: Tales, Songs, Tradition" - Issue 43 - Page 41, 1991.
i. "The Young Foolish Girl," sung by Jeannie Hutchison, Traditional Music from the Shetland Isles (online) SA1974.13.3

G. Queen of Hearts ("The Queen of Hearts and the Ace of sorrow") Roud 3195
a. "The Queen of Hearts" Pitts Printer; Wholesale Toy and Marble warehouse 6, Great St. Andrew street; 7 Dials, London- c.1820
b. "The Queen of Hearts" Wright, Printer, 113, Moor-Street, Birmingham c. 1833
c. "Queen of Hearts" Collected Baring-Gould as sung by a workman engaged on the Burrow-Tor reservoir at Sheepstor, the water supply for Plymouth, 1894

H. The Darling Rose ("My love he is a false love,"); an imitation of a minstrel version.
a. "The Darling Rose," a broadside (GPB 585) Air- Beauty and the Beast; October 4, 1851

I. "Tavern in the Town" by F. J. Adams, 1891. ("There is a tavern in the town") Roud 18834
a. "Tavern in the Town" by F. J. Adams, 1891.
b. "There Is a Tavern in the Town" 1883 edition of William H. Hill's Student Songs.
c. "Randoo, Randoo" print from NYC, "Randoo" is South American for "adieu"
d. "The Drunkard Song." Rudy Vallee, 1934

J. Maiden's Prayer ("She was a maiden young and fair") c.1918; Roud18828
a. "The Soldier's Love"- sung by Fred Cottenham (Kent) c.1925
b. Maiden's Prayer- Airman's Song Book, p126 by C Ward Jackson and Leighton Lucas, dated c. 1933.
c. "All You Maidens Sweet and Kind." From Hamish Henderson's "Ballads of World War II" (Caledonian Press, Glasgow, 1947). Recorded (almost) verbatim on Ewan MacColl's "Bless 'em All and Other British Army Songs" (Riverside, 1959).
d. "Maiden's Prayer- sung by Doreen Cross of Hessle, East Riding, Yorkshire in 1974. From "An East Riding Songster," 1982 by Steve Gardham.
e. "Sailor Boy"- sung by Tony Ballinger of Brockworth. Recorded by Gwilym Davies, Upton St. Leonards, Gloucestershire on 14 April, 1977; Gwilym Davies Collection.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 21 Jan 17 - 08:54 PM

Hi,

I want to thank everyone who contributed to Part I. Now I need help with part II.

Here's a link to "I Wish I was a Maid Again": http://www.tobarandualchais.co.uk/en/play/20269;jsessionid=DB4BCD60CBA4D262CF7F8B187E7EECCA

Please help me with this quick transcription.

I Wish I Was a Maid Again- sung by Bella Stewart. Recorded by Calum Iain Maclean in 1955.

What a silly young maid was I,
To fall in love with a drummer[1] boy,
A drummer boy I never knew'd,
But he spoke braid Scotch when he first coorted me.

"When my apron strings were long,
He can follow me through cold frost and snow
And when my apron reached my knee
And he passed me by as if he never knew me."

I wish I wish and I in vain
I wish, I wish I was a maid again,
For a maid, a maid I'll never be,
"Till an apple it grows on an orange tree."

[I'm not the same, will never me][2]
He's like a bird on yonder tree
Some [says] he's blind and cannae see
I wish would it have hap[pened] to me
When I fell into his company

It's [There's] a bar in yon town
My true love had to go out
He'll take a stranger on his knee
And tell her things that he once told me

I wish, I wish, my baby's born,
And sitting on his granny's knee,
Poor[3] thing, poor thing, I'm [she's] dead and gone,
With the green grass growing over her.

1. pronounced "drammer"
2. ?
3. abrupt change to 3rd person narrative.

I tried- let's get right :)

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 21 Jan 17 - 09:23 PM

Hi,

The singer in the last post is Bella (not Belle) Stewart who died around 1964. She was born and brought up in Muir of Ord. She was a traveller. Anyone know more about her?

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 21 Jan 17 - 10:10 PM

Here's one more:

The link to recording: http://www.tobarandualchais.co.uk/en/play/37180;jsessionid=DB4BCD60CBA4D262CF7F8B187E7EECCA

I Wish, I Wish- sung by Charlotte Higgins (1895-1971) of Blairgowrie, Perthshire in July, 1961. Recorded by Hamish Henderson; Maurice Fleming.

1. The blackbird sits in yonder tree,
Some say he's blind and cannae see;
Some say he's blind and cannae see,
So is my true love to me.

2. O I wish, I wish, but I wish in vain,
I wish I were a maid again,
But a maid again I'll never be,
Til an apple grows on an orange tree.

3. O, I wish, I wish my babe were born,
And sitting on his nurse's knee.
I wish myself was dead and gone,
And green, green grass growing over me.

4. There is a tavern in this toon,
Where my true love gang and he sits down
He takes a damsel on his knee,
He tells her what he once told me.

5. O I wish, I wish, but I wish in vain
I wish I were a maid again,
But a maid again I'll never be,
Til the apple grows on the orange tree.

6. O I wish my father never knew
O I wish my mother never had come,
I wish the cradle never had rocked
I wish I died when I was young.

7. O I wish, I wish, but I wish in vain
I wish I were a maid again,
But a maid again I never will be,
Til an apple grows on an orange tree.

Should be about right except stanza 6-- first line esp.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 22 Jan 17 - 01:58 PM

Hi,

I'm reposting Jim Carroll's post here because Robertson's version is very close to the two version posted previously:

This is the note given in Porter and Gower's, Jeannie Robertson, Emergent Singer, Formative Voice

(Love Has Brought Me to Despair, Laws P25)

What a voice, what a voice, what a voice I hear,
It is like the voice of my Willie dear;
But if I had wings like that swallow flyin,
For I would clasp in the arms of my Billy Boy.

