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Welcome New Mudcatter Pol Pot !
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Subject: WELCOME NEW MUDCATTER POL POT ! From: GUEST,- "older and wiser" Date: 14 Mar 01 - 06:17 PM Please, everyone, join me in Welcoming Pol Pot, our newest member. Every once in a while you need to confront something new and different to learn something new and different. Which brings me to the subject of this Cambodian dictator -
I don't believe he's alone in thinking the way he does; he verbalizes what a lot of people in Cambodian society think. I bear in mind that not everyone has studied up on the finer points of his style. Nor does everyone here appreciate the approach that has worked so well for him- mass genocide.
It can be an interesting experience talking to and listening to people who live in a completely different mindset from your own...and not judging them in the process. It's clear to me that like almost all other people he defends what he thinks is right, proper, fair, responsible, and just. That's what's so interesting about it.
Now, some people who decry Pol Pot's meanness can be pretty mean themselves. So...Let he among us who is without prejudice cast the first accusation. I'll say one thing for him. He's got fortitude. I'd have crawled away long ago if I was getting castigated by the international community the way he has been.
I have found that after a life of hating, detesting, and vilifying mass murderers, dictators, and despots I can now have friendships with them, play music with them, appreciate their strengths, and pardon their weaknesses...as I hope they would do with me. If not, I can live with it. What the hell. Politics ain't everything.
So, WELCOME POL POT! Lets hope we have some spirited debates.
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Subject: RE: WELCOME NEW MUDCATTER POL POT ! From: Pete M Date: 14 Mar 01 - 06:39 PM Hmmm, I can't say I quite follow the point of this "older and wiser". I must admit to having been away from the 'Cat for about a year or so, and so have not caught up with all the new people, but from memory I don't think we as a community have ever advocated being non judgemental. The great strength, well one of them, of the 'Cat has always been our ability in 99.9% of cases to debate subjects with other members who hold opposing views without acrimony. Some of us have even changed our views as a result. Having said that, we all have our own carefully constructed prejudices and from my experience although the people most able to debate a topic are those capable of seeing the opposing point of view that doesn't mean they can't or won't condemn it. They generally don't advocate being non judgemental - usually quite the opposite. Something I have said many times before and will repeat however, is that the one thing that most people hate is having it pointed out that their particular bete noir is not a 'monster', insane, depraved etc but 'just folks next door'. It seems to me that the only common factor in those more or less universally decried, is their absolute belief in themselves and the correctness of their point of view. A trait which is not limited to those who arrive in a position to apply their 'wisdom' to more than their immediate family. Hope I haven't gone on about something that was meant to be a joke. Pete M |
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Subject: RE: WELCOME NEW MUDCATTER POL POT ! From: catspaw49 Date: 14 Mar 01 - 06:58 PM Welcome Pol Pot........As a representative of the Mudcat Hatemongers Club, an incredible group of cynics who dislike handling dirt without a shovel, we welcome you with open arms and newly acquired shovels. Though we too admit that all of us, no matter how hard we try, have some bigotry about us, some of us work on it instead of excusing it. We are now trying to change our ways and have gotten shovels. A Mudcatter pointed out to us that people are generally the same and we make too much of the differences, and those petty differences were what Hitler took advantage of.....though I doubt someone at Dachau would have considered the differences "petty." So with a new light in our heart and shovels in our hands, we welcome you Pol Pot and I'm sure you feel that you have been misunderstood and the differences are simply petty. Spaw (Irony well done, "Older & Wiser") |
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Subject: RE: WELCOME NEW MUDCATTER POL POT ! From: GUEST,Againanon Date: 14 Mar 01 - 07:33 PM Let's just toss this thread in the pot. It's starts in hell, and it's such a long climb out. |
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Subject: RE: WELCOME NEW MUDCATTER POL POT ! From: menzze Date: 14 Mar 01 - 07:59 PM Can ya smoke pol pot???**BG** and in case of, how does taste? menz-ze |
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Subject: RE: WELCOME NEW MUDCATTER POL POT ! From: flattop Date: 14 Mar 01 - 08:17 PM Since he's been dead a couple of years, he probably doesn't taste peachy. |
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Subject: RE: WELCOME NEW MUDCATTER POL POT ! From: flattop Date: 14 Mar 01 - 08:21 PM Some interesting questions were raise (in 1997?) about Pol Pot on this site. The Politics of War Criminality There are, however, large numbers of mass murderers floating around the world. How are the choices made on who will be pursued and who will be granted impunity? The answer can be found by following the lines of dominant interest and power and watching how the mainstream politicians, media, and intellectuals reflect these demands. Media attention and indignation "follows the flag," and the flag follows the money (i.e., the demands of the corporate community), with some eccentricity based on domestic political calculations. This sometimes yields droll twists and turns, as in the case of Saddam Hussein, consistently supported through the 1980s in his war with Iran and chemical warfare attacks on Iraqi Kurds, until his invasion of Kuwait in 1990, transformed him overnight into "another Hitler." Similarly, Pol Pot, "worse than Hitler" until his ouster by Vietnam in 1979, then quietly supported for over a decade by the United States and its western allies (along with China) as an aid in "bleeding Vietnam," but now no longer serviceable to western policy and once again a suitable target for a war crimes trial. Another way of looking at our targeting of war criminals is by analogy to domestic policy choices on budget cuts and incarceration, where the pattern is to attack the relatively weak and ignore and protect those with political and economic muscle. Pol Pot is now isolated and politically expendable, so an obvious choice for villainization. By contrast, Indonesian leader Suharto, the butcher of perhaps a million people (mainly landless peasants) in 1965-66, and the invader, occupier, and mass murderer of East Timor from 1975 to today, is courted and protected by the Great Powers, and was referred to by an official of the Clinton administration in 1996 as "our kind of guy." Pinochet, the torturer and killer of many thousands, is treated kindly in the United States as the Godfather of the wonderful new neoliberal Chile. President Ford and Secretary of State Kissinger, who gave the go ahead to Suharto's invasion of East Timor and subsequent massive war crimes there, and the same Kissinger, who helped President Nixon engineer and then protect the Pinochet coup and regime of torture and murder and directed the first phase of the holocaust in Cambodia (1969-75), remain honored citizens. The media have never suggested that these men should be brought to trial in the interest of justice, law, and "civilization." ...
