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Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady

Big Al Whittle 24 May 17 - 08:46 AM
Senoufou 24 May 17 - 08:07 AM
Jim Carroll 24 May 17 - 07:58 AM
Big Al Whittle 24 May 17 - 06:01 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 May 17 - 05:02 AM
Dave the Gnome 24 May 17 - 05:00 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 May 17 - 05:00 AM
Jim Carroll 24 May 17 - 04:57 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 May 17 - 04:40 AM
Jim Carroll 23 May 17 - 02:51 PM
Jim Carroll 23 May 17 - 01:35 PM
Big Al Whittle 23 May 17 - 01:17 PM
Keith A of Hertford 23 May 17 - 12:16 PM
Jim Carroll 23 May 17 - 07:51 AM
Keith A of Hertford 23 May 17 - 04:52 AM
Teribus 23 May 17 - 04:47 AM
Senoufou 23 May 17 - 03:37 AM
Backwoodsman 23 May 17 - 03:16 AM
Senoufou 22 May 17 - 04:39 PM
Senoufou 22 May 17 - 04:34 PM
Backwoodsman 22 May 17 - 04:15 PM
Jim Carroll 22 May 17 - 12:54 PM
Big Al Whittle 22 May 17 - 12:29 PM
Nigel Parsons 22 May 17 - 12:11 PM
Senoufou 22 May 17 - 09:26 AM
Jim Carroll 22 May 17 - 09:15 AM
Senoufou 22 May 17 - 09:07 AM
Jim Carroll 22 May 17 - 08:07 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 May 17 - 07:13 AM
Big Al Whittle 22 May 17 - 05:11 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 May 17 - 04:20 AM
Jim Carroll 21 May 17 - 12:56 PM
Greg F. 21 May 17 - 09:23 AM
Pete from seven stars link 21 May 17 - 09:16 AM
akenaton 21 May 17 - 08:02 AM
Backwoodsman 21 May 17 - 07:35 AM
akenaton 21 May 17 - 07:26 AM
Senoufou 21 May 17 - 07:07 AM
Jim Carroll 21 May 17 - 07:02 AM
Senoufou 21 May 17 - 06:51 AM
akenaton 21 May 17 - 05:07 AM
Backwoodsman 21 May 17 - 01:16 AM
Steve Shaw 20 May 17 - 08:19 PM
Jim Carroll 20 May 17 - 08:01 PM
Big Al Whittle 20 May 17 - 04:25 PM
akenaton 20 May 17 - 03:39 PM
Jim Carroll 20 May 17 - 02:40 PM
akenaton 20 May 17 - 01:28 PM
Senoufou 20 May 17 - 01:14 PM
Jim Carroll 20 May 17 - 12:53 PM
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Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 May 17 - 08:46 AM

the thing is - its our problem. Us - the people who don't throw bombs and murder children like Brady did for sexual satisfaction.

I've got more in common with JIm and Ake - than i have with the bloke who does this nasty stuff.

WE're not going to come up with anything useful if we don't start from the get go with the assumption that we are all nearer the light than Ian Brady, and which ever bastard turned him into a monster.


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Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: Senoufou
Date: 24 May 17 - 08:07 AM

I tend to agree with you Al. We're all naturally aghast at the evil actions, but it isn't all that common to go one further and ask ourselves "WHY did they do it?" And there will always be a reason.
Either a certain mental mindset, abuse, alienation, indoctrination and so on. If they hadn't suffered from one or more of these things, they presumably wouldn't have done what they did.

On a tiny level, I've dealt with some extremely disturbed and badly-behaved pupils, (whom the Head always sent to me to keep the lid on. Thanks so much Mr H!) And while being firm and insisting the behaviour stopped, I usually found the child had a valid reason for their non-conformity. Their home life was awful, they were struggling with social relationships and had no friends, they were not quite normal in their mental health and so on.

