Lyrics & Knowledge Personal Pages Record Shop Auction Links Radio & Media Kids Membership Help
The Mudcat Cafesonny

Post to this Thread - Printer Friendly - Home
Page: [1] [2] [3] [4]


BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians

Teribus 29 Jun 17 - 11:44 AM
Jim Carroll 29 Jun 17 - 11:34 AM
Teribus 29 Jun 17 - 11:04 AM
Teribus 29 Jun 17 - 10:55 AM
Jim Carroll 29 Jun 17 - 09:46 AM
Jim Carroll 29 Jun 17 - 09:36 AM
Teribus 29 Jun 17 - 06:37 AM
Jim Carroll 29 Jun 17 - 05:00 AM
Teribus 29 Jun 17 - 04:21 AM
Jim Carroll 29 Jun 17 - 04:04 AM
Teribus 29 Jun 17 - 03:48 AM
Jim Carroll 29 Jun 17 - 03:25 AM
Teribus 29 Jun 17 - 03:06 AM
Jim Carroll 28 Jun 17 - 07:32 PM
Teribus 28 Jun 17 - 05:51 PM
robomatic 28 Jun 17 - 05:19 PM
Jim Carroll 28 Jun 17 - 03:05 PM
Teribus 28 Jun 17 - 01:10 PM
Jim Carroll 28 Jun 17 - 07:42 AM
Jim Carroll 28 Jun 17 - 07:15 AM
Teribus 28 Jun 17 - 06:49 AM
Jim Carroll 28 Jun 17 - 06:10 AM
Teribus 28 Jun 17 - 05:23 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Jun 17 - 08:07 PM
Donuel 27 Jun 17 - 10:38 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Jun 17 - 10:16 AM
Teribus 27 Jun 17 - 10:05 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Jun 17 - 05:44 AM
Teribus 27 Jun 17 - 05:03 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Jun 17 - 02:54 AM
robomatic 26 Jun 17 - 11:26 PM
Jim Carroll 26 Jun 17 - 07:33 PM
robomatic 26 Jun 17 - 05:16 PM
Jim Carroll 26 Jun 17 - 01:54 PM
robomatic 26 Jun 17 - 01:15 PM
Jim Carroll 26 Jun 17 - 09:57 AM
Teribus 26 Jun 17 - 09:22 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Jun 17 - 07:36 AM
Teribus 26 Jun 17 - 07:12 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Jun 17 - 06:09 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Jun 17 - 04:50 AM
Teribus 26 Jun 17 - 04:45 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Jun 17 - 03:58 AM
robomatic 25 Jun 17 - 03:50 PM
Jim Carroll 25 Jun 17 - 03:38 AM
robomatic 24 Jun 17 - 07:26 PM
Teribus 24 Jun 17 - 06:39 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Jun 17 - 06:38 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Jun 17 - 04:39 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Jun 17 - 04:38 AM
Lyrics & Knowledge Search [Advanced]
DT  Forum
Sort (Forum) by:relevance date
DT Lyrics:






Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Jun 17 - 11:44 AM

Ah Jom so:

1: NO AMNESTY for former members of the British Armed Forces

2: NO BRIBE paid to the DUP.

Thanks for clarifying that.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jun 17 - 11:34 AM

"Have I Jom? That is pretty much a very broad and all encompassing statement without one shred of back-up."
Want me to put it up again - it's on this thread
Oh - there it is in your own postings
"I for one, and am sure many others, would welcome it -"
Don't care who it applies to - if they are guilty of acts of terrorism they should be tried for them and , if found guilty, punished
It is totally immaterial how the terrorists are treated - they are not licences to carry guns and act in our name
You have supported allowing soldiers who commit atrocities to go untried and unpunished - enough for me.
The rest is bullshit waffle
The DUP have blackmailed a bung from Britain that comes from taxpayers money
It will be taken from the coffers whether that is needed as a proiority or not
May said there was no money tree to provide sufficient funding for hospitals, schools.... whoever needs them yet hey-presto - one sprouts up overnight to pay the bribe
If an emergency had suddenly spring up to make Northern Ireland a priority thetre might have been a justification
AS IT WAS - IT WAS PAID TO GIVE A POLITICAL PARTY A MAJORITY IN PARLIAMENT - NOTHING MORE - FUCK THE NATION'S HEALTH OR EDUCATION
What did you say about Corbyn bribing the electorate?
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Jun 17 - 11:04 AM

Oh Jom just one more thing to add to your humiliation - If you want to check the £1 billion "bung" you keep referring to goes to Northern Ireland - IT DOES NOT go to the DUP - they do not get paid a penny.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Jun 17 - 10:55 AM

"you've already admitted that you fully support not punishing the military for their crimes"

Have I Jom? That is pretty much a very broad and all encompassing statement without one shred of back-up.

Where in the Conservative/DUP agreement does it state:

"One of the conditions imposed on Britain by the DUP is that the Security Forces do not have to face trials for crimes they are accused of committing" - Jim Carroll - 27 Jun 17 - 05:44 AM

What I have said is as follows:

"If what you say is true about the conditions of the deal (I have not seen or heard that reported) I for one, and am sure many others, would welcome it - Never could quite work out why it was only the "nationalist" paramilitaries "sins" that could be, or had to be forgiven and forgotten in order for there to be a "Peace Process" - so now it is slate wiped clean - equal treatment under the law for all." - Teribus - 27 Jun 17 - 10:05 AM

Note the qualifications listed there Carroll - coupled with the fact that it only applies to former members of the Security Forces deployed in Northern Ireland during "the troubles". You yourself changed your tune from the blanket statement you made quoted above to:

"THE LONG AND SHORT OF THIS IS MAY HAS BUNGED A TERRORIST IMPLICATED PARTY A £BILLION OF TAXPAYERS MONEY AND DONE A DEAL THAT ENSURES THAT MEMBERS OF THE MILITARY WHO WERE QUITE LIKELY INVOLVED IN MASS MURDER, TORTURE AND COLLUSION WITH TERRORISTS WILL NEVER HAVE TO STAND TRIALS FOR THEIR CRIMES" - Jim Carroll - 28 Jun 17 - 07:32 PM - Here Carroll is most certainly talking about the Troubles.