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Subject: RE: WELCOME NEW MUDCATTER POL POT ! From: GUEST,"older amd wiser" Date: 14 Mar 01 - 08:30 PM I am sorry, Mr. Spaw, but I cannot in good conscience take credit for the irony above. The words are those of fellow 'Catters, shamelessly plagerized from the "Welcome...MAV thread, q.v.- with only a change of proper name. There's nowt so queer as folk. |
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Subject: RE: WELCOME NEW MUDCATTER POL POT ! From: CarolC Date: 14 Mar 01 - 09:04 PM It looks to me like someone is pretty pissed off (angry) because there are some people in the Mudcat who hold opinions that are different than their own. I'm having a difficult time understanding in what way this attitude is different from the people they are complaining about.
As far as I know, only opinions have been exchanged in this forum. I'm not aware of any gunshots being exchanged. (Or any murders, or other atrocities.) I've said this on another thread recently... "You become what you hate". Some people here are beginning to look like petty despots themselves. And I hate so say it, but some of them are the ones who are supposedly on my side of the political spectrum. Carol |
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Subject: RE: WELCOME NEW MUDCATTER POL POT ! From: Sorcha Date: 14 Mar 01 - 09:13 PM First response--I don't think so. 2nd response--it's a Troll. 3rd response--let it die. Nuff said. |
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Subject: RE: WELCOME NEW MUDCATTER POL POT ! From: katlaughing Date: 14 Mar 01 - 11:40 PM If we were haters and we become whatever it is we hate, then those on the far right who'd like to kill my gay brother, et alia, will become gay, we would end up wanting to kill them because after all we would have become that which we supposedly hate and, so, things will balance out, right, and no more "petty" differences! Life is not all sweetness and light, people! It is healthy to air our differences and have conflicting notions of what is good for the world. |
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Subject: RE: WELCOME NEW MUDCATTER POL POT ! From: CarolC Date: 15 Mar 01 - 12:00 AM kat/katlaughing, since I'm the one who initially used the phrase that you referred to in your post, I guess I ought to address your comment.
First of all, I'm sorry your brother experiences hate from gay haters. Sometimes gay haters are just that because they are gay, and they are unable to face up to that fact. Certainly not in all cases, but it's not uncommon.
Second, I think you took what I said a little too literally. I didn't mean someone who hates would take on the exact attributes of the one he or she hates. My experience has been that if I hate someone for treating me badly, for instance, I may behave badly toward that person or even someone else as a way of dealing with my hatred. Finally, you said in your post that it's healthy for us to air our differences and have conflicting notions of what is good for the world. That is not what I see happening here. What's happening here looks to me like suppression of others' viewpoints. Carol |
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Subject: RE: WELCOME NEW MUDCATTER POL POT ! From: katlaughing Date: 15 Mar 01 - 12:11 AM Thank you Carol, I was treating it with a bit of irony as I knew you didn't mean it literally and also because I was getting fed up with people posting it as literal in the other threads. If you do a search on mav's name I think you will find that there has been no suppression of his views. I started the first Bushwhacked thread during the Shrub's first week in office, they went through at least 100 postings each up to what? Number 8 or 9, then the Encore and whatever the other one was. Nobody's postings were suppressed, repressed, or deleted, so I have to disagree with your observation, in act many Mudcatters, such as Skeptic went to great lengths to acknowledge his posting and debate ad infinitum with him. I have noticed an interesting trend on the Mudcat. When those of us who are generally considered to be in good humour and welcoming speak out against someone we are accused of being full of hate and castigated for being bigots. Can't win for trying. kat |
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Subject: RE: WELCOME NEW MUDCATTER POL POT ! From: CarolC Date: 15 Mar 01 - 12:23 AM I have noticed an interesting trend on the Mudcat. When those of us who are generally considered to be in good humour and welcoming speak out against someone we are accused of being full of hate and castigated for being bigots. Can't win for trying. --kat/katlaughing
I'm sorry you feel that way kat/katlaughing, but I can understand why you might feel the way you do.
I don't really have any interest in getting into the middle of anyone's political debate, discussion, or argument. I only got involved because of the level of vitriol I saw being exchanged by parties on both sides of the debate, and I was concerned about another flame war erupting. I still have that concern. I hope we can avoid that.
