Instruments that are REAL BUMMERS

Subject: Instruments that are REAL BUMMERS
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 02:11 AM

I have a question: What makes a particular instrument so awfully bad? For instance, a friend of mine picked up a D28 knockoff- pretty thing too. But it has no resonance, no heart, no soul A brother of mine who doesn't play anything picked up a guitar at a garage sale- same thing. I couldn't believe it-I immediately changed the strings on it but it made no difference, and I had to tell him it's not an instrument I would play.

A luthier told me that just because something is shaped like a fiddle, that doesn't make it a fiddle. OK, I can accept that certain wood is more responsive, resonant, whatever.

But when something is shaped like a particular instrument why doesn't it possess its qualities? The sound bounces around inside, doesn't it? And it should come out, shouldn't it? The instruments I'm talking about are essentially unplayable. Is there an answer that everyone knows but me?

Ebbie

Subject: RE: Instruments that are REAL BUMMERS
From:
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 02:29 AM

It seems to me you should ask what makes an instrument good. If you set an average person to work to make an instrument, I would think the chances were pretty high that it would be a bad instrument. Come to think of it: Given a bunch of monkeys with the right equipment, what is the probability they would assemble a Gibson L-0?

Murray

Subject: RE: Instruments that are REAL BUMMERS
From: kendall
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 08:15 AM

Two critical things..bracing and a solid soft wood face. Many cheap guitars are made of plywood and will never sound any better than they do new.

Subject: RE: Instruments that are REAL BUMMERS
From: Midchuck
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 08:50 AM

Steel string guitars, at least, are all compromises. A guitar built tough enough that you could take it anywhere and not worry about it would have no tone at all (certain older Guilds to the contrary notwithstanding) and a guitar braced as lightly as would be ideal for tone would collapse under the string tension not long after it was tuned to pitch (certain very old Martins to the contrary notwithstanding).

I think it was Gordon Bok who recounted trying to get the ideal tone in his 12-string by having a luthier lighten the braces again and again until it collapsed, then rebuild it with braces lightened to just short of the point that had caused the collapse.

Peter.

Subject: RE: Instruments that are REAL BUMMERS
From: catspaw49
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 09:43 AM

Gee, what a subject. First, wood selection is obviously important. We have run some threads discussing wood and their application and suitability to instrument making. Within these woods there are differing grades of quality based on different things for different woods. For example, maple (rock maple) is graded on both its hardness and pattern with a highly flamed or quilted piece being of a higher grade. In Spruce, the pattern and consistency are of equal importance in grading, and of course there is more than one type of spruce being used. Next, the question of cut and thickness enter in to the wood equation.

The design does differ some between makers. Not everyone uses the same bracing patterns and shifting the tone bar position or changing the bridge plate design results in a tone difference. Part of that design process also includes things like the thickness of a tone bar and is it shaved or scallopped in some manner. Then of course the basic shape enters into things too. Let's also note the difference in design and materials used in glues, saddles, nuts, bridge pins, fretboards, tuning machines and the like.

So let's make all those things equal and give the pieces to two or three different people to assemble. Outside of finish considerations, you may come up with three different sounding instruments. Sometimes even minor construction differences will affect the sound. Too much glue and shifting a bracing pattern by a sixteenth through carelessness will yield a different sound.

Then there is the way the instrument is finished. Again, there are many variables to be found. Then we get to set-up which can drastically change any instrument for better or for worse. PRobably the safest thing that can be said though is that you can't make a silk purse out of a cow's ear.

Awhile back, I got rid of a D-28 that was simply awful. No matter what I tried, it stunk. It improved some over the time I had it, but it was never a good sounding guitar. On the other hand, back in the 70's I bought (real cheap) one of the early Takemine D-18 rip-offs. From day one it sounded great and has improved with age. When I have made changes in saddles or something, it has generally improved and never gotten worse. In that time period, Takemine was doing what the Japanese often do best. They took a good guitar, the D-18 in this case, and frankly did a better job building it than Martin did. They used good woods and put them together better and more meticulously than Martin. Simple as that.