Either way he has not provided one link to the source of this condition.

This "condition" of Jom's is just more Jim Carroll "Made-Up-Shit"

IF ANYONE DOUBTS THIS -

Here is the text of the Conservative-DUP deal in full:
 
In accordance with our shared objectives for strengthening and enhancing the Union, security, prosperity and an exit from the European Union that benefits all parts of the United Kingdom, this letter sets out how the confidence and supply agreement reached between the Conservative Party and Democratic Unionist Party (DUP) will operate to deliver a stable government in the United Kingdom's national interest for the duration of this Parliament.

Confidence and supply agreement in the UK Parliament:

The DUP agrees to support the Government on all motions of confidence; and on the Queen's speech; the Budget; finance bills; money bills, supply and appropriation legislation and Estimates.
In line with the parties' shared priorities for negotiating a successful exit from the European Union and protecting the country in the light of recent terrorist attacks, the DUP also agrees to support the Government on legislation pertaining to the United Kingdom's exit from the European Union; and legislation pertaining to national security.

Support on other matters will be agreed on a case by case basis.

The DUP agrees to support the Government in votes in the UK Parliament, in line with this agreement.

Working arrangements:

In furtherance of these arrangements, the Government and the DUP will work together to ensure the necessary support can be established by both parties to fulfil these arrangements. A co-ordination committee will be convened for this purpose, chaired by the Government. The parties will agree the modus operandi of this committee. The Northern Ireland Secretary will not sit on this committee.

Policy agreement:

Both parties have agreed that there will be no change to the Pensions Triple Lock and the universal nature of the Winter Fuel Payment.

The parties agree to meet the Nato commitment of spending 2% of GDP on the armed forces. Both parties are committed to the Armed Forces Covenant and to its implementation throughout the United Kingdom.

Both parties agreed to work together to consider options to support the highly successful reserve forces in Northern Ireland.

The parties recognise the importance of the agriculture sector to Northern Ireland and the opportunities for growth that exist. Agriculture will be a critical policy areas during the EU exit negotiations.

The parties agree to continue to commit the same cash total in funds for farm support until the end of the Parliament. Further discussions will take place on the future framework for farming support.

Devolved government in Northern Ireland:

As set out in its General Election manifesto, the Conservative Party will never be neutral in expressing its support for the Union. As the UK Government we believe that Northern Ireland's future is best served within a stronger United Kingdom. We will always uphold the consent principle and the democratic wishes of the people of Northern Ireland. The Conservative Party will never countenance any constitutional arrangements that are incompatible with the consent principle.

Both parties will adhere fully to their respective commitments set out in the Belfast Agreement and its successors. The Conservative Party reiterates its steadfast support for the Belfast Agreement and its successors and, as the UK Government, will continue to govern in the interests of all parts of the community in Northern Ireland. The UK Government will continue to support close co-operations with the Irish Government and work with them in accordance with the Belfast Agreement and subsequent agreements, while recognising that ultimate responsibility for political stability in Northern Ireland rests with the UK Government.

The DUP recognises the need for early restoration of inclusive and stable devolved government in Northern Ireland and affirms its commitment to agreeing the formation of an Executive. The UK Government will continue to work with the Northern Ireland parties and the Irish Government towards this objective, in full accordance with the three-stranded approach.

Both parties agree on the need to recognise the unique circumstances of Northern Ireland's history and what effect this has had on the economy and people from all parts of the community. Both parties agree the need for additional support for Northern Ireland as set out in the annex to this agreement.

It is the joint desire of both parties that the elements and provisions of this agreement will play a positive role in the efforts to re-establish devolved government for the benefit of all the people of Northern Ireland.

The DUP will have no involvement in the UK Government's role in political talks in Northern Ireland. It will continue to participate as a party entitled to form part of an Executive following the last Assembly election, as the other parties do.

Duration of agreement:

The agreement reached will remain in place for the length of the Parliament, and can be reviewed by the mutual consent of both parties. After each parliamentary session, both parties will review the aims, principles and implementation of this agreement.

Signed:

The Rt Hon Gavin Williamson CBE MP, Conservative and Unionist Party

The Rt Hon Sir Jeffrey Donaldson MP, Democratic Unionist Party.


No mention at all about any amnesty for former members of the British Forces who served in Northern Ireland - like wot Jom claims - which does very emphatically make it "More Carroll Made-Up-Shit
.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jun 17 - 09:46 AM

Ignore first line - multi tasking with work I'm trying to do
What the **** are you arguing about anyway - you've already admitted that you fully support not punishing the military for their crimes
That's what makes you the fascist you are
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jun 17 - 09:36 AM

"Lord Beicham"
If the miltary are not to be tried for the crimes they are alleged ttto have committed they are not answerable to national or international laws
If you say that British are not answerable for thir actions then Britain is a militaristic fascist state.
The shooting down of unarmed demonstrators is a crime - national and international - in any civilised country it needs to be triabele and punishable
May had leapfrogged over that and absolved the perpetrators from both trial and punishment
Your fascist mindest defends that - no doubt you will continue to do so.
If we decide to include the annotations in the booklet, "Young Beichan or Lord Bateman needs to stay as it is because they aer the spellings Child used
Thanks again
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Jun 17 - 06:37 AM

One thing I have noticed Carroll - you have singularly failed to put up any evidence at all that any such agreement to place "the military unanswerable to national and international law" - YOUR WORDS JOM.

