concertinas

Subject: concertinas
From: Bagpuss
Date: 27 Jun 00 - 07:06 AM

Can anyone help me? I am thinking of buying an English concertina, but I'm a bit skint and don't want to waste too much money on something I might be no good at (I have only played one once, at an absolute beginners workout, with Folkworks). I have seen that Hobgoblin sell a miniature 18 key one for £185 and wondered whether it is worth buying. What is its range, and is it fully chromatic etc? Would I be able to play a decent range of tunes on it, as well as chords to accompany me singing?

Thanks, Bagpuss

Subject: RE: concertinas
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Jun 00 - 07:22 AM

This is obvious, but you do say you're an absolute beginner, so make sure it's an English system Concertina you want and not an Anglo system. Hobgoblin are very helpful on this kind of thing, and will answer any questions, even if you don't buy at this stage. Here is their website, which you probably have already.

I'd advise getting along to the music stalls at a folk festival and have a good look around. Good second hand insruments can be a bargain. I've just bought a secondhand 30 button Anglo Hohner for £150, which is a pretty good price. (From Thrift Music, Walton on the Naze). English are a bit more expensive. (And concertinas can go up to incredibly high prices.)

Subject: RE: concertinas
From: Bagpuss
Date: 27 Jun 00 - 07:34 AM

Thanks, yes, I definitely want an english system one, as I have had a try of one before, and I have more opportunity to go to beginners groups for this instrument (Alistair Anderson does a lot with Folkworks). I've looked at Hobgoblins second hand list, and most of them are more expensive than the new ones.

Bagpuss

Subject: RE: concertinas
From: GUEST,KingBrilliant
Date: 27 Jun 00 - 07:54 AM

Hey Bagpuss, I'm in the same position. We went to the English Concertina workshops at Chippenham this year, and now we need three of them!!!! However, we were advised that it is best to buy as expensive as you can (and this was not someone trying to sell one). The points are: 1. It's easier to play a better instrument 2. If you spend over £700 on an old lachenal or Wheatstone or similar then it is an investment. They gain value rather than lose. 3. If you buy a £500 newer instrument then you can be wasting your money as they are hard to sell on when you want to go for something better - The guys running the workshop said that they get given such instruments for use for tuition, as the owners can't find a buyer.

We came to the conclusion that we need to save up for one really good instrument, and perhaps also buy an old 'tutor' model (about £400 to £500). Then maybe get a third one later on.

Its a lot of money, but having tried out a lot of instruments on the stalls at the festival I reckon the advice we were given was right. The £700+ older models were vastly superior to the newer models. I think its worth stretching the finances to get something you'll want to stick with, rather than something that costs only a few hundred less but is grown out of within the year & loses value dramatically. I'm just waiting for a windfall now.....

Most places would do some sort of finance deal to make it more easily affordable - and if you get something that holds or increases its value then you lose nothing if it turns out that you don't stick with the instrument.

Kris

Subject: RE: concertinas
From: Kohoutek
Date: 27 Jun 00 - 07:58 AM

Bagpuss,

I'd concur with McGrath. Give Hobgoblin a ring. They've always offered me extensive, informative and unbiased advice - they've never tried to push me into buying something just because they it.

McGrath,

Was your buy a lucky one off? Or do Thrift Music have comparable stuff?

K.

Subject: RE: concertinas
From: Kohoutek
Date: 27 Jun 00 - 07:59 AM

'they it' = 'they sell it' Sorry.

K.

Subject: RE: concertinas
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Jun 00 - 12:55 PM

I think I was lucky when I bought it at a stall at the Moreton Rose Queen Day in Essex the weekend before last. But they had some other stuff that seemed pretty good value too, including an English (which I can't judge, because I can't get my head round the English system) which aren't on their website - which is here

Incidentally, I said they were at Walton-on-the Naze - in fact they are at Frinton, a few miles up the road.Which is a bit strange, since that is about the only town in England that hasn't got any pubs. No pubs, and a good folk shop...

