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Subject: WTC Attackers: An Alternative View From: Amos Date: 20 Sep 01 - 03:34 PM JJane's Foreign Report Who did it? Foreign Report presents an alternative view Israel's military intelligence service, Aman, The two men have not been seen for some time. The Iraqis, who for several years paid smaller groups "We've only got scraps of information, not the full Mughniyeh was the only one believed to have tried it A psychopath "Bin Laden is a schoolboy in comparison with Experts on Iraq and Saddam Hussein also believe that Our sources believe that it will be very difficult to Mughniyeh, 48, is a "sick man", says an intelligence [Detailed list of Mughniyeh operations removed for It was the assassination of one man in March 1984 that is A year later, in a combined CIA/Mossad operation, a In February 1992, Israeli helicopter gunships The reprisal for the attack in Argentina came in Our Israeli sources claim to see Mughniyeh's 978 of 1252 words |
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Subject: RE: BS: WTC Attackers: An Alternative View From: Donuel Date: 20 Sep 01 - 03:40 PM If this information is unimpeachable and we still make Osama the prime suspect there is the possibility that another strategic reason is at play. Namely control of the proposed oil pipline from the Caspian sea through Afghanistan and into Pakistan. Iraq has been suggested as a respondsible party to the WTC attack a number of times. |
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Subject: RE: BS: WTC Attackers: An Alternative View From: Troll Date: 20 Sep 01 - 03:42 PM Thanks Amos. Janes is usually pretty accurate in it's accessments. If this is accurate, bin Laden might well NOT have been the man behind the WTC atrocity. He has however,taken credit for other acts of terrorism and should be stopped. I wonder what Washington makes of all this? troll |
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Subject: RE: BS: WTC Attackers: An Alternative View From: Marymac90 Date: 20 Sep 01 - 04:03 PM And an eye for an eye, until everyone is blind.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: WTC Attackers: An Alternative View From: Troll Date: 20 Sep 01 - 04:09 PM No Mary. The last man standing will still be able to see. troll |
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Subject: RE: BS: WTC Attackers: An Alternative View From: Mountain Dog Date: 20 Sep 01 - 04:35 PM ...that he is alone... |
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Subject: RE: BS: WTC Attackers: An Alternative View From: Kim C Date: 20 Sep 01 - 04:35 PM Mister wondered about Iraq his own self. I'm skeptical but I don't rule it out entirely. Seems to me that just about anything is possible. |
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Subject: RE: BS: WTC Attackers: An Alternative View From: Amos Date: 20 Sep 01 - 05:11 PM Another alternative perspective. Apologies for the length but I thought it better not to edit. I have no guarantee of the provenance of this document, so you can take it at face value or not...excerpted from an email and embedding a prior email: I served as legal counsel at the Christic Institute during the 1980s. The major case we pursued was a racketeering case against the private, off-the-shelf, covert operators conducting the Iran-contra operation. During that litigation, I got a good look at the dark side of the U.S. democratic experiment. To summarize that perspective, the commitment to democracy unleashed great creative potential for innovation that in turn produced massive wealth. The commitment to democracy then got lost in the pursuit of materialism. The large corporations received recognition in the law as persons, their contributions polluted the democratic process, the government became an extension of their blind advocacy of an unlimited right to devour the Earth's resources, and the military-industrial-intelligence complex became a second government within the government holding more power than the publicly presented government. To preserve and enhance the national security state, things were done supposedly in the interest of the American people that the people knew nothing about and not have approved had they known. Death squads, assassinations, subversion of indigenous movements, overthrow of democratically elected governments, and other manifestations of the national security state agenda took place out of sight. Only occasionally did these actions surface, such as Cointelpro conducted by the FBI to discredit and destroy dissenting groups. A dream image captured the essence of what was happening. I was watching people sitting on the ground picnicking with their families while a band played happy music in a nearby bandstand. Behind the picnickers was a high, black wall that the people did not notice. Every now and then, a figure would slip out from under the wall, go out into the world and perform some abominable act, and then slip back again - all without anyone noticing. That is what U.S. history looks like when you step back and objectively observe what has been done. Outside dreamtime, our investigation into the history