When my apron it hung low,
My true love followed through frost and snow;
But now my apron it's tae my shins,
And he passes me by and he'll ne'er speir in.

It was up onto the white house brae,
That he called a strange girlie to his knee,
And he tellt her a tale which he once told me.

O I wish, I wish, O I wish in vain,
I wish I was a maid again;
But a maid again I will never be
Till a aipple it grows on a orange tree.

O I wish, I wish that my babe was born,
And smilin' on some nurse's knee;
And for mysel' to be dead and gone,
And the long green grass growin' over me.

For there's a blackbird sits on yon tree;
Some says it's blind and it cannae see;
Some says it's blind and it cannae see,
And so is my true love to me.

73.1 Wish, I Wish (Love Has Brought Me to Despair, Laws P25)
Other titles for this song, which Jeannie learned from Maria, are common; it belongs to the "Died of/for Love—The Bold/Brisk Young Sailor/Farmer" story complex. A note by Lucy Broadwood (in Journal of the Folk-Song Society 19 [1915]: 186-87) indicates a probable ancestor of the text in Laing's Broadside Ballads (ca. 1700) with the tide "Arthur's Seat shall be my bed, or Love in despair." The essence of the theme has been compared to stanzas of "Waly, Waly" in Orpheus Caledonius (1725) and the later version in the The Scots Musical Museum (James Johnson 1788: 166; see also Ritson 1794, 1:235-36). The further textual connection with "Jamie Douglas" (Child 204) is well known. Bronson 1959-72, 3:258 firmly believes that the makers of the ballad used a popular lament to fill out its verses, singing it to the same tune. Christie 1876: 248 includes a version of the song in his first volume. It appears in the Duncan MS as "The Student Boy," and the first of five tunes in the Greig MS is entided "Arthur's Seat." The most recent Scottish variants are in: Buchan 1962: 61, with the title, "Will Ye Gang, Love?"; Buchan and Hall 1973: 93, a version by Lizzie Mary Hutchison; and MacColl and Seeger 1977: 194-98, sung by Charlotte Higgins. The air used by both Lizzie Mary Hutchison and Charlotte Higgins is closely related to Jeannie's, and she herself uses it for "The Famous Flower of Serving Men" (Child 106). It appears again in MacColl and Seeger 1977 as that for "The Convict Song," sung by John MacDonald (291). The earliest English printed variants are in Kidson 1891: 44-46, Baring Gould and Sheppard 1892: 184—85, and the Hammond MS (1905). Dean-Smith 1954: 63 gives a list of published versions. See also Gilchrist 1938: 192-93 and 1946: 16-17, Lloyd 1953: 103, and Palmer 1973: 278. See also Reeves 1958: 43—45, 90-92; and Reeves 1960: 96-98. There is an analog (in Journal of the Folk-Song Society 27 (1930): 110-12) called "The Shannon Water, or Mabel Kelly," and another immediately following, "Happy the Worm Lies Under the Stone." The Stanford-Petrie collection has it as no. 811, "I wish, I wish, but I wish in vain," and there are two fragments in Bunting 1796. Henry recovered it from Mrs. H. Dinsmore of Coleraine as "The Apron of Flowers" (Huntington and Herrmann 1990: 393). Several versions of the text have been recovered in North America, where it has been linked to "Careless Love" (cf. Lomax 1960: 585). Laws 1957: 61 names it "Love Has Brought Me to Despair" (P25) and notes versions from Indiana and Illinois. Additional texts are in Combs 1925: 205, Cox 1925: 353-57, Korson 1949: 48—49, Owens 1950: 134—35, and Randolph (1950: 268-69); see also the "Lullaby" in Grover n.d.: 24. "Floating" stanzas, lines, and images link the verses to similar stories of unhappy love, such as "The Butcher Boy" (68 above; Laws P24) or "The Sailor Boy" (Laws K12). The imagery of the apron (pregnancy), white house ("alehouse) strange girl, apple on the orange tree, burial beneath long green grass, and the girl are retained in most English and Scottish versions of the text.

Recorded versions-. SA 1952/33; 1953/195; SX 1958/2; 1956/2; Topic 10T52;
Collector CLE 1201 (Jean Ritchie's recording of Jeannie singing stanzas 2, 3, 4, 6); Folktracks FSA 067; Lizzie Higgins, Lismor LIFL 7004; Isla Cameron, Columbia KL 206; Amy Birch, Topic 12TS349; Campbell Family, Topic 12T120; Martin Carthy. Topic 12TS344; Audrey Coppard, Folkways FP 917; Frank Hinchcliffe, Topic 12TS308; Roscoe Holcomb, Folkways FA 2374; Norman Kennedy, Topic 12T178, Folk-Legacy FSS-34; Geoff Ling, Topic 12T236; Walter Pardon, Topic 12TS392; Frank Profitt, Folk-Legacy FSA 1; Jasper Smith, Topic 12TS304; Joseph Taylor, Leaarr LEA 4050; Tom Willett, Topic 12T84.
Additional references-. Child 1882-98, 4:90-105; Gower and Porter 1977: 67-70; Henry 1923-29, 2:194; Joyce 1909: 134; Kennedy 1975: 349, 372; Loesberg 1980 2:60-61; Lyle 1975: 108; Moulden 1979: 13.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 22 Jan 17 - 02:29 PM

Hi,

I take issue with Porter and Gower's notes in several places.

1)"Arthur's-Seat Shall be my Bed" is related to "Must I be Bound" and is not related to Robertson's song- there are no stanzas in common.

2) Some "Will Ye Gang, Love?" stanzas are in common but the song AKA "Rashy Muir" also has a different chorus and stanzas not in common. It's a different song.

3. They say, "Christie 1876: 248 includes a version of the song in his first volume." Christie's song "Sailing Trade" in Traditional Ballad Airs 1876 is completely different and has no stanzas in common. It is a version of "Sailor Boy/Sweet Willie" which sometimes have the "Dig me a grave" ending-- Christie's version doesn't.

