Never pay your band'mates' in cash...

Subject: Never pay your band'mates' in cash...
From: InOBU
Date: 03 Sep 01 - 09:44 AM

A warning ... one of the bad little monkeys did it again... ran off with all the bananas... now, imagine this, we do a memorial for those who died on the hunger strike, for family members of those who died here in New York... I know that some in my band are niether Irish nor Nationalist, nor very carring... so I offer as my part of the contribution to the evening to pay any band member what we usually get for a gig, ($100 each...) This means weeks of busking money to go to pay three band members, one of whom describes her self as Irish and Nationalist... and in great sympathy with those who died. No problem, this weekend... after paying said bad little monkey in cash several months ago, while telling a new band member about the event, she says, "You mena there was money for some members?"
I tell her, No I paid three members out of pocket...
She tells me she wants to be paid... I say fine... Later I remember and check with other band members. Eric, one of our number at the time, was not at the gig, so I HAD paid this bad little monkey... My wife remembers she insisted I pay her, IN CASH BEFORE I paid everyone else... said her rent was due!
Genie called her, she says I am trying to get out of paying her.
So... other struggling band leaders... get recipts from even old friends... I prefer to tatoo the dates and payment recipts on the butts of my band members, and I intend to start this program at the next gig.... and charge an elect number of audience members to watch... ANYONE have a branding iron????
Cheers
Larry
PS the continuing saga of Larry and the Bad Little Monkeys, a childrens story, will be serrialized here over the next few....

Subject: RE: Never pay your band'mates' in cash...
From: mooman
Date: 03 Sep 01 - 11:09 AM

Actually, that's not a bad name for a band Larry...and one I can sympathize with having played with one or two Bad Little Monkeys myself over the years!

All the best

mooman

P.S. Did you ever manage to get in touch with Alan Burke?

Subject: RE: Never pay your band'mates' in cash...
From: Willie-O
Date: 03 Sep 01 - 11:33 AM

If you can't pay your bandmates in cash (once), well, that's a drag. Should write in in your date book though, I guess. Signed receipts is a little much. Relying on everyone else's memory as to who got what when is not the way to go, everyone has memory failures...best solution is to always have a 99c receipt book in your bag, write it up when in doubt.

I've paid twice for a couple of things (non-musical) this year, while believing that I had already settled the accounts...but without paper to back it up! Still looking for that paper, I suppose it would help if a hurricane swept over my desk, who knows what would turn up.

Willie-O

older, no wiser

Subject: RE: Never pay your band'mates' in cash...
From: Sorcha
Date: 03 Sep 01 - 11:37 AM

Play for fun, not profit.

Subject: RE: Never pay your band'mates' in cash...
From: Amos
Date: 03 Sep 01 - 12:13 PM

Over here in Americay we have this great little invention called a checking account. You pay people using it and lo and behold, the minute they cash that check the little puppy comes back to you with their name on theback!!! Ain't that a dern hoot?? I mean, whut won't they think of next!!

I guess desperate minds call for desperate measures.

A.

Subject: RE: Never pay your band'mates' in cash...
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 03 Sep 01 - 12:59 PM

Guess I'm just one lucky monkey to be in a band full of good monkies!

Subject: RE: Never pay your band'mates' in cash...
From: kendall
Date: 03 Sep 01 - 01:16 PM

How can you even work with people like that?

Subject: RE: Never pay your band'mates' in cash...
From: Jeri
Date: 03 Sep 01 - 01:48 PM

Amos, Larry lives in Americay...well, NYC - it's close.

Personally, I think that anybody who's willing to take money out of a band mate's pocket to show up at a gig is already a bad monkey, but I guess you're OK with that arrangement.

SEVERAL MONTHS AGO!? Actually, Larry, if she thinks she just recently found out about some members being paid, and wanted a "piece o' da action," you probably had the payment conditions set up before the gig. It's no fair to retroactively re-negotiate. Of course, you already paid her, but if she were right, she still didn't require payment to perform the gig, so the point would be moot.

