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BS: brexit matters

Teribus 14 Sep 17 - 05:31 PM
Iains 14 Sep 17 - 05:21 PM
David Carter (UK) 14 Sep 17 - 05:02 PM
Iains 14 Sep 17 - 04:58 PM
David Carter (UK) 14 Sep 17 - 04:30 PM
Big Al Whittle 14 Sep 17 - 04:17 PM
akenaton 14 Sep 17 - 04:02 PM
Iains 14 Sep 17 - 03:52 PM
Jim Carroll 14 Sep 17 - 03:02 PM
Steve Shaw 14 Sep 17 - 01:51 PM
Big Al Whittle 14 Sep 17 - 01:35 PM
Jim Carroll 14 Sep 17 - 01:30 PM
Teribus 14 Sep 17 - 01:29 PM
Teribus 14 Sep 17 - 01:15 PM
David Carter (UK) 14 Sep 17 - 01:07 PM
David Carter (UK) 14 Sep 17 - 01:02 PM
akenaton 14 Sep 17 - 12:41 PM
Steve Shaw 14 Sep 17 - 12:31 PM
Big Al Whittle 14 Sep 17 - 12:23 PM
Jim Carroll 14 Sep 17 - 12:18 PM
Jim Carroll 14 Sep 17 - 12:18 PM
Teribus 14 Sep 17 - 11:36 AM
David Carter (UK) 14 Sep 17 - 11:33 AM
Nigel Parsons 14 Sep 17 - 11:20 AM
Steve Shaw 14 Sep 17 - 10:55 AM
Nigel Parsons 14 Sep 17 - 10:26 AM
Big Al Whittle 14 Sep 17 - 10:26 AM
Steve Shaw 14 Sep 17 - 10:09 AM
Big Al Whittle 14 Sep 17 - 09:47 AM
Stanron 14 Sep 17 - 09:41 AM
Steve Shaw 14 Sep 17 - 09:28 AM
Nigel Parsons 14 Sep 17 - 09:14 AM
Steve Shaw 14 Sep 17 - 09:04 AM
Nigel Parsons 14 Sep 17 - 08:56 AM
Steve Shaw 14 Sep 17 - 08:52 AM
David Carter (UK) 14 Sep 17 - 08:35 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Sep 17 - 08:35 AM
Nigel Parsons 14 Sep 17 - 08:33 AM
Big Al Whittle 14 Sep 17 - 08:27 AM
Steve Shaw 14 Sep 17 - 08:06 AM
Dave the Gnome 14 Sep 17 - 08:06 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Sep 17 - 07:54 AM
Iains 14 Sep 17 - 07:46 AM
Iains 14 Sep 17 - 07:33 AM
Nigel Parsons 14 Sep 17 - 07:26 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Sep 17 - 07:15 AM
Nigel Parsons 14 Sep 17 - 07:04 AM
Steve Shaw 14 Sep 17 - 07:00 AM
Dave the Gnome 14 Sep 17 - 06:59 AM
Iains 14 Sep 17 - 06:47 AM
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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 05:31 PM

Your second sentence has got it. Your third is nonsense - it is solely because of the right of free movement that they get away with it - even Jeremy Corbyn twigged that.

Oh dear 👨🏻‍🎓 I must be really getting to you - told you about that "tell" of yours before. Fact is 👨🏻‍🎓you've never worked in the real world one day in your life - let's face it you got paid for attendance only - hmmmm gold plated final salary pension too that the tax payer has to subsidise. What a poor return for their money.


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Iains
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 05:21 PM

David Carter(UK) We would hope that your interpretation is correct. But it is also true that the number of convictions is also influenced by the weight of resources utilized to address the problem.


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 05:02 PM

Which seems to suggest that non-compliance with the law is a diminishing problem.


