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Horrendous tower-block fire in W London

Teribus 29 Jun 17 - 11:12 AM
punkfolkrocker 29 Jun 17 - 11:06 AM
McGrath of Harlow 29 Jun 17 - 10:58 AM
punkfolkrocker 29 Jun 17 - 10:44 AM
DMcG 29 Jun 17 - 10:30 AM
Iains 29 Jun 17 - 10:20 AM
Teribus 29 Jun 17 - 10:00 AM
punkfolkrocker 29 Jun 17 - 09:54 AM
Teribus 29 Jun 17 - 09:13 AM
punkfolkrocker 29 Jun 17 - 08:29 AM
DMcG 29 Jun 17 - 08:20 AM
punkfolkrocker 29 Jun 17 - 08:08 AM
punkfolkrocker 29 Jun 17 - 07:56 AM
Iains 29 Jun 17 - 07:10 AM
punkfolkrocker 29 Jun 17 - 06:39 AM
Jim Carroll 29 Jun 17 - 06:34 AM
punkfolkrocker 29 Jun 17 - 06:32 AM
Jim Carroll 29 Jun 17 - 06:31 AM
punkfolkrocker 29 Jun 17 - 06:23 AM
Teribus 29 Jun 17 - 06:13 AM
punkfolkrocker 29 Jun 17 - 06:09 AM
Iains 29 Jun 17 - 05:41 AM
punkfolkrocker 29 Jun 17 - 05:12 AM
punkfolkrocker 29 Jun 17 - 04:35 AM
Jim Carroll 29 Jun 17 - 04:23 AM
Teribus 29 Jun 17 - 02:34 AM
punkfolkrocker 28 Jun 17 - 09:22 PM
McGrath of Harlow 28 Jun 17 - 09:10 PM
punkfolkrocker 28 Jun 17 - 09:04 PM
punkfolkrocker 28 Jun 17 - 08:53 PM
McGrath of Harlow 28 Jun 17 - 08:15 PM
Greg F. 28 Jun 17 - 06:54 PM
Jim Carroll 28 Jun 17 - 09:02 AM
Jim Carroll 28 Jun 17 - 08:49 AM
Iains 28 Jun 17 - 08:07 AM
Jack Campin 28 Jun 17 - 08:03 AM
Teribus 28 Jun 17 - 07:30 AM
Jack Campin 28 Jun 17 - 06:54 AM
Iains 28 Jun 17 - 06:24 AM
Iains 28 Jun 17 - 06:08 AM
Jack Campin 28 Jun 17 - 04:34 AM
Senoufou 27 Jun 17 - 01:39 PM
Jack Campin 27 Jun 17 - 01:22 PM
McGrath of Harlow 26 Jun 17 - 07:13 PM
Jack Campin 26 Jun 17 - 06:08 PM
McGrath of Harlow 26 Jun 17 - 06:02 PM
Jack Campin 26 Jun 17 - 04:35 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Jun 17 - 03:05 AM
akenaton 26 Jun 17 - 02:39 AM
McGrath of Harlow 25 Jun 17 - 10:00 PM
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Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Jun 17 - 11:12 AM

"We could and probably should fight it. But it would be entirely pro bono; I predict many months of argument and the benefit to us would be tiny compared our costs"

Damn right you should fight it - it was totally outrageous - as to time effort and costs - two letters, three if you involve your MP then it is an inter Government Department issue - on second thoughts definitely get your MP involved you can prod him to prod them along should they try and delay in the hope that it will just go away. It is worth doing so that it does not happen again.


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Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 Jun 17 - 11:06 AM

..but.. too much time dwelling in the past...

2017.. let's at least see our current government rise to the challenge
of positively tackling the present day social housing crisis,
brought more clearly into focus by this terrible Tower block tragedy...

Of course I'd judge the quality of social housing by the 'model' council estate I was fortunate enough to grow up on...


