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Spirituals Posted at Mudcat
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Subject: Spirituals Posted at Mudcat From: wysiwyg Date: 04 Sep 01 - 11:29 PM I have begun posting some of the spirituals from my new collections here at Mudcat. I was amazed to learn that there are so many that are not posted anywhere else online, even at sites specializing in spirituals. It was suggested that I might post them all in one thread, but there will be too many, and the few posted so far have already resulted in discussions of other songs that came later, that were based on the ones I posted. Variants also have been posted. I can keep track better if the threads stay separate. So in order to make them as findable as possible, should they ever be candidates for the DT, I will list them here as I post them. It would be great if others who post them, or have posted them, could add theirs to the list. I am also making an index of known spirituals and the songbooks in which they appear. I will post a list of the songbooks already indexed soon. It does not mean that I OWN them all-- just that they are known to be out and around. And when I do post it, if you see a book YOU have that is not listed, and you can send me a scan (or better, text) of the index, I will add it. ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: Spirituals Posted at Mudcat From: Bill D Date: 04 Sep 01 - 11:35 PM hmm.... I have a whole row of little old gospel songbooks...maybe some scans could be worked in... |
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Subject: RE: Spirituals Posted at Mudcat From: wysiwyg Date: 04 Sep 01 - 11:38 PM I posted:
Ain't That Good News No More Auction Block (Many T'ousand Gone) Oh Sinner Man ~Susan
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Subject: RE: Spirituals Posted at Mudcat From: wysiwyg Date: 04 Sep 01 - 11:41 PM Oh Bill, you want to just send me the books.... don't you???? Scans of any gospel would be fine-- I can use them in my music-- but this index will focus on SPEERCHULS. Send whatever! ~Susan (hi Bill) |
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Subject: RE: Spirituals Posted at Mudcat From: wysiwyg Date: 04 Sep 01 - 11:50 PM (AFRICAN-AMERICAN aka NEGRO spirituals.) Goin' Home was discussed recently as well. ~S~
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Subject: RE: Spirituals Posted at Mudcat From: wysiwyg Date: 04 Sep 01 - 11:56 PM Don't You Let Nobody Turn You Around
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Subject: RE: Spirituals Posted at Mudcat From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) Date: 04 Sep 01 - 11:59 PM Sure would be nice to have them in the DT. Maybe a little easier to refind but may be too much work if the interest is limited. |
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Subject: RE: Spirituals Posted at Mudcat From: wysiwyg Date: 05 Sep 01 - 12:23 AM I WANT JESUS TO WALK WITH ME We Shall Walk Through the Valley turtledove done drooped his wings (in DT) OH GLORY, HOW HAPPY I AM (a Gary Davis song, may have had roots in spirituals) Oh Glory, How Happy I Am (a Gary Davis song, may have had roots in spirituals) I'M GLAD I'M IN THAT NUMBER (a Gary Davis song, may have had roots in spirituals) I Will Do My Last Singing in This Land (a Gary Davis song, may have had roots in spirituals) (back to May 20)
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Subject: RE: Spirituals Posted at Mudcat From: wysiwyg Date: 05 Sep 01 - 12:25 AM Dicho, there are also quite several in the DT. I'd love to see these added too, but to tell you the truth, it doesn't matter to me-- I like the discussions of each one right in the threads. ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: Spirituals Posted at Mudcat From: wysiwyg Date: 05 Sep 01 - 12:50 PM CHATTER WITH THE ANGELS Michael Row the Boat Ashore (New verses and a link to an older thread with slavery discussion, etc.) Ring Them Charming Bells (Several other songs posted and linked, Ring Dem Bells, etc.) Dem Golden Slippers (Discussion of origin and links to versions. Attributed to minstrelsy more than a spiritual but may have had basis in spirituals.) Death Don't Have No Mercy (Another Gary Davis item that may have spirituals roots.) I ain't gonna lay my religion down (Thread does not specify that it is a spiritual but from the dialect used it appears to be.) Blessed Be the Name (Mississippi John Hurt blues tune with possible roots in spirituals.) Hymns/gospel songs in jams? (Discussion of various items, lists of titles of commonly-used gospel of all sorts including spirituals.) ~S~