Fact is that no such deal exists, mind you, you did change it from it being an amnesty for former members of the armed forces and security services for past deeds during "The Troubles" - which is totally different from what you stated above - I SAY AGAIN - Members of the armed forces of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland are still answerable under law for their actions

NOW IF YOU DISPUTE THAT CARROLL - GIVE US THE REFERENCE.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jun 17 - 05:00 AM

"our armed forces still are subject to rule of law"
You have just proposed putting thm above that law you stupid little man
The law says they are answerable to their actions - May has just sold that out to a terrorist linked Party
You hysterical bullying bluster makes it clear that you realise you have just placed your foot squarely in your mouth by supporting that
Cat out of the bag, big time here
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Jun 17 - 04:21 AM

As far as I am aware my tooth-sucking, whining scouser, our armed forces still are subject to rule of law. To-date I have not read anything that supports your claims with regard to immunity from prosecution for former members of our armed forces - apart from in your rantings that is.

On that subject what I have said quite clearly is that if such an amnesty has been announced then I welcome it as it will mean that all sides are being treated equally in the eyes of the law in relation to the events in Northern Ireland and elsewhere between 1969 and 1997. Or are you really too bloody thick to understand that?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jun 17 - 04:04 AM

"Jom reaches out for another "..."
Not anther - I've always thought you a fascist - your bullying and strutting makeds you a stereotype
You've just confirmed that in your own words by supporting the practice of a party using taxpayers money in order to stay in power and by placing the military unanswerable to national and international law
A stereotype, if ever there was one
Throw in your racism and your contempt for the less well of and you are really the Full Monty
You are everything Charlie Chaplin dreamed up in 'The Great Dictator' - a sad, impotent little man trying to straddle the world
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Jun 17 - 03:48 AM

How predictable - Jom reaches out for another ".....ist" to throw at someone who dares to disagree with him.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jun 17 - 03:25 AM

A deal with a terrorist linked Party paid for with taxpayers money to hold off a general election - yup- that sounds your sort o democracy
Throw in an army that is not constrained by human rights considerations or national and international laws, as you have sugessted, and what have you got?
A Reich that will last a thousand years
I'm sure that you are quite happy with that
You are now a classic, self declared fascist - never doubted it for a minute
Why didn't you say that in the first place so we all knew where we stood
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Jun 17 - 03:06 AM

Quite happy with the deal that has been struck Jom - It holds off any prospect of another General Election and removes any chance of Corbyn & Co getting into power as I firmly believe they would be disastrous for our country and would cost us a damned sight more than £1 billion.

See the Queen's Speech vote got through Jom.

In the article about that vote there was mention of a Tory "Dementia Tax" that had been scrapped. On this I have a question. As I understand it, and please correct me if I am wrong, at the moment:

If I should suffer from dementia and require residential care my family and I have pay directly for my care through disposal of savings and assets until I am left with £23,500 at which point the State then starts to contribute. Of course if on the other hand I have been a complete and utter wastrel all my life the state jumps in and pays everything from day one.

What the Conservatives proposed was that as with the complete and utter wastrel above the State pays from day one but costs are noted and that account must be settled from the proceeds of my estate when I die. This means that family members can still live in my home while I am alive. Under this scheme the value of savings I am allowed to keep is raised from the current £23,500 to £100,000.

Now just how the F**K is that a TAX.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jun 17 - 07:32 PM

"Jom, refer us to the posts where you condemned Blair for doing his deal with terrorists"
Ignoring your childishly insecure "Jom" for a second (it's getting a little like explaining how to cross the road to a five year old) - you guide me to one kind word I have ever said about Blair, who I have always regarded as a political thug who betrayed the Labour Party as a career move.
Immaterial anyway
Your attempts to absolve Blunderwoman from spending a Billion of the taxpayers money and colluding with a party who has known terrorist connections is not unlike a rat running around with it's tail nailed to the floor - highly enjoyable, I'm ashamed to say.
May answers for her own actions whatever her predecessors may have done.
Western "democratic" politics have always colluded with terrorist and extremist states when it suits them - from their appeasement of "Herr Hitler's" Nazis, right through Salazar, Batista Marshall Kee, The Greek Colonels, Pappa Doc, the Contras..... you name them, they were our leaders' friends.
Thatcher articulated it beautifully when she worked her knickers off to stpo mass-murderer Pinochet being tried for his crimes - she described him as a hero of democracy and those wishing to bring him to trial as "running a police state"
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/tories-have-forgotten-that-thatcher-wasnt-just-a-terrorist-sympathiser-but-close-friends-with-one-10507850.html
Britain props up some of the worst dictators on the planet by selling them arms and equipment and has been known to sell both sides weapons in uprisings such as The Arab Spring
THE LONG AND SHORT OF THIS IS MAY HAS BUNGED A TERRORIST IMPLICATED PARTY A £BILLION OF TAXPAYERS MONEY AND DONE A DEAL THAT ENSURES THAT MEMBERS OF THE MILITARY WHO WERE QUITE LIKELY INVOLVED IN MASS MURDER, TORTURE AND COLLUSION WITH TERRORISTS WILL NEVER HAVE TO STAND TRIALS FOR THEIR CRIMES
Game, set and match, I think
Now - a few more, "Joms", a bit more goosestepping and I think we're done here - don't you?
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Jun 17 - 05:51 PM

Jom, refer us to the posts where you condemned Blair for doing his deal with terrorists in which murderers and torturers were protected from facing due legal process and many more released from jail. My bet is that there aren't any.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: robomatic
Date: 28 Jun 17 - 05:19 PM

You know the other horrible thing about Communist countries?

Couldn't make a decent roll of toilet paper. I once received a letter written on Soviet toilet paper. The exact same consistency and shade as the cheap paper we called 'math paper' in the States (for working sums on). No absorbency and no 'grip'. Blighters deserved to go down for that alone!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jun 17 - 03:05 PM

"It does however create a precedent Jom, and that is what I stated."
No it does not
Thesae were both deals done by conservative Governments - only one called itself "new Labour"
You are one of those who attempted to catigate Corbyn for his supposed support of the IRA - yet here you are defending May doing a deal with this load of shit
Hypocritical Blackshirt prick
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Jun 17 - 01:10 PM

"One deal with terrorists doesn't make another any less wrong
There is no acceptable precedent for dealing with terrorists or protecting murderers and torturers from trail
I consider Blair a war criminal - as I do May"


It does however create a precedent Jom, and that is what I stated.

