NonM: US Patriotism -dead or only Rt?

Subject: NonM: US Patriotism -dead or only Rt?
From: katlaughing
Date: 24 Oct 00 - 01:42 AM

I heard snippets of an interesting discussion on NPR, which talked about patriotism in America. One panelist was calling for a return to patriotism. He listed various reasons why he thought this would be a good thing. It seemed to make sense, but I realised I'd had a knee-jerk reaction to it and wanted to see what you all think of it.

My reaction could be so strong because I've just spent 7 years living in ultra-conservative Wyoming. Anyway, I immediately felt defensive and thought to myself, "Yeah, sure, patriotism, these days you are only considered patriotic if you adhere to the tenets of the Far Right. They have co-opted patriotism."

Now, as I said, this could be a reaction to the majority of people I see around me who lead what I consider to be very conservative, sometimes extreme Right lives, proudly flying their flags and shooting off their fireworks and guns on the 4th of July; many of them I consider to be *closet racists*, but I also wonder if this might be the perception elsewhere.

How patriotic are you? How about your town, neighbourhood? Do you know *patriots* from both sides of the spectrum, left & right, and those points in between?

Thanks,

kat

Subject: RE: NonM: US Patriotism -dead or only Rt?
From: Ebbie
Date: 24 Oct 00 - 02:08 AM

When the flag goes by, I automatically come to attention, hand over heart. At the same time, I'm wary of jingoism. Ethnocentrism is scary. Borders are so manmade. Humans are so inclusive. And sometimes the two dichotomies are in conflict.

As for being 'proud' of my country, if I had nothing to do with it, I don't feel that pride on my part is appropriate. At the same time, when my country is verbally attacked or stereotyped, my hackles raise. As someone quoted Bush: I'm ambilavent.

Ebbie

Subject: RE: NonM: US Patriotism -dead or only Rt?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Oct 00 - 02:51 AM

The finest form of patriotism is this: patriotism to the planet Earth and the whole human race...and Mother Nature. Anything more narrow-minded than that leads to very serious trouble indeed, as history has shown.

If your US patriotism is in accord with the above larger picture, then all power to you.

If not, then you're falling into the "my country right or wrong" category...and that would be no small tragedy.

Get it right folks. Single-country patriotism is "the last refuge to which a scoundrel (or a fool) clings".

I am patriotic to Canada, but first of all to all humanity, and to the Earth Herself. That's more important than Canada alone. Way more important.

Subject: RE: NonM: US Patriotism -dead or only Rt?
From: Amergin
Date: 24 Oct 00 - 03:42 AM

What sort of patriotism are we talking about? Are we talking about loyalty to the government? Or loyalty to the country?

Amergin

Subject: RE: NonM: US Patriotism -dead or only Rt?
From: Auxiris
Date: 24 Oct 00 - 06:00 AM

Hello, everyone. Patriotism is defined in the outdated copy of Webster's dictionary that I just pulled out of the bookshelf as follows:
Patriot {fr. Gr, patris, fatherland}: one who loves and zealously supports his country.
I can go along with the part about loving my country, but I don't know if I can claim that I zealously support it, as I have chosen to live in France, a country that I also love. However, I have kept my American nationality instead of requesting French naturalisation, even though doing so would allow me to vote here in France. I am not French, after all and I feel that it would be like lying to claim that I am, even "on paper". Just doesn't seem right somehow.

I agree with you, Ebbie, it's hard to hear one's country verbally attacked or stereotyped (which is often the case over here) and it raises my hackles too. It's ever so difficult to remain silent in the face of deliberate and often cruel provocation.

I enjoyed reading what you wrote, Little Hawk. We all do have to live on the same planet together and while there's certainly nothing wrong with loving the country in which one was born, there's no reason we can't extend that love to include the rest of the Earth.

Is an American flag necessarily a more patriotic symbol than a blade of grass plucked from the Sleeping Bear Dunes, a pine cone gathered from the forest floor of Hartwick Pines or a petosky stone found on the shores of Lake Michigan?

Aux

Subject: RE: NonM: US Patriotism -dead or only Rt?
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Oct 00 - 06:45 AM

A friend of mine says that he isn't patriotic because he wouldn't die for his country. I would say I was quite patriotic because I am proud of my country, and I love it, but I wouldn't die for it. Does patriotism go that far?

