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BS: Flag Burning At Amherst
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Subject: Flag Burning At Amherst From: Troll Date: 19 Oct 01 - 05:19 PM Here's a bit of news that might provoke some dialog. Friday, October 19, 2001 By PATRICK JOHNSON AMHERST — Amherst College students were stunned moments after a pro-America rally involving more than 100 people ended yesterday when several protesters emerged from the crowd to set fire to a U.S. flag. As the sounds of "God Bless America" continued through the public address system in front of the Keefe Campus Center, as many as 10 demonstrators doused two flags with lighter fluid and set them on fire. Five members of the group then spread a larger flag on the ground and stood on it while chanting "This flag doesn't represent me; this flag doesn't represent us." The crowd of more than 100 people, mostly Amherst College students who moments before rallied around the flag, stood in stunned silence as the same flag was desecrated. "This is really upsetting to me," said Christopher Palacios, a sophomore from Miami. Palacios, who said his parents fled Cuba in the 1960s to escape Fidel Castro, said, "It makes me sick when American kids say the American flag scares them." The pro-America rally yesterday was organized by a new student group called Amherst Assembly for Patriotism. The group formed in response to peace rallies at each of the Five Colleges in recent weeks as well as the controversial decision by the town of Amherst to limit flag displays downtown. "Amherst is 25 square miles surrounded by reality," said Theodore Hertzberg, a sophomore from Long Island. "I'm relieved the rest of the country does not feel the same way." The crowd had just finished a group recitation of the Pledge of Allegiance and was beginning to disperse when as many as 10 protesters came forward. Most of those protesting the flag declined to be interviewed. One who did, 19-year-old Dan Griffin of Minneapolis, Minn., said the protest sought to show that the United States is responsible for much of the pain and suffering in the world. The United States has helped continue a spree of genocide that dates back to Columbus in 1492, he said. "How people take it is how they take it," he said. Griffin identified himself as a student but declined to say at which college. He said the others are from different area colleges but would not say which. Hampshire College officials confirmed a student named Dan Griffin is registered. The University of Massachusetts records show a Daniel Griffin was enrolled but he withdrew at the start of the semester. Michael Flood, co-founder of the Amherst Assembly for Patriotism, said he found the actions of the protesters to be inappropriate, especially since he suspects none of them are from Amherst College. "I believe they have a right to burn the flag, but this is inappropriate," he said. Sophomore Nick Echelbarger from Seattle said the burning was free speech of the lowest form. "It doesn't make a point. It's just poor taste," he said.
Should the flag praisers have clobbered the flag burners and if not, why not. troll
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag Burning At Amherst From: sophocleese Date: 19 Oct 01 - 05:49 PM What does holding a rally for Patriotism have to do with responding to Peace rallies? Why are the two things, Peace and Patriotism, being placed in oppositon? Who is placing them there? What aspect of the symbol is being attacked when they burn the flag? How is the symbol being used to make it open to such attack? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag Burning At Amherst From: Troll Date: 19 Oct 01 - 06:12 PM Knowing how the peace rallies here were conducted, most of the time was spent ranting about what a horrible monster the US was and how much we deserved the WTC Atrocity and how much more heavenly retribution we were bringing down upon our heads by bombing peaceful civilians etc. etc. That attitude, in and of itself would place "Peace" as the cemonstrators define it in direct opposition to "Patriotism" as the Amherst Assembly for Patriotism defines it. I don't know for a fact, of course, that this is what happened, but judging from what's happened locally and what I have read on the internet news sites, I think that it is a likely senario. In this case, the aspect of the symbol that was being attacked when they burned the flag was the symbol of the flag as representing their country and, by extension, them. Their very words reinforce this; "This flag doesn't represent me..." How was the symbol being used to make it open to such an attack? In two ways. First, the flag was and is being used to symbolize actions that they (the burners) oppose. Second, the flag -which they had been denigrating as the symbol of actions to which they were opposed- was being shown honor and respect. Apparently they didn't like that. troll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag Burning At Amherst From: sophocleese Date: 19 Oct 01 - 06:27 PM Well Troll a fair number of people in and outside the US think that to some extent US actions have helped to create the terrorists that took out the WTC and bits of the Pentagon. Decisions on what actions to take are being made rather quickly, it has only been a little over a month since it happened, and your president has stated "If you're not with us you're against us," which doesn't lead easily to democratic debate. Why should stating your dissatisfaction with this state of affairs publicly be construed as unpatriotic in a democratic society? If the symbol of the flag is taken over by one group who claim to represent everybody within a country, saying "Well no actually it doesn't represent me." is a reasonable response. I'm not a fan of vandalism generally so I cannot say that burning the flag was a wonderful thing to do, but flying the flag in opposition to a peace rally isn't intelligent either and rather mixes messages. Was there any violence at any of the peace rallies? If so who started it? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag Burning At Amherst From: GUEST,guest Date: 19 Oct 01 - 06:47 PM I want a flag for the human race. Flags are only tribal symbols. Tribes fight. Let's move ourselves forward. get that photo of the Earth in space and study it for a while. Where are the borders? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag Burning At Amherst From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 19 Oct 01 - 06:58 PM Did they bring their own flag along to burn it or did the burn a flag belonging to someone else?
