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BS: Afterlife belongs to my Mom
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Subject: Afterlife belongs to my Mom From: Lena Date: 27 Jul 00 - 12:13 PM Now,this is such an OUT OF TOPIC,out of my head thread to start...but I had to do it. Basically.A lot of Mudcatters here will come from a Scottish/irish background,which means a Catholic one.Others from a protestant one.Others will be atheists. This thread is basically about being brought up in a religion,or simply sharing a particular experience. Ok,I'm starting. Frame:I was born right before the eighties,in a family of communists and civil fighters.In the seventies,when Italy went through the Fear Strategy( Government secret services and exrtreme Right wing blowing bombs in squares & train stations to create fear and confusion and divert citizens on witchcraft so that they wouldn't turn against a very corrupted political machine)(and blah blah.)and anarchists and communists were used as scapegoats,my grandfather,a lawyer,defended them and was even sent in jail for revealing the plot.When released,his family was saved from the house exploding.I was born when my father was in hospital,knocked off from a gang of fascists.I can't even remember the first time I went to a Union march.In those times,the Christian Party was ruling the country and people in churchs were told that communists ate children.There was a stricht and tense division between 'reds' and religious individuals. Now comes the fun,since in the middle of this red storm I was actually raised in a convent from the age of three.(those blessed nuns taught me to read music as a first thing...).I would go to mass at six in the morning and go on that refrain all day.My life was a happy mess of spirituality,love(I was outrageously loved from each one of those sisters.They "teached"me to love unconditionally,never judge...they taught me to feel intimacy with human beings.),lullabies about Che Guevara and fairies.I loved it. It went on like that until the age of twelve. as soon as I got out of there,I took up drawing and painting(I must confess,music comes second in my life.............)and never went to Church or whatever.I took God and love for granted.I thought he was a permanent caddle on me from something with a great sense of humor.I never believed in evil,just in stupidity. Then my mother woke up one day believing in God.She decided she was catholic.She became viciously,morbidly devoted,trying to drag me in Church and to be blessed,and so on .It ended up that I got so hostile and suspicious toward beliefs - and I couldn't even confess myself that I can't help believing in God and chatting with him all the time.I was orrified by religiosity. now.Last week I went to visit this Community outside Sydney.They live in a farm,in families,in modesty and poverty.They behave and pray like early Christians before Church was 'invented'.They play and dance together,loving each other and all these things. I got out of there,and I'm suddenly very curious about how people lives religion.Often when grow up in a religious way you can't take away the feeling of a God,or an Order.Some people can be atheists.Some people can adjust it in the most confortable,permissive way(like me...)and some others can bear the vertiginous,deep,concept of Sin and observe commandments and stuff like that.Very admirable integrity... I must also add that so many folk musicians look happily atheist and rational. How about you?! (I know it's a delicate topic.Please don't abuse if you don't like it.) The full phrase from the title,"There is an Afterlife and it belongs to my Mom"comes from a theatre improvisation session. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Afterlife belongs to my Mom From: MMario Date: 27 Jul 00 - 12:19 PM hoo-boy! yeah - a touchy subject. Let me just say that some people who have told me they are athiests are in my view some of the most religious people I have met. they just don't know it. Likewise some of the people I know who claim to be religious seem not to have any sort of faith or spirituality that I can percieve. (Note Bene: this may well be my own fault) I decided long ago to pay more attention to faith/religion and less to church/denomination if you know what I mean. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Afterlife belongs to my Mom From: Lena Date: 27 Jul 00 - 12:35 PM I did as well.But in all honesty,just to do whatever I wanted.Not committing to any 'label'keeps me free from any law to respect,therefore the risk is to get incredibly superficial.Because in the end,I wouldn't be able to give up any immediate,material desire for the threat of contemplating Eternity and Perfection... There is people who do it.They can.They feel something...I don't know.I don't know what pushes them,who calls them,but they make it and they're perfectly happy. Nota bene......... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Afterlife belongs to my Mom From: Kim C Date: 27 Jul 00 - 12:44 PM Well, this is very interesting. I do not usually talk about my religious beliefs as I hold them sacred and personal. However, I will break tradition here since you asked. I came up in a Southern Baptist environment where the adult leaders didn't take kindly to my "enquiring mind" approach. I always wanted to know "why." They couldn't answer. I never liked the structure of a "church" per se. (Now, this is not to slight any of you who derive great pleasure from going to a church.) I wanted to talk to God on my own terms, not someone else's. I wanted to pray my own prayers, not the preacher's. So now I do. When people ask where I go to church, I politely tell them that I have church at home. Or in the car, or in the garden, wherever the mood strikes me. I subscribe to the Shakers' belief that using your God-given talents to produce a job well done is a form of worship. (However, that is about the ONLY Shaker belief to which I susbscribe! Celibacy is -not- for me.) Sharing your gifts with others is a form of worship. That's how I do it. Many won't agree with me, and that's okay. We can each have a fish, can't we? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Afterlife belongs to my Mom From: GUEST,Patrish Date: 27 Jul 00 - 12:45 PM I am Happily athiest, I believe that some religions deny tolerance of others. I don't like the word religion - it conjures up people telling other people how to think. Patrish |
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Subject: RE: BS: Afterlife belongs to my Mom From: DougR Date: 27 Jul 00 - 12:56 PM I was raised in the Southern Baptist tradition, as was my wife. Both of us, however, became disillusioned with that church because we felt it left little room to think for oneself, and we both felt that the Bible was an important religious book, but that it should not be taken literally. It was, we believed open to interpretation and that didn't necessarily mean someone else's interpretation. After we married, we became Episcopalians and brought our children up in that church. We felt that the Episcopal Church allowed it's members to think for themselves, and we were comfortable in it. We brought up our three children in that church. We moved some distance from our home church in the mid-seventies and did not find another we felt fit our needs as the one we left did (we also grew a bit lazy), and just stopped attending church for almost twenty years. We adopted the stance so many others take: you do not have to attend a church in order to be a good Christian (which I still believe). Our oldest daughter and her family attended a Christian church after they married in the mid 70s, and my other two children, upon reaching adulthood, stopped attending any church. Shortly after my wife died last August, my oldest daughter and her family began attending our old church (Epicopal) and I went along one Sunday with them. I never realized how much I had missed attending church, and how much comfort it provided me as I was entering a very difficult stage of life that everyone will experience at one time or another. My youngest daugher and her son began attending our church about three months ago, and my grandson was baptised in early July. As a father and grandfather, it is wonderful to have most of my family with me every Sunday occupying a pew together. My son has not chosen to return to church, and who knows, its a personal decision so he may never return. Anyway, for me, it has been a very positive experience. I think I appreciate attending church more now, than I ever did in my lifetime. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Afterlife belongs to my Mom From: Mbo Date: 27 Jul 00 - 01:00 PM There is a great part of Bible where God says "I don't care about the big temples you build for me. I don't care about stupid sacrifices! Your insence makes me sneeze! Your gaudy show that you believe in Me will get you nowhere! My love for you is unconditional. All I ask is that you do good, and be kind to others, without prejudice. If you do this, it is reason enough to keep your head up." --Matt |
