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BS: Catholic Abuse of Children

Raggytash 20 Jul 17 - 11:37 AM
GUEST,Peter Laban 20 Jul 17 - 11:46 AM
Raggytash 20 Jul 17 - 11:47 AM
Senoufou 20 Jul 17 - 12:09 PM
Raggytash 20 Jul 17 - 12:11 PM
Senoufou 20 Jul 17 - 12:23 PM
GUEST,mg 20 Jul 17 - 12:24 PM
Joe Offer 20 Jul 17 - 12:45 PM
David Carter (UK) 20 Jul 17 - 12:53 PM
Donuel 20 Jul 17 - 01:01 PM
Joe Offer 20 Jul 17 - 01:25 PM
Greg F. 20 Jul 17 - 02:13 PM
Joe Offer 20 Jul 17 - 02:21 PM
Joe Offer 20 Jul 17 - 03:18 PM
Greg F. 20 Jul 17 - 03:57 PM
Joe Offer 20 Jul 17 - 04:24 PM
Greg F. 20 Jul 17 - 05:21 PM
Steve Shaw 20 Jul 17 - 05:41 PM
Senoufou 20 Jul 17 - 05:46 PM
Joe Offer 20 Jul 17 - 05:53 PM
Steve Shaw 20 Jul 17 - 05:57 PM
Joe Offer 20 Jul 17 - 06:03 PM
Greg F. 20 Jul 17 - 06:23 PM
Steve Shaw 20 Jul 17 - 06:23 PM
Greg F. 20 Jul 17 - 07:14 PM
Joe Offer 20 Jul 17 - 08:47 PM
Joe Offer 21 Jul 17 - 12:44 AM
Senoufou 21 Jul 17 - 02:40 AM
akenaton 21 Jul 17 - 02:45 AM
Joe Offer 21 Jul 17 - 03:14 AM
Senoufou 21 Jul 17 - 04:10 AM
Iains 21 Jul 17 - 05:42 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Jul 17 - 06:07 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Jul 17 - 06:25 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Jul 17 - 06:28 AM
Iains 21 Jul 17 - 06:47 AM
akenaton 21 Jul 17 - 08:28 AM
Greg F. 21 Jul 17 - 08:30 AM
McGrath of Harlow 21 Jul 17 - 08:32 AM
Senoufou 21 Jul 17 - 08:38 AM
Steve Shaw 21 Jul 17 - 09:20 AM
bobad 21 Jul 17 - 09:33 AM
Nigel Parsons 21 Jul 17 - 09:40 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Jul 17 - 10:15 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Jul 17 - 10:22 AM
Joe Offer 21 Jul 17 - 10:43 AM
akenaton 21 Jul 17 - 11:17 AM
akenaton 21 Jul 17 - 11:24 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Jul 17 - 11:31 AM
Kenny B 21 Jul 17 - 12:02 PM
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Subject: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Raggytash
Date: 20 Jul 17 - 11:37 AM

For reasons unknown my previous thread was closed, however Joe Offer maintained that just 2 members of the Catholic clergy were involved.

The report I read on the BBC News suggested a figure of 49 members of the clergy.

One of the factors that has allowed such abuse to continue unsuppressed is the opposition to open debate of the issue.

The article on the BBC was published on the 18th July perhaps someone would provide a link, doing on my android is nigh on impossible.

Thanks


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Subject: RE: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 20 Jul 17 - 11:46 AM

'49 confirmed perpetrators' is consistently reported across several international papers I read.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Raggytash
Date: 20 Jul 17 - 11:47 AM

This of course should have been posted in the BS section, perhaps a kind Mod could relocate it.

One further issue is that a suggestion was made giving quite low estimates as to the number of children abused, the true figure is far higher at over 500.

Not that numbers should in any way be used to excuse the actions of the prepetrators.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Senoufou
Date: 20 Jul 17 - 12:09 PM

Those figures, Raggytash and Peter, were what I too understood to be correct. In fact the place was a huge ring of paedophiles and child abusers, and the victims were legion. There may be many more who don't wish to come forward.