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Subject: RE: Spirituals Posted at Mudcat From: wysiwyg Date: 05 Sep 01 - 12:56 PM Correx for no-good link above) Oh Glory, How Happy I Am (a Gary Davis song, may have had roots in spirituals) NOTE-- these are just the threads I am aware of from posting (or posting replies in) them myself. Please feel free to add more you know of. If the thread copy says it is already in DT please note that in your post here. ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: Spirituals Posted at Mudcat From: Bill D Date: 05 Sep 01 - 01:05 PM funny, as long I have have been doing music, I never 'examined' the difference between gospel, spiritual, hymn...etc....a brief definition would help |
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Subject: RE: Spirituals Posted at Mudcat From: wysiwyg Date: 05 Sep 01 - 01:13 PM Definitions are numerous and varied, many here at Mudcat and many elsewhere as well (See thread, Links on Spirituals, for external data.) I can define what I am looking for, I think-- the music of a spiritual nature that sprang out of the spirit of slaves and their descendants, and the "blues" music that flowed from there as time went on. I think of it not so much as a musical genre... more as a cultural expression. That help? ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: Spirituals Posted at Mudcat From: MMario Date: 05 Sep 01 - 01:13 PM hmmmmmmmmm.........I'm interested in that as well. though as far as I know it is pretty much a manner of "style" |
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Subject: RE: Spirituals Posted at Mudcat From: wysiwyg Date: 05 Sep 01 - 01:18 PM I think the time has come to start a thread asking these questions and giving links to the older discussions. If you start one (either of you) I will add links to a few discussions I know of. But I suspect this here thread may become a permathread index-- so perhaps it would be best not to pursue it much more here? ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: Spirituals Posted at Mudcat From: Uncle Jaque Date: 05 Sep 01 - 10:22 PM I get the impression that the "Spiritual" genre of musical expression was typically spontanious, constantly evolving, and interwoven with other forms of hymns, gospel and even popular secular music. That, combined with a tendancy to be orally transmitted rather than written down or published in the early years make them somewhat challenging to collect. I have a reprint of "Slave Songs" and have seen various articles in "Harper's Weekly" and similar periodicals from the 1870's in which white musicians - probably during the Civil War - heard these songs being sung down South and recognizing their musical and cultural significance, tried to transcribe and preserve them as best they could. Somebody from within the Black American Southern culture probably has published some of this music, but I'm not aware of any - certainly not before the 1880's, at least, when the "Spiritual" tradition seems to have been evolving strongly toward the "Blues". It seems that some early recording and "collection" was done in the 1930's by the WPA from some of the elderly, rural Blacks around Virginia & Tenn. who remembered some of the old Spirituals, and there seems to have been a subsequent revival of sorts when some of them were put out on albums. During the Folk Revival of the 1960's quite a few Folk Artists adapted and recorded some Spirituals successfully, and I'm glad to see continuing interest in them... but as I said, digging the really old ones out from obscurity can be considerably more difficult than collecting "Euro-American" works of the same period. I recently recorded an album on which was an arrangement of "Old Ship Of Zion"; a version of it was found in "Southern Harmony" of 1835, another in a Methodist Hymnal, and again in that collection of "Negro Spirituals" from the 1870's. They were all different although obviously related, suggesting that some of these tunes were likely "borrowed" and "shared" back and forth between races, cultures, and denomonations. Remember, back then it was not uncommon for songwriters to wander around the countryside or hang around in local taverns listening for local ditties. When they heard one they liked, they jotted it down in a notebook and pretty soon a song bearing a strong resemblance would be published under his name in Boston of New York... Just where they started or by who may never really be known. |
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Subject: RE: Spirituals Posted at Mudcat From: wysiwyg Date: 05 Sep 01 - 11:11 PM Favorite Negro Spirituals (Lists of favorites)
Let's keep this thread just an index please, and move discussion of general history, etc. here:And to discuss the history of specific songs already posred or in DT, pleas add that to the thread for that song so it will all be together.
