Lyr Add: Dancing at Whitsun

Subject: Lyr Add: DANCING AT WHITSUN (John Austin Marshall)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 Aug 00 - 05:29 PM

The lyrics are in the database here (click), but somebody suggested that our transcription of the lyrics is into completely accurate. I've checked CD booklets from Bok-Muir-Trickett and Priscilla Herdman and listened to a Jean Redpath recording, and this is what I've come up with. I can't find a copyright date for the song - can anybody give us copyright information? Also, any additional information about the song or about John Austin Marshall would be helpful. The tune is indicated to be "The False Bride" - is it completely traditional?

---

DANCING AT WHITSUN
(words by John Austin Marshall)

It's fifty long springtimes since she was a bride,
But still you may see her at each Whitsuntide
In a dress of white linen with ribbons of green,
As green as her memories of loving.

The feet that were nimble tread carefully now,
As gentle a measure as age will allow,
Through groves of white blossoms, by fields of young corn,
Where once she was pledged to her true love.

The fields they stand empty, the hedges grow free--
No young men to turn them, our pastures go seed
They are gone where the forests of oak trees before
Have gone, to be wasted in battle.

Down from the green farmlands and from their loved ones
Marched husbands and brothers and fathers and sons.
There's a fine roll of honor where the Maypole once stood,
And the ladies go dancing at Whitsun.

There's a straight row of houses in these latter days
All covering the downs where the sheep used to graze.
There's a field of red poppies, a wreath from the Queen
But the ladies remember at Whitsun,
And the ladies go dancing at Whitsun.

on Bok-Trickett-Muir "Harbors of Home." Also Jean Redpath's self-titled Philo album and Tim Hart and Maddy Prior on "Summer Solstice" and Priscilla Herdman on "Water Lily."

Copyright John Austin Marshall 1968
@war @dance
filename[ DNCWHIT
Tune file : FLSEBRD2

CLICK TO PLAY
D C

---

Bok-Trickett-Muir say "or pastures go see," and Herdman sings "our pastures go seed." Take your pick, at least until we find a version direct from Marshall. I think Herdman's version makes more sense.
The database says "(a gift from the Queen)" but Herdman, Redpath, and Bok-Trickett-Muir agree on "wreath."

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Dancing at Whitsun
From: GUEST,Chris Flint
Date: 10 Aug 00 - 05:54 PM

The song is in 'The Cruel Wars' by Karl Dallas and copyright is given as 1968 ( The book is published by Wolfe Publishing london)

Thanks, Chris - I added the date.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Dancing at Whitsun
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 Aug 00 - 06:13 PM

Here are the notes from the CD booklets:

• Priscilla Herdman (The Water Lily)
  The tradition of Morris Dancing had been performed exclusively by men for several hundred years. During the First World War, when the male mortality rate in some English towns and villages approached seventy percent, this tradition would have been lost were it not for the women who chose to carry it on. John Austin Marshall has written this poignant song as a tribute to the widows, sweethearts, sisters, and daughters of those men, who kept this tradition alive.
• Jean Redpath (self-titled):
  John Austin Marshall is responsible for this poignant text he set to a melody usually associated with the song The Week Before Easter. As I understand it, the song was his answer to the negative comments he heard aimed at the "little old ladies" who were performing traditional dances at Cecil Sharp House. Considering the toll taken by World War I (one village, Ascott-under-Wychwood, Oxon lost 80-90% of its male population), the role played by such women becomes something far removed from affectation.
• Bok-Trickett-Muir (Harbors of Home):
  In many places where ritual spring dances were done, women were a part of them; though when you think of the Morris, you usually think of men dancing. I'm told there came a time when England's men were fighting on so many fronts around the world that women had to step in to help remember and fill out the teams, to keep the tradition alive (Gordon Bok).

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Dancing at Whitsun
From: Stewie
Date: 10 Aug 00 - 09:26 PM

I first heard it as a solo from Tim Hart on Tim Hart and Maddy Prior 'Summer Solstice'. He sang 'or pastures go see' and 'a wreath from the queen'. He also sang 'age do allow' rather than 'age will allow'.

--Stewie.

Subject: RE: Dancing at Whitsun
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 10 Aug 00 - 09:57 PM

Marshall wrote this song for Shirley Collins, and produced the album on which it was first recorded, Anthems in Eden (1969).  The text Joe gives above is very nearly right; except for:

Verse 1, line 1: "Fifty-onespringtimes"
Verse 2, line 2: "age do allow"
Verse 3, line 2: "or pastures go see"
Verse 4, line 3: "Maypole once was
Verse 5, line 1: "row of straight houses.