Helluva' subject here.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Instruments that are REAL BUMMERS
From: Bert
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 11:41 AM

Now don't go knocking plywood guitars. Plywood has allowed guitar makers to make guitars of fair, consistent quality at reasonable prices. I would never have considered buying a guitar in the first place if I'd had to pay the prices demanded of a 'named' guitar. Plywood has allowed many, if not most, beginners to get started.

And it's completely wrong to say they don't improve with age. My twenty year old plywood Yamaha has improved considerably over the years.

Bert.

Subject: RE: Instruments that are REAL BUMMERS
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 11:48 AM

Never give up on a stringed instrument until you have obtained an electronic tuner and have heard it played at the pitch (cycles per second) it's supposed to be played in.

The first time I tuned my guitar with a tuner, it was twice as loud and sounded better than it had ever sounded before. Now I would never use any other way to tune it, though I do check the octaves by ear as a final step.

Subject: RE: Instruments that are REAL BUMMERS
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 11:49 AM

More ignorance exposure: Does that mean that when a string is plucked or bowed in a substandard instrument, whether due to plywood or glue, non-optimum bracing, or whatever, that the sound gets trapped inside? We're all familiar with the wonderful feeling of a responsive instrument trembling in your arms resonating to a stroke. (Whew!) Does the instrument that thuds simply keep the sound inside? In other words, if we were of a size to crouch inside the soundhole, would the plucked/bowed sound of a new string be rich and full then go past us and thud?

Can a substandard instrument be brought to standard? Spaw, as an instrument builder, are you able to take a draft horse of an instrument and little by little turn it into a thoroughbred race horse, by tweaking it here, adding here, removing there, bracing here, moving it there? Can a plywood top, in theory, be thinned enough that it will resonate?

If money were no object, could a gorgeous-looking gift be turned into a prized instrument?

Ebbie

Subject: RE: Instruments that are REAL BUMMERS
From: Bert
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 12:04 PM

You can tweak a real cheapie sometimes. A lot of really cheap plywood tops are too lightly braced and vibrate too much. It is possible, sometimes, to add a few braces and make the thing playable. Now this is not necessarily going to be worth the effort from the point of view of adding value to the guitar, but it is a great learning experience that no tweaker or tinkerer should miss.

Bert.

Subject: RE: Instruments that are REAL BUMMERS
From: GUEST,Steve Beisser
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 12:27 PM

The real issue is whether a PERSON is truly channeling God's blessings through their music... I know people who can take a $20 student piece of plywood junk guitar and make the thing talk. I also know a brilliant songwriter who cannot come up with 3 chords in a row because he refuses to accept the fact that he is talented and just let God use his heart and mind to create. He writes occasionally, but when he is praised, he retreats and won't write again for weeks on end. The instrument really is secondary to the person... Remember, the muntain folk in Kentucky and the Carolinas played their music on home-made tin-pan banjos and cigar-box guitars for years before more affordable instruments were around.

Subject: RE: Instruments that are REAL BUMMERS
From: GUEST,Steve Beisser
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 12:28 PM

The real issue is whether a PERSON is truly channeling God's blessings through their music... I know people who can take a $20 student piece of plywood junk guitar and make the thing talk. I also know a brilliant songwriter who cannot come up with 3 chords in a row because he refuses to accept the fact that he is talented and just let God use his heart and mind to create. He writes occasionally, but when he is praised, he retreats and won't write again for weeks on end. The instrument really is secondary to the person... Remember, the muntain folk in Kentucky and the Carolinas played their music on home-made tin-pan banjos and cigar-box guitars for years before more affordable instruments were around.

Subject: RE: Instruments that are REAL BUMMERS
From: M.Ted
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 12:58 PM

And most all of them ditched the home-made instruments for good ones just as soon as they could get them. How about giving the instrument maker some credit for channelling God's blessings into their work?

