BS: Sacrilege versus Heresy

Subject: Sacrilege versus Heresy
From: Mrrzy
Date: 22 Mar 01 - 12:25 PM

The discussion of Can you be an academic success outside academe reminded me of the big discussion I was just in with a friend about whether these 2 terms are synomyms. I think there are nuances of meaning (no dictionaries in this game) - I use Heresy for human acts, attitudes, and behaviors that counter whatever religious doctrine considers those acts, attitudes and behaviors heretical. I use Sacrilege for forbidden acts concerning physical objects considered sacred by whatever religious doctrine both considers those objects to be sacred and those acts to be forbidden. So using rosary beads for benwa balls is sacrilege, but telling your fellow nuns about it would be heresy. What do you all think? Just curious...

Subject: RE: BS: Sacrilege versus Heresy
From: Bert
Date: 22 Mar 01 - 12:29 PM

Heresy is talk, sacrilege is action.

Subject: RE: BS: Sacrilege versus Heresy
From: MMario
Date: 22 Mar 01 - 12:31 PM

interesting example.

I'd say that about sums it up.

Subject: RE: BS: Sacrilege versus Heresy
From: IanC
Date: 22 Mar 01 - 01:00 PM

My understanding is slightly different.

Basically, with heresy, your belief systems are no longer those of the established group. You become an outsider, a heretic, and it is unlikely that you ever will get back into the group. In mediaeval christianity, you will be burned at the stake, along with any followers you may have.

With sacrilege, you retain the group belief system and remain part of the group but your actions put you "beyond the pale" at least temporarily. In mediaeval christianity, you will have to perform some penance, but you may well get away with your life and your associates are unlikely to be branded as followers.

Heresy is thus the more drastic.

Cheers!
Ian

Subject: RE: BS: Sacrilege versus Heresy
From: GUEST,Anon2
Date: 22 Mar 01 - 01:03 PM

All I ever dicovered is that one man's heresy is another man's orthodoxy.

Subject: RE: BS: Sacrilege versus Heresy
From: mousethief
Date: 22 Mar 01 - 01:28 PM

I think the words/action thing sums it up, at least partly. It should also be said that you can perform an act of sacrilege without believing anything heretical. For instance you could be angry at God, and urinate in the baptismal font, which is sacrilegious, and still believe all the creeds and canons and what-not.

Indeed, sacrilege is most devastating when performed by a believer and not a heretic. If you don't believe what we believe, then it's hardly to be expected that you will have the same feelings about holy things and actions that we do. Or you just might not know better. For instance, a gentile man not having his head covered in an orthodox Jewish synagogue.

But if a believer performs one of the verboten actions, knowing full well they oughtn't, it really says something.

Of course they might be on the trailing edge of believerdom and about to leap off the train (he said, mixing his metaphors horrendously). Or might have just had a really bad day/week/month/fortnight, and be pissed off at the Deity and a little irrational.

But that's a whole different question, viz., what motivations lie behind sacrilege in a real believer (i.e. a believer in the thing s/he's being sacrilegious about).

Great thread.

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: Sacrilege versus Heresy
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 22 Mar 01 - 02:18 PM

People are often confused about "sacrilege", its meaning and its spelling, because they don't understand that roots of the word, and thus the concept. You'll sometimes see it spelled or pronounced as "sacreligious", thinking that the part of the word after the R is "religious". Not so.

The word "sacrilege" is from "sacri" or some form of it, meaning sacred things, and "lego", to steal. Thus, to misappropriate or steal things (or ideas) which are dedicated to sacred use is sacrilege.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Sacrilege versus Heresy
From: M.Ted
Date: 22 Mar 01 - 02:38 PM

A sacrilege is a willful act of desecration, and, generally, in order for it to qualify, it has to be done with full knowledge that it is in fact a sacrilege. A heresy, on the other hand, the teaching or ideas that have been determined to be inconsistant with or contrary to the teachings of the church.

For teachings to be heretical, they have to be judged or ruled heretical, after that, teaching of them constitutes a heresy. The rules could be changed, of course, but generally, simply desisting would get you off the hook,though a recantation never hurt.

