Origins: The Waters of Tyne

Subject: The Water of Tyne
From: GUEST,John in Brisbane
Date: 29 Nov 00 - 06:35 AM

With the Forum Search down I'm just trying to establish in anyone has previously posted lyrics or tune for The Water of Tyne. The only provenance I have is that it was published in 'Songs of the Women of Britain' arranged by Elizabeth Poston.

Alternatively please if someone has the URL for the Newcastle Songs site, that would be a great help.

Regards, John

Subject: RE: Help: The Water of Tyne
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 29 Nov 00 - 06:53 AM

On the DT:  Waters of Tyne,  with tune, taken from revival recording(s).  The song was first published with tune in Bruce and Stokoe's Northumbrian Minstrelsy (1882).

Malcolm

Subject: RE: Help: The Water of Tyne
From: Wolfgang
Date: 29 Nov 00 - 06:54 AM

John,

Newcastle songs (I guess that's the one)

how still to use supersearch (enter there 'Waters of Tyne' for several hits both in the DT and the Forum)

cheers Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Help: The Water of Tyne
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 29 Nov 00 - 06:08 PM

"The Water of Tyne" first appeared with music in 'Northumbrian Minstrelsy', 1881, but without music it appeared in Bell's 'Rhymes of the Northern Bards', 1812, 'Universal Songster', III, 1828, Cuthbert Sharp's 'Bishopric Garland', 1834, and probably elsewhere.

Subject: RE: Help: The Water of Tyne
From: John in Brisbane
Date: 29 Nov 00 - 07:24 PM

Thanks everybody, the collection of links above is just fabulous. I thought it was too good a song not to be in the DT, but had failed to find it in the off-line version - my stupidity.

Many thanks, John

Subject: RE: Help: The Water of Tyne
From: GUEST,KSlate
Date: 30 Nov 02 - 02:53 PM

We are singing this song in choir and I was only curious as to what "hinny" meant. It seems to me that this song is either about a woman who has lost her love to death or has been put on the other side of the Tyne where she cannot swim across. If any one can tell me the answers to my question, my e-mail address is [e-mail]
Thanks

Subject: RE: Help: The Water of Tyne
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan
Date: 30 Nov 02 - 04:25 PM

One definiton found on-line:

Hinny, pet - Geordie terms of endearment: e.g., friend, dear, darling

"Geordie" covers an area in the North East of England which I won't attempt to define too closely for fear of starting another flame war....!

Regards

Subject: RE: Help: The Water of Tyne
From: Santa
Date: 30 Nov 02 - 05:13 PM

"My bonny hinny" would be his/her pretty boy/girlfriend, OK?

The song is simply about two lovers separated by a piece of water - don't know where all this bit about death comes in.

Incidentally, singing hinnies are a kind of fruit cake/pancake, not my wife at the Waterson/Carthy songfest today.

Despite what you may read in song reviews, Jez Lowe is not a geordie, OK?

Subject: RE: Help: The Water of Tyne
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 30 Nov 02 - 06:30 PM

The "death" business would be a misunderstanding of I cannot get to my love if I would dee, I expect. It's a construction that's not all that obvious to people who aren't used to it, and who may not realise that it just means something like I cannot get to my love for the life of me, or I cannot get to my love however hard I try; that sort of thing.

"Hinny" is just a Northern English dialectal form of honey.

Subject: RE: Help: The Water of Tyne
From: GUEST,KSlate
Date: 30 Nov 02 - 09:53 PM

Thank you all very much!

Subject: RE: Help: The Water of Tyne
From: GUEST,NSC George Henderson
Date: 01 Dec 02 - 04:41 PM

Malcolm,

Hinny is not a dialect form of honey. It is a term of endearment which, in certain circumstances, can be used male to male or female to female, withotu the necessity of either party being gay. It si hard to describe but, depending on who you are talking about it can mean friend, girlfriend, wife, husband, or even someone you do not know.

George (Geordie) Henderson

Subject: RE: Help: The Water of Tyne
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 01 Dec 02 - 05:18 PM

That wasn't my personal opinion, but the considered assessment of Chambers' 20th Century Dictionary. That's the only one I have to hand at home, but I doubt if any of the major dictionaries would tell you anything significantly different. 19th century publications containing NE dialect spell the word hinny about half the time, and honey the rest.

Don't allow the fact that honey has acquired a narrower meaning since then to confuse you: hinny is a dialectal form of that word, and like many dialectal forms has retained an older, more general sense. We shouldn't try to re-invent linguistic history in order to make the past conform to the preconceptions of the present.%-)

Subject: RE: Help: The Water of Tyne
From: smallpiper
Date: 01 Dec 02 - 08:20 PM

Chambers' 20th Century Dictionary was written by a southern pansy so what would he know I'm with Geordie Henderson on this one.

Subject: RE: Help: The Water of Tyne
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Dec 02 - 05:10 AM

The Geordie word "Hinny" originally meant "Lass" from the Norse word "henne" meaning a "she", simialrly in the borders of Scotland a woman is referred to as "hen", in the north-east of Scotland they refer to a woman as a "Quine" a corruption of the norse word "kvinne".

In dialect both areas of the British Isles have many old norse words still in common usage: "Tau" - a rope; Geordies to this day still say that they are "Gangin' Hjem" when they are going home; both the Scots and the Geordies refer to their children as "bairns".

Subject: RE: Help: The Water of Tyne
From: GUEST,NSC Geordie Henderson
Date: 02 Dec 02 - 07:19 AM

Thanks for the support smallpiper

And Teribus- Thanks for the explanations. I knew that a lot of Geordie words are found in Norway/Denmark.