Subject: RE: Instruments that are REAL BUMMERS
From: kendall
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 05:17 PM

Sorry Bert, your experience has been different from mine. I have never seen a plywood guitar that was good for more than kindling. All that glue burns HOT!!

Subject: RE: Instruments that are REAL BUMMERS
From: GUEST,Mark
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 05:22 PM

Since when were guitars the only instrument?

Subject: RE: Instruments that are REAL BUMMERS
From: catspaw49
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 05:25 PM

They aren't of course Mark and I tried to leave parts of my post open to other instruments as well. All those thing apply to Hammered Dulcimers as I know all too well. The original poster spkoke mainly of guitar, but bummers are out there in everything.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Instruments that are REAL BUMMERS
From: wysiwyg
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 05:28 PM

Oh dear. Hardi and I joke that those bad-sounding instruments are the ones where ya gotta fill them up with that expanding resin foam stuff, yup spray it right into the old soundhole, and then if the thing does not burst from overfilling (hee hee!) why then put a big ole pickup on it and whang away on it real good! Add distortion, why not??!!

Seriously, there are so many variables, all the things listed here probably pertain, and Steve B and MTed I count your posts too! Quit the either-or thinking PLEEZ!!! Try AND-AND! C'mon guys!!!

I have two little plucked psalteries. Same make, model, wood, strings... they sound different. And the one I left behind at the shop sounded awful. Sharp and harsh. Who knows. Just gotta try things out first I guess, like blue jeans that you never find two pair of that both fit perfect.

perfectly. of which you never find...

You know what I mean.

~S~

Subject: RE: Instruments that are REAL BUMMERS
From: Bert
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 06:02 PM

Ah yes, of course Spaw, I seem to recall a story about a certain courting dulcimer.

Kendal, you're just too picky.*BG*

Subject: RE: Instruments that are REAL BUMMERS
From:
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 06:16 PM

I have a great one and I have had the lousy ones. I would start off by saying that I agree with Kendall's observation on the plywood. In my experience with them, I may have had some that sounded OK, but never one that sounded great or even good. Sure, a talent like Rick Fielding or Kendall can make it sound as good as it is going to sound, but that isn't saying much. The one I had that I gave away still doesn't sound good today. BUT, I would point out that cost really isn't the determining factor. The oft discussed Seagull is a prime example of this. For about $300.00 you can get a sweet sounder, but play a number of them.

I can tell you that if you are talking about Uillean Pipe chanters, despite looking the same the sound is affected by a number of things. If it is not reeded properly you will have a problem. If you don't take into account the time of the year and weather conditions and adjust properly, that will cause a problem (amazing what the insertion of a bowed twist tie will do to airflow). Another thing on the pipe chanter that may cause a problem is if it has warped. This may not always mean the chanter is screwed but it can have a problem. If the builder wasn't meticulous on the tapered bore, again this is a problem.

Enough rambling.

Mick

Subject: RE: Instruments that are REAL BUMMERS
From: wysiwyg
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 06:21 PM

Bold lad there.

~S~

Subject: RE: Instruments that are REAL BUMMERS
From: catspaw49
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 07:01 PM

Well, that's Mick for you. But I'll take exception to the plywood stuff. First we say plywood, and some cheap stuf is made of it, but their is a difference between plywood and laminates which are used in instruments to good effect. Especially in the construction of instruments outside of guitars, laminates can offer som advantages. Laminated pin blocks are becoming the rule in a lot of Hammereds. And several of the guitar companies have built fine sounding instruments using laminated sides and backs. Laminates also offer more structural integrity than most woods and you might be quite surprised at the taptone. Before anyone condemns laminates, they need to do a blind listening test. NOI guys, but I think you might be quite surprised.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Instruments that are REAL BUMMERS
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 07:03 PM

i play a twenty five year old bodhran. oak and goat with dowel cross braceing bought in philadelphia. the drum bongs beautifully and responds well in all but the dampest weather. it has served me well. a friend bought a nice drum in ireland. goat skin and black laquer. pretty brass buttons holding down the goat skin. attractive on the wall but a thumping dud to play. she was so proud of it. "from IRELAND she proclaimed!" she claimed that i must have been doing something wrong when it just didn't resonate. sounded like i was playing it covered in a bag. no doubt i or any other drummer could give her a few good reasons why it wasn't a good drum. she just wouldn't understand. it was a pretty thing though. --kettlebelly