Best wishes, Carol |
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Subject: RE: WELCOME NEW MUDCATTER POL POT ! From: CarolC Date: 15 Mar 01 - 12:25 AM Sorry about the unclosed italics. |
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Subject: RE: WELCOME NEW MUDCATTER POL POT ! From: GUEST,mgarvey@pacifier.com Date: 15 Mar 01 - 12:31 AM The family that lives behind me is Cambodian. I have never seen the woman smile and she is a beautiful woman in her 30s. I worked with many Cambodian children and teens. Their lives were indescribable. Pardon me for not joining in the merriment. mg |
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Subject: RE: WELCOME NEW MUDCATTER POL POT ! From: ddw Date: 15 Mar 01 - 12:43 AM My first reaction to this thread was that it was probably in pretty bad taste. On reflection, however, GUEST older and wiser may have a point. "The words are those of fellow 'Catters, shamelessly plagerized from the "Welcome...MAV thread, q.v.- with only a change of proper name." I've sometimes thought we get a little too effusive in welcoming people into the M'cat Cafe when we don't know 'em from Adam's housecat. Nothing against being friendly, mine you, but there are limits, eh? david |
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Subject: RE: WELCOME NEW MUDCATTER POL POT ! From: katlaughing Date: 15 Mar 01 - 12:50 AM Thank you, Carol. I have the same concern, but I also get concerned when a Mudcatter may not say something for fear of being accused of being something they are not, in this case bigots. So, I guess, sometimes we just have to speak up, flame wars or not. Hopefully not. I do appreciate your concern. Mary, I am sorry the thread title offends you; from what you've posted in the past, I can understand. I don't know who named it, but it was done with a very heavy bit of irony, so maybe that will lesson the sting a bit. DW, egg-zactly! Someone comes into my house and repeatedly spews hateful rhetoric, I am sure not going to welcome them in to continue doing so. kat |
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Subject: RE: WELCOME NEW MUDCATTER POL POT ! From: CarolC Date: 15 Mar 01 - 12:53 AM On reflection, however, GUEST older and wiser may have a point. "The words are those of fellow 'Catters, shamelessly plagerized from the "Welcome...MAV thread, q.v.- with only a change of proper name." That's not entirely accurate. For instance this quote: "I don't believe he's alone in thinking the way he does; he verbalizes what a lot of people in Cambodian society think. I bear in mind that not everyone has studied up on the finer points of his style. Nor does everyone here appreciate the approach that has worked so well for him- mass genocide." I don't believe the words "mass genocide" were a part of the original post that this person was quoting from. |
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Subject: RE: WELCOME NEW MUDCATTER POL POT ! From: CarolC Date: 15 Mar 01 - 01:02 AM I'm messing up all over the place tonight. The first sentance in my last post is a quote from ddw's post. kat/katlaughing, I've noticed that when the Mudcat is in the throes of a flame war, a lot of people stop reading and participating. So the message you want to get out may not be getting to people very effectively in such an environment. If we can find a way to convey our messages so that people don't stop participating, won't we be doing a better job of furthering our respective causes? Carol |
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Subject: RE: WELCOME NEW MUDCATTER POL POT ! From: CarolC Date: 15 Mar 01 - 01:11 AM This is the original post, by WYSIWYG: MAV, welcome to the Mudcat. Now, bear in mind please, that not everyone has studied up on the finer points of your style. Nor does everyone here appreciate the approach that has worked so well for you in the whacked threads. I welcome you, and I hope you aren't a one-trick pony. |
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Subject: RE: WELCOME NEW MUDCATTER POL POT ! From: katlaughing Date: 15 Mar 01 - 02:10 AM Carol, I think enough people continue to read that the points will be made; they just choose not to post. |
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Subject: RE: WELCOME NEW MUDCATTER POL POT ! From: wdyat12 Date: 15 Mar 01 - 02:23 AM Welcome to Mudcat Pol Pot! I think I already did this. wdyat12 |
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Subject: RE: WELCOME NEW MUDCATTER POL POT ! From: CarolC Date: 15 Mar 01 - 02:26 AM Some of the ones I most care about have said they stop reading. |
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Subject: RE: WELCOME NEW MUDCATTER POL POT ! From: wdyat12 Date: 15 Mar 01 - 02:37 AM Carol, I know how you feel about MAV, but Mudcat turned me around. Maybe we should ask all new members to read and consider the FAQ and Welcome to New Members permathread before we castrate them. wdyat12 |
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Subject: RE: WELCOME NEW MUDCATTER POL POT ! From: CarolC Date: 15 Mar 01 - 02:51 AM wdyat12, I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. I welcomed MAV on the original welcome thread, and I have not participated in bashing (or castrating) anyone. Maybe you need to have another look at the MAV welcome thread. Carol |
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Subject: RE: WELCOME NEW MUDCATTER POL POT ! From: wdyat12 Date: 15 Mar 01 - 03:08 AM Sorry Carol, I'm so confused reading between the lines on this Welcome to Pol Pot thread. I was under the impression that MAV was now posting as Pol Pot. Please help me out here. It's 3:12 AM here and I should be asleep, but I can't rest until I find out the truth. wdyat12 |
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Subject: RE: WELCOME NEW MUDCATTER POL POT ! From: CarolC Date: 15 Mar 01 - 03:19 AM Hi wdyat12.
Ok, I'll try. The person who posted this thread (welcome Pol Pot) is upset that some Mudcatters have welcomed MAV. S/he also appears to be upset with the reasons that these Mudcatters are giving for welcoming MAV.
The person who started this thread is telling us that we can't welcome MAV if we want to.
I know it's confusing. I'm having a hard time understanding it myself. Carol |
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Subject: RE: WELCOME NEW MUDCATTER POL POT ! From: wdyat12 Date: 15 Mar 01 - 03:44 AM Thank you Carol, My apologies to you and Pol Pot for my obvious misunderstanding of what is going on here. Carol, you were rather considerate of MAV in your posts. I will rest easier knowing that you folks have this situation under control? Pol Pot, I look forward to talking with you when I get this all sorted out. Carol, thanks again for responding so soon. I am off to my blankie now. I will see how things fair on this thread later today. Nighty Night, wdyat12 |
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Subject: RE: WELCOME NEW MUDCATTER POL POT ! From: CarolC Date: 15 Mar 01 - 04:02 AM Good night, wdyat12.
Just one more thing, though. The Pol Pot who posted to the MAV welcome thread is a Mudcat identity that was created specifically for that thread. Someone was using that name to try to make a point.