I'm NOT trying to make excuses for evil. But it's far more complex than just condemning people out of hand and executing them. The more understanding we gain of their motives and mindsets, the more chance we have of combating wickedness and preventing future atrocities.


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Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 May 17 - 07:58 AM

"however in the case of the muslims. i think its a bit disingenuous of Jim to keep going on as though we all hate muslims."
Where have I ever said that Al - I certainly have never said it
I respond to hatred of Muslims as and when it comes up
I think that some statements that have been made can lead to a general hatred of Muslims - some of of them are intended to, but there are only a tiny handful of genuine Islamophobes on this forum - they stick out like the buboes they are
Yes - every community does have its problems and YOU ARE doing them no favours by staying silent and passing by on the other side
I've come to be very fond of your efforts as a peacemaker, but being lice to one another isn't what these forums should be about
It would make them very boring, apart from anything else
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 May 17 - 06:01 AM

well i suppose both of them are a bit bonkers.

however they both had logical reasons for what they did. sexual satisfaction and social alienation.

i suppose they both had the alienation factor.

i suppose both of them had a doctrine they subscribed to. its difficult to see what turned Brady onto sadism. no doubt something in his background made him damaged goods'

however in the case of the muslims. i think its a bit disingenouous of Jim to keep going on as though we all hate muslims. when I first went to teach in Brum - I had no idea of what a muslim was. i taught there eight happy years taught loads of all kinds of kids, never had any problem with any of them - probably less than with any other racial group.

I remember most of the kids parents hated General Zia and several said he was an uneducated man and had sympathy for Bhutto.

the time i realised something was going wrong in the mosques was several years later when i was supply teaching in Derby. Virtually all the muslim children (from 11 years upward) said they wanted to kill Salman Rushdie at the time of the Satanic Verses business. there are people using the mosque to disseminate bad ideas to the young. It needs sorting. Only they can do it.

Its buggerall to do with the Arab Spring. this is a domestic problem, and its a problem only the muslim population can sort out. for some reason various alienated people in our society - many of them from a racially English white background are getting their angst pandered to in the mosques.

every community has its problems. that's one of theirs. JIm - you're doing 'em no favours keep going on that people who drew attention to the grooming business and this business of malcontents calling themselves terrorists, are racist bigots.

they've got their problems - we've got ours. denying their problems gives legitimacy to the racists.


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Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 May 17 - 05:02 AM

All four links work fine.


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Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 May 17 - 05:00 AM

What I find interesting on this thread is that no one has mentioned Brady's nationality or religion. Is that only worth mentioning if the murderers are like the recent Manchester bomber? Both are child killers yet one is mad and the other is a terrorist. How does that work then?

DtG


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Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 May 17 - 05:00 AM

You gave links to variably qualified or otherwise statements which in no way proved your "myth" claim" - one was unopenable

Rubbish. They were all scientific papers.
I will sort the bad link.


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Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 May 17 - 04:57 AM

"You gave no "study"
You gave links to variably qualified or otherwise statements which in no way proved your "myth" claim" - one was unopenable
"Can you find any such report that lists what you claim?"
I've just given you one which specifically refers to the effects I was already aware of?
Can you give a report which contradicts that statement
No?
Thought not
Have you any explanation of why women were forced to wear canvas draws?
Don't bother to come back with more denials bo----ring
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 May 17 - 04:40 AM

Jim and Al,
I gave you scientific studies on the effects of hanging on all parts of the body.
They are very detailed including some very unpleasant descriptions.
Can you find any such report that lists what you claim?
Come back when you can.


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Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 May 17 - 02:51 PM

Said I wasn't going to bother, but this is the actual quote I referred to - again!!!

"convicts -- especially women -- in England, condemned women were compelled to don heavy canvass slacks at time of execution.
The "long drop" has the force to kill instantly, but also to caused rectal and vaginal prolapse -- the tearing out of internal organs and discharge through lower orifices.
The "short drop" was another story. Known to slowly strangle the victim rather than cause instant death."