4. At the top the heading is (Love Has Brought Me to Despair, Laws P25). "Love Has Brought" is based entirely on Near Woodstock/Constant Lady broadside which is an entirely different song. However, some stanzas have been found in "Died for Love/Brisk Young Lover" Roud 60 and appeared more recently in Brisk Young Sailor broadsides of the 1800s. There is only one stanza (the last, "For there's a blackbird") that is related. In my opinion the heading is completely wrong.

5. Waly, Waly is based on completely different broadsides mainly the Unfortunate Swain variety. The theme and floating stanzas are similar but the core stanzas are different.

6. A version of Waly, Waly was inserted in "Jamie Douglas" (Child 204) and "Died for Love/Brisk Young Lover" Roud 60 have nothing to do with that insertion since it's a different love song.

* * * *

A number of broadsides do have stanzas in common with "Died for Love/Brisk Young Lover" Roud 60 and these Scottish variants.

They include: 1) "The Constant Lady and False-hearted Squire," also called "Oxfordshire Tragedy" by Louis Chappell
2) "Nelly's Constancy" c. 1686
3) "Jealous lover"
4) "The Irish Boy," a broadside from Poet's Box, 80 London Street, Glasgow, c. 1872;
5) "The Maid's Tragedy," a broadside from St. Bride's Printing Library S447 (my ref BS 1900), c1790;
6) "A New Love Song," Gil, No. 6, printed by Bart. Corcoran, Inn's Quay, Dublin c. 1803
7) "The Lady's Lamentation for the Loss of her Sweetheart" 1775
8) "The Effects of Love" 1780
9) "Queen of Hearts" mid 1800s

None of these are even mentioned,

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 22 Jan 17 - 02:34 PM

Hi,

Please excuse my typing and proofing- correction (date of Christie is wrong):

3. They say, "Christie 1876: 248 includes a version of the song in his first volume." Christie's song, "Sailing Trade" in Traditional Ballad Airs 1876, is completely different ballad.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Lighter
Date: 22 Jan 17 - 03:02 PM

Bella Stewart:

Sounds like "trav'ller boy" to me. You can just hear the "l."

"When he first [drank Scotch?] when he coorted me."

"He can follow me cauld frost and snow." [Sic.]

"An' if my aperon reached my knee"

"An he passed me by if he ever knew me."

"I wish, I wish, an' I wish in vain.
An' I wish, I wish, wis a maid again.
For a maid, a maid, I'll never be
Till an apple blows in an orange tree."

"I'm not the same, will never be,
It's a black bird in yonder tree,
Some says blind and cawn not see,
I [hope one hope?] what happened me
When I fell in with his company."

"It's a house in yonder town,
My true love [has to?] down,
He'll take a strange girl on her [sic] knee,"

"And sittin' small on his granny's knee,
Poor she, poor [she?] lies dead and gone,
And there's only green grass lying over her."


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 22 Jan 17 - 03:56 PM

TY Lighter,

The second correction is still "braid Scotch" or braw/broad/good Scotch since that the ways all the other versions are. When I first heard her I could barely understand a word but after knowing what she "should be singing" I could somewhat understand it.

Gr8 job!

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Lighter
Date: 22 Jan 17 - 04:55 PM

But I don't see how "braid Scotch" can immediately follow "first," which is what I seem to hear - not "spoke."

Some Scots word? Travellers' cant?


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 22 Jan 17 - 06:22 PM

Hi,

I've added Lighter's corrections and only changed two of them:

I Wish I Was a Maid Again- sung by Bella Stewart from Muir of Ord, Scotland. Recorded by Calum Iain Maclean in 1955.

What a silly young maid was I,
To fall in love with a trav'ller boy,
A trav'ller boy I never knew'd,
But he spoke braid Scotch when he coorted me.

When my apron strings were long,
He can follow me [thro'] cold frost and snow
And when my aperon[1] reached my knee
And he passed me by [as] if he never knew me.

I wish I wish an' I wish in vain
An' I wish, I wish I wis a maid again,
For a maid, a maid I'll never be,
Till an apple grows in an orange tree.

I'm not the same, will never be,
It's a blackbird in yonder tree,
Some says [he's] blind and cannot see
I hope, I hope would happened [to] me,
When I fell in with his company.

It's a house in yonder town
My true love had to go down,
He'll take a strange girl on his[2] knee
And tell her things that he once told me

I wish, I wish, my baby's born,
And sitting small on his granny's knee,
Poor[3] she, poor she, lies dead and gone,
And there's only green grass lying over her.

1. apron
2. originally "her"
3. abrupt change to 3rd person narrative.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Lighter
Date: 22 Jan 17 - 07:09 PM

It might be "But she, poor thing...."


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 22 Jan 17 - 09:59 PM

TY Lighter

I'll listen once more.

What is obvious is the lack of any kind of coherent song notes (see What a Voice notes above). There seems to be little scholarly agreement or understanding of the underlying sources. Some of this is due to lack of information but it seems the initial, usually faulty, notes from the past are being regurgitated. At least Steve Gardham has tried to split up Roud 60 and it seems more splitting needs to be done.

My brief study has shown which I've separated by letter designation so far A-H. With my B version (see above) tentatively included-- although it's a different plot. Steve warned me it would be difficult!!!

