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$15billion to rebuild Afghanistan
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Subject: $15billion to rebuild Afghanistan From: GUEST,Mikey joe Date: 15 Jan 02 - 12:21 PM From this report "http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/breaking/2002/0115/breaking63.htm"
Does anyone know if the US and the UK going to foot the majority of this bill???
Mj
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Subject: RE: $15billion to rebuild Afghanistan From: DougR Date: 15 Jan 02 - 12:24 PM I don't know for sure, Mj, but I would assume so. I don't know where else it would come from. DougR |
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Subject: RE: $15billion to rebuild Afghanistan From: kendall Date: 15 Jan 02 - 01:00 PM We might not have this problem if we hadn't abandoned them before. |
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Subject: RE: $15billion to rebuild Afghanistan From: GUEST Date: 15 Jan 02 - 01:07 PM Well, as U.S. Sen. Evrett Dirksen (1896–1969) once quipped, “A few billion here, a few billion there, before long it can add up to real money.” A business with annual revenues of fifteen thousand million US dollars wouldn't even make it into the Fortune top 100 companies. Sun Microsystems has revenues right around that level. - Mark |
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Subject: RE: $15billion to rebuild Afghanistan From: NicoleC Date: 15 Jan 02 - 01:15 PM Probably. Japan is talking about coughing up $500 million, and the World Bank is approaching 50 donor countries, but you can bet the US will foot the lions share. I can only hope that the $15b is actually for rebuilding infrastructure, and not the usual policy of arming petty dictatorships to the teeth and calling it "foreign aid." |
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Subject: RE: $15billion to rebuild Afghanistan From: John Gray Date: 15 Jan 02 - 01:33 PM It's a country of Islamic faith. Wonder how much the multi-sqillionaire sheiks from the oil-rich countries donate. JG/FME. |
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Subject: RE: $15billion to rebuild Afghanistan From: Midchuck Date: 15 Jan 02 - 02:14 PM Well, if it isn't enough, they can come back and knock over the Empire State Building and maybe the Washington Monument, and we'll come up with another $10 billion.... Peter. |
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Subject: RE: $15billion to rebuild Afghanistan From: GUEST Date: 15 Jan 02 - 02:31 PM Personally, I don't blame the people of Afghanistan for the terrorist attacks and I don't think our government does either. Neither do I blame the people of the U.S. for the Bay of Pigs. I was in Chicago about a year ago visiting the Art Institute. They had a photo essay on Afghanistan in the lower level and it was plain that Afghanistan had a long way to go to just to achieve a third world standard of living. It was just unbelievable, the extent of the devastation those people have seen as a result of the Taliban and all the warring of the last twenty years. And that was before the war on terrorism. Let's see... fifteen thousand million divided by 100 million or so households... they can have my $150. - Mark |
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Subject: RE: $15billion to rebuild Afghanistan From: DougR Date: 15 Jan 02 - 03:10 PM Yep, Mark, I agree. They can have mine too. Kendall, you old Salt! We agree on something! If we hadn't abandoned them we might not be in this whole terrorist mess we're in now. But we did. DougR |
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Subject: RE: $15billion to rebuild Afghanistan From: 53 Date: 15 Jan 02 - 03:14 PM let them rebuild their own country, it seems that when a war breaks out the victor always has to pay back the loser for losing the war,it doesn't make any sense to me. since all the problems the usa has right now. BOB |
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Subject: RE: $15billion to rebuild Afghanistan From: 53 Date: 15 Jan 02 - 03:16 PM remember what patton said, war is hell. |
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Subject: RE: $15billion to rebuild Afghanistan From: Mikey joe Date: 15 Jan 02 - 04:07 PM Are you really serious 53?? What a stupid comment. You want the Afghan people to come up with $15 billion to rebuild the hospitals schools and houses bombed by that prick Bush. Come off it for fuck sake!!