As I said on the initial 'removed' thread, I watched the choir singing on Youtube, and to think innocent boys like this were treated as mere objects for sexual gratification by so-called 'clerics' made my blood boil.
There were instances of withholding food, severe beatings and intense bullying.
It reminded me of Charles Dickens' Dotheboys Hall with added paedophilia.
The whole thing must be investigated openly and people brought to justice.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Raggytash
Date: 20 Jul 17 - 12:11 PM

Sadly Senoufou it won't be discussed if threads about it are suppressed.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Senoufou
Date: 20 Jul 17 - 12:23 PM

As long as posters on here restrict themselves to the necessity for investigation of this particular case, and don't start tub-thumping or insulting all Roman Catholics, and all religions, and then attack each other with nasty, rude and unpardonable spite...(hmmm, is this likely??) then the thread may be allowed to remain.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 20 Jul 17 - 12:24 PM

It is endemic. Read abuse tracker every day. Keep an eye on australia in coming days. The creepiest cardinal is going on trial...he was absolutely horrid to survivors and their families. Guam, india, mexico. We have only seen the tip of the iceberg. Read up on cardinal from new york. Pope is nice but does nothing about it. To many clerics it is normal and they can not see the devestation. It is of course not limited to catholics.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Joe Offer
Date: 20 Jul 17 - 12:45 PM

Sorry about the previous thread closure. Apparently, one of the moderators considered humorous side talk of bromances to be unacceptable.

Ah, here's the article:http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-40643253

Hundreds of German choir boys abused over six decades - report
18 July 2017

At least 547 young members of the Regensburger Domspatzen boys choir in Germany were subjected to physical and in some instances sexual abuse over a period of 60 years, a new report says.
The report accuses 49 members of the Catholic Church of carrying out the abuse between 1945 and the early 1990s.
The alleged perpetrators are unlikely to face criminal charges because of the amount of time that has elapsed.
Victims said the experience was like "a prison, hell and a concentration camp".
The alleged physical abuse relates to children attending both the Regensburger Domspatzen's pre-school and high school, according to the lawyer tasked with investigating the abuse, Ulrich Weber.
Among those singled out for criticism in the report was former choirmaster Georg Ratzinger, elder brother of retired Pope Benedict XVI.
Mr Weber said that while Mr Ratzinger, now 93, had no knowledge of sexual abuse, "one can accuse him of looking the other way and failing to intervene".
He was head of the choir from 1964 to 1994 and denies any knowledge of what went on. It was "never discussed" while he ran the choir, he has said.
He has in the past admitted to occasionally slapping boys but insisted he never beat them until they were "black and blue".
Representatives from the Regensburger Domspatzen boys choir have yet to officially respond to the report.
'Culture of silence'
Presenting his findings on Tuesday, Mr Weber said the investigation had found 500 cases of physical abuse and 67 instances of sexual abuse over six decades.
However, he said he was unable to contact or speak directly to a number of former students and said he estimated the true number of victims to be as high as 700.
Of the 49 church members who carried out the abuse under what was described as a "culture of silence", nine were found to have been involved in sexual abuse, Mr Weber added.
He said the alleged perpetrators had been identified but were not expected to face criminal charges because the alleged crimes took place too long ago to be legally valid.
He said the victims described their experiences at the boarding schools in southern Germany as "the worst time of their lives, characterised by fear, violence and hopelessness".
The church has previously offered to pay the Regensburger victims compensation of between €5,000 (£4,436; $5,776) and €20,000.
Criticism of cardinal
The 1,000-year-old choir was initially rocked by allegations of widespread sexual abuse in 2010.
A 2016 report into the allegations found that 231 children had been abused.
Mr Weber also criticised Regensburg Bishop Gerhard Ludwig Müller, who is now a cardinal, for the weaknesses of the initial review of the scandal when it first came to light in 2010. The cardinal has rejected his findings.
The Catholic Church has been hit with a number of scandals in recent years. In the 1990s, revelations emerged of widespread abuse in Ireland and at the turn of the century, more cases of abuse were revealed in more than a dozen countries.
The UN has accused the Vatican of "systematically" adopting policies allowing priests to sexually abuse thousands of children.
Since his election, Pope Francis has appeared to offer new hope to victims, with a call for action on sex abuse in the Church.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 20 Jul 17 - 12:53 PM

There is an investigation in Australia also.


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Subject: RE: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Jul 17 - 01:01 PM

To my ear the phrase 'catholic abuse of children' is awkward and misleading. Abuse of children by Catholic priests seems more precise.

Personally I like polemics, they convey outrage, but I have learned there are people who do not like such vehemence or facts.
-not that there is anything wrong with that-


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Subject: RE: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Joe Offer
Date: 20 Jul 17 - 01:25 PM

The information I got the other day was from a Wikipedia article on the Regensburger Domspatzen. An excerpt:
    Sexual abuse scandals
    In the wake of worldwide scandals, incidents of sexual abuse at the choir school became public in March 2010, some of them dating back to 1958. The two named perpetrators both died in 1986. Former choir director Georg Ratzinger has denied knowledge of sexual abuse. The case has taken additional prominence because Georg Ratzinger is the brother of Pope Benedict XVI. A report in 2017 stated that at least 547 boys were victims of physical abuse, sexual abuse or both between the years 1945 and 1992 and that current Bishop Rudolf Voderholzer had announced plans to offer victims compensation of between 5,000 and 20,000 euros ($5,730 US and $22,930) each by the end of the year. The report faulted Ratzinger "in particular for 'looking away' or for failing to intervene." The report also stated that former Bishop Gerhard Ludwig Muller, whom Pope Benedict XVI later named Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, bears "clear responsibility for the strategic, organizational and communicative weaknesses" for his poor efforts to investigate claims of past abuse when they surfaced.