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Subject: RE: BS: Afterlife belongs to my Mom From: MMario Date: 27 Jul 00 - 01:15 PM Doug - I also find a great comfort in attending church services (oddly enough, also Episcopalian) - However I have to admit that for me it is a social activity more then an act of faith. That doesn't mean I don't get anything spiritually out of the service, but that it is not my primary focus. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Afterlife belongs to my Mom From: GUEST,Banjo Johnny Date: 27 Jul 00 - 01:47 PM It's fine for people to believe in religion and go to church. The trouble comes when they want to force it upon other people. And the tragic stupidity is when people are killing each other over which church to attend - the kind of thing that happens in Northern Ireland, and the Middle East. Here in the USA we have freedom of religion, which includes freedom from religion. People have asked me, "how can an atheist like you sing Jesus songs?" I tell them, a good song is a good song. == Banjo Johnny |
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Subject: RE: BS: Afterlife belongs to my Mom From: Allan C. Date: 27 Jul 00 - 02:13 PM When asked, I usually tell people that I am a Pedestrian. I believe very strongly in the existence of greater power. But I also believe very strongly that religions were not created by that power - or at least not directly; they are inventions of Man. I fault nobody for believing in organized religions. There is comfort to be had there for those who adhere to those religions. But I feel that I have had a "personal relationship with God" all along without the guidance of any spiritual leader. As a result, my fears are my own and my guilt is of my own choosing rather than those imposed by man-made sources. I simply live my life in such a way as to do the least harm to the things and people around me. I also try to share as much as is possible of what I have to give. That seems like enough to concern myself with. There is another thread which discussed some thoughts along this line. It is worth a look. Allan C. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Afterlife belongs to my Mom From: Kim C Date: 27 Jul 00 - 03:30 PM I'm with Allan C. I have to tell a funny story. My friends, who are Episcopalian, invited Mister and me to their baby's christening during Easter Vigil. I hadn't been to an Episcopal church in over 20 years and I found out why they call it a Vigil. They started reading from Genesis, Chapter 1, Verse 1, and an hour later I was sure they were not going to stop until they had read the whole Bible and we were going to be there until sunrise the next morning. Finally the baptisms happened. I turned around to see that our friends had abandoned us! Abandoned us, I tell you! At about 9:30 pm (the service started at 7) we sneaked out. The next Monday my friend called and asked, "Did you get stuck in church?" Well, of course I let her have it, albeit in a good-natured way. They invited us to Eucharist at a historic church that only holds services for that occasion. I said, we aren't going to be there for two and a half hours, are we?!!! In all fairness, we did enjoy the Easter Vigil but I was just amused because I hadn't known what to expect 'cause we never did that sort of stuff in the Baptist church. I didn't take communion at Eucharist either because everyone was drinking out of the same cup! :) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Afterlife belongs to my Mom From: Lena Date: 28 Jul 00 - 06:38 AM Nasty fiends!! When i was in that religious community,I was struck from the strenght and ecstasy of their belief.It was also the first time I got in touch with the protestant Bilble,which basically cuts off all the nice bits of the Bible(Those ones exaltating phisical love like the Song of songs and others exaltating love for Knowledge and using your brain...).However,in the end,I'm glad there are religions.I think that god must be behind all of them.People can be happy following rules and rites. If it all turns into forcing others to your beliefs,that's human stupidity and it has nothing to do with the concept of religion. Three days ago,in the middle of my religious/not religious crisis,I decided to climb up the hill overlooking the valley,turn my head to the sunset sky(Ok God,whatch me in my eyeballs now and tell me the truth...)and stay there untill I could have a clue of who God was for me and what did he want me to do.And do it seriously. As I reached the top of the hill,a cry stopped me. From the next hill,someone was screaming:"GOOOOD!!!!HELP MEEEEEE!!!!!". The next morning I decided to go back in Sydney. And I assisted the most amazing jamming I've ever seen in my short life. People were smoking from their ears,chairs were jumping...And I'm sure I sensed God right there,having fun with us. I find it interesting,many of you find church a pleasant solution. Is that also for the feeling of other people praying with you?! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Afterlife belongs to my Mom From: wysiwyg Date: 28 Jul 00 - 07:51 AM Lena, Thank you for raising this subject so effectively. I look forward to contributing to it next time I am at the office, where there is a computer that does not lock up like this silly laptop I am on at the moment. I have been corresponding with a number of Christian 'Catters about spiritual matters, and I hope they will post here also. ~S~