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 23 Jan 17 - 09:37 AM

HI Richie,
Way back in 1985, Tristram Coffin tried to suggest some ways forward with this lament type in an essay you might find useful. He used 'Green Grows the Laurel' as his starting point but lots of what he had to say was relevant to 'Died for Love' songs. The essay is in Narrative Folksong New Directions eds. Edwards and Manley, p59. You should easily get a copy at your side. I don't fully agree with his approach as opposed to the stemmatic way we go about it, but it is useful to look at another approach, and his ideas would be helpful in understanding the whole complex genre.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 23 Jan 17 - 10:25 AM

TY Steve,

I've got some corrections of Charlotte Higgins version. It should be correct now. Charlotte sings the same melody as Jennie Roberston, who married a Higgins and was a cousin of Jock Higgins who was Charlotte's second husband. Charlotte claims on her 1955 recording that she heard her great grandmother sing this song. It was "my great granny's song." In her 1955 recording she adds this stanza:

It's when my apron it was new,
It wis a bricht and bonny blue
But noo my apron's tae my knee,
He cares nae mair what becomes o me.

This was her first stanza of that session- she stopped twice. Charlotte Higgins (nee Riley) was born in Perkmass, Lumphanon, Aberdeenshire, in 1893. Her father Thomas Lucas from Bristol was a fisherman who arranged for Charlotte to be brought up by the Riley's a family of travellers after her mother Mary Paul died.

Her first husband a MacGuire, was killed in the First World War and her second husband, Jock Higgins was a cousin of Jeannie Roberston who married a Higgins. Here's the corrected text (see stanza 6) from Charolotte's 1961 recording:

I Wish, I Wish- sung by Charlotte Higgins (1895-1971) of Blairgowrie, Perthshire in July, 1961. Recorded by Hamish Henderson; Maurice Fleming.

1. The blackbird sits in yonder tree,
Some say he's blind and cannae see;
Some say he's blind and cannae see,
So is my true love to me.

2. O I wish, I wish, but I wish in vain,
I wish I were a maid again,
But a maid again I'll never be,
Til the apple grows on the orange tree.

3. O, I wish, I wish my babe were born,
And sitting on his nurse's knee.
I wish myself was dead and gone,
And green, green grass growing over me.

4. There is a tavern in this toon,
Where my true love gangs and he sits doon
He takes a damsel on his knee,
He tells her what he once told me.

5. O I wish, I wish, but I wish in vain
I wish I were a maid again,
But a maid again I'll never be,
Til the apple grows on the orange tree.

6. O I wish my father ne'er had whistled,
O I wish my mother never had sung,
I wish the cradle never had rocked
I wish I died when I was young.

7. O I wish, I wish, but I wish in vain
I wish I were a maid again,
But a maid again I never will be,
Til the apple grows on the orange tree.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 23 Jan 17 - 11:40 AM

Hi,

I've added the final two corrections: "But he first [spoke] braid Scotch"; and "But she, poor thing," suggested by Lighter:

I Wish I Was a Maid Again (final transcription)- sung by Bella Stewart. Recorded by Calum Iain Maclean in 1955. Transcription by Richard Matteson and Lighter, 2017.

What a silly young maid was I,
To fall in love with a trav'ller boy,
A trav'ller boy I never knew'd,
But he first [spoke] braid Scotch when he coorted me.

When my apron strings were long,
He can follow me [thro'] cold frost and snow
And when my aperon[1] reached my knee
And he passed me by [as] if he never knew me.

I wish I wish an' I wish in vain
An' I wish, I wish I wis a maid again,
For a maid, a maid I'll never be,
Till an apple grows in an orange tree.

I'm not the same, will never be,
It's a blackbird in yonder tree,
Some says [he's] blind and cannot see
I hope, I hope would happened [to] me,
When I fell in with his company.

It's a house in yonder town
My true love had to go down,
He'll take a strange girl on his[2] knee
And tell her things that he once told me

I wish, I wish, my baby's born,
And sitting small on his granny's knee,
But[3] she, poor thing, lies dead and gone,
And there's only green grass lying over her.

1. apron
2. originally "her"
3. abrupt change to 3rd person narrative.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Lighter
Date: 23 Jan 17 - 01:04 PM

Richie, now I'm wondering if "hope" in "I hope what happened me" is really a different word, or a slip of the tongue for another word, like "weep" (which makes perfect grammatical sense in British English).


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 23 Jan 17 - 03:21 PM

OK, ty lighter you excel at detail work!

I'm not sure of the source of this version. It was sung by Taffies
(slang word for Welshman) collected in an orchard, by Brendan Behan?
I assume borstal is youth detention centre in the United Kingdom.

From his 1958 autobiographical book Borstal Boy by Brendan Behan

And the last and serious song:

In Liverpool where I did dwell,
A Borstal boy I loved so well,
He courted me, and stole my heart away,
And then with me, he would not stay.

Her father dear came 'ome one night,
'E found 'is daughter out of sight,
'E went upstairs and the door 'e broke,
And 'e found 'er 'anging by a rope.

'E got 'is shiv, and cut 'er down
And on 'er writ, these words 'e found,
"Oh, father dear, waht a fool was I,
To 'ang myself for a Borstal boy.

When I'm in my grave, and dead,
A granite stone lay at my 'ead,
And at my feet put a turtle dove,
To show my friends I died for love."

Anyone have any additional info on this song? Who are the taffies singing it in his book- farm workers?

Richie

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Lighter
Date: 23 Jan 17 - 03:33 PM

Interesting that Welshmen are shown singing in a music-hall Cockney accent!

Maybe they (and maybe the soldiers who sang the WW2 versions) thought of it largely as a kind of black humor.

Cf. the less ambiguously derisive "She was Poor but She Was Honest," also generally sung in a Cockney accent.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 23 Jan 17 - 04:08 PM

Why Cockney, Jon? They're just not pronouncing their aitches so it could be almost anywhere in Britain.

I can vouch for the fact that the WWII and after versions were sung as serious sentimental songs alongside the vilest filthy mysogenistic and racist material. My uncle who was an acclaimed bar-room entertainer would sing this in all seriousness and reverence followed by the Virgin Sturgeon! All manner of material was sung at the sods operas in the British forces as I'm sure they were in other countries.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 23 Jan 17 - 04:11 PM

Although I don't recognise the word 'shiv' for knife Wikipedia gives it as fairly common and possibly Romani cant in origin.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Lighter
Date: 23 Jan 17 - 04:32 PM

Known to all connoisseurs of American gangster stories and films of the '20s,'30s, and '40s.