I also gave a link to a July 18 article in the Bavarian Süddeutsche Zeitung that dealt mostly with the compensation being paid to the victims.

There was a Reuters article Tuesday in The Guardian that said there were more than 500 boys physically and sexually abused. The investigator, Ulrich Weber, "found that 547 former pupils had probably been victims of physical and/or sexual violence. Of those, 67 suffered sexual abuse. He blamed 49 individuals, 45 of whom were physically violent and nine of whom were believed to have committed sexual violence."

I did not see anything that said how many of those 49 people accused were priests. It would seem unlikely that there would be 49 priests associated with the choir over half a century, but I suppose it's possible.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Jul 17 - 02:13 PM

For reasons unknown my previous thread was closed

I could make an educated guess at the reason and the person who closed it........ oh, never mind.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Joe Offer
Date: 20 Jul 17 - 02:21 PM

Yep, Greg, she didn't like me talking about our bromance....
I think she was trying to protect you from scandal, and she didn't like me calling you Greg the Fraud.

But anyhow, I think it's important to refer to factual information talk about these child abuse matters. I think it helps to refer to facts in discussion of just about anything.

Sometimes I think I'm in the minority on that.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Joe Offer
Date: 20 Jul 17 - 03:18 PM

I was in Catholic schools for 8 years of grade school, four of high school, and four of college. Those last 8 years were in a seminary, where I lived in a dormitory. I had a tough first semester of first grade. All I remember is that the nun made me sit in a corner all the time. My folks pulled me out of that school, and my experiences in Catholic school after that were good. There was one priest in the seminary that I hated, but that was because he was a mean bastard, not that he was physically abusive. Mostly I really liked my teachers. I had mostly nuns in grade school and mostly priests as teachers in the seminary, very few lay teachers. I didn't experience anything one would call abuse in those 16 years. I know hundreds of priests, and I do know some who were accused of sexual offenses - maybe 5 percent of the priests I've known are on the list of offenders at http://bishopaccountability.org/. Some of those who were accused, I expected would get into trouble sooner or later. But most were not people I would suspect of having any tendency toward abusing children.

But abuse was part of education in the not-too-distant past. Many people took "spare the rod and spoil the child" to mean that abuse was a necessary part of child-rearing. I've seen it often in the way coaches treat athletic teams, although I didn't experience that myself. I've seen a few Scout leaders whose treatment of kids bordered on physical abuse - and one who was removed because of sexual abuse of his own children.

I worked for 5 summers at a Catholic boys' camp, and we had one counselor whose reckless conduct bordered on abuse. One time, he drove the camp truck, full of kids, at 90 miles an hour. One time, one of the kids forced another to do a blowjob on a third boy - and somehow, this counselor was on duty in the cabin and unaware of what was going on. "Mooning" (exposing one's bare rump to the world) was popular at the time, and this counselor did it often. He got fired when the camp director (a priest who was preoccupied with a blonde social worker we called "Barbie Doll") finally figured out how crazy he was.

Now, where I encountered abuse, was in Basic Training in the U.S. Army at Fort Leonard Wood, Missouri in 1970, at the age of 21. There has always been a train of thought in the military and law enforcement (and boys' choirs and military academies and some residential schools), that abuse is a necessary part of training - to "toughen up" those young men and give them the discipline they needed. Our fort was under scrutiny because several recruits had died of meningitis the previous winter. Some of the drill sergeants, especially younger ones, were reluctant to accept the controls that had been imposed upon them, and they did whatever they could to bend the rules so they could mete out what they thought was a proper amount of abuse. One drill sergeant took a special disliking to me, and subjected me to a constant flow of demeaning verbal abuse and extra duty. He never touched me, but he did everything he could to break me. I finally had it, and blew up with a stream of profanity and a list of all the things he'd done to me. I was sure I'd be punished, but I'd had it. The drill sergeant was shocked, and almost seemed scared. He left me alone after that. I think he felt threatened by the thought that I had a list in my head of all the things he'd done. But those 8 weeks in Basic Training was the most miserable time in my life.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Jul 17 - 03:57 PM

Joe, everything in this world doesn't revolve around you. You certainly ARE in the minority about a LOT of issues.

My advice: get over it.

