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irish tunes that became old timey tunes
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Subject: irish tunes that became old timey tunes From: GUEST,petr Date: 09 Jul 01 - 09:39 PM ok I just came back from a wonderful week Fiddletunes Festival in Port Townsend Washington. Lovely weather and great line up (Bruce Molsky, Frank Ferrel, Brad Leftwich, Seamus Connoly, Rodney Miller and many more) . One workshop that I missed but I have a friend making me a tape is the evolution of tunes that made it from Ireland and became old time tunes. The workshop was Bruce Molsky and Seamus Connolly Some of the tunes that I remember were Mrs Macleods of Raasay -> Did you ever go to Heaven Uncle Joe, Paddy on the turnpike -> Wild Hog in the red Brush Boats Of Killaloe? -> Acorn Stomp there were some more that I will post later but Im wondering what other tunes people can come up with. On another note, the french Canadian tune Reel Beatrice was attributed to a Quebecois fiddle player in the 40s who had a shortwave radio and tried to remember some Italian tune but ended creating his own in the process. Cheers Petr |
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Subject: RE: irish tunes that became old timey tunes From: GUEST Date: 09 Jul 01 - 11:06 PM "Mrs. Mcleod of Rasay' was communicated to Niel Gow (Strathspey Reels, bk 5) by Mr. McLeod, a composer. It's Scots. Paddy on the turnpike is a variant of "The Waukin of the fauld"-[Scots from 1733] |
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Subject: RE: irish tunes that became old timey tunes From: Aidan Crossey Date: 10 Jul 01 - 04:10 AM "The Red Haired Boy" otherwise known as "The Little Beggarman". There are rakes of hornpipes which survived the journey across the water - Soldier's Joy, Fisher's, The Devil's Dream, etc. |
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Subject: RE: irish tunes that became old timey tunes From: GUEST,PETR Date: 10 Jul 01 - 12:52 PM ok, actually I knew Mrs MaCleods was a scottish tune I should have added Old world tunes Rather than Irish specifically. |
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Subject: RE: irish tunes that became old timey tunes From: GUEST,GaryDon Date: 10 Jul 01 - 01:21 PM A Bunch of Keys; Cherokee Shuffel; and Ebinezer are few that I play and noted the Irish heritage Gary |
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Subject: RE: irish tunes that became old timey tunes From: Mrrzy Date: 10 Jul 01 - 01:23 PM Mrs Macleods of Raasay -> Did you ever go to Heaven Uncle Joe, Paddy on the turnpike -> Wild Hog in the red Brush Boats Of Killaloe? -> Acorn Stomp
Is it only me? I haven't heard of ANY of these. I hae heard of The Little Beggerman at least - so I guess my question becomes, define old timey please? And what are the others, this is very interesting? Did Turkey In The Straw make it into this list? What about Sweet Betsy From Pike? I ask about Turkey because I don't know any words to it other than the commercials that use it, and about Betsy because the CB&TM use that tune for so many Irish songs... |
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Subject: RE: irish tunes that became old timey tunes From: Mrrzy Date: 10 Jul 01 - 01:23 PM Mrs Macleods of Raasay -> Did you ever go to Heaven Uncle Joe, Paddy on the turnpike -> Wild Hog in the red Brush Boats Of Killaloe? -> Acorn Stomp
Is it only me? I haven't heard of ANY of these. I hae heard of The Little Beggarman at least - so I guess my question becomes, define old timey please? And what are the others, this is very interesting? Did Turkey In The Straw make it into this list? What about Sweet Betsy From Pike? I ask about Turkey because I don't know any words to it other than the commercials that use it, and about Betsy because the CB&TM use that tune for so many Irish songs... |
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Subject: RE: irish tunes that became old timey tunes From: Sorcha Date: 10 Jul 01 - 01:38 PM Turkey(s) in the Straw does indeed make the list. Has words, too. There are several in the DT, but this is the one I know.