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Iains
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 04:58 PM

"the point is its name calling. and it doesn't contribute anything to the discussion except animosity"

This is mental midget here (Jimmie's favourite desription of me), that seems to have a habit of talking down to people, and I agree with you. Tell me Stevie, do I talk down to you as well? This concept does raise some interesting ideas about self worth. Seems to be those same people that like to call others insecure are in reality the ones with a problem.
I suppose they must have their little jest, but who is laughing at whom I wonder?

Now for some accurate figures concerning gangmasters:

http://www.gla.gov.uk/our-impact/conviction-totals/


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 04:30 PM

A foreign company employing people in the UK has to comply with UK labour law. What you may be saying is that a foreign company which wins a contract in the UK can bring its own workforce with it under its own terms and conditions, and pay them under their domestic law. First, this will not be stopped by ending free movement, only by ending free trade. Second, it works both ways, British companies can take their own workforce with them to fulfil contracts abroad. But this is irrelevant to the situation where the end user is a domestic company. It isn't that a domestic company is contracting a Hungarian one to pick fruit on its farms. It is employing Hungarian workers at UK rates, probably because Hungarian workers are just more productive.


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 04:17 PM

the point is its name calling. and it doesn't contribute anything to the discussion except animosity


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 04:02 PM

"Remoaner"....call that an insult?   I think that it's an accurate description.

Now if it's insults you want dear readers, just trawl back through Jim or Steve's contributions.


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Iains
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 03:52 PM

http://www.gla.gov.uk/media/1584/jrf-forced-labour-in-the-uk.pdf

http://ohrh.law.ox.ac.uk/zero-tolerance-for-severe-forms-of-labour-exploitation-in-the-uk/

note the date below!

http://www.cpc.ac.uk/publications/cpc_working_papers/pdf/2012_WP20_East_Central_European_Migration_Perspective_of_Employers_McCo


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 03:02 PM

"yes Ake you've let the side down with that remoaner jibe"
Trolls live alone under Bridges
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 01:51 PM

"The side," Al? Not picky, are you?

Bill "Teribus" Woodcock, I don't doubt, and have said so, that there are workers in this country who are paid below the legal minimum. But it is illegal. Against the law. A contract signed outside this country that breaches our laws is not valid in this country. And did you have such terrible teachers? You have one hell of a chip on your shoulder about us, you poor thing.


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 01:35 PM

yes Ake you've let the side down with that remoaner jibe


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 01:30 PM

"Hate to burst your bubble by introducing reality Shaw"
"Not surprised by your lack of knowledge wrt the real working world you've never worked in it."
"giving the remoaners the bums rush."
Nice to see the level of friendly, intelligent debating level is being maintained y our superiors!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 01:29 PM

Wrong Carter, what you started as being the case would amount to restraint of trade. Illegal within the EU as part of free movement. What jurisdiction applies to a commercial contract depends entirely on where that contract is signed. That great screed that Shaw pasted would apply to any worker signing up with a British employer with the contract signed in the U.K.

Oh just to clarify things for you, Cameron and the "pig thing" - it never happened - sorry to piss on your fireworks. If you doubt it you could always waste your time and energy by trying to find some substantive evidence that it did. So far many with far greater and better resources and contacts than you have tried and failed.


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 01:15 PM

Hate to burst your bubble by introducing reality Shaw. What you state with regard to foreign companies trading within the EU just ain't so. Not surprised by your lack of knowledge wrt the real working world you've never worked in it. 👨🏻‍🎓


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 01:07 PM

Triads of course being a well known EU organisation. Illegal employment practices must be cracked down on and the government, specifically HMRC, is often remiss in doing so.

Steve is of course right, and Teribus is wrong, any contract which results in workers in the UK being paid less than the NLW is illegal.


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 01:02 PM

If Cameron wanted more self respect, for a start he should not have done that thing with the pig. As it is I have far, far mor respect for Juncker, Barnier etc., even though their competence may cost the UK dear, than I do for any of those on the UK side of the current negotiating table. I can only hope that they remember that at least 48% of us did not want the current shambles, and hold out for us an offer of something like paid for associate EU citizenship


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 12:41 PM

I'm really enjoying this.....the most intelligent and well versed contributors giving the remoaners the bums rush.