Shirley has to be credited with the definitive version; the person who wrote it recorded her singing it.

Malcolm

Subject: RE: Dancing at Whitsun
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 10 Aug 00 - 10:00 PM

and I have to be credited with missing out a "B" at just the wrong place...

I added the missing "b," Malcolm. Thanks for your help.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Dancing at Whitsun
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 11 Aug 00 - 07:57 PM

This is Dallas' info:
[1973:] Austin John Marshall writes: "Many of the old ladies who swell the membership lists of Country Dance Societies are 1914/18 war widows, or ladies who have lost fiancés and lovers. Country dancing kept the memory of their young men alive. When Shirley Collins started singing the piece to the tune of The False Bride, the impact was disturbing, for many people in audiences identified with it. Tears were frequent. Now a sharp relevance in contemporary song is one thing but such a pessimistic effect was not what was intended. So when Shirley recorded the song we showed the way the spirit of the generation sacrificed in the mud of France had been caught and brought to life by the new generation born since World War II by concluding with the chorus of the Staines Morris:
Come you young men come along
With your music dance and song
Bring your lasses in your hands
For 'tis now that love commands
Then to the maypole haste away
For 'tis now a holiday." (Dallas, Wars 241)
Joe - do you have publication dates for the Herdman and Bok albums? - Susanne

Subject: RE: Dancing at Whitsun
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 11 Aug 00 - 09:13 PM

I neglected to include the copyright information from Anthems in Eden: Whitsun Dance (the song's original title) "Trad arr S. & D. Collins, Lyrics by A.J. Marshall; MCPS/Soundpost Publ./Shapiro Bernstein & Co. Ltd., 1969."

Staines Morris is, of course, here:  Staines Morris

Malcolm

Subject: RE: Dancing at Whitsun
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11 Aug 00 - 09:39 PM

Susanne - Bok-Trickett-Muir's Harbors of Home came out in September, 1998. Priscilla Herdman's The Water Lily was her first album, released in 1977 - Rounder reissued it in 1995. "Lily" is mostly the poetry of Australian Henry Lawson, set to music by Herdman and others. "Whitsun" and a couple others are thrown in as extra treats - but the whole album is a treat (but then I like all of her recordings).
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Dancing at Whitsun
From: Barbara
Date: 12 Aug 00 - 12:07 AM

Joe, I'm sure Gordon has recorded that much earlier and solo. Do you have a discography for him, or shall I go look? I know he sang it alone because my spouse likes that version better.
blessings,
Barbara

Subject: RE: Dancing at Whitsun
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Aug 00 - 10:36 AM

The version in The Cruel Wars is the same version as the one of Anthems in Eden, as detailed by Malcolm Douglas, so I think it's pretty clearly the author's preference.

More to the point (since ssongs should always be alowed to change), at least in my ears, the original lines work better than the variants quoted. ("Go seed" might read more logically than "go see", but a line ending in "seed" followed by one starting with "the" doesn't run as well.)

Subject: RE: Dancing at Whitsun
From: zander (inactive)
Date: 12 Aug 00 - 03:11 PM

Of course at one time Austin John Marshall was married to Shirley Collins, what a superb singer of English folk songs was Shirley, along with her late sister Dolly, sadly missed on the British folk scene. Dave

Subject: RE: Dancing at Whitsun - Bok?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 Aug 00 - 03:41 PM

A couple of years ago, there were hardly any Shirley Collins CD's available in the U.S. That has changed. Dick has a couple listed at CAMSCO, and I'm sure he'll soon have more. CDNOW has a number of CD's listed for Shirley Collins and for Shirley & Dolly Collins.
Yes, Barbara, I'd like you to find a Bok discography for us. I didn't find a discography at Gordon's Timberhead label, http://www.gordonbok.com, but maybe I wasn't looking in the right place. I checked Folk Music: An Index of Recorded Sources and found that Bok-Trickett-Muir recorded the song on their early Ways of Man album, but did not find a listing for a solo recording by Gordon. Seems to me I've heard a solo recording by Gordon - maybe it's the one on Ways of Man.
I'm used to calling the group Bok-Muir-Trickett, but lately it seems to be listed more often as Bok-Trickett-Muir. Did the pecking order change?
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Dancing at Whitsun
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 12 Aug 00 - 04:53 PM