Lots of stuff came across and gathered new words: |
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Subject: RE: irish tunes that became old timey tunes From: Irish sergeant Date: 10 Jul 01 - 01:46 PM Turkey in the Straw shares the same tune with Old Zip Coon. The lryics of which are now a days deemed racist. Likewise The Streets of Laredo is derived from the BArd of Armagh. Kindest reguards, neil |
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Subject: RE: irish tunes that became old timey tunes From: GUEST,petr Date: 10 Jul 01 - 02:50 PM I guess I just assumed that everyone on the mudcat knows the term old time music, which is what Fiddletunes is pretty much about. I would say this is my understanding of old time = dance music played by fiddle and banjo (primarily) originating from the Irish/Scottish tradition on the one side and West African on the other with some other influences thrown in. regionally the Fiddle styles in the US and to some extent Canada that would be sometimes called southern mountain or appallachian. old time is the predecessor of bluegrass and country (although country & western includes cowboy music) the difference between bluegrass and old time is that old time was primarily dance music and bluegrass is performance music and bluegrass features solos or breaks wheareas old time doesnt. A lot of old time tunes include singing. Tunes in the repertoire, Turkey in the straw arkansas traveler bile them cabbage down lady of the lake liza jane soldiers joy 8th of january (which was turned into a pop tune in the 60s) chicken reel cluck old hen little red rooster (and many more this is just going off the top of my head) Id say that in recent years old time music has seen quite a revival mainly because of workshop festivals like THe Fest. of American fiddle tunes in Port Townsend which just celebrated the 25th anniv. and was an influence on a few other festivals such as CLifftop. some of the other American fiddle styles such as New England (primarily for contra dance music rather than square dance) its a lot cleaner and sounds closer to Irish scottish and French canadian. Theres cajun, texas swing as well.( texas swing is probably the last style to emerge from old time) A lot of old time fiddle music features cross tuning AEAE, ADAE and a few others so it can take advantage of sympathetic ringing as much of the music involves double stops and particular bow shuffle patterns. But the styles can vary quite a bit ie. virginia sounds a lot different than the kentucky style. anyway thats what I can think of for now peter |
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Subject: RE: irish tunes that became old timey tunes From: ard mhacha Date: 10 Jul 01 - 03:05 PM Sorcha, The Bard of Armagh, The Streets of Laredo and The Old Homing Waltz, that poor oul melody went through the wringer. Slan Ard Mhacha. |
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Subject: RE: irish tunes that became old timey tunes From: ard mhacha Date: 10 Jul 01 - 03:08 PM Sorry, Should have added Sweet Betsy from Pike, here in Ireland the air was on many songs including Master McGrath. Slan Ard Mhacha. |
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Subject: RE: irish tunes that became old timey tunes From: Mary in Kentucky Date: 10 Jul 01 - 03:34 PM The Irish Jaunting Car/Bonnie Blue Flag |
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Subject: RE: irish tunes that became old timey tunes From: ard mhacha Date: 10 Jul 01 - 04:28 PM Guest petr, Garryowen,used by Custers 7th, The Irish Volunteer air The Irish Jaunting Car,and St Patricks Day. Also read the booklet on David Kincaids CD The Irish Volunteer, you will find that almost all of the songs in the US Civil War were irish airs.Slan Ard Mhacha. |
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Subject: RE: irish tunes that became old timey tunes From: ard mhacha Date: 10 Jul 01 - 04:29 PM Guest petr, Garryowen,used by Custers 7th, The Irish Volunteer air The Irish Jaunting Car,and St Patricks Day. Also read the booklet on David Kincaids CD The Irish Volunteer, you will find that almost all of the songs in the US Civil War were irish airs.Slan Ard Mhacha. |
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Subject: RE: irish tunes that became old timey tunes From: Helen Date: 10 Jul 01 - 07:29 PM About a week ago I started a thread about an Old Timey fiddle music site I found. http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=36089&messages=5 http://www.homestead.com/hetzler/music_2.html As I said in the other thread, the fiddle music in the MIDIs seems to have been done on a fiddle and not computer generated, so the fiddle effects are really good to hear. There are lots of tunes to listen to, and also a part of the site where you can learn to play along. Helen |