Or seek professional help.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Joe Offer
Date: 20 Jul 17 - 04:24 PM

Oh, OK, Greg. What's THAT all about?

Scorned bromance, I guess. Don't pay it no nevermind, folkies. The rejection hurts so incredibly bad, but I'll get over it...

Here's a link to the Weber report on the Regensburger Domspatzen:


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Jul 17 - 05:21 PM

No, Joey The Hypocrite - excuse me, but as you can call people names swith impunity, I thought I'd follow your example - - that's about the fact your limited personal experiences don't have squat to do with the subject of this thread - unless of course you've abused children yourself or have personal knowledge of persons that have done so.

So, Joey - since many folks on this thread disagree with your viewpoint, can we expect you'll make it disappear?


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jul 17 - 05:41 PM

I attended Catholic schools for 13 years. The last seven were spent at an all-boys school run by priests and brothers. The only female on the staff, except for the cooks, was the school nurse, and even that was a matter of doubt. I did receive what I now recognise to be a lot of ridiculous "education" but I never witnessed or experienced any sexual abuse, nor heard any rumours of it. I went on several school journeys too - no problems. Like most schools there was corporal punishment, in our case allegedly administered via a leather implement of some sort, but it was administered sparsely, never to me, and I never heard reports of bare bottoms. Yet when I visited the school website's message board recently I saw a load of really serious accusations of abuse dating from the time I was there. I couldn't get my head round that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Senoufou
Date: 20 Jul 17 - 05:46 PM

Greg, have you any idea at all what it must be like to have suffered abuse (of any sort)? For Joe to have shared on here his experiences undergoing Basic Training at the young age of 21 must have been rather hard for him. The abuse of the choirboys included physical, verbal and bullying. Joe has suffered those too and wanted presumably to express how it felt.
To tell him to 'get over it' is appallingly rude and unkind.
This thread isn't about being completely nasty to other posters, including Joe.
I can't speak for other contributors on this thread, but for myself I find your abrasive and confrontational style childish, annoying and deplorable, and not at all in the spirit of Mudcat.
You need to get yourself some manners and some humanity.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Joe Offer
Date: 20 Jul 17 - 05:53 PM

In the U.S., the term molestation is often used to describe the sexual abuse of children; and I think that the simple term "abuse" is often understood to be physical or verbal, usually without sexual connotations. Most of us who have children or have worked with children, have at times been guilty of such abuse - the kid gets out of control, and we respond with a slap or a cruel word. Sometimes, we're convinced that such abuse is the right thing to do, although we'd never dream of doing something sexual to a child. Whatever the case, sexual abuse is almost always separated from physical and verbal abuse in the U.S.

There doesn't seem to be that separation in stories that come from Europe. When I see an article from Europe that says that 547 children were abused, my first thought is that they were all sexually abused. I felt relieved when I saw that 67 were victims of sexual abuse, and the others of varying levels of physical abuse. And we don't know what those levels are, or their frequency. Maybe some were just a slap on the face or the fingers. Maybe some required medical treatment. We don't know.

When I was a camp counselor in the 1960s, I would sometimes calm down unruly boys by forcing them to sit on my lap while I held htem tight around the waist and talked to the calmly. That never hurt anyone, and it prevented the kid from hurting anyone - but I understand that practice is now unacceptable.

One time, when a kid was completely out of control, I grabbed him by the wrist and squeezed until he settled down. I was appalled to see a bit of a bruise on his wrist. Was I abusive?

This abuse happens everywhere - not only in institutions that we don't like. Sometimes, it's done by people we know and love. In fact, the people we love most probably do it just as often as the people we hate. Isn't that right, Greg?

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jul 17 - 05:57 PM

Er, with respect I think that Joe's been upping the ante somewhat more than necessary lately. He does it to me but I can't be arsed to get too worked up about it. I have too much gardening to do.

Anyway, dunno why I posted my last post. All I can say is that the saddest aspect of sexual abuse in the Church is the tendency of the powers that be to cover it up. If priests were allowed to be happily married chaps like me I think the problem would, well, not disappear maybe, but be much reduced. But the honest thing to do is to address abuse issues head on, not try to pretend that they don't really happen.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Joe Offer
Date: 20 Jul 17 - 06:03 PM

I'd agree with your comments about child abuse and coverups, Steve.

And yes, I've been upping the ante, because I've heard too many complaints about a small, combative sect taking over the BS forum. I'm hoping maybe that can be fixed by some substantive, fact-based discussion, laced with a little humor directed at those who fail to make a positive contribution to the discussion.

I know some people who got a little nervous about my "bromance" remarks...

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Jul 17 - 06:23 PM

a small, combative sect taking over the BS forum.

Is this "sect" extraterrestrials? Muslims? Scientologists?