In the U.S., mainly an urban expression.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 24 Jan 17 - 10:15 AM

Hi,

I'm trying to wrap up the UK versions for now so I can start on the UK versions. I need help finding the text or recording online of these recordings:

1. The Alehouse- sung by Elizabeth Cronin of Macroom, Co. Cork, on the anthology Sailormen and Servingmaids (The Folk Songs of Britain Volume 6; Caedmon 1961; Topic 1970).

2. The Butcher Boy- sung by Duncan Williamson (Fife) - Kyloe CD 101. Recorded by Mike Yates around 2000. Also on his Traveller's Joy CDs.

3. There Is a Tavern in the Town- sung by Emma Vickers from Lancashire in a recording made by Fred Hamer in Autumn 1963 that he printed in his 1967 EFDS book of English folk songs, Garners Gay. This recording was included in 1989 on the EFDSS cassette The Leaves of Life: The Field Recordings of Fred Hamer and in 1998 on the EFDSS anthology A Century of Song.

I think I've got close to 200 UK versions (190) so far. TY for your help. They can be accessed here: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/british--other-versions-7-died-for-love.aspx

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 24 Jan 17 - 11:03 AM

Richie,
I've probably got all of these. Will send them later.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Lighter
Date: 24 Jan 17 - 12:16 PM

>close to 200 UK versions

Wow.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 24 Jan 17 - 02:57 PM

And there's probably quite a few Richie hasn't got yet, but don't forget we're talking about a whole genre of songs here. We've identified at least 10 so far that should be considered separate songs.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 24 Jan 17 - 05:00 PM

Hi,

TY Steve, Lighter.

Most are:
Roud 60 Brisk Young Lover
       Foolish Young Girl; Irish Boy
Roud 495 I Wish I wish
Roud 18828 Maiden's Prayer ("She was a maiden young and fair")

I noticed a sub-set of Roud 60 called "There's an Alehouse" and after looking at the versions the first stanza of Brisk Young Sailor is left off almost as if it was once added on. I think that's why MacColl didn't mention the Brisk Young Lover songs.

I'm wondering also about Pitman's Love song and the 'I Wish I wish" songs. Is there a relationship? Lloyd apparently thought they were related.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 24 Jan 17 - 11:50 PM

Here's Llyod's version of Pitman's Love song that he revived from John Bell of Newcastle whose version dates c.1830:

I Wish I Wish (or: the pitman's love song)as sung by A. L. Lloyd

    (Trad)

    I wish my love she was a cherry
    A-growing on yon cherry tree
    And I myself a bonnie blackbird
    How I would peck that sweet cherry

    I wish my love she was a red rose
    A-growing on yon garden wall
    And I myself a drop of dew
    How on that red rose I would fall

    I wish my love was in a little box
    And I myself to carry the key
    I'd go in to her whenever I'd a mind
    And I'd bear my love good company

    I wish my love she was a grey ewe
    A-grazing by yonder riverside
    And I myself a fine black ram
    Oh on that ewe how I would ride

    My love she's bonnie, my love she's canny
    And she's well favoured for to see
    And the more I think on her my heart is set upon her
    And under her apron I fain would be

    I wish my love she was a bee-skip
    And I myself a bumble-bee
    That I might be a lodger within her
    For she's sweeter than the honey or the honeycomb tea.

This is obviously a different song but it does have the I Wish opening. I've seen Pittman's Love song grouped with version of out ballad I Wish I Wish.

It's curious that many of the "I Wish I Wish" variants (like the three posted in this thread by Scottish singers) also have the alehouse stanza- does that mean they aren't versions of I Wish I Wish anymore?

Aren't they all the same- whether two stanza like Joseph Taylor's, or threes stanzas or six stanzas?

The singers, the Scottish School and Roud consider the alehouse stanza to be part of I wish. So how are they separate variants?

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 25 Jan 17 - 03:52 PM

Hi,

Heres a trivia question. Where did the text from the 4th stanza of Butterworth's "A Brisk Young Sailor" come from?

FOLK SONGS FROM SUSSEX published in 1913- tune Mr. Ford.

[7] A brisk young sailor courted me

A brisk young sailor courted me,
He stole away my liberty,
He won my heart with a free good-will,
He's false, I know, but I love him still.

There is an alehouse in yonder town,
Where my love goes and sits him down,
He takes another girl on his knee,
And don't you think that's a grief to me?

A grief to me! I'll tell you why,
Because she's got more gold than I,
Her gold will waste and her beauty blast,
And she'll become like me at last.

O what a foolish girl was I
To give my heart to a sailor boy,
A sailor boy although he be,
I love him better than he loves me.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 25 Jan 17 - 03:58 PM

Hi Richie,
With songs of this type it doesn't make any difference what others in earlier years have said about them. In my opinion the only way to make this very difficult decision for your own purposes is to amass as many of the extant versions as possible, with broadside texts playing a primary role, and initially see which ones can easily be separated from the pack. You might want to impose your own rough rules in order to differentiate as I have done. You've already set me thinking about separating Rambling Boy and its Answer which I had put together.

Stanzas that start with 'I wish' are extremely common in songs of this type and must not be taken as relating one song to another.

Another approach is to establish stanzas and groups of stanzas that should be considered commonplaces and then leave them out of the equation initially. The 2/3 suicide stanzas occur in at least 4 of the songs under consideration for instance. The 'Dig my grave' stanza has attached itself to a whole host of songs.