By the bye Jom, can you refer us to the posts where you condemned Blair for doing his deal with terrorists in which murderers and torturers were protected from facing due legal process and many more released from jail. My bet is that there aren't any. You only burst into print when it involves Britain and a Conservative Government - as I stated previously in my description of you and your posting history below the line - Racist, biased, bigoted and Anglophobic. That precedent created by Blair also involved acceptance and active support from the Government of the Republic of Ireland IIRC.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jun 17 - 07:42 AM

Incidentally
Blair made a name for himself by abandoning Labour principles and taking on those of the Tories - New Labour
May's deal with terrorist supporters are an confirmation of how close he got
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jun 17 - 07:15 AM

"Blair did a deal with terrorist infected politicians"
One deal with terrorists doesn't make another any less wrong
There is no acceptable precedent for dealing with terrorists or protecting murderers and torturers from trail
I consider Blair a war criminal - as I do May
You condemn one and support another
A hypocrite as well as a defender of terrorism - two for the price of one
" Jom "
Two "Joms" in a short posting - how insecure is that?
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Jun 17 - 06:49 AM

"May has done a deal with terrorist infected politicians and bunged them with £Billion of taxpayers money to pay the ransom
They have also agreed not to put possible criminals on trial
How low can you sink a country?" - bleats Jom


The precedent:

Blair did a deal with terrorist infected politicians and bunged them taxpayers money to pay the ransom.
Blair also agreed not to put confirmed criminals on trial and released convicted murders from prison.

So you tell me Jom - "How low can you sink a country?" - obviously not as low as Blair sank it.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jun 17 - 06:10 AM

"Oh dear Jom, s"
What you mean to say is that you reserve the right of silence for fear it might incriminate you
Predictable response that pops up whenever you are in a corner
May has done a deal with terrorist infected politicians and bunged them with £Billion of taxpayers money to pay the ransom
They have also agreed not to put possible criminals on trial
How low can you sink a country?
Even the Yanks were forced to put Lieutenant Calley on trial
Sick as it gets
The leader of the Party May has done a deal with is under scrutiny the misuse of public money, known over here as "the cash for ash" scandal
Lovely one-line letter in the Iris Times this morning reads; "a fresh stash of cash to wash the ash off The Sash"
May has dragged Britain down to gutter-level with this deal, she has humiliated her supporters (like yourself) and she is now abandoning natural justice and international law by doing a deal with terrorist linked politicians and refusing to try killers
Oh dear indeed
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Jun 17 - 05:23 AM

Oh dear Jom, someone disagrees with your spittle-flecked invective and you automatically reach for your lists of ".........ists" to accuse them of - pathetic.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jun 17 - 08:07 PM

"I for one, and am sure many others, would welcome it"
Someone suggests that empty properties can be used to house those who have been made homeless in a horrific fire and the rabid right are up on their chairs telling us it can't be done because of the law
The Government does a deal with a terrorist involved political party which includes a clause which says British soldiers who have co-operated with terrorists, used torture and massacred unarmed civilians should not be aked to answer for their crimes and neither national or International law or human rights conventions aren't worth shit!!!
No need to ask which side you are on Teribus - don't forget to polish your jackboots before you go to bed.
Any State which places its armed forces above national and international law is well along the road to being described as "fascist"
This is the deal Blunderwoman has signed Britain up to and this is what the right-wing dregs are supporting
You're not even good at hiding your hypocrisy
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Donuel
Date: 27 Jun 17 - 10:38 AM

You are all correct under the criterion that each of you choose/assume.
Who knew that waterboarding makes good dinner guests? Why are we not waterboarding our kids. Its better than spanking.

Being rewarded for the facts you represent is a rare occurrence in theses BS blogs because only your chosen opponents read them, or not.

Respect is not for sale here so owning the glory of winning the BS game awards no Trophy unless you reward yourself, like Trump.

Truth is least rewarded of all. It is to be avoided or we fall silent overwhelmed by the futility and meaninglessness of changing the purpose of the real owners of the world. They do not care about you or defenseless civilians , they just want more. Yes there are token rescues of humanity but everything goes back to owner normalcy in a month or two. The rich do not care about you or trivial mass murder .

They own the lobbyists who write the laws buy the representatives direct the government, turn the playing field into a funnel into their financial stomach and use stupid leaders to do all their bidding.

Government by corporation is fascism and we the people have endured a fascist system by kings, religions and immortal corporations throughout all of history. The US was a great experiment but it is gone now replaced by the loop hole, workarounds and blatant power grabs by the rich owners, who shall not be named.

There were brief exceptions during and after the FDR years but that is over. Watch and remember the next great super disaster that inspires a call to put things right afterwards and how the afflicted victims will get crewed in the end. The owners do not care about them or you. Only illusion of saving the masses is needed to insure the devotion of obedient workers without the knowledge or education to serve the rigged game of the rich. Owners like defenseless citizens who believe that the 2nd amendment gives them a running chance.
Its laughable.

If you do not believe this just look, you have Trump and Putin. The owners are not scared, they are pleased, as reflected in the stock market.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jun 17 - 10:16 AM

You really don't get it, do you?
Your consistently moronic attempts to bully and bluster your way past facts you can't deal with in adult terms shows you for the pathetic moron you are
AS for using typos - beyond belief
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Jun 17 - 10:05 AM

What's a "diseher-upper" when it's at home Jom? I'll send the cat over should I? It would appear to know it's way round the keyboard better than you and is honest enough to know that it really does only type shit.

If what you say is true about the conditions of the deal (I have not seen or heard that reported) I for one, and am sure many others, would welcome it - Never could quite work out why it was only the "nationalist" paramilitaries "sins" that could be, or had to be forgiven and forgotten in order for there to be a "Peace Process" - so now it is slate wiped clean - equal treatment under the law for all.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jun 17 - 05:44 AM

More Joms - more insecurity
WATERBOARDING is OK then - nice to hear it
Why on earth should they waterboard a ships grease-diseher-upper
Nice twist on Britain's "ruling elite" stye of democracy yesterday.
In order to have an overall majority, the Tory Government had done a deal with the DUP (linked to Loyalist terrorism) where it had committed £Billion of the taxpayers money to Northern Ireland in order to gain a majority - bet they don't declare that on their election expenses
One of the conditions imposed on Britain by the DUP is that the Security Forces do not have to face trials for crimes they are accused of committing
Democratic Britain is now dancing to the tune of a Party implicated in terrorism who is demanding state terrorist ativities are immune from prosecution
Rule Britannia eh?
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Jun 17 - 05:03 AM

"So one atrocity cancels another out"???