Sadly enough, maybe the only time a flag really represents a whole country is when it is flying at half mast. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag Burning At Amherst From: katlaughing Date: 19 Oct 01 - 09:08 PM I can relate to the protesters who said this flag does not represent them. I've been struggling with this for the past month. On one hand we have super patriots, then the ones who put a sticker on their car and call it good, then some who do not fly any flag. I know this is not true of Mudcatters in general, but the general populace strikes me as paying lip service to patriotism; many when questioned really don't know much about Afghanistan and its peoples nor the situation in the Middle East. I am sorry to be generalising, but it is what I see on the street, in the news, etc. They seem to running high on emotions of "kill the bastard" "bomb the hell outta them" etc. without much thought for the consequences. I was telling Rog tonight I've been feeling badly, feeling as though I am of no nation. I don't "feel" American. If I had to choose what country I might "feel" like, it would have to be Canada or the UK. I feel disassociated from those who wave the flag and carry on rallies; I feel some guilt about this, then I get angry at feeling a pervasive coercion through the media and society to fly the flag or be one of "them" a pariah. As Sophocleese pointed out, Bush didn't leave much for democratic process when he made he famous "yer agin us or wid us" statement. I used to have a quote which I cannot find about no woman truly being a citizen of any country, rather she was a citizen of the world. I am feeling more and more that way. I appreciate my position in the US and the freedoms I have, but I think it is important to look beyond that citizenship and work for compassion and peace among all of the Earth's denizens. I don't hate our flag, I don't want to burn it. I have one my grandma bought me, which I treasure, but it seems like a symbol of the past and I would see us create a new one. In the meantime, I will fly my Earth Flag and agree with Socrates when he said, "I am a citizen of the world." Tear it apart all you want fellahs. There is no black and white, lots of gray abounds. kat
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag Burning At Amherst From: GUEST,Whistle and Bagpipes Date: 19 Oct 01 - 09:43 PM Kat - are we supposed to take the attacks and just lay down and die and be the patsy of the world? Our military is a voluntary one who know the risks involved when they sign up. This is one of those risks. War is never a good thing but sometimes it is the only way. Sitting on the sidelines will do nothing. Some say that our actions will further the attacks on us - well so will sitting idly by and slapping them verbally on the wrist. Time for action is now! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag Burning At Amherst From: catspaw49 Date: 19 Oct 01 - 10:06 PM Hey W&B.......Look, there are a lot of options, aggressive options, to stop this without dropping bombs. I have no doubt that we are going to be involved in a killing war here and bombs will be part of it. But we're not at war with a country! This is a little different to say the least. Strangling them economically, politically, and even religiously, all need to be pursued far more aggressively than we are now doing it. "Winning of hearts and minds" has never really been our forte, but it needs to be now and especially if we're going to bomb their asses! I'd like to have seen a lot more effort there before we started the bombing campaign. Ta' hell with it......I'm through arguing about it. Yeah, they gotta' be stopped. Yeah, it's gonna' get dirty. Yeah, innocent folks are gonna' die. But geeziz, couldn't we just work and think a bit harder before we reduce rubble to smaller rubble? Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag Burning At Amherst From: GUEST,Whistle and Bagpipes Date: 19 Oct 01 - 10:12 PM Spaw- Did they try to do the same with us before reducing the WTC to ashes? No they didn't. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag Burning At Amherst From: GUEST Date: 19 Oct 01 - 10:17 PM I doubt the Afghan citizenry volunteered to be bombed, nor did they "sign up" to support the Taliban, the Northern Alliance, the Russians or the Americans. kat--as to the women, have you heard of the secular organization for Afghan women--RAWA, The Revolutionary Association of the Women of Afghanistan, which opposes both the Taliban and the Northern Alliance as vilent, lawless, misogynistic and antidemocratic? There is a group which is even more marginalized than those of us "matriots" who feel isolated in a sea of flags. And speaking of the sea of flags--try flying some alternative flags. There are the beautiful Tibetan prayer flags (from www.northernsun.com), or the peace flag (from www.peaceflags.org) or the earth flag (www.earthflag.net). I find that when I feel isolated, reaching out to others in need really helps me and them--a real win/win situation! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag Burning At Amherst From: toadfrog Date: 19 Oct 01 - 10:18 PM Hey GUEST, you are missing the point. Kat is saying she is put off by a lot of ostentatious super-patriotism. I can relate to that. That is not necessarily taking a position about whether military force should be used. I have never burned a flag, and I won't. But one thing that might make me feel burning is a big mob of bubbahs yelling patriotic slogans and blaring God Bless America over the loudspeakers - for no particular purpose, as it doesn't much help the troops. And troll, just one point. If you want people to read your stuff, don't double-or-triple space it so it spreads all over the place like that; it is extremely inconsiderate to prospective readers. I can't and won't read stuff that's formatted like that, and I can't understand why all you politicos do it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag Burning At Amherst From: GUEST Date: 19 Oct 01 - 10:18 PM I forgot to give the address for making donations to RAWA: www.rawa.org |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag Burning At Amherst From: GUEST Date: 19 Oct 01 - 10:22 PM Toadfrog, I apologize to kat if I misinterpreted her post. But I think I'll leave it to her to tell me that, if you don't mind. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag Burning At Amherst From: katlaughing Date: 19 Oct 01 - 10:31 PM GUEST, thank you, you have understood some of what I was trying to say and I love the term "matriot" and shall use it to identify myself from now on. Yes, I am familiar with RAWA. My apologies to those of who have already followed this link before, but GUEST, here is what I said about RAWA and the whole Taliban thing a few years ago: (Link removed due to website disappearing, 2007) A Mind-full Spoken: Murderous Oppression Continues in Afghanistan. I have Tibetan prayer flags which wore out. I will order some more, tonight. Thanks for the reminder. I also used to have an earth flag and peace flag. Good, good suggestions, thank you very much. Toadfrog, that was some of my point, too, thanks. As for how Troll posts: many find it difficult to have long paragraphs to read with no breaks and I, for one, usually skip over them. So, I'd rather have too may breaks and more speces than not; it's easier on the eyes.:-) kat |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag Burning At Amherst From: SeanM Date: 20 Oct 01 - 12:29 AM Given the way things have gone lately, I identify more with the burners than the bubbas. I don't want to be identified with what I see and hear happening around me, let alone with what I read about that's planned for Afghanistan. It alarms me to read that Bush is now stating that this is to be a "long war", and that we're in it until "all terrorism" is destroyed. I've said it before, and I'll say it again - that is a clearly dangerous statement. Whose definition of terrorists? By the Taliban's definition, WE'RE now the terrorists. By our own definition, the CIA has been, as well as other less savory branches of our own government. I don't foresee Patriot bombardment of Langley, VA at any future point. Even without THOSE areas, the question expands - do we take on the IRA? THEY have MANY times in the past engaged in activities that have been termed 'terrorist'. For that much, so have the other side. And hey - look at this! There are TONS of people living in the US who support BOTH sides in that conflict. Do we attack the Israelis for assassinating Palestinian figures? Do we attack the Palestinians for