Can Wrong Information Set You Back?

Subject: Can Wrong Information Set You Back?
From: GUEST,Marty D
Date: 11 Mar 01 - 12:01 PM

I've been looking at a couple of Music threads that seem to give very conflicting information about how to play, and what to play. A question for the long-time musicians: Can wrong information when you're a reasonably new player really set you back? I know there are differences of opinion, but some people just seem to make blanket statements and it doesn't seem to me that they give solid reasons for their conclusions.

Martin

Subject: RE: Can Wrong Information Set You Back?
From: Amos
Date: 11 Mar 01 - 12:04 PM

Wrong information can be the bane of your existence, if you accept authority-based data. That's why you want to use your own eyes and experience as the final judge. As a start, notice what is opinion, what is partial fact, and what is complete fact. Mixing these up can really shred your sanity.

A

Subject: RE: Can Wrong Information Set You Back?
From: catspaw49
Date: 11 Mar 01 - 12:21 PM

Martin, I'm sure you've found out that this is a very opinionated place and we have some fine musicians on a wide variety of instruments and voice. You'll find agreement on some issues and 300 different opinions on others. No one intentionally gives bad advice, but you have to sort out the chaff from the grain. A lot of us will add IMHO (in my humble opinion) but not always and its up to you to see that at times, we are all right and at others we are all wrong.

I'm a half-assed guitar player so I limit my comments on playing and just try to take the tips I get from from those who are great (Rick Fielding, Mooh, Justa Picker, etc.) and try to use them. If your purpose is to become a great picker (mine isn't) then you will do well to listen to them and you'll see they often agree.

Many times you'll find too that they have excellent knowledge of instrument construction, but there are others around (John P., mcmoo, myself, etc.) who are very well versed in that area. Then there are the hundreds of 'Catters who have some great tips and abilities too and those are the ones that you can really learn from. Remember that expert=X, the unknown factor, and spurt, a drip under pressure, so all of us are "unknown drips under pressure." As Amos said, take what you want and try it, the truth becomes apparent.

I've been around here so long that I could make a list of 'Catters and give you their expertise, but I am always amazed at the knowledge that pervades this whole place!!! Rest assured though that nobody here is going to steer you too far wrong.....and if they do, you'll find 25 others jumping their ass before the day is up. The "threshing" gets easier after awhile.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Can Wrong Information Set You Back?
From: Allan C.
Date: 11 Mar 01 - 12:32 PM

Well said, Spaw.

I know it is really hard to know the wheat from the chaff when first starting out in any new venture. Heck, it is hard enough sometimes just to figure out how to ask the questions! The thing that you eventually come to realize is that you have to discover what it is that works for you and for what you want to accomplish. This is the deciding factor on which information is useful (to you) and which is not. The truth is that virtually all of the information people give you is about what works for them.

Subject: RE: Can Wrong Information Set You Back?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 11 Mar 01 - 12:39 PM

Yup-- skim stuff till something jumps out from all the ideas that sounds like what you suspected you should do all along.

The only harm authority-based data will do you, in itself, is load you up with useful or useless data. It's how you respond that matters, and you are free to take or leave anything anyone tells you.

There are no real authority figures here at Mudcat-- that would require that someone here actually have the power to force you to comply with their directions. Physically. Short of that, your music, your mind, and your reactions to advice are completely in your own flexible hands. (You are in charge of you.)

There also are no ultimately right answers-- just the best ones you and anyone else can think about on any given day.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Can Wrong Information Set You Back?
From: Bernard
Date: 11 Mar 01 - 01:09 PM

My advice to anyone embarking on such a potentially hazardous journey is this: You are unlikely to learn to play an instrument proficiently if you merely want to do so.

You will only succeed (despite the influence of others!) if you desperately need to play that instrument.

I always gave that advice to those ringing me about music lessons, particularly if it was a parent on behalf of a child.

Music is more than just a skill, it is a way of life. Bad advice will hinder progress, but not prevent it. Some people find only one instrument to identify with; for them, trying to learn the 'wrong' instrument will end in tears...