Subject: RE: NonM: US Patriotism -dead or only Rt?
From: sian, west wales
Date: 24 Oct 00 - 07:31 AM

I'm Canadian and Welsh - and passionately both. The Welsh word for patriotic is gwladgarol ... loving the country. That I can do because effective love allows for constructive criticism. I also vote, and campaign for stuff that I believe in because being *gwladgarol" means pulling your finger out and working towards your vision.

By the way, GK Chesterton once wrote, "My Country, Right or Wrong" is like saying "My Mother, Drunk or Sober". True enough.

sian, west wales

Subject: RE: NonM: US Patriotism -dead or only Rt?
From: GUEST,Greg F.-remote location
Date: 24 Oct 00 - 07:52 AM

Kat, I think Carl Schurz had the best take on this one:

"My country, right or wrong: if right, to be kept right; if wrong, to be PUT right".

That keeps things in about the proper perspective.Its unfortunatly true that much of what passes for 'patriotism' today is, in fact, jingoism & worse.

Subject: RE: NonM: US Patriotism -dead or only Rt?
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 24 Oct 00 - 08:06 AM

I think it's possible to be a flaming liberal and still patriotic in this country (USA). I appreciate the democratic system in its ideal state, even though I'm aware enough to know that money can still buy more legislation than my vote can. But I'd rather be here than in Afghanistan, for instance. And I agree with Little Hawk that the planet comes first, then her creatures, and love of nation/state comes somewhat further down the list.

Subject: RE: NonM: US Patriotism -dead or only Rt?
From: catspaw49
Date: 24 Oct 00 - 09:11 AM

Its kind of amazing how some subjects, like this one, bring out the quotes isn't it? Not that people haven't given their own opinions, but notice that we have already had several quotes from Schurz, Chesterton, and Hawk's reference to the famous Johnson line. Nothing wrong with that of course, its just that some things tend to bring them out more than others. So why not continue?......

Hawk.....BTW, the cynical Ambrose Bierce, a good Ohio boy, once wrote that Johnson was a little off in his assessment and that patriotism is the first refuge......

To add one more to the mix, I've always been a fan of old Bertrand Russell who found patriotism to be "the willingness to kill and be killed for trivial reasons."

I also suggest that everyone read or listen to one of Lenny Bruce's routines about selling out your country. Its generally known as "The Hot Lead Enema" routine. Like much of Lenny's material, the humor was in the truth.

Spaw

Subject: RE: NonM: US Patriotism -dead or only Rt?
From: GUEST,Pete Peterson
Date: 24 Oct 00 - 09:25 AM

oh dear, and I have work to do today, but I can't resist. The best take on this IMHO was given by the late Robert Heinlein, who graduated from the US Naval Academy, was invalided out because of TB (about the same time it killed Jimmie Rodgers) and turned to writing because he had no other way to make a living. This is his argument, very briefly:
Patriotism is part of a hierarchy of moral behavior. I (RAH)will first define moral behavior as "behavior leading toward survival" and then remind you that we, as indivuduals, will die, but we as a species may not die; thus, moral behavior can be behavior leading toward our own survival, or that of our species.
The lowest form of moral behavior is by an individual who fights to stay alive.
The next is by a person who will fight for his family. Animals are capable of this level; this is the kind of moral behavior used by a five pound mother cat who drives a fifty pound dog away from her kittens.
The next level up is a person who will defend and fight his extended family, his tribe; all people known to him personally.
The next higher level is a person who will defend a group too large for him to know every member personally. We have a name for this; it is called "patriotism."
And a still higher level was shown by the astronauts and cosmonauts who have ventured into Space, for their loyalty promoted the survival of our whole species and not just one country.
That's Heinlein's argument. I go one step further and say that the highest level of moral behavior is behavior which helps the health of Gaia; our planet, considered as a whole organism.

Subject: RE: NonM: US Patriotism -dead or only Rt?
From: paddymac
Date: 24 Oct 00 - 09:48 AM

For most people, national identity, just like ethnic, racial and family identity, is an accident of birth. If you value those identities, you defend them; if you do not value them, your options are to either work to improve them or to seek whatever you think of as greener pastures somewhere else. Anything else is simple parasitism.

Many things go into that evaluation process, whether consciously or not. Certainly, things like learning, self-awareness, world-view, opportunity and economics are among those things. For most people, that evaluation process leads to some form of decency. For others, perhaps to hatred, bigotry, supression and oppression of others. They're all a part of the very imperfect human condition. But through all that, if you find nothing you would truly die for, then, in my vbiew, you're not really alive.