But I used to have a mate living in a tower block in Dagenham, that was a shithole [literally - the stench in the lifts],
with constant atmosphere of threat from other occupants..
Oddly enough he was fairly happy, he was in his 20s, it was an affordable home, it was what he was used to, it was close enough to the music venues and his social life in the city...
Maybe a nice council house with big gardens in the provinces would have driven him nuts..

So in that respect i can understand Grenfell survivors not wanting to be shipped out of London
and dispersed all over the country...


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Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Jun 17 - 10:58 AM

At this point of course we are all still EU citizens, and we will be until we lose that status, and all the rights it entitles us to, when Brexit finally kicks in. (As an Irish citizen born and living in England of course I retain all three citizenships...)
......
The claim that under Thatcher more council houses were built than under Blair is true, but it's misleading. Council house building was reduced steadily throughout Thatcher's years. By the time Major replaced her it had been virtually eliminated in England. Such social housing as continued to be added was through housing associations. When Labour came to power it continued to rely on housing associations to provide social housing and increased significantly the rate at which these were provided.

There was no move back towards council housing during the Blair Brown years. I believe that it was a serious mistake by those Labour governments not to restore the provision of council houses, or at least to ensure that houses sold by councils were replaced by building new ones, or repurchasing existing properties, on a one-for-one basis. But that's the kind of Labour government it was, the kind now called "moderate".

Jeremy Corbyn of course fought consistently against that policy. That was presented as being "hard left", though the policy he advocated was one which had been held in common with Conservatives before Thatcher came along, under such quasi-Marxists as Churchill, Eden, Macmillan, Alec Douglas-Hill and Heath.


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Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 Jun 17 - 10:44 AM

Inanes - did I mention textiles...???

..and even if that Factory & it's parent company were no longer competitive,
if younger directors and managers in that Quaker family made stupid decisions ?
It's closure and the sudden shock impact to the community need not have been so brutal and callous,
as was allowed and encouraged by thatcher's harsh regime and ideological culture of survival of the fittest...

.. oh well.. at least my dad had a rusty old bike in the shed to get on..

He should have kept his tandem from his courting years,
then the whole family could have strapped on to it with bundles of possessions and furniture,
and cycled off into a glowing future of new opportunity over the rainbow... 🙄


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Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Jun 17 - 10:30 AM

That's probably true, Terebus. But the person at the job centre wasn't waffling on: they were using a computer system and the first few questions were aimed at identifying EU citizens to filter them off somewhere else. That the program wasn't sophisticated enough to be sensible or that it perhaps correctly implements rules that are themselves poorly thought out were way beyond what anyone at the job centre had any control of. They had no means of authorising anything outside the computer, and it said no.

We could and probably should fight it. But it would be entirely pro bono; I predict many months of argument and the benefit to us would be tiny compared our costs. The timing was also bad: I would have tried to get our MP involved but as there was an election on at the time we did not have one.


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Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: Iains
Date: 29 Jun 17 - 10:20 AM

To blame the decline of the textile industry on Thatcher is ridiculous.
The industry had been in decline for decades before. On both machinery complexity and price it could not compete with competitors overseas. Consequently it lost market share, declined and was closed down.
Five minutes research on the internet will confirm this view repeatedly.


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Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Jun 17 - 10:00 AM

DMcG - 29 Jun 17 - 08:20 AM

Interesting story. I assume that your daughter is a British citizen - It actually states that in her British Passport.

No idea what the person in the Job Centre was waffling on about - your citizenship is not defined by where you have recently worked. Whoever it was in the Job Centre they should have been informed having stated what they said was that the question would be referred to the Home Office who would formally ask the Department of Work and Pensions why they were stripping a British Citizen of their nationality.


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Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 Jun 17 - 09:54 AM

Terry - As I clearly stated, my dad was a moderate shop steward who actively did his best to negotiate and avoid disruptive action by shop floor 'hot heads'...

Was my dad a management stooge to be ashamed of..???

That's a question I've had to contend with...

But... the factory was family owned by devout Quakers.
They sincerely believed in providing the best 'modern' [post war] conditions possible for their workforce.