Subject: RE: Instruments that are REAL BUMMERS
From: Helen
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 07:08 PM

I had an Aoyama (Japanese) lever harp which sounded good to me when I first got it, until I heard other harps which were much better. It had a really dull sound, no resonance, no vibrance. It sounded a lot better with some really good strings but still not as good as the other ones.

The main problem was that it was braced with heavy metal pipes -aaaaaarrrrggghhhh!!! How could they?

It was designed as a cheap practice instrument for wannabe pedal harp/classical harp players, and these people tend to start playing as a child so it was small enough for a child to play. I never even gave it a backward glance when I sold it and I never regretted it later, and have been very very happy with the 36 string which was well designed. (I have procrastinated on getting good strings for the other little one to replace the tennis racquet strings (aaaaaarrrrggghhhh!!!) but now that my work situation is getting a bit more predictable I can get myself organised about that. I'll report back on whether that improves it's sound)

Helen

Subject: RE: Instruments that are REAL BUMMERS
From: Callie
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 07:24 PM

The baritone saxophone is - in itself - a real bummer, despite the fact that it's also one of the most beautiful instruments I've played.

It's a bummer because it's big and cumbersome (and impossible to carry over long distances), it's in Eb which makes it difficult to jam along and because they are soooo expensive that I can't afford one.

Callie

Subject: RE: Instruments that are REAL BUMMERS
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 08:17 PM

Guitars are a bummer because they are played so much. Penny-whisle is to loud and shrill. Mountain dulcimer is so soft, it is hard to hear when singing, and impossible to hear if any other instruments are nearby. Piano is too cumbersome to move, and the hammers strike with little or no tactile variation. Violins are difficult to listen to unless the player is already fairly good. Banjos are to good to be true, and if you turn your back on 'yours' for a minute it is likely to gather more.... Hammered dulcimers are too heavenly, and are difficult to play for fear of swooning.

'Spaw...? I need to make a HD that is solid as an ox, and I'm willing to sacrifice a little warmth of tone for durability. I'm set on rock maple or walnut for the frame, but you mentioned lamminates in a positive light. What would you suggest for top/back material, for someone who will be subjecting the poor thing to countless changes in hummidity/temp/impact. Gigantic regards, ttr

Subject: RE: Instruments that are REAL BUMMERS
From: Mbo
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 08:28 PM

I play several instruments: guitar, violin, recorder, pipe chanter, and harmonica, and none of them are bummers. I love musical instruments.

Subject: RE: Instruments that are REAL BUMMERS
From: Sorcha
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 09:10 PM

There is this soprano bouzouki on my wall. Has problems. Has 3 courses (6 strings) which is a problem. Frets too high. Bridge and nut both too high. No washers (?) on the tuning gears so it won't stay in tune. Lives on my wall. Is awful.

Subject: RE: Instruments that are REAL BUMMERS
From: Bugsy
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 09:31 PM

Ovation Guitars! If you are generous in the midsection, they keep sliding down your belly 'til you are playing them "Lapstyle".

Bloody horrible Plastic guitars!

Cheers

Bugsy

Subject: RE: Instruments that are REAL BUMMERS
From: ddw
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 10:46 PM

Yea, varily, Bugsy. Damned Thalidimide helicopters, if you ask me.

david

Subject: RE: Instruments that are REAL BUMMERS
From: Brendy
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 10:58 PM

Got to join in, there, on the anti-Ovation trip.

Gruesome things!

B.

