Help: Can You Take Waiter Tips for Own Fees?

Subject: Can You Take Waiter Tips for Own Fees?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 02:17 PM

Hi, a question for the legally-minded out there... a restaurant in Cville, one of the more expensive and better ones, has been whistleblown in this week's Cville Weekly newspaper; apparently after charging over $25 for a steak, if the customer adds the tip into the credit card bill, the restaurant takes $$$ OUT OF THE TIP to pay the charge for using a credit card. That is, the waitstaff earn their tips above and beyond what the restaurant charges, but then have to pay for the privilege if the tip went in on the credit card. Now, everybody agrees that this is the slimiest of the slime, but the question has arisen, is this a legal US practice? Nobody in the VA office of labor and employment seems to know, or be willing to say. Just wondering, and if there are any songs out there on ripping off one's servants, let me know...

Subject: RE: Help: Can You Take Waiter Tips for Own Fees?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 02:58 PM

The restaurant has to pay the credit card company a percentage of the sale. Probably between 1.5% and 5% depending upon the Card and the volume of business the restaurant does. If on that $25.00 steak the tip is $5.00 and the restaurant is giving the wait staff $4.75 They are giving the staff their net tip. I don't see it as being dishonest or illegal but it is being cheap.If they are taking more than the credit card's service charge then they may be in trouble. But it still probably would depend upon the terms of employment of the staff. Some wait staff actually have to pay to work in restaurants where the tips are especially good.

Subject: RE: Help: Can You Take Waiter Tips for Own Fees?
From: Pseudolus
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 03:08 PM

But if all the charges are taken from the tip so that the restaurant gets charged nothing for the transaction, I gotta believe that there's something illegal about that.

Frank

Subject: RE: Help: Can You Take Waiter Tips for Own Fees?
From: Jeremiah McCaw
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 03:41 PM

Nothing illegal about taking the processing charge (as far as I know). Mind you, it's still kinda cheesy. On the other hand, in a restaurant where most of the patrons pay by credit card, maybe it's justified. Gotta keep in mind, 98% of servers are only gonna pay tax on less than 50% of what they actually make in tips.

Easiest solution? Pay the tip portion in cash.

Subject: RE: Help: Can You Take Waiter Tips for Own Fees?
From: kendall
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 03:50 PM

ask your server if thats the restaurants policy. If it is, leave cash.

Subject: RE: Help: Can You Take Waiter Tips for Own Fees?
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 04:06 PM

The Fed usually regulates fair labor practices, I think, not the states. You might try the US Department of Labor. Their web site is www.dol.gov.

It also seems to me that if you don't get satisfaction by treating it as a labor issue, it could also be treated as a fraud issue. The customers have a right to know what they're paying for, don't they? If the customer thinks he's giving a tip, he has the right to expect that ALL of that money is going to the employees, not to the employer. If it isn't, it seems HE is being defrauded. You might try this line of reasoning with your state attorney general's office.

Also, the credit card company might have something to say about this practice. I know, for example, that, in order to set up an account with a credit card company, a business has to sign a contract promising not to charge more when customers use a credit card than when they pay by cash or check. In effect, your employer IS charging more for credit card transactions than for others - he's just charging YOU instead of the customer. This sounds like a violation of the agreement with the credit card company. Surely your employer would NOT want to see VISA, etc., terminate his contract and refuse to do business with him!

I also think you would be within your MORAL rights to ask the customer to give you your tip in cash, and not put it on the credit card. This could be dangerous, however.

Subject: RE: Help: Can You Take Waiter Tips for Own Fees?
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 04:26 PM

Another thought: The reason credit card companies have such a clause in their contracts is that they know they will get less business if customers are charged extra for using credit cards. They will ALSO get less business if waiters/waitresses start discouraging customers from using credit cards. (As they no doubt will do if this practice becomes widespread.) Therefore, the credit card company has an interest in trying to PREVENT this practice from becoming widespread. Whether they will treat is as a high-priority problem, though, is hard to predict. A lot depends, for example, on whether they have ever encountered it before.

Subject: RE: Help: Can You Take Waiter Tips for Own Fees?
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 04:37 PM

Mrrzy: Please don't think me an idiot because I assumed I was addressing the person who was being victimized by this process. I just re-read your post and realized my mistake. Oh, well.

This has got to be a PR disaster for the restaurant in question. I'll bet they change their policy immediately.

Let me know how it turns out.