Subject: RE: concertinas
From: phil h
Date: 27 Jun 00 - 06:24 PM

If you're buying an old concertina & you intend to play with other instruments make sure it's in concert pitch! It can cost £ hundreds to have every reed retuned/replaced if it's in old pitch. Also try here " http://www.harbour.demon.co.uk/concerti.htm " for info & links. Phil

Subject: RE: concertinas
From: GUEST,murango_kid
Date: 28 Jun 00 - 04:54 AM

THIS MAY HELP YOU A BIT INSTEAD OF WASTING £185 ON IT YOU COULD EASILY GET ONE CHEAPER AND PROBABLY A LOT BIGGER (IF YOU WANTED) BY LOOKING IN THE SCOT-ADDS YOU'LL FIND LOTS OF SECOND HAND ONES FOR ABOUT £60 MAYBE LESS AND THEY ARE IN REALY GOOD CONDITION IF YOU DON'T FIND WHAT YOU'RE LOOKING FOR YOU MIGHT FIND SOMETHING ELSE THAT MAY INTEREST YOU AS SCOT-ADDS HAS 1000'S OF NEW ITEMS FOR SALE EVERY THURSDAY AND SUNDAY GOOD LUCK

Subject: RE: concertinas
From: GUEST,Baz
Date: 28 Jun 00 - 05:52 PM

Bagpuss
I can only re-inforce the Hobgoblin advice.
We bought a Stagi ( maker of Gremlin and I think Hohner models) about 18 months ago. We have recently moved up to a Wheatstone (over £1,000 but out of this world!) and Hobgoblin are now selling our old one at a price not far from the original cost. If you are sure, go for the best you can. If not get what you can afford, learn to play it and move up when you can.
Playing in a band with the old one helped us earn the money toward the new one.
Hope you find what you are looking for!
Baz

Subject: RE: concertinas
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Jun 00 - 07:02 PM

My attitude, so far a musical instruments and other things are concerned, has tended to be to get by with something inexpensive, and trust that in time if Ideserve it, and keep my eyes open, something will turn up that I can afford that's a lot better. It's always worked out so far.

I'd be scared to take around a musical instrument that cost as much as a car. Too much tension in the air. And I've seen so much great music played by people who don't have much money on instruments that didn't cost the earth.

Subject: RE: concertinas
From: Margo
Date: 28 Jun 00 - 08:04 PM

WHICH TO PLAY: Rent both types (one then the other). I rented an ANGLO and started to learn it but I quickly found that I couldn't do what I wanted to do with it. My purpose was to be able to accompany myself singing with chords. I chose the ENGLISH because after trying that, I found that I could play the things I heard Lou Killen playing in sea shanteys.

As I understand it, the Anglo is good in melodic lines: very good in Celtic music. I find I can do both chords and melody with the English. It's just a different system. But the very best advice I got was to try both styles.

I was lucky in getting my Wheatstone. I had an anglo on order from a maker (for some reason I was convinced that the anglo was the way to go)but when I told the concertina maker I had to cancel my order, he told me he had taken an English on trade, and I ended up buying it.

Let us know what you do! Margo

Subject: RE: concertinas
From: GUEST,Barry Finn
Date: 28 Jun 00 - 08:54 PM

You may also find some useful infomation here. http://www.harbour.demon.co.uk/concerti.htm
Barry

Subject: RE: concertinas
From: GUEST,Barry Finn
Date: 28 Jun 00 - 08:56 PM

Whoops, looks like that was already posted. Barry

Subject: RE: concertinas
From: Bagpuss
Date: 29 Jun 00 - 05:53 AM

Thanks everyone. I think I am going to buy a cheap one, and then get a better one if I am any good, and enjoy it. I have a funny shaped finger on my right hand, which at the beginners session made it difficult to play certain notes - which is why I was particularly interested in the miniature one.

I'll ask hobgoblin about its range etc.