Subject: RE: Instruments that are REAL BUMMERS
From: Ebbie
Date: 13 Sep 00 - 12:52 AM

At a jam session one night a new guy showed up with an Ovation. There's a certain gut aversion to them, isn't there. Gave me almost a feeling of embarrassment, as though it were unseemly. From what I heard of it, it really didn't sound bad but I wasn't even tempted to ask if I could play it.

I imagine ovation fans have to be fairly thick-skinned and have to learn to laugh at people's reactions.

Subject: RE: Instruments that are REAL BUMMERS
From: Lady McMoo
Date: 13 Sep 00 - 04:24 AM

A certain (variable) percentage of almost any type of instrument from almost any manufacturer for reasons I mentioned in the "Moderately priced guitars" thread! It's always VERY important to try and compare before buying to find what's right for you. You might end up paying considerably less for a much finer instrument.

Peace

mcmoo

Subject: RE: Instruments that are REAL BUMMERS
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 13 Sep 00 - 05:52 PM

"SPAW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

My previous post yearns for your thoughtful, Hardwoodery.

puleeeeeeeease????ttr

Subject: RE: Instruments that are REAL BUMMERS
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Sep 00 - 06:14 PM

but an Ovation can be used as a flotation device in case of a crash landing in water!

reminds me...many years ago, I went to Winfield..(threads running now) and they had a crafts show under the stands...and I saw a display of mountain dulcimers..beautiful ones! Georgeous woods, carved and poilished and lovingly shaped...until you tried to play one! NO tone...frets inaccurately placed...bridge too high..etc..truly "wall dulcimers"....I was so astounded I didn't even talk to the guy. (Wonder if he ever got any better? If they played as well as they looked, he'd be famous)

Subject: RE: Instruments that are REAL BUMMERS
From: Dee45
Date: 13 Sep 00 - 06:15 PM

It doesn't matter how much you spend whether on a cheapo or something high end. There are great, good, mediocre and real lemons guitars and instruments in general. An element of luck is always present for being in the right place at the right time to find something special.

I had bought new Martin OOO-28EC a couple of years ago, and although it played and sounded nice enough when I first got it, (in spite of keeping it a climate and humidity controlled environment) I started having a helluva time with the intonation and action shifting on me. Cure one thing and some other defect spun off. After several authorized warranty sitations at Martin's expense (though they were loathe to even use the word defective or lemon) I finally had my fill of the experience with this particular instrument. (The neck was defective.)

Knowing that there was good market for used ones (and that most people's ears weren't as sensitive as mine to intonation) I sold it privately for close to what I paid for it. (The "lucky" element at work here.) And then within a week of selling it, by sheer fluke and a tip from a fellow picker, I stumbled onto a 20 year old Martin M-38, which was in excellent condition, and plays, sounds and intonates like a dream, and, it was undervalued and underpriced. So a portion of the proceeds from the OOO-28 went towards the M-38. Best guitar exchange I ever made!

Sometimes though there aren't any silver linings. Rule of thumb for me is never bond or develop any kind of an emotional attachment to an instrument until I am supremely confident that it more than meets all of my criterion.

Subject: RE: Instruments that are REAL BUMMERS
From: oggie
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 09:54 AM

Everyone is using 'plywood' as if it is all the same, it isn't. Just like other woods plywood is graded and made from a range of timber. One crucial factor is the quality and consistency of the inner boards, if these are knotted, made of inferior wood, or have gaps in them then no matter how nice the outer looks the instrument is unlikely to sound properly.

For many years the best quality European plywood was Finnish and 'Birch throughout' and in the best grades relatively pricey. Russian ply is Birch faced but the interior wood is usually sub-standard, it is also a third the of the price if not less. The ravages of acid rain and the effect of Chernobyl have led to a reduction in the standard of some Finnish plywoods and the ply used in some mass produced instruments is not as good as twenty years ago. Cheaper instruments are built to a price specification and if the price of wood goes up either the instrument costs more or the price must also go up.