of U.S. covert operations revealed the patterns of behavior that manifest in such events as Iran-contra. During the Iran-contra involvement, I met various people inside the intelligence establishment who continued to struggle to prevent the abuses that were bringing the U.S. into disrepute throughout the world. This evening, I received a message from one of those people regarding the events unfolding today. I neither reject nor embrace the analysis set forth in the message. Ever since the Iran-contra investigation, I have kept an open mind regarding how to interpret unfolding events that are often very different from what they seem on the surface. I send you this message to provide you with a perspective that you will not hear or see on CNN or any other major media outlet. In times like these, it is even more important to keep our wits about us and not be sucked into anyone else's script, even this one. Aloha, Lanny 11:00 p.m.; 9/11/01 ========= The Message ========= "Aloha to you my friend, I know that the many discoveries and lessons we shared during the Christic investigation are still fresh in your memory. I have applied our analytical technique to the events unfolding today and thought you might enjoy the musings that resulted. There is always the onion. You peel off one layer and there is another layer underneath. I think Warren Christopher sought to encourage such peeling on CNN today. He said that while we may rush to conclude the bin Laden is the author of the events, it is important to dig deeper than that surface analysis to find the true perpetrators. As with most of the liberal Democrats, Christopher is not going to come right out and say what he thinks he knows. After all, during Iran-contra, when Congressman Jack Brooks of Texas asked Oliver North about his plan to suspend the U.S. Constitution (hatched inside FEMA), it was liberal Democrat Daniel Inouye who cut off the question and shuffled that subject off into executive session. Let's start with the Taliban. Russia invades Afghanistan. The CIA is loosed to fight them. Actually, as you know, the CIA is simply the visible agency for the much larger group of agencies that conduct U.S. covert policies and that are in turn part of an international network of covert organizations pursuing common policies in many instances. The CIA looks for a group that will meet certain criteria, such as fanatical enough to conduct a guerilla war, disciplined, hardy, and amenable to outside support to fulfill their perceived mission. Enter the Taliban, a relatively obscure group preaching a fanatical version of Islam that bears little resemblance to the actual religious teachings and is rejected by most Islamic movements. The value of their beliefs is that the Russians fit their model of the unbeliever, who must be destroyed. On the border near Pakistan, they are available. Kissinger had already put the "tilt toward Pakistan" in motion. So the onion now has three layers - U.S./CIA, Pakistan, Taliban. Arming, training, and supplying the Taliban through Pakistan, the CIA experiences a rare success. The Taliban and others inflict so much damage on the Russian forces that Russian public opinion (similar to U.S. public opinion during Vietnam) turns against the war and forces Russia to withdraw. Now armed and dangerous, the Taliban turn their guns on competing groups within Afghanistan and rise to national dominance. Women, foreign missionaries, and other groups not holding a sufficiently holy place to be considered righteous become targets of Taliban fanaticism. Ben Laden is considered a true believer with the resources to do a lot of harm to the unrighteous and finds a home in Afghanistan. So the onion now has four layers: U.S./CIA; Pakistan; Taliban; Ben Laden. The final layer of the onion is the semi-independent cells with the Laden network. Even better would be to have sent recruits in to Laden to form such cells that would actually operate under control external to Laden. Enter Bush and Company. With practically all the judges on the federal bench now appointees of Nixon, Reagan, and Bush (the elder), stealing an election through the Supreme Court is a piece of cake. The Iran-contra gang comes storming back into power. The appointment of Richard Armitage as Deputy Secretary of State is like a rooster crowing in terms of announcing who is in charge. Colin Powell is window dressing. The old gang sets about doing what they always wanted to do (loot and pillage) and undoing what they always wanted undone (environmental protection, civil rights, etc.) They follow the old axiom of do everything controversial you can in the first months of office to give people time to forget. Withdrawing from the Kyoto Treaty, leaving arsenic in the water, violating and then withdrawing from the ABM treaty, promulgating a "reward your friends" energy policy, etc. all will predictably lead to an alienation of the electorate. Sure enough, the opposition begins to strengthen. Your campaign to stop deployment of low frequency active sonar is only one of many campaigns that have mobilized people, fattened the coffers of opposition organizations, and produced a greater willingness