Subject: RE: Help: Can You Take Waiter Tips for Own Fees?
From: Justa Picker
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 05:14 PM

Most merchandizing companies and restaurants, either absorb or take into account credit card surcharges in their pricing. To outwardly penalize a customer for credit card purchases is just bad business, and will curtail repeat business.

Companies that are in an industry where services (rather than goods, materials, foods, etc.) are being provided or those based on commissionable sales will charge customers a surcharge for credit cards, because they have to take a direct hit otherwise.

I know that when I have visited guitar stores, most will discount for cash or cheque, but will sometimes try and ding you for credit card surcharges if you purchase a guitar and want to pay by credit card. Some don't and will write it off as the cost of doing business and making payment convenient for their customers. Some, that don't have as broad a clientele base (i.e. Mom and Pop operation) will need to be reimbursed for the surcharge.

My personal feeling about it, is that if you have to penalize/inconvenience/charge a customer the credit card surcharge up front and on top of their purchase and whatever applicable taxes there are, you shouldn't take credit cards as a method of payment in the first place. Many businesses charge their customers the same price whether paying by cash, check, credit card or debit card.

Subject: RE: Help: Can You Take Waiter Tips for Own Fees?
From: Bev and Jerry
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 05:18 PM

Mrrzy:

Here's a song about ripping off one's servants: Brisk Butcher

Bev and Jerry

Subject: RE: Help: Can You Take Waiter Tips for Own Fees?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 06:06 PM

It's surely a case of "defrauding labourers of their wages" - one of the "sins crying to heaven for vengeance" in the old red Catechism they taught us at school.

Subject: RE: Help: Can You Take Waiter Tips for Own Fees?
From: Amos
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 06:46 PM

The whole concept behind credit card sin the first place was that merchants pay a small fee but make it up by the volume they get to deliver to because they accept them!!

So now this an employee problem??? Oy!!!

A

Subject: RE: Help: Can You Take Waiter Tips for Own Fees?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 06:58 PM

"credit card sin"... now is that a typo or not?

Subject: RE: Help: Can You Take Waiter Tips for Own Fees?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 07:31 PM

I have a credit-card type arrangement under which I am rebated 15% of the total bill--foot, tip, drinks, and tax in certain participating restaurants! In effect, I think of the rebate as reimbursing me for the tip in most cases.

In such a participating restaurant I will assuredly not pay the tip in cash, because my documented total, on which my rebate is based, will not include a significant part of the actual cost.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Help: Can You Take Waiter Tips for Own Fees?
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 07:51 PM

DaveO: I think your "arrangement" ought to be illegal. The system is set up so customers can rip off their employers and/or the IRS. I don't know if you're using it this way, but I'll bet a lot of people are claiming the "full" amount as a tax deduction or business expense and not reporting the rebate amount as income. I don't think the system could exist if people didn't use it this way.

And while I'm on the subject, the free box of steaks that some glass companies will give you for having your windshield replaced ought to be illegal too. That's just a gimmick for ripping off the insurance companies and making them charge higher premiums to everyone else.

And the fact that, when you pay cash in a restaurant and ask for a receipt -- or when you pay cash to a cab driver, say, and ask for a receipt -- the "receipt" they give you is a blank slip of paper on which you can write any amount you feel like.

And "frequent flier miles"? Your company pays your expenses to go on a business trip (or, if you're self-employed, you claim a travel deduction on the full fare), and guess what! You get a free vacation! Which you don't declare as income, of course. Another ripoff of the taxpayer.

Don't get me started!

Subject: RE: Help: Can You Take Waiter Tips for Own Fees?
From: SINSULL
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 07:54 PM

I tip in cash just to be sure the waiter gets it. Most restaurants also "pool" tips. At the end of the night, the total is divided up among the waiters, chefs, busboys, etc. by percentage.

Although I think the practice is "slimy", it is probably not illegal. And let's face it. No waiter in his right mind is going to discourage customers from using credit cards. Business dinners would be eliminated immediately. Those of us who don't carry a lot of cash would be eliminated.

Nice to be discussing more 'normal", Mrrzy

Subject: RE: Help: Can You Take Waiter Tips for Own Fees?
From: Gary T
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 08:40 PM

Interesting question. As mentioned, the business typically plans to suffer the credit card fee on the premise that it's less costly than losing trade by not accepting the cards. I don't think it's unreasonable for the waitstaff to suffer the tip's percentage of the fee for the same reason--if the customer weren't using the card, the tip given might be less, or even zero if the customer chose not to have come there in the first place.

