Subconscious Appropriation of a Tune

Subject: Subconscious Appropriation of a Tune
From: Allan C.
Date: 07 Mar 01 - 10:21 PM

Most of you know that George Harrison was sued for his song, "My Sweet Lord" that allegedly infringed the copyright on the song, "He's So Fine", composed by Ronald Mack and performed by The Chiffons. Thoughts of this suit haunt me. Twice now, I have written tunes that have come to me with such facility that I am somewhat frightened by the possibility that I may have heard the tune somewhere before. Does one just put the song out into the world and stand back while both hoping for the best and fearing the worst? How can the originality of a tune be checked? What is a person to do?

Subject: RE: Subconscious Appropriation of a Tune
From: Allan C.
Date: 07 Mar 01 - 10:31 PM

For those who might want to see it,here is a reference to the suit.

Subject: RE: Subconscious Appropriation of a Tune
From: SeanM
Date: 07 Mar 01 - 11:17 PM

Allan, the best I think you can hope for is for someone to recognize the tune before it becomes popular. I believe that there is an exemption for 'parallel development' at least in US copyright law. I'm not a lawyer, nor have I done heavy research, but I'm pretty sure I remember a few cases where the plaintiff lost due to it being proven that the defendant had either no prior contact with the contested arrangement, or had no recollection and therefore knowledge that it was 'stolen'. Of course, I'd imagine that one would have to be able to prove that one hadn't been in contact with the material prior to writing one's own version...

My favorite variant on this happened a number of years ago in Canada. Seems some American pop singer was to sing the Canadian national anthem before the game - but didn't know the tune. Wound up singing "O Canada" to the tune of "O Tannenbaum".

Now if we can just get someone to get up in front of a US football game and sing "Star Spangled Banner" to the tune of "Take this Job and Shove It"... now THAT would be comedy.

M

Subject: RE: Subconscious Appropriation of a Tune
From: wdyat12
Date: 07 Mar 01 - 11:17 PM

Allen,

My plagiaristic subconcsious has haunted me for years to the point of doubting every lick and lyric I have ever written. I just don't let it worry me anymore after getting some good advice from other Mudcatters on the BS: HOW do you write your songs? thread posted March 1, 2001. Sorry I can't do the blue clicky thing yet, so just click on wdyat12 and go to that thread. You may feel differently after reading some of the responses to my posts.

wdyat12

Subject: RE: Subconscious Appropriation of a Tune
From: SeanM
Date: 07 Mar 01 - 11:28 PM

HOW do you write your songs thread

M, Apprentice link fairy

Subject: RE: Subconscious Appropriation of a Tune
From: wdyat12
Date: 07 Mar 01 - 11:36 PM

Thank you SeanM.

wdyat12

Subject: RE: Subconscious Appropriation of a Tune
From: mousethief
Date: 08 Mar 01 - 11:38 AM

I wrote a song once when I was in college called "Down with this." The chorus went "Down with this, down with that." (I was making fun of protestors. Hey, I was young and foolish. I'm more sober now, honest.) The melody was a progression of 3 descending notes, on a minor scale, and quite fetching.

Years later I realized it was from a BeeGee's song ("lonely days, lonely nights...").

Good thing I never got a recording contract.

I imagine this sort of thing happens all the time. There should be a way to say, "okay, i obviously copped your tune, but it was quite inadverdent" and pay appropriate royalties without paying damages, punitive penalties, etc.

But then what would copyright lawyers do? They'd have far too much free time on their hands, which could get ugly.

Alex

Subject: RE: Subconscious Appropriation of a Tune
From: mkebenn
Date: 08 Mar 01 - 11:47 AM

I wrote a song about spousal abuse that I wanted to "sound" trad, wanted a bouncy celtic tune to offset the somber material.I did not cop a tune, only a style, but if research was done, I'm sure a hundred songs are close. As far as legal ramifications are concerned, not the same as nickin' the Bee Gees..LOL..Mike

Subject: RE: Subconscious Appropriation of a Tune
From: Bert
Date: 08 Mar 01 - 11:53 AM

I'm always hesitant to sing any new song for the first time in case I have 'borrowed' lyrics or tune from somewhere.

Sometimes I get lucky and recognize the tune before I sing it for anyone. Then I go in and tweak it here and there to make it, hopefully, unrecognizable.

I had awful problems with Lonely Woman trying to make it NOT sound like "Pretty Woman". I had to work hard on both the words and the tune.

Bert.

