High Germany, who wrote it?

Subject: High Germany, who wrote it?
From: Magpie
Date: 22 Jun 00 - 06:54 PM

Please someone, can you tell me who wrote High Germany? I've looked in the database, but it doesn't say. I have also searched for previous threads on the song without any luck. And if you have some information on the circumstances around that war, please?

Regards Magpie

Subject: RE: High Germany, who wrote it?
From: Irish sergeant
Date: 22 Jun 00 - 08:15 PM

Magpie: the Dubliners recorded it some years ago. As i remember, it is listed as "Traditional" as far as writing credits. It is also listed in Volume Two of Jerry Silverman's Folk Song Encyclopedia and carries no credits there either. Given the tenor of the song, the lyrics and a fairly good understanding of European history, I would guess that it dates from the Napoleonic wars Ca. 1795-1815. Hopefully this helps and is correct. If it isn't, any Mudcatters who would know? Neil

Subject: RE: High Germany, who wrote it?
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 22 Jun 00 - 08:18 PM

The two earliest copies, among several in the Bodley Ballads collection on the web, were printed by Wright of Birmingham (1831-37) and Catnach of London (d 1841). Neither bears an authors name or intitials, and its unlikely this will ever be determined.

Subject: RE: High Germany, who wrote it?
From: WyoWoman
Date: 22 Jun 00 - 08:35 PM

Is this the one that starts, "Oh woe be to the orders that took my love from me..."?

ww

Subject: RE: High Germany, who wrote it?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 22 Jun 00 - 09:00 PM

No; that's a different one, which is on the DT as The Wars of Germany.  A version of High Germany is there, too, but whoever posted it has begun the first line with "Oh Colleen, love" instead of the usual "Oh Polly, love", apparantly under the misapprehension that it was an Irish song.  (sigh)

Malcolm

Subject: RE: High Germany, who wrote it?
From: GUEST,Jim I
Date: 22 Jun 00 - 09:19 PM

It sounds to me more like a song of the Marlburlian Wars i.e. 1670's to the very early 1700's, mostly fought in 'High Germany'

Subject: RE: High Germany, who wrote it?
From: Magpie
Date: 23 Jun 00 - 02:13 AM

Thank you ever so much! I knew the Mudcat would help me out.

If you have more info, please feel free to share it with me, OK?

Have a nice day / weekend / summer (underline your choice)

Love, Magpie

Subject: RE: High Germany, who wrote it?
From: IanC
Date: 23 Jun 00 - 04:50 AM

JimI may be right. The contemplator has some useful information, including a date of 1780 for a version of the broadside, which puts it before the Napoleonic wars.

Here.

High Germany

Cheers! IanC

Subject: RE: High Germany, who wrote it?
From: Irish sergeant
Date: 23 Jun 00 - 08:18 PM

Again you have proved the value of asking befoore speaking I stand humbling before you and corrected. Neil

Subject: RE: High Germany, who wrote it?
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 23 Jun 00 - 09:35 PM

I wouldn't jump to that 1780 date too fast. In the source, Sharp's 'One Hundred English Folk Songs', it says circa 1780, and that title looks like one for someone's collection of garlands, not a specific garland. Garlands themselves were usually collections, although some were a single long song (or poem, or tale). Only the info about the H. Such broadside is in JFSS #6, (1906) where Sharp first published the tune and the single verse he had collected in 1904 (the rest in '100 English Folk Songs' is from broadsides). I think the reference is likely to be fouled-up, but without knowing where the garland is to be found, or who the publisher was, there's not much that can be done about it.

I'm not buying that early date without better evidence.

Subject: RE: High Germany, who wrote it?
From: IanC
Date: 02 Oct 01 - 11:51 AM

I've only just managed to do a little more research on this song. The earliest broadside date in the Bodleian Collection is for two copies printed by James Catnach at some time between 1813 and 1838.

Searching the British Library, there are two potential candidates for the "Collection of Garlands" reference in the BL. These are.

