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BS: The (in)glorious 12th

Dave the Gnome 12 Aug 17 - 06:32 AM
Dave the Gnome 12 Aug 17 - 06:36 AM
Big Al Whittle 12 Aug 17 - 07:23 AM
akenaton 12 Aug 17 - 07:31 AM
Iains 12 Aug 17 - 07:42 AM
Steve Shaw 12 Aug 17 - 07:48 AM
Dave the Gnome 12 Aug 17 - 08:10 AM
Rapparee 12 Aug 17 - 09:57 AM
Steve Shaw 12 Aug 17 - 11:38 AM
Raggytash 12 Aug 17 - 12:06 PM
Donuel 12 Aug 17 - 12:37 PM
punkfolkrocker 12 Aug 17 - 12:41 PM
Dave the Gnome 12 Aug 17 - 01:32 PM
Teribus 12 Aug 17 - 02:59 PM
punkfolkrocker 12 Aug 17 - 03:47 PM
Steve Shaw 12 Aug 17 - 03:57 PM
Mr Red 12 Aug 17 - 04:21 PM
akenaton 12 Aug 17 - 04:37 PM
Iains 12 Aug 17 - 04:37 PM
Dave the Gnome 12 Aug 17 - 05:36 PM
Iains 13 Aug 17 - 03:57 AM
Dave the Gnome 13 Aug 17 - 04:44 AM
Iains 13 Aug 17 - 05:11 AM
JHW 13 Aug 17 - 05:21 AM
Dave the Gnome 13 Aug 17 - 05:31 AM
Steve Shaw 13 Aug 17 - 07:17 AM
Dave the Gnome 13 Aug 17 - 07:48 AM
Stu 13 Aug 17 - 09:07 AM
Steve Shaw 13 Aug 17 - 09:12 AM
Dave the Gnome 13 Aug 17 - 09:39 AM
Jon Freeman 13 Aug 17 - 09:40 AM
Stu 13 Aug 17 - 10:11 AM
Steve Shaw 13 Aug 17 - 10:35 AM
Iains 13 Aug 17 - 10:45 AM
Steve Shaw 13 Aug 17 - 11:03 AM
Jon Freeman 13 Aug 17 - 11:12 AM
Dave the Gnome 13 Aug 17 - 11:36 AM
Jon Freeman 13 Aug 17 - 11:48 AM
Big Al Whittle 13 Aug 17 - 11:56 AM
Dave the Gnome 13 Aug 17 - 12:48 PM
Jon Freeman 13 Aug 17 - 01:15 PM
Dave the Gnome 13 Aug 17 - 01:25 PM
Steve Shaw 13 Aug 17 - 01:39 PM
akenaton 13 Aug 17 - 01:46 PM
Dave the Gnome 13 Aug 17 - 02:07 PM
Donuel 13 Aug 17 - 02:32 PM
punkfolkrocker 13 Aug 17 - 02:56 PM
Jon Freeman 13 Aug 17 - 03:38 PM
punkfolkrocker 13 Aug 17 - 03:59 PM
Iains 13 Aug 17 - 04:01 PM
Dave the Gnome 13 Aug 17 - 04:08 PM
Big Al Whittle 13 Aug 17 - 04:11 PM
keberoxu 13 Aug 17 - 04:20 PM
Iains 13 Aug 17 - 04:29 PM
punkfolkrocker 13 Aug 17 - 04:46 PM
akenaton 13 Aug 17 - 05:41 PM
Steve Shaw 13 Aug 17 - 06:53 PM
Big Al Whittle 14 Aug 17 - 01:44 AM
Dave the Gnome 14 Aug 17 - 03:20 AM
Steve Shaw 14 Aug 17 - 03:58 AM
Steve Shaw 14 Aug 17 - 04:02 AM
Iains 14 Aug 17 - 04:51 AM
Mr Red 14 Aug 17 - 05:17 AM
Iains 14 Aug 17 - 05:34 AM
Steve Shaw 14 Aug 17 - 06:12 AM
Iains 14 Aug 17 - 07:10 AM
Teribus 14 Aug 17 - 07:22 AM
Jon Freeman 14 Aug 17 - 07:26 AM
Teribus 14 Aug 17 - 07:43 AM
Raggytash 14 Aug 17 - 08:06 AM
punkfolkrocker 14 Aug 17 - 08:09 AM
Jon Freeman 14 Aug 17 - 08:30 AM
Teribus 14 Aug 17 - 09:32 AM
Raggytash 14 Aug 17 - 09:48 AM
Big Al Whittle 14 Aug 17 - 10:29 AM
Iains 14 Aug 17 - 10:42 AM
Iains 14 Aug 17 - 10:57 AM
Jon Freeman 14 Aug 17 - 11:07 AM
Iains 14 Aug 17 - 11:15 AM
Dave the Gnome 14 Aug 17 - 01:20 PM
keberoxu 14 Aug 17 - 01:25 PM
Dave the Gnome 14 Aug 17 - 01:32 PM
Steve Shaw 14 Aug 17 - 05:08 PM
punkfolkrocker 14 Aug 17 - 05:21 PM
Jon Freeman 15 Aug 17 - 12:35 AM
punkfolkrocker 15 Aug 17 - 01:11 AM
Jon Freeman 15 Aug 17 - 01:36 AM
peteaberdeen 15 Aug 17 - 03:42 AM
Steve Shaw 15 Aug 17 - 06:02 AM
punkfolkrocker 15 Aug 17 - 06:10 AM
Iains 15 Aug 17 - 06:21 AM
Steve Shaw 15 Aug 17 - 07:30 AM
Big Al Whittle 15 Aug 17 - 07:49 AM
Steve Shaw 15 Aug 17 - 07:59 AM
Dave the Gnome 15 Aug 17 - 08:40 AM
Iains 15 Aug 17 - 09:14 AM
Steve Shaw 15 Aug 17 - 10:43 AM
Raggytash 15 Aug 17 - 11:10 AM
Iains 15 Aug 17 - 11:34 AM
Jon Freeman 15 Aug 17 - 11:47 AM
Steve Shaw 15 Aug 17 - 11:59 AM
Big Al Whittle 15 Aug 17 - 01:55 PM
punkfolkrocker 15 Aug 17 - 02:25 PM
Steve Shaw 15 Aug 17 - 05:05 PM
Big Al Whittle 16 Aug 17 - 02:17 AM
punkfolkrocker 16 Aug 17 - 03:51 AM
Dave the Gnome 16 Aug 17 - 06:45 AM
Big Al Whittle 16 Aug 17 - 07:17 AM
Big Al Whittle 16 Aug 17 - 07:19 AM
Teribus 18 Aug 17 - 11:56 AM
Dave the Gnome 18 Aug 17 - 01:09 PM
Dave the Gnome 18 Aug 17 - 01:10 PM
Steve Shaw 18 Aug 17 - 01:54 PM
punkfolkrocker 18 Aug 17 - 02:28 PM
Steve Shaw 18 Aug 17 - 02:43 PM
Big Al Whittle 18 Aug 17 - 08:23 PM
punkfolkrocker 18 Aug 17 - 08:39 PM
Steve Shaw 18 Aug 17 - 08:50 PM
Teribus 18 Aug 17 - 09:12 PM
Teribus 18 Aug 17 - 09:19 PM
Big Al Whittle 18 Aug 17 - 10:06 PM
Dave the Gnome 19 Aug 17 - 03:09 AM
Iains 19 Aug 17 - 04:07 AM
Steve Shaw 19 Aug 17 - 05:39 AM
Steve Shaw 19 Aug 17 - 05:57 AM
Steve Shaw 19 Aug 17 - 05:58 AM
Teribus 19 Aug 17 - 06:03 AM
Iains 19 Aug 17 - 06:38 AM
Teribus 19 Aug 17 - 06:45 AM
Steve Shaw 19 Aug 17 - 07:04 AM
Steve Shaw 19 Aug 17 - 07:08 AM
akenaton 19 Aug 17 - 08:39 AM
Raggytash 19 Aug 17 - 08:56 AM
Steve Shaw 19 Aug 17 - 09:17 AM
akenaton 19 Aug 17 - 10:21 AM
punkfolkrocker 19 Aug 17 - 11:08 AM
Steve Shaw 19 Aug 17 - 11:30 AM
Dave the Gnome 19 Aug 17 - 11:44 AM
Big Al Whittle 19 Aug 17 - 12:01 PM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Aug 17 - 12:16 PM
Teribus 19 Aug 17 - 01:36 PM
punkfolkrocker 19 Aug 17 - 01:47 PM
Steve Shaw 19 Aug 17 - 02:26 PM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Aug 17 - 02:31 PM
Steve Shaw 19 Aug 17 - 02:34 PM
punkfolkrocker 19 Aug 17 - 02:45 PM
Greg F. 19 Aug 17 - 04:25 PM
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Subject: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Aug 17 - 06:32 AM

Today's the day that if you are a grouse you start to keep a low profile! Don't get me wrong here. I am a meat eater and I think hunting is probably a better way to get meat than farming it but the grouse shoot does seem to have become yet another 'industry'.

I am led to believe, and I accept that I may have been misled, that the grouse shoot only started to involve beaters driving the grouse towards stationary shooters when Edward the 7th became to unfit to walk across the moors. Prior to that I believe the line of shooters did walk a long way and disturbed their own grouse.

In addition, farming of grouse to shoot and 'management' of grouse moors seems to have added to the issues that are causing flooding lower down the valleys. See this article for details.

Is it not about time that this issue was addressed? Carry on shooting by all means but can we not make sure it is managed in a way that is better for all concerned? Including the grouse!