Businesses that don't charge the waitstaff the tip's portion of the fee are in the position of paying those fees on behalf of the waiters. Thus it costs the house more when the tip is on the card instead of paid separately in cash. That's really not fair to the business.

Although it sounds awful at first hearing, I believe it is a justifiable practice.

Subject: RE: Help: Can You Take Waiter Tips for Own Fees?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 08:52 PM

thanks, all, and yes, normalcy can be refreshing...

So far, I like the idea that it's defrauding the public and the credit card companies even if not the 'trons - will check out dol, too. Will let you know how it goes... and thanks for the song, and more ideas please?

Subject: RE: Help: Can You Take Waiter Tips for Own Fees?
From: Gary T
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 09:54 PM

Sorry to be contentious, but how can it be construed as defrauding the credit card companies? They aren't losing a thing, they aren't being deceived, and they don't care who pays their fees so long as the fees are paid.

I also don't see any sort of consumer fraud issue. It's pretty common knowledge that credit card companies charge a percentage of the transaction, and usually other fees as well (monthly fee, batch [daily deposit] fee, etc.) which the waitstaff is almost certainly NOT being assessed for. If a customer blithely believes that every cent billed on his card for meal and tip goes to the business and waiter respectively, that's a matter of consumer ignorance. No one is being TOLD that no fees are withdrawn from the amount paid, they're just assuming so. It's not fraud just because the consumers guess wrong about the details.

There might be a governmental labor practice issue, depending on exactly what the applicable laws state. Since the business is obligated to pay the fees on the whole amount, including tip, and the business incurs some expense in just having credit card processing available, I don't see anything wrong with their passing the cost on to the waiters. Legal/illegal doesn't always coincide with right/wrong though, so it would be interesting to hear what the government has to say.

Subject: RE: Help: Can You Take Waiter Tips for Own Fees?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 10:04 PM

OK now, per the DOL "tipped employees" fact sheet the tip is the ABSOLUTE property of the employee and if any of it finds its way back to the employer they not only owe it back, they lose the right to pay people less than minimum wage and owe the difference in wages on top! We'll see what will come of that!

Subject: RE: Help: Can You Take Waiter Tips for Own Fees?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 18 Sep 01 - 11:52 AM

In relation to Gary T's comments (ignoring just for the moment the DOL's position that the whole tip belongs to the employee), I can see a restaurant perhaps taking some pro rata share of the credit card costs out of the tip, on the grounds that servicing the credit card aids the waiter too, but as I read the beginning post of this thread the practice was one of taking the entire fee out of the tip. If that's what's going on it's wrong.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Help: Can You Take Waiter Tips for Own Fees?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 18 Sep 01 - 11:56 AM

OK, further reading at the dol website reveals that what I posted above was true except for they are, they really are, allowed to make up the credit card charges out of the tips as long as that doesn't cause the pay to dip below minimum wage. Well, I say it's still slimy, and I'd recommend that everyone ask their 'trons, when paying with a credit card, if they ought to tip in cash.

Subject: RE: Help: Can You Take Waiter Tips for Own Fees?
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 18 Sep 01 - 12:34 PM

I still say the credit card companies ought to oppose this practice.

They did oppose businesses that advertised that they would give a discount to customers who paid cash. Now that practice has virtually disappeared. The few businesses that now do it (or that add a surcharge when customers used a credit card) are probably getting away with it only because they don't advertise that they do it, and the credit card companies aren't aware of it. I'm reasonably certain that if they did know about it, they would threaten to terminate their relationship with that vendor if they didn't cease.

Also, I know that when you buy an airline ticket from a travel agent, the airline pays the credit card fee, not the agent. A waiter is in a position somewhat analogous to that of the travel agent. I can't say whether this arrangement exists because of a policy determined by the credit card company, but I wouldn't be surprised.

Subject: RE: Help: Can You Take Waiter Tips for Own Fees?
From: Bob P
Date: 18 Sep 01 - 01:23 PM

Sinsull broke the code.

I tip with cash too, and try to make sure gets to the intended person.

It's the right thing to do for lots of reasons.

I'd list them, but a bit of imagination would easily crack that code too.

I often wondered how to direct gratuity to particular folks in the kitchen and be insure none gets diverted.

Kitchen workers are generally among the worst treated employees around (low pay, weird hours, few beny's, etc.)

I've heard of people marching directly past the "employee only" signs to stuff green into deserving pockets, but that level of boldness is a bit beyond me.