Subject: RE: Never pay your band'mates' in cash...
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 03 Sep 01 - 02:26 PM

Been off the Cat for a few days 'cause of those nasty "real life" things that mess with your hobby, and I'm glad to get back for some "leisure pursuits".

Larry, my heart goes out to you. I decided about 15 years ago to not only dispense with agents and managers, but attempt to use "verbal contracts" whenever possible. I've been able to make this stick about 95 percent of the time. I've been burned only once (by a friend!!) to the tune of about 250 bucks, so I think I'll continue this way. The only way I've been able to make it work (and keep a somewhat professional income coming in) has been to deal with character people exclusively. It's tough at times, and it means having eyes in the back of your head...and it also means LOSING SOME GIGS (or doing them solo) when I can't get the musicians I want, or feel that a potential employer can be trusted.

I don't have any idea what's happened here, other than your side of it, but if I had difficulties with a band member of any kind, I'd either try to solve it once and for all, or immediately resolve not to play with that person again.

Calling them "bad little monkeys" was cute at first when you used the term a few months ago, but I think it's obvious that these folks are causin' you a huge amount of grief...and there's never been any indication in your past posts that they really WANT to do the same things you do.

Too bad you're not in Toronto where there are lots of fine "Celtic" musicians who ALSO got out to Demonstrations!

I LOVE "Yvette's Song". It is powerful. I hope it gets widely heard.

Rick

Subject: ALWAYS pay your band mates in cash!!
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 03 Sep 01 - 03:04 PM

There's nothing wrong at all with getting paid to make music, Sorch!

As far as paying band members... I'm afraid I don't see the problem... after a gig I go and get the scratch from the house... sit down, split it up, and give my band the "Golden Handshakes"... everyone gets their money right then and there... cash on the barrel head...

Maybe it's just me, but I really didn't follow what happened in the original post... You paid her twice, was that it?

Subject: RE: Never pay your band'mates' in cash...
From: InOBU
Date: 04 Sep 01 - 07:59 AM

Hi Clinton... Unfortunately, here in NYC... we do (Sorcha) have to play for the rent... . Unfortunatly, (as per the old Pinewoods post ) Few, if any venues pay enough to pay everyone their expecation (and demand) of $100. per gig. So, as I perform music I write which I feel is important to a number of human rights causes (see post on disturbing songs) I am often in the way of having to make up the difference in what my band demands and what we get paid (see busking for money!) Unfortuanately there IS a band called Bad Little Monkey's so I have found, or I WOULD change the name of the band to Lorcan and the Bad Little Monkies. Being that I often have to busk for weeks to pay bandmates what venues did not, I often wind up a bit behind... but I always have let band members know the score before hand.
On the present issue, I now believe that , as I paid her for two gigs at once, as the check cleared for a festival the same week as I paid her in cash for the second gig, in her mind, she was paid for only one gig.
Today I am interviewing a wee girl to be a manager and keeper of the monkies house, so I will not be in this possition agian, I hope, with less than great optimism. As to a checking account, if one has only about ten cents left to his name after the weeks bill,s it is not a great way to pay folks (unless they really need rubber for something or another!)
Well thanks for the feed back...
I DID get through to Alan Burke yesterday, he sends his best to Mooman, and it turns out it was the block from Mot the Hopple who wrote 3,ooo miles from here! He liked my changes though!
Cheers to all and to all good luck!
Larry
PS RICK! New great recording done on weekend... more to follow in the mail soon!

Subject: RE: Never pay your band'mates' in cash...
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 04 Sep 01 - 01:18 PM

Sounds like a right load of bollox to me... Music should never be this difficult..

Sounds like going the manager rout may just be the best row for you to hoe...

good luck eh!

;-)

Subject: RE: Never pay your band'mates' in cash...
From: GUEST,Celtic Soul
Date: 04 Sep 01 - 02:25 PM

In my band, we each initial a receipt when cash is involved. No one takes offense at this, and it makes the life of the person doing the accounting a lot easier. I can understand both sides though. The older I get, the easier it is to forget (even things like being paid). I may forget being paid, and it is feasible for the person doing the paying to forget having paid me. So, all he has to do is pull out the initialed receipt. If my initials are there, I got the money. If not, I didn't. Either way, we can see the reality, and move on as friends without any hard feelings.