Joseph Ritson's "Northern Garlands", subtitled "A Choice Collection of Garlands...", 1793 (an 1810 copy is in the BL).

J. Clarke "A Collection of Choice Songs", Stockport ?1800

The former may not contain the song, but I can look at it when I am next in the BL. The latter is described as "containing, 1. High Germany. 2. Mog the Brunette. 3. Vicar and Moses. 4. The Roving Lass."

In any event, if things check out, we have now got it back to circa 1800 and, if it's in Ritson, to 1793 ... before the Napoleonic Wars.

I'd better check!

Cheers!
Ian

Subject: RE: High Germany, who wrote it?
From: The_one_and_only_Dai
Date: 02 Oct 01 - 11:53 AM

I've always assumed it's about the Seven Years' War, as British soldiers didn't get sent to 'Higher Germanie' at any time in the Napoleonic. Whereas Marlborough laid siege to several cities on the Rhine/Donau.

Subject: RE: High Germany, who wrote it?
From: IanC
Date: 02 Oct 01 - 12:09 PM

Dai

Always seemed likely that it was Marlborough's wars (see above) but BruceO has challenged the earlier date, and I thought it would be worth following it through. I'm aware that the earliest definite date you have for a song is in fact the LATEST POSSIBLE DATE but other people think it's "safer" to stick with this as the earliest it existed. My argument is that you should try to make a best estimate, as sticking to "safe" dates in this way can lead to serious distortions of history which are only occasionally corrected later.

There is an interesting example in an Anglo-Saxon poem called "The Dream of The Rood". The earliest known version of this was in an 11th Century manuscript and all sorts of comments were made by scholars, based on the assumption that it was a late piece. They said it was a debased late Anglo-Saxon poem of no literary or historical merit etc. etc. Then someone deciphered a runic inscription on the 7th/8th Century standing cross at Ruthwell near Dumfries, Scotland and found it was a quite similar version of some of the stanzas of the poem.

;-)
Ian

Subject: RE: High Germany, who wrote it?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Oct 01 - 09:18 PM

Seven years war was well after Marlborough - 1754-63. I've always assumed that this would be the most likely war in this song. Since the King of England was also Elector of Hanover, there was a lot of British involvement in various parts of Germany.

Subject: RE: High Germany, who wrote it?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 02 Oct 01 - 09:56 PM

Here's the entry from the Traditional Ballad Index.
-Joe Offer-

---

High Germany

DESCRIPTION: Young man, conscripted into the war in Germany, bids his sweetheart come with him. She demurs, saying she is not fit for war. He offers to buy her a horse, and also to marry her by and by. She laments the war (and/or her pregnancy)
AUTHOR: unknown
EARLIEST DATE:
KEYWORDS: love war soldier
HISTORICAL REFERENCES:
1714 - Hannoverian succession causes Britain to become involved in German wars
FOUND IN: Britain(England)
REFERENCES (4 citations):
Sharp-100E 56, "High Germany" (1 text, 1 tune)
Silber-FSWB, p. 279, "High Germany" (1 text)
BBI, ZN3231, "O cursed be the wars that ever they began" (?)
DT, WARGRMNY* WARGRMN2*
CROSS-REFERENCES:
cf. "Jack Monroe" [Laws N7]
cf. "William and Nancy I" [Laws N8]
cf. "The Banks of the Nile (Men's Clothing I'll Put On II)" [Laws N9]
cf. "The Manchester Angel"
cf. "Across the Blue Mountain" (floating lyrics)
ALTERNATE TITLES:
The Wars of Germany
Notes: Sharp cites a date of c. 1780 for this song. That the current forms of the song date from the eighteenth century is almost a historical necessity. The Hannoverian Succession (1714) brought a German prince to the British throne, meaning that English troops might be sent to intervene in German affairs. British interest in Germany ended when Napoleon rebuilt the Holy Roman Empire on his own terms, leaving the Hannoverian princes out of the picture. - RBW
File: ShH56

---

Go to the Ballad Search form
Go to the Ballad Index Instructions

The Ballad Index Copyright 2000 by Robert B. Waltz and David G. Engle.