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Subject: RE: BS: Afterlife belongs to my Mom From: Mbo Date: 28 Jul 00 - 07:55 AM God doesn't want you to do anything! Except live your life. It doesn't matter how. God has no pre-written destinies for everyone. Your future and your life are what you make of them. And make it a good one. --M |
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Subject: RE: BS: Afterlife belongs to my Mom From: DougR Date: 28 Jul 00 - 12:04 PM Wow, MBO, God told you that? :>) KimC: I get your point. I'd have been a bit teed off too. My grandson's baptism service might have taken 15 minutes. Certainly no more, and it was done separate from any other service. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Afterlife belongs to my Mom From: wysiwyg Date: 28 Jul 00 - 12:19 PM Well, the idea of dipping or sprinkling people in at the Vigil is that it is the historic re-telling of the story of God's love for us and our response, and thus it is a community-binding sort of thing into which new members of the community are enrollled, welcomed, celelbrated, woven in so to speak. The restoration and commemoration or a people's oral history, and the continuation of the people. When Hardiman does private baptisms, it is lovely but different. Doing them at least in a public service says something also about the role of the people present to support the spiritual life of the baptized person. Me, I bring a cushion. Those pews are hard. Or I sneak back behind the back pew and stretch out. Good Friday is all afternoon, and there was much horizontal meditation going on for me. Sometimes you have to make these things work FOR you in order for them to work on you. ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Afterlife belongs to my Mom From: MandolinPaul Date: 28 Jul 00 - 12:45 PM Despite my strong United Church upbringing (or more likely because of it), I have become an adamant atheist. My ideal after-life is that there won't be one (finally! some sleep!).
I don't know if any of you have heard about the tornado in Alberta a couple of weeks ago. A minister and his family were visiting out there helping to build homes for the poor. The tornado came along and killed their two-year-old son. In my opinion, that poor kid is the poster-child for atheism. If there really was a God, he would deserve to have his ass kicked for that. Paul. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Afterlife belongs to my Mom From: Rick Fielding Date: 28 Jul 00 - 01:28 PM Wonderfully worded Lena. It shouldn't BE a touchy subject if it continues in this fashion. I was raised ostensibly Protestant (Canadian United Church) but found that by the age of twelve or thirteen, I simply didn't believe that "my" denomination had "better" answers than anyone else's. I read constantly about history and religion (as well as baseball) and came to the conclusion that much of the ceremony used by all religions was simply to mask the BIG questions. "Why are we here, and where do we go?" I found it terribly troubling that EVERY war and every anihilation of people had religious support at it's base. That's when I realized that whatever our origins and whatever "higher power" placed us here, the original motives had long been compromised by man's ambition, greed and cruelty. I also saw how so many folk NEEDED a "name" a "denomination", a series of rituals, a sense of "we know THE answer" in order to survive. I feel that as far as an afterlife goes, I'll find out when I pass, as will everyone else (including the "man appointed religious leaders". Guess that doesn't make me an atheist, but kind of an "usure Agnostic." I know this much though. Treat people decently, and you'll sleep well at night. Thanks for a thoughtful thread. It's been needed lately. Rick |