Subject: RE: NonM: US Patriotism -dead or only Rt?
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 24 Oct 00 - 10:26 AM

I've been hearing the same claptrap since the 60s when I first started to pay attention to the world I lived in. The complaints are never really about patriotism. They are always about expressions of patriotism. The complainer is always saying "I don't think you are patriotic because you do not say and do exactly the same things I say and do and/or because you say and do things I don't like." So, many years ago when I loved my country enough to work hard to try to make it better by making it a little more democratic, I was branded as unpatriotic for encouraging people to vote. Actually "unpatriotic" would've been a compliment compared to the other things I was called. As far as I can tell, Americans of all political persuasions love their country. They just have lots of different ways to express that love and are often uncomfortable with alternative expressions.

Subject: RE: NonM: US Patriotism -dead or only Rt?
From: Peter T.
Date: 24 Oct 00 - 10:31 AM

As a Gandhian, my loyalty is to the truth. But only a lot of struggle and grief can say what that is, and where it is located. Gandhians believe that "our side" is usually wrong: its only claims to our loyalty are that it sees itself as mostly wrong, and works to correct that; and temporarily thinks the "other side" is slighty more wrong. This may change as we struggle together towards the truth. The chances of us being right are almost vanishingly small: but that little chance is all we have any influence over. It is like panning for gold: we sift ourselves and our nations for the slightest glimmer that among the vast slurry of our stupidity, there might be something better -- a mother lode buried far upstream.

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: NonM: US Patriotism -dead or only Rt?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Oct 00 - 10:41 AM

False patriots like to think their country is perfect. They don't like to pay too much heed to the things that are wrong about it. They may even get angry when their attention is drawn to these.

True patriots know their country isn't perfect. They want to know about the things about it that need fixing. They may even get angry with the false patriots who think they don't need fixing.

And that applies at all levels of patriotism, from family to planet.

Tom Paine was a true patriot.

Subject: RE: NonM: US Patriotism -dead or only Rt?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Oct 00 - 11:16 AM

"As I went out one morning to breathe the air around Tom Paine's, I spied the fairest damsel that ever did walk in chains" - Dylan

Yes, remember Tom Paine and the Rights of Man. Patriotism does not stop at your borders nor bow to any one flag.

Bravo to all of you. Great stuff.

Subject: RE: NonM: US Patriotism -dead or only Rt?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 24 Oct 00 - 11:43 AM

One of my best friends considers patriotism the root of all evil. I wouldn't go that far...

I am GLAD I was lucky enough to have been born American. I have CHOSEN to live in the US as an adult. I am GLAD I made that choice. I think that the US has the potential to be really, really a wonderful place, everything that it was set up to be (in theory, not reality, of course!) - and I am saddened, daily, by the evidence that it isn't, yet. I think that the US has MORE of that potential right now than any other country. However, I wouldn't say I was PROUD to be American, I didn't ACCOMPLISH it. I am proud of a lot of what Americans, singly and in concert, have accomplished over the years. I am also thoroughly ashamed of a lot of it. I vote, and I think everyone else should too. I wouldn't trade my citizenship for that of any other nation. However, if Bush gets into the White House, I would consider handing in my passport - Can one be "stateless" these days? Or would I HAVE to accept citizenship somewhere else in order to give up being American? Anyone know that one?

Subject: RE: NonM: US Patriotism -dead or only Rt?
From: mousethief
Date: 24 Oct 00 - 12:20 PM

I love my country, and am happy to be an American, even though there is much room for improvement, and in my small way I try to do what I can to improve it.

I pretty much expect everybody to love their country, whatever country that may be, and be happy to be a citizen thereof, and do what they can to improve it. Although I realize some countries are very hard to live in right now because of things mostly beyond control of the "little people" like you and me.

Anyway I guess what I'm saying is, I think one can be patriotic without being either jingoistic or exclusionistic (or whatever the right word is there). Humanity is like a mosaic, and every piece in the mosaic is necessary and important and beautiful.

Except Canada, of course.

JUST KIDDING! Sheesh!

Alex
O..O
=o=

Subject: RE: NonM: US Patriotism -dead or only Rt?
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 24 Oct 00 - 12:41 PM

I guess I'm not very patriotic. My dad is VERY patriotic, and he's actually sort... a little left of center, I guess. Which is good.