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Aug 17 - 06:36 AM

...and of course there is always ol' Ewan's viewpoint

He called me a louse and said, Think of the grouse
Well I thought but I still couldn't see
Why old Kinder Scout and the moors round about
Couldn't take both the poor grouse and me
He said, All this land is my master's
At that I stood shaking my head
No man has the right to own mountains
Any more than the deep ocean bed


DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Aug 17 - 07:23 AM

other than on a whisky bottle (and then I confess, it didn't have my full attention) - i'm not sure i've ever seen a grouse.

if the English language were consistent I suppose it would go:-

mouse - mice
grouse -grice


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Aug 17 - 07:31 AM

Yes, a lot of shooting up here, The grouse are farmed for "sport", they are so fat they can hardly fly.....The chinless wonders who do the shooting disgust me. mainly Austrians and Germans in this area with a few English townies.....don't know one local who participates.

Locals(gamekeepers etc), usually stick to clays, or deer culling as part of their employment.


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: Iains
Date: 12 Aug 17 - 07:42 AM

For the argument concerning moor management and flooding I think I would want to see a detailed study over time of river velocity and height against rain gauge data, flooding events and moor management.
It may have some merit but I would want to see a detailed study before making any assumptions, it superficially seems more another means to attack grouse shooting, though I could be wrong..
I suspect intense bursts of rainfall cause the flooding events. Burning heather has been an upland management process for many many years. As the heather gets older, higher and more woody the nutritional value and attractiveness to grazing animals decreases. This is not just an issue for grouse moors, it is valid for all moors.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015%E2%80%9316_Great_Britain_and_Ireland_floods
https:
//www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/sep/08/flooding-uk-government-plans-for-more-extreme-rainfall


http://slowtheflow.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/HB_Dissertation_A-Clark-Final.pdf


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Aug 17 - 07:48 AM

If I call people who spend a fortune killing a few small birds a day using a method that depends on other men disturbing the birds first "brainless oiks," I suppose someone will come along and call me jealous. 😂 For me, the worst aspect is the fact that these idiots are permitted to close vast areas of upland to people while they're having their "sport." For me, all beaches, river banks and high wild places should be open and free for anyone to roam at will all the year round. In my otherwise misspent twenties I roamed all over the northern Highlands through many summer days and the only trouble I ever encountered was from midges. I did once have shots fired over my head by aggressive grouse shooters in Upper Teesdale, a highly illegal act. Until they fired I didn't even know they were there. There was no concept of asking me nicely.


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Aug 17 - 08:10 AM

It is indeed a question of all moors and I fully accept that this is only part of the problem. Hence my phrase, "seems to have added to the issues that are causing flooding". Nature is such a delicately balanced ecology that even the slightest thing can make a massive difference. Often for the worse but sometimes for the better. I am a great believer in the fact that even small steps will get you to the end of the longest journey. Yes, Ok, I do have little legs so have your fun... We are not going to reforest the planet overnight or reverse the greenhouse effect anytime soon but surely the quick easy wins should be the place to start.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: Rapparee
Date: 12 Aug 17 - 09:57 AM

As one who has hunted what we here in Yankdom call "upland birds" (grouse, pheasant, chukar, and others) I must admit that the idea of having the birds driven to the hunters has always puzzled me. People can be shot (witness what Witless Dick Cheney did some years back), and that was a line of shooters walking, not using "beaters." That's totally apart from the land issue -- here you get permission to hunt private land or hunt public land such as National Grasslands and Forests. The concepts of "shooting" in the UK escape me, except as a way to point out how much better one social group is than another. (Yes, there are private "hunting preserves" here and they are spit on by true hunters.)


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Aug 17 - 11:38 AM

Grouse moors are highly managed. The heather has to be just so, otherwise no grice. They are very artificial habitats. In fact, much moorland is semi-natural only, vast tracts once having been afforested. There's concern about the erosion of exposed peat in many areas. Increasing temperatures and hot, dry spells are threats to peatland on slopes. Peat acts like a huge sponge, holding rainwater and releasing it gradually, which is what we want. Loss of peat would mean a lot more runoff, increasing the rate of erosion, and there would be more surface water flooding in heavy rain.


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: Raggytash
Date: 12 Aug 17 - 12:06 PM

Hang about Steve, most of the UK scenery is man made, including things that you and I love like hedgerows and verges.


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Aug 17 - 12:37 PM

Truth is awful funny, but as funny grows awful goes.

I snigger at all the grouse in my fridge.
My bubbling submerged laughter needs a Merlin
to release the mighty floodgates below.

I've met hunters I don't like, some a smidge.
But that has never kept me from laughing with'em.
In fact laughing always made bonds grow.

I killed 2 grouse with my car on the same ridge
They left a mark on my windshield with their beak.
I never saw them coming , so how would I know.

What some do by gun I do by Datsun and a smirk.
There's plenty of hoary shooters like tight lipped sheep.
They join a group, pick a park and lock the gate.

With bow and arrow there's no sound, they don't work.
But the blast of a gun will delight any creep?
You be judge if they are a villain or soul mate.

Some hit their mark with an instant kill by a quirk.
Feelings fueled by toxic tanks of hate that seep.
Killers in a clique, it needn't be your fate.

In our mind we know who's the saint and who's the jerk.
It is sick to worship the prejudice they keep.
My best medicine is laughing at hate.

Twisting gun nuts upon themselves makes me smile.
Death by amendment with a loving heart makes us weep
Here's laughing at you, and your entire manly group.

They choose sides, load their guns and lock their gate.
They drink and wash from a toxic tank and make communal soup.
AR 15's rule the roost, some say for roast grouse sake


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 Aug 17 - 12:41 PM

.. something else for the usual suspects to grouse about...!!!...




ok.. sorry mates.. that's too terrible by even my standards... 😜


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Aug 17 - 01:32 PM

I think I ducked that remark.

:D tG


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Aug 17 - 02:59 PM

Grouse is not farmed, you are thinking of Pheasant.

Controlled burning of sections of heather is essential to provide food (new growth) for the grouse, only a certain limited amount of burning is carried out as the grouse need mature heather to nest


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 Aug 17 - 03:47 PM

So what does grouse taste like ?

..and is it a basic spuds, veg, and gravy dinner - and leftovers sandwiches;
or foul tasting rotted flesh flavour that toffs seem to like, and dress up with poncey expensive odd ingredients presentation to disguise the flavour...???


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Aug 17 - 03:57 PM

There's very little natural wilderness left in Britain. Sea cliffs can come close, as can mountain tops above 3000 feet. True ancient woodland is rare. On Dartmoor, Black Tor Copse and Wistman's Wood come close, as does the stunted oak forest of Dizzard, about ten minutes from my house. The sad fact is that any area determined as natural is inevitably surrounded by less natural habitat and subject to invasive interference therefrom. Great swathes of heather moorland may look very nice in August but they are no more "natural" than a field of waving corn.


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: Mr Red
Date: 12 Aug 17 - 04:21 PM

a grouse about grouse.

there are more important issues. But I guess homelessness is a much more complicated issue, even at the individual level, to invoke a consensus.


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Aug 17 - 04:37 PM

My apologies Mr T, you are of course correct. the old brain cells must be diminishing fast :0). Pheasants it is, beautiful birds, they slaughter them by the sack load.
I have never owned or fired a gun in my life and don't understand why people get pleasure from killing animals.

I think it would be good if these so called hunters were obliged to eat all they shoot.


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: Iains
Date: 12 Aug 17 - 04:37 PM

A quick guide to amplify Steve's contribution.

http://www.macaulay.ac.uk/soilquality/Moorland%20Succession.pdf


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Aug 17 - 05:36 PM

Grouse is not farmed

My apologies. Grouse moors are managed rather than farmed. I suppose there must be a huge difference or it would not have been mentioned...

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: Iains
Date: 13 Aug 17 - 03:57 AM

I wonder where the truth really is? Some interesting points are raised.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-4785582/Sir-Ian-Botham-Cute-No-verminous-killers.html


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Aug 17 - 04:44 AM

There are some interesting points indeed, Iains. Underlining the fact that nature is a very delicate balance. Too much of one thing or another will have a great effect. Gamekeepers certainly have been part of country life for generations and I think they do indeed know more than most about their own locality. Maybe if the RSPB employed gamekeepers along the same lines as managed grouse moors they may do a lot better in these areas? I do think, however, that Mr Botham is being rather unfair on the RSPB. They undoubtedly do good work in many areas but an organisation with such a vast remit will not get everything right first time. As to whet the truth is. Well, as I have often said in many threads where opinions are polarized, the truth probably lies somewhere in the middle.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: Iains
Date: 13 Aug 17 - 05:11 AM

Dthe G I think the RSPB, rather like the RSPCA and national trust, tend to let ideals get in the way of common sense at times(and I have phrased that as delicately as I could)
Mr Botham also can hardly be regarded as a disinterested observer.
I would take issue with the lack of transparency though- I would make the continued charitable status of the RSPB dependent upon independently verified transparency.
Nature, the environment, ecosystems-call it what you will, Despite continual scientific studies, it has a nasty habit of frequently upsetting deeply held "beliefs". Probably because the many strands making the whole have extremely complex, poorly understood inter relationships and inter-dependencies.


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: JHW
Date: 13 Aug 17 - 05:21 AM

Aware of the impending 12th I walked Barden Reservoirs (nr Skipton N. Yorkshire) amongst stunningly purple heather and apologised "Sorry grice" to all those I disturbed; possibly a buzzard too lumbered into the sky from very near me. (Not sure as no call but very big and right colour)
Lovely walk.