If you click on the name Pol Pot in that post (the blue letters), you will find that the first (and probably only) post for this identity was that one. Carol |
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Subject: RE: WELCOME NEW MUDCATTER POL POT ! From: Pol Pot Date: 15 Mar 01 - 09:47 AM Sexual deviates must be purged from society along with Communists non believers liberals abortionists free thinkers and other enemies of the state. Only so can we build the glorius future. |
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Subject: RE: WELCOME NEW MUDCATTER POL POT ! From: GUEST,mgarvey@pacifier.com Date: 15 Mar 01 - 11:11 AM this is sick and exceeds human decency. If there are rules here about people posting under names equivalent to Adolph Hitler, I ask that they be enforced. mg |
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Subject: RE: WELCOME NEW MUDCATTER POL POT ! From: LR Mole Date: 15 Mar 01 - 11:36 AM You know, though...better that we know this stuff is there, I think, and treat it with civility. In the face of madness, quiet (and music) is preferable to more noise.--LR Mole, from the dark. |
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Subject: RE: WELCOME NEW MUDCATTER POL POT ! From: hesperis Date: 15 Mar 01 - 12:50 PM For an intelligent analysis of Pol Pot, just read flattop's posting in the early part of this thread...entitled: The Politics of War Criminality. That pretty well says it all. Now I think I'll (*yawn*) go back to tuning my guitar. - LH
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Subject: RE: WELCOME NEW MUDCATTER POL POT ! From: GUEST,The Yank Date: 15 Mar 01 - 12:56 PM I don't know, Mary, Pol hasn't said anything that MAV didn't- in fact Pol has been considerably more restrained and polite. I don't recall anyone saying MAV was "sick"- or calling for rules to be enforced. Surely what's allowed for one should be allowed for the other? In the spirit of tolerance and being non-judgemental? |
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Subject: RE: WELCOME NEW MUDCATTER POL POT ! From: GUEST,Melani Date: 15 Mar 01 - 01:47 PM I suppose we should welcome any new member, but membership implies a certain behavior standard. With any luck, MAV has interests other than being obnoxious. I must confess that since I currently have limited computer time, I did not even open any of the "Bushwhacked" threads, since they were so long and I had a pretty good idea what they were going to say. When I opened the "Welcome MAV" thread and saw some of the remarks, I went back and checked his/her posts and found them to be pretty nasty. I suppose some people use the anonymity of Mudcat to take out their aggressions. I find this annoying and don't really want to bother with it. I quite enjoyed older and wiser's irony, but then I have a perverted sense of humor. Now, does anyone want to discuss music? |
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Subject: RE: WELCOME NEW MUDCATTER POL POT ! From: Matt_R Date: 15 Mar 01 - 02:45 PM All through history the way of truth and love has always won. There have been tyrants and murderers, and for a time they can seem invincible, but in the end they always fall, always. --Mohandas Gandhi |
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Subject: RE: WELCOME NEW MUDCATTER POL POT ! From: mousethief Date: 15 Mar 01 - 02:46 PM How reassuring -- if your entire family is wiped out by the tyrant, I'm sure Ghandi's words will soothe all your ruffled feathers. |
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Subject: RE: WELCOME NEW MUDCATTER POL POT ! From: CarolC Date: 15 Mar 01 - 03:02 PM Ok, the question I have is this. Are we going to damage the Mudcat just so we can be right? That reminds me of the attitude the U.S. had in Vietnam where we did our best to destroy the counry in the name of saving it.
How much damage is enough damage? Are we willing to hurt innocent bystanders in the name of our cause? Does any one of us have the right to use the Mudcat to grind our particular axe, if we do it at the expense of the Mudcat, and at the expense of members who are not involved in our particular battles? If we do that, how is that any different than any of the regimes that sacrifice humanity in the name of the "cause"?
Having a hard time understanding this double standard. Damage is damage. Hate is hate. Flaming is flaming, whether you do it, or MAV does it, or Mother Theresa does it. It's destructive no matter who does it, and it's hypocrysy to point fingers at people for doing something we do ourselves. Carol |
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Subject: RE: WELCOME NEW MUDCATTER POL POT ! From: mousethief Date: 15 Mar 01 - 03:08 PM Responding to fire with fire. Responding to fire with self-righteousness. Not responding to fire. Pick one. |
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Subject: RE: WELCOME NEW MUDCATTER POL POT ! From: CarolC Date: 15 Mar 01 - 03:10 PM mousethief, what I am asking people to do is not respond to fire. What are you advocating? |
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Subject: RE: WELCOME NEW MUDCATTER POL POT ! From: mousethief Date: 15 Mar 01 - 03:14 PM Am I advocating anything? How about.... hmm.... Compassion for people who have been pushed too far? There's something to advocate. Also free speech. MAV has the right to spew his bile here, I guess, and thus we have the right to react as we see fit. And you have the right to say YOUR piece about the whole thing. Seems to me the system is working just as designed. |
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Subject: RE: WELCOME NEW MUDCATTER POL POT ! From: CarolC Date: 15 Mar 01 - 03:22 PM mousethief, the people who engaged in political discussions with MAV have done so out of choice. If these people didn't like MAV's tone or what he had to say, they had the option of not participating in the discussion.
However, when the Mudcat is damaged by flame wars, and damage does occur in the Mudcat during flame wars, innocent bystanders are hurt.