Or just persons who disagree with you?

Of course, as a "mod" or a not mod, depending upon which of your posts we choose to believe- you don't have to conform to the regulations that everyone else needs to comply with.

Does that factor into this?

With all due respect,

Greg The Fraud.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jul 17 - 06:23 PM

"Maybe some were just a slap on the face or the fingers."

You really didn't need to do that Greg mention, did you, Joe? Anyway. Your mention of rapped fingers reminded me of a tale that's gone into Shaw family history. My mum had tried to teach me to to do my letters before I went to school, and, by the time I went, I was pretty good at doing capitals. But when my teacher, Miss Scanlon, tried to get the class to do lower-case letters, I refused. Lower case was not what my mum had taught me and NOBODY overruled my mum. End of.

So a frustrated Miss Scanlon seized a six-inch ruler and bashed me on the fingers, firmly but very gently, I admit. But I wasn't having it. I marched out of school, five years old, straight to the police station, half a mile from the school, where I reported Miss Scanlon for hitting me FOR NOTHING! The desk sergeant was very nice and he took me seriously and even wrote things down. Eventually my dad came to rescue me from the police station. Miss Scanlon was mortified that I'd reported her to the police and was very nice to me from then on. She even let me carry her handbag on the way to church on holy days of obligation. Years later, I got to know her a bit better and realised what a solid gold woman she was. The house in Radcliffe where she lived on her own is still there and I never fail to remember her as I drive past it on my way to my mum and dad's. She died almost twenty years ago aged 90 and is buried in Radcliffe Cemetery.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Jul 17 - 07:14 PM

Greg, have you any idea at all what it must be like to have suffered abuse (of any sort)?

Damn right I do, and I HAVE, as have several generations of my family - both Jewish and Irish, since the 1840's.

Give it a frickin' rest. Who the hell do you think you are?


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Joe Offer
Date: 20 Jul 17 - 08:47 PM

Steve, the Miss Scanlon story was great. As for Greg - well, I don't want him to feel I'm ignoring him. He gets really testy when he feels he's being ignored. I actually like the guy - but don't tell him that. It's fun needling him.

When I was in Third Grade (age 8) in a Catholic school in Detroit, we had Mrs. Ross. Mrs. Ross had a reputation for throwing chalkboard erasers at boys when thye misbehaved. She threw a lot of erasers, and it always seemed to make us laugh. Nobody ever got hurt or even got hurt feelings, but I suppose some people nowadays would think it horribly abusive.

And then in Eighth grade in Wisconsin, Sister Raymonde was principal. If you did something in class that the teacher couldn't deal with, you went to Sister Raymonde. If your offense was bad enough, you'd get swatted on the behind with her canoe paddle. I never heard anyone say that it hurt. The word was that wind resistance slowed the paddle down enough that it couldn't hurt you. Sister Raymonde administered punishments with a smile and a sense of humor, and kids loved her. The "bad kids" seemed to try to get sent to Sister Raymonde.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Joe Offer
Date: 21 Jul 17 - 12:44 AM

I was a college student in the seminary for the Catholic Archdiocese of Milwaukee from 1966-70. Even then, the archdiocese was aware that there was a problem with priests molesting children. As a result, seminarians were subjected to stringent psychological screening. In the second year of college, we were all given a battery of psychological tests, and we each had an interview with a psychiatrist. One Monday morning early in my third year of college, 10 classmates were gone, without explanation from anyone. We figured out that the ten had been removed because they had failed the psychological testing. Few of those who were removed were big surprises - they were all pretty strange. I was never aware of any sexual abuse problems while I was in the seminary, but I see at http://bishop-accountability.org that two seminary professors I knew were accused of sexual misconduct and were removed from ministry. In all, I knew 13 of the Milwaukee priests on the "accused" list for Milwaukee and two from Sacramento. The Sacramento priests were both good friends of mine, but I saw nothing about them that raised any question in my mind. The accusations against one of the Sacramento priests are just too much to deny. The other one was exonerated.

In the 1970s, the Catholic bishops of the United States pooled their money and built several state-of-the-art treatment centers for priests with mental health and addiction problems, and sexual problems including molestation of children. The psychiatrists who staffed these centers promised sure results, and the bishops believed them. Troubled priests were sent to the centers for 6 months to a year of treatment, and then were sent home when they were certified as "cured." Many bishops reassigned priests to new assignments as soon as they came home with a certificate of rehabilitation. It took a number of years to determine that a number of "cured" priests just went right back to their previous misconduct. Some were sent from one parish to another, hoping that "cured" priests would find a good fit in a second parish if they didn't fit into the first assignment.

