Song titles and dialect

Subject: Song titles and dialect
From: Conrad Bladey (Peasant- Inactive)
Date: 05 Mar 00 - 11:50 AM

IMHO It is important to retain the dialect spellings of tune titles where possible. The reason being is that these are the titles given in the older sources and one should maintain them for cross referencing purposes. Granted, titles do change and varry but where possible give the dialect spelling. You can always include a translation into contemporary Kings English in () if you wish.

Conrad

Subject: RE: BS: Song titles and dialect
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 05 Mar 00 - 12:06 PM

Conrad- I have verra mix'd feelin's on this--Dialect should definitely be preserved. BUT use of dialect in the DT makes songs almost impossible to find. And access, after all, is a great part of what we're all about.

Anybody else have thoughts on this?

Subject: RE: BS: Song titles and dialect
From: sophocleese
Date: 05 Mar 00 - 12:21 PM

Tricky question. Certainly dialect spellings should be prreserved. Can you put the dialect title in the history blurb about the song and then warn people searching that you use modern American spellings and they should use those?

Subject: RE: BS: Song titles and dialect
From: Amos
Date: 05 Mar 00 - 12:29 PM

For database purposes it needs to be settled one way or the other as a standard.

I would suggest as far as titles go in the DT that it be dual entry in the title entry, for example:

Ole Dibble Moon (Old Devil Moon)

or

Auprés de ma Blonder (Next to My Blonde)

That way both forms are accessible to key on in searching.

Subject: RE: BS: Song titles and dialect
From: GUEST,thomas the rhymer
Date: 05 Mar 00 - 12:41 PM

when I am looking for songs in the 'base... Its often found looking all over the place... in this age of much info were all in the chase... So why don't we put 'em all there... just in case?

...and link them!

Subject: RE: BS: Song titles and dialect
From: Sandy Paton
Date: 05 Mar 00 - 02:26 PM

For want of a title, the search was lost;
For want of a word, the title was lost;
For want of a letter, the word was lost.
For want of 'em all, the song was lost.

Y'know, these machines may not be as smart as we'd like 'em to be.

Sandy

Subject: RE: BS: Song titles and dialect
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 05 Mar 00 - 04:43 PM

A computer is not smart at all. It's a high-speed idiot!

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Song titles and dialect
From: Troll
Date: 05 Mar 00 - 04:58 PM

Yeah. The damn things do whacha tell 'em to do , not whacha want 'em to do.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Song titles and dialect
From: GUEST,thomas the rhymer
Date: 05 Mar 00 - 05:15 PM

just goes to show ya you'd better sleep careful.... ask what ya need or yer over the barrel.... digitrad clears up some songs with an ear-full.... but brings on nine more, from the tame to the feral.

Subject: RE: BS: Song titles and dialect
From: GUEST,The Beanster
Date: 05 Mar 00 - 05:29 PM

Love your name, Thomas. In Steeleye Span's version of Thomas The Rhymer, I used to always sing along, substituting the words, "Boris The Spider" just for a laugh...LOL

Subject: RE: BS: Song titles and dialect
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 05 Mar 00 - 06:27 PM

THis isn't a trivial problem---particularly when you consider that the typical Mudcatter's spelling is---how do I say?---variable. From sad experience, I can tell you that having a database that will extract "shoes" from "shoon", "sheen" and "shoes" is no small task.
Trying to put all variants in the title simply won't work.

Subject: RE: BS: Song titles and dialect
From: Mbo
Date: 05 Mar 00 - 06:54 PM

Yes! Boris the Spider RULES!!

--Mbo

Subject: RE: BS: Song titles and dialect
From: Bill D
Date: 05 Mar 00 - 07:36 PM

The only real way to do it is to learn to do a clever search...Titles and such are too variable...if you simply use a bit of common sense and know just a few words of the song, you can 'usually' find it. There is simply NO way to make a database that manages to deal with all dialects, spellings title variants and local corruptions...Yep, I know, that means the newbies, the uneducated and the poor spellers have to ask for help sometimes, but there is usually someone willing to give that help....

Subject: RE: BS: Song titles and dialect
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Mar 00 - 08:23 PM

"Next to my blonde" Somehow doesn't carry the same feeling, as "Aupres de ma blonde", does it? But I don't really think you can count French as a dialect of English...

With songs it's not really too difficult to get over it or around it, since the search doesn't just rely on titles. But with tunes it's a bit harder, especially since a lot of the best tunes have a range of different names, and the same names soemtiems have different tunes as well. I can't see a way round it either.

What's really needed, I suppose, is some kind of clever set up, where you'd play a snatch of a tune in, and it'd come up with a list of variants and titles. There are people like that, but so far as I know they haven't managed to computerise them yet.

Subject: RE: BS: Song titles and dialect
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 05 Mar 00 - 10:37 PM

I think Conrad is referring to the "Buzzem"/"Besom" thing from another thread.  The point there was that the lyrics he posted were a NorthEast dialect version, and the three sets already on the DT were spelled according to standard Scots and English conventions.  It's simply a question of being aware that songs may exist in more than one version, and from more than one place; and that the one you know may not be the only -or most "authentic"- one: there is usually no such thing as a "correct" version or spelling, and it is very important to remember that.  Obviously that's easy for me to say -I happen to know that buzzem and besom are the same word.  Perhaps we should all post lyrics only once we are reasonably sure what they mean?

Malcolm

Subject: RE: BS: Song titles and dialect
From: Conrad Bladey (Peasant- Inactive)
Date: 05 Mar 00 - 10:49 PM

I think for search engines the more alt spellings you give the better. I was not aware of the scots version as I work primairly from newcastle texts. One should perhaps always try to include a standard english translation. We should then be able to sadisfy those working from source titles as well as those working from standard english word topics. What the dt might do is have a way of simply adding an alt title that one discovers for an song already included. Something like register new title for tune or lyric. aka Conrad

Subject: RE: BS: Song titles and dialect
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 05 Mar 00 - 11:13 PM

Cross-referencing would certainly be very useful, but realistically it's too much to ask.  It's definitely a good idea to give a translation, though, when posting in dialect, or in a language other than English.  Incidentally, the NE version of "Buzzems"/"Besoms" is only one of several "source titles"; the others are quite as authentic, though spelled differently.

Malcolm

Subject: RE: BS: Song titles and dialect
From: GeorgeH
Date: 06 Mar 00 - 10:16 AM

Yes, Malcolm, you've just summed up what I was about to say; in a perfect world it would all be cross-referenced, but . .

What I would say is that avoiding dialect where possible does have the advantage of making the song readily available to the greatest number of people . . which is fine provided not too much of the character of the piece is lost in the process. And I'd always like to see the dialect original included with the "plain English" translation.

G.

Subject: RE: BS: Song titles and dialect
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 06 Mar 00 - 08:43 PM

Dialect is an important part of song, prose and poetry writing. A lot of Shakespeares' stuff sounds a lot more natural, funnier and even rhymes when you say it in his own local Warwickshire accent. Just give it a try, give it your best with 'Ow Roemeaow, Roemeaow, whur for art dhow, Roemeaow...' well it makes me giggle!

LTS