Mj |
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Subject: RE: $15billion to rebuild Afghanistan From: 53 Date: 15 Jan 02 - 04:14 PM do you think if our country was blown the hell apart that the country that did it would rebuild it, you must be a stupid fuck. BOB hell no they wouldnt, it would be our baby , so get real whoever the hell you are. |
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Subject: RE: $15billion to rebuild Afghanistan From: GUEST,Amy Mae Date: 15 Jan 02 - 04:19 PM Mikey Joe, are you serious? Do you really think they had hospitals, schools and houses before we bombed them? They did not. The Taliban saw to that. I am not saying that we shouldn't go in and help them out, but if you think they had any standard of living before the bombing, you are misinformed. Does your mother know that you use those dirty words? Kids read this site. Time for you to clean up your language. |
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Subject: RE: $15billion to rebuild Afghanistan From: DougR Date: 15 Jan 02 - 05:01 PM I guess we disagree on this one, Bob. I won't join MJ in his tirade against you, I just disagree. I think we had a lot to do with the Taliban being established in the first place, and our bombing is certainly responsibile for much of the damage the country has suffered. The Russians did their share too. If you will recall, the U. S. had a major role in the rebuilding of Europe after WW2, and I think we have to help Afghanstan too. Afghanstan has no money, and they require funds to establish a infrastructure, build schools, hospitals, and other things we take for granted her in the U. S. Just my opinion, of course. DougR |
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Subject: RE: $15billion to rebuild Afghanistan From: kendall Date: 15 Jan 02 - 05:11 PM Let me speak like a conservative for a bit here, It is cheaper to help them than to bomb them. Are any of you "Screw them" types Christians? |
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Subject: RE: $15billion to rebuild Afghanistan From: Steve in Idaho Date: 15 Jan 02 - 05:18 PM They can have my $150.00 also. Since we spent something like 300 Trillion in Europe after the war I think we are getting a bargain here. And if we don't invest in building, that would come under the heading of peace I believe, we will certainly get to revisit this scene at a later date. And most likely with much more severe consequences. Patton may have said war is hell. I personnaly know that it is. But of all the awards I received for my service the little one for helping the farmers ranks up there with my Combat Action Ribbon. And it is from helping the farmers and merchants that we will be able to engage in meaningful dialogue with the country to establish some permanent positive memories. And I agree that potty mouths don't solve anything - they contribute to the continuing misunderstandings between folks with the same idea - to find some form of lasting peace in this crazy world. I think folks need to do some apologizing for their words when they unjustifiably utter them in an angry accusatory manner. Just my $00.02 worth. But then I think that if one commits a crime one ought to be honest about it and plead guilty. Talk about anachronistic and ideologically out of step with the universe! Steve |
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Subject: RE: $15billion to rebuild Afghanistan From: GUEST,Mark Clark (via public proxy) Date: 15 Jan 02 - 05:27 PM I'm not sure we did very much to damage their infrastructure by bombing. Most of the bombing, as reported anyway, has been against training camps and hide-outs. Their infrastructure, as guest Amy Mae pointed out, was history long before we started bombing. Rebuilding Afghanistan is simply self preservation. Unless we're prepared to inflict genocide upon them, we'd better help them become productive friends, not pissed-off enemies. And I'm not just talking about their government, I'm talking about the general population as well. I started a thread over here a while ago. You might find that it relates to this discussion as well. - Mark |
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Subject: RE: $15billion to rebuild Afghanistan From: DougR Date: 15 Jan 02 - 06:00 PM Mark: I suspect you are right about where the damage was done, and I would hope none of the money would go to re-build the caves and camps, etc. DougR |
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Subject: RE: $15billion to rebuild Afghanistan From: catspaw49 Date: 15 Jan 02 - 06:06 PM Why not just relocate them all to say, Montana or Alberta or somewhere............Have to be cheaper..... Spaw (it's just a joke folks) |
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Subject: RE: $15billion to rebuild Afghanistan From: 53 Date: 15 Jan 02 - 06:22 PM that's a great answer spaw, lets just transport the whole country to the middle of the pacific ocean. BOB |
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Subject: RE: $15billion to rebuild Afghanistan From: Lepus Rex Date: 15 Jan 02 - 07:12 PM "Well, if it isn't enough, they can come back and knock over the Empire State Building and maybe the Washington Monument, and we'll come up with another $10 billion...." ---Midchuck "They," Midchuck? The Afghan people? Or "sand-niggers," "dune-coons," and "falafel-eating camel-jockeys" in general? Are you truly that ignorant? For fuck's sake, if you aren't sterile now, I hope you are soon. ---Lepus Rex |