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Aug 17 - 05:31 AM

Can't say I disagree with much of that Iains but even if Ian B is not a 'disinterested observer', he is a cricketer, not a scientist :-)

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Aug 17 - 07:17 AM

Botham's article is arrant, ignorant nonsense (and he's a cricketing hero of mine). He reminds me of all those letter-writers to the Western Morning News who call for the destruction of all sparrowhawks. How do these people suppose that the songbirds, etc., managed to live alongside foxes and other predators for thousands of years since the last glaciation? If you want some home truths, Iains, it's that gamekeepers, via nest-wrecking, shooting and poisoning brought hen harriers to the verge of extinction. Golden eagle nests are wrecked every year in Scotland and birds are regularly poisoned. Landowners and their gamekeepers are not interested in maintaining biodiversity or ecological balance. They are interested only in maintaining their extremely limited range of desirable species which can be shot for the sport of brainless gits like Sir Ian and for their profit. Gamekeepers play a massive part in keeping our most magnificent raptors under constant threat, and farming practices, along with domestic cats, are the biggest threat to songbirds. If we all knew a bit more and cared a bit more, we wouldn't allow these countryside vandals to douse fields with neonicotinoid insecticides that wipe out bees and migrate up tbe food chain or plant winter wheat where skylarks breed. Foxes and birds of prey are easy scapegoats and they can't answer back, even though they're a bit brainier than Botham.


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Aug 17 - 07:48 AM

I think he does make some good points. Steve, but it is not the whole story. Yes, some gamekeepers are guilty of what you say but they know their stuff and some may care more for biodiversity than you give them credit for. Yes, I agree with him on some points but as I said the RSBP does stalwart work in a lot of areas and they should not be written off because they may get some things wrong. If we had the best of both of them we would be on a winner but while a few rich people control the game we do not have much chance. But that is a different topic altogether :-)

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: Stu
Date: 13 Aug 17 - 09:07 AM

"poorly understood inter relationships and inter-dependencies."

Not as poorly understood as you might think. We understand very well that an ecosystem is a flow of energy, from sunlight to apex predator. Ecosystems can be stable for very long periods when they reach an equilibrium but that this stability is affected (amongst other things) by the loss of various components that reduce biodiversity, and the loss of apex predators (in the case of the moors birds like hen harriers) has significant affects on the health of an ecosystem.

I can highly recommend this book which is very readable without being dumbed down: The Wolf's Tooth: Keystone Predators, Trophic Cascades, and Biodiversity

If we could make every farmer, gamekeeper, politician and other monetised user of the land read and understand this book, the world would be a better place.


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Aug 17 - 09:12 AM

His article is basically an anti-fox rant which is predicated on the fact that foxes prey on game birds. The problem there is that game-bird habitat is highly artificial and just happens to be nirvana for foxes. You might as well rail against pigeons for inhabiting Radcliffe bus station in large numbers, where bits of crisps, pasties, pies and butties provide a rich harvest of pigeon grub. Neither Botham's grouse moor nor Radcliffe bus station are remotely natural habitats. Yet he comes out with this piece of egregious ignorance:

"The heart of the problem is that the RSPB's leadership appears to lack the courage to manage nature. Everyone who lives in the countryside knows that nature left to its own devices is a brutal place."

Well nature left to its own devices created the amazing beauty and staggering diversity of the natural world over billions of years well before Sir Ian's shooting fad came along. What's wrong with his simplistic notion is that he doesn't realise that simplifying nature by drastically reducing diversity is at the heart of the predator "problem" he sees. His grouse moor provides habitat in which grouse are unnaturally overcrowded. There are few other bird species and they exist in low numbers. Birds of prey are not suffered to exist. The vegetation is highly restricted as to species and is tailored for grouse only. It's no wonder that foxes see their opportunity. Grouse moors attract foxes for the same reason they attract shooters. They are full of grouse. Duh. So Sir Ian, in order to strengthen his case against the animal that spoils his shoot, lashes out in all sorts of other anti-fox directions. If foxes are "out of control" (which they are not), it's solely because we have created the conditions for that to happen. He's made his grouse moor into a very brutal place by NOT leaving it to its own devices. If you don't believe me, just imagine you're a grouse up there this afternoon, shot at by morons by day and threatened by the foxes that Sir Ian has encouraged by night. The one predator they should be scared of, the bird of prey, doesn't get a look-in. It might even be lying poisoned in a ditch. Now that's what I call mucking about with nature.


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Aug 17 - 09:39 AM

I still think that some of his points are fine but they are only part of the picture. It is the way these things are presented and all such articles should be taken with a good handful of salt. Nothing wrong with what he says as such but there are lots of things he doesn't say. That is fine, there are other people, such as yourself, who will rectify that and so there should be. It is how we learn.

Stu - Not read the book but refer often to snippets about the trophic cascade at Yellowstone once wolves were reintroduced. There is talk of lynx in Scotland but imagine the fuss the shooters will make then!

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 13 Aug 17 - 09:40 AM

"Everyone who lives in the countryside knows that nature left to its own devices is a brutal place."

Odd. OK there are things that I don't find pleasant, and even once just in our garden (OK artificial), I can't pretend I enjoyed once seeing a sparrowhawk taking down and proceeding to eat a collard dove.. But the thing about nature in my own innocent/ignorant view is that it, left alone, will always find a balance. In that context, it is irrelevant whether I "approve" of every action a predator (which after all has a perfect right to exist and I believe forms part of the balance) may take. More nature has its ways that are perhaps not for me to question.

Foxes: sure we have kept chicken, ducks and geese in the past and I know what they can do. I don't go as far as blaming them for taking a ready made meal we could have taken better care of though.


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: Stu
Date: 13 Aug 17 - 10:11 AM

" Everyone who lives in the countryside knows that nature left to its own devices is a brutal place"

A statement that manages to combine both staggering arrogance and ignorance.


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Aug 17 - 10:35 AM

Agreed, Jon. I'm not saying that we should always just manage the environment by leaving it alone (though that can be a good policy in some circumstances). Most of what we regard as our natural places are, in reality, semi-natural at best. That includes almost all of what we call our ancient woodland. The climax community has usually been deflected away from by our activities and, generally, the climax won't return even if we abandon the land, because we may have removed nutrients or altered the hydrology or degraded the soil or introduced alien species. In those circumstances, management for conservation and biodiversity may be the best policy. What wouldn't work is some ignorant berk with an agenda going out shooting at foxes, thinking he's restoring some kind of balance. He isn't, and he'll make things worse.

Incidentally, sparrowhawks are a native species whereas collared doves are recent aliens, dating back only to the early 1950s.


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: Iains
Date: 13 Aug 17 - 10:45 AM

Shaw you are having a rant!
1) Botham may be former cricketer but does that mean he can only talk rubbish? If so he is in fine company. How about Albert Einstein:"There is not the slightest indication that nuclear energy will ever be available.It would mean that the atom would have to be shattered at will(1932)
or Lord Kelvin:"X rays will prove to be a hoax(1883)
or Hiram Maxim on the role of the machine gun in war:"It will make war impossible)
2)It is also worth pointing out that nature(in the widest sense) has given rise to some major extinction events throuhout the geologic record
3)There is only one dangerous predator-you see it each time you look in a mirror.


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Aug 17 - 11:03 AM

Don't talk such rubbish yourself. I didn't say he talked rubbish because he was a cricketer. And I absolutely can't see what "extinction events" have got to do with what we're talking about. And I'm not aware that anyone here is making predictions that may turn out to be bollix. You're lowering the tone. Was there a hidden bone in your roast chicken?


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 13 Aug 17 - 11:12 AM

I certainly wasn't aware of tat re the dove, Steve and thanks for the other thoughts.

--
I see we are back to cricket... OT but I'm not convinced off hand that I really liked him, maybe a bit "anti cricket establishment" in playing days that was OK but often (to me) a bit pompous. My father disliked him so much that he stopped buying Shreaded wheat!

But I think the comment starting this was about his performance on the field. On that I don't think there is any doubt he was a fine all rounder and one (although I'd have chosen to bad like Viv Richards and bowl like Michael Holding, and probably in all round ability, Imran Khan was my favourite...) that people of my generation wanted to emulate as well as being a player that led other generations older and younger to look for the next England Botham.

That, the way I read it is just passing interest, not a statement as to whether or not being a cricketer qualifies or otherwise for making comment on the environment.


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Aug 17 - 11:36 AM

The bowler's Holding the batsman's Willey?

:D tG


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 13 Aug 17 - 11:48 AM

Seems to be some doubt on that one, Dave although I'd think possible. One that can be verified is Lillee caught Willey bowled Dilley.

Anyway, someone needs to bring us back to topic...


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Aug 17 - 11:56 AM

i suppose theres no real difference between the posh git shooting birds for pleasure and the poor sod slitting their throats for Bernard Matthews - morally.

they both take life for their own reasons.

even if the posh git did a lot of good - i still wouldn't like him.
i'm not disagreeing with what you're saying Steve - i just think its an irrelevance.

the rich are all twats.


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Aug 17 - 12:48 PM

I don't think they are all twats, Al. Just a lot of them. If I was rich I would definitely be a twat (nothing new there then before you say it) but if my Mrs was rich, she would be OK. I suppose if I won the lottery I should give it all to her!

:D tG


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 13 Aug 17 - 01:15 PM

"Anyway, someone needs to bring us back to topic... "

I'll try to keep to that after this but for Dave, maybe this is relevant. Sometimes we seem to have what I think of as the "Pugwash effect" where plausibility seems to override our own memories.