There's the difference. Carol |
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Subject: RE: WELCOME NEW MUDCATTER POL POT ! From: mousethief Date: 15 Mar 01 - 03:26 PM And the way to make it stop is to nag people like a schoolmarm? No offense. |
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Subject: RE: WELCOME NEW MUDCATTER POL POT ! From: CarolC Date: 15 Mar 01 - 03:28 PM Have you got any solutions, mousethief? |
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Subject: RE: WELCOME NEW MUDCATTER POL POT ! From: mousethief Date: 15 Mar 01 - 03:31 PM Let it run its course. People will get tired of it and it'll drop like a stone through a wet paper bag. |
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Subject: RE: WELCOME NEW MUDCATTER POL POT ! From: Matt_R Date: 15 Mar 01 - 03:32 PM Flame wars! You 2 haven't been around long enough to see what a REAL downhome flame war is like, when ever single thread is a flamewar, and there is no escape. Threads are hijacked for flaming, new flaming threads aimed at certain people are launched, flaming PMs and emails are launched, even the Mudcat auction taken over by the insanity. This is nothing, just a minor skirmish. I haven't read any GWB threads, and therefor am not offended. If you IGNORE the flamers, they will go away. I have, and I am content. |
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Subject: RE: WELCOME NEW MUDCATTER POL POT ! From: CarolC Date: 15 Mar 01 - 03:40 PM mousethief, that hasn't been my experience. My experience has been that flame wars, left to do their thing, tend to escalate to the level that Matt has described. Maybe there is a reason that the flame wars haven't escalated to that level in a while. Maybe it's because of the efforts of the many people currently in the Mudcat who are willing to put the welfare of this site above their own personal agendas. |
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Subject: RE: WELCOME NEW MUDCATTER POL POT ! From: mousethief Date: 15 Mar 01 - 03:41 PM So THAT's the secret to contentment? Sheesh, here the whole world has been searching for thousands of years, and Matt goes and figures it out in an afternoon. Who'd'a thunk? |
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Subject: RE: WELCOME NEW MUDCATTER POL POT ! From: mousethief Date: 15 Mar 01 - 03:45 PM Carol, seems to me the MAV threads are 3/4 of the way down the page, and slipping rapidly. This so-called flame war seems to have run its course. But what do I know? |
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Subject: RE: WELCOME NEW MUDCATTER POL POT ! From: Matt_R Date: 15 Mar 01 - 03:48 PM I meant content with MUDCAT! Geez Alex, stop being so sarcastic! |
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Subject: RE: WELCOME NEW MUDCATTER POL POT ! From: CarolC Date: 15 Mar 01 - 03:49 PM And what do you think would have happened if it had been allowed to run its course? |
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Subject: RE: WELCOME NEW MUDCATTER POL POT ! From: CarolC Date: 15 Mar 01 - 03:51 PM My last was to mousethief. |
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Subject: RE: WELCOME NEW MUDCATTER POL POT ! From: Biskit Date: 15 Mar 01 - 03:51 PM Mousethief, there is a difference between compassion and just being hateful and ugly, I have noticed lately on several threads, you have become the latter. Should we judge you for your being hateful, or try to correct you for spewing your bile of ugliness. Or commend you for your thoughtfulness on other threads, and hope that someday you'll return to your old self. I don't agree with MAV, or the majority of his far right opinions. But BY GOD I'll defend to the death his RIGHT to his opinion. PEACE,(through understanding)-Biskit- |
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Subject: RE: WELCOME NEW MUDCATTER POL POT ! From: mousethief Date: 15 Mar 01 - 03:55 PM Biskit: He hs the right to his opinion, however vilely expressed, but those who disagree wtih him, don't? If they say "he's spewing bile" then they're flaming, and to hell with 'em. Except that YOU are obviously allowed to say that I was spewing bile, adn that's NOT flaming. Of course nobody thinks it's flaming when THEY do it. Just when the other guy does. Carol, do you think it was your posts that killed the flame war? Time for ego reduction surgery. Matt, can't you take a little teasing? Sheesh. I thought you were content. Alex |
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Subject: RE: WELCOME NEW MUDCATTER POL POT ! From: CarolC Date: 15 Mar 01 - 03:57 PM I think I worded my second to last post badly. Alex, this thing that could have erupted into a flame war, and hopefully has not, was not allowed to run its course. |
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Subject: RE: WELCOME NEW MUDCATTER POL POT ! From: CarolC Date: 15 Mar 01 - 04:01 PM Alex, I may be stupider than I look. But as long as it appears to be working for me, I'm going to keep trying. It's the best I can do. |
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Subject: RE: WELCOME NEW MUDCATTER POL POT ! From: mousethief Date: 15 Mar 01 - 04:01 PM I'd say it DID run its course. What do you think constitutes NOT running the course? I'm willing to hear what you mean. |
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Subject: RE: WELCOME NEW MUDCATTER POL POT ! From: wysiwyg Date: 15 Mar 01 - 04:02 PM What I have been trying to do when I feel baited is THIS: Take a BREATH and another GO OUTSIDE play sniff the air SING A SONG OR SIX THEN see if a thread really needs my attention And if so-- which one? One that is building something ANYTHING and THEN if I have TIME read one like this just to SEE how my friends are doing. So that when they are ready to talk to laugh to ask questions to rethink it all I'll know what they mean. ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: WELCOME NEW MUDCATTER POL POT ! From: mousethief Date: 15 Mar 01 - 04:03 PM I don't know if you look stupid, Carol, your photo's not on the photo page. Must we plead and beg? |
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Subject: RE: WELCOME NEW MUDCATTER POL POT ! From: CarolC Date: 15 Mar 01 - 04:03 PM Well, I recall recently being accused of nagging people like a schoolmarm, Alex. |