What atrocity Jom? How many people were picked up, interrogated and released, or arrested, tried, imprisoned and then ultimately released by the Police in Northern Ireland? How many went through the same process at the hands of the paramilitaries? They were not simply released they ended up either maimed and crippled for life or were murdered and "disappeared". Comparing apples to oranges Carroll and you damn well know it.

"Waterboarding"? If you want evidence of that Jom - I was "waterboarded" and subjected to enhanced interrogation techniques on at least three occasions by people I later sat down and ate dinner with, by people in the same service as I was in - it was regarded as an essential part of training. Guess what Jom? I survived it, which should not really come as any great surprise considering that the object of the lesson is to extract information which you cannot get from a corpse. In Mrs Jean McConville's case there was not one shred of evidence against her, she was first beaten up, later beaten once again and abducted. She was then subjected to torture and mutilation (Her fingers cut off to relieve her of four rings - one of which some "hero" stole and probably used as a Christmas present) and then summary execution with her body being hidden and buried in secret in the hope it would never be found (Mrs Jean McConville's remains were uncovered by wind and weather and discovered by chance 31 years after she was murdered).

Rather liked this bit of nonsense from you Jom:

"The ideals of the revolution were to end the divisions in society and build a fairer one
Whether that worked or not is immaterial"


I would have thought that whether it (The revolution") worked or not (In achieving its aims) would be regarded by all as being f**kin' fundamental.

Russia did not catch up with the West as you put it - not by a long shot.

Tell me Jom, how many people in this "work-in-progress" worker's Utopia were allowed to be Communist Party Members?

Tell me Jom, in this "work-in-progress" worker's Utopia did everyone shop in the same stores, or were there special ones only for Party Members? Same with education too wasn't it Jom, the brats of Party members went to special schools didn't they. Preferential treatment from cradle to grave for the Party few - You'll get what we decide to give you for the rest.

Your magnificent revolution in Russia Jom just replaced one tiny ruling elite with another.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jun 17 - 02:54 AM

"Hear Here!"
Usually the case when one is brought face-to-face with the crimes and atrocities of their own nation while condemning those of others
Pity
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: robomatic
Date: 26 Jun 17 - 11:26 PM

Hear Here!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jun 17 - 07:33 PM

"but you are playing the part of a hog on ice."
Sticks and stones Robo
You are not responding to what I write
All these facts are verifiable - "alternative facts" has become a Trumpist bolt hole to avoid answering questions
If you question anything I have written, have the balls to dispute it rather than throwing stones at it from a safe distance.
What are your "facts"?
I am left with the impression that this discussion is drawing to a close
Pity
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: robomatic
Date: 26 Jun 17 - 05:16 PM

I acknowledge the sheer unreconstructedness of your answer, but you are playing the part of a hog on ice. You are in your own universe and unwilling to deal with anything but your own 'alternative facts'. You are not even paying attention to my posts and my positions. That shows a lack of respect.

THERE ARE NONE SO BLIND AS THOSE WHO WILL NOT SEE, NONE SO DEAF AS THOSE WHO WILL NOT HEAR.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jun 17 - 01:54 PM

You vote whether to go back into a murderous war after you have just waked away - don't be daft!!
This was a revolution
The last revolution in Russia was in 1905 when peaceful protests led to mass slaughter
The Germans transported Lenin back to Russia as part of their war effort - nothing to do with politics
You are still skating around the moral right and wrong of this debate
Put simply - Capitalism is based on acquisition and conquest and it led to a World War which in turn led to a revolt by the people who bore the brunt of the consequences of that war
The ideals of the revolution were to end the divisions in society and build a fairer one
Whether that worked or not is immaterial - those divisions remain in our society; the Soviet Union caught up with the west in half a century - from a semi-feudal empite to an advanced economy with a superior education system based on education for all and massive scientific and medical advances for all
It took a semi-socialist government thirty years in Britain to establish a free health service, and that has now been undermined to the point of destruction by right wing governments since
America hasn't even got off the starting blocks in that respect - there, they check your wallet before they feel your pulse.
Neither side comes out with vclean hands as far as injustices and mistakes are concerned, and we are still plundering our way through the third world to keep our home comforts
I'm afraid it is you who is dodging the main points - but if that't the way you want to play it..... fine by me   
From your 'coffee house reference,Ia assume you are in the U.S.
I suggest you examine the political and social implications of the fire in London.... greed and neglect of teh poor in all it's glory
Watch this space
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: robomatic
Date: 26 Jun 17 - 01:15 PM

Jim:

I said some time ago that we'd arrived at our core contretemps. And we are not playing atrocity vs. atrocity, not me, anyway. I'm concerned with how do we deal with human nature. You are deeply enmired in the Gods of Ideology (Book reference: The God That Failed) and your carefully cherry-picked historical recitations. We are not making progress at this point, just trading ripostes. And you are still ignoring what points I've made.
I was talking to some fellow coffee house denizens yesterday and was reminded of the fact that the Bolsheviks, the Communists, named themselves Bolsheviks and labeled the Socialists Mensheviks despite the fact that the Bolsheviks were in theminority and the Mensheviks greatly outnumbered them! Fake facts from the get-go. And the Bolsheviks withdrew from WWI not so much in a bid for peace but as a deal with the Germans who'd enabled Lenin to get into Russia. But with the Bolsheviks leadership and force went hand-in-hand. They didn't bother with things like campaigns and votes, they had a much better target for the Russian military than Germans. Russians!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jun 17 - 09:57 AM

