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Help: PM Etiquette
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Subject: Help: PM Etiquette From: CarolC Date: 16 Jul 01 - 04:49 PM I want it known that I am not starting this thread frivolously. My stomach has been in knots since yesterday and I'm losing sleep over this.
But I've been put in a terrible position, and the only way I know of to defend myself is to do something that is considered in bad form.
I have had an accusation made against me that I maintain is not true, about something I allegedly said to another Mudcatter in a Personal Message. And what I have been accused of doing is so terrible to me, personally, that I feel I must defend myself against the accusation. Can anyone please tell of some other way I can defend myself against such an accusation without posting the contents of the PMs in question? I can't see any way to defend against such an accusation without doing so. The only proof is in the PMs. Thank you sincerely for any help. Please do not turn this thread into a battle. I genuinely need some help.
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Subject: RE: Help: PM Etiquette From: wysiwyg Date: 16 Jul 01 - 05:17 PM Carol, I have quite a bit of experience with this, and my BEST advice to you is to work on what came up for you about this in some supportive time with a caring person who will not judge positively or negatively, but just let you vent and look at the feelings so you can rethink some of the reactions you are having. Then, you will have the slack to work on communications issues with the person concerned in e-mail directly, and to ask a mutually trusted third person to facilitate or mediate of possible, if the other person agrees. Also, do some present-time things to get your attention off what happened. It did happen (whatever, from your view, it was), but it is over now and there is all the time in the world to work it out. It is not urgent, altho I am sure it FEELS very urgent. People here actually already have whatever opinion of you they have... and those who know you well already see the situation with some detachment I think. What you need to remember is not to let it swamp your own program for daily wellbeing, whatever yours is, because that is where your own forward progress always lies. The model I use for all of what I am describing is described in detail at www.rc.com and I can recommend it highly. I just purchased a set of their videos and they are available to lend if you are interested. I also have an e-mailable attachment of the basic teaching materials that are available at that site, if you want to start using the tools they describe, and you can do that in person or online with anyone who will agree to practice with you. At no cost, and without someone telling you how to run your own head. I will be back online sporadically until Thursday and can talk with you further then. ~Susan
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Subject: RE: Help: PM Etiquette From: SDShad Date: 16 Jul 01 - 05:19 PM Carol-- I'm an old Usenet hand--about 10 years, so it's since the Great Renaming, and admittedly a lot of that has been lurking, but point is I've been around online forums (fora?) for quite a long time and like to think I more or less know where my towel is. What one can and can't post of private email in a newsgroup is more or less analagous to PMs and Mudcat threads, so here goes: Of course, the first thing to realize is that no (or at least almost no) digital communication can be guaranteed to remain private. It's not illegal for someone to post in public an email sent to them in private, but it is considered very bad netiquette. So don't assume that any message you have sent can be kept private, and tread lightly--very, very lightly--around even considering posting the private words of another. There's no official, legal censure to it, but there is a strong personal and social one. As for messages you yourself have sent in private, I'd say you're more free to post their contents, since you own the words. People have done this in e-forums for eons. Of course--and especially if the issue at hand is fairly heated--this can put the other correspondent into the position of having to post his or her own private words if he or she feels it's the only way to refute/explain/counterattack/whatever. So, posting your own private words, while more socially acceptable, can easily become a way to out someone's private words to you without posting them yourselves, and for that reason should be treaded around lightly as well. I am aware of the specific issue that is at concern for you here (as aware as can be from what little's been said about it in other threads I've skimmed), but I hope that that what I'm saying here isn't tainted either positively or negatively by those very real issues. I seek to answer your query at as objective, neutral, and theoretical a level as possible. I hope it helps. Best, Chris |
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Subject: RE: Help: PM Etiquette From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 16 Jul 01 - 05:21 PM Is it the recipient of the PM that makes the accusation? I suppose it must be; otherwise he/she wouldn't even know there was a PM. Seems to me the only way to clear this controversy up is to publish the entire correspondence. Of course I don't know (and don't particularly want to know) any of the (alleged) content of the PM(s), and so don't know why that might be abhorrent to you and/or the recipient. If you and/or the recipient are unwilling to publish what you acknowledge is the only proof, looks like your only recourse is your factual denial, here and in any other thread which brings it up. If the recipient is the accuser, you might think of challenging him/her to publish the whole correspondence as proof of his/her accusations, to "Put your money where your mouth is" so to speak, announcing that if he/she doesn't, and doesn't withdraw the charges, or if you feel the offered text is the correct text, you are ready to publish your version. Then, of course, you're back to much the same position--"He said/she said". Sorry not to have a more helpful suggestion. Clearly a messy situation all around. Dave Oesterreich |
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Subject: RE: Help: PM Etiquette From: Jon Freeman Date: 16 Jul 01 - 05:23 PM Carol, I have sent you a PM. I would suggest it is in everones best interest that the matter was dropped. Jon |