Subject: RE: High Germany, who wrote it?
From: toadfrog
Date: 02 Oct 01 - 11:00 PM

There were also a Scottish and (I believe) an English regiment with Gustavus Adolphus, so some of the songs could be even older. The idea of a woman putting on men's clothing to follow her lover is a whole lot more plausible in mid-Seventeenth Century context, where war was extremely irregular and chaotic, than with more regular armies like Marlborough's. So far as I am aware, few if any British soldiers actually fought on the Continent in the Seven Years' War; they used Hessians and Hanoverians.

Subject: RE: High Germany, who wrote it?
From: The_one_and_only_Dai
Date: 03 Oct 01 - 03:56 AM

Oops, I think I meant the War of the Spanish Succession. I'm not big on C18th history (although I am quite big around the waist). Or maybe I did mean the SYW. But anyway, there wasn't any British involvement in central Europe in the Napoleonic Wars. I think.

Subject: RE: High Germany, who wrote it?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Oct 01 - 05:57 AM

All those wars sometimes get lumped together as the Second Hundred Years War.

Subject: RE: High Germany, who wrote it?
From: The_one_and_only_Dai
Date: 03 Oct 01 - 06:01 AM

That'll be the one that started in 1705 and ended in 1945, then...

Subject: RE: High Germany, who wrote it?
From: toadfrog
Date: 03 Oct 01 - 07:01 PM

Joe: The Traditional Balad Index is a bit off. The Hannoverian princes left the picture after 1866, when Prussia annexed Hannover. It lost its direct union with England in or about 1830, when the King's brother, Ernst August, was sent off to rule Hannover. The London Times hailed his departure, describing Ernst August as "a man guilty of every crime but suicide." On arrival, he promptly abolished red tape, red military uniforms, and the Hannoverian constitution.

But for the life of me, I cannot think of a single war between 1714 and 1939 that would have caused English or Scottish soldiers to fight in Germany. It was much easier to use German proxy soldiers. So perhaps the date of the song might not correspond to the date of the events it describes.

Subject: RE: High Germany, who wrote it?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Oct 01 - 07:16 PM

No, that'd be the Third Hundred Years War, dai, which is just entering another phase. (Different enemies, but each episode grows out of the ones before.)

The First and Second Hundred Years War were both English versus French. (With various other people involved, with Perfidious Albion changing sides occasionally - but with the constant element being English versus French.)

Subject: RE: High Germany, who wrote it?
From:
Date: 01 Jul 02 - 11:02 AM

Hi Does anyone have the words of the second version of high Germany. I think it's also known as "The True Lovers"

Subject: Different version of High Germany
From:
Date: 01 Jul 02 - 11:04 AM

Hi Does anyone have the words of the second version of high Germany. I think it's also known as "The True Lovers"

Subject: RE: High Germany, who wrote it?
From: Noreen
Date: 01 Jul 02 - 01:03 PM

Bit more information, please- how does your version start?

Subject: RE: High Germany, who wrote it?
From:
Date: 01 Jul 02 - 05:31 PM

Noreen I don't know how the start of it goes but there's something like this in it "I was just seven when Margaret was evelen"

Subject: RE: High Germany, who wrote it?
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 01 Jul 02 - 06:59 PM

Well, any English or Scottish regiments with Gustavus Adolphus in the 30 Years War (1618-1648) would probably have been mercenaries. I think the verse about pressing men out of England to fight in Higher Germany is very iffy.....

Kitty

Subject: Lyr Add: MALBROUCK S'EN VA-T-EN GUERRE
From: Haruo
Date: 01 Jul 02 - 10:48 PM

Speaking of the Marlburlian wars, I find it odd that "Malbrouck s'en va-t-en guerre" is not in the DT (nor even apparently among the unharvested lyrics as far as my lame and limited search powers show). Back in 1998 Frank Phillips said he would post a version the next day, but I don't see it or any other.

ingeb.org has numerous stanzas in French (18) and German (15), but doesn't use the most common spelling (which means if you Google search for "Malbrouck" it won't come up. I'll just post the first verse at the moment, and allow the Folk Process to do its work.

