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Murdered songs
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Subject: Murdered songs From: Hawker Date: 19 Feb 01 - 03:33 PM You know what I am talking about...... In the folk club or sing around, all is going well, great atmosphere, plethora of talent then up stands the murderer....... At the end all clap politely and we all know what they are really thinking - and why is it always a beautiful song that is massacred? A friend once sent me a poem - I apologise for not knowing the name of the author, but it went something like........
There was a man with a tongue of wood I like this and when I hear a murdered song I think of that poem. The real crux of this thread - (sorry, took too long to get here!) is..... What song do you most often hear murdered? For me it has to be 'She moves through the fair' and 'Carrickfergus' Keep on singing, tongue of wood or not, practise makes perfect! Lucy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Murdered songs From: Pseudolus Date: 19 Feb 01 - 03:43 PM I don't think I have a specific song but when it's a favorite that gets murdered, it's difficult. I've never performed "White Squall" but lately have heard it murdered twice!!! I've learned it and in fact plan on singing it this weekend in Wilmington, Delaware's O'Friel's Irish Pub on Friday and Saturday from 9:00 to 1:00 (just in case you're in town!!) but I digress...... In any case, I've decided if it's gonna get murdered, I'm gonna do the deed myself!! Frank |
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Subject: RE: BS: Murdered songs From: Clinton Hammond Date: 19 Feb 01 - 03:48 PM I'm the last one to cast dispersions.. especially when someone who sings and plays simply for the love of it is singing and playing... For instance... on some of the fan-geek MB's I visit they encourage fan-stories... Now I used to breeze into those threads with my red pen from years of being an English major with a specialisation in genre writing. (fantasy, horror, speculative fiction) To be quite frank, most of it was pretty awful!! The hue and cry that went up was that these people were just doing it for fun, that was all... so they were content to leave well enough alone, and I was content to leave them alone... Same with the folk club... I've seen some gods awful stuff go on at the coffee house open stage , or at a session and such like... but who cares?!?! At the very least one can always say to the 'butcher', "I like your selection of music." So even if the guy (or gal) playing is butchering a song, at least they are playing, making music, doing something they love eh! ;-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Murdered songs From: Gray Rooster Date: 19 Feb 01 - 03:48 PM I don't think anyone has ever not murdered a song. Then again, not many have gotten away with it either. It is part of the process. We all start somwhere and living through the mistakes are part of it. Me? I've murdered 1000's and I'm with Frank. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Murdered songs From: Kim C Date: 19 Feb 01 - 03:55 PM Well said, Clinton. I too am guilty of murder but let me tell you I did it with a sincere heart. ;) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Murdered songs From: Hawker Date: 19 Feb 01 - 04:03 PM I agree with all the comments, I too have been guilty of murder, I am not saying that they shouldn't sing - as the poem says - but I have a list of songs that now make me flinch when they are introduced - incase the murderer is about! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Murdered songs From: Sorcha Date: 19 Feb 01 - 04:03 PM "Danny Boy" is fixing to get murdered once again......only about 3 more weeks, folks. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Murdered songs From: Amos Date: 19 Feb 01 - 04:05 PM Clinton: As an English major, you should specify in what denomination you will be casting those "dispersions" -- I'd like mine in unmarked $20's, if you can manage it! :>) On the other hand, if you're casting aspersions, I'll take the tongue-in-the-cheelk variety. Regards, A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Murdered songs From: Clinton Hammond Date: 19 Feb 01 - 04:11 PM oops... sorry... not enough java yet... the fingers don't pay attention to the signals from the brain... LOL!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Murdered songs From: Pseudolus Date: 19 Feb 01 - 04:11 PM busted........ lol Frank |
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Subject: RE: BS: Murdered songs From: Sorcha Date: 19 Feb 01 - 04:49 PM Long Black Veil, Lord Randall, oh, wrong thread? Sorry. Watch out for Achy Breaky Heart, tho. Murdered regularly! (but it weren't a great song to begin with!) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Murdered songs From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 19 Feb 01 - 05:25 PM You can't murder a song. No matter how badly you sing it, it's still there to be picked up and dusted down and sent on its travels again.
That's pedantic, I know. But the underlying meaning is, good songs are tough. We don't have to feel protective about them.
There are some rotten singers around, and we've all been among them. Mostly it's nerves and inexperience. Hear the same singer a few weeks later, and they're not bad at all. There are some people who stay rotten singers, but lose the nerves. There they are, fully confident that they are really good - and those are the tricky ones. (And some nights that's probably most of us as well.)