to challenge the actions of the government. The next step is to powerfully impact the emotional body of the electorate and cause the nation to rally behind the President and the military. The Gulf War model is not readily available. You remember how U.S. Ambassador April Glaspie told Hussein that the dispute between Kuwait and Iraq was a local matter and how Hussein swallowed that fly like a hungry trout. Then Bush (the elder) got to unite the world to drive Hussein out of Kuwait. Those types of manipulation are not so easy to find. So back to the onion. The terrorist bin Laden or elements of his network are available as a surrogate. Only this time the purpose of the surrogate is not to fight someone else. The purpose is to terrorize the U.S. population into embracing Bush and Company. Laden's big actions to date have generally involved getting a bomb into some place where it can cause harm, such as a truck aimed at an embassy gate or a small boat aimed at a large ship. This time, however, he will make a great leap forward into being able to recruit four teams that are capable of hijacking four different airplanes from three different airports, conducting the hijacking with such swiftness that none of the legitimate crew can punch in the hijack code, flying those airplanes without the crew in place, navigating those airplanes to separate targets with high impact potential (Trade Center innocents, military hq, and presidential retreat plus the passengers), and impacting three of the four targets in a very short period of time, thereby inflicting the damage in such a way as to have the most emotional impact on the population. The onion provides plausible deniability. Assistance will be provided through cooperating elements of Pakistani intelligence and then through cooperating elements in the Taliban to bin Laden and perhaps on to elements of Laden's network operating without his direct control. The network cell conducting the operation will be suicide squads, perhaps recruited from the Palestinian population. Deniability for everyone and obliteration for the perpetrators. Pretty clean all around. Laden will never know that he is a pawn of the U.S. national security state. He will believe that Allah has suddenly blessed him with resources and capability that previously eluded him. He will be the trout. Once he takes the bait, he will be the new demon, the country will rally behind the President and the military to exorcise their fears, and everyone will forget all the terrible things Bush and Company did since January. I would assume that you will have a very hard time getting anyone to pay any attention to low frequency active sonar, particularly as your position can be painted as impeding military preparedness at a time when terrorists and rogue nations are on a rampage. Sorry about the whales. As you may have noted, President Bush (the younger) appointed his campaign manager head of FEMA. While being given charge of an agency that provides financial and other assistance in time of flood and other natural disaster may not seem like much of a reward for returning the White House to the national security state, there are still all those pesky little executive orders that essentially turn the country over to FEMA in times of national instability. As events unfolded today, FEMA took charge. Once the deed is done, tracks are to be covered. An amusing CNN story today was the "leak" from law enforcement that the FBI intended to execute search warrants tomorrow in Hollywood and Daytona Beach, Florida. Of course, law enforcement, particularly in highly sensitive cases, always broadcasts in advance to potential suspects their intent to conduct a search the next day. CNN, which would almost certainly withhold a story about a planned military action during wartime, somehow cannot contain itself and breaks the news to the perpetrators that a trail needs to be covered. Alternatively, the search sites need to be sown with the necessary evidence to continue pointing the finger in the "right" direction. Perhaps they will find a diary of one of the perpetrators detailing their service to Allah against the U.S. Satan and their allegiance to bin Laden. The FBI will find whatever it is that others want them to find. It will be interesting to watch as the cover up continues. Will evidence be lost? Will evidence be fabricated? Witnesses die mysteriously? Stay tuned if you can stomach it all. Well color me cynical if you will. I have seen enough of how these guys operate to find this entire episode simply too useful politically and too perfect in execution. I hope you enjoy these musings. No need to reply." |
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Subject: RE: BS: WTC Attackers: An Alternative View From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 20 Sep 01 - 08:05 PM And there are probably more theories around. Well, I know there are. And there will be more.
The distinction has to be made between those who carried out the act, those who planned it, those who ordered it, and those who applauded it. There's no reason why they should all come from the same organisation or have the same motives.