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Aug 17 - 01:25 PM

No good trying to keep on topic with me about anyway, Jon. I knew about the Pugwash thing but we still like to remember Seaman Stains and Roger the cabin boy anyway :-)

I got another look at Penyghent today. Never noticed before, driving back over the tops from Haworth, as Airedale opens up in front of you, there she is in all he glory beyond the next couple of lines of hills. Eeeeeh, happy for the next few hours at least :-)

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Aug 17 - 01:39 PM

Which bit was irrelevant, Al?


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Aug 17 - 01:46 PM

To equate killing animals for fun and factory farming is a it disingenuous.....to feed our population I'm afraid factory farming has become a necessity....and don't dare say that is "tacit approval of the process", I have already been accused of that in the Nazification thread....and still have received no apology.


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Aug 17 - 02:07 PM

To equate killing animals for fun and factory farming is a it disingenuous.

Who the fuck has done that?

I'll have a pint of what he's on...

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Aug 17 - 02:32 PM

Ake, I did.
Today we are all awash in false equivalencies DtG.


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 Aug 17 - 02:56 PM

I'm cooking pork chops, chips, leftover curried veg, and gravy..

How well would grouse go with that instead of pork chops...???

[pfr - grew up on a factory council estate eating affordable food out of tins and cardboard packets...]


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 13 Aug 17 - 03:38 PM

Foul/fowl?

I don't think I've even had peasant or any of the game birds.

I have eaten woodpigeon though and rabbit back in a time when mum (a life long vegetarian) was open to cooking a bit more for her then meat eating husband and then (I' not sure who is and isn't now in the family...) carnivorous children and I've long been mostly veg, largely for convenience but seem to loose taste for meat, etc. I could waffle on a while there...

Those were probably reasonably "normal", at least my first time round in a small village in N Wales mid 60s and while, yes, dad was with the Abbey and mum a physio, I struggle to think of it all as being rich/poor. Except to say that where I once lived would be expensive property wise now - any property - the village moved from once "behind the times" to "highly desirable"


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 Aug 17 - 03:59 PM

.. errrrmmm.. so it wouldn't taste very pheasant...!!!??? 😜

[dedicated to Basil Brush - and all other maligned foxes...]


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: Iains
Date: 13 Aug 17 - 04:01 PM

Surely grouse are a farmed species like many other creatures. You may not agree with the efficiency of the process,the restricted market it serves, or the method of slaughter, but it offers a far higher quality of life to the bird than that of a battery hen. Many acres of moorland has to offer more that being cramped in a cage with many others, in a factory farm.
   Perhaps we should raise them in a feedlot, so they may dine regularly. Perhaps off a table of astro turf.Then there would be no confusion over the artificiality of the environment they are raised in.


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Aug 17 - 04:08 PM

Take that up with Teribus, Iains.

From: Teribus - PM
Date: 12 Aug 17 - 02:59 PM

Grouse is not farmed, you are thinking of Pheasant.


I am still unclear what the difference is and why it makes and odds anyway.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Aug 17 - 04:11 PM

if you were a human being, and someone was shooting human beings and another bloke was cutting their throats...you wouldn't differentiate.

i bet if you were a bird, you wouldn't differentiate between Lord Muck with his shotgun, and the bloke with a razor blade at Bernard Matthews.

as far the bird is concerned they're both avian-cidal maniacs. characters from a nightmare.

whereas - its the aristocrat i don't like - because i'm not a bird.


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: keberoxu
Date: 13 Aug 17 - 04:20 PM

Remember the time that Her Majesty went shooting for grouse,
and a falling grouse whacked her straight in the shoulder?

And in the peanut-gallery sections of the press,
they were hailing, in print,
"The Kamikaze Grouse! "


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: Iains
Date: 13 Aug 17 - 04:29 PM

D the G "Red grouse, which are only found in Britain, cannot be reared artificially. They have a short life cycle and are susceptible to a number of diseases. They are famous for enduring hard winter weather, but their chicks are as fragile as any young bird."
Pheasants tend to be hatched and reared prior to release. Not all but probably most.
Whether you define farming as hatching and raising the chicks, or micro managing the moorland so it is conducive to grouse is probably an argument that can go round in endless circles. To an extent both points of view have merit.


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 Aug 17 - 04:46 PM

What do WE want..
When do we want it...!!!???

..genetically modified factory farmed grouse for the down trodden masses...

McWimpy Grouse Burgers...!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Aug 17 - 05:41 PM

The question is what motivates the shooters, not semantics about whether grouse are "farmed" or not. Iains remarks on wild grouse are correct, in this part of Scotland Red Grouse are the common species

I have always questioned the sanity of people who enjoy killing animals. I have seen magnificent wild beasts slaughtered as trophy by human many times inferior in every way.


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Aug 17 - 06:53 PM

Maybe I'll surprise y'all by saying that I'm not really "against" stuff like foxhunting or deer stalking or grouse shooting. I'm definitely not "for" any of it, and wouldn't be seen dead doing any of it, but would I ban it? Well, not really. We screw up the lives of millions of animals every year for food, subjecting them to horrible, unnatural conditions. That fox that was hunted down by hounds, or shot by one of Botham's ignorami, at least had a happy natural life before it was ruthlessly torn to shreds by the dogs of morons and then had its bloody tail wiped on the forehead of an eleven-year-old who was being groomed into the same stupidity. What's not to like! 😂 So let's avoid hypocrisy. What I don't like is the usurping of millions of acres of upland for "sport". That land is actually mine to begin with, just as much as it's theirs. Nobody ever made a square foot of land. These shotgun-toting arseholes have no right to shut off land for privileged twats like Botham to indulge their puerile idiocy. Nobody made the land. That bloody grouse moor is mine. So if you want to breed grice on it, that's great, but I might just want to walk across it on the 13th August if it's a nice day. And you can't stop me and you'd better not point your gun.


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Aug 17 - 01:44 AM

well if they pointed a gun, it would stop me.


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Aug 17 - 03:20 AM

Aaaarrrggghhhh! Will everyone stop going on about whether it is farmed or not. I could not give a flying fuck what you call it. The grouse care even less. Someone else brought up that piece of pedantry so take it up with them.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Aug 17 - 03:58 AM

Ok, Dave, we'll compromise. They're farmed. Ish. 😚


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Aug 17 - 04:02 AM

"well if they pointed a gun, it would stop me"

Take a photo and go straight down the cop shop.

I'm not saying it's never happened but I don't recall any cases of ramblers being shot by country "sportsmen."


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: Iains
Date: 14 Aug 17 - 04:51 AM

"That land is actually mine to begin with, just as much as it's theirs." Arrant twaddle. a typical socialist response. The landowners own the land, hence their name.

The right to roam is not absolute.

http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/6949228.display/


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: Mr Red
Date: 14 Aug 17 - 05:17 AM

Grouse is not farmed

Call me a pedant but:
Grouse is farmed, the moors are managed.

Grouse may be wild, but the environ is controlled much like a fence does a job in controlling stock.

A semantic, but apt distinction IMNSHO.


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: Iains
Date: 14 Aug 17 - 05:34 AM

Another take on the subject(peripheral)

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/apr/28/britain-plutocrats-landed-gentry-shotgun-owners


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Aug 17 - 06:12 AM

I don't want an absolute right to roam. I've no right to trample all over a chap's field of wheat, for example, and I don't want the right to do it. I want to be able to wander over mountains and moorlands. Shooting grouse for sport is not the same as growing wheat. It's a trivial pursuit that benefits almost nobody. Nobody made those mountains. Landowner is just a word. Maybe his ancestor was a thief. Thief is another word.


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: Iains
Date: 14 Aug 17 - 07:10 AM

Twat is another word


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Aug 17 - 07:22 AM

Because of it's diet grouse cannot be "farmed"

Pheasant can - it was why they were introduced from China and released on sporting estates to be shot. The Pheasant is probably the daftest bird in creation.


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 14 Aug 17 - 07:26 AM

Well you'd have to be quick to trample on "our" wheat field. There is a combine cutting it as I type. It might take them a bit longer this year as I only see one. There is usually 2 when they (I assume contractors) come to do the job. Quite dusty round the back atm...


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Aug 17 - 07:43 AM

Nobody can "make" land? Utter rubbish Shaw. Ever heard of "Polders"? Much of the arable land in the Netherlands was "made". Same for lots of land in East Anglia - funnily enough "made" by the same people.

Oh and Iains is correct YOU do not own the land, it is not yours, if it was it would have degraded and eroded years ago through lack of the knowledge required to "manage" or "husband" it.

Funny that the Gnome doen't give a fuck as to whether they were farmed or not - especially after he specifically stated that they were and then someone else chipped in that they were so over-fed in this "farming" process that they could barely fly. The ignorance on the subject by those who cannot see through the ideological stereotypes they have been brainwashed into believing is astounding.


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: Raggytash
Date: 14 Aug 17 - 08:06 AM

Strange isn't it, that this thread which has, up to this morning, been relatively pleasant and calm has now suddenly turned aggressive.

I wonder why?


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 14 Aug 17 - 08:09 AM

Why don't the toffs just shoot at chickens..
If the pleasure of the sport is killing something;
chickens are flightless and should be much easier targets for even the most inept shooters to pepper with scatter guns...???
Especially indoors at battery farms.

.. or why not turkeys, ostriches, and emus - flightless and much bigger targets....

..and can probably be farmed efficiently....

Or those bloody noisy show off crap at flying peacocks..
Toffs already have plenty of them on their front lawns....
and wouldn't even need to leave their verandas.

They could then let us have all that countryside back again for normal folks to ramble, go dogging, and have picnics and pagan rituals...