MALBROUCK S'EN VA-T-EN GUERRE

Marlbrough s'en va-t-en guerre,
Mironton, mironton, mirontaine,
Marlbrough s'en va-t-en guerre,
Ne sait quand reviendra.
Ne sait quand reviendra,
Ne sait quand reviendra.
Marlbrough s'en va-t-en guerre,
Mironton, mironton, mirontaine,
Marlbrough s'en va-t-en guerre,
Ne sait quand reviendra.

I'm pretty sure a short version of it in English and French is in one of the Fireside Books of Ms. Boni's (either Folk Songs or ¡American! Songs). The tune is one of those little-kiddie-ditty workhorses like "the old grey mare" or the "Ah! vous dirai-je maman" that we've been going over lately in the twinkle twinkle threads. English-speaking children are perhaps most likely to learn it first as "The bear went over the mountain".

According to babelfish, the first stanza (given above) means:

Malbrouck from goes away hold war,
Mironton, mironton, mirontaine,
Malbrouck from goes away hold war, Mironton, mironton, mirontaine, Marlbrough from goes away hold war, Does not know when will return.

Typically dense Gallic prose, hein? (Actually I was hoping it would provide some light on the meaning of "mironton, mironton, mirontaine", but I guess they are slated to remain nonsense syllables.)

Liland

Subject: RE: High Germany, who wrote it?
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 01 Jul 02 - 11:27 PM

G'day Liland,

I'm interested to see your posting of Marlbrough s'en va-t-en guerre. I published, in Mulga Wire, ... some 20 + years ago ... an article by an Australian folklorist (John Meredith) suggesting that Marlbrough ... was the first European folk song known to have been sung in Australia - and that it was, in part (ie; the tune, at least) the first to have been passed on the the aboriginal inhabitants!

In 1788, the "First Fleet" - the 11 English ships carrying the first settlers, soldiers and convicts - had first anchored in Botany Bay ... quickly abandoned in favour of Port Jackson/Sydney Cove. While they were still in Botany Bay, the French expeditionary fleet of La Perouse sailed into Botany Bay. The officers socialised with the French ... including some after dinner singing - and Marlbrough s'en va-t-en guerre turned out to be the only song well-known to both nationalities.

It was recorded by several of the officers, that the natives of Botany Bay were heard to singing the tune of Marlbrough ... as they rowed their canoes about Botany Bay in the ensuing weeks. (I will dig out my archive copy and see if there is anything else relevant to justify posting the text (and the presumed tune).

Regards,

Bob Bolton

Subject: RE: High Germany, who wrote it?
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 02 Jul 02 - 03:07 AM

Liland - Babelfish translation shows well why it is better to rely on native speakers and translators. The first stanza goes:
Marlbrough went out to war,
Don't know, when he'll return.
The "Mironton ..." is the usual onomatopoetic filling stuff like "folderol" or "tralala".
I remember to have sung the song in the German version (nearly half a century ago) with the Boy Scouts. The German version, like the original French one, is about Marlbrough's burial; the German version seemed shorter to me having read ingeb.org (where is my scout song book?)
Note that at ingeb.org not the German version is given, but an artful poem of the 19. century about the battle of Höchstädt. It can be sung to the Marlbrough tune but has nothing to do with the folk song.

Wilfried

Subject: RE: High Germany, who wrote it?
From: rich-joy
Date: 02 Jul 02 - 04:56 AM

Somewhere in the dim, distant past, I read that "Marlbrouk s'en va t'en guerre" ("We Won't Go Home Till Morning") was from where our Birthday favourite "For He's a Jolly Good Fellow" was derived ... is this currently thought to be the case???