Assuming the objective is to stop it happening again, and that the second theory there isn't anything like the truth (pray God), sorting out those different elements is important. What I worry about is that for reasons to do with satisfying public opinion, they might pick what to do not on a basis of what is going to be most effective, but what is going to be most dramatic and least politically costly. |
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Subject: RE: BS: WTC Attackers: An Alternative View From: GUEST,Pete M at work Date: 20 Sep 01 - 09:08 PM I caught the tail end of an interview with a (BBC I believe) correspondent who had visited and interviewed Bin Laden relatively recently. The most telling point I think was that for most of the time of the "interview" Bin Laden 'devoured' (the correspondent's word) copies of Saudi newspapers the correspondent had with him. It appeared his communications were so sparse that he was not aware current affairs in his home country, so the idea that he is actively controlling terrorist operations seems unlikely. That is not to say that he does not approve of them, or even finance them indirectly, but it does seem to reduce the likelyhood of direct involvement. Pete M |
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Subject: RE: BS: WTC Attackers: An Alternative View From: Troll Date: 20 Sep 01 - 09:33 PM WOW! Amos. Right off the "conspiracy" sites. But no black helicopters. Dang! PeteM you are correct;bin Laden does not oversee the operations of the various terrorists he trains. Heres how it works. When the training is compelted, the operarive is expected to go out on his own, set up his own cell with little or no contact with other cells, raise his own money,(credit card fraud seems a favorite)and plan and execute his own operations. If he is sucessful, the whole organization gets the glory. If he fails, he goes down alone. Very simple, very clever, and very hard to stop. WTC was just the begining, folks. troll |
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Subject: RE: BS: WTC Attackers: An Alternative View From: Wolfgang Date: 21 Sep 01 - 05:18 AM The first article Amos has posted is very interesting. It is considered in parts unreliable here in Germany for that reason: One of our indications suggested that Imad Mughniyeh met with some of his dormant agents on secret trips to Germany. If he is what he is described to be he should be more intelligent than to run that risk for the same aim could be reached with much less risk if the other person travels. And even if he did it once the plural in 'trips' isn't believed over here. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: WTC Attackers: An Alternative View From: GeorgeH Date: 21 Sep 01 - 06:55 AM McGrath, if the US is to protect its citizens from acts of terrorism then it needs to address the issue of why, as a nation (although "as a Government" would be more appropriate), it is so hated in so much of the world. Unfortunately I see no sign of that happening. The biggest danger - in humanitarian terms - in the US failing to address, or even to recognise, that hatred is the ease with which they confuse those who applaud the act with those who actively support it, or even organise it. It is, of course, tragic that any human being could applaud human suffering - on this or any lesser scale. However those whose own lives have been largely dehumanised, and whose day-by-day sufferings are worse than most of un in the west can imagine, may not have quite the same perspective on humnanity . . Changing tack, I find all this talk of the attack requiring some massive organisation behind it the most daft conspiracy theory of all . . . Given the human resources (however-many souls ready to give their lives for the cause) and the funds (not vast, compared, say, to the illegal funding going into some drug deals) I could have organised such an attack, as (I guess) could most members of Mudcat . . . Or, put another way, its organisational demands are no greater than those of some of the IRA operations on the UK mainland. This tragic attack is something the US was wide open to. Perhaps it's understandable that it's reluctant to admit this fact . . George |
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Subject: RE: BS: WTC Attackers: An Alternative View From: GUEST,petr Date: 21 Sep 01 - 04:36 PM George, definitely the US was vulnerable (and as a free and Democratic society it will be) but the Israeli Aman Intelligence Agency suggests it would take 2 years to plan such an attack and involve at least a 100 people. I dont think it is as easy as you say. ALso the point that the US is not likely to address the causes and why so many people hate it (see my post in the War on terrorism thread) I disagree, I think it has already caused a lot of rethinking in the State Dept. and the spook agencies. I dont believe any US foreign policy action in the Middle East from now on will not involve any considerations of its ramifications in this region. I also disagree with the fundamental idea that this is something to do with Washingtons jingoistic past - and inequality between the rich and poor. Saudi is a rich nation and still a dictatorship (with many Bin Laden supporters) Its also not the function of the US or any other nation to go in and change govts and 'force' them into democracy (rather to let the people in those countries to do it themselves) While I feel that terrorism would have less support in the Islamic world if they were all economically well off and more educated I think there is a lot more to it - ie. the colonial past, the US support of Israel (which is unlikely to change) even the crusades. |