They say you should only learn an instrument which suits you physically. Bad advice! I've got fingers like a pound of pork sausages, so I shouldn't consider the mandolin. But I play it well... and the guitar... and keyboards... flute... tin whistle... concertinas... the list goes on.

So, as everybody else has said, it's not the advice itself, but how you use that advice.

Can I go home now?

Subject: RE: Can Wrong Information Set You Back?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 11 Mar 01 - 01:15 PM

*SMOOCHIE WOOCHIES*

Yes, dear. See the idea I left you in Malcolm's thread first though.

~S~

Subject: RE: Can Wrong Information Set You Back?
From: Justa Picker
Date: 11 Mar 01 - 02:06 PM

Play what YOU like.

Doing so should always make it fun.

Accept that the guitar is NOT your friend.
(Sometimes getting certain chord positions downright hurts the tendons. Give the tendons a rest and come back to it. Think of it as a wild beast which you must tame and control. And then it will obey you. Always play the guitar and don't let it play you.

It is easier to learn something right the first time, than to learn it wrong and then have to un-learn it.

If you work at all from tab, find the most comfortable way of making a given chord structure, regardless of what is written on the paper. As long as you're hitting the notes you're supposed to hit, it doesn't matter how you get there but always look for the easiest route and don't finger or fret any more notes than are required.

When it stops being fun, take a break from it.

Learn to focus on the music you're making, and not the mistakes.(Sometimes easier said than done.)

When learning to fingerpick, play as LOUD as you possibly can, whether with fingers, or fingerpicks and slowly. Make sure every note is sounding true. Then, gradually increase the tempo and add some dynamics.

Get more than 1 opinion on any questions you have. Find what works best for you and adapt.

Make simple songs sound complicated. Make complicated songs sound simple.

Subject: RE: Can Wrong Information Set You Back?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 11 Mar 01 - 03:22 PM

Hi Marty (How's the Doc Watson style coming?)

You bet your BIPPY that wrong information can not only slow you down, but can often stop you creatively in your tracks.

One of the hardest tasks that I have as a stringed instrument teacher is helping people BREAK long-time bad habits. It's not as easy as simply saying "Oh, you're doing that wrong, try this"..... First you have to earn that person's trust, next you have to believe that they really DO want to improve, after that, getting THEM to identify the problem, and finally, sticking with them for the several weeks or months that it takes to put them back on track. I'll give a couple of examples. Starting with me.

For many years I've played banjo at a reasonably high level...yet something always nagged at me, regarding my "three finger style" playing. I couldn't identify it, something just felt wrong. I went to a couple of fine banjo players for some lessons. Their response was "hey, you've got your own style, it's fine, don't mess with it." Fine, but every time I listened to the early recordings of Earl Scruggs, I heard a special "something", and I knew I didn't have it. Problem was...I WANTED it. Badly. Recently I acquired a video tape by Miss Murphy Henry, a wonderful Scruggs oriented player. I looked at the "beginners" part of her lesson over and over again, and suddenly...Voila! There it was, one note (a quite repetitive one in this style) that she (and Earl) played with her right hand thumb, and I had (for 35 years) been playing with my index finger. We had both been playing the exact same note, but when the speed was up, her's had "that something" and to my ear, mine didn't.

First, I trusted her as a banjoist.

Second. No question, I WANTED to improve.

Third. Although it took going back into "rank beginner" mode, I identified the specific problem.

Fourth. I'm so used to doing that note with my index finger, it probably WILL take me months to change it. Hard work, yes, but lotsa fun as well..'specially when I get it.

-------------

In it's simplest form, the most common "bad habit" that I've seen in folks who WANT to improve, but can't, is that they're playing the WRONG instrument.

Some folks have very sensitive fingers, that simply never toughen up, and yet they've suffered through years of high-tension strings, high action, and guitar bodies that are simply too big for them (causing them to use the wrong hand angle around the neck and further exascerbate the pain)

There are lots of other things, but something else that pops to mind is that when someone REALLY WANTS to improve, they often have to deal with those who say "hey just have fun, who cares about things like wrong notes, being outta tune, ya don't need to be fancy, yadda, yadaa..." That can be a powerful depressent. Anyone who tells you that learning to play well, ISN'T fun...well I think THAT'S wrong information..oops,IMHO Hah, Hah!

