BS: Anyone called Caesar, watch out!!

Subject: Anyone called Caesar, watch out!!
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 14 Mar 00 - 07:18 PM

Infamy, infamy, they've all got it infamy....

Beware,for today is the Ides of March, if your best friend is called Brutus, I'd keep my eye on him......

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone called Caesar, watch out!!
From: Mbo
Date: 14 Mar 00 - 07:30 PM

What a brute he was to kill you! HA HA!! All us naughty knaves better be on our best behaviour...and tomorrow's radio night too...

--Mbo

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone called Caesar, watch out!!
From: Barky
Date: 14 Mar 00 - 08:11 PM

*Scary music plays loudly over a close up of Tim Curry's face w/makeup.* AAAAH!!!!!!
If you don't know who Tim Curry is, I'm ashamed of you. Go see the Rocky Horror Picture Show, and look at Dr. Frank N. Furter. That's our loveable Tim. *BG*

~Barky

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone called Caesar, watch out!!
From: pastorpest
Date: 14 Mar 00 - 08:16 PM

Julius Caesar was a big time mass murderer. He went through Gaul, present day France, wiping out entire tribes of Celts. I wonder how many bards, songs, and poems he wiped out in the process just to enhance his own status back in Rome? Then he used his status to get control of government wiping out what little representative government was left in Rome. That stuff about living and dying by the sword applies to him? Why do we make heros out of dictators and generals?

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone called Caesar, watch out!!
From: Mbo
Date: 14 Mar 00 - 08:16 PM

Barky, for a minute there, I though you were talking about when he played the supernatural clown Pennywise in "IT". Now THAT was scary!!! They float, they all float, and you'll...float...TOOOO! :0

--Mbo

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone called Caesar, watch out!!
From: Mbo
Date: 14 Mar 00 - 08:24 PM

I KNOW! I'll never forgive him what he did to Vercengetorix! See here for more upon the subject!

--Mbo

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone called Caesar, watch out!!
From: Amos
Date: 14 Mar 00 - 08:27 PM

Big Jule is sending telepathic mind-meld messages to 'Spaw, for relay to Mbo, even as we speak, saying "Tough titties, man! The context was different then!"

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone called Caesar, watch out!!
From: Dave Swan
Date: 14 Mar 00 - 08:33 PM

Except in the southwest, where the ides of Texas are upon you.....

E.S.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone called Caesar, watch out!!
From: Mbo
Date: 14 Mar 00 - 08:37 PM

What? I'm as lost as the goat that belonged to that guy with the portable Budweiser Vacuum.

--Mbo

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone called Caesar, watch out!!
From: Biskit
Date: 14 Mar 00 - 08:54 PM

Whew! Julias, I thought you were referin' to Calligula, I was all ready with the chastity belt!

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone called Caesar, watch out!!
From: Sorcha
Date: 14 Mar 00 - 09:04 PM

Thank the Gods he never made it to Ireland. Them Romans would eat anything!

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone called Caesar, watch out!!
From: Caitrin
Date: 14 Mar 00 - 09:24 PM

Unfortunately for Caesar, alea jacta est. By this point, you've already ignored the soothsayer a little bit too long.
And whether you like Caesar or not, you have to admit he was a great general.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone called Caesar, watch out!!
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Mar 00 - 10:47 PM

In fact the Romans did make it to Ireland. There are the remnants of a Roman camp outside of Dublin.
They didn't stay long though, descerning, with amazing accuracy, that the Irish were not a people to be conqured.

They took the ferry back to Holyhead, renamed the country Hibernia - The land that sleeps - , and got on with the conquest of England instead; a much more malleable population altogether.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone called Caesar, watch out!!
From: paddymac
Date: 14 Mar 00 - 11:49 PM

The Ides of March, I've always thought, were the 15th, not the 14th. Not a big deal in the grand scheme of things, however. As "Guest" noted, archeologists did find the remnants of a Roman camp in the Dublin area a few years ago. As I recall, it was thought to be a temporary encampment, probably of a scouting expedition. Not meaning to step on any toes or offend anyone's sensibilities, but there is an argument that Ireland might have been better off had it been conquered by the Roman army instead of the Roman church. Yes, I know there's no answer to the question, but it's a grand topic for chat with as few pints.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone called Caesar, watch out!!
From: MarkS
Date: 15 Mar 00 - 12:02 AM

Caesar is really a historical fiction. The myth came about when a certain Julius, a member of the praetorian guard, was detailed to arrest Antonia, the wife of Gaius Illigitimatus, for inciting a riot during a demonstration protesting an new law banning coitus interruptus. Julius was pointed out by his centurian and directed, "Julius, sieze her." The rest, as they say, is history.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone called Caesar, watch out!!
From: MMario
Date: 15 Mar 00 - 12:04 AM

and never eat the salad on days divisable by 3, 5, and 15

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone called Caesar, watch out!!
From: ddw
Date: 15 Mar 00 - 12:22 AM

The proof that Caesar wasn't such a great general is in the fact that when he went thru France wiping out whole tribes he didn't get them all.

David (running for the bunker)

BTW, Pastorpest, wasn't that a trick similar to the one the Christians pulled on the people of Islam during the Crusades?

David (wearing riot gear to the next WFS event)

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone called Caesar, watch out!!
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 15 Mar 00 - 12:27 PM

Paddymac, When I posted this at 00.19 today, it WAS 15th, it's only this US based date thingy that makes it different.