But it also happens that people can dismiss as "rotten singers" people who in fact are very well worth listening to. There are aspects of many traditional styles of singing that can be heard as "rotten singing". I've come across people disparaging singers who are outstandingly good, because they don't happen to sing in a style that the listeners are accustomed to, or that is customary with the song they are singing. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Murdered songs From: Hawker Date: 19 Feb 01 - 05:32 PM Hear hear, and that is another thing isn't it, when you sing a song and some clever dick says "You actually sang that wrong".... Errr well excuse me! If you adhere to the aural tradition of "folk" songs, then all songs have evolved into what they are today, and are constantly changing - the way you sing a song depends on who you learned it from, murderer or not, and the words may feel better with a slight tweak. What I am actually doing is singing it different - MY WAY! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Murdered songs From: Hawker Date: 19 Feb 01 - 06:55 PM Sweeny Todd here!!!! well guess what, went into Paltalk snug and..... MURDERED one of my favourite songs ....sooooh sorry Mr Blacksmith! MUST DO BETTER!!!! Trust me to do that on the nite I started this thread!!!!! LOL Lucy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Murdered songs From: Ebbie Date: 19 Feb 01 - 07:07 PM Sometimes I cringe at a murdered song because of lyrics the singer learned in such a way that the words don't make sense and has not bothered to look at it. Pedantic or not, I like a song to tell of an event or coherent emotion. It jars to realize that the singer is unaware of the story being told. For instance, the song 'When It's Lamplighting Time in the Valley' sets up as its premise that the person can't return home to Mother because of a crime he committed. (It doesn't address whether he is incarcerated or a fugitive.) The line is "For she knows not the crime I have done"; I know a man who sings it "For she knows of the crime I have done". If she knows, why is she waiting? This kind of thing happens quite often- and I've never learned to keep my mouth shut. It bothers me a whole lot more than timid, wandering, uncertain notes. Ebbie |
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Subject: RE: BS: Murdered songs From: SINSULL Date: 19 Feb 01 - 07:19 PM I don't believe in the murdered song when I haven't paid for the performance. If someone is willing to get up and sing a song that has meaning to them and my only job is to listen, I am grateful. Performing in public comes easy to some. To me it is traumatic. I respect the courage it took for non-professional to be willing to share. When I have paid for entertainment and get a fifth-rate screw you performance, I won't be rude but I will not applaud and am apt to sit there with a look capable of wilting fresh roses. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Murdered songs From: Bugsy Date: 19 Feb 01 - 07:56 PM "The Band Played Waltzing Matilda". Cheers Bugsy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Murdered songs From: Bill D Date: 19 Feb 01 - 09:37 PM there are poor singers who just can't 'do' it too well...these I can tolerate and forgive..and even enjoy the spirit. I do suffer though when someone totally corrupts a perfectly good song just because they want to be different. Today on the radio, I heard some bluegrass band do "Goodnight Irene" !!!....complete with wild Mandolin break and gratuitous alteration of the basic tune. There is NO good excuse for that.. There is a woman..perfectly FINE musician (Kathy Fink) who, a few years ago recorded something called "Wildwood Flower Revisited"..sort of 'fantasy & variations' on a classic tune..I know others will disagree with me, but THAT is the kind of butchery and murder which upsets me... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Murdered songs From: GUEST,CraigS Date: 19 Feb 01 - 09:47 PM Sometimes you live with it because we've all got to start somewhere, but we've got a guy who doesn't rehearse enough and then comes down to our club to try out a new song. If he fluffs it, forgets the words, or anything, he either takes a tin whistle out and plays the Star of the County Down or sings Willie McBride, both of which we're sick of hearing by now| On a bad night he performs one before he starts into his new song, then does it again when the new song breaks up. Incidentally, he has a psychology degree, which apparently qualifies him to ignore everyone else's opinions on the subject. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Murdered songs From: Mrrzy Date: 20 Feb 01 - 09:52 AM Pet peeve: people who want to impress their own style on either the National Anthem or America the Beautiful at sporting events. Sorry, some songs should be sung "properly" (ducking)! However, because of my way of learning songs (akin to a download, someone once said) - any version that isn't exactly faithful to the original tends to sound murdered to me at first. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Murdered songs From: KingBrilliant Date: 20 Feb 01 - 10:06 AM Well I reckon some of these songs are just asking for it. Kris |