Thanks, Joe, for the info. BTW, do I get thrown out of Mudcat for admitting I've never liked Shirley Collins's voice and style of singing? - Susanne

Subject: RE: Dancing at Whitsun
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 Aug 00 - 05:09 PM

Nope. I can take Shirley and long ballads only in small doses. You can sure learn a lot from her recordings, but I'ts kind of like doing homework or taking castor oil. Good for you, perhaps - but not absolute pleasure.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Dancing at Whitsun
From: Barbara
Date: 12 Aug 00 - 05:35 PM

Hi, Joe, and no, I didn't find a single discography, but I used the search engine at Folk-Legacy and it gave me the info in several pieces.
Whitsun is on Ways of Man, tho it doesn't say if it is sung by all or just Gordon. I know I have heard it done just by him.
Blessings,
Barbara

Subject: RE: Dancing at Whitsun
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Aug 00 - 07:27 PM

Small doses is the best for strong medicine. I can't imagine anyone singing The Whitsun Dances better than Shirley. And I can't think of a song that as economical and powerful. And I know I could never sing it without cracking up in the fourth verse.

Subject: RE: Dancing at Whitsun
From: Ferrara
Date: 13 Aug 00 - 12:37 AM

In the For What It's Worth department, I've always sung the start of the second verse as:

The fields they stand empty, the hedges grow free-- No young men to turn them, or pastures o'er see

where I took "o'er see" to mean "oversee" or "tend."

That is, the young men would trim hedges, plow or turn and plant the fields, but they would simply tend the pastures and watch the flocks or herds there.

Sounds as if this was not the original words but I still like it....

RF

Subject: RE: Dancing at Whitsun
From: Noreen
Date: 14 Aug 00 - 10:59 PM

Thanks for this, Joe, I've only just got your message. I can't add anything further, as Malcolm (thank you) has posted the original, but I do think "......maypole once was..." sounds awkward and I'm used to hearing "..once stood....."

Lovely to hear more of the history of the song as it's always meant a lot to me, and I'm with McGrath in finding it very difficult to sing- has to be in the right company, who understand.

Noreen

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Dancing at Whitsun
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Jan 06 - 05:23 PM

I'd like to learn this song, but the way I sing parts of the tune don't seem quite right to me. It's almost the same as Birmingham Sunday, and I think that's what's getting me confused. Are they supposed to be the same tune? I know both are based on I Once Loved a Lass, but are there differences in the tune for the three songs?
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Dancing at Whitsun
From: robinia
Date: 26 Jan 06 - 09:42 PM

I just listened to a tape of "Wany of Man" and while Bok is the lead (and initially solo) singer, he'e definitely joined by Muir and then Tricket. It would be easy to remember the song as simply sung by him, though...   
Amd Joe, Dancing at Whitsun doesn't have the same melody as the much easier to remember I Once Loved a Lass. At least, I find the second tune easier to remember and I bet a lot of other people do too. That's the trouble! If you don't depart from the simpler melody on the third and fourth notes (I had to listen again to the tape to figure this out) you find yourself falling into the wrong song,   I don't know Birmingham Sunday (and am afraid to click on the link for fear of losing my iffy Mudcat connection), but if it's something in between, then no wonder people are confused!

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Dancing at Whitsun
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 26 Jan 06 - 10:33 PM

The tune is that of another version, not the one that was used for 'Birmingham Sunday'. 'I Once Loved a Lass' (a Scottish form of the song) is given the same tune in the DT as 'Birmingham Sunday'; unfortunately no source is credited, so don't rely on it being accurate or even the right one.

Here's a provisional midi, made from memory (and so likely to contain mistakes, particularly in the phrasing) of Shirley's recording, which I only have on vinyl at the moment. It may do to start with, though. Corrections would be welcome.

http://folk-network.com/audio/whitsun.mid

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Dancing at Whitsun
From: robinia
Date: 27 Jan 06 - 01:01 AM

Shirley's rendition of Dancing at Whitsun? Fascinating (and quite different from the common form of I Once Loved a Lass). I love the way it morphs into the less ornamented Dancing at Whitsun (i.e., as Bok et al. sing the song). And are you saying that it's also a Scottish form of I Once Loved a Lass? Good melodies do travel . . .
Sorry about the typos in previous posting, but the mudcat connection this evening, at least for me, is very hit and miss, so I post and run. Are the rest of you having trouble too?