Thank you!~Susan
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Subject: RE: Spirituals Posted at Mudcat From: wysiwyg Date: 06 Sep 01 - 01:53 AM Josh White Lyrics dem bones (Spiritual or minstrelsy?) Valley of Dry Bones (Spiritual?) EZEKIEL (Spiritual?) Gospel Origin-Civil Rights & Labor Songs Spirituals and other gospel material-- posted, listed, and/or linked
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Subject: RE: Spirituals Posted at Mudcat From: wysiwyg Date: 06 Sep 01 - 02:14 AM (back to Nov 00) |
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Subject: African-American Spirituals Permathread From: wysiwyg Date: 08 Sep 01 - 02:52 PM The material above that is pertinent to African-American Spirituals, and any new material about them added here, will eventually be edited into the new permathread on African-American Spirituals. Please post what you know, especially links to good past discussions, here-- until it gets brought together in the permathread. Full bibliographic information is always appreciated, and if you know if the material currently is in print (or not), that is also helpful. Thanks! ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: Spirituals Posted at Mudcat From: wysiwyg Date: 08 Sep 01 - 03:21 PM I'm A-Going To Do All I Can is posted with the later and possibly-related gospel hymn, Stand By Me (Tindley). ~S~ Please note-- if you add links, use the NAME OF THE SPIRITUAL as the link clickie-copy if you can, as above, unless it is a thread you want me to open and find the material in it, to remake the link. The goal is an aphabetized index of spirituals by linked title, posted. Thanks! |
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Subject: RE: Spirituals Posted at Mudcat From: wysiwyg Date: 09 Sep 01 - 10:05 AM Looking for sone helpers-- I have done some Mudcat searches on various words... can we organize so no one is duplicating efforts? ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: Spirituals Posted at Mudcat From: wysiwyg Date: 10 Sep 01 - 05:01 PM Two volunteers on board. ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: Spirituals Posted at Mudcat From: wysiwyg Date: 11 Sep 01 - 12:53 AM STAND THE STORM ~S~
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Subject: RE: Spirituals Posted at Mudcat From: Joe Offer Date: 11 Sep 01 - 02:50 AM Here's a thread that's very pertinent to this subject: USA Jubilee - Fisk Jubilee Singers . In the 19th Century, the Fisk Jubilee Singers were the first to bring "Negro Spirituals" to the general public in the U.S.. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: Spirituals Posted at Mudcat From: wysiwyg Date: 18 Sep 01 - 11:17 AM YOU HEAR THE LAMBS A-CRYING
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Subject: RE: Spirituals Posted at Mudcat From: wysiwyg Date: 19 Sep 01 - 08:47 PM I WANT TO DIE EASY> |
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Subject: RE: Spirituals Posted at Mudcat From: wysiwyg Date: 19 Sep 01 - 08:52 PM WADE IN THE WATER numerous versions Green Sally Up a field song
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Subject: RE: Spirituals Posted at Mudcat From: wysiwyg Date: 19 Sep 01 - 09:20 PM EZEKIEL SAW THE WHEEL as done by ZEKE MANNERS and HIS GANG (Formerly known as: THE HILL BILLIES)
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Subject: RE: Spirituals Posted at Mudcat From: wysiwyg Date: 19 Sep 01 - 10:06 PM Run, Nigger Run complete with history and related variants/alternate titles RUN NIGGER RUN with additional variants, history I'M TROUBLED IN MIND Two versions, one apparently a "white spiritual" and one perhaps a Negro spiritual My Lord What a Morning AKA My Lord What a Mourning My Lord What a Mourning AKA My Lord What a Morning
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Subject: RE: Spirituals Posted at Mudcat From: wysiwyg Date: 19 Sep 01 - 10:09 PM Run, Jimmie, Run |
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Subject: RE: Spirituals Posted at Mudcat From: wysiwyg Date: 19 Sep 01 - 10:12 PM courtesy of George Seto: Thanks, George! ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: Spirituals Posted at Mudcat From: wysiwyg Date: 20 Sep 01 - 12:01 AM Death Come Creeping
