Celtic Roots- Southern Mts. VS Northeast

Subject: Celtic Roots- Southern Mts. VS Northeast
From: Janie
Date: 23 Oct 01 - 09:56 PM

At the Getaway I kept looking for what I call "Old Time" music. (Was hoping to hear my fiddlin' sis jam with some people.) People would tell us that the old time music was happening in the TV room. We went, but didn't hear what we call old time music. And this was suprising to me. After all, us folks from the mountains sing and play "old time" music, so it must be folk music. In addition, the revival of what I always have called old time music came about as a result of the commercialized 50's and early 60's folk groups. And if you go back far enough, the roots of my "old time" music are celtic, and there was certainly lots of celtic music.

Then I realized that the vast majority of the wonderful folks at the Getaway were from the Northeast and the Atlantic Seaboard. I don't think I met anyone else there who was from the Southern Appalachians, or from the South, period. (Not surprising, given the location of the gathering.) The experience of the Irish immigrants who came to the urban Northeast during the 19th century was very different, and much more recent, than those immigrants from the British Isles, particularly the Scots-Irish, who came as farmers and indentured servants in the 17th and 18th centuries. It was this earlier wave of immigrants who moved into and up through the Appalachians, where we have been quite isolated until relatively recent times, and where our own style of music evolved from those celtic roots. And so, we have our mountain tradition which is more important to us to preserve than the orginal celtic tradition from which our music arose.

Would love to hear the thoughts of others about this.

Subject: RE: BS: Celtic Roots- Southern Mts. VS Northeast
From: Robin2
Date: 23 Oct 01 - 10:08 PM

Janie,

Interesting question and one I would like to hear other's opinions on.

Just a personal observation I have noticed; "oldtime" often is a discription used in different areas for the "root" music of that area. What a northern player calls "oldtime" may not be the same music I call "Oldtime" in my native Kentucky. There are very strong regional "oldtime" sounds, and "southern oldtime" music is one of those.

Would love to hear other musicians comments on this.

Robin

Subject: RE: BS: Celtic Roots- Southern Mts. VS Northeast
From: Janie
Date: 23 Oct 01 - 11:07 PM

Robin,

I suppose what I call old time music could more accurately be called mountain string band and/or mountain song music. While the celtic roots are obvious in alot of it, my sister (who plays fiddle) notes that the Hammond family plays what could be called mountain fiddle music. She does not hear a celtic influence in their music. (sure wish she would sign on to this thread.) I am not familiar enough with them to know. Janie

Subject: RE: BS: Celtic Roots- Southern Mts. VS Northeast
From: GUEST,chrisj
Date: 23 Oct 01 - 11:08 PM

Janie, it would be interesting to get a short list of a few of your favourite exponents of "Old Time" music of the Southern Appalachians and their songs (past and/or present), for non-experts like myself please.

Subject: RE: BS: Celtic Roots- Southern Mts. VS Northeast
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 23 Oct 01 - 11:34 PM

We really need some input from kytrad (Jean Ritchie). I'll PM her. It may be a few days before she's near a computer.

For those unfamiliar with her credentials, just do a quick net search. (Jean/ Ritchie/ biography)

Subject: RE: BS: Celtic Roots- Southern Mts. VS Northeast
From: Janie
Date: 24 Oct 01 - 01:13 AM

Chrisj,

I am no expert, I just happen to have always lived in the mountains and foothills of the southern Appalachians. When I think of "old time" I think of people like John & David Morris, Jean Ritchie (Now there is an expert, and I hope she comments) Glen Smith, early Ralph Stanley, Bobby Taylor, Hazel Dickens, Nimrod Workman, the Bing Brothers, Lee Triplett, Joe Dobbs, Alan Freeman. Most of these are WV musicians cuz that where I originally hail from, and their music varies alot, from fiddle tunes, string bands, ballad singers, etc. The celtic roots are probably most transparent in the ballad singers but there are a lot of hornpipes, etc. in the fiddle music. Now WV also got a good mix of mid and eastern Europeans along with greater African-American influence from about the turn of the century until close to WWII, especially in the coalfields, and I this has to have affected the music of our particular microregion also.

Are there any music anthropologists mudcatters who could shed some light here?

Subject: RE: BS: Celtic Roots- Southern Mts. VS Northeast
From: Janie
Date: 24 Oct 01 - 12:18 PM

Well shut my mouth! I am either a lot smarter or a lot dumber than I thought. By pure chance a friend brought me a copy of Alan Lomax's "The Folk Songs of North America" this a.m. and his intro's to Songs of the North and and Songs of the Southern Mountains and Backwoods pretty well cover my thoughts and questions. Next time I guess I should do some research first instead of starting a "spam" thread. Bye.