Subject: RE: Never pay your band'mates' in cash...
From: Cappuccino
Date: 04 Sep 01 - 02:31 PM

Apologies for an English enquiry in the middle of this. That hundred dollars a gig - surely that isn't average, is it? That's about sixty pounds in our money... and I'd be very happy with gigs that paid me that as a band member!!!

All the best - Ian

Subject: RE: Never pay your band'mates' in cash...
From: paddymac
Date: 04 Sep 01 - 02:56 PM

In our little pond, there are performers who will tell you they get that much, but most of them are engaging in the sometimes-not-so-fine-art of puffery. With a group of six, it's rare indeed for us to individuially get that much. The "benefit" of not making a living from music, or significant money from a gig, is that money hassles don't often come up. What few arguments we've had about money were more about principle than principal.

Subject: RE: Never pay your band'mates' in cash...
From: Sorcha
Date: 04 Sep 01 - 02:56 PM

Didn't mean to imply that there is anything wrong with making money from music if you can. It's funner for me when it is not a business, is all. The manager route sounds good. So do initialed reciepts.

Subject: RE: Never pay your band'mates' in cash...
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 04 Sep 01 - 03:05 PM

Around here, the folkies and the celtics get on average 150 Canadian a night for a solo or duo... more than that each sometimes if yer in the right band...

For a 100 bucks a night, I wouldn't even leave the house... unless it was a guaranteed steady gig over a long term... or I was doing a favour for a friend...

The guys around here who work both side of the border have mentioned that they usually get 100-150 American, when they're on that side of the border... Really makes it worth our wide to work over there, when the exchange rate is as crappy as it is...

;-)

Subject: RE: Never pay your band'mates' in cash...
From: Cappuccino
Date: 04 Sep 01 - 03:26 PM

Bass player, doubling guitar and mandolin, seeks work wherever it is you're playing.... !!! - IanB

Subject: RE: Never pay your band'mates' in cash...
From: guinnesschik
Date: 04 Sep 01 - 03:46 PM

We always agree beforehand either to do or not to do "benefit" work, so there's no question of payment at all. If it's a freebie for one of us, it's a freebie for all of us.

Maybe you could do such worthy benefits without the less caring of your band members, or find new bandmates.

In an ideal world your bandmates are your friends. Your "bad little monkey" doesn't sound like much in the friendship department.

I hope this situation works itself out.

Subject: RE: Never pay your band'mates' in cash...
From: M.Ted
Date: 04 Sep 01 - 04:58 PM

I agree with Rick on this, Larry--you don't need to deal with the aggravation, let alone deal with ingratitude--

I know that it is hard for musicians to survive in Manhattan anymore--but there has to be a way to connect with people who want to be there with you for the human rights stuff for some other reason than that they can shake you down for a few bucks--even if you have to teach some non-Irish musicians some chords and such--

Subject: RE: Never pay your band'mates' in cash...
From: Maryrrf
Date: 04 Sep 01 - 05:08 PM

I just had some disappointing exchanges about money with a person I considered a friend, so I feel for you. There are just some people who may be very nice, but they seem to turn into different personalities when money comes into the picture. I probably go too far when it comes to donating time, music, massages (I'm a CMT) when I feel the occasion warrants it (it's educational, it's for charity, it's for a cause I believe in, the person who asked me to do it is a friend...etc) but I have to say if money is that important to your band member, her heart's not really in the music and you might be better off without her. Try to find people to play with that you can bond with spiritually, as well as musically. I know that's hard and music is a business, and I do have some experience with the NYC music scene. That's a pretty cutthroat environment. But I just wonder if such a person's attitude comes through in their music. Best wishes to you.

Subject: RE: Never pay your band'mates' in cash...
From: GUEST,MUG
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 04:14 AM

As you can see from my guest name I have been done by a so called friend that I trusted. Money can quickly change the tenor of a friendship. I hope I have learned that the two do not mix. But when it is business, then I think a set of rules should be put on paper and all band members sign it. This should make clear to one and all about money issues.
MUG

PS I think I may have MUG tattoed on my forehead - everyone else can see it except me!