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Subject: RE: WELCOME NEW MUDCATTER POL POT ! From: mousethief Date: 15 Mar 01 - 04:05 PM Thanks for the concrete poetry, Susan. Very nice. One of the fun things here is when a thread designed specifically for flaming gets turned around and made into something else. For instance this thread started as a spoof of another thread, and has turned into a semi-philosophical discussion about flaming and what constitutes "running its course." Could be a lot worse. |
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Subject: RE: WELCOME NEW MUDCATTER POL POT ! From: CarolC Date: 15 Mar 01 - 04:08 PM My last was in reference to mousethief's 4:01 pm post. This is getting too weird, even for me. Alex, my pictures can be found here. |
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Subject: RE: WELCOME NEW MUDCATTER POL POT ! From: mousethief Date: 15 Mar 01 - 04:10 PM Carol, which post were you responding to with the "schoolmarm" comment? I'm starting to get confused here. Part of the problem is that we can't know what MIGHT have happened or what WOULD have happened, so we can't at all figure out how much causality to assign to anything that actually happens. Sure, you nagged. Did that stop the flame war, or did it simply run out of steam? In my experience, they all run out of steam eventually, and all the earlier when there's not a spiteful anonymous "guest" to keep coming back and posting trollbait. This one looked about ready for the ashcan when you jumped in, Carol. So I'm unwilling at this point to assign the "blame" for the apparent death of the flamewar to your --for lack of a better word-- nagging. Alex |
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Subject: RE: WELCOME NEW MUDCATTER POL POT ! From: mousethief Date: 15 Mar 01 - 04:12 PM ON THE OTHER HAND, the fact that we hijacked this thread and turned it into a droll argument about how to deal with flame wars might itself have a lot to do with the flames dying down at roughly the same time. Rather than get caught up in an unwinnable argument about the nature of flame wars, the flamers just went off and found something else to do. Hmmmmm. |
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Subject: RE: WELCOME NEW MUDCATTER POL POT ! From: CarolC Date: 15 Mar 01 - 04:16 PM My point exactly, Alex. If you take the fun out of flaming, who's going to want to do it. All it takes is tenacity. |
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Subject: RE: WELCOME NEW MUDCATTER POL POT ! From: wysiwyg Date: 15 Mar 01 - 04:17 PM Sometimes the Mudcat is like a bitch in heat. Sometimes it's like PMS. Sometimes it's a leaping hard-on. Sometimes it's like church. Or school. Or a concert. Or a boxing match. Or a TV wrestling event. It's all here in some form all the time... sometimes the balance just goes yawing over one way or another... it can be any metaphor we choose, for a little while before it shrugs that one off too. Sometimes it sucks out of us everything we have. Sometimes it pours in everything we need. Strangely, or obviously, which way we experience it can depend on our own viewpoint. I think being connected to people is going to have this effect in any setting... the thing is, do you engage or do you not. And if so, with what mindset. We seem to be able to love more outrageously and openly here in MudCyberness; why is it a surprise we can hate with more finely tuned accuracy too, or magnify fears more exponentially? And it isn't just music people learn here either. Or creativity that we hone. What I love about the cycles of Mudcat is the obvious learning that occurs among those who stick around. No one seems to be able to avoid being affected in some poitive fashion, over a period of time. I think we don't look at that often enough. I learned me how to deal with all new sortsa shit this past year. It was hard work and I have more to learn, but I'se proud of a year's effort, and am willing to be proud of others' efforts as well. I look around, you know, and I see it. I hope others do too. ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: WELCOME NEW MUDCATTER POL POT ! From: Matt_R Date: 15 Mar 01 - 04:19 PM Might I take a moment to say what an absolute BABE Carol is? |
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Subject: RE: WELCOME NEW MUDCATTER POL POT ! From: CarolC Date: 15 Mar 01 - 04:23 PM *Blush* again, Matt. (Thanks) |
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Subject: RE: WELCOME NEW MUDCATTER POL POT ! From: mousethief Date: 15 Mar 01 - 04:23 PM I don't know about all this sucking everything out of leaping hard-ons, Susan. Sounds like maybe you need to get away for a private weekend with your hubby, but it's really too much information for the Mudcat. |
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Subject: RE: WELCOME NEW MUDCATTER POL POT ! From: mousethief Date: 15 Mar 01 - 04:24 PM I liked the poem better, Susan. So, Carol, when do the rest of us get to see what a babe you are? (Keep in mind that Matt thought my 3-day-old niece was a "hottie") Alex |
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Subject: RE: WELCOME NEW MUDCATTER POL POT ! From: wysiwyg Date: 15 Mar 01 - 04:29 PM 'Teef, did you grin? It warn't no pome neither. I just spaced it like that to give you some AIR. ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: WELCOME NEW MUDCATTER POL POT ! From: mousethief Date: 15 Mar 01 - 04:32 PM You never can tell with this modern poetry shit. It was good prose, too. Actually much better as prose (as is most modern poetry shit). Air I can dig. Well, not literally, but.... |
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Subject: RE: WELCOME NEW MUDCATTER POL POT ! From: CarolC Date: 15 Mar 01 - 04:32 PM mousethief, see my 15 April, 4:08 post to this thread. |
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Subject: RE: WELCOME NEW MUDCATTER POL POT ! From: CarolC Date: 15 Mar 01 - 04:33 PM That should say 4:08 PM. |
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Subject: RE: WELCOME NEW MUDCATTER POL POT ! From: CarolC Date: 15 Mar 01 - 04:36 PM ...and it should say 15 March. *sheesh* I'm getting tired. |
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Subject: RE: WELCOME NEW MUDCATTER POL POT ! From: mousethief Date: 15 Mar 01 - 04:53 PM Okay, good; I thought I was cracking up. March it is. You live in Orillia? Sheesh, there's too many of you guys. Nice pics. Pretty babe-oid. Too bad you have to play the accordion. (grin!) Alex |
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Subject: RE: WELCOME NEW MUDCATTER POL POT ! From: CarolC Date: 15 Mar 01 - 04:58 PM Thanks, Alex.
