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BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal

Jim Carroll 16 Feb 17 - 03:14 PM
Stu 16 Feb 17 - 02:36 PM
Jim Carroll 16 Feb 17 - 01:48 PM
Jim Carroll 16 Feb 17 - 01:43 PM
Big Al Whittle 16 Feb 17 - 01:11 PM
Jim Carroll 16 Feb 17 - 12:49 PM
akenaton 16 Feb 17 - 12:04 PM
Jim Carroll 16 Feb 17 - 12:00 PM
Jim Carroll 16 Feb 17 - 11:59 AM
Mr Red 16 Feb 17 - 11:59 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Feb 17 - 11:50 AM
Acme 16 Feb 17 - 10:52 AM
Acme 16 Feb 17 - 10:41 AM
akenaton 16 Feb 17 - 10:39 AM
Bill D 16 Feb 17 - 10:09 AM
akenaton 16 Feb 17 - 10:09 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Feb 17 - 09:55 AM
akenaton 16 Feb 17 - 09:49 AM
Stu 16 Feb 17 - 08:52 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Feb 17 - 07:54 AM
Raggytash 16 Feb 17 - 07:14 AM
Big Al Whittle 16 Feb 17 - 07:12 AM
akenaton 16 Feb 17 - 07:01 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Feb 17 - 06:47 AM
akenaton 16 Feb 17 - 06:41 AM
Steve Shaw 16 Feb 17 - 05:47 AM
akenaton 16 Feb 17 - 05:38 AM
Bill D 15 Feb 17 - 08:49 PM
Mr Red 15 Feb 17 - 05:00 PM
Donuel 15 Feb 17 - 04:15 PM
Bill D 15 Feb 17 - 12:59 PM
Bill D 15 Feb 17 - 12:48 PM
Jim Carroll 15 Feb 17 - 11:57 AM
akenaton 15 Feb 17 - 11:50 AM
Vashta Nerada 15 Feb 17 - 11:39 AM
Donuel 15 Feb 17 - 11:00 AM
Donuel 15 Feb 17 - 10:51 AM
Stu 15 Feb 17 - 10:21 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Feb 17 - 10:12 AM
Greg F. 15 Feb 17 - 09:59 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Feb 17 - 09:21 AM
Steve Shaw 15 Feb 17 - 09:16 AM
Steve Shaw 15 Feb 17 - 09:14 AM
Donuel 15 Feb 17 - 09:10 AM
Acme 15 Feb 17 - 09:08 AM
Steve Shaw 15 Feb 17 - 07:15 AM
Stu 15 Feb 17 - 06:35 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Feb 17 - 05:34 AM
akenaton 15 Feb 17 - 04:06 AM
akenaton 15 Feb 17 - 03:39 AM
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Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Feb 17 - 03:14 PM

" there is a huge section of society that no-one was listening to
There's a vast difference in recognising what people ssay in order to respond to it and using discontent to gain office and turn a democracy into a plutocracy Stu
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: Stu
Date: 16 Feb 17 - 02:36 PM

"But I think it is dishonourable to keep badmouthing all the people who voted for him, when the other side found them to be invisible."

This is the case both sides of the Atlantic and something I agree with Ake on; there is a huge section of society that no-one was listening to. It's easy to lump all these folk into a single mass of "deplorables", but that would be a mistake.

There is no sharing of wealth, zero hours contracts are becoming the norm and are difficult to live on and our sponging politicians have abandoned large swathes of the population: the tories never cared anyway and Labour has become a London-centric and out of touch with the country at large. People are distrustful of the media and all this plays into the hands of demagogues and alt-right 'patriots' like Farage and Trump, who find fertile ground to sow their poisonous, evil seeds of discontent and targeting foreigners and other helpless scapegoats.

The world is changing, and we need to be sure the process we've made on so many fronts in society are not pissed away because people want to give the toffs a kicking. Farage and Trump are shills for the establishment they claim to abhor, we need to find a way to engage ordinary people and develop new industries so we can make things again, backed by science and technology.