Subject: RE: BS: Celtic Roots- Southern Mts. VS Northeast
From: kytrad (Jean Ritchie)
Date: 24 Oct 01 - 12:50 PM

My understanding of the category, "Oldtime," when applied to folk music, refers mainly to that of the early string-bands of the 1920s and '30s, instrumental and vocal. The New Lost City Ramblers repertoire can be classed as Oldtime, as it is mainly revivals of this music. Some of the pieces were traditional, some were composed, some were outgrowths of traditional tunes/songs. My own family music goes back a step further into the past, before instruments were common (or present at all) in the Kentucky mountain communities, and its category is simply, "Tradtional." It includes BALLADS (of Scottish, Irish and English origins- and some of these had roots and variants in Scandinavia), LOVE SONGS (many of these were actually fragments taken from ballads, as was, "Who's gonna shoe your pretty little foot?"), CHILDREN'S SONGS and GAMES, HUMOROUS SONGS (e.g. Uncle Jason's "Dog in the Mushpot," "Gentle Fair Jenny," (a woman-teasing song- my Dad's category!), TOPSY-TURVY or NONSENSE songs (Hunting the Buck, Fair Nottamun Town, The Derby Ram), CHURCH SONGS ("Wondrous Love," "Jesus Grant Us All a Blessing," "I Am a Little Scholar," "Brightest and Best"-these are Old Regular Baptist hymns). Musical instruments, the dulcimer, fiddle, banjo, and guitar, came to us later, in that order. We certainly never thought of our music as Celtic, just knew that it had come down from the old folks.

These are my observations and impressions- no scholarship involved here- just living. I don't claim to be right anywhere except Knott and Perry Counties in Kentucky! But I think that in most regions of the USA, the "Oldtime" category means the music of the early stringbands- this music being a first generation, an outgrowth, of the traditional roots.

Subject: RE: BS: Celtic Roots- Southern Mts. VS Northeast
From: Fortunato
Date: 24 Oct 01 - 02:31 PM

Janie,

I was one of those people in the TV room they sent you to. My wife Susette and I play many songs of the '20s and 30's that The New Lost City's definitive work included (Jean Richie mentions above). Some of them I learned from my family in Honeyville, Va. and some I learned from recordings of Mike Seeger and Ralph Stanley, Doc Watson, etc.

BUT we played only a few of those songs and you may not have been there at that time, it was not an Oldtime jam. Mostly there was a lot of 40s-60s country music, lovely stuff, but not Oldtime. People sent you there since that was the only place Oldtime MIGHT be played. And my wife and I are singers, not banjo and fiddle players playing fiddle tunes which seem to comprise 95% of the music called Oldtime at Galax and Mt. Airy today. Next time ask for us, Chance (Fortunato) & Susette.

Subject: RE: BS: Celtic Roots- Southern Mts. VS Northeast
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 24 Oct 01 - 03:31 PM

Can you experts out there tell me where The Carter Family and their like fit into the old v. new time music category. I'm also interested in where Hedy West comes in this hierarchy too, I booked her at a folk club I used to run in Kew many years ago, and fell in love with both her and her music, and as a Scot I could see where a lot of her songs originated.

Jock

Subject: RE: BS: Celtic Roots- Southern Mts. VS Northeast
From: Fortunato
Date: 24 Oct 01 - 03:36 PM

Mike Seeger included The Carter Family in his definitive collection of Old Time Music. I'm no expert, Jock, just a player, but I think of them as Old Time Country Music.

Hedy West I remember from many years ago, as a folk singer, I don't know what she is now.

Regards, Fortunato

Subject: RE: BS: Celtic Roots- Southern Mts. VS Northeast
From: Janie
Date: 24 Oct 01 - 07:58 PM

I too tend to think of the Carter Family as more old time country than old time mountain music. And yeh, I associate much of what I have always called old time music with the fiddle and banjo tunes. But there is also a quality of voice that I associate with old time mountain music that I also heard in some of the singers from the Getaway, even tho' the songs were different. Barry's singing voice had a tonality that really reminds me of many mountain singers (Ain't no sailors in the southern Appalachian's tho.) Listening to him sometimes took me back to hearing my grandfather sing his hymns as he worked around his yard. Kytrad, he grew up somewhere around Johnson County KY. I know he and Nannie got married in Paintsville and were born and raised somewhere around there. But I often heard them talk about his fiddle and banjo playing at beanstringings when they were courting, Probably 1913 or 14 or so. But his was a fractious family, cut off from one another so I don't know what their earliest tradition was or when or how he learned to play, and when he "got religion" in his thirties he never picked up an instrument again--church said voice was ok, instruments sinful, women in the back with their mouths shut (never ever heard Nannie even hum.) But oh, that lovely, nasal mountain voice on those hymns. Keith Whitley, when he was with Ralph Stanley, had it to. And as I recall, so do you.