But I don't feel any attachment or love for the USA. I sure as Hell wouldn't die for it. I WOULD die for Norway, or any of my other ancestral homelands. My family has only been HERE for 100-150 years, and they were THERE for millennia before they turned their backs on their cultures and became generic English-speaking Americans. If one of my ancestral homelands would have me (they wont ;) ), I'd go in a second...

Any blind Slovak women with really, really low standards looking to get married to a poor, moody, anti-ambitious American? ;)

---That unpatriotic bastard, Lepus Rex.

Subject: RE: NonM: US Patriotism -dead or only Rt?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 24 Oct 00 - 12:49 PM

Sit in a restaurant (preferably an open air one in a mall) in The U.S. with a couple of books on the table..say one by Rush Limbaugh, and the other by Pat Buchannan. I venture to say nobody will make a comment while passing by. Change the books to...say..Marx, and Ralph Nader. Ten to one you'll get a lot of comments (and maybe more) questioning your Patriotism. I kinda like the rare few people who think "Ahhh, that person is reading both sides of some issue, in order to make up their mind in an informed way. I've done it in the past and always was amazed at how few people could differentiate between "Patriotism" and narrow-mindedness. What makes me even sadder is that my friends on the left would feel the same way about even being "informed" on what Limbaugh, Buchannan, etc. have to say. Give me folks who'll constantly explore ALL sides (in an objective way) before voicing their own opinions.

Rick

Subject: RE: NonM: US Patriotism -dead or only Rt?
From: annamill
Date: 24 Oct 00 - 12:59 PM

Wow!

I may not agree with what you say, but I would die for your right to say it! I lean more toward the left even though I consider myself republican. I've considered myself patriotic since I can remember. The Star-spangled Banner (even if not MY choice) brings tears to my eyes.

Honor is a very important word to me. I didn't agree with the Vietnam War and disagree very much with my countrys choice to kill our boys for a government that was the same as our enemy. I was devestated by the Mi Lai (SP) killings. I was ashamed. It was NOT honorable.

I would die to protect my country's honor and freedom if it served a purpose. I have no fear of death at all, but I do fear losing my honor and I am my country.

Yeah, I guess you'd call me patriotic. ;-)

Love, annamill

Subject: RE: NonM: US Patriotism -dead or only Rt?
From: DougR
Date: 24 Oct 00 - 01:17 PM

Sorry to rain on Little Hawk's and those who agree with him's parade, but I for one owe my allegiance first to my country; not the earth. I am patriotic and I do love the United States. If I didn't, I'd move to Norway.

I side with Rick on hearing both sides.

DougR

Subject: RE: NonM: US Patriotism -dead or only Rt?
From: Ebbie
Date: 24 Oct 00 - 01:21 PM

Rick, I suspect your suggestion is rhetorical- because as a single person I have read in US malls and restaurants and libraries and park benches all my life with books of every conceivable persuasion piled and strewn about me.

I have never been accosted by a passerby in regard to books. The closest thing was once when I was at a bus stop a young man was walking by and in reaction to what I was reading- Notes to Myself- said, Great book, isn't it.

Are you thinking of Canadian response?

Ebbie

Subject: RE: NonM: US Patriotism -dead or only Rt?
From: Amergin
Date: 24 Oct 00 - 01:57 PM

I consider myself patriotic, for I do love my country, it is home. I just can't stand my money-grubbing government.

Subject: RE: NonM: US Patriotism -dead or only Rt?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 24 Oct 00 - 01:59 PM

Ebbie, actually it WAS in American malls (but mostly airports and train and bus stations) and yes I DID get comments...but as to Canadian (I'm one) response? What a laugh!! My countryfolk rarely seem to have opinions on anything other than vegetables...and certainly not politics or religion. Fortunately (or not) the Canadian contingent at Mudcat have definite opinions on EVERYTHING! Ha Ha!