car bombing and hostage taking? How about that group of Muslim 'guerillas' up in the mountains in the Phillipines? I've noticed that the official term for them is now 'terrorist' too. How about Woody Harrelson? He's announced support for 'ecoterrorists'. How about the groups themselves? This is without even considering the aspects of the IMMEDIATE war. CIA Executive Director A.B. "Buzzy" Krongard is quoted in today's paper as saying: "The war will be won in large measure by forces you do not know about, in actions you will not see and in ways you may not want to know about. But we will prevail." Wasn't part of the reason of going into this that such methods of 'warfare' were absolutely unacceptable? Are they only acceptable when WE use them? I fear this is the case - we've already condemned Israeli assassinations, while sending our own special forces in for 'get Bin Laden' missions. I don't buy into the entire "Evil US, no donut" issue. I personally feel that we're (as a nation) targets not because we're evil babyeating mutants, but because we've made ourselves BIG targets by simply having better lives than some 95% of the rest of the world. Jealousy can be a powerful motivator, and when someone comes up and tells you "the evil US people made you live in this bombed out shell, caused the war that took your husband and children away from you, has kept you from getting anything to make your life better, and you can get money by helping us stop them"... well, it's not that hard to see why a lot of people agree. True or not, deserved or not, the US is a scapegoat for a lot of agression and evil around the world. M |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag Burning At Amherst From: GUEST,Whistle and Bagpipes Date: 20 Oct 01 - 12:44 AM Sean - rather long winded and your arguments are weak. The IRA and all those other suggestions you made have not made deliberate attacks on the US. So why would we chase down the IRA or attack Isreal? Come on. Its OK for other countries around the world to fight back for themselves but oh no not the US? Gimme a break. We didn't go out looking for this war - it was brought to us loud and clear. Why don't you see that instead of hiding behind weak arguments that you rip out of a newspaper editorial column? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag Burning At Amherst From: SeanM Date: 20 Oct 01 - 01:02 AM Dear Guest - According to Bush, this is a war on ALL TERRORISM. He's stated we're in this until ALL TERRORISM is DESTROYED. And as to my local editorial column, lately it's been advising that I need to "react, not think", that "civil liberties need to be surrendered in deference to Homeland Security" and other frightening concepts. And true, the IRA has not made direct attacks on the US. But it HAS made attacks on the UK - one of the partners in our 'coalition'. Are we just after Bin Laden, and are waving "get all terrorists" in an attempt to cover basic retribution? Or are we really after 'all terrorists' and the truly bloody can of worms that entails? M |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag Burning At Amherst From: Peg Date: 20 Oct 01 - 01:10 AM I used to live in Amherst. The Five College area is a hotbed of political competition. One young man immolated himself on Amherst Common (a short distance from where this flag burning happened) in protest of the Persian Gulf war. He died. Young Republicans infiltrated UMASS Amherst for years during the Reagan administration; they were little more than a bunch of spoiled, homophobic, jack-booted thugs. UMASS is also known for its liberal student acivities; it was the site of the first Women's Studies program in the US. It also had a very active animal rights organization when I was there. But a good deal of the liberal political activities often rang hollow; coming as they did from rich young white kids who often did not understand the sorts of oppression they were complaining about. I think it is possible the flag burners were as likely to be trouble makers as anything else; Amherst is the sort of place these things happen. I believe flag burning falls under the First Amendment. But I think such a statement should be reserved for very special occasions. These days, I think choosing not to wear or wave one may be saying more than burning one.