It has often been said that a Geordie can make himself understood in Norway.

The Geordie docker once yelled to a Norwegian skipper on a boat leaving the Tyne "Where ye gannin" and the skipper replied "Aa'm gannin yem"

But nivvor mind hinnies, we Knaa we are reet.

Hadaway and enjoy yersels noo.

Subject: RE: Help: The Water of Tyne
From: Santa
Date: 04 Dec 02 - 04:44 PM

I would be more convinced that hinney = honey if those in the North-East pronounced Honey that way - but they don't. Or didn't when I was there....not 19th century, I grant you.
Honey = hunney (or something like.)

Surely only Americans call their girlfriends "honey"? I'd have got a sharp dig in the ribs had I tried that out!

Subject: RE: Help: The Water of Tyne
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 06:45 PM

I am trying to find some historical information on this song and I can't find where and when it was written. Do any of you have a good website to find this information?

Subject: RE: Help: The Water of Tyne
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 07:18 PM

There isn't one. Author is unknown, but it evidently belongs to the North East of England, and apparently first appeared in print in the late 18th century (1793 according to Roy Palmer, but he doesn't say where). The first record of a tune for it that we have is 1882, as mentioned earlier.

Subject: RE: Help: The Water of Tyne
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 04:24 PM

Jez is from Easington. I suppose you'd have to define "Geordie' to exclude or include him.

Subject: RE: Help: The Water of Tyne
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 04:45 PM

Not that either Malcolm or Chamber's Dictionary generally need much backing up, but the 12 volume Oxford English Dictionary from 1928 says, quite simply "Hinny, hinnie, Sc and north. form of Honey."

Subject: RE: The Water of Tyne
From: GUEST,Van
Date: 17 Mar 04 - 03:24 PM

Smallpiper,

"Chamber's 20th century dictionery was written by a southern pansy" Since it was published in Edinburgh, and Chambers are an Edinburgh publisher I doubt it.

Subject: RE: The Water of Tyne
From: GUEST,Van
Date: 17 Mar 04 - 03:30 PM

Newcastle - well southern. Best of luck with your pansies.

Subject: RE: The Water of Tyne
From: Cattail
Date: 26 Mar 04 - 08:12 PM

For information, a record of Tyneside songs by Michael Hunt, has the
sleeve notes "The ferry is believed to be that at Haughton Castle on
the North Tyne.

Cheers.

Cattail

Subject: RE: The Water of Tyne
From: Santa
Date: 27 Mar 04 - 07:31 AM

Jez is quite clear himself that he is not a Geordie, or at least that his accent isn't Geordie. At least among those who appreciate the distinction.

I wouldn't care to be too precise about definitions myself, but a Geordie comes from around the city of Newcastle on the north bank of the River Tyne, and the town of Gateshead on the south bank.

Jez comes from the South-west Durham coalfield area, and hence would be a pityacker, in the terminology I'm familiar with. (pit = mine, Yacker = talker).

I was born in Newcastle, and brought up in the SW Durham coalfield. I say I'm a Geordie for the ease of it, living amongst all these Southerners in Lancashire. But am I really? Go figure.

Subject: RE: The Water of Tyne
From: bridgee
Date: 27 Mar 04 - 03:35 PM

The words as written in Allans Tyneside Songs - 1862, don't use HINNY but Honey as it rhymes with money. The song was acreditted to that famous north east writer, unknown.

Subject: RE: The Water of Tyne
From: GUEST,julia
Date: 27 Mar 04 - 08:06 PM

Love this song- have sung it for years
Regarding the use of "hinny" by men to each other, I have heard fishermen here on the Maine coast call each other "sweetheart"....
I think people get the "death" interpretation form the old symbolism of the ferry to the Otherworld
best- Julia

Subject: RE: The Water of Tyne
From: GUEST,Ruthie, formerly from Newcastle now in Canad
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 12:18 AM

I was looking for the words to the song, have a few British folk song books, and a couple of Geordie ones an' all, but no Waters of Tyne! The first link I clicked on had the link to here, and it says there:

[1979:] This exquisite lament was first published in 1793. The tune was taken down almost a century later from an old man at Hexham, Northumberland. (Palmer, Country 143)
The first link is here:
http://www.mysongbook.de/msb/songs/w/watersof.html

By the way, I'd go with the Scandinavian origin for hinny, despite what it says in the dictionary. It's not only the North that has Scandinavian words which beat out the Anglo-Saxon ones, even EGGS is from the Norse, as is, I believe, window, from "wind's eye."
Not to get pedantic however, where does the endearment 'pet' come from. ;-)

Subject: RE: The Water of Tyne
From: The Villan
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 01:03 AM

Where is Folkiedave when you need him. He has probably got some book or other that explains it all.

I like Bob Fox's version of this song.

I also like Judy Dinnings version Judy Dinning - Water Of Tyne It is the third song on the right of the webpage.

Subject: RE: The Water of Tyne
From: Colin Randall
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 01:12 AM

Sorry to get parochial, but East is East, even in county terms. If TheBigPinkLad is right to say Jez comes from Easington, Santa is a bit out to say he "comes from the South-west Durham coalfield area". As an East Durham lad, he's not a Geordie either. He could be a Mackem if you extend the definition beyond Wearside, using vowel sounds rather than shipyard usage as the deciding factor, but that usually implies support for Sunderland AFC and I recall a delicious line in one of his songs declaring allegiance to Hartlepool.