So one atrocity cancels out another
Must remember that
As far as I am concerned it puts the British government on par with the terrorists who murdered Jean McConville
As a British citizen, I take seriously what the Government does in my name - you seem to be happy they behave like terrorists
Diff'rent strokes eh?
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Jun 17 - 09:22 AM

Great Jom I do hope that Stephen Rea also reads out what happened, detailing the extent of the torture and mutilation endured by Jean McConville and the account of her summary execution at the hands of the Provisional IRA, after his wife Dolores Price drove Mrs McConville to her death.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jun 17 - 07:36 AM

"Jom you are a racist, bigoted, biased, Anglophobe - "
'Course I am Teribus - who wouldn't be who refuses to cower to your bluster and bullying
Grow up, for crying out loud - your behaviour has no place on a debating forum
HAVE A NICE DAY NOW
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Jun 17 - 07:12 AM

Jom you are a racist, bigoted, biased, Anglophobe - your comments and track record speak for themselves.

jkm,,8i (That was just typed by the cat - makes more sense than most of Carroll's posts)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jun 17 - 06:09 AM

It's not "Anglophobic" to detest a State that uses a natural disaster into mass murder because God told the feller responsible for distributing relife that the Irish were "evil" - anybody with a shred of decency would detest any nation for behaving like that.
I look forward to being accused of the same when we get around to discussing the new evidence that has been uncovered of Britain using waterboarding during the troubles - but not with you, unless you learn to stop behaving like a little Hitler
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jun 17 - 04:50 AM

"Yes Jom, my little Anglophobic scouser"
Fuck off until yoiu learn to behave like an adult - but thanks for the vivid wexample of what an insecure little twot you are
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Jun 17 - 04:45 AM

"The fact of the Irish Famine is that there was enough food available to feed the Irish people four times over yet a million people starved and immigration was forced on millions of others - all this was adopted as a deliberate policy to solve a political problem."

Yes Jom, my little Anglophobic scouser, we have been over this ad nauseam, and we will continue to bash on with it every single time you dredge up your favourite myths, misrepresentations and half-truths.

Fact: "There was enough food available to feed the Irish people four times over" - very true but that was coupled with a couple of other facts that you and many others have completely and deliberately failed to hoist in.

1 - There was no means of storing that food
2 - There was no means of distributing it

Back in 1845 to 1851 produce was harvested, sold, transported and resold at market. Livestock was reared, sold on the hoof, transported, slaughtered and sold at market. The time it could hang about was extremely limited otherwise it spoiled. Ireland had to sell it's produce otherwise the "famine" would have been all encompassing.

You and others taking the same view point as yourself have never been able to answer the one question I have asked - How could all this food in Ireland have been transported to the places of greatest and most urgent need? You had no roads, no railways, few large ports, no storage facilities, insufficient draught animals and carts (Besides which you hadn't the grain to feed those draught animals)

Non-Fact: "a million people starved"

Simply put they didn't the estimated death toll was roughly 1.5 million the vast majority of which died from disease not starvation. The min killers were diseases that would not know any cure for another forty years.

Fact: "Immigration was forced on millions"

Even sheep will not stay on hillsides that have no grazing Jom. The people had to move or die, they chose to move and it was migration that accounted for the largest percentage of the drop in population not starvation.

Non-Fact: "All this was adopted as a deliberate policy to solve a political problem."

WHAT POLITICAL PROBLEM?? There was no political problem.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jun 17 - 03:58 AM

We can do this forever and not get anywhere Robo - throwing Communist-Capitalist atrocities at each other like the 'hand' game - I put my hand down, you put yours on top, then I put my other hand down on yours..... and so ad infinitum
There really doesn't seem much point
As far as I'm concerned, the discussion needs to concentrate on systems, not random flaws.
In 1917, the Russian soldiers walked away from the first and greatest atrocity of the 20th century - WWI - 'The Great Imperial War' as it was then known.
After five months of party-haggling the Bolsheviks took control with their policy of "Bread, Peace and Land" as opposed to the Menshevik's "Go back to the killing fields and we'll sort it out when/if you come home".
Every single problem that the Soviet Union had stems from the fact that Russia was not prepared for a revolution that was thrust on her by the circumstances of a rebellious military refusing to fight, a starving population who was fully prepared to back the soldiers and an Empire ranging from undeveloped Capitalism in the West to Feudalism verging on Nomadism in the East
This was insurmountable enough but was compounded by a hostile Western World which reacted violently to the idea that any major country should adopt a policy based on the philosophy of giving equality of opportunity to all of its people
That was Marx's "Spectre of Communism" exorcised to life.
In my opinion, Russia shouldn't have been the first - it should have been Germany and very nearly was.
Rather than the "your atrocity is bigger than my atrocity" approach we have indulged in so far, that's where I feel we should be going if we are going to get anywhere
As it is so far, you hold up what happened to an American who pulled down a flag - I trump you with seven years of pouring burning petrol on Vietnamese farmers
You put up a bookshop that sold only one book - easily trumpable with centuries of education which taught generation after generation of children that foreigners were inferior, Britannia Ruled the Waves and we should be prepared to roll over and die for the Monarch (who was often believed to have been chosen by God) just like trained dogs - they called it "King and Country".
I'm happy to take this in any direction you wish - all good mental aerobics
It's up to you
Another book for your list if you ever get time 'The Kings Depart' by Richard M Watts - an extremely readable and agenda-less summing up of Europe between the wars
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: robomatic
Date: 25 Jun 17 - 03:50 PM

Jim:

First things first, thanks for your dense response and for 'splaining your comment about who gets to correct what.

Next: Communists didn't have to burn books. In the case of the Soviet Union, they literally shot letters out of their alphabet! (Would that the Irish would now do the same!)

But seriously, the Communists controlled what could be published in the first place. I'll never forget a Western reporter in a Chinese bookstore in the era of Mao. There was only ONE BOOK for sale! I'll bet N. Korea is similar right this very minute.