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 14 Aug 17 - 08:30 AM

Oh, chickens can fly, although maybe it depends on the breed, with perhaps a bantam (which I have known roost quite high in a tree) finding things easier than a Rhode Island Red? I don't think any are particularly competent fliers though.


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Aug 17 - 09:32 AM

Define "pleasant" Raggy. So far all I seem to have read is Shaw calling Sir Ian Botham names, accusing him of uttering arrant, ignorant nonsense. Other people calling others Twats (One accurately referring to himself as being such).


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: Raggytash
Date: 14 Aug 17 - 09:48 AM

I rest my case.


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Aug 17 - 10:29 AM

Sir Ian Botham....love that!


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: Iains
Date: 14 Aug 17 - 10:42 AM

http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/environment/country-coast-lack-of-reverence-for-our-only-entirely-native-bird-1-8691740


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: Iains
Date: 14 Aug 17 - 10:57 AM

"I've no right to trample all over a chap's field of wheat"
Reminds me of living in deepest sussex in the very early 50's. The monks from a nearby monastery used to walk three abreast down a public footpath. This originally ran down the side of a field, but the hedge was grubbed up and the two field became one and the footpath was ploughed up and wheat sown. The monks had no hesitation flattening the crop along the line of the footpath. This was a time of farming transition. One year a reaper and binder cut the crop and the sheaves were stooked before being dried and made into a stack. Later the thresher came round and the highlight was to see the rats trying to escape from the collection of terriers as the lowermost sheaves were removed and fed to the drum. Not nearly as much fun the following year when a big red combine bagged the crop and spat straw out the back.
Far less labour intensive though and another housing crisis for the rats.


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 14 Aug 17 - 11:07 AM

"and the highlight was to see the rats trying to escape from the collection of terriers"

Before my memory but I guess that sums up differences in views. My mother's (b 1930s) highlight as a child was a ride on the cart after the days helping.


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: Iains
Date: 14 Aug 17 - 11:15 AM

Even staddle stones did not always prevent depredation by rats. House and larder in one place would be Christmas day every day for them


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Aug 17 - 01:20 PM

The Pheasant is probably the daftest bird in creation.

Genius level compared to some on here I reckon.

Now, anyone coming for a sensible discussion is welcome. I cannot stop those coming just to argue but they can expect to be told to fuck off. If that means I lose, so be it :-)

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: keberoxu
Date: 14 Aug 17 - 01:25 PM

ahhh, rats and terriers. neat change from birds and guns.


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Aug 17 - 01:32 PM

BTW

Funny that the Gnome doen't give a fuck as to whether they were farmed or not

Do I not, tezzer? I seem to recall that the phrase I used was

I could not give a flying fuck what you call it.

Call it farmed, call it managed, call it what you like. But do try to repeat what is actually said rather than what you thought someone said. Have you been taking lessons of someone?

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Aug 17 - 05:08 PM

"Nobody can "make" land? Utter rubbish Shaw. Ever heard of "Polders"? Much of the arable land in the Netherlands was "made". Same for lots of land in East Anglia - funnily enough "made" by the same people."

Fair dues to anyone who reclaims land from the sea. Fair dues also to people who improve the land by draining it, clearing the rocks from it or who improve its soil. If you've done that you've acquired the right to cultivate it and make a living from it without interference. I've never advocated land anarchy. Making moorland fit only for growing heather for grouse cover involves severe reductions in biodiversity. The burning is extremely destructive to wildlife and adds carbon dioxide to the atmosphere. These activities are carried out for sport and profit, benefitting very few people and damaging the environment. If you're seriously arguing that that kind of land use justifies ramblers being barred from wandering over thousands of acres of wild places, then I'm not with you. And, though you're not wrong to point out that land can be "made," let's keep it in proportion. The amount of land made by the methods you describe is a tiny fraction of one percent of all land.

"Oh and Iains is correct YOU do not own the land, it is not yours, if it was it would have degraded and eroded years ago through lack of the knowledge required to "manage" or "husband" it."

Well, apart from the fact that any large tract of land that is claimed to be owned was usurped for private gain and the impoverishment of ordinary people by the ancestors of the current landlord, your assumption that ownership somehow imbues you with the wisdom to be a good steward of that land is highly questionable. Bad land management has caused severe silting of rivers in the Somerset Levels and led to the flooding of villages. Cultivation of maize on sloping ground, a recent agricultural fad, has led to severe soil erosion. Look it up. Hundreds of thousands of miles of hedgerows removed has led to a loss of biodiversity and a severe threat to many songbird species, as well as butterflies, bees, wildflowers and small mammals. The use of land for winter wheat and barley has severely depleted habitat for ground-nesting birds. We endured years of watching the sheer vandalism of stubble-burning until legislation put a stop to it. Artificial fertilisers, gained at the expense of huge amounts of fossil fuel energy, result in polluted waterways and soil degradation. Farmers are using neonicotinoid insecticides on a huge scale in spite of the fact that it's well known that honeybee populations are being ravaged. Farmland that could be used for growing food is instead being used to grow Miscanthus grass for biofuel, which is low-maintenance, profitable and allows lazy "farmers" to become country gentlemen. "I'm stealing this land from you because I know how to look after it and you don't". Wow. What arrogance!


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 14 Aug 17 - 05:21 PM

I grew up in a small industrialised market town surrounded by farming country...
The fields on the edge of the housing estate and nearby ponds and river bank were an amazing 'natural' playground back in the 60s
All sorts of animal, bird, insect, and plant life in abundance.

For the last 40 years it's been encroached on by property developers, and what's left, landscaped into a flat boring almost barren picnic and dog walking park;
with child safe skateboard facilities...

Oh well, at least I benefited from a proper semi rural childhood, but we were probably the UK generation to do so...???


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 15 Aug 17 - 12:35 AM

I don't know pfr.

If it's of any interest, I'll give my own background. I was born 1960 in Shrewsbury. I don't really remember my time there or that much (except to say that on a much later in life visit I could still find my way to my first primary school, the church, the hall, etc.) about 3 miles out of town.
We moved to N Wales when I was 6 or 7. We then moved (dad's Abbey branch manage job again….) to a village near Tunbridge Wells where I started my 3rd year in secondary school. It's the Welsh one which I moved back to when I was 18 that I reflect most on.

That village was possible a little bit of an odd one given that it was only a few minutes by car to both Conwy and Llandudno but it could be viewed as a bit backward then. While there was a small C of E church, the village then was largely Welsh chapel and the majority of people were Welsh first language. All 7 (I'm discounting a couple that moved in my time) kids that I've just counted who were with a year of me (yes, it was that small and there was only one girl in my actual school year) spoke Welsh at home and all bar one lived on one of the small farms. There were a couple of short rows of houses but the village overall was quite spread out.

It was a pretty tight knit community with the good and bad (does anywhere ever match a romantic picture of the perfect happy village?) that I guess goes with it but pretty enterprising for a small population. It had a large village hall and I remember them booking a much older version of the here singing about a bluetit. Not that I ever learned to speak Welsh I enjoyed things like that and people from the surrounding area to the hall. Not really my thing but they had a gala and a procession with lots of other gala queens, etc. proceeding from the "green" to the playing field and hall. They even formed a football team (rumour has it helped by the manager also being the manager of a local brewery depot – supposedly one way to get a job…)

Coming back to us kids, miles to play in and we could do things like tracking or make dens as well as kick a ball around or cycle to another town/village but we could still get bored. For my part, I'm sure I never really saw what we had. My views have alternated over the years but really with my current 56yr old head, if I could re-run a time/place I lived, I'd pick there/then but with more appreciation of what was there/then. But times change and the village has changed. I'm not sure were you could find similar now.


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Aug 17 - 01:11 AM

I see now another glaring typo..

should have read "at least I benefited from a proper semi rural childhood, but we were probably the last UK generation to do so"

Jon - I was born in 1958.

My mrs is just a bit younger than you, she grew up on a bleak hillside with miles of nothing else much around her small village in South Wales..
But enjoyed a similar 'real' adventurous outdoors childhood as us...


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 15 Aug 17 - 01:36 AM

We were on a hill too although your wife's place sounds much more remote. The roads were fairly steep (one road had a section marked 1 in 4) and the bus (which couldn't navigate that one - it took another route turning round in the quarry) to Llandudno wouldn't turn up with the slightest hint of snow but not that far from other places.


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: peteaberdeen
Date: 15 Aug 17 - 03:42 AM

killing animals for fun? i'm against it


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Aug 17 - 06:02 AM

Killing for fun/sport will always be justified by the killers. The grouse will be eaten. Foxes must be "controlled." Deer must be "culled" to "maintain the strength of the herd," etc. But hypocrisy and unintended irony abound. Foxhunting country was deliberately made favourable for foxes by providing cover for them. After all, the last thing the hunts wanted was for the fox supply to run out. Odd that Botham hasn't spotted that one in his anti-fox rants, seeing as how the fox-hunters are, in effect and in sentiment, his brothers-in-arms. And let's see how a typical grouse might meet its end. First, it will be flushed out, terrified by a beater. Then it will endure a hail of thunderous shooting, adding to the terror. Then, if it hasn't been actually shot just yet, the fear will be compounded by vicious dogs charging through the flock. There's a good chance that you aren't killed quick and clean even if you do get shot. I wonder how many of those hooray-Henry shooters and hunters go to the pub that evening railing against the evils of halal... not a lot, probably, come to think of it. They won't know very much at all about what those "Muslim chappies" get up to. I've mixed with a few of these sporting types in my time in the rural pubs round here and they aren't usually the sharpest knives in the drawer, let's say.


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Aug 17 - 06:10 AM

..of some tangential relevance to this thread, and interest to foodies and environmentalists...