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Subject: RE: Spirituals Posted at Mudcat From: wysiwyg Date: 20 Sep 01 - 12:17 AM Deep River, or Steal Away? Compares these two songs Jordan Am A Hard Road To Travel Spiritual (white or black?), or minstrelsy? I should make clear at this point that the goal of this particular index is to make easily available all the titles someone could conceivably come looking for, in searching for a song from the widely-defined "Negro Spirituals" tradition. This means that when in doubt as to the authentic nature of included links as actual "spirituals," the song will be listed in this index. In other words, being listed here does not mean a song is known for sure, through diligent scholarship, to be a spiritual in the sense any one individual might mean the term... it means, "here is a place where we can look up titles we know or run across, and see what others have said, and add what we know-- or ask questions." The scholarship will be in the THREADS, not in this index... the index is merely a means of facilitating our continued study. ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: Spirituals Posted at Mudcat From: wysiwyg Date: 20 Sep 01 - 02:34 PM I am a-trouble in de mind |
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Subject: RE: Spirituals Posted at Mudcat From: wysiwyg Date: 20 Sep 01 - 06:41 PM EVERYTIME I FEEL THE SPIRIT DEATH IS GOING TO LAY HIS COLD ICY HANDS ON ME |
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Subject: RE: Spirituals Posted at Mudcat From: wysiwyg Date: 20 Sep 01 - 07:35 PM GIVE ME JESUS |
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Subject: RE: Spirituals Posted at Mudcat From: wysiwyg Date: 20 Sep 01 - 10:52 PM There Is A Hand Writing On The Wall The Angel Rolled The Stone Away Slavery Chain (Done Broke At Last) Same Train/Standin' At The Station Ride On King Jesus/No Man Can Hinder Me Poor Little Jesus (Hail, Lord) O By And By/Going To Lay Down This Heavy Load My Soul's Been Anchored In The Lord My Soul Is A Witness For My Lord Lord, I Want To Be A Christian Listen To The Lambs, All-A Crying It's Me/Standin' In The Need Of Prayer I'm So Glad Troubles Don't Last Always I Know The Lord's Laid His Hands On Me If We Ever Needed The Lord Before |
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Subject: RE: Spirituals Posted at Mudcat From: wysiwyg Date: 20 Sep 01 - 10:55 PM WASN'T THAT A MIGHTY DAY
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Subject: RE: Spirituals Posted at Mudcat From: Haruo Date: 20 Sep 01 - 11:38 PM Susan, there's some material in the prefatory matter to the African-American Episcopal hymnal Lift Every Voice and Sing II that it would nice to have online access to. Do you as the wife of a churchman have an in with the Church Publishing folks so you could maybe get permission to post it? Liland |
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Subject: RE: Spirituals Posted at Mudcat From: wysiwyg Date: 20 Sep 01 - 11:41 PM Liland, see reply HERE please. ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: Spirituals Posted at Mudcat From: wysiwyg Date: 20 Sep 01 - 11:51 PM AMEN Traditional spiritual, or newer? |
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Subject: Spirituals Permathread From: wysiwyg Date: 21 Sep 01 - 03:11 PM
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Subject: RE: Spirituals Posted at Mudcat From: wysiwyg Date: 21 Sep 01 - 10:29 PM RIDE ON KING JESUS/NO MAN CAN HINDER ME
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Subject: RE: Spirituals Posted at Mudcat From: wysiwyg Date: 24 Sep 01 - 02:17 PM Streets of Glory Possibly a spiritual or based on one. |
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Subject: RE: Spirituals Posted at Mudcat From: wysiwyg Date: 24 Sep 01 - 02:49 PM GOD'S GONNA SET THIS WORLD ON FIRE |
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Subject: RE: Spirituals Posted at Mudcat From: wysiwyg Date: 25 Sep 01 - 12:28 AM OH, GIVE WAY, JORDAN
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Subject: RE: Spirituals Posted at Mudcat From: wysiwyg Date: 25 Sep 01 - 02:07 AM MOST DONE TRABELLIN' Mona ["Mourner"] (You Shall Be Free) When the Good Lord Sets You Free Shout Monah ["Mourner"], You Shall Be Free
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Subject: RE: Spirituals Posted at Mudcat From: Sorcha Date: 27 Sep 01 - 10:49 AM TROUBLES OF THE WORLD(SOON I WILL BE DONE) |
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Subject: RE: Spirituals Posted at Mudcat From: wysiwyg Date: 28 Sep 01 - 11:19 AM All of the above entries are in the most recent update of the index linked above. ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: Spirituals Posted at Mudcat From: wysiwyg Date: 30 Sep 01 - 08:53 PM Songs on, or about slavery |
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Subject: RE: Spirituals Posted at Mudcat From: wysiwyg Date: 01 Oct 01 - 01:55 AM Songs on, or about slavery
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Subject: RE: Spirituals Posted at Mudcat From: wysiwyg Date: 01 Oct 01 - 02:57 AM several here |
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Subject: RE: Spirituals Posted at Mudcat From: wysiwyg Date: 02 Oct 01 - 02:25 PM Your Favorite Blues Gospel? Master of the Sheepfold (Not a spiritual?)