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Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Feb 17 - 01:48 PM

By the way Al, by describing Trump as "Trump is quite a lot bonkers", by your own logic, aren't you "badmouthing the electorate" by electing such a man?
Can't have it both ways
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Feb 17 - 01:43 PM

"But I think it is dishonourable to keep badmouthing all the people who voted for him,"
I am not Al
Trump won the day iby instigating fear and Xenophobic mistrust to a degree that has not been seen since the 1930s
Whatever their reason for voting, I have concentrated on what Trump has done and what he intends to do - not on those who voted for him and it is that I believe it
I get tired of pointing out that (a) The Nazis took the majority in the 1930s and (b)Trump was elected on a numerical minority.
It is down to those who support Trump to explain why, given what is happening.
The damage he isdoing is beyond question.
Another piece of news for his supporters to ignore
He has just announced that, rather than explaining his links with Russia he intends to prosecute those who have exposed his possibly criminal and certainly unconstitutional activities - that includes members of teh Security forces.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Feb 17 - 01:11 PM

Well no Jim.....

to be honest, its your side that's got to answer the questions.

Precisely how is a country that doesn't manufacture anything, doesn't dig up its mineral wealth, to support its wealthy citizens? of which there are an increasing number...

Real estate and gambling...we seem to have settled for that in this country. Although obviously the real estate is only worth anything in wealthy enclaves.

Trump has come up with an answer....protectionism. and a lot of people have bought it..... people who repeatedly get called stupid and klan followers on this thread and many like it.

The democrats could have could have come up with some answers or reassurances. The other republicans could have signified that they vaguely aware of the straits in which many parts of the country were in.

but answer came there none.

Make no mistake, Trump is quite a lot bonkers. I've never seem anyone stalk round the stage yelling that he was going to put his political opponent in jail before. I thought he was mad.

But I think it is dishonourable to keep badmouthing all the people who voted for him, when the other side found them to be invisible.


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Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Feb 17 - 12:49 PM

"now that the grown ups have left."
No answer is answer enough Ake
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Feb 17 - 12:04 PM

Yes have fun children ....now that the grown ups have left.


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Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Feb 17 - 12:00 PM

"bugger the face, the neck is already ............"
Nice one Mr.... (whoops)
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Feb 17 - 11:59 AM

Ake
The man is a proven misogynist
His policies have been ruled both racist and unconstitutional
His own party now has begun to have qualms about supporting him
He is attracting the dregs of American extremist right-wing society, from the Klan to scum like Ann Coulter
His links with Russia have been obvious since day one
His attitude towards global ecology are a nightmare
In the short time he has been in office he as offended nation after nation
His offensive loutish behaviour is immediately obvious the minute he appears in public
There has never been a Western world leader who has elicited such animosity in such a short time
Discuss!!
I don't expect you to, but at least we will have a clear picture of what it takes to be a Trumpite
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: Mr Red
Date: 16 Feb 17 - 11:59 AM

bugger the face, the neck is already ............


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Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Feb 17 - 11:50 AM

"Ahrrrgh!!! my ear drums are bustin'.....every things gone RED...."
And still you refuse to qualify your support for this fascist criminal
It's your feckin' face that should be going red - with shame for your cowardice
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: Acme
Date: 16 Feb 17 - 10:52 AM

I didn't see your remarks as I prepared mine, Bill. They may put a twist in the conversation, though by reading the character of participant discourse, it probably wouldn't last much longer anyway.


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Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: Acme
Date: 16 Feb 17 - 10:41 AM

Akenaton still can't tell the difference between the actual author of that 2015 essay and the 1957 material that was cited that has nothing to do with politics, it has to do with spectacle (used by the modern author who suggests politics is also spectacle) - it cracks me up when Ake says, for example, "Barthes speculates that many "ordinary people" view political elections as "theatre", entertainment."

Judd Legum wrote: "Recently, Rand Paul and others have taken to calling out Trump as an "entertainer," rather than a legitimate candidate. This is as effective to running into the middle of the ring during Wrestlemania and yelling: "This is all fake!" You are correct, but you will not be received well." I don't consider Rand Paul "ordinary."