Now will you leave me alone Keith - please
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 May 17 - 01:35 PM

"Jim, your story was just a hoary old myth."
Prove it Keith - the fact that nobody mentioned something that is not often talked about in public is immaterial
For someone who claims not to support capital punishment, you seem to put an enormous amount of effort into defending it - a bit like your "non-support" for Ukip
Quite franky, I'be become totally bored with hit-'n-run comments by people like you why claim one thing then prove the opposite
Your return to "scholarly articles" - as with your "real historians" is pathetic
Your "scholarly articles amount to one Wiki (scholarly???) article by an anonymous contributor, on from Dr Dinesh Rao (who?) who deals mainly with strangulation, not execution and devotes half a dozen lines to the subject of judicial handing, which he/she touches on superficially, one anonymous article which deals with execution by strangulation in foreign countries and doesn't mention the methods used by British hangmen with their technique of planning to break the neck rather than strangle their victims - the main cause of expulsion of bodily matter and innards – and last but not least – one from "Academia" which it totally inaccessible, which is obvios as you have been unable to access it and have just grabbed a handy looking title
Your phantom "experts and historians" ride again   
You are not evening to pretend that these people are experts
I have no intention of nausing up another thread by responding to your attention-seeking idiocy
If you have anything positive to offer – feel free
If not – please don't tell me something about what I have always been aware of
Go and find some real "experts" if you feel you have a case
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 23 May 17 - 01:17 PM

oh yeh i bet every hanging attracts huge numbers of scholars.
I bet Tyburn Tree was packed out like the Oxford Union.


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Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 May 17 - 12:16 PM

Jim, your story was just a hoary old myth.
Read all those scholarly articles I provided on the physiological effects of hanging.
No mention of it.

You have provided and unauthenticated anecdote from some book.
You have failed to make a case. It is a myth.


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Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 May 17 - 07:51 AM

"anyone who has had to field clean a deer "
Are we discussing hanging deer/
Must have missed that one
"Stories like that just weaken the anti case."
Only if you choose to ignore them or dismiss them
How on earth can such descriptions weaken the case.
There have been very little detailed descriptions of the actual effects of of hanging - it wouldn't have been good for the image.
Even today, those who support its return do not like to talk about it (out of sight-out of mind) and they would run a mile if they were required to carry out the act themselves
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 May 17 - 04:52 AM

I am strongly anti capital punishment, but for solid and rational reasons.
Stories like that just weaken the anti case.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanging#Medical_effects
http://www.forensicpathologyonline.com/e-book/asphyxia/hanging

http://www.capitalpunishmentuk.org/Hanging_myths.pdf

http://www.academia.edu/3003781/Post-Mortem_Appearances_in_Hanging_and_the_Cardinal_Sign_in_Ante-Mortem_Hanging_to_Ascertain_Hanging_as_the_Cause_of_Death


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Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: Teribus
Date: 23 May 17 - 04:47 AM

Centuries ago public executions were arranged as demonstrations of the power of the law and the dreadful consequences of flouting the law. No "police force", no formal procedures governing investigations so unless the perpetrators were caught red-handed or were positively identified in the execution of their crime - they normally got away with it.

Only 10% of the death sentences ever handed down were ever carried out according to the historical notes appended to Bernard Cornwell's book "Gallows Thief", in which he explains the term to be "hanged without mercy". The old form of hanging still practiced today in Islamic countries is slow hanging where you are hoisted up, or the platform is removed from under you and you are left suspended - in these cases you are slowly strangled by your own body weight - the lighter you (Women & children) the longer your death agony. Under English Law the Judge could grant or withhold "Mercy" which was a dead weight that could be attached to the victim's ankles to speed the process up. Sometime in the 1700s Slow hanging was replaced with first a short drop, then later by the long drop where on release of the trap the neck is snapped and death is instantaneous. I have heard that in hanging the bowels and bladder evacuate - I have never, ever heard of anyone's intestines falling out - anyone who has had to field clean a deer will know how somethings insides are held in place and the work it takes to remove them.