Subject: How much *do* folkies get paid?
From: Celtic Soul
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 06:21 AM

IanB? $100.00 per person? That would be on average a minimum for my group.

So, what is the normal scale for folkies to make for an average gig?

Subject: RE: Never pay your band'mates' in cash...
From: Crazy Eddie
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 06:28 AM

Clarification:
OK, we have Larry, aka InOBU who plays in a band called Sorcha Dorcha.
Then we have Sorcha, who plays music for fun.
Is there a connection, or just a naming coincidence? End thread creep.

Subject: RE: Never pay your band'mates' in cash...
From: InOBU
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 08:37 AM

Hi Crazi Eddie... Coincidence. Sorcha, means "of light" in Gaelic, and Dorcha means "of Darkness". When Rominichals (Scottish Roma < Gypsies > ) brought Rom culture to the community which became Irish Pavees (Travellers) the root of which comes to Scotland through Eastern Europe from India... they brought Kali Maria - Black Mary, who was the imbodiment of Ganesh, the God of creation and Shiva the God of decay. The Pavees renamed her Sorcha Dorcha and she is now the patron saint of Travellers.
Funny enough we have a Sarah in the band (as the name Sorcha is sometimes translated ) and a sitar player named Kamala Shankaram - her last name is one of the names of Shiva. Our possible manager's email address has the name Ganesh in it, so there are loads of Coincidences here...
IanB, If you can live in New York on what we make, I'd hire ya in a heart beat old skin!
I'd love to have a band that pulls together, but American culture has created a comminity centered around "ME and ME alone. " I have, for example, asked band members to talk to each other about schedualing, about any number of things to make more of a cooperative community of the band, the reaction was, "No... that's not my job it's your band... " and "Well shure some bands all get along and pull together like the Beatles used to do at first, but that's rare..."
Now my pointing out that if one wanted a good example of WHY THE F*CK WE SHOULD pull together, the fact that the Beatles DID, is not a bad modle! But, well, I'm stuck in the wrong frigging nation. I should have known when my dad was Blacklisted that it was time to undo the dammage done by a certain Cunard liner which packed the old clan over here... Unfortuantly leaving the US would involve leaving my wife, who can't see herself living in Europe, or Canada... so here I am, singing truth to power with a reluctant band of bad little monkies - and struggling to feed them thier bananas.
Cheers
Larry...
PS I am fairly convinced the present problem comes of the fact I paid the member for two gigs on the same day. I don't bear grudges, and rather try to find ways of not having it happen again, so, I am trying to get away from the money management of the band, and passing on the warning to all my pals here, and heeding your advice.

Subject: RE: Never pay your band'mates' in cash...
From: KingBrilliant
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 09:02 AM

Larry - why do you call them bad little monkeys? Every time I read it I think - well if someone called me a bad little monkey I'd bite them.
Just intrigued to know how the term came about. Do they know you call them that - and if so is that why they bite you?

Kris

Subject: RE: Never pay your band'mates' in cash...
From: M.Ted
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 10:58 AM

Larry,

I don't buy all of this stuff--I am sorry, I just don't--your bandmates obviously aren't invested in the band--you could ditch them, take the money you save, and buy a great sequencer/synthesizer set up--and I am only half-kidding about this--

Subject: RE: Never pay your band'mates' in cash...
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 11:41 AM

Emted speaks truth.

I know you've got a strong constitution Larry, and there's no real substitute for playing with other live human beings, but this kind of agro is bad for your music.

Think of all the other 'celtic style' musicians who share your political concerns and insist that their music reflects those concerns........didn't take long, did it?

OK, I was about to be too negative....but I'll try another suggestion. Have you tried working with 'non-celtic' oriented musicians? I mean find a singer who WANTS to do political material, and a bass player and whatever....and get them to learn SOME of your dance repertoire...but still focus on the issues stuff. Make it LESS Irish in sound. Any possibilities there?