Mind you, there were far too many dioceses who just turned a blind eye to the problem of molesting priests - I think that mostly they were afraid of the cost of reparations for these criminal priests, and they put their finances above the concerns of the victims of these crimes. I think that a good number of dioceses, including my own Sacramento Diocese, did their best to handle each sexual abuse case quickly and with compassion for the victims - even back in the 1980s.

There was almost no press coverage of the sexual abuse problems in the Catholic Church for a long, long time. In 1983, the National Catholic Reporter published its first story about the Catholic sex abuse scandal. It has reliably cranked out articles about church sex abuse ever since - and many bishops hate this publication. I've subscribed to the newspaper since it was first published in the 1960s.

The sex scandal was hidden by the Catholic Church in Europe for a much longer time, and I don't know why that coverup succeeded for so long. Maybe because they didn't have a nasty little newspaper like the National Catholic Reporter, or maybe because the Catholic Church in Europe was more often a "state religion."

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Senoufou
Date: 21 Jul 17 - 02:40 AM

Greg, how dare you address me like that???? You rude, objectionable chip-on-shoulder nitwit!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Jul 17 - 02:45 AM

I'm beginning to worry, I seem to be agreeing strongly with every post from Sen...:0)   I suspect Sen is more worried than me about that.

IMO this thread and its predecessor were submitted in a vindictive attempt to get at Joe......I also suspect that Joe is well aware of this and even so, has taken time to explain his views on the matter.

The Catholic Church does NOT promote the sexual assault of teenagers and young men by it's priesthood, is opposed to homosexuality in all its teachings, supports family values etc. The fact that these crimes are taking place in such numbers points to the psychological health, or ill health of the perpetrators.
Where the Catholic Church fails in my opinion, is in not properly vetting the men who enter the priesthood, perhaps it would be politically incorrect to do so, but a large number of mainly young men would be saved from severe mental problems in later life due to these criminal actions.

Would it really be impossible to amend the celibacy rule and have "family values" promoted by people who actually know something about family life?


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Joe Offer
Date: 21 Jul 17 - 03:14 AM

Ake, if they had amended the celibacy rule, I'd be a priest today. I'm very active in church activities, and people often think I AM a priest. I applied again for the priesthood in 1996 after I got a divorce and annulment, but they weren't interested. At the time, my diocese was recruiting priests almost exclusively from third world countries. I think that all this will eventually force the Catholic Church to restructure the function of priesthood, perhaps into a less elevated and more temporary position - but it won't happen in my lifetime.

Ake, you say that the Catholic Church fails in not vetting the men who enter the priesthood, but I described above the "extreme vetting" process I went through in the seminary.

I think the Catholic Church fails by setting priests apart from real life, in a position where actual human beings cannot live. I can't tell you how many priests I know who are profoundly unhappy. The only happy ones seem to be the ones in religious orders who live in community. There are wonderful men and women in my congregation who would make excellent priests. I'm sure I could pick twenty who would do a better job than any of the priests who were assigned to my parish in the 15 years I have been there.

And no, I don't think this thread was started as an affront to me. It's a legitimate question that ought to be discussed seriously.

Oh, another thing. I have no strong prejudice against homosexuals, but I do feel uncomfortable around heterosexuals and homosexuals who seem to sexualize every moment. There was a time before the "purge" in my seminary, when the atmosphere had a sexual charge to it. There were times I felt I was the only straight guy in the place. That's not true - there was a heterosexual majority there, but the heterosexuals weren't out being sexy every moment. It was a very uncomfortable feeling. I hope I've been able to say that without being offensive to anyone's sexual orientation, because it's not about whether one is hetero or homosexual. It's about "hitting on" people all the time, instead of just interacting as friends and letting a sexual attraction grow natually if it does.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Senoufou
Date: 21 Jul 17 - 04:10 AM

No akenaton, you've got me wrong. I may have disagreed in the past with some of your opinions and standpoints, but you have never been aggressively rude or insulting to me. One can differ without being nasty, and you have always been civil.

I admire Joe for continuing to post in depth about the thread title. He obviously knows much about the Catholic religion and this particular case, and his information is interesting and informative. He also hasn't 'bitten'anybody. I cannot understand why anyone would want to insult or mock him.

"...who do you think you are?..." Well I know exactly who I am and what I stand for. Do you?


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Iains
Date: 21 Jul 17 - 05:42 AM

Sadly child abuse is not restricted to the Catholic church. Many religions and organisations are equally guilty.

http://childfriendlyfaith.org/information-about-abuse-neglect-by-religion/

Having had 7 years of a Jesuit education, I can say that I had absolutely no suspicion of anything untoward happening to any of the pupils during my time there, other than having a blackboard duster hurled across the room or getting beaten by whalebone encased in leather. Then it was the norm. There was not the slightest hint of any sexual predation although it is clear that it happened elsewhere.