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Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: Senoufou
Date: 23 May 17 - 03:37 AM

I too seem to remember another book (a library book, I get through dozens!) which dealt with the history of the death penalty. I was interested in the Lollards, but this particular tome travelled through the ages. I seem to remember it said that when a woman was hanged, she was made to wear some kind of 'modesty garment' so people couldn't see anything indecent as she hung in the air. Sometimes they tied a cord around her legs at the bottom, over her dress.
Macabre that the thousand of spectators could have been fazed by the sight of a woman's legs etc but didn't mind in the least watching her death struggles as she strangled slowly on the end of a rope (it wasn't swift).
Between the two gateposts at Norwich Castle, many hangings were carried out. The crowds were phenomenal; there was music and broadsheet vendors, and food for sale. A regular day out for all the family!


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Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 May 17 - 03:16 AM

Thanks Eliza, I must have read it elsewhere, perhaps in the linked article which I've seen previously.


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Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: Senoufou
Date: 22 May 17 - 04:39 PM

There is no reference to special knickers or loss of internal organs, blood or anything else when describing the execution of any woman in his long list of victims.

He does actually mention female prison warders being excused the last moments on the scaffold. They were replaced by male officers after the condemned had reached the drop. How thoughtful!!

Re-reading parts of his book only serves to emphasise to me just how dreadful and barbaric executions are.


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Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: Senoufou
Date: 22 May 17 - 04:34 PM

Pierrepoint describes the dispatch of Irma Grese, Elisabeth Volkenrath and Juana Bormann, Belsen death camp 'officers', all of whom did not flinch.

He later states in his book, "At the execution of Ruth Ellis no untoward incident happened which in any way appalled me or anyone else..."

Towards the end of his 'career' he was asked to report to a Commission who were evaluating the Death Penalty, and he reluctantly did so. He was asked, among many other questions, if there was anything particularly difficult or unpleasant in the execution of a woman.
He replied, "No, I think a woman is braver than a man, and I have seen more executions than anybody living."


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Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 May 17 - 04:15 PM

I'm pretty certain that Pierrepoint describes the effects of hanging on females in his book - it's a long time since I read it, maybe Eliza could confirm? I'm almost certain that it's where I first heard of the expulsion of internal organs, and of the practice of using canvas pants to retain what came out. Doesn't sound like an urban myth to me, nor should it to KAoH - after all, AP was one of the top 'experts' in his field.

One more example of the revolting barbarity of capital punishment. There is no justification.


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Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 May 17 - 12:54 PM

"(taken from the Daily Mail 28 Oct 2009)"
My information came from one of our books - a history of capital punishment, 'The Fatal Gallows Tree', published in 1965 - I've already quoted bits from it.
Doesn't matter if it appeared in the bible or Old Moore's Almanac - Keith would deny it because it doesn't suit his agenda
He's like that
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 May 17 - 12:29 PM

well if keith says its a myth i suppose its no big deal hanging women. like Ake was saying its probably quite beneficial for them. terrific idea really!

probably one of their best. really its a testimony to their incredible insight and the depth of their understanding and humane approach to life's dilemmas.


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Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 22 May 17 - 12:11 PM

"The expulsion of female organs I am sure is a myth."
I've given a documented statement on this
Do you have any proof that it is inaccurate or ids this just another of your denials?
Jim Carroll

I'm not really sure that quoting what you yourself have stated in an earlier thread actually counts as "a documented statement".

However, in fairness, there is information here about the use of 'calico' padded knickers. (close to canvas I suppose) following a massive release of blood in the hanging of Edith Thompson. (taken from the Daily Mail 28 Oct 2009)


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Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: Senoufou
Date: 22 May 17 - 09:26 AM

Good grief Jim, that's truly appalling. Your poor father.
Man's inhumanity to Man seems to know no bounds.