New factory & machines, canteen, social club, educational lectures..
a full active community life..
and most importantly, a new build 'model' estate to house them...

This was the job my dad settled down to after national service and getting married.
The Quaker family inspired my dad's confidence and loyalty,
and as a worker and shop steward he proved himself as an asset
from before I was born in the late 50s
to the factories sudden shock closure in the 80s'

This factory estate was a real tangible good example stable friendly society.

Maybe it was an idyllic bubble in an other wise divided and fractious nation...???
The workers could not be blamed for believing they had job security and homes for life....

No coincidence the estate primary school annually sent enough of us on to grammar school in the nearest big town to justify the daily school bus..

Now I look back, I realise as never before how fortunate we were before thatcher...


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Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Jun 17 - 09:13 AM

What was the factory that went bust pfr?

Was it the benign factory that he [Your Dad] had spent most of his working life devoted to. - "devoted to what? Engaged as you yourself describe as "active trades unionism" - in the Britain of the 1950s, 1960s and 1970s I am fully aware of what "active trades unionism" meant.

Here is a little story for you pfr about "active trades unionism" for you.

The company, wholly owned by it's Chairman, was one of the largest manufacturers of knitwear in the UK and possibly Europe at the time. On arriving at work one morning he was told that the immigrant workers employed in the factory were going to go on strike as they did not feel that there were enough of "their own" foremen - Solution proposed was promote the required number from that group, which was done. At lunchtime he was told that the British workforce were going to go on strike as they were not prepared to be ordered about or work under the newly made-up foremen. He then called a meeting to be held in the Boardroom between union representatives of all groups threatening strike action and himself at four o'clock that afternoon. At that meeting both sides outlined their cases, which the Chairman summed up as follows:

Group A will call a strike because they feel unrepresented in terms of foremen on the shop floor - I am perfectly willing to promote men to those positions - However if I do allow that to happen, Group B will go on strike as those they represent will not work under those foremen. The representatives agreed that that was an accurate summation of the problem. On hearing this the Chairmen then told those present the following and I paraphrase:

"Gentlemen, I have a message I would like you to relate to those you represent. This business is without any shadow of doubt the largest employer in this area. It is a business that I have built up over the past decades and I own it lock, stock and barrel. Every nut and bolt of every machine, every brick and every pane of glass. I have made my money from this business and can retire whenever I wish. I will give those present in this Boardroom now until nine o'clock tomorrow morning to come up with a mutually agreeable solution to both parties without any strike being called. If for whatever reason you cannot do that, I will retire and shut the business down forthwith and then all of you can go and explain to the groups you represent why 5,000 people are now out of work. Good-day Gentlemen, this meeting is now over."

Needless to say he never heard another word about any strike being called - what that Chairman was facing was the sort of "active trades unionism" that was prevalent in the Britain of the 1950s, 1960s and much of the 1970s.


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Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 Jun 17 - 08:29 AM

Our resident hardcore tories are such preposterous stereotypes,
you'd be forgiven for thinking they were sit-com caricatures written by Ben Elton... 😜


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Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Jun 17 - 08:20 AM

I am not sure why so many people seem to think getting benefits is easy. Here is a little for the "get on your bike and look" brigade. This is anecdotal but worth saying all the same. My daughter worked abroad for a couple of years, most recently for around 3 months in Portugal. She then came back to the UK and immediately took a temporary job ovwr the Christmas period for around three months as well. As that ended she applied for a number of jobs and for job seekers allowance.

She has a British passport, was born and raised in the UK and lived and paid taxes here conrinuously except for around two years when she had a job abroad.

She was declined jobseekers allowance on the grounds she woŕked in Portugal and therefore was considered an EU citizen not a UK one. That he most recent job was in the UK was of no interest.

(She has another job now, btw)


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Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 Jun 17 - 08:08 AM

Inanes - btw.. learn to read..

I stated the community declined and fragmented..

what kind of blinkered twisted rightwing blockhead can misread that as

"people .. stay in one place, and sit on their arse bleating about how hard done by they are while shovelling away benefits like a trojan"...!!!???