Also good stuff from Big Al straight from the heart.


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 12:31 PM

No foreign contract that ends up with workers in this country receiving less than the UK minimum wage is legal in this country. You are wrong about that. The information on the Unison website is no different from that on the government website. Your comment on that was pointless.


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 12:23 PM

i've always liked the van dykes.
you can think - chopped that bastards head off!


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 12:18 PM

"i want to live in Buckingham Palace - but that's not how it is."
Why should anybody want to surround themself with such poor taste and ostentation?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 12:18 PM

"i want to live in Buckingham Palace - but that's not how it is."
Why should anybody want to surround themself with such poor taste and ostentation?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 11:36 AM

Good heavens Shaw - the world as it should be according to UNITE - Wow.
Only Problem is the foreign contracts are legal and binding and because of EU law that permits gangs of labourers to be taken on in Bulgaria, Poland, etc and sent to work in the U.K. The ganger has a Company that has a contract with a British employer. The latter by the way IS paying the hanger' company the going rate.

Remember the Chinese "cocklers" in Morecombe Bay Shaw - they were working for Gangers who were connected to the Triads - not the most law abiding of organisations.

Try to limit you input to what happens in the real world.


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 11:33 AM

You are being deliberately obtuse Nigel. If Company Directors are immigrants, then their entitlement or otherwise to the NLW is exactly the same as any other company directors. As for seasonal workers being company directors, that is just silly.


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 11:20 AM

As for showing Cameron more respect, what respect did he show the EU?
Showing Cameron more respect? I think you've just made that one up.
Respect needs to be earned. However, courtesy is due to anyone.
What Big Al actually said (not how you translated it) was:
should have treated David Cameron more courteously and left him a figleaf of self respect

Cheers
Nigel


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 10:55 AM

I certainly agree with him about Schengen and I can't see that having a finance minister would be so bad. My feeling about the euro is that it was a massive mistake. It has certainly done very little to promote harmony or unity and has crucified at various times some of the poorer countries. There are times when your currency has to be allowed to float. The euro has benefited Germany way more and above all the other eurozone members. The architects of the single currency must have thought that there would be much more harmonisation of the relative wealth of the different economies. It was a nice idea but it was never going to happen.

As for showing Cameron more respect, what respect did he show the EU? He went in there guns blazing, full of hubris, promising us the earth, trying to kid them that they needed us so badly, with tbe blackmail of his referendum the only weapon in his armoury. He got next to nowt and that's precisely what he deserved. One thing's for sure. He doesn't deserve the respect of anyone in this country any more. Tragically, David Davis has the same attitude. The EU will manage very well without us. He doesn't see that. Juncker saw it precisely correctly yesterday. It took Farage's brainless intervention to draw it undiplomatically out of him.


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 10:26 AM

Juncker has been prattling on about a European army for years and it's getting no closer. Eurosceptics here have been prattling on about a United States of Europe for decades without actually explaining how the EU, with its highly-disparate states and cultures, each with its own strong sense of nationalism, not to speak of all the multiple languages and currencies,
The disparate currencies won't be a problem. There was already a requirement for any new members of the EU to adopt the Euro. In yesterday's speech Mr Juncker call for more work to get rid of the disparate currencies.
Juncker proposed more help for all EU countries to join the euro, so that it could be truly "the single currency of the European Union", along with a wide range of institutional changes, including the creation of an EU finance minister and the widening of the Schengen area, in which passport-free travel is allowed.
(from The Guardian)


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 10:26 AM

well if he really wanted harmony and England not leaving the EU. He and all other EU big wigs should have treated David Cameron more courteously and left him a figleaf of self respect so that he could homeward in triumph.

they didn't . they treated the english pm like shit. and the english people got a very clear vision of the role they had in mind for us, and the regard they had for us - apart from our money - which they still seem to think they've got some sort of right to.

in truth we'll be holding our guts in for years after the years of filleting england's industry. 2 years doesn't even begin. but if you're in business with an asshole who has no respect for you. lose him ASAP.