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Subject: RE: BS: Murdered songs From: Les from Hull Date: 20 Feb 01 - 10:16 AM or you could make a good case for a plea of self-defence. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Murdered songs From: GUEST,Roger the skiffler Date: 20 Feb 01 - 10:16 AM Guilty, your honour, many hundred of similar offences to be taken into consideration. Never for a paying audience, hell, mostly never for any audience (where did they go, so fast?). RtS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Murdered songs From: English Jon Date: 20 Feb 01 - 10:38 AM I did hear a chap do Barbara allen in it's entirety. Trouble was, he was a fairly high tenor, and so started a fair way up. But he somehow managed to transpose up by 1 semitone over each verse. Twenty seven verses later the poor chap practically had blood coming out of his eyeballs. I don't know about murdered songs, but that song very nearly murdered him. Jon
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Subject: RE: BS: Murdered songs From: GUEST, Jerry Friedman Date: 20 Feb 01 - 11:41 AM The poem about the man with the tongue of wood is by Stephen Crane (1871-1900), who also wrote "The Open Boat" and
From XVI
There was a man with tongue of wood |
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Subject: RE: BS: Murdered songs From: GUEST, Jerry Friedman Date: 20 Feb 01 - 11:44 AM Oh, dear, blue clicky failure. Netscape's "View Source" is even kind enough to flash a right angle bracket at me. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Murdered songs From: Naemanson Date: 20 Feb 01 - 12:12 PM I've been involved with open mikes and coffeehouses for several years. I've heard many songs murdered. And Clinton is exactly right. These people are doing something they love. The audience members are there to hear them knowing they could get an evening of clinkers. Still, the singers sing and the audience listens and are never skeptical. Long live the open mike and all who come to perform! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Murdered songs From: Melani Date: 20 Feb 01 - 01:02 PM I regularly hear a couple of songs that I learned as slow and gentle sung at a pace that sounds as if the singer were galloping down a race track. I find this annoying, although it is a matter of personal taste, and the singers are quite competent. |
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Subject: Lyr Add: IT'S NOT WHAT I'D SING WAS I SOBER From: GUEST,Roll&G0-C Date: 20 Feb 01 - 01:27 PM I'm sometimes tempted to sing this song at our local folk club, but I really wouldn't unless everyone had done quite well. Still, we've all been there. This version is probably somewhat folk-processed, manslughter rather than felony murder. IT'S NOT WHAT I'D SING WAS I SOBER (By David Diamond (1984), a former member of The Boarding Party)Tune: "The Limerick Rake" Come all ye folksingers, all in a throng, And I'll sing ye a ditty that's turgid and long, With rhymes that don't rhyme and with meter that's a little bit too long, And 'tis not what I'd sing 'twas I sober. But 'tis my turn to sing, and I've had one or two, And ye swine in the back best not head for the loo, You can put up with me for I've put up with you, And I'd like ye to join in the chorus. There are ninety-two verses, I'll stop and explain, For I learned them this morning with infinite pain; I'll just mumble the ones I've forgotten again, And 'tis not what I'd sing 'twas I sober. Although me guitar I relentlessly bring, 'Tis never in tune when it's my turn to sing; So I'll go acappella with this little thing, And I'd like ye to join in the chorus. Such symbols as cuckoos and valleys so deep, My intent from the ears of the innocent to keep; You know what I mean if you've not gone to sleep, And 'tis not what I'd sing 'twas I sober. And after the sex they'll be lots of gore, With choking and stabbing, and a corpse on the floor; But before all ye squeamish ones rush for the door, I'd like ye to join in the chorus. I tell everyone I collected this lay, From an ancient agrarian all covered with hay; Who lay on the floor of the pub and did say, "'Tis not what I'd sing 'twas I sober." But the truth to tell, I stole this refrain; Its plot's so complex that it boggles the brain, And next month I'm planning to sing it again, And I'd like ye to join in the chorus. I scribbled it down on the back of a sheet, That I tore from the roll as I sat on the seat, Off the back of the pub where them folksingers meet, And 'tis not what I'd sing 'twas I sober. I take it 'round with me to the clubs where I go, And ask at the door, "Hey, can I join ye show?" You was the first ones that didn't shout "No!" And I'd like ye to join in the chorus.
