Help: Traditional Irish singing--why & when t

Subject: Traditional Irish singing--why & when to
From: GUEST,Dave Murphy nee Brennan
Date: 04 Mar 01 - 02:57 PM

A group of us get together once a fortnight and talk about and sing traditional Irish songs, sometimes called "Sean Nos" It's a great get-together and indeed if you're ever in the Detroit area, we meet at the White Heather Club, just off of Woodward and a little north of Nine Mile Road; it'll be on March 15th when next we'll meet. This is Virginia and myself below. http://www.speedlink.net/~cara/cce/classes/amhrain.html

But anyway, the question we all puzzled over was, why and when would you ornament a song?

We really couldn't come up with an answer. I don't really know myself because I've been singing this stuff too long to give an objective answer. Virginia sings usually in Irish or in the Gaelic and believes it's to do with local dialects and local styles of singing. But then you've got singers like Robert Cinnamond or Geordi Hanna, (God rest them)who would sing in a very different style from others around them. But the question would be more important for young singers coming on or others wanting to sing in the old style. When do you add ornamentation and how much should you add?

A group of six or eight of us sang songs to kind of illustrate the differences in styles, but came to no real conclusion which often the case when having a good time.

If anyone here would like to give their thoughts, we'll talk about what you've said. Thanks for your time.

Dave

Subject: RE: Help: Traditional Irish singing--why & when t
From: Margaret V
Date: 04 Mar 01 - 04:42 PM

Hi, Dave, and welcome if you're new here. You might enjoy reading some previous threads that touch a bit on this subject by going to the box called "digitrad and forum search" and putting sean nos. Cheers, Margaret

Subject: RE: Help: Traditional Irish singing--why & when t
From: Áine
Date: 04 Mar 01 - 05:50 PM

Dia daoibh, Dave agus Virginia! Welcome to the Mudcat. I hope you both will be regular visitors and contributors to the forum.

Here are a few of the best threads we have had dealing with the sean nós tradition:

One

Two

Three

Four

Five

Enjoy!

Le meas, Áine

Subject: RE: Help: Traditional Irish singing--why & when t
From: GUEST,Philippa
Date: 04 Mar 01 - 06:56 PM

Welcome back, that is. Dave and Virginia have contributed before. For instance, I think, in threads about Sliabh na mBan and Cath Ceim an Fhia.

Sorry, I haven't an answer re ornamentation and I don't know if there's any in the threads Áine provided links for. I thought from the thread title that a singer new to the art wanted guidelines and I would've just suggested singers to listen to and emulate, I suppose. It interests me that singers like Dave and Virginia also can't come up with an answer. Maybe Lilis O Laoire could; he can be quite analytical when talking about singing. And I once heard Padraigín Ní Uallacháin talking about how she decided which songs to sing unaccompanied and which accompanied on her recordings.

Subject: RE: Help: Traditional Irish singing--why & when t
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Mar 01 - 07:31 PM

The crucial thing surely is that there isn't just one Irish tradition, there's a whole collection of local traditions, some going for more ornamentation, some less. That's as true for siging as it is for instrumental playing.

And, like every other community in the diaspora (including what you could call the internal one within Ireland), you're in the process of developing another tradition, based on a combination of the different traditions. The only guide has to be taste. Which isn't really much help I suppose.

Subject: RE: Help: Traditional Irish singing--why & when t
From: Sorcha
Date: 04 Mar 01 - 07:59 PM

I was going to ask, "Is there a Pibroch Style for Sean Nos?" Pibroch for the pipes is now quite rigid, with no improvinosation allowed. I was not aware that was the case with Sean Nos........and I hope not.

I have a lovely daughter that does not know the meaning of Sean Nos, but she does it anyway. On her own, whenever she feels it is necessary. Her choir teacher could be losing his mind over this, but bless his soul is not.

He gave her the Solo Lead in a blues number the last concert, and she did it up just fine.......not exactly like she had done it in rehearsal, but real good just the same.

I see Sean Nos just like Blues.......do what feels good at the time, you are in charge. Just don't overdo the ornaments. Neither Blues nor Sean Nos are ever exactly the same each time, and that is part of the glory of the styles.

Subject: RE: Help: Traditional Irish singing--why & when t
From: Liam's Brother
Date: 04 Mar 01 - 08:06 PM

Hi Dave and Virginia!

Thanks for the invitation. If I'm ever headed to Detroit, I'll check in with you first. Likewise, if you are headed to New York City, the New York Traditional Singers meet the last Wednesday of every month. You and your friends are invited to join us.

Back about 1980 when I was putting together the Introduction for my collection, A Bonnie Bunch of Roses, I wrote this, "Singers come in three categories: those who tell the tale precisely as they heard it, those who would only occasionally alter certain details to clarify the message, and those very individualistic singers who stamp much of their repetoire with their own trademark." I think that statement can apply to singing style as well as textual variation.

Philippa and I usually see each other once a year at a singing festival in a rural part of Ireland with a strong singing tradition. Some of the local singers are very individualistic. Why? Maybe there's more than one factor at play than the "different drummer" theory.

All the best, Dan

Subject: RE: Help: Traditional Irish singing--why & when t
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 05 Mar 01 - 02:33 PM

"Why and when would you ornament a song"
It is a very tough question to answer without knowing why you are asking it.
When you were a young singer, whom did you ask that question and what was the answer? Why would you not give the same answer to the young singers who ask you that question?
If the question was never asked nor answered, how did you ever learn? Why would you not tell young singers to learn the same way you learned?

As far as I am concerned, if you are already doing sean nos, and you've been doing it for some time, you are the experts.

If you want to give guidance to newbies, all you need do is figure out what you are doing to some extent so that you can verbalize it. I am not saying that this would be easy. But if you tried to "step back" and look at your singing objectively, you might see some regularities you could talk about. I would guess that your ornamentation is not truly random. You might see patterns in your use of ornamentation. If you find it hard to hear what you are doing when you sing, ask your sean nos singing companions to describe your singing. Do they think of you as having any hallmarks? If your voice were to change so that it would be impossible to recognize it, how would they know that you were the singer in a blind test?

When you are talking about style to newbies all you need say is, simply, "This is how I do it. Take it or leave it." Or "This is my take on how we do it in my village/county/state".

I am not taking the approach of McGrath and Sorcha and offering aesthetic advice. Whatever you are doing in the way of ornamentation is fine just exactly as it is. But it might be fun to try to figure out what you are doing so that you can talk about it.