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Folk, Blues & Politics-no contradiction
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Folk, Blues & Politics-no contradiction |
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Subject: Lyr Add: OLD TIN SOLDIER From: blt Date: 25 Sep 01 - 03:27 PM Perhaps this should be a BS thread, but I am curious what others think about the, to me, inevitable relationship between politics and folk music. I came of age as a folk singer during the Viet Nam war and thought of myself, at the ripe age of 12, as a protest singer. I thought of myself as part of a tradition of songwriters and singers who reflected back to the world a perspective that was much less than mainstream; critical but not nihilistic (there is a difference), and focused on social change. I still think, and write, this way--it is not a habit I really care to break. I wrote these lyrics about 6 months ago. OLD TIN SOLDIER Just an old tin solder My heaven crossed by The wake of a star that fades with each year's turning Who can I run to With history on the brink And locked in a cage like a hawk with a broken wing I've searched the whole world over many times Found and lost my eyes Spent all reason And there's the answer waiting down the hall Where a brave child calls So free and easy White knights and carnivores Like modern dogs of war Howl at the moon of dust and desperation Who are they praying to? An ancient god or two Give them a gun they'll shoot down the neighbor's son You've searched the whole world over many times Found and lost your eyes Spent all reason And there's the answer waiting down the hall Where a brave child calls So free and easy blt |
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Subject: RE: Folk, Blues & Politics-no contradiction From: radriano Date: 25 Sep 01 - 07:11 PM Yet all folk music is not political, you must admit. |
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Subject: RE: Folk, Blues & Politics-no contradiction From: RWilhelm Date: 26 Sep 01 - 12:15 AM Nor all politics musical. |
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Subject: RE: Folk, Blues & Politics-no contradiction From: DougR Date: 26 Sep 01 - 01:19 AM Radriano: but that more people kept that in mind. DougR |
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Subject: RE: Folk, Blues & Politics-no contradiction From: catspaw49 Date: 26 Sep 01 - 01:27 AM Well lessee here.......Music can be politics, music is not always politics, politics is not always music.............That about sums it up. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: Folk, Blues & Politics-no contradiction From: toadfrog Date: 26 Sep 01 - 01:42 AM Music is sometimes politicks, but politics is always musick, and music makes the world go round, but politics will stop it at last! |
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Subject: RE: Folk, Blues & Politics-no contradiction From: blt Date: 26 Sep 01 - 03:04 AM To me, the separation of folk from politics is difficult to make because I don't have an understanding of the two as separate at all. I know that not everyone feels this way, one friend once told me that he feels his music is one place that politics doesn't intrude (his "day job" was as an activist conducting research on the far right), but my experience has been different. I think I was greatly influenced by the use of music in the civil rights and labor movements. I also loved the spare commentary found in Childe ballads. I think what is compelling to me is the human need to describe what is currently happening in a manner that includes the literal fact and the deeply felt emotion. I understand this as political because so much pushes us to censor what we say, think or feel. I don't mean to regenerate the "what is folk" discussion, but folk means to me that I can challenge this censor by what I choose to sing, what instrument I choose to play, who I choose to play with. blt |
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Subject: RE: Folk, Blues & Politics-no contradiction From: Amos Date: 26 Sep 01 - 02:14 PM All folk music is born in a political context of some kind, whether heavily obvious (The World Turned Upside Down, Black, Brown and White Blues) or transparent in the background (Polly, Pretty Polly, Good Mornin' Blues). And....??? |
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Subject: RE: Folk, Blues & Politics-no contradiction From: RWilhelm Date: 26 Sep 01 - 03:52 PM most politics is muzak, yeah |
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Subject: RE: Folk, Blues & Politics-no contradiction From: DougR Date: 26 Sep 01 - 08:24 PM 'Splain to me, Amos, what the political implications are of the following songs: Sweet Betsy From Pike Froggy Went A Courtin' The Riddle Song Goodnight Irene The Devils Nine Questions I could name more. DougR |