You only have to look at the 17th century texts I sent you to see that several of the stanzas in 'Deep in Love' were already commonplaces then. At various points in the last 4 centuries both broadside writers and singers have strung together whole catalogues of these stanzas to make new songs. I said it wouldn't be easy.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 25 Jan 17 - 08:24 PM

Hi,

Cruel Father, my B, has a distinct plot but there aren't many versions. Two broadsides and the chapbook Answer and two trad versions-- the other trad versions from the US are weak connections but should be included. I already said it was a different ballad. However it does have the opening of Rambling Boy, the suicide and the "died for love" ending.

Cruel Father is related to Queen of Hearts-- which borrows its plot- although not in a convincing way. It's easy to see Rambling Boy, Cruel Father and Queen of Hearts forming another related family. The do have the "Died for love ending and for all practical purposes disappeared in by the mid-1900s.

As far as "Brisk Young Lover/There is an Alehouse"-- I'm now thinking Alehouse was first and Brisk Young Lover added an opening stanza.

The Scotch versions go back a ways and I believe the "alehouse" stanza was part of the "I Wish I Wish" versions. So you can't say the "I Wish" versions are versions without the "alehouse stanza." I posted the three Scotch version to make this point-- the "I wish" songs are not little fragments with the "I wish" stanza-- they also have the alehouse stanza.

The Alehouse/I Wish and Foolish Young Girl are fairly similar and there are two endings: 1. Til and apple grows on an orange tree and 2) she gathers flowers, makes her bed and dies of a broken heart [Constant Lady].

There are a number of "Butcher Boy" versions in the UK and the version from the US/Canada may have be adapted in the US but they also may have come from the UK initially.

I'm starting the North American version very soon so that should unlock more of the mystery,

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 26 Jan 17 - 09:54 AM

Until I see evidence to the contrary I'm happy to accept the Butcher's Boy was crystallised in America and that any British versions are derived from or influenced by the American oecotype. I believe that one British version actually mentions 'Jersey City'.

FWIW my thoughts on evolution of BYS:
The very influential c1840 broadside was derived from the 18thc 'The Lady's Lamentation'. As far as I can see the 'Brisk Young Sailor' first stanza is present in all early versions where the 'alehouse' stanza is also present so they came together as a job lot (along with the 'belly low' stanza). All 3 occur together right into the collecting period in the longer versions so from at least 18thc to modern day.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 27 Jan 17 - 12:02 AM

Thanks for the pointers Steve. "Butcher Boy" came over way before the printed sheet music of 1860 with Jersey City- that's obvious before even looking at the versions.

Started the US/Canada headnotes- not too long and with usual errors but here's the intro so far:

The origin and fundamental sources of The Butcher Boy have befuddled leading US musicologists from Kittredge(1916) to Cox (1925) and on to Belden (1940). The main source of confusion appears to be the underlying broadsides that in most cases were unavailable. Kittredge, however, had at his disposal the Harvard Library and Belden, despite mentioning two related early sources, The Deceased Maiden Lover and The Constant Lady and False-hearted Squire says, "The location is Sheffield park in Pitts's broadside of that title, which comes closest of all British stall prints to the American ballad. . .". Belden was unaware that the Pitts broadside was a later printing of Sheffield Park that had borrowed stanzas from "The Constant Lady/Near Woodstock" broadside which Chappell called "The Oxfordshire Tragedy[]."

Leading UK musicologists fared no better. The web of confusion that ensnared variants of "Died for Love," "Love has Brought Me To Despair," "Deep in Love" with "Waly, Waly" and "Sailor Boy, or, Sweet William" is still being regurgitated today. When Broadwood pointed out the melody of "Sailing Trade[]" was used in a version of "I Wish, I Wish" some how the compleely different texts became similar and the ballads were related.

With Steve Garham's assistance Steve Roud broke up his Roud 60 into a number distinct groups with different Roud numbers. However, the job is not complete and because of the mixing of stanzas it's difficult for any unanimous categorization. For example, look at The Traditional Ballad Index's entry for Roud 18830 which they assume is variants of Cruel Father but instead is Rambling Boy.

In the US Kittredge began by saying, "The piece appears to be an amalgamation of "The Squire's Daughter" (also known as "The Cruel Father, or, Deceived Maid") with "There is an Alehouse in Yonder Town" (well known as a student song in this country under the title "There is a Tavern in the Town")."

"The Cruel Father" ballads are somewhat different ballads with a different plot: The cruel father when he finds out his daughter is in love with a prentice boy sends him to sea where he is killed in a battle by a cannonball. The prentice's ghost haunts the father that night who come home to find his daughter has hung herself with a rope. She leaves a note blaming her father for her death.

The similarity of Cruel Father with "The Rambling Boy," is the opening line, the suicide and the "Died for Love" ending; with the Butcher Boy" the similarity is the suicide and "died for love" ending; with the later reduction "The Maidens Prayer" the similarity is the suicide and the "died for love" ending. So it's clear that Kittredge's statement shouldn't have "Squire's Daughter" in it. Certainly "There is an Alehouse" is very similar but is missing the suicide. Rambling Boy has the suicide and the reason for the suicide is similar. When Kittredge says Alehouse is "well known as a student song in this country" it should be noted that the similarity is that one stanza was taken from Alehouse/Brisk Young Lover and There is a Tavern was written around that one stanza-- it's not as if they are the same song-- but obviously the stanza is similar. So Kittredge's statement became the standard-- but in 1925 Cox refined the amalgamation--Cox now based the ballad on four different songs instead of two.

Cox states in Folk Songs of the South[], "The Butcher Boy" is made up of modified extracts from (1) "Sheffield Park"; (2) "The Squire's Daughter" (called also "The Cruel Father, or, Deceived Maid"); (3) "A Brisk Young Sailor" (or its abbreviated version, "There is an alehouse in yonder town"); and (4) "Sweet William" ("The Sailor Boy").