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Subject: RE: BS: Afterlife belongs to my Mom From: IvanB Date: 28 Jul 00 - 01:45 PM I've already stated in another thread that I'm an atheist. That wasn't my upbringing, however, and for many years I was a faithful Episcopalian. Perhaps like Banjo Johnny, despite my atheist beliefs I believe some of the world's most beautiful music has been written in praise of a god - whatever or whoever that may be. And, frankly, I believe that well sung Anglican chant can be some of the most uplifting of all music. So I still attend religious services now and then just for a dose of the music. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Afterlife belongs to my Mom From: Mbo Date: 28 Jul 00 - 03:18 PM OK, can we just let this one die? No one's mind is going to be changed. Believe what you want to believe. I'm not going to force anything on you. Just leave me alone and accept that I believe what I do, and don't knock it. I won't knock what you believe. "Everyone to their own taste, as the old lady said as she kissed the cow." Thank you. --Matt |
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Subject: RE: BS: Afterlife belongs to my Mom From: MandolinPaul Date: 28 Jul 00 - 03:40 PM No need to "just let this one die", Mbo. I'm not trying to change anyone's mind, and there ain't nobody gonna change mine. But it sure is nice to see a discussion going on without tempers flairing. Paul |
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Subject: RE: BS: Afterlife belongs to my Mom From: DougR Date: 28 Jul 00 - 03:45 PM MBO: I don't for a minute question your right to believe anything you want. None of my business what you do or do not believe. I believe though, a fair reading of your posting would indicate that you are telling us what God wants us to do. That would suggest to me at least that you feel that you have some kind of personal realationship with God that allows you to speak for him. To those who do not believe there is a God, it doesn't matter, I guess. To those of us that do, it seems to me a bit presumptious. Just my opinon, of course, and not intended in an unkind way. Said, instead, in a most friendly way. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Afterlife belongs to my Mom From: Naemanson Date: 28 Jul 00 - 04:15 PM This thread touches on one of my favorite soap boxes but I will try not to climb up on it. I would like to say a few things. Please note that the first point below does not apply to the people who are involved in this discussion. There is a difference between the reasoned discussion we are enjoying and those who proselytize. Within the confines of this discussion it would be natural to discuss one's beliefs. I believe one's personal beliefs are just that, personal and private. I don't trust anyone who feels they have to stand up and wave their beliefs around like a flag calling for others to join them. Christianity (and other religions as well) have a great many wonderful ideas that could go far to making this a better world. But the hand of Man corrupts all that it touches and the churches were built by the hand of Man. I recently attended, at a friend's insistence, a Baptist church one Sunday morning. During the sermon the pastor made a point of including statements about the abomination of homosexuality. This is yet again an effort to warp the "Word of God" to his own personal views. He may not personally like the idea of homosexuality but he has no right to instill his fear and loathing in the minds of his congregation. If the laws handed down by God are immutable then I can sell my daughters into slavery or kill my neighbor for working on a Sunday. (And no, they are not for sale!) Read the Bible, take into yourselves the basic rules of society (Love One Another, Do Unto Others..., Turn the Other Cheek, Honor Your Parents, etc.), and eschew the churches except as the social organizations they are. I guess I did climb up on to that soap box after all. Sorry. I'll try to do better next time. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Afterlife belongs to my Mom From: Mbo Date: 28 Jul 00 - 04:28 PM You people, I swear. Damned if you do, and damned if you don't. Fine, I don't care. Bye. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Afterlife belongs to my Mom From: MandolinPaul Date: 28 Jul 00 - 04:29 PM I don't get it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Afterlife belongs to my Mom From: wysiwyg Date: 28 Jul 00 - 08:55 PM Mbo, see me. ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Afterlife belongs to my Mom From: GUEST,Luther Date: 28 Jul 00 - 08:58 PM what's not to get? He tries enlighten you people to the true will of God, and you act like his opinion is no better than anyone else's. O, ye serpents, ye generation of vipers!