The Bug Grub Couple

"As demand grows for a sustainable alternative protein to meat, Sarah and Andy believe bug grub is the way forward.
Insects need far less land and water than beef, they can feed off waste rather than edible arable crops
and don't contribute to climate change to the same degree as beef production does.
But has the day of the insect arrived? Are the UK ready for bug burgers and cricket cookies?
"

Available to watch until 8 Sept 17.


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: Iains
Date: 15 Aug 17 - 06:21 AM

" Farmland that could be used for growing food is instead being used to grow Miscanthus grass for biofuel, which is low-maintenance, profitable and allows lazy "farmers" to become country gentlemen."
More nonsense from Shaw. Farms are not charities. If the agricultural subsidy scheme encourages planting biofuel over other crops then that is what will be grown. Nothing to do with being country gentlemen at all, just sound economic practice.
Do I detect a whiff of socialism and envy?


miscanthus
You are correct about soil erosion, although recognising the severity and wide distribution of the problem has only relatively recently been acknowledged. Previously it was thought to be a problem of far more arid areas,but now is seen to be a cause for serious concern. Perhaps you could argue the problem should have been attacked 40 years ago when first recognised, but in any field detecting a problem, defining it and seeking a cure it does not happen overnight. The cure lies in the implementation of the EU water framework directive.


https://www.bgs.ac.uk/downloads/start.cfm?id=815

http://www.mdpi.com/2077-0472/3/3/418/htm

https://ec.europa.eu/agriculture/envir/soil_en

It is a fascinating field of study


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Aug 17 - 07:30 AM

I know I'm correct.


And I don't want "sound economic practice" to trump biodiversity and good stewardship of the natural environment. Agricultural land is not someone's factory floor. Economics is one aspect only of looking after this planet. Once we start doing everything with "sound economics" at the top of the priority list we end up with pollution, soil degradation, habitat destruction, animal cruelty, unnatural disasters such as foot and mouth and contaminated eggs and species loss on a massive scale, as we've seen with the onset of intensive agriculture since WWII. A very large percentage of land on this planet is given over to agriculture. If we allow landowners to become no more than money-grabbers who see nothing beyond "sound economics," we'll be well stuffed.


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Aug 17 - 07:49 AM

its fun eating animals.

really we should all put a red jacket on, blow a trumpet and shout tally ho! every tine you have a ham sandwich.

the bloke who killed the pig - killed it for my fun. i could have had cheese sandwich.


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Aug 17 - 07:59 AM

But he didn't scare it half to death first, or use a risky method that might have merely inflicted painful injuries as opposed to instant death, or have dogs carry it in their mouths, to him, dead or alive.


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Aug 17 - 08:40 AM

Was it a Halal pig? ;-)

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: Iains
Date: 15 Aug 17 - 09:14 AM

" A very large percentage of land on this planet is given over to agriculture. If we allow landowners to become no more than money-grabbers who see nothing beyond "sound economics," we'll be well stuffed." As in well fed I presume you mean!
With soil erosion the problem first has to be accepted.As I previously stated it is a recent realisation that it is a problem in the UK. Sound economics goes beyond pure financial gain. The means of production must also be maintained and this would include accepting what is presumed to be best practise. No one would argue modern agricultural practise is perfect but inevitably change only comes in response to new knowledge. Sometimes this is to the good, sometimes to the bad. Soil compaction, erosion, using chemicals indiscriminately............... -legislation is slowly taking these factors into account. You may have an argument that change should occur faster in terms of reacting to new knowledge, but it is happening. Chemicals can no longer be used indiscriminately, operators of spray equipment have to be trained, chemicals previously used are banned. Upland areas are subjected to far more controls than was the case even 20 years ago. Agriculture is certainly not the free for all that you endaevour to portray.


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Aug 17 - 10:43 AM

It isn't a free-for-all but it's a damn sight easier for farmers to cheat. Agriculture routinely indulges in what it knows very well to be expediently bad practice until it is stopped by legislation. Soil erosion has been recognised as a time-bomb since well before I studied it at university in the 60s. As it happens, my personal tutor was one of the leading soil scientists in the world at the time. Soil accumulating at the bottoms of badly-ploughed fields (autumn ploughing followed by soil left bare in winter, or a failure to contour-plough), rivers and drains silting up causing flooding, straw and stubble-burning polluting the atmosphere and leading to loss of organic matter that should have been ploughed in, the stripping away of hundreds of thousands of miles of hedgerow (look at the legacy - miles and miles of sterile barley-prairies all over the southern half of England), crop rotation replaced by massive fertiliser and biocide input, hundred-acre, or much bigger, fields of depressing monoculture, all in the name of "economy of scale" (and much of the wheat and barley we grow is so piss-poor that it's fit only to be fed to animals, the poor sods). A five-hundred acre farm near me consists mostly of three or four huge fields. Recently he's been growing oilseed rape in them, a crop that can't survive without massive chemical input. After that he turned to linseed, a crop that nobody needs and which can be harvested only when weedkiller has killed and dessicated it. Have you SEEN what a linseed field looks like in September? Fortunately, the fad seems to have passed. Now we're on maize, just about the leading culprit in terms of soil erosion. Just for the tourists he has a "wildlife centre" behind an artificial pond. Sheesh. I walk across those fields occasionally and the only wildlife I see is the distant gulls flying over the beach, through binoculars of course. Bad practice caused the drains on the Somerset Levels to fill rapidly with silt. But guess who the farmers want to pay for dredging it out again...


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: Raggytash
Date: 15 Aug 17 - 11:10 AM

At the risk of upsetting people Ian Botham needs Linseed. How can you oil a cricket bat without it.



I'll get me coat.


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: Iains
Date: 15 Aug 17 - 11:34 AM

"and much of the wheat and barley we grow is so piss-poor that it's fit only to be fed to animals, the poor sods."
WRONG AGAIN!

Wheat is the most widely grown arable crop in the UK. On average, it covers around two million hectares of land and produces about 15 million tonnes each year. Wheat is a versatile crop and is used mainly for milling into flour for bread and starch - about 40% of annual production - and as an animal feed ingredient - around 50% - with most of the rest being exported. It is found in numerous food products, including bread, cakes, biscuits and breakfast cereals. (Barley prairies???)
Barley is grown on around one million hectares and produces an output of around five million tonnes. About 1.7 million tonnes are used in the production of malt - a key ingredient in beer and whisky. The remaining barley is mostly used in animal feeds or exported.

The majority of cereals are sown in the autumn, known as 'winter cereals' as the young plants have to survive the winter in the open fields. These cereals are usually higher yielding because of the longer growing period. The remaining cereals are sown in the spring.


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 15 Aug 17 - 11:47 AM

I can't comment on the "piss poor bit" but I don't read a statement indicating much of our wheat goes for animal feed disagreeing with one that says 50% goes towards animal feed.

A bit confused here.


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Aug 17 - 11:59 AM

Thanks Jon. In fact, his figures reveal the situation to be even worse than I thought.


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Aug 17 - 01:55 PM

i think most slaughtermen i have talked to concede that the process of being slaughtered is frightening and stressful to the animal.

i can't really see your difficulty in just admitting that we hate rich people because we find them obnoxious. Even if they lured foxes with offers of a six week holiday, administered a pleasant sedative and played them their favourite movie - prior to killing them with kindness.

i still wouldn't like the rich!


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Aug 17 - 02:25 PM

That TV program I linked to centers on making extremely protein rich flour from insects that require barely any land, water, resources to grow,
and the delicious nutricious foodstuffs that can be made from them...

..plus the cute lady scientist is a potential TV star along the lines of that science bloke who used to be a pop star...


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Aug 17 - 05:05 PM

"i can't really see your difficulty in just admitting that we hate rich people because we find them obnoxious."

I have no such difficulty. It's just that you've never asked me.


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Aug 17 - 02:17 AM

theres some really weird videos of people shooting rats on youtube. some of them have really expensive equipment, to see at night, and they hide behind dustbins. its not their job - they just do it to shoot rats for fun. surprising hobby for fairly middle class people - shooting rats!

that's a weird thing to do.

also theres a man whose dog kills tats. he's stood there beside a pile the size of a haystack.   you wouldn't believe there were so many rats.

can't imagine what they do with all the bodies. could they be recycled?


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Aug 17 - 03:51 AM

Rats are a delicious roasted treat in some cultures...


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Aug 17 - 06:45 AM

Ratatouille?

:D tG


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Aug 17 - 07:17 AM

perhaps we should export our rats to the places where they are a rare treat.

just another glittering post Brexit opportunity!


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Aug 17 - 07:19 AM

when you think about it - we would be market leaders. we could charge more, because out rats are organic.


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: Teribus
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 11:56 AM

Steve Shaw - 15 Aug 17 - 06:02 AM

From your above post Shaw you obviously know S.F.A. about how a grouse shoot is organised and conducted.

"let's see how a typical grouse might meet its end. First, it will be flushed out, terrified by a beater.

Or alternatively by Oiks such as Gnome or yourself, Shaw, obliviously clumping about exercising your "right to roam" irrespective of the damage you cause driving birds from their nests abandoning their eggs or chicks.

Then it will endure a hail of thunderous shooting, adding to the terror.

All depends upon which way they fly Shaw. If they are canny enough to stay on the ground they are perfectly safe.

Then, if it hasn't been actually shot just yet, the fear will be compounded by vicious dogs charging through the flock.