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Subject: RE: Spirituals Posted at Mudcat From: wysiwyg Date: 03 Oct 01 - 05:49 PM Ain't No More Cane Prison/Work Song
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Subject: RE: Spirituals Posted at Mudcat From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) Date: 05 Oct 01 - 05:33 PM A Great Camp-meetin' in de Promised Land (O Walk Together Children) 19C. Spiritual. |
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Subject: RE: Spirituals Posted at Mudcat From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) Date: 05 Oct 01 - 08:42 PM Nobody Knows the Trouble I See, Lord! (Differs from Nobody Knows the Trouble I've Seen) |
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Subject: RE: Spirituals Posted at Mudcat From: wysiwyg Date: 09 Oct 01 - 12:42 AM Wish I Was In Heaven Sitting Down Also a Blues Gospel |
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Subject: RE: Spirituals Posted at Mudcat From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 09 Oct 01 - 05:13 PM Susan: Just been cruising through this for the first time. I'm glad to see the lists that you've included. I'm never quite sure that some of the songs my group does are spirituals, or not... we do Bye and Bye, Roll Jordan, Roll and Get Away Jordan. I guess that the definition is elastic enough that some songs I wouldn't think of as spirituals make the list too. That's good... I'll come back to this thread repeatedly, as we look for new material.. |
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Subject: RE: Spirituals Posted at Mudcat From: wysiwyg Date: 09 Oct 01 - 07:27 PM Well, Jerry, the alphabetized list is in the permathread (see Jeri's link above), but you need to open each thread to see what we know about the authenticity of each one. I'd hoped you and the guys would help on that end! *G* Holler any time I can help though. ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: Spirituals Posted at Mudcat From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 09 Oct 01 - 09:01 PM Hi, Susan: Don't know how much me and the guys can help. We just sing the songs. I've never been much of a musicologist, although I do like to have a sense of where a song comes from, so that I can understand the feelings expressed. Joe, Frank and I (as the old-timers in my group) all know the songs from having heard them for many years. In Joe and Frank's case, they've heard and sung most of them for most their lives, and they're in their mid-70's. Me being a white boy, and a 66 year old toddler, I haven't known the songs that long, but my love for black gospel goes back long enough so I've internalized the songs. Funny thing is, Joe and Frank )being black and from the South) would never think in terms of whether a song is a Spiritual, a gospel song or a hymn. We are called the Gospel Messengers because it is the message that turns us to a song. We've been doing Roll Jordan, Roll for almost five years now, and it wasn't until a few months ago when I watched a program on the Fisk Jubilie Singers that I realized that it was a spiritual. I suspect any old black "gospel" song that deals with the imagery of crossing over a river, or Jordan is almost by definition, a spiritual. Now that we know that Roll Jordan, Roll is a spiritual, we sing it exactly the same way, and enjoy it exactly as much. The only difference is that my old folk music habit of giving ome background on songs leads me to mention that the song is a spiritual. Just as Get Away Jordan is. Another song that we sing because it's so much fun. I respect musicologists. If the future preservation of musical styles and history was in my hands, I think we'd be in serious trouble. We all do what we can.. |