Bagpuss

Subject: RE: concertinas
From: GUEST,KingBrilliant
Date: 29 Jun 00 - 06:29 AM

Best of luck Bagpuss. Incidentally, I am told that funny fingers don't cause too much problem on the concertina. I have one missing on my right hand & when I asked the tutor whether that would be a problem she told me that she has taught people with various missing/misshapen fingers & they all get by fine. You can get wrist-strap thingies if the little-finger-holdy things are a problem. I'd definitely have to do that.

Kris

Subject: RE: concertinas
From: GUEST,Scott Davies
Date: 29 Jun 00 - 07:44 AM

Over the winter I restored an old Wheatstone English for a friend: new pads, new springs, new wrist straps, some bellow patching and a full retune to modern concert pitch. Took about 40 hours work, but well worth it as the box was picked up for £75 and it only took about £100 in parts. I do repairs as a hobby, so can do it far cheaper than somebody trying to make a living out of it. If you can find a suitable candidate for restoration and want to discuss this with me then email me at [e-mail] .

I'm just outside Dunfermline (Not far North of Edinburgh)

Scott

Subject: RE: concertinas
From: Bagpuss
Date: 29 Jun 00 - 08:51 AM

Thanks Scott, I'll look into it, and will certainly contact you if I find a suitable candidate.

Bagpuss

Subject: RE: concertinas
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 29 Jun 00 - 09:37 AM

I am not a concertina player (although I do play melodeon) but I would be very careful when buying the cheaper instruments. I once bought a second hand Hohner anglo and it was awful and the reeds were very sluggish. Even a friend of mine who is a very good player could do little with it. I am a little wiser about these types of intruments now than I was when I made that purchase and I have yet to try a cheaper model that I would consider buying.

If I did decide to take up playing the concertina, I would be looking for an anglo and I think I would be looking for something like a Lacheneal for staters and I certainly would be very interested in the type of offer that Scott has made.

Jon

Subject: RE: concertinas
From: GUEST,Scott Davies
Date: 29 Jun 00 - 09:48 AM

When buying an old concertina try to stick to the well respected names like Lachenal, Wheatstone and Crab (if you can find a Jeffries then kill for it!) With these there's usually some hope of creating a reasonable instrument from even quite a wreck. One of the hardest things to sort is a warped reed pan, so always take an instrument apart before buying and check this.

I've a couple of old Lachenal Anglos (not for sale), one I've restored and one that's undergoing surgery at the moment (awaiting full retune), both of which I managed to find for around the £100 mark, so good instruments can be found for sensible prices.

Scott

Subject: RE: concertinas
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 29 Jun 00 - 10:22 AM

Thinking of Jeffries, the friend I mentioned in my previous post had an absolute beauty but she had it stolen from her car when she was in Dublin a few years ago. She has another Jeffries now, still a good instrument but not quite the same as her old one - she once told me that she once met Noel Hill and he played it and wanted to buy it from her!

Jon

Subject: RE: concertinas
From: Bert
Date: 29 Jun 00 - 01:33 PM

Scott, could you give us some pointers regarding retuning a concertina. I have a Chemnitzer in pieces at home and it will probably need retuning before I put it back together.

Bert.

Subject: RE: concertinas
From: GUEST,Scott Davies
Date: 04 Jul 00 - 07:45 AM

Hi Bert,

Sorry for the delay in replying, I've been off for a long weekend at Scarborough Fayre.

First thing to note is that the reeds need to be played at the right pressure to get a true reading of the state of tune; you can suck through a reed to check it will sound, but you really need to play it in the box to check its pitch.

Second point is take it slow! The amount of metal you need to take off is miniscule. Start by using a couple of draws of a file across the reed between checks until you get a feel for what effect its having.

To tune a reed you take metal off the top face of the reed; if the reed's sharp then you file at the fixed end, if it's flat then you file at the tip.

Reeds curl when filed; you need to apply gentle pressure to the underside of the reed to gently bend it back.

You need to protect the reed mount from the file; I find a strip of beer can does the trick.

Filing a reed can drag the metal over the edge of the reed and mess up the clearance between the reed and the mount. If this happens then you need to VERY carefully file the edge of the reed.