No, I don't live in Orillia. I spent about a month there recently. It's a great place. Carol |
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Subject: RE: WELCOME NEW MUDCATTER POL POT ! From: Matt_R Date: 15 Mar 01 - 05:16 PM See, I tooooooooold you! |
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Subject: RE: WELCOME NEW MUDCATTER POL POT ! From: mousethief Date: 15 Mar 01 - 05:20 PM Matt, I'll never doubt you again. |
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Subject: RE: WELCOME NEW MUDCATTER POL POT ! From: nutty Date: 15 Mar 01 - 05:47 PM I believe that if people were prevented from having multiple identities a lot of this "flaming,unpleasantness,etc" Could be prevented Mudcat as a community can have no credibility while members of Mudcat lack credibility IMO, certain Mudcat members, deliberately cause confusion by posting under various persona and use information that they have available to them to deliberately rile other members Are these "new" members really "new" or just old members who are bored and seeking to liven things up by being provoking??
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Subject: RE: WELCOME NEW MUDCATTER POL POT ! From: mousethief Date: 15 Mar 01 - 05:50 PM What really provokes me is double posts. |
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Subject: RE: WELCOME NEW MUDCATTER POL POT ! From: nutty Date: 15 Mar 01 - 06:11 PM Not done deliberately - a technological blip - can someone tell me how to prevent it??
sometimes the lag causes it to post twice..don't worry about it...it's why we exist |
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Subject: RE: WELCOME NEW MUDCATTER POL POT ! From: mousethief Date: 15 Mar 01 - 06:13 PM I know -- it was a joke, son. How not to do it? Don't press the button twice. |
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Subject: RE: WELCOME NEW MUDCATTER POL POT ! From: Little Hawk Date: 15 Mar 01 - 08:01 PM Carol - you said of yourself: "I may be stupider than I look." Naw. The only person on Mudcat you can say that about is Spaw. Hee! Hee! :-) By the way, the anonymous twit that started this thread by paraphrasing some of my philosophical musings (and inserting into them words like "mass murderer") apparently can't tell the difference between a conservative such as MAV...and a "mass murderer, dictator, and despot" ...i.e. Pol Pot. He's either an extremely sarcastic son of a bitch with little tendency toward either forgiveness, understanding or moderation...or he's experiencing delusions of paranoia comparable to Adolf Hitler's carpet-chewing tantrums, back in '44 and '45. I have a friend in the Orillia song circle who is considerably more right-wing than MAV. He has said things that would have raised sheer bloody hell on Mudcat. I seldom agree with any of his social or political opinions. But you know what else? He is honest, trustworthy, a totally dependable friend in time of need, and a very responsible and considerate man. His conduct as a human being is excellent. I'm glad to have him as a friend, though I don't expect that we will EVER agree about politics. So what? What difference does it make? He grew up in a different family than I did, and heard different stuff when he was young, that's all. Neither MAV nor my friend in Orillia are dictators, mass murderers, despots, rapists, or child molesters, or any other such ugly notion. They are conservatives. Maybe arch-conservatives. Fine. They haven't got horns growing out of their heads. The fact that I am a leftist/liberal does not imply to me that those on the other side of the political issues of my day are subhumans. I used to think they were, however, when I was young and foolish. So give it up and grow up. You may be older than me (that's questionable...), but you sure as hell are not wiser. - LH |
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Subject: RE: WELCOME NEW MUDCATTER POL POT ! From: GUEST,mgarvey@pacifier.com Date: 15 Mar 01 - 09:18 PM is no one else on this intercontinental group of people appalled by a post that says "welcome Pol Pot?" Would you be as tolerant about "welcome Hitler?" This is how evil spreads. I just don't understand how people can joke about this. I think we have wasted our collective outrage on who left the toilet seat up and can't attend to the truly horrible things that have gone on in our lifetimes and perhaps are gearing up for the near future. and whoever wrote something about the spirit of tolerance or whatever....there are things you should never be tolerant of. Never ever ever. mg |
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Subject: RE: WELCOME NEW MUDCATTER POL POT ! From: CarolC Date: 15 Mar 01 - 09:43 PM The behavior you're talking about was pretty nasty, mary garvey. They were using a particularly cutting form of sarcasm to try to make a point. I think it was in pretty bad taste. Are we going to be tolerant of it? I spent most of last night and almost all of today trying to convince people that this kind of behavior is destructive and serves no useful purpose. I don't think outrage would accomplish anything, though. It just doesn't seem to work very well on the internet. To everyone in general... are you going to let me get some sleep tonight? I'd really like to because my Italian accordion is supposed to arrive back from the shop tomorrow and I would dearly love to be able to enjoy it. Carol
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Subject: RE: WELCOME NEW MUDCATTER POL POT ! From: GUEST,The Yank Date: 15 Mar 01 - 09:57 PM So what? What difference does it make?
Well, lets see-- off the top of my head: |
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Subject: RE: WELCOME NEW MUDCATTER POL POT ! From: CarolC Date: 15 Mar 01 - 10:01 PM Aw, come on guys. You're not going to fix it here in the Mudcat. I guarantee it. If you want to fix what's wrong with society, go out into your communities and take care of what's wrong there.