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 10:09 AM

Juncker has been prattling on about a European army for years and it's getting no closer. Eurosceptics here have been prattling on about a United States of Europe for decades without actually explaining how the EU, with its highly-disparate states and cultures, each with its own strong sense of nationalism, not to speak of all the multiple languages and currencies, is ever going to become an across-the-pond copy of the US. It's one man's vision, there are plenty of powerful naysayers in the EU and, deep down, even you diehard brexiteers know that you will see neither in our lifetimes. Of course he wants more harmony in a frequently-turbulent EU. That's his job. But jumping on one man's very unoriginal speech in order to say there, told you so, we wuz right all along...very valiant of you. But I absolutely promise you that you won't be saying that in two years' time. If I'm wrong I'll eat Paddy Pantsdown's hat and appear on Match Of The Day in my underpants (if I can find any).


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 09:47 AM

i want to live in Buckingham Palace - but that's not how it is.

what the fuck would the guardian know or care about the facts of life as lived on this island?

they're journalists with cushy jobs, a political agenda to push....

thus the stunned amazement at the result of the referendum. well bugger me sideways...there is a reality out there that we weren't aware of! How dare they disagree with the good people of Planet Radio 4?


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Stanron
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 09:41 AM

When people who wished to leave predicted a move towards a United States of Europe, those who wished to remain dismissed the idea as fantasy. It is now clear that that is the true European destiny. The same applies to the idea of a European army. Another idea, dismissed by those trying to persuade us to stay, confirmed by Mr Junker yesterday.-


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 09:28 AM

That post demonstrates nothing as far as I can see.


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 09:14 AM

If you're interested in "clutching at straws" you should read, Mr Juncker's speech from yesterday.

When Brexit was being debated (before the referendum) we were told that Brexit represented a leap into the dark, compared to the status quo of remaining in the EU.
Brexit argued that the status quo would not last, and that to remain would be a "leap in the dark".

Quod Erat Demonstrandum


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 09:04 AM

So, Al, the gangers and the farmers are breaking the law. The migrant workers are not. They are being exploited by law-breakers. Saying that 'twas ever thus and sort of implying that there's no point fighting it is blinkered and defeatist, and that attitude has been allowed to make the innocents, the migrant workers, into scapegoats. It's the FOREIGNERS (the innocents) who were targeted by the leave campaign, not the farmers or the gangers (the criminals). Dunno about you, but I want to live in a country that operates under the rule of law. And the irony of the leave side's constant claiming that the dictatorial EU imposes it laws on us isn't lost on me. We can't even impose our own laws on ourselves.

By the way, we haven't had the minimum wage "for generations," Al.


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 08:56 AM

From: David Carter (UK) - PM
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 08:35 AM

Nigel Parsons, exactly which of the groups on your fairly long bullet pointed list do you think should be entitled to the National Living Wage? None of those groups are workers at all. The one group I am slightly surprised to find on there is Members of the Armed Forces, though I would think that they would in any case be paid considerably more.

I am not making a claim for any of the listed groups. I am just providing the official guidance to which people are not entitled (at present).
For you to go on and say: What your list does not say is Immigrants or Seasonal Workers, these are entitled to the NLW just the same as anybody else.
That argument falls down as you equate them to "anybody else". As many others are excluded, then which 'anybody else' are you comparing them to?
Immigrants or seasonal workers may also be 'Company Directors' or 'Self-employed' and thus included in the list quoted.


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 08:52 AM

You are clutching at straws, Nigel.


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 08:35 AM

Nigel Parsons, exactly which of the groups on your fairly long bullet pointed list do you think should be entitled to the National Living Wage? None of those groups are workers at all. The one group I am slightly surprised to find on there is Members of the Armed Forces, though I would think that they would in any case be paid considerably more. What your list does not say is Immigrants or Seasonal Workers, these are entitled to the NLW just the same as anybody else.