Subject: RE: Subconscious Appropriation of a Tune
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 08 Mar 01 - 01:01 PM

Sued!! You should be so lucky. This about it this way. The purpose of such a lawsuit is to make money. Nobody is going to sue you unless they and their lawyer(s) think they stand to make some serious bucks if they win. If you've got enough money to attract that kind of lawsuit, you also have a staff and a team of lawyers of your own who can handle everything. If, on the other hand, you don't have that kind of money, probably the worst you have to worry about is a nastygram.

Subject: RE: Subconscious Appropriation of a Tune
From: Allan C.
Date: 08 Mar 01 - 01:24 PM

Good point, Russ! (Not that others haven't made good points as well.) I suppose that unless I create a million-seller hit, I shouldn't have much to fear.

Well, what with that and some of the other good input here, I am breathing just a little easier. Thanks!

Frankly, I would think that anyone who surrounds themselves with the music of others could hardly help but unconsciously make use of some of the musical patterns and note sequences they have heard.

Subject: RE: Subconscious Appropriation of a Tune
From: mousethief
Date: 08 Mar 01 - 01:42 PM

Not necessarily so. Remember ASCAP came within a gnat's crotchet of suing the Girl Scouts over their use of some copyrighted songs in their songbook. ASCAP stood to gain no money (the Girl Scouts are not, contrary to some reports, brimming over with cash). But they need to protect their copyrights. The thinking in copyright law land goes like this: if we let the Girl Scouts get away with using songs without paying the appropriate fees or royalties, then the next yokel to come down the pike will insist on the same rights. And the judges and/or juries will give it to him. So we have to stop the girl scouts, not because we're losing money by their actions, but because of the precedent their action sets.

Eventually they settled out of court, ASCAP no doubt realizing they would look like Goliath suing David in the court of public opinion.

But don't underestimate the power of copyright law to wreak havoc with little people. It's definitely there.

Alex

Subject: RE: Subconscious Appropriation of a Tune
From: Boredatwork
Date: 08 Mar 01 - 04:05 PM

Chew on this....

If someone could convince RAP ARTIST A that RAP ARTIST B stole the tune to a song from him (and that wouldn't be very hard to do since all rap songs do sound the same) and then someone could convince RAP ARTIST C that RAP ARTIST B stole a tune from him....etcetera ad infinitum then all the rappers would be so tied up suing each other that they wouldn't have time to record and the whole rap music industry would simply implode!

What a beautiful world!

But seriously folks....

Within the musical genres in which many Mudcatters work and play, recycling a few basic tune structures is the norm instead of the exception. I'll bet nobody has ever been sued because an old-time, bluegrass, celtic, or blues song sounded like one somebody else had written. I have written bluegrass and swing songs that I know sound like other people's songs but WHO CARES? If someone wants to sue me, he's gotta sue all the other people who've done the same thing.

On the other hand.... there's that one that I don't do any more because it sound's too much like a Merle Haggard song...

Subject: RE: Subconscious Appropriation of a Tune
From: mousethief
Date: 08 Mar 01 - 04:25 PM

Actually Led Zeppelin got sued because a blues song sounded like something somebody else had stolen before them, and also got sued by Bert Jansch for black waterside or whatever it's called.

Subject: RE: Subconscious Appropriation of a Tune
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 08 Mar 01 - 09:32 PM

Funny. Nobody, as far as I recall, ever sued Woody Guthrie (who never wrote a tune that I know of). Or Sydney Carter, whose copyright on Lord of the Dance claims music as well as words.

If you're really worried, credit any tune you use to Trad, and copyright the words. Works unless you come up with another Asokan Farewell.

Subject: RE: Subconscious Appropriation of a Tune
From: catspaw49
Date: 08 Mar 01 - 09:47 PM

It is probably inevitable that somewhere along the line any tune will sound somewhat like another. McGrath and I were talking awhile back about not recognizing that two songs had the same tune for years. Now I know we aren't too bright, but I'll bet that's happened to more people than will ever admit it!

And then you have the song Dick just mentioned, "Ashoken Farewell." The damn thing sounds so old and trad that I doubt if Jay Ungar will ever be able to convince anyone it isn't stolen. I don't recall all the possible sources, but we have run some threads about it.

Dylan, like Guthrie, stole plenty and then took credit for them (another well hashed out subject) but one that I'd swear is stolen, "Lay Down Your Weary Tune," cannot seem to be traced to any source, the closest being some bagpipe number.

Crank it out Allan and don't feel guilty or worry til you're called on to do so........then they can refer to this thread to see it was something you did care about and had no malicious intent.

Spaw