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Subject: RE: $15billion to rebuild Afghanistan From: Lepus Rex Date: 15 Jan 02 - 07:13 PM Oh, and you too, 53. I missed your garbage the first time around. Sorry. Rot in Hell, bitch. :) ---Lepus Rex |
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Subject: RE: $15billion to rebuild Afghanistan From: mack/misophist Date: 15 Jan 02 - 07:35 PM $15 billion isn't going to do the job. Wait and see. That's just the start. Duty is duty, though, and we owe them something. As someone else said, let's all pray the money goes to the right places. It's going to be very hard to do, given their tribal traditions. More than likely the honcho will do what he wants with it. |
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Subject: RE: $15billion to rebuild Afghanistan From: catspaw49 Date: 15 Jan 02 - 07:55 PM Ya' know, there are about a zillion problems with this idea, but I would love to see us spend the money while putting both Afghanis and Americans to work. Why not jointly develop a plan of what they want and jointly build it? Send our people who want to go and are otherwise unemployed and work side by side with them to rebuild whatever is needed. The money would be spent on actual needs and a lot of folks could make a buck rather than being on the dole everywhere else. Yeah, I know....never work, stupid idea, and I'll go back now and continue my talks with the Easter Bunny on sub-contracting egg deliveries. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: $15billion to rebuild Afghanistan From: kendall Date: 15 Jan 02 - 08:02 PM I thought it was General Wm T. Sherman who said, "War is hell." |
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Subject: RE: $15billion to rebuild Afghanistan From: Amos Date: 15 Jan 02 - 08:32 PM I believe that for reasons I cannot imagine, the line gained a lot of currency here and there. Maybe they know somp'n.... |
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Subject: RE: $15billion to rebuild Afghanistan From: Jack the Sailor Date: 15 Jan 02 - 08:37 PM Johnny Hart (BC), in one of his "ant" cartoons said war is heck! There is hope for us all DougR seems to get more and more liberal every day!!! It won't hurt the west to help out the Afghanis. We talk alot about how fair and democratic we are. It will do nothing but good for us to put some of our money where our mouths are. If we move ISRAEL to montana or alberta, it would solve a problem or two!!
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Subject: RE: $15billion to rebuild Afghanistan From: Midchuck Date: 15 Jan 02 - 08:43 PM "They," Midchuck? The Afghan people? Or "sand-niggers," "dune-coons," and "falafel-eating camel-jockeys" in general? Are you truly that ignorant? For fuck's sake, if you aren't sterile now, I hope you are soon. Gawd, it's funny when a "liberal" shows off his real nature! (Just about as funny as when a "conservative" does). Lepus, I envy you your certainty. May irony never cloud it in the slightest. (By the way, it's too late to hope I'm sterile. My children are grown, and they've already turned mean.) Peter. |
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Subject: RE: $15billion to rebuild Afghanistan From: 53 Date: 15 Jan 02 - 08:47 PM lepus rex, what kind of fucking name is that, you must be one of the taliban, so i'll see you in hell first bitch. BOB |
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Subject: RE: $15billion to rebuild Afghanistan From: 53 Date: 15 Jan 02 - 08:50 PM if you like them so much why don't you rebuild their fucking country so they can just turn around and blow something else up, you your head dumb ass Or is it stuck up yourass? BOB |
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Subject: RE: $15billion to rebuild Afghanistan From: 53 Date: 15 Jan 02 - 08:57 PM kendall you're right, he did say that, but general patton also used that term, and i believe it was a quote. BOB |
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Subject: RE: $15billion to rebuild Afghanistan From: Lepus Rex Date: 15 Jan 02 - 09:11 PM huh. Well, Midchuck, if that was just an dumb off-colour joke and not some kind of racist rant, then I apologise. It's something I'm touchy about. On the other hand, if I was right the first time... Well, you get the idea. :P 53... Well, obviously you ARE the subhuman fucktard that I took you for, so I'm guessing that your vile, Nazi-esque posts were sincere. But since you are either suffering from advanced senility or a severe mental disability, I'll try to ignore you, BOB, for as long as you live. Hopefully, I won't have to make that effort for long. Hopefully, your overlong white-trash existence will end when you swerve to hit an 'Eh-Rab' and crash your short-bus into a lake. But I'm patient, so rant on, bitch. :) P.S.---I love you, BOB ---Lepus Rex |
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Subject: RE: $15billion to rebuild Afghanistan From: Sorcha Date: 15 Jan 02 - 10:06 PM jeeeezzzuusss. We bomb 'em, we build 'em. Japan, Korea, Germany (twice), was there ever anything in Afghanistan to RE build?