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Subject: RE: BS: Afterlife belongs to my Mom From: Ebbie Date: 28 Jul 00 - 09:46 PM "You can trust the moon to move the mighty oceans You can trust the sun to shine upon the land You take the little that you know and you do the best you can And you see the rest with the quiet faith of man..." Bill Staines |
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Subject: RE: BS: Afterlife belongs to my Mom From: DougR Date: 28 Jul 00 - 11:40 PM Whoa! I thought this thread was all about one's belief of afterlife, and one's own personal religious beliefs. I shared with my Mudcat friends my own personal beliefs. No attempt to sway anyone else's opinion was certainly intended. If I was a bit "heavey" with MBO's posting, I'm sorry. It wasn't personal. MBO has as much right to his/her opinion as anyone else. I am not a missionary, and and make no argument for my cause. Just stating what I believe. The beliefs of others are not my business. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Afterlife belongs to my Mom From: Lena Date: 29 Jul 00 - 03:36 AM One of the reasons of my hot potato thread was to reach sharing without confrontation. When religious wars and prosecutions happen,it's partly(as in everything)for a lack of communication.Afterall,it's all about enjoining it.Nowdays,no-one in a religion doesn't enjoy it.If you feel like going to church and respecting the law,it means you feel comfortable with it.If you feel like having you own fun,go for free-love,sleep on Sunday morning and disobey your parents'will,you decide that those laws are not about God(as I do).If you'd feel better without the perception of God,or you can't conceive it,fine,you're an atheist.But nobody is forced.It'a personal choice.So there wouldn't be any tension,eh?! But if different believers had ever faced each other,if every muslim or whatever had seen a fervent,say,buddhist,and realized he was perfectly fit in his own buddhist reality,many intillerant sqish-squash would have been avoided. We probably feel threatened in facing the argument. The day before starting this thread,I would have abused anyone trying to get me to talk about God.Self -defence... I could never be episcopal,or baptist,or else.I used to think that protestanteism was a puritan folly.But now I see that some of you are happy with you.It helps me opening my mind to different realities. One of the hardest things is usually understand others may not feel your same way.And that they are not enemies for this. Religion is still an issue,probably also because now it's not that fashonable anymore.People would find you nuts or annoying if you walked in and claimed to believe in God. It's a personal,closed,intimate thing now. The all sermon is to thank you for your messages(and your not liking the whole thing as well)which taught me a lot about others. Beside the fact that to talk about God makes me feel naked and I blush when I admit to believe in some God. But if I didn't need to believe,I'd be happily atheist.the whole point is about freedom |
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Subject: RE: BS: Afterlife belongs to my Mom From: Lena Date: 29 Jul 00 - 04:04 AM The all thing reminds me about an italian folk song from the fifties.I sang it yesterday in meeting a Mudcatter in Sydney,and I guessed I appreciated the story like never before. those ones familiar with Christian Symbolisms might see God behind the fisherman feeding the murderer(the way he breaks the bread and poures the wine): The Fisherman's Song Under the shadow of the last sun/ there was a fisherman falling asleep/ he had a sink across his face/ like some sort of smile/ A murderer came to the beach/ big childlike eyes/ open-wide eyes of fear/ they were mirroring an adventure/ Lallala.../ And he told the old man:give me the bread/ I've got no time and too much hunger/ and he told the old man:give me the wine/ I'm thirsty and I'm a murderer/ The old man opened his eyes to daylight/ he didn't even look around/ but he just broke the bread,poured the wine/ for who was saying I'm thirsty I'm hungry Lalala.. And it was a one moment's warmth/ then again against the wind/ then again against the sun/ a fisherman left behind/ A fisherman left behind/ and the memory 's pain already/ it's longing for an april/ played under the shadow of a garden/ Lalala... Two police guards came over the beach/ they came over with their weapons/ and asked the fisherman if nearby/ a murderer had passed/ But under the shadow of the last sun/ a fisherman had fallen asleep/ and he had this sink through his face/ like some sort of smile/ he had this sink through his face/ like a smile (Fabrizio De Andre'.Sorry if the translation is a bit awkward) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Afterlife belongs to my Mom From: MandolinPaul Date: 29 Jul 00 - 06:43 AM Hey Luther.
Actually, his opinion doesn't matter more than anyone else's. Neither does mine for that matter.
Well OK. Mine matters a little more. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Afterlife belongs to my Mom From: Lena Date: 29 Jul 00 - 07:18 AM Paul,about your tornado in Alberta,I don't think that proves anything against God. If God was this Disney-like being always caring about not hurting us,well none of us would learn anything in the space of a lifetime,always smiling in a childcare environment never facing troubles,I guess. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Afterlife belongs to my Mom From: MandolinPaul Date: 29 Jul 00 - 07:44 AM Hey Lena
I was just trying to come up with a good argument against you last statement, with an analogy about my son (comparing God's creation of humankind to our creating a son; possibly a little blasphemous, but you know what I mean). My son is eight weeks old, and I wouldn't want anything bad to ever happen to him.