Nazis and the Soviet Union were VERY COMPARABLE, top-down political control in the solid grip of a despot, practicing major Cult Of Personality. The Nazis based their society on the false science of race. The Communists on the false science of Marxism/ Dialectical materialism. Oh, and the personalities of Hitler and Stalin, respectively. Reality was made subservient to the needs of the state, so that Darwin's survival of the fittest was extended by the Nazis to enable them to select that the fittest must be people who looked like themselves. The Communists actually denied Darwinism because is indicated that humans were not able to perfect themselves, and Stalin advanced an ignoramus named Lysenko who put Soviet biology in the dustbin for years.

Both societies reeked of hubris.

Your comment about Israel is neither here nor there (plenty of Israelis say the same things). But the irony is major: Early Israeli settlements from the days before independence into the 1970s made use of socialist societies, openly proudly and successfully, while only intermittently successful elsewhere in the West. Perhaps because it was small scale, administered from the bottom up, and not disastrously from the top town as was administered by Chavez in Venezuela, which resulted in a kleptocracy and the current disaster.


A lot of your comments about where today's countries are going are similar to my doubts. But they are made worse by false ideology. Take for example Yugoslavia. Tito as strongman kept it together by force, not rule of law. When his grip ended, all the poison in the mud hatched out, to quote Robert Graves. That is not Nazism, not Coummunism, not Democracy. That is the human condition. I think Clinton was right to lead NATO in limiting Serbia's grip on the region, but it took violence. Something that Clinton chose not to do in Africa, and hundreds of thousands of Rwandans and Somalis and Sudanese have perished. (And we're back to the thread topic Movie References: Hotel Rwanda; Beasts of No Nation)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jun 17 - 03:38 AM

"As Heine said, "where books are burnt, men also will be burnt"."
I don't remember any Communist books being burned - I remember the (right wing) Nazis actually burning book
On the other hand, restricting access to certain books has been a feature of all societies of all political hues - even the Catholic Church in "Holy Ireland" had (and still has) its somewhat arbitrarily chosen "Index of forbidden books"
"You mentioned being in Czechoslovakia when the Soviets were invading. "
Muy point is exactly what it has been all along - you need to distinguish between the objectives of any system and any anomalies that occur while those objectives are being pursued.
Yes - rightly the Czechs didn't want their 'socialism' imposed on them from outside, but they still wished to continue on that road.
Stalin was the anomaly who went a long way to destroying that objective just as (dare I mention it) various Israeli administrations have destroyed the dream of Israel.
The Soviet Union adopted exactly the same policies as the west is doing and has always done - if the policies of those you have influence over doesn't suit you it has to be controlled,
They interfered in Hungary and Czechoslovakia, we are up tpo our arses in interfering in the policies of countries that don't suit us.... Korea, Vietnam, Cambodia, Iraq, Afghanistan...... (not mentioning the clandestine interference that is very much a part of the foreign policy of the west)
We also interfere by proxy by supporting, financing and arming some of the world's most oppressive dictators.
How is this in any way different to what the Soviet Union was doing?
Let's look at what happened top what happened to Czechoslovakia after communism, and all the other newly "free" states.
Chechoslovakia divided peacefully and is now ties into European capitalism, which has allowed it to avoid many of the excesses of a declining system
Yugoslavia entered into a bloody ethnic cleansing war between the separate constituent groups which will remain in our memories for some time to come
Tito did much to keep those groups apart for the whole o his leadership
When I was in Yugoslavia there was no sign of what was to come.
Hungary and Rumania have swung, or are in the process of swinging to the extreme right - European fascism is on the march again.
Need one mention Putin?
China is interesting in that it still clings to aspects of the old system while adopting many of the traits of capitalism - and doing quite well out of it.
Nobody can claim that what has replaced the old system in many of these countries has improved the lot of the people as a whole - Rumania and Poland have become nations of migrants dependent on working abroad, life in Russia is as controlled as it ever was and it's leaders have become a threat to world security.
Prague has become the place to go for child sex.
When I visited these countries I left with a feeling that the people I met believed they were working for a brighter future - now I am left with the impression that the future is totally beyond their control
I bet the people of today's Russia wouldn't refer to a war todat as 'The Patriotic War' as they did in the sixties.
You talk of the Nazis and Soviets in the one sentence as if they were comparable - they are not
Nazism was a built in objective - what happened there was decreed to happen
What happened in the Soviet Union under Stalin, happened despite the objectives of communism, not because of them
Nazism was a natural development of Capitalism in crisis and was fully supported and financed by the German industrial Capitalism in the form of Krupps, Essen and Volksagen, who used the Jewish People as slave labour and sent them to their deaths when they were no longer fit to work
"sounds classy but I don't have a clue as to what it means"
Simples - my wife gets to correct my errors - you, a stranger, don't
Drawing attention to typos is all too often a way of avoiding awkward bits of argument on this forum
Teribus
We really have been over this ad nauseum
The fact of the Irish Famine is that there was enough food available to feed the Irish people four times over yet a million people starved and immigration was forced on millions of others - all this was adopted as a deliberate policy to solve a political problem.
I have no intention of taking this any further with you - you have proved yourself ignorant and intransigent as far as Irish history is concerned and racist in your attitude to the Irish people as a whole.
Four "Carrolls" and a "Jom" is indicative enough that you intend to continue with your defensive loutishness - so why should anybody be arsed with someone who tries to overcome their ignorance by talking down and bullying
Go and get some manners and learn to behave like an adult and we might just have something to say to each other
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: robomatic
Date: 24 Jun 17 - 07:26 PM

Jim:

Your 'ungracious' comment reminded me of an episode of The Simpsons (years ago) where Homer quits his job at the nuclear power plant and learns he has to return and beg for it back because he's going to have a third child (Maggie). Mr. Burns and Smithers make him enter their office through a tiny door marked 'Supplicants' which Homer has to get on the floor to get through: "So you've come crawling back" says Mr. Burns. Homer, all innocence, looks up from the floor and says "Seems the classy thing would be not to draw attention to it!"