How the f@ck could the families who lost their homes on the estate
when the town's main employer went bust have been staying there...???


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Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 Jun 17 - 07:56 AM

Iains - we already realised that about you..

My dad did get on his bike.. literally..

In his late 50s, on his 1950s bike, cyling miles up and down the busy dangerous dual carriage way in all weathers and seasons
seeking any kind of employer that would accept an aging unqualified factory worker with a history of active trades unionism..

He finally found one in a shite evil hot metal casting factory with no care or compassion for it's workers..
The much younger under educated thuggish workers on the shop floor treated him cruelly as a laughing stock,
and management dismissively told him like it or lump it.
..the total opposite of the relatively benign factory that he had spent most of his working life devoted to.

This daily exhausting cycling, and harsh hostile factory work conditions and macho bully management ethos rapidly hastened his physical and mental decline....

So don't worry Inanes..
you and your kind of toryism serve a purpose to strengthen my resolve & resilience, and focus my resistance..

thanks...


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Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: Iains
Date: 29 Jun 17 - 07:10 AM

PfR
unlike those you describe I anticipated Mr Tebbits most excellent advice some years before he actually gave it. On my first redundancy I got on my bike to find work, or in my case a jet. The next five years I was away from home. Subsequently I indulged in inter continental commuting to work, frequently in what would be considered hazardous environments.
So I am afraid any argument that people should stay in one place, and sit on their arse bleating about how hard done by they are while shovelling away benefits like a trojan, cuts very little ice with me.
Go try your arguments on someone with more sympathy than me - I have zero.


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Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 Jun 17 - 06:39 AM

Btw.. We finally got round to watching Ken Loach's "I,Daniel Blake" last night..

Of course our resident tory right propagandists will automatically dismiss this film
as a grossly exaggerated lefty distortion
of the happy fulfilled real lives of work-shy scrounging northern 'chavs 'n' oiks'... 🙄


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Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jun 17 - 06:34 AM

Technological advances bring about the improvements in today's society - our politicians make sure that the benefits of those advances are not wasted on "the wrong people"
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 Jun 17 - 06:32 AM

Terry - consider the provincial post war council house I grew up in and compare it to any of the shoddy hemmed in little boxes
slapped together since the 70s that are passed off as homes fit for families to live in...

.. are we really better off... are we happier...???


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Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jun 17 - 06:31 AM

"now like to shy away from any responsibility for electing not once, not twice, but THREE times the party they all decry as "New Labour""
New Labour resulted in an exodus of Socialists out of the Labour Perty they lost their traditional voters and relied on the support of middle-of--the-roaders, and undecideds
Even Keith boasted of voting for Blair.
Corbynheralded the return of many of those who defected from the Labour Party - New Labourites described it as "infiltration".
Thatcher, on the other hand, turned out to represent true Tory values, elitism, subservience by the poorest sections of society and a destruction of any semblance of voice working people had in their own lives.
She voiced her view of democracy while busting a gut to keep a mass murderer out of court by describing his mass murder, torture and rape as 'her kind of democracy'
No mass defections from her party while her three Governments tore the country in half and respectableised greed in Britain
That was true Toryism with the mask ripped away
World better off than forty years ago?
MAYBE FOR SOME
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 Jun 17 - 06:23 AM

..and while I think about this...

The town 'up the road' I now live in is much bigger and growing.

About 5 years ago there was much publicity about a new build out of town estate of affordable homes for young first time buyers..

Then it came to light that significant numbers of these new homes had already been pre-sold at bulk discount to corporate investment speculators for 'buy to rent'... 😣


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Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Jun 17 - 06:13 AM

Love the way "Labour Supporters" now like to shy away from any responsibility for electing not once, not twice, but THREE times the party they all decry as "New Labour". The likes of Shaw can claim never to have voted for New Labour but he did vote for anybody to keep the Tories out in a constituency where Labour didn't have a hope in hell - That Shaw is tantamount to voting for them.