Subject: RE: Help: Can You Take Waiter Tips for Own Fees?
From: Gypsy
Date: 18 Sep 01 - 11:20 PM

complain to the cc company. If they recieve complaints, and it don't take much, they will pull the account. You can also complain to the fair trade commision. For that matter, the owner of the establishment. cc fees, are all the responsibility of the BUSINESS owner, who chooses to accept the card. They just jack up the price to accomodate the card fee. Believe me, i've seen it too many times. For that matter, it IS illegal to impose: a minumum purchase, and to impose a fee for the use of a credit card. that can get a merchant busted, fined, and all kinds more trouble. gypsygettingoffofhersoapboxnow.....

Subject: RE: Help: Can You Take Waiter Tips for Own Fees?
From: Kim C
Date: 19 Sep 01 - 10:36 AM

Gyspy, I don't know if it's illegal, but I do know that it is strictly laid out in merchant agreements that a merchant cannot impose a minimum charge upon a customer for the privilege of using a credit card. Yet, many of them do.

And it's no use complaining to Visa or Mastercard. I had a credit card stolen several years ago, had much trouble getting it taken care of with the bank, and I contacted Visa corporate headquarters, including all my correspondence with the bank. Visa's answer? Talk to your bank. I wrote back and said, if you had read all of what I sent you, you'd know I already did that. They never contacted me again. Eventually the matter was resolved, but without the help of Visa.

Usually the merchant fees are really not that much- sometimes just pennies - and are simply another cost of doing business. People need not be so cheap about it.

Subject: RE: Help: Can You Take Waiter Tips for Own Fees?
From: GUEST,Robert.
Date: 04 Dec 06 - 12:19 AM

Credit Cards: Where tips are charged on a credit card and the employer must pay the credit card company a percentage on each sale, then the employer may pay the employee the tip, less that percentage. This charge on the tip may not reduce the employee's wage below the required minimum wage. The amount due the employee must be paid no later than the regular pay day and may not be held while the employer is awaiting reimbursement from the credit card company.

Taken directly from Dept. of Labor website www.dol.gov.
Not illegal. JUST CHEAP!!!!

Subject: RE: Help: Can You Take Waiter Tips for Own Fees?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 04 Dec 06 - 01:49 AM

Not Illegal just cheap! I'd refuse to do any repeat business with any restaurants that practiced this. I would pay the tip in cash & let the managerment know they'd not see me again & why. I'm not above asking the waitstaff if they're receiving the full tip either. The same goes for folks that work on commission.

Barry

Subject: RE: Help: Can You Take Waiter Tips for Own Fees?
From: GUEST,padgett
Date: 04 Dec 06 - 04:11 AM

Tips should be paid directly to waiters really, although I suspect that these are pooled and then divided up or fights will break out (in uk cause for instant dismissal)

Restaurants often put on a 'service charge' but this is part of the total bill.

Does this charge always go the waiters/esses? Will depend on each restaurant but as far as credit cards are concerned just total bill paid and subject to any charges

I respect of musicians, how are they paid? By the employer or by customers in the form of tips. This brings into question whether an employee or self employed in UK, can make a great deal of difference to tax treatment

Ray

Subject: RE: Help: Can You Take Waiter Tips for Own Fees?
From: s&r
Date: 04 Dec 06 - 04:20 AM

From European court it seems that cheque and card tips are the property of the employer.

I thought thast was also the case with cash tips unless they were specifically given to an individual.

Stu

Subject: RE: Help: Can You Take Waiter Tips for Own Fees?
From: GUEST,padgett
Date: 04 Dec 06 - 05:28 AM

Food for thought

So if you are served by an individual waiter give tip directly to him/her?

Do not leave on the table? Pay full amount due to restaurant, that is do not say keep the change [for waiter] my square brackets as being understood!

Do not permit a pool of money to accumulate as this may be taken as being 'pay' by the employer, likley to be taken/construed as being earnings for all sorts of things such as low pay limits in UK!

Tips are of course taxable income in UK

What a mine field in service industries where the attitude to waiters is I think a bit better in UK than it is perceived to be in the US
Ray

Subject: RE: Help: Can You Take Waiter Tips for Own Fees?
From: Scrump
Date: 04 Dec 06 - 06:05 AM

(Should this be above the line?)

I hate the practice of tipping. It's only perpetuated because of extremely low pay in the catering industry and avoids employers having to pay more. I'd rather pay more for things, have the staff paid more and not have to worry about tipping (how much should I leave? etc. etc.). Same applies to cabs, hotel porters, etc. It's a minefield, knowing when/how much, with the guidelines different in different countries.