Reeds are fickle; you can tune them one day to perfect pitch and then find they're 0.2 of a semitone out the following morning. This is in a centrally heated house, so it isn't just temperature changes. They don't tend to be as bad when small changes are being made, so tune reeds in stages.

Try and tune the box so all reeds are within 0.1 of a semitone, very few people can hear better than that.

Tune between true and 0.1 sharp; reeds tend to go flat during use.

If in any doubt it's probably best to leave the tuning to somebody who knows what they're doing. (But then if I'd listened to that advice I'd never have gained the knowledge myself).

Hope this helps, any further questions then it's probably better to use email as I don't have time to read the forum that often.

[e-mail]

Scott

Subject: RE: concertinas
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Jul 00 - 12:45 PM

a friend here in Wash DC area has one of the major concertina pages on the net...you might find something of interest...be ready for graphics and a style all his own..*grin*.... Don Nichols page

includes listings of stolen concertinas and serial #s of models, as well as repair tricks.

Subject: RE: concertinas
From: JohnB
Date: 04 Jul 00 - 08:11 PM

OK lets go back to the warped reed pan bit, too late was the cry. I already have one of those. The good news is it is a Lachenal, unfortunately an Anglo. The really bad news is it has this warped reed pan on one end. It also needs new pads and a couple of pin holes fixing in the bellows. Any advice would be appreciated, unless matches and power tools are involved. The really good news is that I only paid 15$can for it. JohnB

Subject: RE: concertinas
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 05 Jul 00 - 12:06 AM

G'day Bert, John and anyone else keen/game to work on their concertinas:

In the 80s, a couple of concertinaing friends here in Australia brought out Concertina magazine (about 25 copies). This had history, clubs, meetings and technical articles on repair and rebuilding of concertinas (by concertina maker/repairer Richard Evans).

These have been gathered and made available in facsimile from The Wongawilli Bush Band's offshoot Carrawobbity Publishing at the following address (OK ... I have yet to remember the HTML for Blue Clicky Things - I would look it up in the FAQ, but I'm not sure this posting wouldn't vanish while I was doing that!)

http://www.wollongong.starway.net.au/~gsmurray/wonga/pioneer.htm#Forthcoming Projects

Anyway, have a look around, they are a fun group and work hard at getting out folk publications at the lowest cost possible.

Regards,

Bob Bolton (plays 20 and 21 key LachenalAnglos - the real old 'Bush' squeezeboxes)

Subject: RE: concertinas
From: p.j.
Date: 05 Jul 00 - 12:15 AM

I'm no good on this topic personally, but I think it would be worth your while to send a personal message to RiGGy on the subject before you buy-- he's got the English concertina scene pretty well dialed in.

Best to you PJ

Subject: RE: concertinas
From: Lucius
Date: 05 Jul 00 - 12:29 AM

Another good site would be www.buttonbox.com Squeezeboxes are their only business. I don't own stock, I just liked dealing with them. They ship.

Lucius

Subject: RE: concertinas
From: GUEST,Scott Davies
Date: 06 Jul 00 - 07:22 AM

Regarding warped reed pans:

The usual cause of warping is the mounting blocks for the reed pan coming loose, so the first thing to do is check all corners of the reed pan are supported and reglue or replace any missing or loose blocks. If the warping is minor then this will cure the problem.

Next step would be to try and build up the chamois leather between the compartments to regain a good seal.

If this doesn't work, then I guess the only answer is to remove all the chamois leather strips, sand the dividers to regain a flat surface and then replace all the chamois leather. You'll probably have to reposition the supporting blocks to get it to seal again. Probably a good idea to remove all the reeds before sanding as they won't like the dust in them.

Scott

Subject: RE: concertinas
From: JohnB
Date: 06 Jul 00 - 07:10 PM

Thanks Scott you are right about the reed pan retainer, that would be the little triangular block that fell out the first time I took it apart. Will try some of your other suggestions next time. Thanks again JohnB.