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Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 May 17 - 09:15 AM

"Surely a doctor is betraying his entire vocation by agreeing to play any part in this barbarism?"
Is this not true of a priest as well
When my father was a prisoner in Spain he and his fellow prisoners were subjected to 'mock executions' throughout the time he was there
They were taken out irregularly, administered the last rites and placed before a firing squad, which would go through the motions of an execution then fall about laughing and walk away, leaving the young men standing there
The priest would join in the jollity
I only found that out last year - it explains why my father couldn't talk about his experiences for years afterward - he remained totally silent for a full year on his return to England
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: Senoufou
Date: 22 May 17 - 09:07 AM

One of the many things I found totally repugnant about Pierrepoint's book were the accounts of the Prison Doctor verifying that death had occurred, shoving his stethoscope against the unfortunate victim's chest in the chamber under the execution floor.
I understand that a doctor is present during American executions too.
Surely a doctor is betraying his entire vocation by agreeing to play any part in this barbarism?


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Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 May 17 - 08:07 AM

"The expulsion of female organs I am sure is a myth."
I've given a documented statement on this
Do you have any proof that it is inaccurate or ids this just another of your denials?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 May 17 - 07:13 AM

Defecation and urination can result from all methods of execution, and often accompany death anyway.

The expulsion of female organs I am sure is a myth.


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Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 May 17 - 05:11 AM

they haven't got a noose round their neck.
the damage to the nervous system loosens all the muscles down there. everything drops out.
with men, its shit.
with women its the internal organs ...


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Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 May 17 - 04:20 AM

Jim, do female parachutists all wear "canvas drawers?"


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Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 May 17 - 12:56 PM

"But it always strikes me strange that a society that daily takes innocent human life , should agonise so much about taking the life of a murderer ."
We are not "society" we are discussing what society allows and doesn't allow
I have never met anybody who would willingly take human life - I believe even soldiers who went to war found it abhorrent but were persuaded that it was necessary, or, more likely, were given no choice in the matter.
This sums it up for me:

The Man He Killed BY Thomas Hardy
"Had he and I but met
By some old ancient inn,
We should have sat us down to wet
Right many a nipperkin!

"But ranged as infantry,
And staring face to face,
I shot at him as he at me,
And killed him in his place.

"I shot him dead because —
Because he was my foe,
Just so: my foe of course he was;
That's clear enough; although

"He thought he'd 'list, perhaps,
Off-hand like — just as I —
as out of work — had sold his traps —
No other reason why.

"Yes; quaint and curious war is!
You shoot a fellow down
You'd treat if met where any bar is,
Or help to half-a-crown."

We are constantly being blamed for the actions of our "betters" - man is naturally warlike, or violent, or acquisitive......
Don't believe a word of it
Some are certainly, but there's usually a reason why they are what they are.
In my experience people are usually kind or tolerant or humane unless they have been placed in a position where that is not possible.
In my opinion, even the mobs that scream for blood at something like the Moors Murders would run a mile if you handed them a rope or a syringe and tell them to get on with it.
they scream as they do as long as there's someone there who will allow them not to be involved in the actual dirty deed in any way
Some time ago I became involved in a fierce argument on this forum with a number off people as to whether the underage killers of Jamie Bulger should have been executed - one somewhat eccentric lady was extremely insistent that they should have been
The argument turned to the actual mechanics of execution and I related the story of Ruth Ellis having to wear canvas drawers because of the tendency of women's' insides falling out during the drop
Your woman went ballistic because I had raised such an issue and shortly rode off into the sunset.
That is gross hypocrisy as far as I am concerned - never demand something should happen if you are not prepared to do it yourself (with training, of course)
It often makes my smile when I wonder how many of those screaming for blood would stay the course if the state introduced 'topping service' as they do jury service - not many, I suspect, and those that that did would be every bit as dangerous as the customer they they were prepared to top and in need of some sort of restraint themselves.
People just aren't naturally like that - not the ones I've met anyway
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 May 17 - 09:23 AM

You going on about blastulas again, pete?