Barthes isn't discussing these modern politics because he has been dead for many years, but he is making observations about types of human behavior that apply to today. Learning to read and think critically is difficult when there isn't a chink in your wall built to shut out new ideas. You try to twist Barthes or Legum to your way of seeing things without letting in any fresh air, new ideas.

Interesting also that while Trump is a philandering abuser of women, it's okay with Ake that he's in office. We wouldn't be having this discussion if Trump was gay, would we? I should caution you that many of those French philosophers were gay also, they were thinkers, accustomed to viewing the world from the margins, writing back to the center with their observations.


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Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Feb 17 - 10:39 AM

Oh come on Bill, The threads not about Trump per se Jim wants me to defend him, I'm not interested in that, rather what motivated so many to vote for him....the running battles are not my doing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Feb 17 - 10:09 AM

"...surely in such a situation trust should be a priority?"

That is essentially what Trump's spokespeople are telling us. "All this negativity is not helpful", they say."Give the man who was 'legally elected' a chance."

All we can do is look at the clearest accounts of data about him we can find and read his words and decide whether any of it seems *trustworthy*. The polls show that fewer are 'trusting' every day.

Here, all *I* can do is similar reading of various comments and asking myself how they relate to what went before and whether I can see any positive patterns. Right now, I see a few remarks from a few posters who try being overshadowed by a running battle between you, Ake, with your digressions, and Jim, who feels obligated to challenge you on HIS reading of those digressions.

I think we have reached the dead end that Steve Shaw predicted.. I did get some interesting commentary on the issue... and even the digressions are enlightening in their own way.

Ok, mods... shut 'er down. I'll let those who care PM me if they have anything monumental to add.


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Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Feb 17 - 10:09 AM

Ahrrrgh!!! my ear drums are bustin'.....every things gone RED....


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Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Feb 17 - 09:55 AM

Ake
Why do you refuse to defend Trump rather than prozletizing for him?
You have the facts - they are there for you to knock down
This is totally mindless cowardice

For that matter, why do none of his supportes defend his behaviour - perhaps because it is indefensible, maybe?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Feb 17 - 09:49 AM

Sorry Al ......no flies on you ....eh? :0)


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Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: Stu
Date: 16 Feb 17 - 08:52 AM

"the demise of the Church in society"

Thank god. The church is just another way of exerting control and influence over people and acts in it's own self-interest.


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Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Feb 17 - 07:54 AM

THE CHURCH AND TRUMP
I very much doubt if the buzzing in your ears is your conscience or humanity Ake
You are still not defending your support of Trump - none of you are.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: Raggytash
Date: 16 Feb 17 - 07:14 AM

Interesting that you include this Akenaton:- "the demise of the Church in society"

Would this be the same churches that have covered up the widespread abuse of young children over the course of many decades and are still doing so.


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Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Feb 17 - 07:12 AM

no...stop being crytic


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Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Feb 17 - 07:01 AM

Bill, I suppose you will assume that my last post is an example of my "changing the subject" half way through my post , but in reality it is still on topic as I am simply trying to give my opinion as to why Barthes is wrong in claiming that a need for "political theatre" explains Donal-John's appeal.

Additionally my concentration is being interrupted by a strange buzzing sound?.....Can you hear it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Feb 17 - 06:47 AM

Listening to an interesting discussion on radio this morning
Trump's team have now lost three leading members thanks to their Russian connection.
His support in the Republican Party appears to be crumbling and talk of him being impeached is in the air - it's even been suggested that his dealings with Russia are an imprisonable offence.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Feb 17 - 06:41 AM

Barthes speculates that many "ordinary people" view political elections as "theatre", entertainment.....but during my pretty long life I have seen and taken part in many such elections...the vast majority were won by the most boring and conventional candidate.
There are a few people who enjoy it when the political mask slips and the real self serving, unscrupulous, money grubber is exposed, but not a lot. Most are concerned about their lives, their jobs, their healthcare, the education of their children and other basic issues.