OK, I wouldn't have the discretion as I do now, to tip if I get good service and not tip if I don't - but if the meal or service is bad I'm unlikely to return anyway.

Subject: RE: Help: Can You Take Waiter Tips for Own Fees?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 04 Dec 06 - 06:50 AM

I've been a waitress and I've been the customer.... I don't tip very often and I certainly never add the "suggested" 15% of the bill if I'm paying by card.    If the food is expensive, then I certainly won't leave anything. I know the cost of ingredients and there's no way that 3 scoops of icecream and a lump of squirty cream can cost £5. The charge should cover EVERYTHING... the ingredients, the preparation, all the staff's wages, the lighting, the heating, ground rent, whatever...

As a waitress, if I recieved a cash tip, it was shared with the other kitchen staff. If the customer paid by card (less usual in those days) or cheque and added a little extra, we saw nothing. We were kind and courteous to all customers alike, even the bloody annoying woman with the smelly poodle who came in every Thursday and had the same meal every time, which despite our protestations, she shared with the poodle. We did not expect tips unlike the waiting staff seem to these days.. I was in an expensive cafe last Saturday, paid my £27 bill with £30 cash and the waiter made no attempt to give me my change (he didn't know how to make a vodka martini either...).

A tip should be a gratuity, something given as well as, rather than instead of payment for a service rendered. Unfortunately, the UK tax laws state that gratuities should be included in any self assessments... so that bottle of scotch or box of choccies should also be included!

LTS

Subject: RE: Help: Can You Take Waiter Tips for Own Fees?
From: GUEST,marc Bernier
Date: 04 Dec 06 - 08:12 AM

I used to work as a chef in a fairly upscale restaurant where I live. This is in the Us so it's probably different than Europe or the UK. The wait staff here work for significantly less than minimum wage, and do rely on gratuity 'for a job well done'. While it was the restaurants policy that the staff kept any cash tip's they recieved, any thing on a card was both charged a processing fee, and paid in their weekly check so they paid tax on the gross amount. I'm now in the habit of leaving a cash tip for a job well done.

Subject: RE: Help: Can You Take Waiter Tips for Own Fees?
From: GUEST,memyself
Date: 04 Dec 06 - 08:50 AM

"I don't tip very often" - Is this common behaviour in the UK? In my part of North America, it's unacceptable among most people. The tip is considered the payment for the service. Not leaving a tip is considered a deliberate insult and/or a statement that the service was appalling.

Subject: RE: Help: Can You Take Waiter Tips for Own Fees?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 04 Dec 06 - 09:14 AM

In the UK, tipping wasn't really the done thing. A tip is that little extra to say thank you for a job well done, it is not part of the wage and should not be expected. It also depends on the establishment... Would you tip the spotty oik in the McBurgerHut for passing the food over the counter? How many times have you been handed a flame grilled ovenmit and told the waiter to 'keep the change'? You wouldn't. So why should you tip a waiter in a restaurant who's handed you a char-grilled 100% fresh beef patty, accompanied by French fried potatoes, crisp green side salad, and sesame seeded, freshly baked roll; a glass of iced cola served with a slice of lemon (more or less the same meal, albeit on a plate and with a lemon slice), that's probably cost you twice as much already?

In recent years (at least since I stopped working in the catering trade) it has become more common for customers to tip. Now it seems that waiting staff expect a tip and get very snotty if it's not forthcoming.

"The tip is considered the payment for the service." - sorry, but isn't that what wages are for? If everyone stopped tipping then maybe restauranteurs would have to pay their staff at least the minimum wage to get them to stay. No-one should have to rely on tips to make rent.

"I don't tip very often" - Is this common behaviour in the UK? - it is when your disposable income is not enough to allow you to eat out more than once a month!

LTS

Subject: RE: Help: Can You Take Waiter Tips for Own Fees?
From: GUEST,memyself
Date: 04 Dec 06 - 09:26 AM

I'm not interested in arguing with you; I'm just curious as to whether your attitude is peculiar to you or whether it's fairly common in your part of the world and is considered socially acceptable or even the norm there. It certainly isn't here. And the general feeling is, if you can't afford to tip, you can't afford to eat out. Unless it IS at one of those fast-grease pits.