A certain times, such as during the inquisition, desisting and recanting would assure that your soul would ascend when you were burned at the stake--an advantage that we tend not to appreciate today--

Subject: RE: BS: Sacrilege versus Heresy
From: GUEST,g3(intruder) at work
Date: 22 Mar 01 - 02:47 PM

additionally, sacrilege may be committed by anyone while heresy is a more internal "family" thing.
as i once said to a friend...
'tis blasphemy only if you're within your own religious structure

Subject: RE: BS: Sacrilege versus Heresy
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Mar 01 - 02:52 PM

heresy: Saying that Bob Dylan can't sing, can't write a decent song, and has nothing to say that's worth listening to, anyway.

sacrilege: Taking your old Bob Dylan records to the local hock shop and trading them for Whitney Houston CD's.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Sacrilege versus Heresy
From: M.Ted
Date: 22 Mar 01 - 03:19 PM

Ah, Blasphemy! We left that one out--now we have to go back and start all over again--What's the difference between Heresy, Blaspemy, and Sacrilege and which one did we do?

Subject: RE: BS: Sacrilege versus Heresy
From: mousethief
Date: 22 Mar 01 - 03:28 PM

Blasphemy means speaking ill of the deity, don't it?

"the act of insulting or showing contempt or lack of reverence for God" according to Webster's Online.

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: Sacrilege versus Heresy
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 22 Mar 01 - 03:29 PM

Who is this "Bob Dylan" you speak of?*

*heathenism

Subject: RE: BS: Sacrilege versus Heresy
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Mar 01 - 06:01 PM

Heathenism indeed, LEJ!!! :-)

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Sacrilege versus Heresy
From: mousethief
Date: 22 Mar 01 - 06:07 PM

If this be heathenism, let's hear it for the heathens!

Subject: RE: BS: Sacrilege versus Heresy
From: guest(intruder-inactive)
Date: 23 Mar 01 - 04:43 AM

(over in the "pagans lined up for hell and loving it corner")

seen 'em come, seen 'em go
Mother is always here

Subject: RE: BS: Sacrilege versus Heresy
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Mar 01 - 06:40 AM

I've always thought of sacrilege as the disrespectful treatment of something that somebody else holds sacred. My Webster's New World Dictionary agrees:

the intentional desecration or disrespectful treatment of a person, place, thing, or idea held sacred

Heresy is anything that's contrary to my way of thinking....
Webster's New World Dictionary says it's any opinion opposed to official or established views or doctrines, which is probably a polite way of telling me that it's my way of thinking that's heresy, not the other way around.

-Joe Offer, Theology major-

Subject: RE: BS: Sacrilege versus Heresy
From: gnu
Date: 23 Mar 01 - 07:15 AM

Heresy, Blasphemy, and Sacrilege....

Using rosary beads for benwa balls is sacrilege.

Telling your fellow nuns about it would be heresy.

Telling a particular past girlfriend of mine that rosary beads are a good substitute for benwa balls would be blasphemy.

reflectivegnu

Subject: RE: BS: Sacrilege versus Heresy
From: Mrrzy
Date: 23 Mar 01 - 09:14 AM

OK, now, Mousethief, Joe Offer, you're cheating. The rules clearly stated, no dictionaries.

But this is still fascinating, and yes, we did leave out blasphemy...
My take is that blasphemy is language, not any other action, and involves specific prohibitions like taking the Lord's name in vain. If what you say hasn't been forbidden before, it's heresy...? Kinda like the first time a something is committed that ought to be a crime, it's not a crime till they pass a law against it...Also, yes the ROOT of sacrilege is theft of sacred objects, by now in usage, you can do more to sacred objects than steal them. I would say in gnu's above example, if his old girlfriend is a goddess and told him never ever to tell her where to stick her rosaries, then yes, that's blasphemy.

(I'm just having fun here, don't be bugged anybody!)