At the present time added to these worrisome issues are unregulated immigration, a decaying infrastructure, housing problems, drug abuse,
the demise of the Church in society, and a general familial and societal decline.

Perhaps the wisest thing would be to turn off the TV and examine real life.


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Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Feb 17 - 05:47 AM

And at this point, Bill...


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Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Feb 17 - 05:38 AM

"akenaton ... are you channeling Kellyanne Conway? I just saw a video by a champion debater who explained her system of confusing the public by beginning to answer a question, then deftly changing the subject.

Then later plead with OTHERS to follow MY wishes"

Bill, if you really desire an adult discussion, is unhelpful to impugn the motives of your debating partners, surely in such a situation trust should be a priority?

I notice a distinct bias in your stance in which you ignore all attempts to make this discussion a personal vendetta "Nazi insignia," "non person" "anti education" etc, yet take me to task over semantics.


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Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Feb 17 - 08:49 PM

...as in Political experts..

An 'ex' is a has-been, and a spurt is a drip under pressure.


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Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: Mr Red
Date: 15 Feb 17 - 05:00 PM

McLandress Coefficient a phrase for what we all know in the back of our minds - a description that could achieve critical mass in the glaring light of modern trumpery

and the coefficient for Obama - must be at least an hour.

politics - poly meaning many, ticks are bloodsucking insects. And we dun gotta a lotta politicks right now, y'all.


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Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Feb 17 - 04:15 PM

Bathmophobia , Really?

The next time you see Trump walk down the steps from Air Force one note the death grip on the railing.

Obama used to make a point of not touching the railings and sprinted down the steps.

Since I disavow such a thing as Trump appeal I can not comment on Barthes' explanation but there is a WWE Trump connection.


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Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Feb 17 - 12:59 PM

akenaton ... are you channeling Kellyanne Conway? I just saw a video by a champion debater who explained her system of confusing the public by beginning to answer a question, then deftly changing the subject.

You rehash some of your themes above:
From: akenaton -
Date: 15 Feb 17 - 03:39 AM

Then later plead with OTHERS to follow MY wishes.

This is not a topic where anyone can be 'right' about reading motives or pontificating on historical truths... it is just an attempt to relate various news items to their conceptual relevance.


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Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Feb 17 - 12:48 PM

Passing by... for the moment... 'most' of the posts since I gave up last night, I want to expand on Acme':

"Trump just can't do it. He doesn't understand how to focus on others, he can't tell a good story, he can't stay on script because his thoughts always come racing back to himself. "

I read many years ago an article in Esquire magazine from Oct. 1962. It referenced an apocryphal professor..."It purports to describe six breakthroughs in behavioral science by a (fictitious) Professor Herschel McLandress, including McLandress's discovery of the McLandress Coefficient, the average time that a person goes without thinking of himself or herself, which (he wrote) reflects the intensity of the person's identification with his own personality."

This was measured by statistics from their writing, speeches, conversations... etc.
Some people got 'ratings' of 1-4 hours...(I think the article rated Ghandi at a couple of hours) actors, often in minutes. Nixon supposedly was about 3 seconds. Reviews of Galbraith's book were not always sure how seriously he took his own creation... but it seems to me it was a semi-humorous attempt to make a serious point about how to evaluate the basic ways 'important' people present themselves to the world. I'd bet McLandress/Galbraith would have had some fun with Trump.

Read articles here:

http://www.thecrimson.com/article/1963/12/4/prof-mclandress-ptake-an-ibm-machine/

http://isaac.blogs.com/isaac_laquedem/2006/04/john_kenneth_ga.html

https://books.google.com/books?id=cTvLmq8GSw0C&pg=PA160&lpg=PA160&dq=mcClandress+coefficient&source=bl&ots=Kc2GXpfArM&sig=lCi2Iu3cQV23AhHyzXdFw-wL2Dk&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiq4POFzZLSAhVDzFQKHbPRB24Q6AEISTAJ#v=onepage&q=mcClandress%20coefficient&f=false

That last one is a link to a couple of paragraphs in Google Books.

A search for "McLandress coefficient will find others.