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Subject: RE: Help: PM Etiquette From: Bill D Date: 16 Jul 01 - 05:24 PM said my piece privately... |
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Subject: RE: Help: PM Etiquette From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 16 Jul 01 - 05:26 PM Of course in the next-to-last paragraph I meant "is NOT the correct text". Dave Oesterreich |
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Subject: RE: Help: PM Etiquette From: SDShad Date: 16 Jul 01 - 05:26 PM Uhm, oops. Make tht "posting them yourself," not "posting them yourselves" above. I've never seen any indication of multiple or disassociative personalities in any of CarolC's postings. *bg* Now my postings are another matter entirely. What can I say; we're a Gemini! Chris |
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Subject: RE: Help: PM Etiquette From: dwditty Date: 16 Jul 01 - 05:28 PM Hi Susan, I notice that www.rc.com is the site for a law firm. Are you suggesting that this issue go to litigation? Lord, I hope not! CarolC, please don't think I am judging either side, but when I reached my breaking point in dealing with my ex, I refused to continue any conversation that she started with the word "You" or the word "I." After hanging up several times, she got the point and we were able to have some productive conversations. I hope you find peace soon. dw |
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Subject: RE: Help: PM Etiquette From: katlaughing Date: 16 Jul 01 - 05:47 PM a little thread drift: According to this site at MIT(Fora is the plural of forum, in the same way that media is the plural of medium - tacking an 's' on the end of a neuter nominative singular is tacky). Funny thing is, when checking 3 different online Latin dictionary sources, none of them list "fora" as meaning a plural for forum. My hardcopy one is packed, so I can't check it. Sorry...it just was bugging me, kat
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Subject: RE: Help: PM Etiquette From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull Date: 16 Jul 01 - 06:01 PM I admit I know very little about this or similar situations,(I've only been on the internet 3 months) but my advice is-try to forget all about it, and listen to some of your favourite music, if it is making you ill with worry maybe you could post your message somewhere relevant if it will make you feel better,sorry I dont know where,by somewhere relevant I mean somewhere where other people dont get involved.I think if 2 people are arguing it is better for everybody if nobody else gets involved, then there is less chance of other people arguing. I think it could be ok now anyway, because you made this thread and said "I didn't say that bad thing" (whatever it was you are accused of saying) and you friends will believe you, and nobody has come to this thread and said "yes you did" so it should be ok now.hope this help you.john |
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Subject: Lingua Pulcherrima Latina From: Joe Offer Date: 16 Jul 01 - 06:36 PM "Forum" is a second declension neuter noun. The plural is "fora," in both the nominative and accusative case. Dictionaries usually list just the singular nominative and genitive case. Thanks for the chance to use my Latin, Kat. All my dead language teachers will be proud of me. My favorite dead language teacher was Father Daniel York, an extraordinary teacher with a gruff manner, a deep voice, and a wild sense of humor. He used to say: Exactly so, as George would say;I have no idea what that means, but Fr. York is dead from smoking too many Chesterfields, so I'll have to say it for him. I'm sure he'll be proud that I remembered a bit of what he taught me. Hell, I even remember his brand of cigarettes because he brought his Rambler to our carwash fundraiser every week and I had to get the nicotine off his windshield. I first had Fr. York as a professor when I first entered the seminary as a pious young freshman in high school. The third person singular of scio (I know) is scit, pronounced SHIT in church Latin. When we recited the conjugation of that verb, our voices would get a little week when we got to scit, and Fr. York would stop us and have us shout SHIT!! at the top of our lungs. In Greek class in our senior year of high school, he taught us that typhlos ta toe te ton te noon te tomat ei means, basically, "you are a stupid ass." Ah, such wonderful memories.... -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: Help: PM Etiquette From: Sorcha Date: 16 Jul 01 - 06:49 PM Ah, Joe, what a lovely story! (hang in, man, and don't let the ba****ds get you down) |
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Subject: RE: Help: PM Etiquette From: Gary T Date: 16 Jul 01 - 07:16 PM Carol, if you posted a message that said something that could be seen to have been misconstrued into that which you are accused of saying, the PM might shed light on the issue. But unless others can be assured of seeing EVERY PM you have sent to the accuser, you can't prove that you DIDN'T say whatever it was in some OTHER PM. It seems to me it's up to the accuser to offer proof of the allegations, not up to the accused to offer proof against them. It's usually impossible to prove a negative-i.e., prove something did NOT happen--and thus the only logical approach is to require proof of whatever is alleged to have actually happened. In the absence of such proof, the allegations are essentially hot air. My dictionary shows both "forums" and "fora" as plurals for "forum." Likewise, it shows both forms of the plural for "medium." When we refer to news outlets, we generally say "media;" when we refer to psychics we generally say "mediums." The real point is, for some Latin-based words we accept the Latin plural as the English plural, for others we Anglicize them and use standard English plural forms. "Fora" is the only correct plural in the Latin language, but not necessarily the only correct one in the English language. |
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Subject: RE: Help: PM Etiquette From: CarolC Date: 16 Jul 01 - 07:43 PM Thanks, everyone who has given me their thoughts on this. I have taken everything you have said very seriously, and I have derived comfort from much of it.