Ah Shaw where do these vicious dogs come from? On a grouse shoot the only dogs that are there are trained gun dogs who are trained to retrieve the birds and are all breeds known for having "soft mouths" so as not to damage the birds. What "flock" Shaw - grouse do not "flock"

I see you are still hammering your stereotypes Shaw:

I wonder how many of those hooray-Henry shooters and hunters go to the pub that evening railing against the evils of halal... not a lot, probably, come to think of it. They won't know very much at all about what those "Muslim chappies" get up to. I've mixed with a few of these sporting types in my time in the rural pubs round here and they aren't usually the sharpest knives in the drawer, let's say.

I take it that in referring to the "rural pubs round here" you are talking about Bude? Kernow? If so the those "Hooray-Henry's" of yours would be one fuck of a long way from any grouse shoot the nearest would have been Exmoor and that would have been 12 years ago as they went extinct down there in 2005.

Red Grouse a native species of these islands only exist because their habitat is looked after and managed left to the likes of Shaw, Gnome, pfr et al the birds would be extinct inside ten years.


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 01:09 PM

Red Grouse a native species of these islands only exist because their habitat is looked after and managed left to the likes of Shaw, Gnome, pfr et al the birds would be extinct inside ten years.

There you go again, Tezzer. Flights of fancy (pun intended). Neither you nor I nor anyone else has any idea what would really happen if things change. There are too many variables to predict with any accuracy. The red grouse, a native species as you say, survived quite happily before the invention of grouse shooting. Did someone look after their habitat then? I think not.

Then again, you seem to believe that I was not born because my Dad died during the invasion of Poland. I suppose the imaginary extinction of a bird is small beer compared to that.

Oh, and going back to a posting I made earlier.

Fuck off.

:D tG


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 01:10 PM

Oh, and I also "know S.F.A. about how a grouse shoot is organised and conducted". I am proud of that fact and would take it as a compliment.

D.


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 01:54 PM

Hands up all those who thought that when I said "hunters and shooters" I meant just the grouse nuts. Clown.

As for a native species becoming extinct in ten years without our help in maintaining an entirely artificial habitat for them, well I wonder what all the other thousands of native species did to survive for all those thousands of years before we came along. What twaddle.


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 02:28 PM

"Red Grouse a native species of these islands only exist because their habitat is looked after and managed left to the likes of Shaw, Gnome, pfr et al the birds would be extinct inside ten years. "


Tessy - what do you mean...???

The wealthy landed gentry wield such almighty godlike power over life and extinction...???
We mere mortals may only cower and worship under their aristocratic holy benevolent radiance...

errrmmm.. bollocks...!!!

So the rich get to pick and choose which endangered species are truly worthy of continued existence in our country side...???

well I'll be badgered.... 🙄


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 02:43 PM

The red grouse is not regarded as in any way an endangered species. As I said, twaddle from Teribus.


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 08:23 PM

where you thinking about the rat shooters when you talked about the hunters and shooters.

I've got to admit - I'd never heard of these people with night vision goggles costing a couple of grand, and airguns the size of rocket launchers. i'm not sure how i feel about someone who would shoot rats for fun. a bit sad for them i suppose - although they seem happy enough.

i suppose theres no real danger of rats becoming extinct - worse luck! In my days as a an old peoples entertainer I remember talking to an old lady, whose husband had been a sewage worker an was killed by a rat bite.

i wonder if these shooters know how dangerous a bite from these animals can be.


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 08:39 PM

If the toffs would only shoot seagulls I'd might even doff my cap and volunteer to scare the feathery vermin shitbags up into the air for them...!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 08:50 PM

Couldn't they shoot these bastard mozzies that have been eating me all summer? Jethro Bodine could shoot flies off a wall at a hundred yards. I know the toffs are only a tenth as intelligent as Jethro, but I'm sure they could be trained...


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: Teribus
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 09:12 PM

Steve Shaw - 18 Aug 17 - 01:54 PM

Hands up all those who thought that when I said "hunters and shooters" I meant just the grouse nuts. Clown./I>

Tell us then Shaw why is it that you and Gnome find it so difficult to state exactly what you mean. Why are you both so shy about giving us your opinions on things.

Your so called "hooray-Henry's" are a figment of your imagination. You told a story and were caught out on it. Tell me you pretentious prick, what hunting/shooting parties you have met and conversed with down in your "beloved Kernow".


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: Teribus
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 09:19 PM

Steve Shaw - 18 Aug 17 - 02:43 PM

The red grouse is not regarded as in any way an endangered species. As I said, twaddle from Teribus.


Really?

"The British{GROUSE} population is estimated at about 250,000 pairs with around 1–5,000 pairs in Ireland. Numbers have declined in recent years and birds are now absent in areas where they were once common. Reasons for the decline include loss of heather due to overgrazing, creation of new conifer plantations and a decline in the number of upland gamekeepers."

Now then Shaw tell me what we have had in the UK that they have NOT HAD in Ireland.


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 10:06 PM

i dunno. Jethro Tull....? He owns Scotland And the queen, she's got a bit.

meanwhile ...your never more than nine feet away from a rat...
you're never alone with a strand,,,,cos theres a rat lurking somewhere near.


http://i2.ytimg.com/vi/k4Fzglep9ng/mqdefault.jpg


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Aug 17 - 03:09 AM

For thousands of years before the gun was invented the grouse happily made our uplands its habitat. Then people decided it was fun to shoot it so they had to employ gamekeepers to make sure it did not become extinct. And your argument, tezzer, is that if we stopped 'managing' grouse moors it would become extinct. Is that right? Would it not be a lot easier to stop shooting it, stop employing gamekeepers and stop pissing about with its natural habitat?

As to why is it that you and Gnome find it so difficult to state exactly what you mean. I have no such issue. What do you want my opinion on?

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: Iains
Date: 19 Aug 17 - 04:07 AM

" The population is declining, perhaps linked to diseases and the loss of heather moorland."From the RSPB.
Depending on how you define endangered, the grouse population already is, or if the situation remains unchanged, it will be. This decline has also occurred in Ireland .

https://www.npws.ie/sites/default/files/publications/pdf/2013_RedGrouse_SAP.pdf

Bracken spreading at up to 3% a year also encroaches on habitat. It does not help the situation that the most effective spray for bracken is banned in the EU and only allowed in 2017 by emergency authorisation. Also in Ireland the perceived overstocking on commonage led to compulsory destocking that in turn led to under grazing. For many commonages grazing and burning are the only management tools available. No animals like old woody heather and in certain areas gorse will encroach if grazing is inadaquate. Areas of older heather do supply cover and nesting.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/letters/11123483/The-spread-of-bracken-is-bad-news-for-everyone.html


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Aug 17 - 05:39 AM

A large bird with a population in the hundreds of thousands is not endangered. There has been a decline over the long term, but the population has been actually been increasing over the last decade. Shooting of grouse has declined dramatically in popularity over the last century. The consequence of that is that large areas formerly managed in order to maximise red grouse populations have been abandoned (so that old, woody heather unsuitable for grouse, or scrub and/or or bracken have taken over) or planted with conifers. Fewer gamekeepers means that there are more natural predators around (which is precisely how it should be - shhh, don't tell Sir Ian), which prevent populations from staying artificially high as they are on those carefully-managed grouse moors. So can we please have a bit less of the Daily Mail-style hyperdrama and a bit more of sticking to the facts. There are plenty of red grice in Britain and always will be as long as suitable natural habitat remains available.

By the way, upland mismanagement by way of bad grazing practice is entirely responsible for bracken spread. That's very unfortunate, as bracken is next to useless as far as biodiversity is concerned.


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Aug 17 - 05:57 AM

"Your so called "hooray-Henry's" are a figment of your imagination. You told a story and were caught out on it. Tell me you pretentious prick, what hunting/shooting parties you have met and conversed with..."

The pub I've done much of my drinking in in the last thirty years is the foremost hunting pub round here, the place where the hunts start off from. So I do indeed know plenty of those people, thank you very much. I also met many parents and pupils who were keen hunters and I often had to bite my lip. It would be very nice if you would refrain from coming out with insults based on your sour-grapes ignorance. I live in dyed-in-the-wool hunting country here, I live on a farm which is pro-hunting along with all the other farms round here and I've been here for thirty years, OK? I also know the area around Exford on Exmoor, where stags are hunted and the barroom walls are festooned with stags' heads à la Manuel. I once got embroiled in a rather threatening row with a bunch of hunters in the Exford Arms. It wasn't of my making, rather that of the bloke I was sinking a few bevvies with, who was stridently anti-hunting, getting a bit aerated. I did try to tell him that it was a great idea in that pub... it did show up the hooray-Henrys at their very worst, however.

I've never met and conversed with any "hunting/shooting parties" and I never said that I did.


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Aug 17 - 05:58 AM

That it WASN'T a great idea is what I meant.


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Aug 17 - 06:03 AM

Your experiences and conversations with those figments of your imagination ("Hooray-Henry's) cannot be elaborated on Shaw?

Seen any flocks of red grouse down there in Kernow Shaw? You know the ones Shaw the ones that are farmed and are so over-fed that they can barely fly.

No signs of those packs of vicious dogs?

Still no explanation for why 250,000 pairs in certain parts of the UK but only 1,000 to 5,000 pairs in the whole of Ireland. I would suggest that it has something to do with the fact that in the parts of the UK where you do find red grouse their habitat is looked after while in other parts of the country where it has not been looked after and in Ireland where it has not been looked after the populations have gone, or are in rapid decline.