Cheers! R-J

Subject: RE: High Germany, who wrote it?
From: Jon Bartlett
Date: 02 Jul 02 - 05:17 AM

Bob Bolton, the astonishing thing is that there is contemporaneous evidence for the same song functioning in the same way on contact with First Nations people on the NW coast of America. The reference is I think in one of the Spanish texts describing the voyage of the SUTIL. Give me a day or so to hunt this down. (I remember spotting the Australian reference in "The Fatal Shore", but didn't check Hughes' footnote on his source). Incidentally, I don't think the song has anything to do with Marlborough: unless there's a Dutch etymology behind it.

Subject: RE: High Germany, who wrote it?
From: Haruo
Date: 02 Jul 02 - 01:00 PM

Nothing to do with Marlborough? I'm eagerly waiting to learn how so. (And how a Dutch etymology would affect the matter.) I'll notify my Chinook Jargon and Salishanist chums about this thread, maybe somebody in that line will have some input on the NW Coast contact thing.

rich-joy, are you suggesting that the "he" in "For he's a jolly good fellow" was originally Marlborough? Or do you just mean it's basically the same tune, which is, I think, clear. (Unless Jon G. Bartlett wants to suggest that the tunes are unrelated, unless possibly one of them has been through a shape-note recension...) ;-)

Liland

Subject: RE: High Germany, who wrote it?
From: Haruo
Date: 02 Jul 02 - 01:37 PM

I've created a new thread for Malbrouck lyrics so this one can maybe drift back towards Germany.

Liland

Subject: RE: High Germany, who wrote it?
From: Martin Graebe
Date: 02 Jul 02 - 03:27 PM

Roy Palmer in 'The Rambling Soldire' goes for the Seven Years War. But that is for the 'other' broadside version starting 'Abroad as I was travelling, I was travelling all alone' which is aka 'The True Lovers or the Kings/Queen's Command'. Baring-Gould in 'A Garland of Country Song' also gives this, though his note starts, unpromisingly: 'This song, in hopelessly bad metre and of no poetic merit .... etc', though he does describe the tune as peculiarly fine. He collected it from Will Aggett of Chagford in October 1890.

He also mentions, more crucially to this thread, the 'real' High Germany ie 'O Polly love! O Polly, love! the rout it is begun' which he didn't collect but which he had a broadside for (Such #329) and which he also discovered in 'A Collection of Choice Garlands' publ c1780.

Martin

Subject: RE: High Germany, who wrote it?
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 02 Jul 02 - 07:42 PM

With all this thread creep Amanda(?) is still waiting for an answer: The song you quote is not an old one but about World War I, written fairly recently by Pete St John, and known variously as 'When Margaret Was Eleven' (thus on Pete's website) or 'Tunes of Glory'. For some more info see My Songbook.

Subject: RE: High Germany, who wrote it?
From: GUEST,amanda
Date: 03 Jul 02 - 04:16 AM

Susanne Thanks a million. That's the one I was looking for. Thanks again Amanda

Subject: RE: High Germany, who wrote it?
From: rich-joy
Date: 03 Jul 02 - 08:23 AM

Liland : I wasn't suggesting either : I was just curious : I don't actually know the French song in question, or its tune (shock! horror!) : but I am interested in the derivation of "For He's A Jolly Good Fellow" I guess ...

Cheers! R-J

Subject: RE: High Germany, who wrote it?
From: Q
Date: 24 Oct 04 - 07:59 PM

Refresh

Subject: RE: High Germany, who wrote it?
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jul 09 - 09:04 AM

Between 1759 and 1761 British troops were involved in several battles in 'High Germany'including the battles of Minden,Emsdorf,Warburg,Kloster Kamp,Vellinghausen,Wilhelmstahl, all part of the Seven Years War (F&I War was the US leg of the same conflict).
Hannah Snell was a famous cross dresser serving with the Marines mid century.
I'll go with it being about the 7yw

Subject: RE: High Germany, who wrote it?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 30 Jul 09 - 06:24 AM

Luke Kelly`s fine rendition of this song,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3tUeMviMqk

Subject: RE: High Germany, who wrote it?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 30 Jul 09 - 06:28 AM

Try this,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3tUeMviMqk