Sure in 1997 Labour moved towards the right of the centre ground - it was the only chance they had of EVER getting into power and you the "supposed Labour supporters" cheered them on as they did so. Unfortunately like all Labour Governments they made a complete and utter bollocks of it, leaving the country in the mire as they were seen slinking out of office leaving "No money left" notes for their successors.

Corbyn and his "next-disaster-in-waiting" crew would be no different and could possibly be a damned sight worse judging by the content and supposed costing of their populist manifesto that various financial organisations and think tanks thought at best was 100% underestimated as far as the costs went (Labour hadn't even bothered to factor in the cost of leaving the EU and had underestimated the cost of scrapping student loans and cancelling the debt of existing students by over two-thirds)

Fact still remains pfr for every ONE council house built by Labour in the Blair & Brown era, Margaret Thatcher's Government built SEVENTY-FOUR.

Are we (The World) better off than we were 40 years ago?

DAMN RIGHT WE ARE:

World economy has doubled in size
Number living below the poverty line has halved
The middle-classes are the largest and fastest growing economic group throughout the world
Infant mortality rates have fallen
Life expectancy has increased


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Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 Jun 17 - 06:09 AM

Iains - did you live on my estate from the 1960s to 1980s.
Did you experience first hand the history I relate...???
Did you feel the despair of a community abandoned to joblessness and hardship.
Did you witness the decline and fragmentation of a stable community that had lasted decades..???

That is my EXPERIENCED and well considered reality..

I benefited from Grammar School and Higher education, and was equipped to experience all this with a balanced view of personal emotional ties and educated objectivity....

Your glib dismissal of thatcher bribing my neighbours for votes with fantasies of home ownership,
then abandoning them to survival of the fittest when the factory closed is clearly indicative of your harsh dismissive tory mindset of denial.

My dad was destroyed when the world he knew and trusted fell apart...
My family never recovered.

I watched that....

..and to think my dad had been a moderate shop steward who laboured hard to avoid shop floor disputes and risk aggro from his work mates,
to keep that factory running and productive..

Management must have thought he was a sucker...

May you wonder why folks like me care so much about the issue of social housing
and how that relates directly to this current disater and it's fall out...???


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Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: Iains
Date: 29 Jun 17 - 05:41 AM

PFR
you are making some sweeping generalisations that simply are not supported by the reality.
There is no simplistic explanation as to the decrease of social housing completions over time. Economic realities, greenbelt legislation, prolonged planning process, increasing population, immigration, changing aspirations, political will, etc, etc, all contribute.
To argue that people were suckered into buying council houses and instantly turned into cute little tories and then betrayed is a total nonsense. Also selling council houses was once supported by labour.

The type of housing produced was a child of its time, as can be seen by the changes in style over time. The units produced were not built up, or down, but simply reflected what was in vogue at the time.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-14380936

and for the architect of hi rise horrors.Was he a saint or sinner?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/the-legacy-of-le-corbusier-429194.html


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Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 Jun 17 - 05:12 AM

btw... I'd hazard a guess that any thatcher era social homes were a poor substitute for the houses on our council estate that became sold off and lost forever from the council social housing stock..

Post war 1950s red brick 3 bedroom terraced homes, each house with a massive front and back garden.
and plenty of space and grassed areas surrounding the connecting roads...

Good quality homes constructed to last, for families who were considered 'respectable working class',
who most probably nearly all worked in the factory the estate was built to house.

An excellent healthy environment and safe community to grow up in.

But that factory [ the areas main employer ] was allowed to go out of business within a couple of years of it's workforce being persuaded to start buying their own homes....

That was a shock these newly yuppified & torified mortgage holders didn't see coming...!!!
Certainly a bonanza at auction for all outsiders who were quick to recognise the ££££s value of these spacious ex council homes..

Any new build social developments in our town afterwards during thatchers reign were mostly pokey gardenless flats built on reclaimed demolition sites,
that were immediately stuffed with a new influx of jobless 'problem cases' and young families.
becoming squalid sink blocks very quickly soon after...

Yes why did New Labour fail so badly to reverse this thatchrite nightmare...???