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Subject: RE: irish tunes that became old timey tunes From: GUEST,Russ Date: 11 Jul 01 - 09:47 AM The Faery Reel -> Old Mollie Hare |
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Subject: RE: irish tunes that became old timey tunes From: GUEST,chrisj Date: 11 Jul 01 - 10:23 AM "Streets of Laredo' has same or very similar air as 'The Bard of Armagh' and 'Bold Robert Emmett'. I don't know which of the latter two is the older. |
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Subject: RE: irish tunes that became old timey tunes From: Mrrzy Date: 11 Jul 01 - 01:07 PM I sing both The Street of Laredo and The Bard of Armagh and had never noticed the similarity till now! Neat-O! |
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Subject: RE: irish tunes that became old timey tunes From: ard mhacha Date: 11 Jul 01 - 01:42 PM Guest,chrisj, Sorry but "Bold Robert Emmett" is not close to the air of "The Bard of Armagh", listen again. Slan Ard Mhacha. |
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Subject: RE: irish tunes that became old timey tunes From: GUEST,petr Date: 11 Jul 01 - 02:16 PM also whiskey before breakfast, temperance reel, girl I left behind me, thanks for the note above about Custers favorite the Garryowen jig (I forgot about that) I had the understanding that quite a few Irish soldiers served in the civil war. Petr |
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Subject: RE: irish tunes that became old timey tunes From: GUEST,Murray on Saltspring Date: 11 Jul 01 - 02:44 PM Turkey in the Straw / Old Zip Coon = The Rose Tree, Irish, but often used by Scots. |
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Subject: RE: irish tunes that became old timey tunes From: ard mhacha Date: 11 Jul 01 - 02:45 PM Guest,petr, More than quiet a few, the irish in the US Civil War were numerous in both the Union and Confederate sides. The airs of the songs they brought across were soon given words that applied to the conflict. Slan Ard Mhacha. |
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Subject: RE: irish tunes that became old timey tunes From: GUEST,Murray on Saltspring Date: 15 Jul 01 - 01:01 AM CORRECTION Sorry, I wasn't thinking when I aid that "Turkey in the Straw" = "The Rose Tree". My Irish-cum-Scottish Index [which steals one or two facts from W. B. Olson, bless him!] is as follows: Turkey in the Straw O'Neill Waifs & Strays (1922), 125 (no. 237). Key G, Cut time. From John McFadden(Chicago Irish Music Club), from Dan Emmett of Bryant's Minstrels [should be performed in "slow reel time" says O'Neill]. As to its origin, as Old Zip Coon it appeared in Howe's Collections c. 1850, and possibly earlier. Alderman Silas Leachman of Chicago (a native of Kentucky) wrote perhaps the best of several songs on the theme, and popularity of this (or others) relegated the old title to obscurity. Since the pioneers of West Virginia, Kentucky and Tennessee were largely of Irish ancestry, their music [varied as time went on] was Irish too. O'Neill adduces a possible ancestor of Old Zip Coon/Turkey in the Straw, namely The Kinnegad Slashers, which is also in his Music of Ireland (1903), 168 (#901), as a double jig, with alternate titles: Land of Sweet Erin; The Powers of Whiskey; Bannocks of Barley Meal. He takes it from O'Farrell's Pocket Companion for the Irish or Union Pipes (1804-10). The "Bannocks" title is from the Scottish set, in Scots Musical Museum #560, Bannocks of Barley Meal. The commentator Stenhouse, SMM Illustrations, thought the tune was Gaelic, while G. F. Graham, Songs of Scotland, II (1853), thought it was Irish. The Scottish words are 18th-century, so it's not impossible that an Irish tune was "borrowed" circa 1750.
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Subject: RE: irish tunes that became old timey tunes From: BanjoRay Date: 15 Jul 01 - 06:44 PM Wexford Lasses -> West Fork Gals Cheers |
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Subject: RE: irish tunes that became old timey tunes From: Ebbie Date: 16 Jul 01 - 02:22 AM What a fun thread! I had no idea so many of the tunes we play were originally Irish. Guest Gary/Don, so Cherokee Shuffle is one of them? I ask because a friend wrote a wonderful, very Irish song about her grandfather to its tune but is a little embarrassed by it because Cherokee Shuffle doesn't seem Irish. I'll be happy to tell her otherwise. Can someone give me the name of the old tune? Thanks. Ebbie |
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Subject: RE: irish tunes that became old timey tunes From: paddymac Date: 16 Jul 01 - 03:48 AM In round numbers, there were 100,000 irish born men in the union armies, and 40,000 in confederate armies. |
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