Rick

Subject: RE: NonM: US Patriotism -dead or only Rt?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 24 Oct 00 - 02:22 PM

Oops, wanted to add something. Nuthin' new 'cause I've said it a number of times. I much prefer talking to folks who by observation and reading are not afraid to have their very core beliefs challenged. Lotta conservatives (and liberals) read ONLY material that either supports their position or voices the opposite side in a completely exaggerated way. My views are generally left wing, through a LOT of factors. Not the least of which is that I've had the time and luxury to be objective. I grew up liking to paint, draw, make music, with no fear of neighbours, cops, hunger or the overly religious. I felt lucky, so naturally I developed a lot of sympathy for those who had to struggle just to stay alive. Maybe if I'd "stayed there" I'd be a "non risk taking" liberal all my life. When I started reading about the ones like Victor jara, Che Guevara, and even Pete Seeger, who put a lot on the line for what they believed, I felt drawn to them. In later years when I saw that union and revolutionary politics could be JUST as vicious (and individually cruel and sadistic) as corporate and military ones, I became more cynical. A communist torturer and a Fascist torturer are all the same to me, even though they may have started out with totally different aims. I still believe strongly that we ARE our brother's keepers, but I see real kindness and incorruptability ONLY at a verrrry grass roots level.

This kind of attitude really messes up your "patriotism". I would surely risk my life for Heather, and might even risk it for my friends. But risk it for my country? If I wasn't in total agreement with their reasons for asking me to risk my life....not a chance!

Rick

Subject: RE: NonM: US Patriotism -dead or only Rt?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Oct 00 - 03:16 PM

I was watching a TV documentary about 1940 the other night, and they had this RAF pilot, who was 19 at the time, flying Spitfires, and he was reminiscing, and he said he hadn't really been fighting to protect his country, he was doing it to protect his mum.

Subject: RE: NonM: US Patriotism -dead or only Rt?
From: GUEST,Stackley
Date: 24 Oct 00 - 03:22 PM

You're not raining on anyone's parade, Dougie- you're just not that important!
Your sentiment is a bit refreshing, if true; conservative types ordinarily owe their primary allegiance to themselves, eclipsing all else.
And hate to disappoint you, but I doubt Norway would have you.

Subject: RE: NonM: US Patriotism -dead or only Rt?
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 24 Oct 00 - 03:32 PM

They won't have me either, the bastards...

Oh, and screw you, guest 'Stackley.' I usually disagree with Doug's politics, too, but at least he's man enough to speak his mind without deleting his cookie first. All you're proving is that you can't make an intelligent argument against him, and are too chickenshit to admit it.

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: NonM: US Patriotism -dead or only Rt?
From: DougR
Date: 24 Oct 00 - 04:05 PM

Lepus Rex: Candu snak norse (probably not spelled correctly).

DougR

Subject: RE: NonM: US Patriotism -dead or only Rt?
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 24 Oct 00 - 04:20 PM

Heh, nei, Doug. I wanna learn, though.

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: NonM: US Patriotism -dead or only Rt?
From: mousethief
Date: 24 Oct 00 - 04:27 PM

My sister was once bitten by a moose.

Alex
O..O
=o=

Subject: RE: NonM: US Patriotism -dead or only Rt?
From: Jim the Bart
Date: 24 Oct 00 - 04:27 PM

For a few seconds I liked the Heinlein quote that friend Peterson wrote, but. . .

There is, in my mind, a difference between the connection that I feel with my family and tribe (my friends) and my country. I have unconditional love for my children and wife. I will stand beside my friends through all kinds of stupidity and error, before I regretfully cut them loose.

My country and I have been at odds over lots of stuff. Doesn't mean I don't love it here, but I can see conditions under which I would have to leave it. I can not pledge myself to blatant and incessant stupidity, cruelty and absence of morality. When I see it I fight agin' it. Even when - or especially when - it is done to "further our national goals" or "work toward the betterment" of my country.

There are people and things worth dieing for. Probably even worth killing for. Defending one's borders is probably one of them (depending on the circumstances). Extending your nation's sphere of influence is not.

What, during the rise of the Reich, was the German patriot to do? What, after the establishment of the Reich as the legitimate German government, was a German patriot to do? If one was to see direct parallels in America today, what is an American patriot to do? I ask this question of everyone here, but I will direct it to Doug, out of respect for him and for what I consider to be his genuinely thoughtful nature. Doug, what as a patriot would you do?

Subject: RE: NonM: US Patriotism -dead or only Rt?
From: GUEST,Stackley
Date: 24 Oct 00 - 06:37 PM

Geez, Rabbit King- or is that Emperor Lagomorph?- no cookie to delete, not being one of the "Inner Circle".(Bad, Boys, Bad Boys,Watcha Gonna Doo?) You got a secret handshake too?
I'm just following Dougie's example of all opinion/no facts. Seems to work for him with no complaints, so why give me hell about it?
Cheers.

