What do these words mean?

Subject: What do these words mean?
From: sophocleese
Date: 09 Jan 00 - 04:49 PM

Hello Folks. I am learning the song The Wife at Ushers Well, 2, from the digitrad. There are a few words that I do not know the meanings for and cannot seem to find. Can anybody out there help me? The words I'm having difficulty with are; birk, carline, channerin worm, syke and sheugh (though I think that is a kind of ditch). None of these words are in the Shorter Oxford or in Mrs Byrne's Dictionary.

Subject: RE: What do these words mean?
From: Penny S.
Date: 09 Jan 00 - 04:51 PM

I think birk would be birch.

Penny

Subject: RE: What do these words mean?
From: Murray on Saltspring
Date: 09 Jan 00 - 04:57 PM

Birk = birch; carline = old woman [masc. form is "carl", Scots form of "churl"]; channerin = gnawing; syke & sheugh mean roughly the same as the other word in the verse, "ditch, watercourse, furrow" etc. Child seems to have liked this a lot: he says "Nothing that we have is is more profoundly affecting."

Subject: RE: What do these words mean?
From: Penny S.
Date: 09 Jan 00 - 05:04 PM

And can you tell me how to pronouce sheugh? It looks like one of those traps that lies in wait for the unwary.

Penny

Subject: RE: What do these words mean?
From: ddw
Date: 09 Jan 00 - 05:04 PM

Hi Sophocleese,

Webster's 9th Collegiate defines birk as birch, carline as a woman, especially an old woman, and sheugh as a ditch or trench. All are listed as Scottish. Doesn't mention the other two. Sorry.

cheers

david

Subject: RE: What do these words mean?
From: sophocleese
Date: 09 Jan 00 - 05:27 PM

Well thanks to you all, that was very quick. Now I'll know what I'm singing when I sing it. I'm still not sure how to pronounce sheugh but I may make it rhyme with enough, unless somebody tells me differently.

Subject: RE: What do these words mean?
From: Victoria
Date: 09 Jan 00 - 08:04 PM

My Scots dictionary does not give a pronounciation for sheugh, but lists "sheughly" (adj.) (which is defined as shaky or unsteady) with the pronounciation "shoggly". Whether "Sheugh" and "sheughly" sound the same is anybody's guess, but the spelling is the same. Don't know if that helps or only clouds the issue?

Subject: RE: What do these words mean?
From: Mikal
Date: 09 Jan 00 - 08:14 PM

Ha! I know this one! (I think...)

My family name is Shew, pronounced like SHOE, but is of Scots origin. The older folks pronounce it SHOW.

"Sheugh" was once used as a spelling by a company trying to sell my mother siding. She threw a fit, screaming "any fool would know we are not called "SHOUFF".

As to the accuracy, I cannot tell you. But she was really P*ss$d at being called a ditch!

Mikal

Subject: RE: What do these words mean?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Jan 00 - 08:29 PM

I'd reckon Mickal's right "gh" pronounced as in "through."

And I'm with Mikal's mother on this - one of my first memories as achild is getting very cross with someone who propnounced my name as if it rhymed with "math" instead of "Car" . And I still get irritated with people in shops when I spell my name, and they say "Oh you mean McGrath",pronouncing it wrong. (Yes, I know there are McGraths around who have it the other way round. I've never met one yet. I hope it wouldn't end in a brawl...)

Subject: RE: What do these words mean?
From: Murray on Saltspring
Date: 10 Jan 00 - 12:30 AM

"Sheugh" should be pronounced "shooch", with the CH rendered as in the usual Scots way, like the German in "ach". Try not to make it into a "K" sound.

Subject: RE: What do these words mean?
From: alison
Date: 10 Jan 00 - 12:47 AM

In Ireland we dsecribed ditches as sheuchs, (pronounced shuck.... only the "k" is one of those softer "och" sounds)

slainte

alison

Subject: RE: What do these words mean?
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 10 Jan 00 - 01:22 AM

G'day,

All this begs the question "Pronounced ... by whom? ... When? ... Where?". Pronunciations change with time and area, for instance the spelling that even we English-speakers all find odd of 'plough' (and the Americans ducked out of - and now spell it "plow') is spelled that way because, early in the Middle English period (~ 12th century) the word was pronounced (very roughly) ploo - g -uh, the local version of the Norse plogr.

The spelling got standardised ... pronunciations never do.

Regards,

Bob Bolton

Subject: RE: What do these words mean?
From: Abby Sale
Date: 10 Jan 00 - 08:55 AM

Murray,

Yes but it's the soft gutteral, not the hard one. Like "Gaughan." or the Hebrew Chet.

Subject: RE: What do these words mean?
From: Pelrad
Date: 10 Jan 00 - 12:09 PM

McGrath;

You'd best not visit Newport, RI, in the US. We have McGraths (who rhyme their name with "math") all over the place. ;-)

Subject: RE: What do these words mean?
From: Margo
Date: 10 Jan 00 - 12:25 PM

In the Mudcat links is listed (I think) a site called "World Wide Words". The guy there has helped me on occasion, and it's handy to remember his site. I think I'll go check the links to make sure it's there.... if not, I'll be right back. Margo

Subject: RE: What do these words mean?
From: Margo
Date: 10 Jan 00 - 12:31 PM

Here's the address: http://www.clever.net/quinion/words/index.htm but if you just want a link click here. Margo

Subject: RE: What do these words mean?
From: sophocleese
Date: 10 Jan 00 - 02:44 PM

Thanks for all the input. I'm having computer problems as my server is being a crashing bore but I've bookmarked that word link. Should come in useful.