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Subject: RE: Folk, Blues & Politics-no contradiction From: toadfrog Date: 26 Sep 01 - 11:52 PM Well for starters, Doug, "Frog Went a Courting" was a satirical attack on Queen Elizabeth's proposed marriage to the Duc d'Alenco. And on-line research shows "Betsy from Pike" to be an anti-Mormon screed, attacking Brigham Young. |
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Subject: RE: Folk, Blues & Politics-no contradiction From: DougR Date: 26 Sep 01 - 11:56 PM Pretty obscure politics, though, wouldn't you say, toad? Not much of a hint to the audience were a performer to sing either song, is there? I guess he/she could use that explanation in the introduction, but I doubt it would have much relevance to politics today. You disagree? DougR |
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Subject: RE: Folk, Blues & Politics-no contradiction From: DougR Date: 27 Sep 01 - 12:09 AM Toad: I clicked on the blue clickies you provided. I don't quite see why a "satirical attack on Queen Elizabeth's marriage to Duc de'Alinco classifies the song as political. I would classify it as satirical myself. I appreciate you're supplying me the lyrics to Sweet Betsy From Pike, but I already know the song. I clicked on the blue clicky but I see no reference to the Mormans or Brigham Young. Am I doing something wrong when I click on the blue clicky? DougR |
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Subject: RE: Folk, Blues & Politics-no contradiction From: RWilhelm Date: 27 Sep 01 - 01:48 AM I realize this is not what the original poster asked but since we are tracking down political roots, here is a list of bawdy songs we recently performed and I would like to know (I really would) the political circumstances around each:
The Jolly Tinker |
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Subject: RE: Folk, Blues & Politics-no contradiction From: RWilhelm Date: 27 Sep 01 - 01:57 AM The first list was magically transformed. I'll never understand this place. |
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Subject: RE: Folk, Blues & Politics-no contradiction From: Mudlark Date: 27 Sep 01 - 02:32 AM Well, Passengers Will Please Refrain not withstanding, there are a lot of songs in the folk idiom that clearly are political. What bothers me about that is that so many (not all, I know!) are so clunky...it's like polemics often doom a song to lousy melody and crude (i.e. prosaically prdictable) lyrics. I think their main claim to fame is that they are easy to sing, so it's possible to get a whole crowd going with them in a short time. But I'd rather read about politics and listen to someone singing The Great Silkie. On the other hand, songs that come up out of oppression, that speak with passion and guttiness (Small Change Got Rained on with his Own 38, for instance, or The Drinking Gourd, or the Irish Immigrant song) can be very powerful.. (I will now wait for all the exceptions to come in! *G*) |
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Subject: RE: Folk, Blues & Politics-no contradiction From: GUEST,Les/ Manchester uk Date: 27 Sep 01 - 01:55 PM Hello from the home of the Industrial Revoltion, the City next door to McColl's Dirty Old Town. What ever the origin of songs we call folk, many survived in the lives of working people. An egaliterian view of songs values this heritage and so folksong and post war leftwingery came together in the folk revival of the 50s and 60s, and good it was and continues to be. I leave it to someone else to explain why dance (ritual or social) has a much more right wing constituency. |
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Subject: RE: Folk, Blues & Politics-no contradiction From: radriano Date: 27 Sep 01 - 06:29 PM Still, I say not all folk music is political. A lot of traditional music and song is not politically based. I'm not saying politics is bad but just that the term "folk music" includes a broad range of stuff. |
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Subject: RE: Folk, Blues & Politics-no contradiction From: Jon Freeman Date: 27 Sep 01 - 07:05 PM Folk music reflects on aspects of life, politics is only one such aspect. Jon |
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Subject: RE: Folk, Blues & Politics-no contradiction From: DougR Date: 27 Sep 01 - 08:35 PM I agree, Jon. Certainly there are political folk songs but there are also just folk songs, IMO. DougR |