Subject: RE: NonM: US Patriotism -dead or only Rt?
From: Bert
Date: 24 Oct 00 - 07:32 PM

Way to go Annmill, I see patriotism as loyalty to my family, friends and neighbors.

here's a song

Subject: RE: NonM: US Patriotism -dead or only Rt?
From: Hotspur
Date: 24 Oct 00 - 07:55 PM

My friend Ula, who's from Poland, commented once while she was viviting that Americans seem to love to display flags and patriotic "stuff"--bunting, I Love the US stickers, etc. She said they don't do that in Poland. She also was surprised at how varied people were, for example when I told her about going to a friend's Bat Mitzvah. In her experience, minority groups keep to themselves. I'd never thought about it before, but at least around here, minority groups seem to shout their presence from the rooftops...

So, am I patriotic? Well, yes. I love living in the US. One of the things I like about it is how often people argue about issues! I like free speech and free press, and the right to call the President, or anyone, a bleepin' SOB if you feel like it. I don't think you have to believe your country is perfect to be patriotic. I don't think you even have to believe it is the best. To me, a true patriot is someone who loves what is good about his/her country, and cares enough about the country to try to change what is bad.

Subject: RE: NonM: US Patriotism -dead or only Rt?
From: GUEST,mousethief (at the library)
Date: 24 Oct 00 - 07:57 PM

Hotspur, you're right on my wavelength!

Alex
O..O
=o=

Subject: RE: NonM: US Patriotism -dead or only Rt?
From: Ebbie
Date: 24 Oct 00 - 11:22 PM

One of the things I love my country for is the real urge we have to want to be better. I've read that the US standard, Oh, Beautiful, for Spacious Skies, (Can't think of the actual title!) is perhaps the only national song in the world that addresses or even admits non-perfection, ie, "God mend thine every flaw."

I too have a wide circle of friends from around the world and to me it appears that the US is pretty much alone in its attitude. I have a Polish friend who can't imagine a non-acrimonious divorce, for instance. "But he was bad for you", she cries. "Why do you want him to be happy?"

I think the mix of nationalities and cultures we have in this country has made us unique and strong. Governments come and governments go but I have a lot of hope for us. I think we are more aware and concerned, as a society, than we have been in a long time and that may yet be our salvation.

Ebbie

Subject: RE: NonM: US Patriotism -dead or only Rt?
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 25 Oct 00 - 12:45 AM

Guest 'Stackley,' your entire posting history is Doug flames. You've posted 6 times in the last three days, each time attacking the same person. And my point again is this: Whether you're a real guest or not, you've created this 'Stackley' persona for one purpose: to harrass a particular member. You know you've got no reputation to worry about, because you don't 'exist.'

Why not become a member, or at least dedicate your lame self to one guest nickname, and actually argue with Doug on the issues you disagree with him on? I know you get a sad little thrill when you type in some witty insult, press 'submit,' and watch us all shake our fists at... no-one! You've disappeared, without a trace, you enigma you! Ooh, you're mysterious. Is that the only power you have in your life? "I can make people angry, and they can't kick my ass, like they do daily in real life! I'm the puppetmaster! Muahahahaha!" I mean, really.

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: NonM: US Patriotism -dead or only Rt?
From: GUEST,steve
Date: 25 Oct 00 - 07:24 AM

the problem for many americans is who are you? irish american(mainly protestants but still coughing up for the cause?) italian american ( still watching 'the soprano's and wishing?) afro-american( still bemoaning your lot as if whining will set you free?) the nation was forged from a true-hearted rebellion against tyranny and all who swear allegiance to the ideals of freedom of worship association etc.free speech should embrace what the nation has stood for over time. sadly no representative of "the people " will become president only the members of the club( dem/rep )who sell out to big business will get to the White house this is an issue for you americans to chew over

Subject: RE: NonM: US Patriotism -dead or only Rt?
From: GUEST,Stackley
Date: 25 Oct 00 - 08:14 AM

Easy, Lagomorph! You'll hurt yourself! Or are you projecting your persona/motives onto me?
Don't think I'm being any harder on Dougie & K-K-Karlin than they are on folks they disagree with. And the identity question is nugatory anyway- how do you know that "Doug" isn't a communist bisexual woman who's been putting you all on for months? Or that I'm K-K-Karlin? Get real.
Cheers.