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 08:35 AM

Mayfly proudly announced yesterday the unemployment was now at its lowest level
What she forgot to mention was this is because unemployed workers are now nbeing forced to take jobs they are not suited for, that they don't want an they come with unlivable-on wages - they are there to make the figures look good rather than halp the unemployed
It took Corbyn to point out that the real wages of those in work are gradually being driven down because of the steady rise in inflation
'And the gap grows wider, and wider and wider…." As the song nearly said
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 08:33 AM

Steve.
If your message was "Germane to the conversation" then my correction of the 'facts' it contained must also have been.

As to your 'simplification of what the Guardian said:

You: Migrant workers do not take British workers' jobs.
The Guardian: "it is not a zero-sum game in which there are only a fixed number of jobs to go round: "It's true that, if an immigrant takes a job, then a British worker can't take that job – but it doesn't mean he or she won't find another one that may have been created, directly or indirectly, as a result of immigration". I doesn't say that he will find such a job, or try to state whether mass immigration creates more or less jobs than the number of immigrants.

You: Migrant workers do not "drive wages down."
The Guardian: "Several studies have shown a small negative effect of migration on the wages of low-skilled workers in certain sectors in certain parts of the country, particularly care workers, shop assistants, and restaurant and bar workers. The effect has been measured at less than 1% over a period of eight years." A small negative effect is, nonetheless an effect.

You: Migrant workers do not overload public services.
The Guardian: mentions this matter only in passing: "EU immigration has not harmed the pay, jobs or public services enjoyed by Britons."

You: Migrant workers actually create extra jobs by coming here.
The Guardian, does mention the creation of jobs because of immigration, but does not state whether this is a net gain in job numbers, or a net loss.


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 08:27 AM

i used to work for this headmaster. we were in the inner ring of brum, and they'd imported him from Wales. they used to believe that headmasters were a bit like bloodstock, and to improve the line - you didn't get someone who knew the kids - you got someone who'd been a whizz amongst the sheep rustlers.

so the guy sat in his office , not daring to walk the corridors of his own school. making up rules we couldn't enforce. making jokes in assembly - he'd got from the readers digest, and we couldn't give a shit about and the kids couldn't understand.

laughter is the best medicine when you're confronted by an idiot.

Steve - the legal entitlements that you speak of have been unenforceable for generations. the agricultural workers are dependant on the gangers for work. the farmers are having their balls squeezed by government regs, they are squeezing the gangers.
they are vulnerable. they have an insurance card etc. but that is their situation - always has been. along come the seasonal workers. it used to be their wives and kids and traveller families. then along comes the economic migrants. they work for even less.

there are no bad guys. its what monkeys do. if you're not a monkey you won't really get it.


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 08:06 AM

So, Nigel, how is that germane to the discussion about EU migrants working in agriculture? If you don't trust a union's website I assure you that the same information is available elsewhere. I'm making the simple point that migrant workers working in this country on whatever basis must be paid at least the UK minimum wage. That's the law. The only deduction that may be made, apart from tax (probably irrelevant in many cases) and NI, is for any accommodation provided, and there are strict rules about the quality of that accommodation and how much may be deducted. It isn't very much. Of course, what actually happens may not comply with the law. But that is the law, and no gangmaster or UK employer may LEGALLY concoct a situation in which foreign workers get less than the UK minimum wage. The leave campaign made great play of the lies that the country is being swamped, social services couldn't cope, British workers were being discriminated against by foreigners taking their jobs and "driving down wages." The counter-argument (aka the truth) that migrant workers provided a net benefit to the economy to the tune of billions a year, were significantly aiding economic growth, were NOT taking jobs away from British workers, were NOT driving down wages and were not unduly burdening public services was lost in the sloganising and populist pandering to the lowest instincts of people emanating from the leave side. Had those truths prevailed in the campaign, we would never have voted to leave. Immigration was the main plank of the leave campaign and the whole thing was predicated on a pack of lies sold to a public who had been groomed in this kind of xenophobia for years.