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Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: Pete from seven stars link
Date: 21 May 17 - 09:16 AM

I think you got it right robomatic , on the OT eye for an eye . It was intended to be limiting vengeance.   Though I do not favour capital punishment myself , neither could I say there was any injustice in executing a murderer convicted beyond a shadow of a doubt. But neither do I think anyone is beyond redemption either . But it always strikes me strange that a society that daily takes innocent human life , should agonise so much about taking the life of a murderer .


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Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: akenaton
Date: 21 May 17 - 08:02 AM

I see your point BWM, but there are always two sides(sometimes more than two sides) in a debate.
I have watched a family member lapse into a living death through dementia accompanied by severe arthritic disability. The result was beyond description. Euthanasia would have been a blessed relief, but would have resulted in criminal charges.
There is no doubt that in the future such actions to relieve pain and suffering will be brought forward, but is there any difference between physical pain and the psychological suffering of people like Brady who have to live with what they have done.
If they are genuinely unaffected by their crimes they do not deserve a place in any sort of society, they are worse than the beasts which we slaughter daily....without a thought.


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Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 May 17 - 07:35 AM

I've read it, or something similar, before. And I've seen videos of executions. All served to persuade me of the obscene, barbaric nature of ritual state-sponsored ritual murder, and that no civilised nation should have any truck with it.


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Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: akenaton
Date: 21 May 17 - 07:26 AM

Thank you Sen....Oh that others here valued unbiased information.


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Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: Senoufou
Date: 21 May 17 - 07:07 AM

The fact it doesn't try to persuade one way or another is why I liked it Jim.


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Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 May 17 - 07:02 AM

"An interesting link "
What's interesting about it?
The reintroduction of capital punishment is not under debate and will never be accepted again.
The article appears to be based on a prurious interest in the subject; it reaches no conclusion and the alternatives give nothing to persuade one way or the other.
You might just as well open a site on dog fighting or bear baiting - or maybe something a little MORE ENTERTAINING !!!
It might be 'convenient' for society to end a life, but that's not how society which claims to be "civilised" works
Taking a life it was once considered so wrong that it was once acceptable to take another life in recompense; contradictory logic.
Thankfully, those contradictions have now been resolved - hopefully forever
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: Senoufou
Date: 21 May 17 - 06:51 AM

akenaton, that's an extremely interesting link, and deals with all sides of the question very fairly. Thank you for posting that.


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Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: akenaton
Date: 21 May 17 - 05:07 AM

An interesting link
HERE


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Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 May 17 - 01:16 AM

"My point is that they should be disposed of, removed from society for having committed heinous crimes against very young children."

He was - he was incarcerated in a prison and, later, in a high-security hospital, with no possibility of ever being released.

Now he's dead. Job done, without the obscenity of state-sponsored ritual murder staining all our hands.


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Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 May 17 - 08:19 PM

Beside the point, I know, but cheers, Jim, for mentioning my old mucker Blair. Whenever I read some of the benighted nonsense peddled here by our agenda-laden friends, I think of Blair, the sweetest and funniest man you could ever wish to meet, a bloke of rock-solid principle who really understood human nature, as tough as old boots and supremely eloquent despite his awful stammer, who stood up for the disadvantaged regardless of colour, creed or come-froms. He liked a pint or three down Burdett Road after the union meetings too!
.


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Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 May 17 - 08:01 PM