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Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Feb 17 - 11:57 AM

"We are supposed to be interpreting Barthes proposition, not indulging in a weepfest over the result of the election."
As you refuse to respond to anything that is said it is none of your business what we are supposed to be discussions.
If you wish to manipulate this discussion have the good grace to participate in it - or is this another glimpse of Trump's 'Big Brother' Brave New World, censored from above?
In other words, put up or shut up
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Feb 17 - 11:50 AM

We are supposed to be interpreting Barthes proposition, not indulging in a weepfest over the result of the election.
Your or my opinion of Donal-John is of no interest to Bill who sees these matters from a higher level.
Please stick to the subject.


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Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: Vashta Nerada
Date: 15 Feb 17 - 11:39 AM

Excellent points, Jim and Donuel. From Jim's link:

A few examples: After a photo emerged of Hillary Clinton being escorted up some steps, Trump spent weeks on the campaign trail taking shots at the Democrat's perceived health woes, even though he himself is said to suffer from bathmophobia, or a crippling fear of steps and slopes. His childish nicknames for his political foes—"Little" Marco Rubio, "Lyin'" Ted Cruz,' "Crooked" Hillary"—are words that have been used to describe Trump for decades, while his narrative of a corrupt Clinton Foundation more closely resembled his own. Even his continued assault on CNN, which President Trump has labeled "fake news," appears remarkably disingenuous when you consider that CNN chief Jeff Zucker and Trump are longtime friends (Zucker hired him for The Apprentice, and he reportedly keeps a framed Trump tweet in his office), and the cable news network played a substantial role in helping Trump get elected POTUS—from round-the-clock coverage of his rallies, at times airing just an empty podium, to its army of pro-Trump campaign propagandists, including: Kellyanne Conway, Scottie Nell Hughes, Kayleigh McEnany, Jeffrey Lord, and Corey Lewandowski, who remained on Trump's payroll for the lion's share of his CNN tenure.

It's like my dog, who telegraphs any time he did something wrong. Sometimes he meets me at the door with that behavior before I even see the destruction, but Trump's tweets are meant to hide his weakness by accusing others instead and try to deflect anything that might come his way later. In this way, my dog has more moral fibre and character than Donald Trump.


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Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Feb 17 - 11:00 AM

Jim, "In Trump's case, he has a troubling tendency to launch attacks at targets that are actually veiled criticisms of himself. It's a genius strategy, really: a preemptive strike that not only removes the card from his opponent's deck, but also accuses them of the very thing that he is guilty of." I have pointed out this strategy here for 10 years.

This political tactic goes back hundreds of years.
If anything Trump overdoes the perverse prevarication of the bigger the lie the more believable it becomes. His whoppers are so huge they don't work except for misdirection and distraction.


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Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Feb 17 - 10:51 AM

The General Flynn thing is just a crack that in time will become a crevasse and then a canyon for traitors.

When listening to Senators who are briefed by our intelligence agencies, listen for the admission that General Flynn's crime is only the beginning, only the tip of the iceberg. This is not just about Russian Hacking the DNC to corrupt an election, it is not just about a plot to eliminate sanctions quid quo pro. I have told you what it is but it seems no one believed me. (which is fine by me)

Trump has lived by the deal and will die by the deal.

Then as Mr. Red revealed, The Pence Party will ensue, to the distress of the country and my personal dismay.


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Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: Stu
Date: 15 Feb 17 - 10:21 AM

"I can give innumerable examples of education morphed into propaganda from ancient times right up to the moment of now."

Of course, but Ake's post is inferring this is happening now, in the UK and US. This might well be true, but I am not sure what he means by 'education' for instance, which could mean anything from teaching pre-school kids to leaflets in the doctors to a zillion other things. I'm trying to get past the sweeping generalisation to see if there is any substance to such a claim, and if so let's see it.

There's no doubt about one thing, we're loosing our way in the west for sure.