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Subject: RE: BS: Murdered songs From: Gray Rooster Date: 20 Feb 01 - 02:09 PM IN THE FOLLOWING SOAP BOX RANT, PLEASE FEEL FREE TO SUBSTITUE ANY NAME (INCLUDING MINE) WHEN THE WORD "YOU", OR "you" IS READ. Reading through the posts, I must disagree with any sentiment that appears to say a song has only one right way to be done. In folk music? In any music? Come on. YOU can't perform a folk tune like it was originally done. You ain't the person that wrote it, or the person that you learned it from. L's bells, you can't perform a song yourself the same way twice. Music is growth. Please don't get didactic on me. Bless any performer who stands - I give 'em a 100, and it CAN'T go down -- only up. Faster, slower. Who cares? If you don't like what you hear, turn your ears off. Better yet, show us all the "right way to do it." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Murdered songs From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 20 Feb 01 - 02:34 PM For instance, the song 'When It's Lamplighting Time in the Valley' sets up as its premise that the person can't return home to Mother because of a crime he committed. (It doesn't address whether he is incarcerated or a fugitive.) The line is "For she knows not the crime I have done"; I know a man who sings it "For she knows of the crime I have done". If she knows, why is she waiting? (Ebbie)
Sort of thread drifty here - and it's not a song I know. But I'd have thought that if you'd done some terrible crime you might be feeling you couldn't go home to your mother, whether or not she knew; and whether or not she knew, your mother would be waiting for you - mothers are like tha generally. So I can't see how that change is one that would undermine a song |
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Subject: RE: BS: Murdered songs From: Bill D Date: 20 Feb 01 - 02:49 PM Grey Rooster..MY particular rant goes "If you don't like the songs the way they are...write some that suit you...don't mess up my favorites." I do realize that absolute adherence to the 'original' version is not possible..(even for the author)..but, there is a BIG difference between gradual processing over many years and wholesale mangling JUST to have your 'own' version. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Murdered songs From: Gray Rooster Date: 20 Feb 01 - 03:44 PM Bill, I agree with you in part. But I think it is all subjectivity. Do you agree? I've heard many astounding songs redone that were every bit as artistic as the original. I think you might have a point when the performer forces a tune. When that happens, I try to tactfully arrange a layout of my methods and opinions and see if some common ground might be found. I used to have great distaste for Arabic and Japanese music (some of it still grates) until I sat down and studied the forms. Most finger pointing originates from snobbery and competition, two things I can't abide in music. Hell, my parents couldn't stand Bob Dylan and some people still can't. Doesn't take away from his talent though, does it? I've played command performances for the Dallas Symphony Orchestra and I've played places I wouldn't take you or my dog. In every place, I've managed to mangle something (even if I was the only one who knew it).
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Subject: RE: BS: Murdered songs From: Pseudolus Date: 20 Feb 01 - 04:04 PM I don't have a problem with someone murdering a song, I just don't have to like it. Murder is in the ear of the beholder....Murder to me = Innovation to them!! Frank |
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Subject: RE: BS: Murdered songs From: Gray Rooster Date: 20 Feb 01 - 04:06 PM I'm still with you Frank (God help you!) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Murdered songs From: Bernard Date: 25 Feb 01 - 05:24 AM There's a chap who turns up frequently on Singers' Night at the Railway. He picks up his guitar and massacres songs - the tunes are often unrecognisable - and his 'style' is sing a line quickly, fumble a chord or two, sing another line, fumble, etc. If he leaves the guitar alone, the change is remarkable... However, no-one seems to mind, because he is enjoying himself - that, in itself, is infectious. Allow people their 'moment of glory' - after all, if their talent isn't as great as yours they must make the best of what little they have... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Murdered songs From: GUEST,Yorkie Date: 25 Feb 01 - 08:02 AM Clinton, in my family we only cast nasturtiums. I heard Pete Coe sing Poverty, Poverty, Knock last week; and realised I'd only heard the murdered version before. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Murdered songs From: Hawker Date: 25 Feb 01 - 09:28 AM Most of you seem to agree that songs get mudered and that we should tolerate it, and infact most of us are guilty ourselves, I did ask what songs you heard get murdered most....... Also like Gray rooster said, there is NO RIGHT way to sing a song, I firmly believe that many of the traditional songs we hear today differ greatly from how they were originally conceived - as they have been passed on aurally, and at each stage the singer does it their way. But with the dawn of the ability to record came a sort of standard that has quashed the natural growth of traditional music as it was.... Go for it! - Able or not, but please, one thing that does bother me is people who think that if they can't sing well, sing LOUDER!!!!! Happy singing, I' just off to murder a tune on the banjo! Lucy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Murdered songs From: Peg Date: 25 Feb 01 - 10:43 AM arrgh! I got booted and lost the rather large post I just constructed! damn cats... oh well; will try to repost it again. |
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