Subject: RE: What do these words mean?
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 10 Jan 00 - 09:02 PM

Thanks for the link, Margo.

Now can someone help me with an online link to the Scottish words used in many of Robert Burns' songs? I used to have a link to The Vocabulary of Robert Burns but it quit working about six months ago. I've tried to find a new address for it, but have not succeeded. It really was nice because it told what ilka, kie and all those foreign words mean. ;-)

Mary

Subject: RE: What do these words mean?
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 11 Jan 00 - 03:34 AM

Alison is correct in the Irish pronunciation. Up in the north we use it in the expression: It's so warm that the sweat's runnin' down the sheugh o' me arse.

Subject: RE: What do these words mean?
From: Margo
Date: 11 Jan 00 - 04:18 PM

Mary, try http://www.worldwideschool.org/library/books/lit/poetry/PoemsandSongsofRobertBurns/chap29.html or if you just want a link, click here. There are a lot of Burns sites. If you just put his name in a search engine, you'll come up with a lot... Margo

Subject: RE: What do these words mean?
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 11 Jan 00 - 04:33 PM

Oh wow...that's a great site! Thanks!

Mary

Subject: RE: What do these words mean?
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Jan 00 - 05:12 PM

"The wind was rough
And cold and blough
She kept her hands
Inside her mough"

Subject: RE: What do these words mean?
From: Alan of Australia
Date: 12 Jan 00 - 05:05 AM

Hey Seamus,
You'll never convince an Aussie that Northern Ireland ever gets that warm.

Cheers,
Alan

Subject: RE: What do these words mean?
From: alison
Date: 12 Jan 00 - 10:03 AM

Ignore him Seamus...... there hasn't been much sun in Oz this summer at all yet...... it's just like home...(only with mosquitoes.. and I just caught a big huntsman spider in my living room... never happened in Belfast!!)

thanks for reminding me of that phrase from home..... hahaha

slainte

alison

Subject: RE: What do these words mean?
From: GUEST,Book Marshall
Date: 03 Feb 05 - 09:03 AM

Greetings Murray!

I read your interpretation of an Old Blind Dogs song on Mudcat. I am a folk singer in Rochester, in New York State (its up near Canada) - Would so much appreciate it if you could enlighten me about the OBD song " Battle of Waterloo. I would like to tell the audience what or where "Kirrie" is. Also, am I right in assuming that " Boney " was a nickname for Napoleon?   Please excuse me if I did not use this link correctly
Best wishes for peace and good music. We love Old Blind Dogs here in Rochester.

Book Marshall

[e-mail]

Subject: RE: What do these words mean?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 03 Feb 05 - 09:41 AM

McGrath of Harlow:

You rhyme your name with "car"?   I had never heard that before; only rhyming with "raw" or "math".

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: What do these words mean?
From: pavane
Date: 03 Feb 05 - 10:17 AM

Book Marshall: Boney was indeed Napoleon.

Subject: RE: What do these words mean?
From: Drumshanty
Date: 03 Feb 05 - 10:39 AM

Kirriemuir

There's a fine traditional music festival there every September.

Subject: RE: What do these words mean?
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Feb 05 - 10:47 AM

She liked it rough
her bod was bough
her boyfriend dived
into her mough

he showed his stough
her voice was grough
when finally
she cried "enough!"

Subject: RE: What do these words mean?
From: Noreen
Date: 03 Feb 05 - 11:44 AM

...the sandstone town of KIRRIEMUIR, known locally as "Kirrie"...

Book Marshall, see this thread also: Lyr Req: Battle of Waterloo (click)

Subject: RE: What do these words mean?
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 03 Feb 05 - 11:56 AM

Uncle Dave O said: You rhyme your name with "car"?   I had never heard that before; only rhyming with "raw" or "math".

Aha! A problem that often occurs when folks from one bit of the English speaking world use rhyme to decribe how a words sound.

Few English dialects use the 'r' as it occurs in N.America (West Country being a notable exception). You should hear it pronounced in Northumberland!

Subject: RE: What do these words mean?
From: GUEST,Carlisle101
Date: 03 Feb 05 - 12:50 PM

In Cumbria they tend to "FF" the 'gh', As a Scot to who 'gh' is either 'uh' or 'yu' its made me look a right fool asking directions to Burgh-by-sands or Raughton Head. And the Eastern Cumbrian dialect aint that much different from Norghthumbrghian! (soz but that's the closest I can get to phoneticising the way they say it!?!)

Subject: RE: What do these words mean?
From: GUEST,Carlisle101
Date: 03 Feb 05 - 12:53 PM

PS Burgh being "Bruf" and Raughton being "Rafton"