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: Iains
Date: 19 Aug 17 - 06:38 AM

" bad grazing practice is entirely responsible for bracken spread."
A bit of a simplification. Upland grazing density is largely controlled by EU diktat. This led to compulsory de-stocking in the past and some argue grazing quality diminished as a result. In Ireland a minimum stocking density on commonage is required to comply with commonage framework plans.
If you cannot spray bracken, or access an area with machinery, stock trampling is the only tool left. On a free range upland no animal is going to look for grazing under a sterile stand of bracken. Therefore the bracken runs rampant apart from odd tracks made by sheep wandering from one gourmet grazing to another.
Uplands are completely artificial landscapes in the UK. The highland clearances and enclosure acts ran off all the smallholders and cottagers or their equivalent and sheep took over. They have largely monopolized the uplands ever since and the vegetational types present are directly controlled by the grazing regime. Without grazing the moors would be transformed within 2 generations.

randd.defra.gov.uk/Document.aspx?Document=BD1226_3897_FRA.pdf


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Aug 17 - 06:45 AM

Hunting Bude companies: Check prices and get the best deals through the best companies in Hunting activities Bude as terriers, lurchers, falconry, ferrets, hounds & beagles, shooting, trapping and much more!

WOT No Grouse!!!! Where on earth did Shaw gain all his expert knowledge from?

What you are looking at there Shaw is rabbit, hare, foxes, pheasant and partridge.

Exford, Exmoor you have to leave the county you live in, drive clean through another and enter a third accompanied by some "wind-up" merchant to have an aeriated and heated discussion with "hunting types"? Yet you claim to "live" in the heart of hunting country. When it comes to subjects like this Shaw, pity you don't "bite your lip" a bit more. But rest assured Shaw, what would I know about hunting? Apart of course from being someone who hunts pheasant, duck, Roe Deer, Sika Deer, Red Deer, Elg, Wild Boar in the UK, Canada and Europe - I mean none of that actual hands on experience would match your ideologically driven myths and fairy-tales would it?


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Aug 17 - 07:04 AM

Uplands above 3000 feet are generally natural habitats in the UK. Below that most upland would have been wooded. To that extent it is a deflected climax vegetation type but it isn't correct to say that it's completely artificial. Steep rocky slopes, cliffs, rock ledges and ravines, as well as rivers, streams, mires and tarns are generally less impacted by human interference and there are pockets of natural vegetation in places. Abandoning upland is unlikely to result in reversion to the original climax. Invasion by bracken and soil leaching and erosion as a consequence of deforestation would see to that.

"Your experiences and conversations with those figments of your imagination ("Hooray-Henry's) cannot be elaborated on Shaw?"

I've elaborated and you can take it or leave it, clown.

"Seen any flocks of red grouse down there in Kernow Shaw? You know the ones Shaw the ones that are farmed and are so over-fed that they can barely fly.

No signs of those packs of vicious dogs?"

I have no idea what any of this has got to do with what we're supposedly talking about. I certainly haven't said anything about Cornish grice.

"Still no explanation for why 250,000 pairs in certain parts of the UK but only 1,000 to 5,000 pairs in the whole of Ireland."

You haven't asked me. Look it up for yourself, stop guessing and stick to the facts. They are available.


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Aug 17 - 07:08 AM

Yeah, sure, I believe every word of that. You're far too ancient for a start. . 😂😂😂

Thing is, I'm a biologist. Still, I'm sure you'll find all the facts you want in the Daily Mail or somewhere.


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Aug 17 - 08:39 AM

Red Grouse are indeed very scarce in this part of Scotland and Teribus is correct in pointing out that draining and afforestation have killed off almost all the heather that used to cover the hills here.
As the grouse need heather to survive they are now an endangered species.


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: Raggytash
Date: 19 Aug 17 - 08:56 AM

An endangered species with 230,000 of them?

RSPB Red Grouse


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Aug 17 - 09:17 AM

There's plenty of heather and they're not endangered. Dunno how many times you need telling. Of course, you can always look it up instead of making it up.


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Aug 17 - 10:21 AM

Steve...in the West of Scotland huge areas of land(mainly hillsides for drainage) are given over to afforestation with quick growing Sitka Spruce, whenever these forests are reasonably mature 20/30 years, they are immediately replanted.....nothing grows there but trees. In my youth all these hills were covered with beautiful purple heather and grazed by flocks of sheep, there was grouse a plenty and ptarmigan on the high tops. My Grandfather used to carry his beehives up onto the hillside among the heather so that the bees could work it.
I haven't seen a wild red grouse for many years and heather only grows in tiny clumps by the roadside.
My work takes me in around a fifty mile radius and almost all the high ground is Spruce forest.


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 Aug 17 - 11:08 AM

Wot a strange world - hunters complaining that grouse are endangered...!!!???

I seem to recall hunting is considered a primary factor in species extinctions since the ice age...???


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Aug 17 - 11:30 AM

That's your relatively small area. It doesn't mean that red grouse is an endangered species in general. Like all species, it's vulnerable to habitat change. In this case that means the abandonment or afforestation of areas previously used to encourage artificially high populations. As I said, grouse shooting has dramatically fallen in popularity. Overall numbers would have to plunge dramatically below 250,000 pairs, that is half a million birds, before it could be remotely described as endangered. Plenty of information available on all this. No need to take my word for any of it.


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Aug 17 - 11:44 AM

Before human intervention and deforestation the trees growing below the tree line were of the broad-leaved deciduous type. A lot of these were lost to farming and 'management'. Subsequently the forestry commission have planted needle leaved evergreens which, although being able to grow at a slightly higher altitude that the prior deciduous forests, have nowhere near replaced the lost forests of Great Britain. Saying that open moorland has been lost to forestation is misleading as in general there is now more open land than forest. Re-foresting is merely trying to get redress the loss of forest and is fighting a losing battle.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 Aug 17 - 12:01 PM

' But rest assured Shaw, what would I know about hunting? Apart of course from being someone who hunts pheasant, duck, Roe Deer, Sika Deer, Red Deer, Elg, Wild Boar in the UK, Canada and Europe'

you see Steve.....he keeps schtum when you mention rats....bit of a dilettante, i reckon. probably has a pith helmet and a couple of native bearers...Ernest Hemingway would have drunk him under the table.


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Aug 17 - 12:16 PM

Steve,
There's plenty of heather and they're not endangered. Dunno how many times you need telling. Of course, you can always look it up instead of making it up.

RSPB say different.

"Red grouse depend on heather for food and cover. A major cause of their decline has been the destruction, fragmentation and deterioration of heather moorland. This has reduced the plant food for adults, while drainage has reduced the boggy plants and insects on which grouse chicks depend. In Scotland, 4,165 km2 (23%) of heather was lost between the 1940s and 1980s, while an even greater proportion (27%) was lost in England.8 The loss was substantially greater in some areas, such as 48% of heather from Langholm Moor between 1948 and 1988.11 A further 510 km2 (3.6%) of heather was lost from the UK between 1990 md 1998.9 There is broad agreement that grazing by sheep and deer is responsible for much of this loss. Sheep numbers more than doubled to 40 million animals between 1950 and 1990 and there are 500,000–750,000 deer in Scotland alone, the most at any time since the last Ice Age.
https://www.rspb.org.uk/Images/birdofprey_redgrouse_tcm9-188710.pdf


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Aug 17 - 01:36 PM

Good heavens Keith don't confuse our "biologist" with facts - they contradict and disprove his myths and fairy-tale version of the world.

Too ancient for what Shaw? Too ancient to know what Shaw? You certainly know S.F.A. about the subject under discussion.

Surprised at this though:

"I have no idea what any of this has got to do with what we're supposedly talking about. I certainly haven't said anything about Cornish grice."

Your local - in Bude, Cornwall, sorry Kernow, where you have lived, "biting your lip" for thirty years in the heart of hunting country you say?

You were certainly talking about hunters and shooters and grouse when you posted this:

Steve Shaw - 15 Aug 17 - 06:02 AM

"let's see how a typical grouse might meet its end. First, it will be flushed out, terrified by a beater.

Then it will endure a hail of thunderous shooting, adding to the terror.

Then, if it hasn't been actually shot just yet, the fear will be compounded by vicious dogs charging through the flock.

I wonder how many of those hooray-Henry shooters and hunters go to the pub that evening railing against the evils of halal... not a lot, probably, come to think of it. They won't know very much at all about what those "Muslim chappies" get up to. I've mixed with a few of these sporting types in my time in the rural pubs round here
{Bude} and they aren't usually the sharpest knives in the drawer, let's say.

Care to mention where it was that you picked up all this information on "how a typical grouse might meet its end" - Let's say that when it comes to hunting you and your pals aren't the sharpest knives in the drawer - Clown.


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 Aug 17 - 01:47 PM

My favourite uncle knew all about hunting, he had dogs, ferrets, shotguns, and a transit van...

Many's the time he'd come home from an opportunistic drive around the country lanes of south west England
with meat to supplement our family's low income as small market town factory workers...

He was a genuine old world roguish country man so beloved by middle class folklorists...


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Aug 17 - 02:26 PM

Go and boil your head, Teribus. You too, Keith.


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Aug 17 - 02:31 PM

As ever you resort to abuse when your ignorance is exposed.
Just abuse. No substance.


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Aug 17 - 02:34 PM

Whatever. Just bugger off and do us all a favour.


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 Aug 17 - 02:45 PM

All this talk about heather reminds me..
I used to go out with a girl called Heather, I was 17 she was 15 or 16...
Very fit young lady..
We never actually did 'it' but I'll have to check my old notebook to remember just how far we went...
oh, I digress....

Right now back on to the topic of killing for pleasure and trophies...


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Subject: RE: BS: The (in)glorious 12th
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Aug 17 - 04:25 PM

probably has a pith helmet and a couple of native bearers...

Absolutely- what else would be appropriate for Colonel Blimp?


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Mudcat time: 19 August 4:29 PM EDT

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