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Subject: RE: Spirituals Posted at Mudcat From: wysiwyg Date: 09 Oct 01 - 09:14 PM I agree, Jerry. Maybe the guys have some memories of some of the other spirituals posted (being of a slightly finer vintage), that they can share with us. The best musicology is always from the people living it. *G* The rest of us have to soak it up as we go, living it in our own time, and following the elders' clues whenever we are lucky enough to come across them. ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: Spirituals Posted at Mudcat From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 10 Oct 01 - 02:05 PM Susan: The guys are coming up to our place on Saturday when we do a benefit concert. I'll see if I can get them aside and ask about how commonplace spirituals were when they were growing up in the south... Frank and Joe. I know that Frank said that when he was a little boy, he still had family members living in town who were ex-slaves. I'll see what I can get from them. They are always open about things... They all got an enormous kick, when I asked them if they would be comfortable singing black spirituals with "dis" and "dat" and "Gwine-a" in them. They immediately went into old minstrel show style black dialect, and we all cracked up. |
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Subject: RE: Spirituals Posted at Mudcat From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 10 Oct 01 - 02:15 PM Susan: I went and checked out the Black Gospel and Jazz Community, and the person who left the initial message about keeping spirituals alive is no longer a member of the community. The only two people who ever responded to his message were myself, and a woman out in California who is finding her way along in a gospel group there. As the old song says (I don't think that it's a spiritual) I may never reach perfection, but I tried My friends, they all doubt me, Lord I tried A lot of people laugh at me Is it because of what I'm trying to be? I may never reach perfection, Lord, I've tried |
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Subject: RE: Spirituals Posted at Mudcat From: wysiwyg Date: 10 Oct 01 - 02:44 PM *G* I'm just a sinner saved by grace. Good old Grace! *G* Tell the guys I sent 'em a big ole sloppy-kiss. ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: Spirituals Posted at Mudcat From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) Date: 11 Oct 01 - 05:47 PM Sitting Down by the Side of the Lamb, traditional Negro spiritual. Posted Oct. 11, 2001, threadid = 40015. "Negro Spirituals, or the Songs of the Jubilee Singers," # 133. |
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Subject: RE: Spirituals Posted at Mudcat From: wysiwyg Date: 12 Oct 01 - 11:09 PM I BEEN IN DE STORM SO LONG |
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Subject: RE: Spirituals Posted at Mudcat From: wysiwyg Date: 13 Oct 01 - 09:45 AM WISH I'SE IN HEAVEN SETTIN' DOWN |
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Subject: RE: Spirituals Posted at Mudcat From: wysiwyg Date: 13 Oct 01 - 10:35 AM More Southern songs of the Civil-War era |
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Subject: RE: Spirituals Posted at Mudcat From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) Date: 18 Oct 01 - 09:15 PM Posted Oct. 18, 2001. Before This Time Another Year. Threadid 40270. Work, American Negro Songs and Spirituals, 1940, p. 127. Another version posted: I Couldn't Hear Nobody Pray, threadid 39198 message 7. J. W. Johnson, The Book of American Negro Spirituals I, p. 89. |
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Subject: RE: Spirituals Posted at Mudcat From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) Date: 18 Oct 01 - 09:44 PM SOMEBODY'S BURIED IN THE GRAVEYARD posted Oct. 18, 2001, threadid 40272, spiritual from J. W. Work, 1940, American Negro Songs and Spirituals, p. 127. |
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Subject: RE: Spirituals Posted at Mudcat From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) Date: 18 Oct 01 - 09:50 PM SOMEBODY'S BURIED IN THE GRAVEYARD. Threadid 40272 |
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Subject: RE: Spirituals Posted at Mudcat From: wysiwyg Date: 19 Oct 01 - 01:27 AM YOU HEAR THE LAMBS A-CRYING |
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Subject: RE: Spirituals Posted at Mudcat From: Mary in Kentucky Date: 11 Dec 01 - 07:54 PM BEHOLD THAT STAR |
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