"You miss the point Jim, I am against capital punishment in principle, but people like Brady are very special cases"
I don't miss your point at all Ake
Nobody is a special case or everybody is a special case
What's the difference between what Brady did and what the Yanks did to children in Vietnam or wherever they dropped their filth - or the systematic slaughter of civilians in Gaza, or those who dropped the bombs on two towns in Japan and caused generations of deformed children, or on Dresden?
The fact that they did it from a distance doesn't make any of the victims any less dead
What makes Brady a special case - the children killed by pushing buttons died just as horribly?
I have no doubt you will put up an argument for not punishing state sponsored deaths just as you are putting up an argument for State sponsored ritual killings.
Do you suggest that those who sent Evans or all of those who died innocent of any crime should be punished for sending an innocent man to his death,
How about the policemen who rammed Blair Peach's head into the corner of a brick wall and smashed his skull open
How about the Anders Breivik who slaughtered all those young peope yet who you claimed was aaying something worth listening to?
And what about all those "liberals" or disease carrying homosexuals you are constantly ranting about... surely there's room fro them on your "£special case" list?
If all life is sacrosanct taking a life is an act of evil, whoever has done what
At least in the States they don't make any pretence of what capital punishment is about - revenge, pure and simple
That's why they let the relatives of the victims sit and watch the execution.
That debases us all as human beings and as a society
What makes me laugh in all of this is those who scream th loudest for blood are the ones who are supposed to believe in the sanctity of and respect for human life - the Christian who preach brotherly love but spout hatred and retribution for anybody different
Your not out of that particular closet yet, bit it's only a matter o ime...
The only possible advatage of your blood lust would be that it would probably have an impact on the unemployment figures - we'd need a hell of a lot of hangmen if people like you got to select those they thought fit to be executed.
If I ever got round to making a "special cases" I can think of a few on this forum who would be near the top - but I really am not that sort of girl, so rest easy
As usual, you creep stealthily around all the points I put up without addressing them honestly - just stopping to throw stones from a safe distance in your usual heroic and thoughtful way
Must be too busy again, eh?
Socialist my arseum
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 May 17 - 04:25 PM

How would ANYONE benefit?

He'd be dead.
We'd have done something wrong.
Our children would have seen us do something bad and think its okay to kill, instead of seeing us be revolted by the idea.
I suppose Albert Pierrepoint's successor would have made a few quid, but they usually need people down at Tesco to collect the trollies - he could do that instead.

Think Ake! As my Uncle Harold from St Helens, used to say, 'Think on'.


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Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: akenaton
Date: 20 May 17 - 03:39 PM

You miss the point Jim, I am against capital punishment in principle, but people like Brady are very special cases. Everyone including the perpetrators of such horrors would benefit from the demise of these evil people.

Your post is a ragbag of clichés and fallacies, it does not make any sense in this context


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Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 May 17 - 02:40 PM

"My point is that they should be disposed of, removed from society "
Then you are no different from Brady
If it is evil to kill, it is evil to kill
You can't pick and mix this one.
Like homosexuality, society has now come to terms with that fact
As usual, you continue you blunder your way through your self-planted primeval forests
"Capital punishment, in my view, achieved nothing except revenge."
Absolutely - the most honest statement that man ever made
It's not as if we have a justice system that can guarantee delivering the right verdict - you could ask Tim Evans if they hadn't hanged him
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: akenaton
Date: 20 May 17 - 01:28 PM

Sen, one is advocating that the death penalty would be any kind of deterrent to people like Brady.
My point is that they should be disposed of, removed from society for having committed heinous crimes against very young children.
I believe there is such a thing as evil and people like Brady are the embodiment of it. Such evil people do not respond to deterrent or rehabilitation, they are influenced only by their diseased minds and a need to harm the innocent.


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Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: Senoufou
Date: 20 May 17 - 01:14 PM

I think when one is considering the Moors Murders, it's only natural that the question of the death penalty will be raised. The crimes were so abhorrent that many, many people in UK (and elsewhere!) have expressed their opinion that it would have been better to execute the perpetrators rather than let them live the remainder of their lives in prison at the State's expense.

And of course, the natural consequence of these thoughts is, "What DO we do with such people?"

Regarding Pierrepoint, I have his book in front of me at this moment, and I quote from the Preface:_

"I do not now believe that any one of the hundreds of executions I carried out has in any way acted as a deterrent against future murder.
Capital punishment, in my view, achieved nothing except revenge."


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Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 May 17 - 12:53 PM

I didn't raise the issue of Capital punishment Raggy - I think it was Ake, closely followed by Iains
Jim Carroll


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