Cox kept Kittredge's two fundamentals (The Cruel Father, as pointed out-- is a poor choice) and added Sheffield Park and Sweet William. Additionally he said that Alehouse was an abreviation of Brisk Young Sailor which has an added opening stanza[]. Cox did not know that Sheffield Park, the Pitts broadside, was reworked by adding stanzas of another broadside[] (see above) and it is the other broadside's stanzas that are found mixed with Butcher Boy. Sheffield Park was printed circa 1770 as "The Unfortunate Maid" and later about 1790 as "The Youth from Sheffield Park." The Pitt's print of the early 1800s was reworked with a new ending derived from stanzas of Constant Lady." So it's not really Sheffield Park but Constant Lady that should be mentioned by Cox. Sweet William was mentioned by the English writers[] as having the same melody under the title, The Sailing Trade[]. There are other similarities-- Kidson's Lancashire version has the same ending stanzas-- but again the plot is different (same as Cruel father's plot is different)-- alas and alack!!! The Butcher Boy is not made up of Sweet William although the endings stanzas may be held in common.

Fifteen years later Belden and the Missouri Folklore Society published "Ballads and Songs" named, I believe, after Kittredge's 1917 article in the JAF of the same title. Belden's headnotes contend (as mentioned earlier) that Sheffield Park "comes closest of all British stall prints to the American ballad." Belden is in fact referring to the Pitt's reworded broadside and the added stanzas of "Constant Lady" as being "closest." The two early broadsides he mentions-- 1. The Deceased Maiden Lover and 2. The Constant Lady and False-hearted Squire are essentially the same. The Deceased Maiden Lover, however similar, is not the ballad used-- it's 2. Constant Lady. "The Deceased Maiden Lover" is a reworking of lutenist Robert Johnson's "A Forsaken Lover's Complaint" c. 1611. Belden's assertion may be responsible for "Deceased Maiden Lover" being listed as a version of Died For Love in Sam Henry's Songs of the People, by the editor Gale Huntington.

Yes, it's a tangled web.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 27 Jan 17 - 08:31 AM

And you've just scratched the surface! What you've mainly learnt here is to take no notice of previous research and do your own. The confusion around 18830 is all down to me, but I'm still not fully convinced it can easily be separated into 2 distinct songs. On narrative certainly but there are too many hybrids if that is the case. You are slowly convincing me and I need to take a closer look at the problem when the book is finished.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 27 Jan 17 - 09:38 AM

Hi,

I'm still wrapping up UK versions.

I finally have the transcription of For Love by Willie Mathieson
Listen: http://www.tobarandualchais.co.uk/en/play/15020;jsessionid=9AA340DD3D5A4D6DCDEA32656021217A
One of teh stanzas was sung in the wrong order, which I've changed.

For Love- from Willie Mathieson, learned from Annie Massie, maid at East Toddlehills, about 1894.

My lovie stands in yon stable door
A combing doon his yellow hair.
His curly locks they enticed me
But I'll never tell you who is he.

Chorus: Oh will ye gang love and leave noo
Oh will ye gang love and leave me noo
Will ye forsake a lover true
And go with the one ye never knew.

I was in the garden the other day
I pulled a rose baith fresh and gay,
I pulled the violets as they grew blue
But I little kent what love can do.

I was standing at the door one day
I saw my love go across the moor
My heart grew sick and my eyes grew dim
To think my bonnie love left me ahin

As lang as my apron it did bide low
He followed me through frost and snow
But noo its up aye tae my chin
My love gangs by but he comes nae in.

There is a Tavern in the toon
My love gaes in and he sits him doon
He taks anithcr girl on his knee
And isna that a grief to me.

A grief to me and I'll tell you why
Because this girl has more gold than I.
But her gold it will waste and her beauty fade
And this poor girl she will be like me.

But I'll tak aff my hose and sheen
And I'll follow him through Aberdeen,
But I'll scorn him as he scorned me
But I'll never tell you who is he.

You'll dig my grave both wide and deep
Put a marble stone at my head and feet
And in the centre two turtle doves
To let them know that I died for love.

This is a hybrid of "Will Ye Gang Love" and "Died For Love." The title is taken from the latter,

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 27 Jan 17 - 10:44 AM

HI Richie, as I'm sure you're aware this is a definite and simple hybrid. the first 2 stanzas are from 'Deep in Love' group, the chorus I think is peculiar to Scottish versions so probably added there as is the link stanza 3. The following 3 are from BYS, the next is a local composition and the last a commonplace.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 27 Jan 17 - 11:27 AM

Hi,

Yes, I forgot to mention stanza two is from Picking Lilies/Unfortunate Swain but it's "Will Ye Gang Love" which borrows stanzas.

Steve-- Here's an interesting tidbit you may not know and I didn't mention earlier, the first stanza "What A Voice" is similar to (common source)or based on the broadside "A new song called William and Nancy or The two hearts"- a version is in the Bodleian but it's also published in Belfast by Alex Mayne of High Street.

An Irish version was collected and the stanza appeared:

'What voice , what voice now is yon I hear?
It's like the voice of my Willie dear.
Oh, had I the wings, love, I'd feel no fear,
But fly forever till I knew thee near.'

The text is similar but no other stanzas seem to be in common- let me know what you think,

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 27 Jan 17 - 12:26 PM

Hi,

I have more info on "Early early". There's a recording by Robert Cinnamond, "Early, Early, by the Break of Day" by Peter Kennedy and one online The Two Hearts by Geordie Robertson which begins:

The Two Hearts

Early, early by the break of day,
Doon by yon green field I chanced to stray
I spied a fair maid [continues]

http://www.tobarandualchais.co.uk/en/play/68916;jsessionid=3E5997AE75B28D710569B0EA88412D32

A copy of th Irish broadside has been published in Ulster Folklife. Traditional Folk index calls it "Died for Love " III

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 29 Jan 17 - 04:46 PM

Hi,

The Roud number for "Two Hearst/"Early, Early, by the Break of Day" appears to be Roud 60 and that should be changed since this is a different but related song.