Subject: RE: NonM: US Patriotism -dead or only Rt?
From: DougR
Date: 25 Oct 00 - 01:06 PM

Bart: Good question. Personally I don't see parallels between Nazi Germany and the United States of today, but I guess many Americans did during the Viet Nam war. Many young men escaped to foreign countries rather than serve in our armed forces. I was not in sympathy with those young men even though I was not a strong supporter of our involvement in Viet Nam. So, I guess were it 1938 rather than 2000, and I lived in Germany I would have fought in the German Army rather than escape to another country. Actually, that probably would not have been an option anyway. I would imagine the German young men had little choice in the matter. Not all German soldiers were Nazi though, as I'm sure you know.

Lepus Rex, thanks for the intevention, but it will do no good. Guest Stackley gets his kicks flaming, and I say let him flame.

DougR

Subject: RE: NonM: US Patriotism -dead or only Rt?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Oct 00 - 03:16 PM

Hi Doug,

Well, sad to say, most of the young German men were fooled by their government's propaganda most of the time. That's what usually happens. As the whole deck of cards fell apart in 1944 and 1945, many of them became disillusioned, however. Some were only too eager to surrender to the Western Allies (but NOT the Russians), while others remained patriotic to their governing system to the bitter end. Nothing unusual about it at all. It has happened again and again throughout history. The only unusual thing was the particularly vicious policy of the Nazi government toward Jews, Gypsies, and other specific groups of people.

Most of the German soldiers were too busy dealing with what was right in front of their noses all the time (a charging T-34 tank or a strafing P-51 Mustang), so I doubt that they gave it much thought...until the fighting was over. In the end most, I'm sure, deeply regretted ever having put their faith in the Nazi Party, and bozos like Goering, and Himmler, to name a couple...or an emotionally disturbed demagogue like Hitler.

Rick - you make very good points. People who are leftists by nature should indeed investigate books and other info from the opposing side. Right wingers should take time to read the views of the left. If so, both would find out that the other guys do have some genuinely high ideals and some genuinely useful ideas. Well said.

Hey, Stackley...I think Communist, bisexual women are probably fairly rare on Mudcat...but, well, not as rare as divorced ex-Catholic Rumanian leftists from Truro who venerate Mussolini...so...yes, we should all take care before jumping to conclusions, shouldn't we? :-D

Actually, Doug is a nice guy, y' know. Albeit he is kinda conservative...but that's what keeps it all interesting. So be glad he's here. It would be boring if we all agreed on everything.

Subject: RE: NonM: US Patriotism -dead or only Rt?
From: Ebbie
Date: 25 Oct 00 - 04:18 PM

For a number of years I went out with a German who'd been captured by the Americans in a French vineyard at the age of 19. But that's another tale.

In Germany during the war, his father had a shop where some prisoners of war worked. They went back to the POW compound daily, but often my friend's father brought a prisoner or two home for dinner. Pierre, a young French POW, was a frequent guest.

When my friend was aged 11-14 he belonged to the Hitler Youth and he was very proud of his uniform. Once a week he dressed carefully and strutted off to the meeting. However, he had to walk past the POW compound and invariably Pierre was outdoors to see him go by.

Pierre would snap to attention, shoot out his arm and bellow, SHEISS HITLER.

Ebbie

Subject: RE: NonM: US Patriotism -dead or only Rt?
From: DougR
Date: 25 Oct 00 - 05:33 PM

Ebbie: that's a good story. DougR

Subject: RE: NonM: US Patriotism -dead or only Rt?
From: Hotspur
Date: 25 Oct 00 - 06:29 PM

The movie Swing Kids has a very interesting/scary portrayal of how the Hitler Youth org. convinced young Germans that Hitler's ideals were, well, ideal. Actually, it's probably easier to make kids believe what you want, b/c that's how school works, at least in this country. It's not until college that they start urging you to think for yourself. For some people, by then it's too late, they're too used to being told what to think.

Hotspur (who as a kid refused to be intellectually beaten into submission, and therefore got into lots of trouble!)

Subject: RE: NonM: US Patriotism -dead or only Rt?
From: mousethief
Date: 25 Oct 00 - 06:31 PM

Read "The Wave" for an example of how this could happen in the USA. It's a very-slightly fictionalized account of something that really happened in a California town....

Alex
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