But then I thought that I will have to let him learn some things for himself, like not being careful while playing can cause a fall, and a skinned knee. Of course, my argument against that would have been that a skinned knee is pretty insignificant compared to some of the things that your god would have us learn.
But...then I thought that if there were a God, our problems would seem pretty insignificant to Him. So basically, I came up with arguments against you and then came up with your rebuttal arguments.
Unfortunately, this isn't the kind of thing that can be reasoned out, to come up with the right answer. If there really was a god of any kind, I doubt that any of us could figure out his reasoning.
Despite all of that, I still think that there isn't such an animal, and that if there were, he's an arsehole.
Paul. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Afterlife belongs to my Mom From: Noreen Date: 29 Jul 00 - 09:40 AM One of the hardest things is usually understand others may not feel your same way.And that they are not enemies for this. This phrase of yours jumped out at me, Lena and will stay in my mind- you are very eloquent. I feel the same as you that talking about such things makes me feel naked -exposing those innermost thoughts and feelings to public scrutiny is scary, even (or especially) with friends. So that's enough for me, for now. Noreen and Lena, I like the Italian song above but could you explain what is meant by the 'sink' across his face which sounds odd. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Afterlife belongs to my Mom From: GUEST,Luther Date: 29 Jul 00 - 10:07 AM Paul S -- Bertrand Russell does a pretty good job of countering the various arguments for the existence of God, it's a theme he tackled in various essays and lectures -- one in particular is "Why I Am Not A Christian". I think the mythology of the Israelites is just about the cruelest thing I've ever read, and how it has persisted from pre-history into the present moment as a standard for moral rectitude is more than I can fathom.
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Subject: RE: BS: Afterlife belongs to my Mom From: Peter T. Date: 29 Jul 00 - 10:30 AM I am a serious Buddhist, but even Buddhism (which is a religion for people who hate religion, which is why I gravitated towards it) cannot cope with the injustice of unmerited suffering in the world. Anyone who has been through it or witnessed it in loved ones or seen people respond to it with incredible dignity cannot take cardboard religious stuff seriously. That is all blown away and engulfed like tissue paper in a firestorm. If you have not experienced that, then you have been lucky in life so far, and I pray that it continues that way for you as long as possible. It is all a deep mystery (if it is a mystery and not just the universe as a dumb killing machine), and none of the solutions offered make any sense, including Christian atonement, Muslim obedience, Hindu cosmodynamics, or Buddhist awakening, except to those who believe in them. All the rest of it is just the kind of thing you see posted over cash registers in diners, and is spiritual Muzak. yours, Peter T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Afterlife belongs to my Mom From: Lena Date: 30 Jul 00 - 12:53 AM Noreen,a 'sink'is a deep wrinkle.I didn't know the exact word in English.It sounds strange,when I was little(children take songs' lyrics literally,you know)I tried hard to picture it somewhere across a face.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Afterlife belongs to my Mom From: Lena Date: 30 Jul 00 - 01:04 AM Paul,S,congratulation for your son.If you want the opposite perspective,when I was seven I was told that there was a God loving me more than my mother-I couldn't stand it.Who was he to intrude between the two of us like that?! And Peter,many of the people I've seen turning religious were hurt,hurt,hurt people who couldn't find any other healing.As for me,I've been through some hard things in my life I try not even to remember,but I never connected the grief with God or whatever-apart from turning to the sky and saying:"You're having fun,he?!What an enjoyable sense of humor,go on...".I think they're life.It's a pattern.They always led to a new phase(luckily....),however umbearable the pain... I forgot to say,Paul,I liked a lot your observation:I'm glad there's no afterlife-finally some sleep!!! |