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Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 Jun 17 - 04:35 AM

Terry - New Labour...!!!???

oh.. right.. them....

Just how does anyone begin to understand the anomaly that was New Labour...????? 😖


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Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jun 17 - 04:23 AM

"Margaret Thatcher or New Labour""
I always find this comparison amusing
Thatcherism and New Labour were were two sides of the same coin - Thatcher an elitist and (almost) self-declared Fascist in her heaped praise of a mass-murderer and Blair, a pale shadow who rose in the ranks to become a war-criminal - one a limp-wristed version of the other
Thatcher's main claims to fame was her repectabilising of greed and her turning homes into commodities by conning householders that in doing so they might better their lot in society
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Jun 17 - 02:34 AM

pfr google "who built more council houses Margaret Thatcher or New Labour"

Extract:

Tom Copley, Labour's housing spokesman in the capital, said that Margaret Thatcher's government had built more council flats and houses in a single year than New Labour's managed in its entire period in office.

This is correct. The official data shows that the Blair and Brown governments built 7,870 council houses (local authority tenure) over the course of 13 years. (If we don't include 2010 - the year when David Cameron became PM - this number drops to 6,510.) Mr Copley has contrasted this figure with the record of Mrs Thatcher's government, which never built fewer than 17,710 homes in a year.

Between 1997 and 2010, of the 2.61 million homes constructed, only 0.3% were local authority tenure. Mrs Thatcher's government supervised the building of a similar number of houses (2.63 million), but 18.9% were LA or 'council' properties.

To look at it another way, New Labour built an average of 562 council houses per year. And Mrs Thatcher's Conservatives? 41,343.


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Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 Jun 17 - 09:22 PM

.."festering right wing stuff"..

There always has been, and forever will be...

It's human nature and the natural order of things..
as the right wing like to constantly remind us 'naive idealistic' humanist lefties...

..still fingers crossed, roll on the next tory big time fa@ck up and snap election... 😜


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Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Jun 17 - 09:10 PM

There was rather a lot of festering right wing stuff to deal with in the 1940s.

And the technology of the internet and social media works both ways. It enabled the supporters of the left to counter and bypass the media chorus of hate and derision and distortion.


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Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 Jun 17 - 09:04 PM

btw... "Thatchers massive social housing program"....?????????????????????

...ermmm.. what..you mean convince factory workers to buy their discounted council houses;
then close down the factories making them redundant and defaulting on mortgages,
so these council house can be snapped up in bulk at auction by profiteering buy to let landlords....??? 😖

My parents nearly fell for that one...

'Fortunately' dad got made redundant whilst still renting,
so mum now still lives in the home she's loved for 50 years...


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Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 Jun 17 - 08:53 PM

..but we've also accumulated 70 more years of festering right wing resentment & bitterness...
and they also have the technology of the internet to spread their infectious malevolence... 😣


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Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Jun 17 - 08:15 PM

I'm a bit puzzled at the relevance Teribus thinks the fact that the population has risen in the last 70 years has to my hope that a new Labour government will act in the spirit of the 1945 governmment.

Clearly the changes which have come about in the intervening years mean that different problems are here and different solutions will be needed and will be possible. But what is needed is the wisdom to recognise those problems, and the determination to act to solve them. That's what I mean by "the spirit of 1945".

And in many ways we are in a much better position to do that than they were, in the wake of a terrible war. We are far wealthier as a society, have a far healthier population, and have technology which makes it incomparably easier to organise major projects, compared to 70 years ago.


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Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Jun 17 - 06:54 PM

Lets all celebrate the fruits of deregulation and privatization.