If anything can be worse than a deviant priesthood it must be forces representing the UN that are guilty of child abuse. This is an organisation with a specific mission to protect the rights of children.
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/united-nations-soldiers-paedophilia-un-child-rape-ngo-staff-a7648791.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jul 17 - 06:07 AM

Is Greg too nasty to be a part of this community.
Have not enough decent, moderate people like Sen been driven away from the forum?

He usually does not even express views on the topic under discussion.
(A bunch of his friends are dominating the Labour thread while refusing to enter debate on it right now.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jul 17 - 06:25 AM

Clerical abuse was first documented by a clerical scribe writing The Annals around the time The Book of Kells was being put together - there is little doubt that is has been a part of enclosed religious life since time immemorial
What we are seeing is a gradually more enlightened time coming to terms with sexuality and wronging old bad habits - certain sections of the religious population seem to be having trouble with that
As Iains rightly points out, this type of abuse is not confined to the Church - it happens wherever unrestricted power is wielded over the weak and vulnerable - nor is the abuse confined to sexual behaviour
It most certainly is not confined to the Catholic Church the **** has yet to hit the fan over similar abuses in other religions.
Those Christians who have targeted Muslims over their attitudes to sex need to set about building themselves a fall-out shelter
It has nothing whatever to do with homosexuality - homosexuals are no more prone to rape and paedophilia than are hetros
In my opinion homophobia is a sickness - not homosexuality
Clerical - or any serial abuse within institutions is about power and distorted sexuality due to enforced celibacy - it is also down to availability of victims
I'd love to be a fly on the wall when Ake goes into Wandsworth Nick or The Scrubs and calls the inmates a bunch of 'disease ridden poofdahs' - you could sell tickets for those particular cage fights
The main criminals in the case of Catholic clerical abuse are those who covered up and facilitated the rapes of children - the church leaders from the bishops to the Vatican
The latter still refuses access to documented evidence that would give closer to the victims and the surviving families of those whose lives were scarred and ruined even to the point of suicide
In Ireland, details are now emerging of the possibility of manslaughter by clerical institutions - secret mass graves and covered up deaths of maltreated children under institutional care
The most positive   
The past and current revelations are a speck compared to the diarrhea storm that is quite likely to hit the fan
Probaly the most positive thing to come out of all this is that, at long last, the grip of the church on the minds of the people appears to be weakening - some way to go but early days yet
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jul 17 - 06:28 AM

"Is Greg too nasty to be a part of this community."
Isn't it about time your started sorting out your own behaviour rather than concentrating on that of others Keith?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Iains
Date: 21 Jul 17 - 06:47 AM

Jim.

https://www.irishcentral.com/news/boys-town-founder-fr-flanagan-warned-irish-church-about-abuse-46390952-237644371

Thus far the politicians have not had too many stones upturned. No doubt their day will come.
Were Elm House and Haut de la Garenne discredited enquiries, squashed, or still to tell their story?


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Jul 17 - 08:28 AM

Jim.....I'm afraid the stats say something different.


Catholic League view


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Jul 17 - 08:30 AM

how dare you address me like that????

Well, Sen, back up and re-read a few of your posts and then ask yourself the same qiestion.

GTF


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Jul 17 - 08:32 AM

I think Jim, you'd rightly object to a thread with the title "Muslim Abuse of children".


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Senoufou
Date: 21 Jul 17 - 08:38 AM

"...Give it a frickin' rest. Who the hell do you think you are?..."

Greg, I have never, either in my life or on here, ever ever spoken to anyone in such a fashion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Jul 17 - 09:20 AM

Keith, we are trying to rescue the Labour thread from your insane and obsessive grip. If that means discussing the heights of mountains, or Dave, well so be it. Your input is highly repressive, and responding to it is worse than pointless.

Joe, one problem in this sexy-obsessive world of ours is the language we use. Priests are "celibate." We have "gay weddings" and "same-sex marriage." You'd think that the average priest went around all day expending his energy resisting sexy urges instead of getting on with his priestly duties. You'd think that gay people shunned the mundane vicissitudes of everyday life so that they can spend all their time "being gay." One clown here insists on referring to "homosexual marriage." Defining a long-term relationship via a reference to sexual proclivities in that way only is a gross misrepresentation. Well I've been happily married for forty years and, while you don't get to hear about my sex life, I can tell you without fear or favour that I haven't quite got sex on the brain all day (I used to, but I had it lowered). There are lots of lovely young women on holiday here at the moment and I confess to being one of those blokes who has enough of an "aesthetic" streak in him to have a very subliminal sexy thought at frequent intervals (though not quite every six seconds). But as I go about whatever it is I go about every day, it's on the back burner. So I agree with you. We can have great, well-balanced lives without sex being upfront all the time. That's just annoying. I like the openness of modern life but there can be casualties.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: bobad
Date: 21 Jul 17 - 09:33 AM

Keith, we are trying to rescue the Labour thread from your insane and obsessive grip.