I'm working on the US songs today. It appears that Jim Crow's [Dartmouth "Daddy" Rice's] "Radoo, Radoo" published in 1840 is the origin of "There is a Tavern in the Town" or at least it was reworked by F.J. Adams in 1891, as a Tin-Pan Alley/late minstrel type song.

Radoo means "Adieu" and is called an old Creole song or as sung by African Americans from South-America. More information about Radoo or the origin of this 1840 song is needed. Here's a link to the 1840 song:

https://books.google.com/books?id=SSJYAAAAcAAJ&pg=PT123&dq=%22Radoo+Radoo%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjf79b7oejRAhXGOSYKHWp6BOEQ6AE

From: "Jim Crow's Vagaries, Or, Black Flights of Fancy" by Jim Crow, 1840.

Radoo Radoo
(Adieu)

Radoo, radoo, kind friends, radoo, radooo, radoo,
And if I never more see you, you ,you,
I'll hang my harp on a weeping willow tree,
And may this world go well with you, you, you.

Shall I be bound, shall I be free, free, free,
And many is de girl dat don't love me, me, me,
Or shall I act a foolish part,
And die for de girl dat broke my heart, heart, heart.

Give me a chair and I'll sit down, down, down,
Give me a pen, I'll write it down, down, down,
And every word that I shall write,
A tear will trickle from my eye, eye, eye.

Radoo, radoo, kind friends, radoo, radooo, radoo,
And if I never more see you, you ,you,
I'll hang my harp on a weeping willow tree,
And may this world go well with you, you, you.

There are two stanzas (two and three) that are vaguely related to the Died for Love songs and their relatives ("Must I Go Bound.)" Steve sent me this but probably didn't know it's origin. It was reprinted after the success of "There is a Tavern."

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 29 Jan 17 - 04:57 PM

The 1840 date looks extremely suspect to me! Where is this 'Jim Crow's Vagaries? I have books on Rice and none of them mention this.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 29 Jan 17 - 05:16 PM

Hi,

Two corrections from last post: Title is "Radoo, Radoo, Radoo" and first and last verse the second radoo should have two "oo's" as radoo.

Adams based his verses on text from the "Died for Love" ballads and borrowed the form and chorus from "Radoo, Radoo, Radoo" a minstrel song attributed to Jim Crow [Dartmouth "Daddy" Rice] in "Jim Crow's Vagaries, Or, Black Flights of Fancy" by Jim Crow, 1840. Here's text of There is a Tavern in the Town" [original sheet music at Levy]:

There is a Tavern in the Town. Song and Chorus. The Season's Success. Words and music by F.J. Adams, 1891

There is a tavern in the town, in the town
And there my dear love sits him down, [sits him down]
And drinks his wine 'mid laughter free
And never, never thinks of me.

Chorus
Fare thee well, for I must leave thee
Do not let the parting grieve thee
And remember that the best of friends must part, [must part]
Adieu, adieu, kind friends adieu, adieu, adieu
I can no longer stay with you, stay with you
I'll hang my harp on a weeping willow tree
And may the world go well with thee.

He left me for a damsel dark, damsel dark
Each Friday night they used to spark, [used to spark]
And now my love once true to me
Takes that dark damsel on his knee

Oh! dig my grave both wide and deep, wide and deep
Put tombstones at my head and feet, head and feet
And on my breast carve a turtle dove
To signify I died of love.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 29 Jan 17 - 05:21 PM

Steve- I put the link to Radoo on that post above text. The date is 1840.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 29 Jan 17 - 05:29 PM

Although "Jim Crow's Vagaries, Or, Black Flights of Fancy" is attributed to Jim Crow [AKA Dartmouth "Daddy" Rice] that doesn't mean Rice wrote it or knew the songs in the book. None-the-less it's still attributed to Jim Crow as the author, dated 1840.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 29 Jan 17 - 05:39 PM

Steve:

Printed: Orlando Hodgson 111 Fleet Street, London

You should know he printed at that location between 1836-44.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 29 Jan 17 - 06:07 PM

Hi,

I don't have access to the the US printing by Turner & Fisher, New York & Philadelphia [no date given]

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 29 Jan 17 - 06:28 PM

Yes but Radoo is not in that songster. There are several songsters on that page and the one Radoo is in was printed much later by Fortey probably after my sheet music was published.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 29 Jan 17 - 07:48 PM

Hi Steve- if you click the link it takes you to the book, "Jim Crow's Vagaries, Or, Black Flights of Fancy" dated 1840.

According to several sources[] Radoo is a Creole word for "adieu" and in the 1888 book, "The Right Honourable" it was called "a genuine plantation song." According to the authors, Radoo was learned by Zenobia from a "Southern States woman" who heard it sung on plantation presumably before the Civil War. It was called a Civil-War song and was the African-American "attempt at adieu."

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 29 Jan 17 - 08:34 PM

OK,

I see now-- it was in W. S. Fortey's "The Popular Songster" and also in W. S. Fortey's "Yankee Barnum's Songster"- I didn't ck to see other editions were combined.

What did you think of the info in 1888 book, "The Right Honourable"?

Here's the link:

https://books.google.com/books?id=vFGcpvuOGdUC&pg=PA171&dq=%22The+Right+Honourable%22+1888+Radoo&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjSqObj3Oj

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 29 Jan 17 - 08:45 PM

Hi,

Even though "The Right Honourable" is fiction I suppose (the music is provided), it's still dated 1888 which is three years before Adam's 1891 sheet music.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II
From: Richie
Date: 29 Jan 17 - 10:14 PM

Hi,

Now I see Adam's sheet music which I downloaded is not the first edition and I suppose the presumed edition 1881 edition is missing so the info in the 1888 book means: Much to do about nothing :) So I answered my own question. Back to the drawing board.

Richie


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