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Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Feb 17 - 10:12 AM

This in an analyisis of Trump's take on truth
HOW TRUMP CREATES HIS OWN REALITY
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Feb 17 - 09:59 AM

One doesn't need old-style "propaganda" in the brave new Trumpist world of "alternative facts", outright lies & fact-averse BS eagerly lapped up by a brain-dead electorate.

See also

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/feb/15/conspiracy-laden-blog-no-place-white-house-press-corps


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Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Feb 17 - 09:21 AM

Ireland's media catching up here.
It has been announced that Trump was fully aware of the negotiations between his supporters and Russia prior to his inauguration - Don the don's tweets have gone ballistic denying the charges and denigrating the Security Services
If Flynn has gone can Trump be far behind?
Wishful thinking maybe
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Feb 17 - 09:16 AM

Used as a cover for propaganda is what I meant.


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Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Feb 17 - 09:14 AM

Education morphed into propaganda is not the same thing as education used as propaganda. In fact, true education can't be used as propaganda. Half-truths, bigotry, misrepresentations and downright lies are the sine qua non of propaganda. Never the truth that real education seeks to elicit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Feb 17 - 09:10 AM

Stu, Ake has improved his rhetorical game. I knew he could.

I can give innumerable examples of education morphed into propaganda from ancient times right up to the moment of now.

Be that as it may I would like to clear up the conceptual interplay of psychology in society and politics. It can be used for any damn thing. It can be a tool of fear, it can be used predictively, it can be used forensically, it can be high or low brow. The paradigm of psychology is that it is a descriptive tool for the motivation, manipulation and categorical understanding of the mind of man.

With few exceptions psychology is closer to philosophy than it is to neural science.

If Trump has an appeal I would assume it is with like minded individuals who see a benefit in bullying, strategic lying, narcissism and unbound greed. In their mind those same traits would be called, forceful, spinning, self confidence and great financial ambition.

I think most of the folks here assume Trump has great appeal when in fact he does not.

.....................

I give a heartfelt like for the ideas of Vasta, Stu, Red, Bill, Greg, dmcG, acme, Jim and even Ake, but for different reasons.
Al, if you knew more civil servants you would know more about their moral rectitude, which is not part of the problem.


The real game changer to come is the selling out to Mr. Putin by Donald Trump for $. Ideas of 'appeal' will be seen by all in a new light. There will be back peddling, running for cover, changing of stripes, walking back and lots of egg on faces.


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Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: Acme
Date: 15 Feb 17 - 09:08 AM

The topic has again (as he wished) returned to Ake's world view. Another thread trashed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Feb 17 - 07:15 AM

Propaganda works best when education is in deficit. That's exactly what the power-hungry prefer.


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Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: Stu
Date: 15 Feb 17 - 06:35 AM

"Unfortunately "Education" is often used as a cover for propaganda."

This is a bold assertion, and I'd like to:

a) See it refined to be more specific.

b) Provide proven examples of that show education being used as propaganda.

I've never come across education being used as propaganda, so want to know where this is happening.


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Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Feb 17 - 05:34 AM

This has become little more than a series of adverts on behalf of an extremist right wing President who has used a foreign power to gain office
Ake refuses to respond to the facts of Trump's extremely dangerous rule, instead he describes education as "propaganda"
The world has been here before - hence the flags
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Feb 17 - 04:06 AM

B W L...After an election the losing side always looks for an excuse as to why they lost. Barthes' proposition is IMO a sort of excuse, as DMcG said ..an "easy" answer. I agree the situation is extremely complicated, but the populist movement in Western society....the reaction to Neo-liberalism AND to social "liberalism" is the main reason the political elite are being rejected.


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Subject: RE: BS: Barthes: explanation of Trump's appeal
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Feb 17 - 03:39 AM

"The altruistic political movement today is multicultural, has educated men in conjunction with lots of women and previously marginalized minorities; it is educated, and I suspect you're as dismissive of education as you are liberal politics."

You suspect wrongly again Vashta, education is vitally important in the construction of a new type of society, Unfortunately "Education" is often used as a cover for propaganda.

I have never seen such a clear example in my life, of the political elite banding together to protect their privileged position, it is utterly shameless and will lead to absolute outrage.


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