I agree that Afghanistan needs help as a country, but why is it always US? (pun intended) Our own deficit is huge and we have our own social problems to solve, so why do we always have to try to fix other countries problems? Why does the US always have to go "fix" the rest of the world's problems? Yea, we're rich, but so is Japan...you see them fixing the World?
I can't see Afghanistan as a country now that has anything to export......or offer. Perhaps the best that could happen for it would be to be absorbed into another country, but that has been tried and didn't work. Nationalistic countries that have nothing to offer in the world market are doomed........sorry about that, but I think it is true.
I used to be a Liberal, but the older I get, the more conservative I become. I would rather see my tax dollars spent here in the US than to try to make bricks out of mud. (I expect I will get slammed for this one.....)
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Subject: RE: $15billion to rebuild Afghanistan From: DougR Date: 15 Jan 02 - 10:56 PM Hmmm. Montana? Alberta? I know, how about Wyoming! The VP could probably arrange something. Jack, don't get your hopes up. I just don't view EVERYTHING from what many might think is the conservative viewpoint. I think it has to be us, the British and the Japanese, because we are probably the only countries that have the where-withall to do it. My motives are not totally liberlesque (new word). If we don't straighten out the mess there now, we will just have to do it later and it will cost more money. DougR |
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Subject: RE: $15billion to rebuild Afghanistan From: Sorcha Date: 15 Jan 02 - 11:23 PM Wyoming at least has mineral monies to contribute...(I love liberesque!) |
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Subject: RE: $15billion to rebuild Afghanistan From: Lepus Rex Date: 15 Jan 02 - 11:25 PM Well, they've got opium... ---Lepus Rex |
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Subject: RE: $15billion to rebuild Afghanistan From: enkd Date: 16 Jan 02 - 02:35 AM Lepus Rex- I accept your apology. In general, I would suggest that in the future, you refrain from suggesting that the opinions of others are so different from your own that they should be prevented from the right of reproduction. Not only does it reek of an ignorant, defensive nature, it also levies a personal insult at a group of people that you have never met, and presumably, of which you have no opinion. "for fuck's sake"? brilliant. enkd |
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Subject: RE: $15billion to rebuild Afghanistan From: GUEST,Stavanger Bill Date: 16 Jan 02 - 03:48 AM Having read down through the above, and in the light of lessons supposedly learned from events of the twentieth century, I can only draw the conclusion that the old and oft quoted saying that those who forget the past are condemned to relive it has never been more true. $15 billion to rebuild Afghanistan - cheap at twice the price. The reparations forced on Germany at the end of the First World War, combined with the hiving off of parts of Germany to make the countries created (as a result of Woodrow Wilsons 27 points) economically viable, became root causes of the Second World War. The Marshall Plan introduced to rebuild Europe after the Second World, and the treatment of Germany and Japan on cessation of hostilities, created the prosperity and stability that enabled democracy to weather the storm of the 'Cold War'. When Russian became embroiled in Afghanistan, America, more than any other nation, with the possible exception of Pakistan, did everything it could to add to the destabilisation of Afghanistan, backing the Taliban faction to the hilt, then dropped the whole issue like a hot potato once the Russians withdrew. Immediately post 11th September, there was much mention of winning hearts and minds, that this was not a war against Islam, that the Afghani people were not the enemy. Well from some of the extremely short-sighted views expressed above there would apprear to have been a bit of a sea-change to those aforementioned statements. In 1945, Germany was the front-line of what became the Cold War and it was crucial (from the West's view point) that West Germany be shown to be a fully democratic and commercially successful country, totally rehabilitated into the community of European nations as quickly as possible. That required commitment and total engagement by three of the occupying powers - it was entirely successful. A similar approach is required in Afghanistan, and if it be America's, Britain/the European Union's lot to take the lead in contributing to this then so be it - that's the cost of going to war with a country without actually declaring war on it. Look at the cost of the campaign so far compared to the projected cost of reconstruction - it must be peanuts. Look at the rewards to be gained ideologically and politically by (the West)ensuring Afghanistan's prosperity and security - the dividend, potentialy is enormous. Like the Marshall Plan, this job simply must be done for the sake of world peace. The war declared on the 11th of September was against world terrorism - think of the propaganda harvest those terrorist groups would reap if America once again just turns it's back and walks away from Afghanistan and the problems of it's people. On the other hand, do what is required and those same groups are left out in the cold - totally marginalised. That's my tuppence worth, thanks to Mudcat for the opportunity of expressing it. Best to all, Bill. |