Anyhow, I want you to know that I've experienced more than one instance of not knowing for sure what you were trying to say and I have not gone to any trouble to call attention to it 'til now. I understand the phenomenon of beating out a riposte with busy fingers but I've learned to take some time, even frame the post offline in Microsoft Word so no internet spasm will kill off my precious thoughts without backup. I also have the additional time of pre-push-send reflection to meditate on whether or not I really want to post my words.

I feel you have paid not enough attention to several of my posts but I accuse you of nothing other than maybe being more concerned with personal invective than thoughtful arguments. You and I seem to have moderated the personal remarks, and I am going to see if I can learn from that for my future correspondence online.

You and I have, I think, found our points of demarcation, where we are not going to agree. I am with Orwell. I am with Reynaldo Arenas. The systems which exert mind control are the worst. What the Nazis and Communists did to their entire populations, is anathema. They made Europe hell on earth and we should learn those lessons and never repeat those sad evil experiences.

As Heine said, "where books are burnt, men also will be burnt".

Among the problems with my position is that we reasonable people live in a world left to us by fanatics, who are willing to sacrifice more for extremist positions.

You mentioned being in Czechoslovakia when the Soviets were invading. But I don't understand your point. I'm sure the Czechs didn't want their country dominated by force from the Soviets, and it was their very seeking of political/ intellectual freedoms that led to their invasions (and the much bloodier invasion of Hungary in '56). I don't care if it is called 'democratic' or 'western' or 'velvet revolution', it is the seeking of freedom from despotism. What's not to like? It is breaking down the Berlin Wall and letting people live and breathe and think and speak what they want It is not necessary to like it.

Let's look at what happened to Czechoslovakia after the fall of Communism. What was Czechoslovakia is now two separate relatively free countries (the velvet divorce). Go back there and see if they want to go back to where they were.

"we are not good enough friends for you to be accurate" sounds classy but I don't have a clue as to what it means. (Maybe the classy thing is not to draw attention to it).


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Teribus
Date: 24 Jun 17 - 06:39 AM

As for Ireland (also a major interest of mine)
The only difference of what happened in their famine and the one we are discussing is that ours was probably deliberately manipulated to solve political problems - I don't believe this was the case with Stalin."


Even considering the different ages and the technological advances made in the 87 years that separated the two events I would have thought that if what Carroll states is true the British would have succeeded in killing far, far more of the population of Ireland during the seven years of this "supposed" genocide for a great deal less expenditure. I mean Carroll does keep harping on about how deliberate everything was. The facts of the matter are that the whole thing was mismanaged and as much as Carroll might like to go on about it the facts also show that excluding "Trevelyan's Corn" four times as much grain was exported from the UK TO Ireland during the famine years than was imported into England FROM Ireland. The issue which no historian who has written about the event has ever considered or addressed in their works is the problem of distribution and storage. Carroll and others on this forum in the past have been asked about it and they merely ignore the question and the problem in the hope that it just goes away.

The three factors identified in causing the drop in Ireland's population between 1845 and 1851 are as follows:

1: Emigration
2: Death from disease
3: Death from Starvation

Which tallied together number somewhere between 2.5 and 3 million people according to 1841 and 1851 Census figures.

On the emigration side of things, the British organised free passage to Canada, to sail to the USA you had to pay and you had to have goods, tools or cash equivalent of £10 and been in good health (According to Cecil Woodham-Smyth's book). Carroll mentioned "Coffin Ships" yet the vast majority of them did successfully cross the Atlantic, I would have thought that had the aim of the British Government been genocide as Carroll claims then the British would have ensured that none of them did. Similarly had "genocide" been the aim no aid at all, let alone over £10 millions worth, would have been sent to Ireland.

Stalin on the other hand using all the modern means at his disposal did engage in a campaign of genocide and deliberate slaughter and succeeded in killing anything up to eight times the number of people in just one single year.

Sorry Jom the evidence simply does not stack up to support your theory. By all means keep on dredging it up and I will keep hitting you with cold, hard, historical, recorded facts that disprove your myth.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jun 17 - 06:38 AM

Speaking of typos
"coworker"
Without the hyphen this appears to refer to someone who does unspeakable things to cows!
Just a thought
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jun 17 - 04:39 AM

How did prosperous, oil rich Venezuela become a starving basket case?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Mass murder of defenceless civilians
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jun 17 - 04:38 AM

Sorry Robo - your posting adds nothing substantial to what has been said - all the first sentence does is set up an aggressive barrier.
I apologise for the typos - can't be bothered to get Deutscher's works down from the shelf to check and my memory isn't what it is
My typos are down to the speed I type - my fingers move faster than my brain nowadays - somewhat ungracious of you to mention it, but there you go.
I read a lot and tend to rely on what I have read rather than anecdotal evidence, though I accept both are important.
I hold no brief for Stalin and what he did, but I think that what the Soviet Union was attempting in the early days was important enough to try and understand.
I was in Czechoslovakia on the morning that the Russians opened the barriers after the invasion and I spent several weeks with people who had taken part in the protests - Velvet Revolutionaries all - I didn't meet one who would wish to swap their system for that in the West - though many envied the material gains.
You choose to use the flaws to attack the system - I would rather understand the flaws so they can be avoided in future
As for Ireland (also a major interest of mine)
The only difference of what happened in their famine and the one we are discussing is that ours was probably deliberately manipulated to solve political problems - I don't believe this was the case with Stalin.
A failure to even consider that makes you a denier of what they refer to here as 'The Irish Holocaust' (which is, quite rightly, illegal when applied to the Jewish one)
If you wish to continue with this, I suggest you do so with the psychoanalyses (or the side use of typos) - we are not good enough friends for you to be accurate.
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate
Next Page

 


You must be a member to post in non-music threads. Join here.


You must be a member to post in non-music threads. Join here.



Mudcat time: 29 June 11:51 AM EDT

[ Home ]

All original material is copyright © 1998 by the Mudcat Café Music Foundation, Inc. All photos, music, images, etc. are copyright © by their rightful owners. Every effort is taken to attribute appropriate copyright to images, content, music, etc. We are not a copyright resource.