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 08:06 AM

"effin and blindin" may be not acceptable in polite company but it is neither abuse nor insulting in itself. No matter how politely you put them, insults are still insults.

Talking down to someone is far more insulting that telling them to fuck off. In my opinion.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 07:54 AM

"But as the "effin and blindin" in some of the posts above above came from a leftard then that is perfectly ok and to be encouraged?"
And the personal abuse and hate comes from you and the rest of the right
"Fortunately the list you're referring to is very short, a"
O that's alright then - it's ok to force people to live on a pittance as long as there's only a few of them
One of the great injustices of our society is that there isn't an enforceable Living Wage - as I keep saying - go and look at the growing gap between haves and have nots and the amount that the nation is deprived of by the rich not paying its tax
Of courres, all those greedy workers moonlighting their labour to pay for their second homesin the Bahamas and Jags must be crippling our country
Lock 'em all up and throw away the key, I say
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Iains
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 07:46 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZeHN92SX-5Y

A very interesting speech from the European Parliament building.
A perspective of where we are!


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Iains
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 07:33 AM

"More useful input to the discussion. Carry on if you want to see the thread closed but don't moan when it is."

But as the "effin and blindin" in some of the posts above above came from a leftard then that is perfectly ok and to be encouraged?
The post is not even deleted!


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 07:26 AM

Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 07:15 AM

"You won't get the National Minimum Wage or National Living Wage if you're:"
Wonder if it's considered that all those on the list are not worth it or just that the poor, hard-pushed employer can't afford it?
God knows - the minimum wage is minimum enough as it is - nobody can live decently on it

Fortunately the list you're referring to is very short, and there would be valid reasons to exclude the following from the minimum wage legislation:
•a student doing work experience as part of a higher or further education course
•of compulsory school age
•a volunteer or doing voluntary work
•on a government or European programme
•work shadowing


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 07:15 AM

"You won't get the National Minimum Wage or National Living Wage if you're:"
Wonder if itt's considered that all those on the list are not worth it or just that the poor, hard-pushed employer can't afford it?
God knows - the minimum wage is minimum enough as it is - nobody can live decently on it


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 07:04 AM

Steve Shaw:
The national minimum wage
The national living wage and national minimum wage set minimum hourly rates that employers must legally pay workers in the UK.
Check your pay rate
The national living wage and minimum wage does not apply if you are genuinely self-employed.


Unfortunately, quoting from a Union's website may not always get you a full or factual answer.
From HMRC Here the list of those who may not be covered by National Minimum Wage is somewhat longer:

The following types of workers aren't entitled to the National Minimum Wage or National Living Wage:
• self-employed people running their own business
•company directors
• volunteers or voluntary workers
•workers on a government employment programme, such as the Work Programme
•members of the armed forces
•family members of the employer living in the employer's home
•non-family members living in the employer's home who share in the work and leisure activities, are treated as one of the family and aren't charged for meals or accommodation, for example au pairs
•workers younger than school leaving age (usually 16)
•higher and further education students on a work placement up to 1 year
•workers on government pre-apprenticeships schemes
•people on the following European Union programmes: Leonardo da Vinci, Youth in Action, Erasmus, Comenius
•people working on a Jobcentre Plus Work trial for 6 weeks
•share fishermen
•prisoners
•people living and working in a religious community

Work experience and internships

You won't get the National Minimum Wage or National Living Wage if you're:

•a student doing work experience as part of a higher or further education course
•of compulsory school age
•a volunteer or doing voluntary work
•on a government or European programme
•work shadowing


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 07:00 AM

Iains, this thread, less than two hours ago.

"Nothing sensible to offer so just throw out a few insults in the hope the forum fairy will close this thread as well."

Who's the real clown around here, Iains?


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 06:59 AM

More useful input to the discussion. Carry on if you want to see the thread closed but don't moan when it is.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: brexit matters
From: Iains
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 06:47 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0XZzglak-q4


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