By putting it into the insane and obsessive grip of your cabal of bullies.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 21 Jul 17 - 09:40 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: McGrath of Harlow - PM
Date: 21 Jul 17 - 08:32 AM

I think Jim, you'd rightly object to a thread with the title "Muslim Abuse of children".

Unfortunately the original title is open to being misread.

While the Roman Catholic church (and many of the public) seem to believe that the word 'catholic' relates exclusively to that church, its meaning is actually much wider.

Much as 'Conservatives', and 'conservatives' have different meanings. Putting the term at the start of a sentence (or heading) will force it to start with an upper case letter whether that is the intended use or not.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jul 17 - 10:15 AM

"Thus far the politicians have not had too many stones upturned. No doubt their day will come."
I'm not sure what your link was about Iains, the power of the church was such that many people knew about it and did nothing while many who claimed it was going on were ignored or vilified
Particularly horrific was the case of the priest who committed more rapes of children than any other, Brendan Smythe, it's difficult to find out exactly how many rapes he committed, but it's recond to go into the hundreds.
Each time his behaviour was discovered he was moved on to continue raping children - this included Wisconsin
When the children protested he called them sinners for defying 'God's will' and when the parents confronted his cardinal they were given a religious lecture and told they would never win if they took on the church.
"Jim.....I'm afraid the stats say something different."
And I'm afraid that the last people I would go for information is a body who has never come to terms with sexuality, has struggled with the idea of sexuality since Jesus and Mary Magdalene were mates, is dominated by elderly single men who see fit to pronounce on matters such as contraception and pregnancy termination and who prohibit half the population on this planet from taking Holy Orders because of their gender.
Homosexuality is as familiar as walking on the Moon to these people
This affair is still in its early days and the powers that be have not begun to quantify the incidents, let alone find the causes - that takes specialist skills by qualified people


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jul 17 - 10:22 AM

Whoops
Preamature ejaculation - must stop doing that
Pronouncements such as that one leaves the distinct impression of something being covered up.
"I think Jim, you'd rightly object to a thread with the title "Muslim Abuse of children"
I certainly would if it was an attempt to implicate the religion as a whole
I have always made it quite clear that I believe this involves the church hierarchy, not Catholics as a whole
Maybe the title should read The Catholic Church's abuse of children, jus as the Muslim cases should read the abuse of young women by a handful of Muslim criminals.
Unfortunately, the latter is not possible because of the Islamophobic nature of Western society
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Joe Offer
Date: 21 Jul 17 - 10:43 AM

Ake, the Catholic League is an extremist group, not an official Catholic representative.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Jul 17 - 11:17 AM

Sorry Joe I was unaware of that, but I suppose the stats will be accurate, as they are repeated on several media outlets.

In what way are they extremist? they seem to promote the ideals of the Catholic Church, regarding homosexuality, family, abortion etc.

Would a socially conservative organisation not be nearer the mark?


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Jul 17 - 11:24 AM

"Keith, we are trying to rescue the Labour thread from your insane and obsessive grip. If that means discussing the heights of mountains, or Dave, well so be it. Your input is highly repressive, and responding to it is worse than pointless."

I'm sure a simple apology to Keith concerning your tactics on the thread would have been accepted and would have saved the thread from becoming meaningless?   Or perhaps that was your intention when all chance of escape with any sort of credibility was gone.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jul 17 - 11:31 AM

" they seem to promote the ideals of the Catholic Church, regarding homosexuality, family, abortion etc."
It seems to have escaped your notice that the views expressed by the old guard of the Church are as extremist as they come
Some have still to leave behind the opinion that sex is a necessary evil and the church constantly attempts to infuence the various referaenda on pregnancy termination.
Ireland is on the point of taking its first giant step into the middle of the twentieth century compared to Britain - we await with bated breath to se whether it will make it
A few years ago a couple of 'Magdalene Nuns' were interviewed over their roles in the Madelene Laundries
They said their work was "guided by god" and described their victims as "fallen women" and "the sweepings of the street"
Dickens would have been proud of such phrases had propriety allowed him to use them
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Abuse of Children
From: Kenny B
Date: 21 Jul 17 - 12:02 PM

Ake
All stats are accurate but unless you understand why they were quoted, how and why they were obtained and how they fit into the broader picture they are worse than useless.
To put the Catholic League into context they appear to be the equivalent of the "Wee Frees" I am translating Joe's definition into language you may understand.


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