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Subject: RE: $15billion to rebuild Afghanistan From: PaulM Date: 16 Jan 02 - 03:52 AM Why does the US always have to go "fix" the rest of the world's problems? Yea, we're rich, but so is Japan...you see them fixing the World? Before you start making assumptions, perhaps you should read these figures:
Foreign Aid (1998 figures from the Economist 'World in Figures')
Paul | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Subject: RE: $15billion to rebuild Afghanistan From: mooman Date: 16 Jan 02 - 04:23 AM Something important is getting missed here. There are millions of perfectly innocent Afganis in a dire mess due not just to the current situation but the years of Taliban rule and the years of war before that. These people are human beings just like us. Same fears, same needs, same aspirations, whatever their ethic origin or religion. As someone said above $15 billion is peanuts in the real scheme of things and not an unusual turnover for a typical multinational company. We have a moral duty to help fellow humans in such a mess and I'd be perfectly willing to donate towards rebuilding the basic infrastructure of Afganistan myself. mooman |
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Subject: RE: $15billion to rebuild Afghanistan From: kendall Date: 16 Jan 02 - 08:52 AM As long as that "Us against them" mentality prevails there will be war, suffering and human misery. |
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Subject: RE: $15billion to rebuild Afghanistan From: Lepus Rex Date: 16 Jan 02 - 12:01 PM Well, I didn't apologise to you, enkd. Never even seen you before. But if it makes you feel better, "I am so, so, sorry, for _________, enkd." Have fun with it. ---Lepus Rex |
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Subject: RE: $15billion to rebuild Afghanistan From: NicoleC Date: 16 Jan 02 - 12:51 PM Thanks, Paul, you beat me to it. What those figures don't show is that most of the US Foreign Aid is military, when most of us think about warm blankets and water treatment plans. However, I think it's probably safe to say that the American people give as much as these other countries in *private* charitable aid. Americans always seem to be the first in line to send food and clothes to a disaster area, but when the disaster's over we're not very good at helping those who spend every day in those kinds of conditions. Sorcha -- what Afghanistan has that we want badly is land to build a big oil pipeline through from the 'Stans to Pakistan and down to the Arabian Sea. Said pipeline would cost about $2.5 billion and carry 1 million barrels of oil per day. As for the poor state of Afghanistan, both the US and Russia bear a good portion of the responsibility for that as a battle ground in the Cold War. Russia supplied one side, we the other. Hence the large number of American weapons in the hands of the Taliban, our former allies and hereos fighting against the evils of Communism. |
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Subject: RE: $15billion to rebuild Afghanistan From: 53 Date: 16 Jan 02 - 01:11 PM let everybody do what they want. i'm out of it. BOB |
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Subject: RE: $15billion to rebuild Afghanistan From: Ebbie Date: 16 Jan 02 - 01:19 PM I have sometimes wondered what Earth's people would do if another world were suddenly to come on the scene to threaten us. Would our nations come together- circle the wagons, so to speak- or would we turn on each other in the attempt to survive individually? We are all together. Until we realize that none of us can prosper until we all are safe we are an ugly family. As many above have said, taking care of each other is cost-effective, it is an investment,it pays off down the road. 53Bob, take your medicines. :) |
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Subject: RE: $15billion to rebuild Afghanistan From: GUEST,Amy Mae Date: 16 Jan 02 - 01:52 PM I'm glad to see the tide has turned, so to speak, and that everyone seems to be getting down to solving the problem instead of swearing at it. Congrats. |
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Subject: RE: $15billion to rebuild Afghanistan From: kendall Date: 16 Jan 02 - 02:31 PM Dont we get it? the conditions that exist in Afghanistan right now are the conditions that breed hate, envy and extremism. Surely it is more cost effective to treat the problem than to bomb the symptoms? We can not bomb human nature out of existence. They have reason to hate us, ok, we blew it 13 years ago, now let's do the right thing and turn it around. It reminds me of the cartoon of God at his desk, an angel comes in and God says "They are doing WHAT in my name"? |
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Subject: RE: $15billion to rebuild Afghanistan From: 53 Date: 16 Jan 02 - 03:05 PM maybe i can drain my 401k and send it to them, i'm sure they need it more than i do, or maybe icould sell myguitars, and my car to raise money to help them, if we all did that we could raise a lot more tha 15 million. BOB |
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