Subject: RE: Help: Can You Take Waiter Tips for Own Fees?
From: Scrump
Date: 04 Dec 06 - 09:40 AM

The point I was making is that tipping is an anachronism and should be outlawed, and replaced by a decent living wage for the staff in these industries. Why should waiters, hotel porters and cabbies (etc.) be different from anyone else? Do you tip a train driver, a shop assistant or garage mechanic? No, not usually anyway, because it's not 'expected' or 'the done thing' like it is in restaurants, cabs, etc. They're just doing their job like anyone else, and should be paid a proper wage, and not expect tips. Shop workers get poor pay but they don't expect or get tips - what's the difference between them and waiting staff?

Yes, I do give tips where expected (restaurants, etc.) at present because I realise these workers (waiters etc.) depend on them, but I'd rather not have to worry about tipping and just pay the bill, which I realise would have to be higher. If (say) 15% is indeed the going rate, then put bills (and the staff pay) up by that amount and have done with it. Then we can just pay the bill without having to worry about how much extra to leave, etc.

The argument "if tipping were abolished the staff wouldn't have the incentive to provide a good service" doesn't wash with me - if I get good service, I go back; if not, I don't. Same as any other business I'm a customer of.

Subject: RE: Help: Can You Take Waiter Tips for Own Fees?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 04 Dec 06 - 09:48 AM

It's not just peculiar to me, although I am peculiar....

There is a whole generation of about my father's age who wouldn't even consider tipping. They get paid a wage to do the job. Some chocolates or a bottle of something at Christmas is the most they might expect to receive as a thank you. If the wage is not enough to live on, get another job instead of or as well as. However (disclaimer notice!!), it depends a great deal on how the customer was brought up and where. I come from a farming community where they grew the food and knew its worth. If we ever ate out, it was a special occasion and we saved for it or went without something else. Lunch in a restaurant or cafe was a treat for us, dinner in a restaurant totally unheard of! My father was not inclined to 'pay twice' for one service.

Now for all you out there who own a restaurant and are inclined to give me bad service knowing I don't tip very often if I come in... I always say thank you and I never season my food without tasting it first...

LTS

Subject: RE: Help: Can You Take Waiter Tips for Own Fees?
From: GUEST,memyself
Date: 04 Dec 06 - 11:03 AM

I'm just curious about how customs vary from one place to another. I know all the arguments. And for the record, I've done some hard physical labour for minimal or sometimes no wage in my day. Including a fair bit of farm work - which I would go back to tomorrow if I could make a living at it. (I also know that many farmers feel that they are the only ones in the world who do an honest day's work). I certainly didn't grow up dining out, either ...

Subject: RE: Help: Can You Take Waiter Tips for Own Fees?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 04 Dec 06 - 12:57 PM

To get one thing strait. Tipping in the US is far different than tipping in the UK & Ireland, I don't know about the rest of Europe. As stated above here in the US it's an insult to the waiter & staff to not leave something. I won't order if I'm not prepared to leave a 20% TIPS (To Insure Proper Service) for a job done well & pleasing, 15% for an OK job, 10% for a poor job & 5% because they're not getting paid enough in the 1st place & to let them & the management know the job was piss poor. In cash if there's a question about who's getting the money. In the US it's not expected to tip in fast food joints, ice cream parlors, sub joints & pizzas places, food stands, donut shops & etc. only in resturants & bars & such where you're actually served by a wait staff or bartender. Some places include in the total bill an 18% tip for parties larger than ___ . If you're not gonna leave a tip don't go there for the service (in the US) the waitstaff earns this as part of there pay. By law here they can receive far below the minimum wage & have to rely on performing their jobs well in order to survive. The kitchen staff IMHO doesn't deserve any of the waitstaff's TIPS as they do get paid a fair wage (or should). As far as pooling the tips, that's there concern, though I think it should belong to only the staff that was serving me.

Barry

Subject: RE: Help: Can You Take Waiter Tips for Own Fees?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 04 Dec 06 - 01:50 PM

I live in the US and I tip, although with gritted teeth. As a union rep I am very conscious of the fact that tips are the excuse that restaurant owners use to pay substandard wages. It is like piecework in the garment trade and is based upon the theory that productivity makes up for a poor base wage while penalizing the slow or shoddy worker. As mentioned above, there are a lot of factors which go into good service.

It would be a pleasure to see a notice stating:

    "There is not need to tip our staff, they are well compensated professional food service people."

Then, maybe we can get rid of the tip jar at the local Starschmucks, too.

If you read the [un]Fair Labor Standards Act you will see it enshrined with all of the the other inequities foisted upon us. It may be standardized but it ain't Fair.