Rick

Subject: RE: Can Wrong Information Set You Back?
From: Peter T.
Date: 11 Mar 01 - 05:02 PM

I would say, as a medium novice, that the biggest problem (for me, but maybe others) is a particular kind of misinformation which, if I can articulate it, is something like extrapolation from one piece of information or an idea into a vague image of what playing should be like, and then going with that. Vagueness is a big problem for my academic students, and it turns out to be the same for me. They persist in giving me what is sort of like a real argument based on kinda evidence. They are vaguely gesturing in the right direction, and because it is in the right direction they think they are done. But it is actually worse than being completely wrong, because it is an obstacle, a substitute for grappling with the real difficulties.

I have the same problem as a music student. I have a vague idea what playing this piece or even what it means to play is like, and when you actually get a good teacher (I am blessed in this regard) who gets down to the details, you find that it was your vague image that got in the way. Example: strumming the guitar as opposed to being clear about bass notes, picking patterns, etc. Strumming the guitar looks like playing the guitar but isn't. It is actually in the way because it is so vague.

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Can Wrong Information Set You Back?
From: Amos
Date: 11 Mar 01 - 05:39 PM

Same problem in engineering - cool ideas are a nickel a peck, but the devil is in tthe details, and walking the walk often wends elsewhere then you would think.

A

Subject: RE: Can Wrong Information Set You Back?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 11 Mar 01 - 05:50 PM

Good point about "STRUMMING" Peter. On the surface it would seem to be the easiest way to play the guitar, but it's not. Listen to some of the really good rhythm strummers and you'll hear solid skills. Folks like John Lennon, Bob Dylan, Stan Rogers etc. These people made their songs BREATHE, because their strumming was controlled. Do you know who else got high marks from their bands? Hank Williams and Elvis.

Sometimes you can get the RIGHT information about something, but you just can't process it. Heather tried to teach me some computer skills, but I simply was too thick to catch on. She lost patience when I said I'd have to write everything down in my own words, in the exact order that made sense to me. Mudcatters Tony Burns and Peter T were able to get the simple stuff over to me much better.

Same thing with my synthesyzer. The manual practically swims before my eyes. I literally have to take it one step at a time and write my OWN manual.

Regarding music again. One piece of bad information I got was that learning to understand theory would be a drawback to playing with "feel". Hogwash. A bit of theory allows you to put "names" to things...and that speeds up the learning process. Took me a long time to learn that. I don't mean becoming a great sight-reader (I ain't) I just mean knowing what notes go into a chord and stuff like that.

Rick.

Subject: RE: Can Wrong Information Set You Back?
From: GUEST,marty D
Date: 12 Mar 01 - 12:14 PM

One of the opinions I read here stated that "a 12 string that couldn't be tuned up to pitch was simply no good." Is that right? I doubt it.

The worst advice I got for years was that playing Doc Watson or Norman Blake styles was too hard for most people.

Martin

Subject: RE: Can Wrong Information Set You Back?
From: catspaw49
Date: 12 Mar 01 - 12:41 PM

I don't get it Peter......Your whole post seems sorta' "fuzzy" to me. Could you be less vague?

Spaw

Subject: RE: Can Wrong Information Set You Back?
From: Gary T
Date: 12 Mar 01 - 01:17 PM

Martin, as far as the 12-string....if it can't be tuned to standard pitch without starting to deconstruct (which is what I assume was being referred to), then I think it's pretty safe to say it's no good for playing in standard tuning. For someone who doesn't care to tune it to a lower pitch, it's probably quite true that it is simply no good--to him.

As for playing a la Doc or Norman being too hard for most people, that may very well be true. If so, that doesn't make it wrong information. If the real message was that you shouldn't even try it yourself, it may have been poor advice for you, but you've got to consider that advice is a two-way street. The recipient needs to evaluate the source of the advice, try to understand what the advisor is trying to accomplish, and decide if that particular advice from that particular source is worthwhile to him. Probably the best approach is to actively seek advice and information from various sources and try to sort out what is most likely to help you. Passively accepting all advice as correct until proven otherwise may well set one back.