I have been informed that posting the contents of the PMs I sent could be bad for the Mudcat, and so I will not post them. I will just have to stand by my assertion that the accusation was false.
Thanks again, Carol |
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Subject: RE: Help: PM Etiquette From: wysiwyg Date: 16 Jul 01 - 07:51 PM oops no, www.rc.org sorry new puder spring fever and multitasking converting files! ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: Help: PM Etiquette From: Bert Date: 16 Jul 01 - 08:11 PM Good decision Carol. Those of us who have come to know you and love you, believe you. Don't lose any more sleep over it. Luvya, Bert. |
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Subject: RE: Help: PM Etiquette From: SINSULL Date: 16 Jul 01 - 08:23 PM Carol - the two of you need to draw back, take a deep breath, and find a way to resolve the misunderstanding OR recognize that it cannot be resolved. Going public with "He said; she said" can only make the problem worse, pull in others including flamers who thrive on this sort of thing, and frankly make either or both of you look foolish. Being right isn't critical and maybe isn't even possible in this case. You are a valued member of this community. So is the person I believe is the other party. Do what you know is best. Mary |
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Subject: RE: Help: PM Etiquette From: SINSULL Date: 16 Jul 01 - 08:28 PM Cross post, Carol. Thanks for your decision. Joe Offer - Church Latin right? We learned it as Classical: SK... not sh.... And isn't it "sciit"? It's been a whle and I am too lazy to look it up. Mary |
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Subject: RE: Help: PM Etiquette From: CarolC Date: 16 Jul 01 - 09:08 PM bert, your post has brought tears to my eyes, and immense gratitude to my heart.
Thank you very, very, much for what you have said. You'll never know how much it means to me.
Gratefully, Carol |
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Subject: RE: Help: PM Etiquette From: Benjamin Date: 16 Jul 01 - 09:25 PM Carol, I've got no idea what's going on or who the accuser is, and have no desire to find out or take sides. But if the accuser wants to hold a grudge, you can't let that stop you from living your life. Until he or she is willing to talk and be honest, there's nothing you can do. It's his or her problem. I know it sucks when it's with you. I hope you can work this out. It isn't helping the accuser any more than you. I remember a man who was once a good friend of mine (unrelated story). We'd talk about all kinds of stuff. I thought we had gotten pretty close. Then one day, all he could do was yell at me for anything I did. Didn't matter if I did something wrong or not. Then he quit talking to me all together. He hasn't approached me in maybe 3 years. I have no idea what I could of done. But if he can't be a man and tell me, I can't take responsibility for any of this. Maybe I'm not understanding the whole situation. But this is the best advice I've got. Hope it helps! BMW |
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Subject: RE: Help: PM Etiquette From: bbc Date: 16 Jul 01 - 10:53 PM Carol, I believe your decision to not post the PM is the correct one. Making public something that was intended to be private is a serious breach of social behavior & will lose you points, bigtime, no matter who (if anyone) is at fault. If you do that, no one will, in the future, feel that they can say anything to you in confidence. It's happened here in the past & is an all-round losing proposition. I hope you can resolve the situation soon & get on w/ your life. bbc |
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Subject: RE: Help: PM Etiquette From: CarolC Date: 16 Jul 01 - 11:32 PM bbc, that was the problem to begin with. It was the other person who posted something I was alleged to have said privately in a Personal, Private Message that I sent to him/her. It was the other person who committed the serious breach of social behavior, which put me in an impossible situation. But the individual in question has admitted his/her mistake and he/she has apologized for doing this, and I am prepared to move on. |
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Subject: RE: Help: PM Etiquette From: Jon Freeman Date: 16 Jul 01 - 11:41 PM I am speaking as one of the people who dicussed with Carol the possible implications to Mudcat, which I believe formed a major part in her descision to drop the matter. Carol dropped something that she felt strongly about for the benefit of all here. Can't others show the same respect by not posting comments that make her feel a need to reply. Jon |
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