Subject: RE: BS: Sacrilege versus Heresy
From: GUEST,manna
Date: 23 Mar 01 - 08:58 PM

I understand blasphemy to mean putting yourself on equal footing with God. This is what got Jesus into trouble, claiming to be Bob Dylan's equal

Subject: RE: BS: Sacrilege versus Heresy
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Mar 01 - 09:13 PM

Actually, it wasn't Jesus who claimed to be Bob Dylan's equal...no, no...it was his disciples who claimed he was Bob Dylan's equal! This was blasphemous indeed! Jesus would never have claimed any such thing. As usual, he got in trouble because of certain other people's big mouths...

It's a Hard Rain's A-Gonna Fall...

:-)

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Sacrilege versus Heresy
From: M.Ted
Date: 23 Mar 01 - 11:27 PM

You mean Bob Dylan's disciples--

Subject: RE: BS: Sacrilege versus Heresy
From: Amergin
Date: 24 Mar 01 - 02:49 AM

Bob Dylan has disciples? LH, Bob Dylan can't sing....and you have to admit that he has written quite a few duds.....I mean really She makes love just like a woman....I would certainly hope she doesn't make love like a man....

Subject: RE: BS: Sacrilege versus Heresy
From: Terry K
Date: 24 Mar 01 - 03:25 AM

So Amergin, you're just giving us some examples huh? I think you just covered heresy, blasphemy and sacrilege all at once.

Subject: RE: BS: Sacrilege versus Heresy
From: Amos
Date: 25 Mar 01 - 12:43 AM

And the auld flute was banned, and it's fate was pathetic --
It was tied up and burned at the stake as her-ET-ic!
And as the flames rose, there came a strange noise:
That flute was still whistling "The Protestant Boys"!

sounds a lot better to me than:

The old flute was banned and its fate was anemic
It was tied up and burned at the stake as blasphemic!

But flames by a miracle were put out by rain,

Fer taking the sound of good music in vain!

Regards and good night,

A

Subject: RE: BS: Sacrilege versus Heresy
From: John Nolan
Date: 25 Mar 01 - 09:06 AM

George Crabb's English Synonyms (1816) is an indispensible work in cases like this. He painstakingly explains the shades of meaning separating heterodoxy and heresy, and later on - sacrilegious, irreverent and desecrating. Looked at through his microscope, sacrilege and heresy aren't even close. But for all his great powers, George never wrote a song ...

Subject: RE: BS: Sacrilege versus Heresy
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Mar 01 - 10:20 AM

LOL...Amos, I might just have to steal that one! 30 years of singing "The Old Orange Flute", and that's the first decent tweak of it I ever saw!

Subject: RE: BS: Sacrilege versus Heresy
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Mar 01 - 12:29 PM

Amergin - Odd that you should pick my favourite Dylan song of all time as an example of bad songwriting! Oh, ye gods of strange and ironical circumstance! Bob has indeed written a few duds, but not THAT one.

And you say that he can't sing??? Oh, you poor, misguided soul! I have nothing but compassion for you.

There are some who are simply beyond help in a given incarnation, and I fear that you may be one of those.

Now, where were we? :-)

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Sacrilege versus Heresy
From: Don Firth
Date: 25 Mar 01 - 12:46 PM

Bob who?

Subject: RE: BS: Sacrilege versus Heresy
From: Terry K
Date: 25 Mar 01 - 12:49 PM

Anyone who says Dylan can't sing is just completely missing the point - Hawk you're right, all we can do is feel sorry for those not blessed in the way we are. It reminds me of when my parents said Elvis was just an awful noise.

Cheers, Terry

Subject: RE: BS: Sacrilege versus Heresy
From: Justa Picker
Date: 25 Mar 01 - 02:19 PM

Sacrilege = refinishing a pre-war D-28

Heresy = conversions (taking vintage straight braced instruments and scalloping the braces)

Subject: RE: BS: Sacrilege versus Heresy
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Mar 01 - 03:59 PM

If a Muslim had prayed to those statues of the Buddha, that would have been heresy. When the Taliban destroyed them, that was sacrilege.