There is no easy way to check the interior of the plywood, in sheet form it's easier because you can check the edge for obvious faults. At the end of the day you can only play an instrument and make a judgement, and yes my guitar does have a plywood top and it does sound better today than it did 20 years ago but it was relatively expensive when I bought it.

All the best

Steve

Subject: RE: Instruments that are REAL BUMMERS
From: catspaw49
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 10:08 AM

Steve, I hope I didn't give you that impression as I tried to delineate that very thing. Thanks for the additional info though. And its true that Finnish Birch ain't what it used to be, but I'm still finding that its available from better suppliers in good quality. I would avoid any bought from the larger lumber and hardware dealers.

Also, if you are near a "Woodworker's Store" you can find some excellent, albeit pricey, hardwood plys and veneered plys.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Instruments that are REAL BUMMERS
From: GUEST,GospelPicker
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 10:17 AM

*********IF ANY OF YOU ARE LOOKING FOR A MANDOLIN, A REAL BEAUTY, I HAVE FOUND A MAN THAT MAKES THEM BY HAND IN LIMITED QUANTITIES FOR SEVENTY-FIVE TO MAYBE TWO HUNDRED BUCKS!!! I BOUGHT I=ONE, ALL HAND CARVED EVEN THE NECK AND THE ACTION IS SUPER EASY, IT TUNES PERFECTLY AND HAS THE NICE WOODY TONE OF A GIBSON... EMAIL ME AT [e-mail] AND I WILL GIVE YOU HIS CONTACT INFO. THESE ARE MANDOLINS THAT ARE NOT TO BE MISSED! HE SAYS HE BUILDS THEM CAUSE HE LOVES TO DO IT! I TRULY BELIEVE HE KNOWS THE MARKET VALUE OF A HANDCRAFTED INSTRUMENT AND JUST DOESN'T CARE!

Subject: RE: Instruments that are REAL BUMMERS
From: Jim the Bart
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 10:27 AM

Ovations are strictly utilitarian instruments - they work well if you're trying to imply an acoustic sound while playing with an electric band. They also project fairly well if you're flatpicking lead lines with a group.

I also used an early Takamine and agree with the quality that was built into that instrument. I had the same experience with an inexpensive Yamaha jumbo flattop. Neither instrument was going to improve much with age, and I eventually "traded up" to more expensive, though not necessarily more satisfying, intstruments.

In my opinion (and I don't really have any data to support this but it seems intuitively true), the difference between good sounding and poor sounding acoustic instruments is resonance. Whatever combination of materials (usually woods), glues, design (bracing) and finish that creates an instrument that resonates well will sound good. I have placed the word "woods" in parentheses because I have heard some beautiful sounding dobros that were all metal. I have also enjoyed the sound of Ovation guitars, which are well designed and often beautifully crafted, although they are only partially wood. There is also a graphite guitar out now - I believe it's from Rain Song Guitars - that sounds very nice. With good hard woods becoming harder to get, I believe that it's a good thing that people are trying to find suitable alternatives.

Preserve them there classic wooden instruments - someday they may be the exception rather than the rule.

Subject: RE: Instruments that are REAL BUMMERS
From: Kim C
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 10:28 AM

There's always "the touch of the master's hand" factor.

Subject: RE: Instruments that are REAL BUMMERS
From: catspaw49
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 10:37 AM

Bart......Liked your post. There are also quite a number of manufacturer's and private luthiers using "alternative" tonewoods with much success. I think we'll see more of that in the future and a lot of the acceptance of these instruments depends on the attitudes of the players out there.

I'm reminded of a story Rick told about being involved in a "sound test" at Mandolin Brothers. They had about a dozen (I think) guitars including Martin and Gibson and other big bucks pieces along with some less expensive guitars. They did a "blindfold" test first and then repeated it without the blindfolds (or backs turned). In the eyes open test, the Brazilian Martin and some other big bucks were the winners..........HOWEVER, in the blind test, the Yamaha won hands down. What can I say?

Spaw