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Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jun 17 - 09:02 AM

"I hope when Labour comes to power under Corbyn t"
There's been an incredible double standard form the rabid rg-ight on this fire
May takes Britain into an election and tells the electorate that there is no "money tree" to promise to mend a broken health service
She doesn't get a working majority so she does a deal with a Northern Irish Party riven with scandal and with links to terrorism and is blackmailed into bunging them £Billion for their support - whoosh - up sprouts a money tree
Thousands made homeless and the law says they cant be housed in empty property - the right bust a gut to support that law
Part of May's deal with D.U.P. is that members of the military suspected of murder and torture should not be prosecuted - May agrees (and so do the rabid right on this forum)
Why does the law over property have to be adhered to in the case of homeless tenants while national and international law not count for anything the behavior of British soldiers abroad
Double standards or what?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jun 17 - 08:49 AM

Australia and New Zealand have just discovered combustible cladding
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: Iains
Date: 28 Jun 17 - 08:07 AM

I hope when Labour comes to power under Corbyn that that is a model of social housing we see once again, in the spirit of the government of 1945." - MGOH

I would say they had the chance after Thatchers massive social housing program. I wonder why they never managed to equal it?
The circumstances that lead to the horrendous death toll from this fire occurred on the Tory, Labour and coalition watch.
Trying to make political points out of it is futile and hardly helpful.


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Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: Jack Campin
Date: 28 Jun 17 - 08:03 AM

So, rather than stop corporations squirreling their profita away in offshore tax havens, we just leave the working class to burn in high-rise hovels, do we?

Remember how utterly fucking trivial the costs of preventing the Grenfell fire were.


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Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Jun 17 - 07:30 AM

"Harlow where I live was part of the wartime rebuilding and slum clearance programme Jim mentions, one of New Towns. Homes for about 60,000 people, with seven modest sized tower blocks to allow for people who might prefer that, and the rest of us in small houses. And it works well still, though it's been ground down a bit by changes outside our control.

I hope when Labour comes to power under Corbyn that that is a model of social housing we see once again, in the spirit of the government of 1945." - MGOH


Population of the United Kingdom in 1945 was ~49.19 million
Population of the United Kingdom in 2015 was ~65.14 million

In those intervening 70 years the Island hasn't got any bigger.
I hope that Labour never comes into power under Corbyn or any other leader - every time they do the country gets poorer and poorer.

I see John CuRtice has a poll of 3,000 people out today saying that 48% of them back Corbyn's tax and spend programme. Not really surprising really In March 2012 the Centre for Policy Studies, using ONS figures showed that 53.4 per cent of total households received more in benefits than they paid in taxes in 2010/11 – compared to 43.1 per cent in 1979 and 43.8 per cent in 2000/01. I dare say the percentage is even higher now.

Only problem with tax and spend is that the rich you wish to tax, are rich enough to move, leaving Corbyn & Co. to pay the bills by taxing those that are left (All those that were right having quite sensibly buggered off).

Come up with solutions Kevin - NOT pipedreams based on yesteryear.


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Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: Jack Campin
Date: 28 Jun 17 - 06:54 AM

...and the content of the article makes it clear that anyone who wanted a clue could have got one cheap in 1991.


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Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: Iains
Date: 28 Jun 17 - 06:24 AM

Apologies I forgot to highlight the date of the above article.

18:10, 4 December 2009


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Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: Iains
Date: 28 Jun 17 - 06:08 AM

A little relevant history.Ignore the UPVC comment.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/property/article-1232094/Do-uPVC-windows--cladding--help-fires-spread-high-rise-blocks.html


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Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: Jack Campin
Date: 28 Jun 17 - 04:34 AM

Inflammable cladding goes global, found in Australia and New Zealand:

https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/property/94182814/apartment-group-scanz-worried-more-combustible-apartments-will-be-found


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Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: Senoufou
Date: 27 Jun 17 - 01:39 PM

Brennan Bank Tower in Norwich (near the football stadium) has been found to have the same cladding. There may yet be others.
This is a total nightmare.

My Halls of Residence at Edinburgh Uni were ancient Victorian old things (Craigmillar Park) build of solid stone and not high rise. We thought they were grim, but there was never any fear of fire. I think they've been demolished now, or made into posh flats.


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Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: Jack Campin
Date: 27 Jun 17 - 01:22 PM

First sighting of the inflammable cladding in Scotland, on a newish student hall of residence:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-40414502

Owned by an insurance company. Hmmm.