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag Burning At Amherst From: GUEST,Whistle and Bagpipes Date: 20 Oct 01 - 06:56 AM Well hopefully we ARE going after all terrorists. It's not right to let them exist and take away people's sense of security anywhere in the world. I just don't understand those who would prefer to just sit back and let it happen. How many innocents must die before we do something about it? How many? Dylan was very correct in his lyrics. How many is it gonna take before poeple wake up and realize what's happening - just because it isn't directly in your own backyard doesn't mean it's right. It's time for action. Evil should not be allowed to exist and it's time to fight back because they've certainly done a number on the world for a long time now - It's up to us to take it back. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag Burning At Amherst From: Ferret Date: 20 Oct 01 - 07:06 AM Just remember in the words of the Duke of Wellington after the battel of Waterloo "There is nothing worse than a defeat, Except a victoy!". And war is hell, if some times a necessary Hell. it is very easy to make a lot of fuss for or against but in the end you need calm cold and calculated action to win. Some times the best way to win is not to fight, and some times to fight. but jingoism mixed with patriotism and Xenophobia is a very dangerous combination, so take heed. All the best ferret |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag Burning At Amherst From: GUEST,Butch Date: 20 Oct 01 - 07:45 AM Under many of you, millions more would have died under NAZI rule! When good people stand by and let evil people win, then innocents die. To say that we "deserve" the WTC being blown up is like saying that a woman who is of less than good character "deserves" to be raped! If you don't "feel" American then you have failed to see all that this country offers you in the ways of freedom. No we are not a perfect country and yes we have done some terrible things. Name me a country that has not! We are one of the most sought after countries in the world. More flock to us than any other country. Maybe we should learn from them what we have been blinded to. We as a nation can never become blind to our faults, but neither can we become blind to our greatness. Self loathing is a dangerous thing. If you don't like America now, try letting those who hate it run the place. You will like it much less! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag Burning At Amherst From: Mike Byers Date: 20 Oct 01 - 08:15 AM I sure can understand Kat's feelings, even though I'm an old military type. I figure we've got plenty of room in this country for different ideas; in fact, we need these different ideas if we're going to react to terrible events with some sort of common sense and balance and, in the end, make things better than they are. Isn't this the goal? My own thought is that working to reduce terrorism is a worthy goal, but we've got to include working on social and economic problems that aid terrorism in this. Sure, this will be hard, and will probably never be entirely successful. But I believe that trying is necessary You're part of America, Kat--a mighty important part, too. By thinking the way you do, you aid in keeping a balanced view and help to counteract foolish ideas. You hang in there: that's an order! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag Burning At Amherst From: RichM Date: 20 Oct 01 - 09:03 AM Please, if you have a problem supporting your own government and flag in the US, don't come to Canada. You wouldn't feel comfortable here, blaming the US for the actions of murderers. Most Canadians hold the September 11 terrorists as responsible for their actions. If someone murdered your neighbor, would you excuse them on the basis that the murderer's upbringing was responsible?
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag Burning At Amherst From: katlaughing Date: 20 Oct 01 - 11:39 AM You all are putting words into my mouths, as least Guest, Butch and Rich M, are. I never said I didn't like America. Please re-read my statement. I said I didn't feel as though I American. I don't feel as though I am of any country. And, I didn't say I was moving to Canada, either. RichM, I never said I do not hold the terrorists responsible for 9-11. I most certainly do. I think I am trying to think outside the boxes and would encourage others to do also try it. Mike Byers, thank for understanding. You put it a lot better than I did. I notice the Buddhists have a new bumper sticker, I think I will get, "Honk if you don't exist." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Flag Burning At Amherst From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 20 Oct 01 - 04:43 PM People keep on setting up Aunt Sallies, and then heaving rocks at them.
Or rather, they don't do that, because it wouldn't matter too much because you can't hurt an Aunt Sally. What they do is to identify someone who has a different point of view to them and then load on them a lot of views they haven't expressed and don't have, and tear into them for it.
If you can find someone who says that the people who were murdered on September 11th deserved what you've got, go after them for saying it. And so forth.
If someone says the actions of the United States contributed to what happened, that just is not the same as saying that what happened was justified, or just deserts or anything.
Imagine someone who leaves their car out parked on the street with the door unlocked, and the keys on the dashboard. And someone takes the car and drives off and runs over the car owner's son and kills him.
The blame for what happened rests with the one who stole the car and killed the son. But the owner has contributed to what happened, and is going to know that.
That's just an analogy, and not a close analogy - it's just mean to get across the point that looking for contributory factors and explanations is nothing to do with making excuses for or justifying murder. But it is to do with trying to cut down the chances of it happening again.
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