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Dancing at Whitsun
From: Mr Happy
Date: 10 Jul 08 - 09:58 AM

While at Cleckheaton FF this year, this fine song was requested & �ethough not having sung it for over 20 years, I was able to perform & recall almost all the verses.

Afterwards the requestor commented that my rendition differed slightly from the version he�fd heard [Dubliners]

From reading through this thread, I find I�fm not alone in feeling that some�fve the lyrics don�ft make sense.

This is the version I do:

DANCING AT WHITSUN (John Austin Marshall)

It's fifty long springtimes since she was a bride,
But still you may see her at each Whitsuntide
In a dress of white linen with ribbons of green,
As green as her memories of loving.

The feet that were nimble tread carefully now,
As gentle a measure as age will allow,
Through groves of white blossoms, by fields of young corn,
Where once she was pledged to her truelove.

The fields they stand empty, the hedges grow free
No young men to tend them nor pastures to seed
They are gone like the forests of oak trees before
Have gone, to be wasted in battle.

Down from the green farmlands and from their loved ones
Marched husbands and brothers and fathers and sons.
There's a fine roll of honour where the Maypole once stood,
And the ladies go dancing at Whitsun.

There's a straight row of houses in these latter days
All covering the downs where the sheep used to graze.
There's a wreath of red poppies a gift from the Queen
But the ladies remember at Whitsun,
And the ladies go dancing at Whitsun.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Dancing at Whitsun
From: Susan of DT
Date: 10 Jul 08 - 10:45 AM

There are two main tunes for the False Bride family of songs (DT #845). There is the I Aince Loved a Lass/Birmingham Sunday tune and the Week Before Easter/Dancing at Whitsun tune.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Dancing at Whitsun
From: GUEST,Arkie
Date: 10 Jul 08 - 12:50 PM

I heard this by Tim Hart and am glad to learn of the Bok version. Something else to look forward to. Have been really haunted by the song and am happy to have the words and more information. This is Mudcat at its best as far as I am concerned. Joe, thanks for starting this thread.

I found the song on emusic while searching for songs by Maddie Prior. A good example of treasures discovered quite by accident. Emusic now lists a version by Bram Taylor.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Dancing at Whitsun
From: Lord Batman's Kitchener
Date: 10 Jul 08 - 12:53 PM

This a very lovely song, my neice and I perform it on a regular basis. It has very deep meaning though, if performed on Rememberance Day (11th November)I must admit not having dry eyes.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Dancing at Whitsun
From: Fidjit
Date: 10 Jul 08 - 03:02 PM

Been in my song bag since '68. Although not at the top for a while now.

Although I dusted it off last week to sing in the Church concert I did last week.
Chas

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Dancing at Whitsun
From: Lord Batman's Kitchener
Date: 10 Jul 08 - 03:06 PM

We (my neice and I) perform it every Rememberance Day at our church, and as I said we perform it on a regular basis otherwise.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Dancing at Whitsun
From: Folkiedave
Date: 10 Jul 08 - 08:04 PM

And will be played tomorrow on my programme. As part of an interview with MArtyn Wyndham-Read and "Maypoles to Mistletoe".

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Dancing at Whitsun
From: GUEST,Songbird
Date: 11 Jul 08 - 03:02 AM

Please, what programme is this? Where? when etc.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Dancing at Whitsun
From: gnomad
Date: 11 Jul 08 - 03:22 AM

Songbird, I can't be sure, but I suspect that this thread is the answer to your query. I hope it helps.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Dancing at Whitsun
From: Folkiedave
Date: 11 Jul 08 - 04:43 PM

Hi Gnomad - that's it - comes towards the end of the first half - sung by Martyn Wyndham-Read. It is also on Crucible's latest CD "Love and Money".

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Dancing at Whitsun
From: Little Robyn
Date: 11 Jul 08 - 05:02 PM

Shirley's tune is The week before Easter. I've been searching the DT for the Copper family words but I can't believe they're not there.
Find them here on the Copper family
site. That's the way we always used to sing it.
Robyn

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Dancing at Whitsun
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 15 Jul 08 - 06:59 AM

Google Book Search indicates that the lyrics to DANCING AT WHITSUN are given in The Oxford Book of English Traditional Verse by Frederick Woods, 1983.

Only "snippets" are viewable, but it's enough to see that (1) the author's name is Austin John Marshall (NOT John Austin..., as frequently listed in this thread), and (2) the song begins "It's fifty-one springtimes since she was a bride".