Rick

Subject: RE: Never pay your band'mates' in cash...
From: mooman
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 11:50 AM

Don't leave the US Larry! If anything, it's worse where I live! A good Irish singer friend, who I have done a little work with also, has a band here and she has had to do EVERYTHING in relation to arranging gigs, looking for a record deal (now accomplished), sorting out band member feuds and the like. The rest of them (bar one) have done virtually nothing to help.

I left a hard-gigging band for similar reasons. No-one helped with get-ins, get-outs, setting up equipment, soundchecks, getting tuned up or any of the hard graft. All however wanted to dictate the repertoire and be centre-stage and their heels were nowhere to be seen once the money had been paid out. I never received a bean towards transport costs or the sound equipment, which all belonged to me. As they say, there's a mug born every day and I was it! I know a little better now and am determined to be a little more careful who I play with (referring to proper gigs here not sessions although I will also walk out of those now if session etiquette is grossly violated) from now on and to assert my own feelings and express my own needs a little more.

All the best

mooman

Subject: RE: Never pay your band'mates' in cash...
From: GUEST,djh
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 11:51 AM

I wish cash was the problem with a recently parted bad monkey in my band, my bad monkey had rabies.

Subject: RE: Never pay your band'mates' in cash...
From: Big Mick
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 11:52 AM

Larry, I say this as a friend. As good a cyber friend as there is. I have a simple rule in who I play music with. When the day comes that I care about the band and the music more than those I play with care about it, then it is time to find others to play music with. And it holds the other way, as well. If I find that I just don't care about it as much as the others, again it is time to move on. As I have followed this thread, it is clear to me that you care about this more than the others. Time to find others, or go it solo. You are willing to go hungry, just so you can make music. These folks, based on what I read here, are willing to let you go hungry in order to pay them to play music. Something seems wrong in that equation to me.

Let us see what others have to say.

Mick

Subject: RE: Never pay your band'mates' in cash...
From: InOBU
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 12:36 PM

Well lets see, Bad Little Monkeys was the name of a New York band, I noticed their poster while tugging our PA system, my pipes, my bodhran, one of my band mate's guitar, mine really she could not be bothered to bring her's, in the snow a few blocks to a gig, after carrying the load down four flights of stairs, in about ten trips of about 40 lbs (three stone) each trip... with a broken rib... no kidding, I saw this posters and thought of my band breazing in after set up and worrying that they were not making enough money... and well, ain't it the truth?
Forget moveing all the gear, ever tried to play the Uilleann pipes and sing, with the rib under your bellows broken? Not recomended.
If I played the guitar, I sure as hell would do a solo... but it is one of the only instruments I could not get the hang of, the fact that the hands are doing separate things, it may have to do with my learning disablity! Jazus, Musha, An beal bocht, er chor a bith! ach ceart go leor!!!
I think I will leave off this story, it is even depressing me!!! Rick, I did get a real laugh over the joke about Irish musicians who care!!! But then again, I have to say, I don't have to think long, there is Mary Courtney, who has a great new album, and you should all go to her web site and BUY it! Her band is called Morning Star and she is a real dear!!!! You can find her web page as one of our links at Http://sorchadorcha.com
Cheers (ouch)
Lorcan Ri

Subject: RE: Never pay your band'mates' in cash...
From: M.Ted
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 07:30 PM

We are giving you a hard time because we respect your work, Larry, and it is disturbing to know that you are working with people who don't--as far as learning disabilities, you seem to be having a little trouble reading the writing on the wall--but if you look carefully, relax, and think a bit, it will all be clear--

Subject: RE: Never pay your band'mates' in cash...
From: KingBrilliant
Date: 06 Sep 01 - 05:30 AM

Ah - now I understand - the name makes sense now. They do indeed sound extremely ignorant. Do you really need them? They're not pulling their weight - surely no-one is irreplaceable.
Hope it all sorts itself out for you.

Kristin

Subject: RE: Never pay your band'mates' in cash...
From: InOBU
Date: 06 Sep 01 - 06:40 AM

Well on a happier note... things with our first studio recorded CD are progressing wonderfully, at last, and for you all in North Carolina we are going to play a festival on the same bill as Sy Kaun, detail to follow. Maybe success will iron out the differences, eh? Cheers to all, Larry