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Subject: RE: Folk, Blues & Politics-no contradiction From: toadfrog Date: 27 Sep 01 - 08:56 PM Well, Doug, it is political, I think, not to want Queen Elizabeth to marry a Frog (abusive for Frenchman). If your point is that those political issues are not the same as those that concern most of us today, I agree. As to Betsy from Pike, the clicky discloses these verses They stopped at Salt Lake to inquire of the way, Where Brigham declared that sweet Betsy should stay; But Betsy got frightened and ran like a deer While Brigham stood pawing the ground like a steer. Basically, I really don't think that folk songs have to be political. Moreover, I agree that people who insist that they do have to be political get very annoying. And they certainly don't have to be left-wing. See the recent thread on German folk music; |
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Subject: RE: Folk, Blues & Politics-no contradiction From: toadfrog Date: 27 Sep 01 - 09:06 PM I forgot to mention, in case it is unclear: In 1870, the Mormons were polygamous, so that the inference is that Brigham wanted Betsy for one of his wives, and was prepared to use force to accomplish this end. And that notwithstanding Brigham's exhalted status, she found the prospect disagreeable. Moreover, the phrase, "stood pawing the ground like a steer" suggests that the President of the LDS was not only high-handed, but also lecherous. |
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Subject: RE: Folk, Blues & Politics-no contradiction From: DougR Date: 28 Sep 01 - 07:02 PM I had not seen that verse, toadfrog. I can well imagine, based on the time and the political issue at that time, that verses might be added to a song which could turn the song from just a folk song to a political song. I know of no examples, however. I, myself, prefer songs that do not have a political theme. DougR |
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Subject: RE: Folk, Blues & Politics-no contradiction From: Amos Date: 28 Sep 01 - 07:08 PM I need to clarify what I said, obviously. I did NOT say that all folk music had a political intent or political implication or political message. I said all folk songs occur in SOME kind of political context -- a context involving the dynamics of groups interacting for advantage, cooperation, commerce, conquest or what have you. The political context behind Betsy of Pike included Manifest Destiny as a concept, the economies of Westward expansion and the boundary layer where the indigenous occupants of the land met the ineluctable progression of takers thereof. It has a lot of Anglo Saxon and other elements in it, too which is why its humor is the sort it is. A. |
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Subject: RE: Folk, Blues & Politics-no contradiction From: toadfrog Date: 28 Sep 01 - 11:48 PM Yes, Amos. And when it is qualified to that extent, it is surely true. But as qualified, it also doesn't say much. It's like Jung's theory about myths. It is sufficiently general to above criticism, but one suspects that when it is applied, the result will not necessary be very satisfying. The song itself doesn't suggest anything at all about manifest destiny, and not much about indigenous occupants. It probably says something about popular attitudes toward frontier women, but I am not sure what that is and suspect only an extremely sensitive social historian could do anything with that. |
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Subject: RE: Folk, Blues & Politics-no contradiction From: DougR Date: 29 Sep 01 - 12:10 AM Jeeze, guys, are you putting us on? It's a song! Somebody wrote it, sang it (probably) people liked it and they kept singing it! It's just a song that tells a story. DougR |
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Subject: RE: Folk, Blues & Politics-no contradiction From: blt Date: 03 Oct 01 - 03:54 AM And stories have a political context, which the performer and the audience have the opportunity to imagine, interpret, dream up, ignore, exaggerate, forget, dismiss, adore, imitate, etc., etc. I think it's called the folk process. Sometimes I think we would debate whether water is wet, just for the spirit of argument--not that I'm arguing about that, however. Meaning, sometimes, is important. Sneaking the meaning into metaphors, images, between the lines is not just a speechwriter's passive-aggressive habit--rather, it's a time-honored tradition that has an active life in the present. However, there's no rule that I know of that demands that the meaning be dug up and presented as the only truth around, that's the beauty of it, IMHO--maybe she is simply Sweet Betsy from Pike, there's nothing wrong with that. However, maybe she's a woman who was abused by the polygamous practices of a Mormon patriarch and this was the only way to speak about that particular history. That is important, even if it matters to only a few, or is understood that way by only a few. This is truly what I absolutely love about folk music--it's chameleon nature and ability to forgive. blt |
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