It ain't going to happen here. Carol |
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Subject: RE: WELCOME NEW MUDCATTER POL POT ! From: katlaughing Date: 15 Mar 01 - 11:09 PM Carol, best thing you can do for a good night's sleep is to let it go. This has not turned into a flame war. Matt got that right, this is very mild and it will go away. I DO share Mary's concerns, though, and I would hope maybe, in her other thread, we can start a petition to maybe get the name of this thread changed. Don't know what to do, and I know Max and Joe are loath to do such things without the person who titled it asking for such, but I agree with Mary that it is really terrible to see that name as the heading of a thread at this site, esp. Of course, if we all just let it go and quit posting it will fall off and we won't have to see it anymore anyway. |
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Subject: RE: WELCOME NEW MUDCATTER POL POT ! From: CarolC Date: 15 Mar 01 - 11:24 PM kat/katlaughing, I'm sorry, but I don't share your optimism. The fact that there is now yet another thread that has the potential to become a flame magnet tells me that things could have gotten a lot uglier than they did, and still could. How about helping me out and joining me in asking people to behave responsibly in the Mudcat from now on? Carol |
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Subject: RE: WELCOME NEW MUDCATTER POL POT ! From: Little Hawk Date: 16 Mar 01 - 12:09 AM The Yank - Well, sure, it makes a difference in who you want to vote for. What the heck, I agree with you about all that social policy stuff. We appear to agree about virtually everything in terms of those kind of issues. But you misunderstand me. I meant, what difference does it make if I have a friendship with this one guy in my town that is based not on politics, but on a common love of music, despite the fact that we disagree on politics. I am not aiding or abetting conservative social policy here or anywhere else by doing that. Should I refuse to associate with him because he votes differently than I do? He's never done one bad thing to anyone I know, and he's been an excellent friend. I'm not saying you should vote for right-wingers. I'm not saying you should support them when they're in office. I'm not saying you should approve of their ideas on social policy. I'm not saying you should yield passively to anyone who tramples on human rights or threatens your life or property either, if it comes to that. We presently have a neo-conservative government in Ontario, Canada that has done trememdous damage to the social fabric of this province. I detest that government. I wouldn't vote for them under any circumstances. But...I know many individual conservatives in this town who did vote for them and who are perfectly fine people in a general sense, and I'm glad to know them. You can't define the entire person by their political stance. Often their idea of politics has been passed down to them through several generations, and that's how they see it. I don't find them to be less honest, less dependable, less idealistic, or less truthful on average than the liberals in this town. About dead equal, I'd say. Equal and opposite. So fine, vote against the conservative policies. I do. Just don't demonize conservatives as individuals. It doesn't achieve anything useful to do so. Oppose the policy, don't denigrate the individual, when that individual has done nothing more than to express an opinion about something that happens to differ from yours. The Pol Pot member name thing was in exceedingly bad taste, but you can't stop people from exercising bad taste when you live in a society that allows free speech. You can only try to set a good example yourself. Please do not imagine I am condoning injustice or recommending turning a blind eye to it. Not at all. As for Pol Pot, it's a pity that the USA (and China!) saw fit to fund him all those years, just to hurt Vietnam. As if Vietnam had not been hurt enough already...God knows. - LH p.s. Now someone else can pick a single phrase out of all that which pushes one of their buttons, and go ballistic, and away it all goes again...right? Try writing something that offends no one, and see if you can. Not easy, is it? |
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Subject: RE: WELCOME NEW MUDCATTER POL POT ! From: Greg F. Date: 16 Mar 01 - 07:18 AM You'd think the U.S. would learn after a while, wouldn't you, LH? Pol Pot, Pinochet, Saddam, the Contras, Manuel Noriega- the list is endless. An entitlement program for dictators, in the name of advancing freedom. Go figure. Best, Greg |
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Subject: RE: WELCOME NEW MUDCATTER POL POT ! From: chip a Date: 16 Mar 01 - 11:11 AM Thank you Little Hawk. Smile, Chip |
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Subject: RE: WELCOME NEW MUDCATTER POL POT ! From: mousethief Date: 16 Mar 01 - 11:20 AM Um, Little Hawk, I think the point was not that Mav is a murderous dictator. I think the point is rather that through his actions he has made himself unwelcome to many people here, and putting out a cheerful "welcome!" thread is kind of bizarre, in sort of the same way it would be bizarre to put out a cheerful "welcome!" thread for somebody like Pol Pot. Not that Mav is like Pol Pot except in this one thing: He's not terribly welcome. That's how I read it, anyway. Alex |
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Subject: RE: WELCOME NEW MUDCATTER POL POT ! From: GUEST,The Yank Date: 16 Mar 01 - 11:21 AM He's never done one bad thing to anyone I know.... I know many individual conservatives in this town who did vote for them and who are perfectly fine people in a general sense... I'm really amazed you see no contradiction. If he supports the sort of policies or political parties or groups that have brought about the type of things I listed, he's certainly at the very least contributed to doing a great number of "bad things" to a huge number of people you DON'T know. How are they "perfectly fine people"in a SPECIFIC sense, if they can perpetrate these sorts of things on others, or consider it appropriate for "others" to perpetrate them? In light of Edmund Burke's (attributed) sentiment The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing You may want to re-think 'what difference it makes'. |
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Subject: RE: WELCOME NEW MUDCATTER POL POT ! From: wysiwyg Date: 16 Mar 01 - 11:27 AM Could I please ask that if this MUST go to a second part, this thread, that it not be titled with the name of Pol Pot in it? I think it is clear that whether we agee that it SHOULD cause anyone pain, it IS causing some pain to see that name sent again and again to the top of the thread list. So I would ask that we not perpetuate that, at least. ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: WELCOME NEW MUDCATTER POL POT ! From: mousethief Date: 16 Mar 01 - 11:43 AM That's fair, Susan. |
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Subject: RE: WELCOME NEW MUDCATTER POL POT ! From: GUEST Date: 16 Mar 01 - 11:46 AM CONTINUED HERE
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Subject: RE: WELCOME NEW MUDCATTER POL POT ! From: katlaughing Date: 16 Mar 01 - 11:50 AM Continued HERE for those who wish to see the ill-named threads die down. |
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Subject: RE: WELCOME NEW MUDCATTER POL POT ! From: GUEST, Tito Date: 18 Mar 01 - 06:20 PM Go, Carol, you are doing a great job with the boycott. |
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Subject: RE: WELCOME NEW MUDCATTER POL POT ! From: Stonewall Date: 19 Mar 01 - 10:07 AM Waaaah. Stick a pacifier in it. You've had your chance with eight years of Clinton/Gore. Give it up. Let's talk music. |
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