It lived up to its doomladen reputation, I've lost a cat, sent three IRS inspectors round the bend with incessant requests for the same files, broken the computer at work and now I've lost my glasses.....

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone called Caesar, watch out!!
From: Barky
Date: 15 Mar 00 - 07:35 PM

Where are you located, Squeak?

~Barky

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone called Caesar, watch out!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Mar 00 - 08:29 PM

All threads lead to Ireland - it seems a rule of the Mudcat Cafe.

I reckon those Dublin Romans were a bunch of deserters on the run. Where better to make for?

Can't see how being occupied by the Romans did much for the Britons when they had to look after themselves when they pulled out. In spite of King Arthur, the Anglo-Sasxons wiped them out or pushed them out of the way, into Wales and Cornwall.

Whereas in Ireland any Saxons who made it over just turned Irish, like the Vikings did, and the Normans did, and everyone else who's ever invaded. (Yes, I know there's a few differences and disputes, but could anyone ever mistake say Ian Paisley for anything other than an Irishman, like it or not.)

I can't see a Roman occupation of Ireland as working for long - the supply and control problems would have been too much, they'd never have kept control. I can envisage a Romano-Irish breakaway Empire surviving the fall of Rome, and providing an oasis of civilisation on the West of Europe - which was more or less what happened anyway, without the Romans.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone called Caesar, watch out!!
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Mar 00 - 09:01 PM

Anybody play Caesar 3?

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone called Caesar, watch out!!
From: Penny S.
Date: 16 Mar 00 - 12:52 PM

Plenty of evidence that the Celts pushed out of the way were the ones with mobile wealth, and that many stayed, the A/S incursion being less violent than might be supposed (making allowances for the time, and comparing like with like. For instance, the A/S landowning class took over the old estates with the same boundaries, lock, stock and barrel. Often all they did was to move the central dwelling site a little away from the old R/B villa, and use that as a quarry. And the English, as early as records can show, were not the same as the Germanni who trashed - how many legions was it, Varus? There was modification going on, and a lot of oddly Celtic names among the invading groups. OK, Aelle wiped out the people sheltering in Pevensey, but recorded atrocities are few - they didn't have the attitude of modern types to hiding what they did.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone called Caesar, watch out!!
From: GUEST,Biggus Dickus
Date: 17 Mar 00 - 12:53 AM

Ave!

It does have to be said, in all truthfulness, that Aelle went through Pevensey quicker than a skitter through a goat's arse

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone called Caesar, watch out!!
From: GUEST,Bobby Bob, Ellan Vannin
Date: 17 Mar 00 - 07:39 PM

Just as a note, 'Caesar' has been quite popular as a name in the Isle of Man for a good many years. There was a merchant in the Island called Caesar Bacon, and I think the name was associated with that family. One of the people who passed on the Manx language to interested people was Caesar Cashin of Peel.

There may, perhaps, now be only one Caesar in the Island, and that's young Caesar Joughin of Peel, who will be about four years of age at the moment.

Shoh slaynt,

Bobby Bob.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone called Caesar, watch out!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Mar 00 - 10:49 PM

"Recorded atrocities are few - they didn't have the attitude of modern types to hiding what they did"

Or maybe they aren't recorded because they were hidden, or because noone survived who was in a position to pass on the story. I'd like to think you are right Penny. But I don't think people change all that much. Ethnic cleansing isn't a new thing, if it's a new term.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone called Caesar, watch out!!
From: MarkS
Date: 17 Mar 00 - 11:05 PM

Recorded atrocities were few because making a permanent recording back then involved a hammer, a chisel, and a very large block of stone. And when newspapers have to be written out one at a time, you tend to get very few newspapers!

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone called Caesar, watch out!!
From: Penny S.
Date: 18 Mar 00 - 04:32 AM

What I was getting at was that the English recorded, later, from oral tradition, such things as Pevensey, without moral problems, that the Celts recorded such things as the Hengist treaty violation at Amesbury. There are written records, such as charters, in Wales, from very early, so chisels were unnecessary. Given that such stories are recorded, it seems likely that others would have been, too. There may not be complete records, but what there are may be a higher proportion of what happened than some traditions like to claim. I did try to indicate that I would compare the invaders with the current leaders of the Balkans rather than a group of VSO volunteers, as I agree that ethnic cleansing has a long history - try the Pentateuch.

However, I have studied place names, and the tutors pointed out the way that case endings were transferred from British to English forms, as well as the names of minor landscape features (in Kent, far from the language survival area), which not something which could be expected where the native population is wiped out. In that field there is a surprising amount of continuity.

Archaeologically, burials show physiologies from both populations (I was surprised to find out that Celtic feet have different bone structures from Germanic, for example). There are such oddities as the burial with the Darenth bowl, of a man with no weapon grave goods, but a glass bowl marked with a Chi-Rho.

There is also the DNA evidence linking current populations with the pre-Celtic Mesolithic peoples.

I wouldn't say that the settlement was peaceful, or atrocity free, but it is more likely to have been an upperclass imposition on the peasants who had no way to move with economic security while the nobs, who could write the histories got out. Hence the persistence of ancient estates. By comparison, it seems that the Vikings made a point of acquiring legal title to the estates which they took over by other means, again using the same boundaries.

And I knew that this discussion would occur. I actually went for the clear entries button, but missed.

Penny