So, Boston and New Hampshire are a long way from the southern mountains, and the songs are very different, but there it is, more subtle but there nontheless, in the voice of Barry Finn and some other of the New England singers. The echo of common roots from the British Isles?

Fortunato, thanks--now it makes sense. I can't quite figure out who the two of you were--so many fine voices--but next time I will definitely ask for you.

Subject: RE: BS: Celtic Roots- Southern Mts. VS Northeast
From: GUEST,chrisj
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 12:17 AM

Thanks for taking the trouble to reply Janie, I've made a few notes for future reference! The other posts are very informative too. I love finding out about real American life at 'ground level' as distinct from the bland version we usually get from TV.

I must say I'm dubious about 'Celtic' as used here in relation to traditional music. As I see it the concept of a 'Celtic' music is a product of some marketing gurus wishing to broaden the appeal of true folk music. I'm not saying that there isn't a lot of fine (and highly commercial) music produced under that label, but the term 'Celtic' is surely not to be confused with traditional Irish or Scottish music?

I have the same difficulty with the term 'British Isles' used to denote Britain (ie,England, Wales and Scotland) and Ireland. As a geographical term it has always been purely arbitrary (nomenclature as well as history is written by the winners), and could just as readily have been 'The Celtic Isles'. Linguistically and culturally these same 'Isles' were never completely one, though superficially it might apper so to a casual observer. As a political entity it was a long-term failure (Many would say an unmitigated dissaster) which went out of existance well over half a century ago but the consequences of which are only now finally 'washing through' the governmental systems.

Subject: RE: BS: Celtic Roots- Southern Mts. VS Northeast
From: GUEST,Fortunato at home for a rest
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 09:25 AM

Kytrad and Janie,

I've been thinking about this topic a lot lately as Susette and I build our repertoire of Oldtime Country Music.

I'd like to know if the Carter Family, prior to recording, sounded closer to Traditional. In other words, when they recorded "I have no one to love me", their version of "The Sailor Boy" in 1928, did they change their vocal style to be more commercially acceptable? Is that when Traditional transitioned to Old Time Country? When recorded? When Ralph Peer had AP "work over old songs", as stated in Mike Seeger's "Thoughts on Old-Time Music", did he introduce change in the vocal styles as well as melodies and structure?

Kytrad, if you're reading this, when you sing a song associated with the Carter Family, do you rearrange it vocally to reflect your Traditional style?

Regards, Chance Shiver

Subject: RE: BS: Celtic Roots- Southern Mts. VS Northeast
From: kytrad (Jean Ritchie)
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 04:26 PM

Chance- and all: Janette Carter once told me that when Sara and A.P. were young, they got stranded pretty far from home, and hadn't a penny between them. Finally they gathered some people around them and sang some songs, and got just enough coins to get them home. Can't recall the details- I'd have to get up with Janette again- but according to her, this was when they decided to sing for a living! But yes, I do think that those first radio shows, and recording companies, when they began, started mountian music onto its "next step," Traditional (family and community-oriented) became the parent of Oldtime. Accompanying the songs with instruments made a profound change in the sound, interpretation and style, the SHOWY-NESS of the old music. Radio and records greatly widened the audience and made competiveness in performance much more important and recognizable. Family songs were updated-rewritten and smoothed out. Money became a motive and the acts became more flashy. Old folks hated the new music and pronounced it sinful and a ruination of the young. So what else is new?

I sing a Carter Family song however I learnt it- everyone does a song a bit differently than everyone else- yes? I suppose that the very timbre of my own voice gives a Carter Family song a sort of Ritchie sound, but I do not consciously try to change it. Doc Watson taught me, "The Storms Are on the Ocean," to sing as a duet with him at our longago double-bill at The Ashgrove in L.A. (It was Jean Ritchie and Clarence Ashley & Band; a year or so before Doc went solo). I loved that song, and still sing it although I miss Doc's fine harmony on the chorus. And I guess my singing of it now sounds little like the Carters! Jean