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Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Jun 17 - 07:13 PM

I Intentionally right, Jack. I'd never speak of the UK, or even of Great Britain, as a nation.

So far as I've seen it's only been in England that these tests have revealed unsafe materials have been used, and reports from Scotland are that their tower blocks are safe. I haven't seen anything from Wales or Northern Ireland.
...................

From tonight's Newsnigh it appears that the officially recognised body supervising the industry in England has been specifically telling builders they should feel free to ignore the official regulations, and use significantly more combustible materials. And the government appears to have been happy for them to do so.

It's vital that the responsibility for this should be recognised as lying at the top. Not just at the top of course, in cabinet offices, but right down to the people installing stuff they knew was dangerous, and the jobsworths in the council.


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Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: Jack Campin
Date: 26 Jun 17 - 06:08 PM

Somewhere it went badly wrong on a national scale.

And you are using "national" right - nobody's found the same cladding problems in Scottish tower blocks, and they've checked. Whatever went wrong happened on some lower hierarchical level than the whole UK.


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Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Jun 17 - 06:02 PM

If the building regulations say fireproof materials are required in a type of building, there is an absolute obligation on whoever commissions the building to specify such materials.

If fireproof have been specified when the plans are approved, there is an absolute obligation on the builder to ensure that that is what is installed. Failure to do so is criminally irresponsible.

Somewhere it went badly wrong on a national scale. If all the people who must have been responsible get what they deserve we'll need some new prisons. I suggest we adapt a few of those tower blocks to provide the needed room.
........
Relying on tower blocks to provide mass housing was crazy. They suit some people, but not many. Harlow where I live was part of the wartime rebuilding and slum clearance programme Jim mentions, one of New Towns. Homes for about 60,000 people, with seven modest sized tower blocks to allow for people who might prefer that, and the rest of us in small houses. And it works well still, though it's been ground down a bit by changes outside our control.

I hope when Labour comes to power under Corbyn that that is a model of social housing we see once again, in the spirit of the government of 1945.


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Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: Jack Campin
Date: 26 Jun 17 - 04:35 AM

Standard practice - but officially illegal. Let's see how they explain that.

My father was an architect, designing middling-expensive public buildings for the New Zealand Government. NZ buildings often use timber, both because of availability and for earthquake resistance. But you want anything big to be adequately fireproof. He once got a report back from his clerk of works (construction manager, sort of) that he'd visited the site and found the workers brewing up their tea over a fire made with scraps of the "fireproof" timber. The supplier didn't get to do that again.


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Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jun 17 - 03:05 AM

"This corrupt mess was inevitable from the moment the tories started slashing local authority departments & public sector workforce;"
It goes back further than that PFK (did you know your initials sound like a substandard building material - sort of like MDF)
It is the inevitable consequences of the ghettoisation policies that were developed from the slum-clearances and wartime rebuilding - a profiteering corruption of Labour's plan to build 'homes fit for heroes to live in'
The 'high rise' upward development came about when it was decided that land was too expensive to be wasted on the poor, so they built upward and eventually, as cheaply as possible.
The first major disaster was Ronan Point - this one should be the last, but it probably won't be.
As a child, our first modern council home was in a three storey block on a new housing estate, Speke - soul-less enough, but capable of sustaining communities.
I've worked in these multi storey monstrosities - as had as tenants tried to turn them into homes they were never more than 'little boxes inside bigger boxes'
Something's gotta give!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Jun 17 - 02:39 AM

I've been in the trade all my life and the "regulations" are a complete joke. Many safety and building regulations regarding insulation have been completely reversed at some point, with some finally reverting to their original form.

It is a shambles. Trial and error seems to be the most important phrase in the rule book.
In fairness the problems concerning the properties of new materials and the fact that our climate is altering dramatically has an effect on relatively untried materials like plastics and expanded insulation.


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Subject: RE: Horrendous tower-block fire in W London
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jun 17 - 10:00 PM

Standard practice - but officially illegal. Let's see how they explain that.


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